Vladimir Androsov

Photos in text:
Photo 1. Friends of Vladimir Androsov
Photo 2. In search of the Dyatlov group
Photo 3. Mansi skis
Photo 4. The den
Photo 5. Labaz
Photo 6. Mansi hunting labaz
Photo 7. Vladimir Androsov at a labaz, village on Malaya Toshemka, 1970s
Photo 8. An old abandoned Mansi sanctuary
Photo 9. Vasiliy Sambindalov with his son at a sacred Mansi place near Lake Turvat
Photo 10. A Mansi grave
Photo 11. Mansi graves
Photo 12. A fake Mansi sign
Photo 13. A Mansi sign
Photo 14. The last Mansi "chum" 1970s
Photo 15. Search group for a hiker lost on Lenchi-Syakhl in 1972
Photo 16. Searching for the hiker 1972
Photo 17. Vladimir Androsov and Pyotr Bahtiyarov in the area of ​​the Malaya Toshemka River
Photo 18. Roman Anyamov and Miron Bahtiyarov
Photo 19. Mansi sanctuaries
Photo 20. Mansi men 1930s
Photo 21. Mansi women's hairstyle 1959
Photo 22. Forester Ivan Dmitrievich Rempel
Photo 23. Stepan Kurikov 1961
Photo 24. At the Ilyich's base

Interview with Vladimir Aleksandrovich Androsov from Vizhay about the searchers: forester Pashin, Aleksey Cheglakov, about the Mansi and many other things concerning the Dyatlov group have been going on for a long time, since November 2011, when I met him on the Internet in one of the groups dedicated to the Dyatlov group, going on to this day (May 2012).

Vladimir turned out to be a responsive person and patiently answered all my questions, often funny for him, but he did not express irritation, but answered thoroughly and often corrected me, for which I am very grateful to him.

Vladimir currently works as a dispatcher at the Nyagan airport.

I am also grateful for the information to Vladimir Alekseevich Cheglakov, Tatyana Rempel and Nadezhda Winter.

Photos courtesy of Vladimir Androsov and the Ivdel Historical and Ethnographic Museum, thanks to Vera Aleksandrovna Belledir.

MP - Maya Piskareva, VA - Vladimir Androsov.

MP: Dear Vladimir, you are a native of Vizhay and mentioned in one of your conversations that you knew the forester Ivan Pashin well. He took part in the search for the deceased Dyatlov group. Did he tell you anything about this tragedy?

VA: Yes, indeed, Ivan Vasilyevich Pashin told me about this somewhere around 1963-1964. He knew these places very well, that's why he was involved in the search.

He said that they found the tent by the flag, covered with snow. I can't tell you the details, I was 12-13 years old, but I remember this well.

He was the first to find a guy with a girl in the forest, here under this cedar he found two bodies, a man and a woman. As he said, they were squatting. One had matches in his hands, the other dry twigs. They froze like that, fighting for their lives. Frozen, looking into each other's eyes...

MP: This changes the whole picture! The criminal case does not contain testimonies of those students who are considered to be the first to discover the bodies. They were Mihail Sharavin and Yuri Koptelov. According to their recollections, the dead guys (they were men) were lying with their heads to each other, and were covered with a blanket. In the photo you can see that one person is lying face down, and the other is lying face up.

VA: I don't want to argue. But I believe Ivan Vasilyevich Pashin!!!

MP: Vladimir, your story may be true, and the forester Pashin was the first to discover them. But the Criminal Case contains completely different testimony. Then it turns out that Pashin was at the cedar before the search party that discovered the bodies. Very interesting.

VA: Everyone who asks receives, the one who seeks finds, and the one who knocks, the door will be opened. I am saying this from memory. Of course, Maya, seek and you will find. And the case was cooked up in a way that was advantageous.

МП: Vladimir, I came across Pashin's nephew's words on the Internet that the dead guys had some unusual complexion, orange, and he said that his uncle Ivan Pashin told him about it. Did Pashin tell you anything about it?

Friends of Vladimir Androsov: Valera Plotnikov (forester Pashin's nephew), Volodya Kuznetsov (forester Kuznetsov's son), Andrey Pashin (forester Pashin's son)

VA: Nephew, this is Valera Plotnikov, my friend's brother. And my friend too. Valera is 6 years younger than me. Yes, he claims that Ivan said that the faces were a little yellowish. I don't remember that. Ivan Pashin didn't mention the complexion. I didn't interrupt him, and he did talk, but I wasn't very interested in that at the time. I was interested in the idol "Golden Woman". I told him about the woman, and he told me about his...

"The Legend of the Golden Woman", this book was written by Yuri Mihaylovich Kurochkin, back in early 1960. The book was published by the Perm Book Publishing House in 1963. I just looked at this book, it was printed by the Uralsky Rabochy printing house in Sverdlovsk.

When I read it, I was very impressed, especially since it also wrote about our region. I haven't picked it up since then. Of course, the book is fiction, but here and there there are references to famous ethnographers: K.D. Nosilov, texts by M. Mekhovsky, A. Vida, A. Jenkinson, D. Vletcher, Y. Koshelevsky, G. Novitsky and many others. References to books published before the revolution and after, in the 1930s. I want to go to Khanty-Mansiysk and dig around in museums and libraries. In short, we'll see. But the topic is very interesting.

MP: Probably everyone remembered what shocked them in those stories...

VA: Maybe there really were yellow faces. But how did they turn yellow in winter? Fuel? But that's superficial, the same snow could have washed away all the traces. Then something would have remained on the snow, on the tent, as it was located closer to the explosion.

MP: Did he sign any kind of non-disclosure agreement about investigative secrets?

VA: He didn't say anything about a non-disclosure agreement.

MP: Here is a photo of the searchers from Vizhay. Please tell us who is who in this photo?

In search of the Dyatlov group: forester Ivan Pashin, Aleksey Anyamov, Aleksey Semenovich Cheglakov.

VA: Ivan Vasilyevich Pashin is standing first on the left. He has a forester's badge on his hat. The second Mansi is Kurikov.

MP: He seems too young to be Stepan Kurikov... The Anyamovs also took part in the search. Maybe one of the Anyamovs?

