Slobtsov interview 2006

Technical recording by Evgeniy Buyanov from the Vladimir Borzenkov video recording. Individual insignificant words and repeated phrases have been removed (without changing the context).

VB: A question about setting up the tent. About the condition of the tent. How steep was the slope where the tent was set up. About 15 degrees, I think?

BS: Yes, about 15 degrees....

VB: Was the slope slightly noticeable?

BS: Not slightly, it was definitely noticeable. But it was not steep at all. (This is the opinion of a master of sports in mountaineering - ed.).

VB: If this is a profile, did they have a tent depth like this?

BS: I can't say for sure. This slope - there was snow here, further on it was clean, and further on there was only crust. But it's absolutely certain - there was a tent on skis.

VB: But if we assume, this is the slope of the tent.

BS: Two green tents.

VB: Two four-person tents sewn together.

(Four-person tent. Dimensions: length - 200 cm, width - 180 cm, height - 180 cm, height of side walls - 80 cm. The tent has a snap-on or sewn-on floor. On the back wall there is a window with a mesh insert, which is closed from the outside of the tent with a curtain. Inside the tent, pockets are sewn to the back and side walls. When sewing the four-person tent, various materials can be used: plain-dyed rep with water-repellent impregnation, article 629, 630, tent article MG-049-76 and MG-049-276; raincoat-tent fabric, article 564, tent article MG-049-122; fabric article 610, tent article MG-049-257. (from the tent passport for 1961) - ed. note).

VB: Here is a photo of the tent...

standing when you came to this place. This is when the investigator was digging.

BS: But it was the same when we were there.

VB: Was the snow thrown off from above? Did you throw it off? It wasn't you here.

BS: No, it wasn't us. It was after us.

VB: If you look closely at the photo, you can assume that the tent isn't that deep.

BS: If you draw it like this...

this isn't the entrance to the tent, is it?

VB: This is the entrance.

BS: The entrance, you think?

VB: They say that this is the entrance.... .

BS: I don't remember so much snow at the entrance. The jacket could have been here then....

VB: As far as I remember from the descriptions, this is where it could have been.

BS: And here the second end of the guy rope was torn off, and everything was covered with snow.

VB: You can see the entrance here.... When could they have taken this, if you say the entrance was not covered?

BS: I'm not saying it was clean. We found the jacket here. And here, I can't say, we took the ice axe from some guy ropes. It seems to me that it was simply stuck near ​​the entrance.

VB: And could this photo have been taken 2-3 days after you were there? And after the investigators did some digging? Was it snowing after you got there?

BS: No!.. They just threw the snow away....

VB: So there was quite a bit of snow... ..

BS: It's possible that the jacket was inside. Or there was just a piece sticking out, we pulled it out... . I can be sure of this now. A lot of time passed, and in addition we were under a lot of stress.

VB: I see...

BS: We couldn't have gotten the jacket if it was too hard. Do you understand? That is, to tear it out from here.

It can be considered that it was just a piece of junk. Most likely the jacket was tied inside. And it was inside the tent...

VB: I can also tell you this, from my memories, somewhere there, in the middle of not the slope that was cut, but the opposite one, that is, this one,

VB: I can also tell you this, from recollections (of searchers - ed. note), somewhere there, in the middle of not the slope that was cut, but the opposite one, that is, this one,

BS: We thought that this was Dyatlov's jacket, based on that box and the documents that were found there. Igor's documents were there. But whose it really was, we didn't know.

VB: I see. And the torn piece on this side, and you didn't dig up the jacket?

BS: All these years I've been convinced that Dyatlov's jacket was at the entrance, not in the hole or anywhere else. And when we dug around, we also brought back a flask of alcohol.

VB: And was she in a jacket?

BS: No, she was inside the tent. We dug around inside and looked, and found her.

VB: And about the excavations, did you do them with the ice axe that you found here?

BS: Yes, and they (the excavations) were very short. That is, when we were convinced, having looked inside through all these holes, that there were no bodies there....

VB: And were you mainly looking for people?

BS: Yes. Only! And what we brought with us on the way down was a box, a flask of alcohol and... something else there.

VB: And did you leave your jacket there?

BS: Yes.

VB: I see, now about the poles that everything was secured to - were there any movements or demolitions? That is, I mean, you are ruling out traces of avalanche activity?

BS: Me? Yes.

VB: The nature of the snow, as you said, was slightly compacted? Not loose?

BS: No, it was not loose!

VB: So it was compacted at all?

BS: Well, it was not loose at all. Dense.

VB: What kind of snow? Like, if you took it with your hand, a piece would fall off? Or not....

BS: Where, inside the tent?

VB: No, on top.

BS: .... I don't remember.

VB: It was claimed that the tent was behind the ledge. Something like this, higher than the wall.

BS: Well, we approached it from that side.