VA: Maybe.

The third is Aleksey Semyonovich Cheglakov, the head of the Vizhay fire brigade, a very good man, he always gave us boys his gun to go hunting with and was not afraid to trust us with it. I wouldn't have given it to him, in case he accidentally shot himself or shot someone. He was reliable.

MP: Yes, many Vizhay residents speak well of Aleksey Semyonovich. That's what they called him - Semyonych. Nadezhda Winter was friends with his daughter Natasha, and also recalled that he was a great amateur hunter. He knew the taiga well. He knew many Mansi. When the Mansi came to Vizhay, they often stayed overnight at the Cheglakovs. He knew good berry places. "He often took us to pick berries. He would take us there lightly, and back with full buckets, and five kilometers. And nothing. I often stayed with them on winter evenings for a long time. We loved it when uncle Lesha told us all sorts of stories, parables, fables and superstitions of the Mansi and all that stuff. But the main thing was that he twisted it all as if it were true. We were sitting there, our mouths open, it was interesting. They were at home, and I was afraid to go, even if I had to run across the street. They got ready and saw me off. I remember how he told us: on one side of the village there was a lake, and it had the purest water. Uncle Lesha said: never swim there, a wild old man lives in a hut behind the lake and drags everyone who swims there to the bottom of the lake. And such stories about all sides of the village. Now there are many different polemics about customs of the Mansi, uncle Lesha also told us a lot. About the Shaytan pit on the river, which we were also very afraid of..."

But back to the photo.

VA: All three are standing on Mansi skis. I remember from memory that all three had Mansi skis. But Ivan Pashin made them himself, that's 100 percent, and Cheglakov was given them, apparently, by the Mansi. I learned to make Mansi skis before the army. First, I bought a pair of Mansi skis from our hunter for five rubles, they were "golitsy", i.e. not covered with fur. And I quickly broke them, and had to make them myself. I learned, and even now on my veranda there are skis, stretched with kis, which I made myself. The Mansi were taught to stretch kis, once you watch, you will learn, if, of course, there is a desire. The Mansi have the best and most practical skis. And kis, or kamus in Siberian, is a part of the skin of the legs - the shins - of an elk, a deer, and you can also use cows or horses.

Mansi skis

MP: Are the skis all the same length?

VA: Whether the skis are shorter or longer is up to the individual, there is no single standard. A person is heavier, and the skis are correspondingly longer. The most important thing in Mansi skis is the 7-8-9 cm high step where the foot is placed. The foot is high and does not scoop up snow. And with our skis, the foot simply stands on the board and collects all the snow, creating a lot of resistance. And there is no resistance there, the foot is raised. You can put the bindings you want. The Mansi have bird cherry rings, and they ski wearing nyarki. Nyarki are sewn from the shank of an elk, before sewing they are doused with smoke, they are kept in a box made of birch bark and smoke is added there, they take on a beautiful yellow color, then they are sewn with a large gypsy needle, threads from the sinews of an elk, a deer. The needle is specially sharpened on 4 sides, it kind of pierces, the thread goes in and the hole closes itself.

The central part of the skin skis

Hunting skis
1 – "podlas"; 2 – toe ring; 3 – birch bark pad under the heel; 4 – belt.

Scheme of the кamus skis
1 – camus covering; 2 – vertical holes for the ring and belt; 3 – hole for wooden plugs for wedging skis; 4 – stiffener.

MP: Please tell us more about the forester Pashin.

VA: They lived on Pechora, but then in the late 1930s they moved to Vizhay, drove herds of cows, sheep, all their belongings across the Urals and founded the settlement of Vizhay. He lived on that side, and hunted on this side, since sable lived here, and they had marten. He hunted in these places, in Matveyevskaya Parma, with his grandfather Sarapen, who lived in the 70s on Pervy Severny. Parma is a Zyryan word meaning "hill covered with forest". And the name was given according to some cases or incidents. The borders of Matveevskaya Parma are from the upper reaches of Lozva to Auspiya.

I bought milk from them, and he told me about the taiga, hunting, he instilled in me a love for the taiga.

But he still decided to die in his homeland, in his village. He was raised on a boat with a motor to the upper reaches of Lozva in the spring. Pavlik Dombrovsky, our Vizhaysky raised him. He crossed the ridge, apparently, made a raft on the other side and swam to his village. And there he died. Although all his relatives: wife, children - remained in Vizhay. This man was strong in spirit and strong-willed. He taught me a lot. And I always remember him with great gratitude.

MP: Vladimir, are you familiar with another forester - Kuznetsov Alexander Ivanovich? He also lived in Vizhay at that time. And he also took part in the search for the Dyatlov group.

VA: I know one. But he died in the early 60s. And many of this family have already passed away in the prime of life. He is a Russian man, not Mansi, I went to school with his daughter Masha. They had a large family, six people. Her husband also died early, it is a great pity.

MP: Maybe Masha knows something about the search in which her father took part?

VA: Usually the father tells his son about this or that event. And the mother tells the girls.

Masha, I am sure, knows nothing, or only briefly. The eldest son lives somewhere not far from me, he must know something. But how to find him is a question. I will talk, maybe I will find out his address. He is 3-4 years older than me. He studied in the same class with Ryazhnev Yura.

MP: Did you know Ryazhnev Georgy Ivanovich? At that time he worked as the head of the 1st timber section of the Energolesokombinat.

VA: Ryazhnev Georgy - ours, from Vizhay, I knew him. He served in the Far East. He got a term there and was brought to us. He served his term with us in Vizhay, and I think he died there. Yes, he worked in Ivdellag, everyone who was in prison there stayed and worked. He stuttered a little, like his son Yuri. Yuri died 4-5 years ago.

MP: It's a bit strange, because in the interrogation report Ryazhnev indicated that he had no criminal record. And what kind of institution was this - Energolesokombinat?

VA: Energolesokombinat? This is the first time I've heard of it, maybe I've forgotten. We had an OITK, a department that included several correctional labor colonies. And the departments were part of the Directorate's structure. In Vizhay there was the 8th department, Institution N-248/8. The head of the 8th department was Hakimov, I went to school with his daughter Valentina. Cheglakov was the head of the fire department and carried out all of Hakimov's orders. Energolesokombinat - maybe that was the name, I don't remember, and I wasn't interested in it.

MP: And did you know Yegor Ivanovich Chagin? Was he a red-haired man? The thing is that in the report of Evgeniy Shuleshko's group on the Northern Urals in 1954, a certain coachman Chagin, an inhabitant of Vels, is mentioned, "a wild man with a copper-red face and red hair". He was always grumbling at the students, causing a scandal, and, as they decided, wanted to "rip them off for half a liter."

VA: He knew Egor Chagin well. We always bought gunpowder and shot from him. In 1970, he drowned. He was missing one leg. I didn't ask where he lost it, but I can find out if necessary. Chagin is not a redhead, ordinary, grayish, but his hair was black, of medium height, stingy, like an Old Believer. A good man. He also came from Pechora to us.

The local residents are, I must assume, only the Mansi people. And we are all newcomers, someone founded the village of Vizhay in the 1930s and stayed to live there. Then former prisoners, mostly from Stalin's camps, who did their time, all stayed and put down roots. Newcomers, like us, labor army soldiers (Germans), policemen after serving time (they were afraid to go home). We had a maximum security camp, somewhere around 500-600 convicts, and the same number of free people. We were engaged only in logging and timber rafting along the Lozva River to the Lesozavod (sawmill). And the Mansi are local, and none of them ever changed the name, they honor the old names. And the Russians don't need to change names, they can't do it. I have always been proud that I live in the Mansi region, and the names of the rivers and mountains suited me completely. Many names, i.e. I know the translation into Russian, maybe I forgot some things now, but I'll remember.

MP: Vladimir, have you seen a photo of the den, what can you say about it?

The den

VA: These trunks were not cut down by anyone, because they are dry without needles, look carefully, they were simply collected. In the forest there are such dead trees, they are simply broken by hand. Yes, there is some kind of dry wood, old deadwood.

MP: According to the protocols, in the criminal case it is said that traces of cut tops of young fir and birch trees were found near the cedar. Could they have fallen off between February and May, because the den was found in the snow in May?

VA: They could have broken under the weight of the snow. This often happens in the taiga. Falling off - never.

MP: Some searchers claim that there were traces of an axe.

VA: Perhaps with an axe, but earlier, at least like a year ago. The needles of a tree cut down in winter do not fall off immediately in the snow, it takes time - spring, summer, autumn.

MP: And what do you say about the Dyatlov group's labaz in this photo?

Labaz?

VA: I don't see any labaz.

MP: This one, where a ski is stuck in the snow, and on it are gaiters.

VA: Usually, if there was a labaz, it is not set up in the snow, since animals can find it and drag it away, or people themselves can lose this place. But in a high place, so that it can be seen from afar. Between two nearby trees, crossbars are installed - thick tree trunks, 12-14 centimeters in diameter. For strength. And on them they put what they wanted to leave: food, some extra clothes, spare skis, etc. A large burnt rag is tied nearby, the smell of the rag will scare away the animals. Or spent cartridges from a gun, they smell of gunpowder, well, something smelly, a piece of rag, used in gasoline, well, etc. And only desperate idiots who don't understand anything about the taiga, amateurs, could make a labaz in the snow, and such people should be driven out of the taiga. All of them should first take an exam like "Basics of survival in the taiga", and only then let them go on a route. There will be fewer emergencies.

MP: This so-called labaz is very strange, and it is possible that the Dyatlov group themselves did not make it. The Dyatlov group's diaries noted that they were going to build a labaz, to set it up. Build - it's not like digging a hole in the snow, is it?

VA: The word "labaz" itself implies installing a supply of something on trees, but not in the snow. They couldn't have done that, and it is clear that the ski stuck in is especially the only one, and where is the second one? Did they find it? No? It is not possible that any of them left their ski and continued on one.

MP: You see, you also noticed that in the photo of the labaz there is only one ski! And in the inspection report it says that a pair of skis - that's already odd...

VA: Or maybe they took the skis of a hiker who got sick and returned from the 2nd Northern. As spares.

MP: The sick hiker (Yuri Yudin) returned, as he said, on his skis.

VA: I wonder if anyone could have gone along this route earlier that year, in November, for example, and left a ski, sticking it in the snow. There is a lot of snow there in November too. Someone may have broken a ski, and they simply stuck it in the snow, as unnecessary, and went on. The searchers are standing in a compacted place, one can assume that this is where the ski track of the deceased passed and the skis were replaced. The broken one was thrown away, and this one was stuck in the snow, in case it comes in handy on the way back.

MP: An interesting assumption. But then why would the investigation note in the report that a pair of Dyatlov group skis were found? They should have written that there was one ski in the place of the labaz, as we can see from the photo...

Vladimir, what can you say about this labaz on the poles? This photo is from those very same Dyatlov group field films.

Mansi hunting labaz

VA: This is a temporary Mansi labaz, made immediately after hunting an elk or a bear. They put pieces of meat in it, and then continue hunting, or bring a team of reindeer, pick up the meat and take it to the camp. There are many such temporary labaz in the taiga. Once we were setting aside a logging area and came across a similar labaz. There was a butchered bear in it. But the meat had a bad smell, so we didn't take anything for dinner. Meat can lie for a month or more, especially since snow and frost won't spoil it, and we found the labaz along a black trail, i.e. there was no snow yet.

Nowadays, the Mansi try to smoke meat at the hunting site. We smoked it for 2-3 days - and the elk fit into a couple of backpacks. They don't build such labaz anymore. And the equipment, "Burans" can be taken out very well and quickly.

Vladimir Androsov at a labaz. Village on Malaya Toshemka, 1970s.

MP: Why did the Mansi build labaz on such high poles for a long time? What kind of animals did they protect their prey from? They didn't bury it in a pit, because the animal would always dig it up. And birds couldn't peck the prey in such a labaz on poles, wolverines wouldn't be able to jump up to it?

VA: Yes, from all animals, most importantly from mice. I told you that the poles were placed at least one meter high, all the poles were covered with a narrow piece of birch bark, 10-15 cm wide, so that mice couldn't get to the meat. And in the villages, a piece of tin was used. The Khanty also make a cut at a level of one meter, and a mouse won't get in. And there are few wolverines in the taiga. She likes to follow the reindeer herds, where she gets more food.