And we saw it from there. What happened next didn't interest us. It didn't stick in our memory.

VB: So, there wasn't any ledge the height of the tent behind the tent?

BS: No. At least, I don't remember that.

VB: That is, the ledge, if it was there, was within the height of the side slope. Right?.. On the side of the entrance, as someone claimed, there were the remains of a wall made of snow bricks.

BS: No.... Not here.

VB: So there was no wall there?.. I see.

BS: The whole floor was made of their skis.

VB: There was a tent with a bottom. Skis under the bottom?

BS: Yes, at that time it was considered that it was "branded". That is, as it should be. Since the slope was not very steep, there was no need to dig out much. But they also leveled out some snow.

VB: It was these cuts in the slope to level the horizontal that interested me.

And the blankets that were there, were they mostly wool blankets? Or was there something else?

BS: And who knows?

VB: And you didn't find them? Or didn't you open the tent?

BS: We only made a ditch. And there definitely weren't any sleeping bags there...

VB: They say there were wool blankets there. Or not?

BS: No, there were blankets, but wool or flannel?.. There definitely weren't any sleeping bags. Neither government ones, nor... These....

VB: And were there sleeping bags for rent at the institute?

BS: Sleeping bags? Down ones? Even the qualified tourists from the Dyatlov group couldn't have had them. Simply because of hopeless poverty. There was nothing at that time. Such a group simply could not drag heavy cotton bags with them. Well, they were very heavy. I think only Dyatlov had a storm jacket. Maybe someone else did. That's when, a few days later, they brought us this "enormous" tent with a stove. Then they brought these army sleeping bags. We were already sleeping in them then. Because when we went, we definitely didn't have any sleeping bags with us. Only blankets. And my first winter hike in my first year - we didn't know anything about sleeping bags then. Sleeping bags were only in alpine camps.

VB: A little aside. Do you deny traces of avalanche activity? Up there, on the slopes... could there have been something? Or did you just not look?

BS: When we were walking to the tent, we were looking.... We had a route for this "trinity" - our goal was to climb the ridge and look at the notorious Otorten from the ridge. We had binoculars.... They were supposed to land us closer to it. The helicopter pilots made a mistake. But it turned out to be still far away. They were wrong by some kilometers. We were supposed to land at the northernmost point. We went in that direction, and walked for another two or three days until we reached this place.

VB: Did you land on that spur that is now called Dyatlov Pass, or further south?

BS: Further south.

VB: So, you went along the ridge. But in the Otorten area, further north, was there no one there, i.e. no group was dropped off?

BS: Well, it was thought that we were supposed to be at the northernmost point. And thanks to this unqualified helicopter navigator, we were dropped off closer.

VB: Are you on an MI-4?

BS: .... We... yes, I think on an MI-4.... I can't remember exactly, we got there on the third day, or the fourth. Or the second. Definitely not the first. We spent two nights.

VB: Did you walk along the tops?

BS: We walked through the taiga.

VB: And did you go up?

BS: Here, the first time we went out - and found them.

VB: And here, or later during the rescue operations, did you not see any ledges? Didn't it fall? Don't you remember? Most likely, it didn't - that's why we didn't pay attention.

BS: Logically, what kind of mountains are these? These are hills. We wanted to see the cornices with binoculars, since according to a local legend, there are deep karst formations on Otorten. But one of the legends says that once upon a time, locals were walking there on dog sleds and fell down with a cornice... This was the possible "version" we came up with from the very beginning, where to look for them. How could a qualified group, not the first year in the Subpolar Urals, disappear like that... That's why we had such a task for this next, I emphasize, another radial exit....

VB: But you didn't see the cornices?

BS: We didn't look at all.

VB: And then, when you were working there from above? No landslides, no cornices?

BS: No, no, no! First of all, there is a depression in the ridge.... Where we worked.... And the wind here.... It blew very well....

VB: As far as I understand, this is the summit, this is the spur that is now called the Dyatlov Pass.

This is the ridge away from Otorten, this is the continuation here, straight to the south.

This is their supposed exit.

This is the labaz below. So, how do you estimate the distance from the place where the tent was pitched to the labaz and to the place where they went down?

BS: So, from the tent to the place where they went, it's a maximum of about a kilometer and a half.

VB: And if we take the point of the tent and the labaz?

BS: I can't say that. Firstly, we didn't find the labaz the first time. We were then thrown into searching for the labaz.... Our camp was set up so as not to damage anything in the place where we were searching.... We also brought the dogs there. We crossed from Auspiya every day.

VB: You had a camp on Auspiya, below the forest line, and how far down?

BS: Mmm... I can't say....

VB: Okay, how long did it take, say, to climb from the base camp to the exit to the pass?

BS: Well, more than an hour.

VB: More than an hour, or about an hour....