MP: Well, I didn't even think about mice. I thought they hibernate in winter.

VA: No, they look for food both in winter and in summer.

MP: Vladimir, people are arguing that this could be a salt lick, for feeding the moose, and therefore for shooting the moose, and others are saying that it could be a Mansi grave. How do all these named structures differ in appearance from a labaz?

VA: Salt licks are not made like that. Salt is scattered on the ground on salt licks, or a large aspen is cut down, a trough is made in it and salt is poured into the trough, it is absorbed, and the animals happily eat the aspen itself. But this is done where the elk feeds, in a young aspen grove. Or an old aspen is felled, the elk eats both the bark and the wood. And so that the elk finds this salt lick, a path is made for 50-100 meters, sprinkling the ground with salt, it will come to the salt lick faster. And in the photo, this is a real labaz for storing the meat of a killed animal. This is not hunting for animals in nature reserves, where elk, wild boars, roe deer are all fed. This is the taiga, and you can’t predict where the animal will pass next time. You can sit there until the next flood, but there will be no result. And the Mansi never shoot an animal in this way. You will die of hunger, and you and your family will perish. That's how it is.

MP: One person claims that this is an old abandoned Mansi sanctuary, and gives the following arguments: "The structure stands on one "leg", the rest are trunks of growing trees and do not belong to the "construction". And if there is one "leg", then this is a sacred barn. A kind of sanctuary for making sacrifices to a god - or a family, or a clan. It is difficult to compare the size - perhaps even the tribal size. The lack of a roof indicates that the sanctuary has been abandoned. There may be different reasons for this, for example, the clan has died out, or, according to the Mansi, the gods have stopped helping - there is no need to pay them by placing furs, jewelry, money in the barn..."

Old abandoned Mansi sanctuary

It still seems to me that Mansi sanctuaries were not built to such huge sizes as we see in the photo. And they were built conscientiously. For example, if the sanctuary is abandoned, its roof will not collapse on its own, rather the sanctuary will fall along with the roof. And here we see from the photo that there is not even a hint of a roof.

VA: You are thinking correctly! Sumyahs are installed on one or two stumps. As a rule, the barn is 126 cm long, 54 cm wide, 60 cm high. Nearby, on the edges, are the faces of the menkvs, 110 cm high, these are the guards. A door is required. And it is made not of logs, but of planks. There should be a table nearby. A fire pit. It is impossible without it.

Vasiliy Sambindalov with his son
at the sacred place of the Mansi near Lake Turvat.

This is a temporary labaz for meat, it is used only once in a lifetime. Mansi will rarely kill an animal in the taiga in the following years in this very place. Or will he drag the meat to this barn from several kilometers away, no. He will always build himself a new one. Because this one can fall apart.

MP: Vladimir, do you know if Mansi shamans are buried in a special way, or the same way as ordinary Mansi? I was told that Mansi used to be buried in trees, "in the air." Was that really the case?

Mansi grave

Mansi graves

VA: The Mansi bury their own, burying them shallowly in the ground, and put up a small log structure so that animals don't carry off the remains of a person. I also read, but only once, that sometimes the Mansi shamans were buried in a labaz, but I repeat, this is an isolated case, an exception to the rule. Who wrote it and when, I don't remember.

MP: In this photo from the Dyatlov group's film, you can see some kind of katpos, drawn with charcoal.

Fake Mansi sign

VA: It is impossible. The Mansi would not put "katpos" with coal, they were mostly illiterate. And katpos was their designation of the celebration of the hunt. Moreover, the year of the hunt is indicated here - this is not Mansi. The Mansi never put the year of the hunt, the main thing is the family tamga in the middle.

These are Russian hikers, because Russian hunters do not go there, it is very far from the village. They took coal from the fire and drew with it, and next to it was, perhaps, a real "katpos", that's all. And they put the year, they were probably training, just like that, having nothing better to do. Perhaps they drank tea there, rested and then went on, leaving their scribbles. The notch was made in the summer, the chamfer is very good. You can't do that in winter, there will be chips and unevenness, because the wood is frozen in winter.

This tamga is very similar to the tamga of the Kazym Khanty, well, exactly the same.

MP: This is the tamga of the Anyamov family (Anyamov Andrey Alekseevich had hunting grounds in those places along the Auspiya).

VA: There is a book written by the Finnish researcher A. Alqvist, "Among the Khanty and Mansi", 180 pages. And on the last pages there are samples: tamgas of the Sosva Voguls, tamgas of the Kazym people, Samoyed tamgas, tamgas of the Obdorsk Ostyaks, about 450 in total. His travels in 1858, 1863, 1883 to the North-West Siberia.

Note: Karl August Engelberkt Ahlqvist, also Ahlquist (Swedish Karl August Engelberkt Ahlqvist) - August 7, 1826, Kuopio, Grand Duchy of Finland - November 20, 1889, Helsinki; Finnish poet, philologist, researcher of Finno-Ugric languages, who made significant contributions to Finno-Ugric studies, and also a literary critic. (Wikipedia)

MP: In the criminal case, in one of the protocols of interrogation of the searchers, there is a mention of a certain tent that stood on the slope of Kholat-Syakhl. On the film from the search there is a photo of a certain Mansi structure. What can you say about it?

Mansi sign

VA: They killed an elk in this place. Why did they kill it and not let it die? Because both antlers are together here. When an elk takes off its antlers, it loses them one by one, scraping its antlers against the trees and losing first one half, then the other. The hunters left meat in this place, the terrain is the same all around. And they put up a sign so that it could be seen from afar, maybe they carried the meat out on foot and then returned for a new trip. It's just a sign. Although the long thin planed stick on the left looks like a ferret. Apparently, the Mansi took the meat from the deer, but not all of it, and so as not to get lost, they put these antlers on sticks so that they could find it faster the second time. And they killed the elk in the fall. But I don't know why they didn't take the ferret.

MP: In the forest, after a good kill, hunters make notches, katpos. But here you can see that it's an open area, there are no big trees, you can't make a notch. Do you want to leave a sign that you killed an elk?

VA: Yes. If there was a forest there, they would have left a sign on the clearing, it's impossible! And the elk could have come out of the forest, I see there are no trees there at all, just a bare spot. Elk sometimes feed in places like that.

MP: Some people say that this is a sign that the Mansi left on their trail.

VA: The most likely thing is that this is a local "sacrificial" place, of some family, or several Mansi with different surnames. Those who once herded deer there. So they brought a bloodless, or maybe even a blood sacrifice (in the form of a deer). Sometimes you can find a sacrificial place in the mountains, and elk antlers as an attribute! I don't know what year and where the photo was taken.

MP: It is assumed that this photo was taken by searchers near the slope of Kholat-Syakhl.

VA: If this is near Kholat-Syakhl, then the Mansi also grazed their deer there. And if the photo is from the 50s, then, apparently, this is their "sacrificial" place. So that wolves do not attack the herd, so that the deer do not get sick, so that there is a good offspring, so that there is a lot of food, so that they themselves are healthy, well, and so on. I am inclined to think that this is a "sacrificial" place, and this is my final opinion.

MP: So this is definitely not a chum.

VA: This is funny. Mansi would never make a chum in the mountains. It is built for habitation, albeit temporary. A year or two. But not in the mountains. In a wooded area, near a river, where there is food for the deer. Forget this nonsense about a chum in the mountains, where there is no firewood and no living conditions!

MP: But couldn't they have put a chum there for hunting?

VA: I repeat, there were no chums there. The chum was only for living, not for hunting. The chum was built from light poles tied together at the top. There were about 30 of them, the poles were placed according to the diameter. Birch bark boiled in water and stitched with deer sinews or thick threads was placed on the wooden frame. There was a passage for smoke at the top. In winter, deer skins sewn together were put on this frame. Both outside and inside. Snow was laid around the perimeter of the chum for warmth. Inside, a lattice of rods is laid on the floor, and on them, too, reindeer skins. In the middle, the fire is surrounded with stones for safety. In winter, a skin hangs on the door, in summer - birch bark. Wild Voguls lived in tents, and, as needed, moved from place to place. The Mansi, if they move the tent to another place, then for this purpose there is a special sled for transporting the tent to another place, and they take everything with them, only grass remains.

The last Mansi chum, 1970s, Ivan Evlampievich Uvarov, founder of the Ivdel Museum.

MP: Vladimir, have any other groups of hikers ever disappeared in your area?

VA: No one has ever disappeared there in our time. The only incident occurred in 1972, a hikers got lost on Lenchi-Syakhl, a little further south. Translation - "a man was crying". And we looked for him, but we didn't find him, we looked for about 2 weeks. In vain. Then his father, the general, arrived by helicopter, after our search. It's useless.

MP: The Mansi also said in the interrogation protocol that no Mansi had ever disappeared there.

VA: The Mansi always say "the Mansi don't wander, they just walk around for a long time", so we need to learn from them endurance, patience, they will never panic.

MP: There are so many mentions on the Internet about people disappearing at different times near Kholat Syakhl...

VA: Maya, I don't know what you read there, but I repeat once again that, except for the 1959 group and the person who went missing in 1972 on Lenchi-Syakhl, no one has ever disappeared in our area. True, in 1970 two unregistered hikers got lost, but they also found the Mansi, who were herding reindeer in the mountains. Only one soldier died on Mount Chistop, he went into the taiga and got lost.

MP: I am interested in a group of Rostovites who were on the route with Dyatlov's group at the same time, and they were asked about them in radiograms, whether anyone had met this group. The version of some researchers is that this group disappeared.

VA: Information should be looked for in the archives of the city of Ivdel, if they were registered. I do not believe that someone died among us. When we were looking for a hiker in 1972, the head of the KSS of the city of Ivdel, Yevgeny Reiter, was with us, and he would have known if someone in our area had gotten lost, we discussed everything with him, he was my friend. Rumors would have spread anyway. But both the Mansi and the city are silent.

MP: Vladimir, please tell us about those searches.

VA: Evgeny Reiter, head of the Ivdel city KSS, was the senior and led the search for the hiker who went missing on August 2, 1972. Three of us were sent from Vizhay. There were some from Ushma, from the city. But basically, hikers who registered in Ivdel were taken off the route and came to us for the search. About 50 people gathered. After the search, I was assigned to public work, head of the control and rescue post in Vizhay. To register hikers and transmit data to Ivdel, etc.

We searched for the hiker for two weeks, I was in charge of the search, we combed the entire area with a comb, after all, 50-60 people is a force. Everyone was interested in finding him. We even went with groups from this place to the Mansi Bakhtiyarovs, my friends, who live 20 km away, but they did not meet anyone, and no one came out to them.

Search for a hiker who got lost on Lenchi-Syakhl in 1972
From Vizhay: Vladimir Androsov, Yuri Zhuchkov, Aleksander Graminskiy (first from the left), Evgeniy Reiter (fifth from the left) - from Ivdel, a serviceman with a search dog - a representative of the City Department of Internal Affairs, a nurse from Ivdel.

Search for a hiker, 1972. Climbing Tump-Yang ("Island"), altitude 910 m. The trail is 10 km long - from the yurt of Pyotr and Miron Bahtiyarov. Vladimir Androsov is on the right.

Vladimir Androsov and Pyotr Bahtiyarov in the area of ​​the Malaya Toshemka River.

Roman Anyamov and Miron Bahtiyarov

We went to Vishera, Bolshaya Toshemka, there were no traces anywhere. And most importantly, they combed, and there were no traces. I still consider myself guilty, because they did not comb one place north of their camp. This place is a solid wall of willow, it is impossible to go there. I admit that he climbed there and froze there, because he went a few meters from the tent for sorrel, they wanted to cook borscht, and sorrel grows around there and they did not have to go far. He went away, and then the wind blew, then rain, fog for four days. The hikers did not leave the tent, there was no way to go out. This group was not registered in Ivdel. When the fog subsided, they ran with the children to the village of Ushma to inform the authorities about the emergency. They had two children 14-15 years old with them. A total of 7-8 people. The missing one was the same age as me, I feel sorry for the boy. Of course, if he stayed in the willows, then the animals have torn everything apart and over the course of almost 40 years a thick layer of fallen leaves has formed there. But this does not give me peace. That is why I want to go there. But I think that in a panic he rushed towards the forest and froze somewhere there.