BS: Yes, we did go, then we had to work there and come back. It couldn't have been much longer. Otherwise we would have had to move the camp. We were forbidden to set up camp there.

VB: Why? So as not to spoil the tracks?

BS: Yes! They brought dogs too. The dogs were looking. Because they couldn't find the knife. In that place, near the fire.

VB: Near Krivonischenko?

BS: Yes, they never found it, or maybe they found it somewhere?

VB: Where did it come from? There were cuts, not just broken branches.

BS: True, there were cuts too. That's why they immediately brought mine detectors by helicopter.

VB: They don't search well under the snow...
Another question about the tracks. Where did the tracks from the tent go approximately from? And in what direction, as you assumed. Let's say, if it's a tent, this is the direction...

There is the next pass behind the mountain. You could say there is a gate behind the mountain.

VB: Are you talking about this saddle?

BS: The tracks were quite clearly oriented to the place where they reached.

VB: How did they go relative to the ravine? This is what happens. If this is a tent, but the contour lines, were they a little to the side?

Were they walking traversing the slope. Or in the direction of the ravine itself?

BS: I think in the direction of the ravine itself.

VB: That is, they were centered along the ravine?

BS: Yes. The tracks weren't in single file either. They were... in a line, each running along their own trajectory. As I understand it. I suppose they were being driven hard by the wind at their backs. And they had no shoes at all - someone had one felt boot, someone had socks, someone else I don't know... . In my opinion, no one had any serious shoes.

VB: As far as I remember from my practice, the tracks - this kind of crust, some amount of loose snow.

When a person steps, he presses down and leaves a hole like this.

Then, when it blows away, a clear column and footprint remain.

As far as I understand, there were tracks like that, or something else?

BS: There were tracks, but.... we are not trackers. There were tracks, but we did not notice any peculiarities.

VB: Well, they were in the form of these pillars, or?

BS: No!

VB: Were they depressions?

BS: Yes!

VB: And they were not covered by snow.

BS: I have repeated to you many times that the snow was quite far from the tent itself, until the first trees appeared.

VB: There was no fresh snow as such?. So they disappeared where in the forest, where a layer of fresh snow appeared.

BS: On the contrary. They appeared in the forest.

VB: So they weren't there at all on the crust? On the crust - in the form of a depression?

BS: Yes.

VB: Okay, and did you see tracks on the loose snow in the direction of the fire? At what distance? Did they go straight to the fire?

BS: Tracks? I can't say for sure. Since we "blew" from the tent to our camp along these same tracks... We got on skis, and not like alpine skiers, but like "cows"... Since the skis were flat. We weren't skiers then... That's why we went to the right from the Dyatlov Pass.

VB: And did they go to the left? Boris Efimovich, were you wearing boots? Boots with overshoes? Or just in boots?

BS: Just in boots.

VB: If some kind of "boot" track appeared, then it was most likely yours.?

BS: Appeared? For whom did it appear?

VB: For the next ones.

BS: For the next ones - they could clearly see our tracks. That's why we didn't even think about it. We walked for a short time.

VB: And did you walk from the tent?

BS: A little bit on foot, but then we quickly put on skis and "got through the drafts". We also climbed up on skis, not on foot. A gentle slope. That's why it's not serious to talk about serious avalanches there. On the contrary...

VB: Were the victims dragged from Auspiya? From camps?

BS: Yes. All of them, those that were found, were first lowered. Then a helicopter landed on the pass. On the day they were taken away, there was a terrible wind!

VB: Did the helicopter fly up from this side?

BS: It managed to land.

VB: Was it landing or hovering?

BS: No, it was landing.

VB: Right on the crust!

BS: Yes. It sat normally on the pass.

VB: Were there rocky ledges there?

BS: Where, near the tent?

VB: No, where the helicopter landed.

BS: I don’t remember.

VB: And how is it here?

BS: No, there it wasn’t instantaneous. It wasn’t like the helicopter landed and we ran to get the cargo. They were stored there and picked up later. I probably exaggerated a bit: there was a hurricane-force wind when we were dragging them. And the helicopter landed, perhaps, the next day. I can’t remember it clearly. I can’t. But there was no such situation when a helicopter was flying and the pilot shouted: “My working day is ending!” And, moreover, I can’t remember whether I participated in the procedure of loading the corpses into the helicopter, or whether other people did it. To see how the helicopter stood.

VB: There is a photo of the helicopter.

BS: Is this in the area of ​​the pass?

VB: Yes. And here are more photos of the rescuers.. So.... who is this?

BS: Someone from the locals, from Mansi.

VB: Now here's a question about the terrain: The slope there is so gentle. Were there any ledges or rock drops where you could "break"?

BS: If there were, then very few. There were no proper "mountaineering drops".

VB: Even two meters is enough there. Were there two-meter drops?