He was dressed lightly - in a T-shirt, trousers, well, he walked 5-6 steps. The place is windy there, there are no mosquitoes, on the very slope of the ridge. In short, panic has killed many. You get lost, you don’t know which way to go, sit in one place for a week or two, they will still look for you and find you. And if you run, an uncontrollable situation arises, panic, and this is already death. The main thing is to pull yourself together, think, get your bearings on the terrain and not panic. Before going along the route, each hiker must study the area and have it in mind. And they follow the group leader, watch the heels of the one walking in front and nothing more. This place is translated from Mansi as "a man cried", so think about it...

MP: Igor Popov, director of the Vishera Nature Reserve, said that about a thousand domestic reindeer died in an avalanche in the Toshemsky Canyon (35 km south of the site of the tragedy). It's steep there, but the reindeer were walking along a gentle ledge and fell down the steep slope.

VA: Maybe something happened on Vishera, but not here. First, there's a discrepancy. Reindeer are driven to the Urals in May. And in November, when there's still little snow, they're driven into the taiga. And there's no way they could have fallen off the snow canopy. There's no canopy at that time. And reindeer aren't stupid, they can sense danger too. By the end of the 80s, our Mansi no longer had reindeer, they drank them away, and now there are no reindeer herders in our area. It is hard work. Maybe the Mansi did not prepare their children for this. The children studied at a boarding school in Polunochny and, of course, saw a different life, without mosquitoes, without reindeer. But with cars, shops and other benefits of civilization. And after that I didn't really want to mess around with the deer.

MP: In the Criminal Case there is one interrogation protocol of the detective Gorbushin A.V., where he reports that one of the Mansi Kurikovs said "that near the holy mountain, where this mountain is, he did not say, live five Ostyaks. They, like savages, are not friends with either the Mansi or the Russian people. They never visit the city of Ivdel. And these Ostyaks could kill the hikers because they, the hikers, wanted to climb the holy mountain or because they thought that the hikers could kill their deer and elk, which they feed on."

VA: The wild Mansi are the Mansi who came from the west, in particular, the Bahtiyarov family, they were previously called "wild people". The present-day Mansi have forgotten what it is. They still live near the Toshemka River, where their ancestral lands are considered. The old people have all died, only Prokopiy and his son remain.

"Holy Mountain" is the Prayer Stone, Yalping-Nyer, the Sacred Mountain, a revered mountain for the Mansi people. It is located in the upper reaches of the Vizhay River. Of course, somewhere in the taiga there are still sacred Mansi barns. But where exactly they are, is unknown. The Anchug River flows into the Vizhay River, and there, at the mouth, lived many Mansi Bakhtiyarovs. I went there by car in the fall of 1970. There was a large friendly family, many Mansi lived. There, downstream, the Kul River flows into the Vizhay River, only on the right side, and the Anchug flows on the left side. Now there lives in the middle reaches of the Vizhay River one Mansi, Bakhtiyarov Prokopiy, maybe he knows something. In the fall we saw each other and took pictures, but did not talk about this, we will have to talk. Now, probably, none of them go to this mountain. And many translate Vizhay as "holy water", because it originates from the Prayer Stone. And the Kurikov family never lived there, they lived much further north. The Kurikov hunting grounds were near Suevat-paul. Now no one lives there in Suevat, about eight years.

The Prayer Stone - I have been near it many times, but I did not go to the mountain itself, there was no need. Basically, at the foot. I took the whole family there in different years.

A shaman lived on Kula, there is a very good legend about a bronze bear with rubies in his eyes. I knew this legend well, and maybe it is true. After all, the Prayer Stone was nearby, and the shaman lived there constantly. The Prayer Stone is a sacred place of the Mansi. And it existed for many, many decades, if not hundreds of years. And this is the only place in the area, up to Northern Sosva, where the Mansi made sacrifices.

Mansi sanctuaries

Yalbynya, this river flows into Lake Turvat on the Northern Sosva. I was there too and fished in it in the late 70s. This is a sacred river for the Mansi. The idol Chakhryn-Oyka was there. Also on Yalping-Nyer, from which the Yalbynya flows.

The Vizhay River originates from the Prayer Stone and therefore it is considered a sacred river by the Mansi. Vizhay is not a Mansi name, and therefore the translation is different. I think it means "blue water". Others, that it is a "sacred river".

Mansi, in the past, everyone always wore braids, and various trinkets were woven into them, but not bells.

Mansi men 1930s

Mansi women's hairstyle 1959

MP: Vladimir, I was interested in the following point: the interrogation report of forester Rempel Ivan Dmitrievich says that Dyatlov asked him for advice on the best way to Otorten. Rempel, when he familiarized himself with their route, expressed "his opinion that in winter it is dangerous to go along the Ural ridge, because there are large gorges, holes into which you can fall, and, in addition, strong winds rage there, blowing people away", that he knew this area of ​​the Ural ridge from the words of a local resident. And he advised Dyatlov to go by a shorter route, along one of their forest clearings. To this they replied: "we will resolve this issue when we arrive at the Second Northern Mine". Why did Dyatlov say that everything would be resolved at the Second Northern, this seems suspicious to me. And in general, what do you think, was it really closer to Otorten along the forest clearing than along the Mansi trail?

VA: Don't exaggerate, who said what, and who answered what, it's all nonsense. There was a trail, and they went along it, it's the easiest and shortest path. And there are no mysteries here, and again no, it's so clear - they chose a better road. They would have dragged themselves along the "kvartalka" for a very long time, along the trail it is much faster and shorter. The hikers were going to go along the Mansi trail, which begins at the Lozva River, at the mouth of the Auspiya River and goes to the ridge along the Auspiya River. The Mansi drove deer along it in the spring to the Urals, and in the fall from the Urals to the taiga. These trails are old and excellent for travel, all hikers walked only along them. And at that time they were marked on the maps.