BS: I don't think so... Well, although half a meter is enough to injure a leg, trip and injure a head... Well, there were probably such differences. But there was no "deep snow" as such, and there were no earthen slopes. I don't remember any parts of the slope being simply exposed. This is all only at the beginning - the first 600, maximum 800 m from the tent, where the slope is clean and treeless. After that, everything is flat...

VB: As for head injuries, due to the nature of our work, we dealt with this with the medics. Even a fall from a height of one and a half meters onto a concentrator, for example, a stone can lead to the injuries that are recorded in the autopsy report, say, of Thibault.. But people don't believe it.

BS: Why?

VB: Well, of course, all such healthy people. How could they... and why?.. It's less clear with the ribs, since I know the mechanics of this worse. Although, apparently, even smaller loads are needed for the ribs. A spatial beam, with stress concentration, should break no worse than a head.

BS: Ribs are also easy to break. If you're not wearing shoes, if there's a stone there, or a snag...

VB: Actually, I have a suspicion that 99% of all these adventures took place in the dark. Because - you can get attached to the watch!

BS: No, well, I think that this is an indisputable fact. I can back this up. They were undressed. Then, we analyzed when they last ate. Plus, there was very short daylight....

VB: That's what I'm talking about too, I looked at the sunrise-dawn chart: the beginning of twilight in the morning (not sunrise yet) - 8.14; sunrise - 8.56 - when the sun began to cross the horizon, and this one, not the mountain horizon, but the average one. Sunset - 15.54 - that is, 5 minutes to 4, and the end of evening twilight - 17.02.

BS: You're talking about the morning ones. The evening ones are when they came, settled down, ate and lay down. They slept for some time, an hour or two... But the fact that it wasn't in the morning... I don't believe in such fairy tales that half of the people got dressed... I think that all this happened while they were sleeping.

VB: Of course!

BS: If it was while they were sleeping, it's definitely dark.

VB: Moreover, if you rely on their watches, it turns out that everyone is in the dark. Forgive me, if twilight ends at 5 p.m., and... at minus 20 with wind, then survival time... Of course. It is measured in hours, especially when working. True, there is such a subtlety. When working, they lose a lot of heat and strength. I have a version of why Krivonischenko and Doroshenko were the first to die - they got there first and lit a fire, got wet, had worked intensively before that and when they lit a fire they got cold. And plus the oppressive influence of the cold - before that it took them at least two hours to get from the tent to the fire site.

BS: Oh, what are you saying? I think it was much less. They definitely "scuttled" down....

VB: Okay, look how deep the snow was down there, below the forest line. Was it possible to walk there?

BS: It was possible.

VB: Have you sunk knee-deep or deeper?

BS: But don't forget, it's been a month!.. What they had - God knows!

VB: But I don't believe that when they were there there was no snow at all, but in a month it had piled up about one and a half meters... well. It could have piled up a little less than a meter, but there was about the same amount before that. I'm talking about uncompacted snow, the depth of which you fell into while walking.

BS: For God's sake, let it be so. If we assume that the distance from the tent to the fire is 1.5 km, of which about 800 meters is a slope on which there was an insignificant amount of fresh snow ....

VB: So about half is the length of the "run"..?

BS: About 700-600 meters. 800, they fled.... Well, if we assume that there was some kind of incomprehensible phenomenon like "neutron weapons" back then....

VB: Oh my God, where did that come from?!

BS: We had already established that there was nothing unusual in that place by nature. At least in winter. They weren't letting people in there in summer.

VB: And do you know the reason? At least, how did they explain it?

BS: Well, they weren't letting people in, that's all. Well, what could have been the reasons in the "Soviet era"? They weren't letting people in, that's all!

VB: And was the area closed specifically after that incident? Definitely after that?

BS: Was the area closed? I can't say for sure, because after that incident I left tourism for mountaineering. And I never had any desire to go on a skiing trip.... It was quite a tragic thing then.... Well, we were not close friends, although.... We were in Sayan with Dubinina the year before, we were also in Sayan with Doroshenko, and with Zina Kolmogorova. With the rest... I knew the rest simply as outstanding figures! Well - this is Dyatlov. I did not know several people. I knew Krivonischenko only through his younger brother... They were "significantly" older than us (by 2-3 years, - ed.). Therefore, if these close friends had died, I might have made it the next year. Then we spent a long time there.... There was no desire. If there had been a desire to get there, would we have made it or not - I don't know. There is no answer to this question. Then, a few years later, we started to get confused. I know many tourists from Sverdlovsk who went into mountaineering - my friends, there, but I remember that there, at the institute, they were collecting money and wanted to put up a monument. The authorities - local or from Ivdel, or regional - forbade it. As a result, when they forbade it, all sorts of rumors arise that someone broke through there in the summer, and that the nature there was completely different.

VB: That there are traces of an "atomic explosion" higher than the trees...?

BS: Therefore, how much "chatter" there is, how much truth there is, I don't know. I had no experience of examining dead bodies before... They called him in for identification. Doroshenko's mother did not recognize him.

VB: Frost really disfigures.

BS: Doroshenko was first identified by... a girlfriend. After that, his mother recognized him too. When they were buried, everyone noticed some unusual color. Then they wrote that they were opened, that they didn't have time to open them, that there was a lot of... various radiation there

VB: Interesting....

BS: Well, we, the rank and file, knew less than the leadership. So, when a day or two after the tent was discovered, a bunch of people had gathered. They began to use us, "snot-nosed kids", only for heavy work - to walk around with a probe somewhere, to look for a labaz somewhere... And Zhenya Maslennikov took charge - he was no longer a student by then. He still knew more than we, the rank and file rescuers. So, Vadik Brusnitsyn and I, who had spent more time there, were immediately sent to look for this labaz... Climbers began to arrive there to replace us. Because of this, we were dragged to the prosecutor's office more than once, Vadik twice, and me three times. Well, quite benevolently - they didn't make any claims against us - well, they killed us or something... But with such a goal - well, you guys are young, you were in a state of shock there, you could have forgotten something... Well, write it all again.

VB: They like that!

BS: Well, they did this to me three times. And when Vadik and I were there together, and when this investigator... who knows... went out somewhere. And at the same time this case... there were already several volumes, - it was lying on the table, and we had a clean sheet of paper, and we wrote down what we remembered... And he compared it, whether it was similar to the previous one, or not... Well, when he went out, our childish curiosity overcame fear, and we climbed into this folder. And we saw something there that looked like Maslennikov's "non-disclosure" receipt. What "non-disclosure?"..

VB: This is the so-called "investigative secret".

BS: That is, I know for sure that no one forced me, I did not write any receipts.

VB: It's just that Maslennikov had more information concentrated..

BS: Of course, since Maslennikov led the entire rescue group. But, in addition, he was not only a master of sports, he was also a "party boss". Well, the party simply trusted him more than us, "brats". And in what sense did they trust him. They told him: "Don't let these "puppies", these "brats" anywhere!".... Well, what could have been there, I don't know. I don't really believe in "these" natural things. That they could have been sleeping.... In this fantastic fear.... To cut the tent and run "naked" down to experienced people. Who knew perfectly well how all this could end.... One had to be very scared. Who could have scared them? A natural phenomenon, or some kind of test? There were all sorts of versions. And technical ones - I've been studying trajectories all my life - were there any strategic trajectories, even emergency ones - they couldn't have gotten there. Even emergency ones. But some small ones, operational-tactical missiles, that's what could possibly have been...

VB: I recently had a conversation on an Internet forum.... Since for me, you can get as much information on missile and aviation topics as you want, I looked at what was related to 1959, that is, what was in the composition, in service, what had been developed, that is, what had at least begun to be produced, even prototypes - what could be put to testing. I got a list of 10-12 products, and only one could fly there. But it could not fly there in any way. This is the R-7 from Baikonur. Well, how could these seven get there from Baikonur?

BS: No! It definitely could not have gotten there from Baikonur.

VB: And the rest, excuse me, what is that? There are missiles with a maximum range of 1.5 thousand kilometers.

BS: Well, half a thousand is enough.

VB: And where from?

BS: Well, air defense.

VB: Air defense does not fly at half a thousand. Even the S-75s, if they were somewhere nearby, - they were only in experimental operation at the testing grounds. The S-75 is a missile that shoots upward. And even if we assume that it went to the side, and the self-destructor did not work, then how far could it have gone? 100 km to the side???. Unlikely, even at the limit! Yes, even more than twice as far as can be realistically. Ha, an anti-aircraft missile at 100 km!

BS: .... If you look at something else .... Well, aviation?

VB: Where from? A strategic aircraft flew by? And where is the wreckage? Do you think that it was not even invisible, but a ghost?

BS: Well, it didn't fall....

VB: And what aircraft? IL-28?

BS: No, I'm saying: not a test of some missile, but a test from some aircraft. Something was dropped from the aircraft.

VB: Why did they drop it? The devil where? So that it couldn't be seen or measured?

BS: No, it's just that this should be considered an emergency situation.

VB: Even in an emergency situation it's impossible, I don't know when they appeared, but there are only 2 airfields nearby (Vuktyl and Ivdel), I don't know what's on them now. But in 1958, the maximum they could have was a MIG-15, and in the worst case, an IL-28. But to fly here even from Ivdel.... it's far. And the plane still has to return to the airfield.

BS: Well, now we come back to that, when then, after living for three weeks, in the evening, when the whole tent is packed with people and there's nothing to do... there's no weather, there's no this, so they sit and "shoot" this.... Well, we were the youngest, but there were older ones there. But even if we assume that they were better informed than we were. Maslennikov, for example.