Rempel had never been there. He worked as a forester. And that's why he recommended them to go along the quarter clearing. Maybe he didn't know about the path, but it was the best road.

MP: Nevertheless, Rempel warned them about the danger, that in winter those places were impassable, strange, because he had heard the Mansi stories about those places, otherwise he wouldn't have said it. When the news of the Dyatlov group's death reached Vizhay, Ivan Dmitrievich told his family that he had warned the boys that they might not return alive, that it was a natural occurrence and that there was nothing surprising about their deaths... Pilot Patrushev also warned the students about the danger of going to those places in winter... Who knows, the Dyatlov group would have gone along the clearing, along the long road, and maybe they would have stayed alive... And what is this quarter clearing that Rempel was talking about?

VA: The entire taiga, or wooded area, is cut into quarters, at that time a quarter was 8 km x 4 km in size. Then 4 x 4, when I was there the quarters were 4 x 2 km, and now that I have left the village, they have become 2 x 2 km. And this is exactly what Rempel meant when he spoke about the clearing, the width of the clearing is 1 meter, it is hewn on both sides with notches, you can’t drive past it.

Forester Ivan Dmitrievich Rempel

Dyatlov Pass was named after the death of the hikers. And the trail there existed for hundreds of years, as soon as the Mansi began to live there, so the trails appeared. They are like roads, without them you can't get anywhere. Neither to visit, nor to hunt, you have to drive the deer to the Urals, where calving takes place. The trail is the Mansi civilization, it can go to the ridge (Ural), then through the Urals, to the Perm region, to Komi, to the Ob River, to the tundra, through villages. It's like our highways.

On the ridge, the trail disappears, because there are no trees, and the hikers themselves continue along their route. After all, the hikers walked along it, along the Mansi trail to the ridge. Pashin and the first settlers who founded Vizhay crossed the ridge along this Mansi varga, where the hikers got lost. Pashin knew these places very well. That's why they brought him in to search.

MP: That's why they ended up in such an unfavorable place, on this slope.

VA: Why an unfavorable slope? There's a normal slope there, a normal place. The question is, why did he pitch a tent not in the taiga, but on an open slope? That's the reason, and it's the most important one. If he'd pitched it in the taiga, maybe everyone would have been alive.

Why didn't they go down? Even though they say he was an experienced hiker, he supposedly wanted to leave for Otorten early and get there before dark. An experienced hiker, and especially an experienced one, wouldn't pitch a tent where they found it. Of course, we can put forward a version that someone moved the tent during the tragedy, since it was profitable for someone...

It is difficult to explain anything now and understand the essence of what happened, but something scared them to death, since they rushed naked, there was no time to get dressed.

MP: What do you think?

VA: It is not my version that they were killed by the elements, no matter how hard it was for them (snow, wind), especially no one would have left the tent. They were suffocating without air, there was none, or there was insufficient quantity. So they rushed out of the tent, each in what they had. And then this wave passed, air for breathing appeared, but frost and naked people... that's the end.

One autumn, we were doing production with the foresters, talking about hunting, fishing, etc. And we saw something oblong stretching along the ridge, and four searchlights descended from it to the ground, flooding the area with light. I saw this only once, and it was in the early 80s.

The hikers were also very surprised by something, and then horror, shock and running in different directions.

MP: Is there a yeti in those parts?

VA: I talked to the Mansi, all the Mansi living north of the village of Vizhay knew me. We hunted together, drank beer, ate planed meat. And, of course, we talked about the taiga. They said that in the upper reaches of the Lozva River they met either a huge animal or a man. It was a yeti, and I am sure that he lived there or was at that moment at the site of the tragedy.

There is one mountain called Khoi-Ekva, which means "Woman Queen". None of the Mansi go there, to the mountain itself, and perhaps there is also a small area in the upper reaches of the Lozva River, a place where the yeti lived or lives. This is an area of ​​caves. No one has ever lived on Hoy-Ekva. This place has not been explored, which is a pity.

It was not the NKVD specialists, but the MGB who seriously injured them. They know how or knew how to hide their tracks. They would have simply loaded everyone onto a helicopter and taken them far from this place and dropped them there. At that time, there were many blank spots in these areas, and no one would ever have found them. But they remained and were all located not far from the tent.

MP: One of the researchers of the causes of the tragedy that happened to the Dyatlov group, Gennadiy Kizilov, put forward a version that the Dyatlov group went along a completely different place. Not along the Auspiya and Varga, but along the Lozva, it is more convenient: you walk along the river all the time and come out to Otorten. And in the guys' diaries, interested people involved in the death of the group, transferred everything. Is it possible to walk to Otorten along the Lozva in winter?

VA: Nobody walks along the Lozva, it’s icy.

MP: But there’s also icy water on the Auspiya and it’s also difficult to walk. I can’t understand how the road along the Auspiya differs from the road along the Lozva.

VA: The Lozva is wide and deep, it’s dangerous to walk there. And there’s windfall along the bank. But you can step over the Auspiya. You have to walk very carefully in the upper reaches of the Lozva, there are a lot of thawed areas, open areas, a lot of icy water (when water flows under the snow) and other unpleasant things. It’s better to walk along the mountains than along the river. I repeat, the most convenient way to move to the Ural Mountains and beyond is the Mansi trail along the Auspiya River, it starts from the Lozva River and goes to the ridge. Naturally, it is not visible on the ridge, but there they are already following the route laid out on the map. And this route is quite old, and hikers have known about it for a long time. This is the most convenient route. The path leads to Kholat-Syakhl, and there you can see Mount Otorten and other mountains.

The place was named Dyatlov Pass after the tragedy. If any of the local Russians went to Dyatlov Pass, they could say that they went to the upper reaches of Auspiya (Verkhuspiy). My friend Leonid Plotnikov and I were the first of our generation to go from the village to Dyatlov Pass, back in the 70s. There are two trails leading to Kholat-Syakhl.

We went along the second one, none of the hikers knew about it, and it was as clean as a tear, and the walk to the ridge was 8 hours from the Lozva River. And then little by little all the local Russians flocked there to fish for graylings. The second trail is about 10 km along the Lozva River and then to the ridge.

And the first, Mansi, trail was more convenient for hikers.