VB: And where did Maslennikov work?

BS: At the time this whole story happened, he worked at VIZ - either as a party organizer or as a chief mechanic.

VB: And is that VIZ?

BS: Verkh Isetskiy Metallurgical Plant (VIZ - ed.)... Yekaterinburg.

VB: What were they doing there?.

BS: Who, Maslennikov?

VB: No, the plant.

BS: The plant? - Transformer steel.

VB: Ah! I see.

BS: Yes, the famous plant, they still make very good transformer steel there.

VB: Boris Efimovich, I'll come at it from a different angle now - look, what types of weapons could have been there? I don't see anything at all that could have happened! Not even close.

BS: Well, let's start with the fact that these were secrets inaccessible to me.... from my first year until today.. Even "hanging around" somewhere in this area....

VB: Until today? I seriously doubt it! Do you see what kind of weapon this is that hasn't appeared anywhere for half a century?

BS: Well, okay, what's your version?

VB: My version is something like this. Now, they are working on so-called "non-lethal" weapons, for example, in the States, two laboratories - Los Alamos and... Livermore Laboratory of the US Navy. Including infrasound. The principle of operation is elementary. If you give out sufficient, but small power at frequencies of 6-7 Hz, then it gets into resonance of the CNS heart rate control circuit.... ..

BS: That is,.... I understand, I understand....

VB: The signs of something like this are absolutely the same.... they didn't do this back then, - only in the last 10 years. So, Andrey Chupikin, who was referred to here, went to the pass, and found this thing in the Otorten area, which is known as an acoustic whistle. Here.

It is enough to have two walls, and a profile like this. And with such a wind direction, if the profile and the wind direction coincide, it will generate some frequency like an organ pipe. Sound - not sound, that's another question. It depends on its parameters, that is, on the dimensions.

BS: Which can lead to horror.

VB: A classic case. Johann Sebastian Bach, in his time, - in one of his cantatas it was necessary to convey a feeling of horror to his listeners. He purely intuitively, like all geniuses .... He purely intuitively "banged" on the pipe at 7 Hertz on his organ. The effect was such that the audience in panic began to run away from this church where all this was, and created a terrible panic at the doors. It seems that no one was crushed there, but the crush was such that they could well have crushed someone. I read Ergonomics at MAI, this case was told to me by Petr Yakovlevich Shlain, he was the deputy head of the Scientific Research Institute of AO for Science in Kalinin. Do you know such an organization? It is the ergonomic laboratory of the Air Force. That is where they were studying approximately these or similar problems. So, such a thing is quite possible. And the signs, in general, are absolutely the same. There are several stages: pre-critical, when a person simply has a powerful feeling of anxiety. And he begins, as they say, to "rush about". If you "squeeze" him out in time or intensity, he goes into a critical phase, when a person simply does not control himself. Very similar! Why would they suddenly start cutting the tent like that?

BS: Well, I'm inclined to think that it wasn't some kind of regular.... no bears there, no criminals... By the way, besides everything else, there were several helicopters patrolling the entire area.

VB: Were they search helicopters or some kind of preventative ones?

BS: No, that's when it all started. They patrolled the entire area. And they scanned the area at intervals of about 5 km. And the helicopter pilots were able to catch two escaped convicts during that time.

VB: Do they start running in the winter?

BS: They never stopped running.

VB: But that's deadly for an unprepared person!

BS: So. Well, what then? Tourists do go... Why this same... escapee....

VB: This is a completely different level of preparation! Including material.

BS: Well, at least they thought they were being looked for. The helicopter pilots thought they were tourists. And they landed on some pass or on a decline. They decided they were being looked for. In general, hands up and... Everyone told us that there was "Ivdellag". Not every day, but escapes happened. And they happen.

VB: Yes, but a person runs in winter, and where would he run? - To civilization, so as not to move around on his own! And go into the taiga?...

BS: I'm not saying that they were caught there, on Otorten. They had a route from the camp to the village. After all, they didn't know where they were.

VB: Were they following the Mansi trail there?

BS: No, well, they didn't fly to Otorten by helicopter... To Lozva, to Auspiya... That is, they came out into a populated area. Well. somewhere, from where Yudin returned, somewhere else there were some rare transports.... That is, already populated, then there are the last one or two hundred kilometers of unpopulated.

VB: It's not really like that there.

BS: What's wrong?

VB: Look at what it turns out on the map: Vizhay is the last populated area where there is some kind of transport.

BS: State transport?

VB: More or less regular.

BS: After that, they went by car....

VB: After that, they drove 41 kilometers, and from 41 kilometers to the Second Northern they got there by horse. So, the last distance is.... 50 kilometers or more. It's one thing when they leave Vizhay, knowing what kind of transport goes there. It's another thing when a person leaves from there. That is, it is considered that there is no transport here. ... As for the Second Northern, the village there was already abandoned back then... To count on it is only for a roof over your head. And this road they were driving on - a snowfall will pass, it will sweep a little, then it is generally unknown how to move there.

BS: But it's still not thousands of kilometers. That's dozens.

VB: On the other hand, two dozen kilometers would be enough to freeze.

BS: Well, when the Dyatlov group disappeared, all these search groups - from the southernmost to this Otorten had to land and each on its own piece and inspect everything. That's it. That's why the helicopter flew from their entry point into the forest to the northernmost point. The route was known, so it made several flights.

VB: And another question. Did you fly out from Vizhay?

BS: No. From Ivdel.

VB: Yes, yes, from Ivdel I wanted to say. Was there a helicopter airfield there, or were there planes there?

BS: We flew in from Sverdlovsk.

VB: Were there military planes there?

BS: Probably, yes.... We flew in on AN. It was my first flight. They took us somewhere to sleep, and in the morning to the helicopter, and that's it - we flew. So where, around, what...

VB: No, what I mean is: where could the nearest aircraft fly from? - Only from there! Another airfield, Vuktylsky, is about 800 kilometers away. Well, of course, for the IL-28 it's not the limit, but, in general, it's quite far. Although 1600 - back and forth is still... more than at the limit.

BS: That's why I don't know if anyone was found in the archives of our Ministry of Defense on this matter.... Well, I had a meeting... even our regional party bosses weren't in the know. At that time. When all this was happening, there was a certain Kirilenko there. He generally forbade everything. And here in Moscow I have the so-called Sverdlovsk fellowship of graduates and in our company, besides Ryzhkov and Yeltsin, there is a certain Ryabov Yakov Petrovich. If you remember, he was the first secretary of the Central Committee.

VB: The name sounds familiar.

BS: Deputy for armaments.

VB: Ah! I see..

BS: He is still a living functionary. Yeltsin became the regional committee secretary.

VB: After Kirilenko?

BS: Ryabov after Kirilenko. And Yeltsin after Ryabov. Ryabov left for Moscow. Yeltsin stayed in Sverdlovsk. So we had the Sverdlovsk film studio, so, on the next anniversary... The thirtieth anniversary, it must have been... Now it will be the fiftieth anniversary... 59th... Well, every 5-10 years these... solar flares begin! And so the Sverdlovsk film studio made some "filmmaker", they brought him here for a while.... And our main organizer of this community, a certain Lev Malyugin, - he is a doctor at the Institute of Management Problems, - he calls me and says: "Bor!.." - and it was summer, everyone was on vacation here and there, here, he says, there will be a small gathering. And a small one, and not at the Institute of Management Problems, where his second place of work is on Kropotkinskaya.... There is another Sverdlovsk resident here.... There is a non-ferrous metals plant there, either for aluminum or copper. So, there is a museum at it. And this former Sverdlovsk resident, he is, as it were, the director of this museum. It is he who provides the premises....

VB: This film.... This is the Ural Television Agency. This is TAU....

BS: Yes. This film, they brought it and decided to show it here....

VB: And they didn't leave a copy of it?

BS: No.

VB: Because I only know about it from retellings. There are a lot of "exaggerations" there.

BS: I came, there were very few people... well, about ten people. Including Ryabov. I was late, they were already talking there, Ryabov, as I understand it, is the secretary of the regional committee! And it happened in "his" region. Although after that he became... But he didn't know a damn thing! I later: "Yakov Petrovich! It's all in the past.... What do you know?.." No.... Either all of this was destroyed in the archives, or why the hell did he need all of this.... That is, Kirilenko, maybe this was related - they didn't allow us to stop these search operations. Everyone spoke in one voice, and this seems to correspond to the truth, what Nikita Sergeyevich said: "Search until you find!" Although Senka Baskin....

VB: I can't find any of these Moscow Central Council members. Although I asked Stukov, and Oleg Savelyev....

BS: No, you won't find Baskin - he died many years ago

VB: I can't find any "tails" from them. Stukov, you probably knew?

BS: No.

VB: He was the head of the security department of the tourist events of the Central Council for Tourism about twenty years ago.... Oleg Savelyev is a good friend of mine, who worked there as his deputy.