Until the 90s, no one except the Mansi and local Russians went along the second trail. But in 2005, the second trail was driven by UAZ-type vehicles, ATVs, and people went by transport straight to the ridge and along it in any direction, right up to Man-Pupa-Nyer (mountain of stone idols). And this year, our extreme sports enthusiasts from Ivdel took a photo at a memorial plaque on the slope, and next to them were three UAZs, that's it. They don't want to go on foot. They're lazy, and it's heavy with luggage, it's easier by car. Yes, the wrong people went...

MP: When the first search group was dropped off at Otorten, they were told to go down to Lozva and continue along the supposed route that Dyatlov's group could have taken to Otorten. Searcher Brusnitsyn said: "Why Lozva? Logically, we thought that Dyatlov and his group would go up Lozva, which is the closest, but we never thought that he would go along Auspiya. And so we went down to Lozva that same day, searched and searched..."

VA: Logically, they reasoned correctly and went down Lozva, trying to see the ski track. The ski track would have been very well preserved anyway. But these searchers apparently did not know about the trail to Auspiya, or they were amateurs, people far from the taiga. But the train of thought was correct.

MP: Vladimir, I was asked to find out from you whether it is realistic for 5 people to get from the Second Northern to the search camp on Auspiya in 2 hours on a sled? Taking into account the folding and unfolding of the radio? It is known from radiograms that on February 26 at 10:45 Nevolin was in the village, and at 13:00 he had already met the rescue team in the upper reaches of Auspiya. Was there a winter route for the Mansi from Suevat-Paul to Lozva?

VA: As such, there never was a road from Suevat (winter road). The Mansi could have traveled along their Mansi trails, and I don’t know how they traveled. I can only guess that they traveled along a short road towards the Auspiya River, there are many Mansi trails there. The Second Northern is located in the middle between the Ushma River and the Auspiya River. In a day, reindeer can make a transition of 120 km. From the mouth of the Auspiya to the pass 33 km. From the Second Northern to the Auspiya River 14-15 km. Total: 48 km. In summer, it takes 2 days to get from the mouth of the Auspiya to the pass. The Mansi on sleds cover 10 km in two hours. Five people will never fit on a sled. Only two. In my opinion, he could not have traveled in 2 hours.

The Second North is an uninhabited settlement. And what is Nevolin doing there? They could have been dropped there by helicopter, especially since he had a radio station. And what, did Nevolin and Kurikov leave Suevat together??? Or did they meet somewhere near Auspiya?

Stepan Kurikov
in 1961 he was nominated for the Ivdel City Council deputy for Mansi electoral district №88. Concurrently, he is a shaman.

The Mansi reindeer would not have been driven to the emergency site. There is no food there, and they would have had to be driven again to the mouth of the Auspiya, where there is food. I wonder why they were not dropped off by helicopter; they could have been dropped off from the Second Northern.

MP: It is a mystery, shrouded in darkness, why the radio operator could not be dropped to the pass by helicopter, but was carried on sleds. And what kind of settlement could there be at the mouth of the Auspiya?

VA: Most likely it was the Second Northern.

Even higher than the mouth, about 10 km away, there was the so-called "Ilyich's base". There was a bathhouse, a house, a guest house. He hunted there, starting in 65-67 and up to 80-82. Then he died. Everything was burned there, and only a vacant lot remained. He himself is from the village of Burmantovo, then he got together with a woman named Burmantova in Vizhay, forgot her name, lived with her and then died.

At Ilyich's base. Ilyich himself is nursing a cup of tea (in the center)

MP: Vladimir, at the cedar where the bodies of the two dead guys were found, the searchers said that branches up to 8 cm thick were broken off. Is it possible to break off such thick branches with bare hands?

VA: Cedar is a fragile tree, even in summer, and in winter all trees except birch are fragile from frost. You can easily break a branch 8 cm thick in winter only if you hang on it. You won't break it if you stand on it with your foot. And you can't cut such branches with a knife, that's what an axe is for.

MP: And if you drop something heavy on such a branch from above, will it break?

VA: If you throw something heavy, it won't break, the branch will spring back. You can never break an 8 cm branch with your feet, only with an AXE, and not with a knife. Try it - and everything will be clear. When you hang, the weight is 60-70 kg, under this weight not only an 8 cm branch, but a large branch (knot) can be broken.

MP: A fire was made from these branches. From dry branches and fresh ones. Which cedar branches burn well?

VA: Dry cedar burns well. Before setting up camp, the hunter finds a place with a lot of dry firewood, no matter what kind, cedar after a fire, pine, larch. Otherwise, you won’t be able to dry your clothes and you might freeze. You practically plan to spend the night in the same places. If there is no dry firewood, then you use an axe at waist level to remove all the bark from the tree in a circle. By 10-15 cm. And in a year - ready-made dry wood. And you prepare several such trees, 5-6 pieces. And so every year. And you will always have firewood. And in an unfamiliar place, you look for a place with a lot of dry firewood and prepare a place to spend the night there. You need to take this very seriously! All trees, especially large ones, always have dry dead branches. And in the rain and snow they are always dry, when the fire flares up, then, except for fir, which gives a lot of sparks, you can throw everything, but the best of all is BIRCH. It can always be found in any forest.

MP: They say that there on the slope, in the lowland, before reaching the cedar, there grows a small crooked birch, which does not burn at all, but only smokes. Hikers were unable to light it. Does such a birch exist?

VA: Regarding the birch. The last time I was on the ridge was 10 years ago. In the rain, we froze, and we lit a fire with this birch, warmed up, and only then went to the car. There was simply no other forest there. If you cut the birch lengthwise, and do not put it whole, then there will always be a fire. And only then can you throw whole pieces into the fire when it flares up. It's just that I've been in the taiga since childhood and I know a little about firewood. Birch, even damp, burns well when you put it in the fire after dry firewood at night, it smolders for a long time and gives off good heat. For example, the Mansi and I do this.

MP: Vladimir, thank you for the interesting conversation, thank you very much! I wish you good health and more strength to complete your work on the history of Vizhay and the surrounding area. I think that it will be interesting not only to Vizhay residents, but also to everyone interested in the history of the Urals. Thank you!