BS: No, I'm telling you that after these search operations in the spring we went to the mountains for the first time and.... I never came back from them. I became a master of sports in mountaineering.... Until my health problems started.... I was forced to stop.... That's it. And then Baskin arrived.... And Semyon Borisovich, - the head of the rescue service in the Caucasus at that time. And then they recommended that we stop the search until the snow melts.... It's forbidden! Colonel Ortyukov lived there almost constantly - they gave him the nickname "Otorten", Colonel "Otorton"! He was the head of our military department, or simply at the department.... since it was divided into two - the tankers, and we, the navigators. He was in that unit.... And so, the teams... changed every 10-15 days. They recruited volunteers there, from the Sverdlovsk climbers.... Well, until it melted. Until it melted away... It all stopped... It all happened, of course, they didn't write about it in the newspapers, but... There were rumors... Nikita Sergeyevich: "Look. Until you find them!.." Because they said all sorts of fantastic stories there, like: "They weren't found, they were there without shoes, without clothes, without pants through the North Pole to Scandinavia.... And from there to America...". So the story was drawn out... So the last ones, the last ones, who haven't been found yet, who were there... it all started to turn into a circus.

VB: All this is familiar.

BS: They were already smuggling drinks there.... They still had to go from one valley to another.... It dragged on... So that's how it was. So that's what I started to "summarize"... Well, so, this secretary of the Politburo, former deputy for the military-industrial complex, former secretary of the regional committee, where all this happened... I just looked him in the eyes, in the face, - it didn't seem to me that he was hiding anything.

VB: Yes, from experience of conducting several such large rescue operations: the party bosses always didn't give a damn about all this..

BS: I meant something a little different. He was not the "supreme" of Yekaterinburg and the region at that time. Kirilenko was. Whether Kirilenko knew from the same Khrushchev about the reasons for what happened, I don't know. But, unlike the "Third Reich", where all the murders were registered in "granary books", - all this, if it didn't burn, could be found. Ours, starting with the Cheka, understood that they were doing the wrong thing.... The fascists thought that they were doing the "right thing". After all, killing Jews, gypsies.... Killing was considered the "right thing".

VB: The German mentality is like this: "Order everywhere!"

BS: That's why I have a suspicion that if there's something fishy here... There must have been something fishy after all.

VB: Well, I can't find any reasons at all! What could these reasons be?... I'd rather believe in a UFO than in testing some kind of weapon, even a random one. There's nowhere to fly from! And then, okay, the same tests. Some kind of explosion. What could have scared them so much? It's useless to run after it's already exploded.

BS: After the explosion? Yes, that goes without saying.

VB: True, there is one such subtle point. The conditions there: let's say it's snowing a bit, it's cold, it's night. If we drive them away from the tent by 10 meters, would they be able to return in the dark, what do you think?

BS: Now, if there was a wind like the one we had when we dragged them to the pass....

VB: Let it be weaker.

BS: And they without poles and without shoes? I don't think so....

VB: I don't mean so much in terms of wind loads. How much in terms of visibility

BS: In terms of visibility? Well, it's really hard to go up there! It's crust! Crust! Well, try taking a step there in woolen or cotton socks if you can't knock out a hole. Therefore, if something drove them out of the tent. And let's say, in a couple of minutes, let's say....

VB: Now that's the next point! I'm taking a purely energetic aspect....

BS: We also looked at this point. Some extraordinary horror drove you out of the tent.

VB: The whole question is in the duration of the factor's impact. If it continues, people run further.

BS: No, let's say that it wasn't long. Not to move 10 meters from the tent and it all ended - rather, maybe it was longer, longer... they measured his steps, whether he was running or walking.

VB: These are investigators....

BS: Most likely, they ran with as much strength as they had. Well, let's say they ran half a kilometer. And this wild sound, or this wild light, which is frightening....

VB: The saddest thing is that infrasound impact is that there is no audible sound. This is a psychological impact

BS: It stopped, let's say, it stopped.

VB: They could have gone into the shade, where it would all go away.... For example, here, there's a ravine.

BS: We tried to go back, and it appeared again.

VB: The whole question is in the stability of the wind. If the wind was stable. Even, then yes! But if the wind changed.... If it's such a whistle, then the angle of the wind direction at which it will work is small.

BS: You see, there's a chance that something like that happened.... This horror.... What led them to flee the tent, that it ended. Because many investigators, searchers said: by the direction of movement, by the persistence of the one scratching upward....

VB: This is for those three

BS: Dyatlov - was returning, so to speak. He was going up the mountain. Well, he and Zina had some kind of corresponding relationship, Either he went to look for her. Or...

VB: I tried to find logic here....

BS: It can be assumed that this horror that prompted them to flee - that it stopped. After some time. After how much? If it was at night, or something there at night during the run... there were dents on the head...

VB: Can I imagine the logic of this event, as I understand it? "Something" happens that makes them leave the tent. Let's leave "this" alone for now. They start to run away.... If it is infrasound, it acts at a fairly large distance. They need to go into the ravine, or so that this thing would be shielded....

BS: Either it had to stop, or it....

VB: Yes, or it had to stop. The probability of this, however, is less. Then, after some time, when they lost their bearings - 10 meters is enough here, the effect of the factor ceased, they begin to figure out what to do? There is no visibility, no light....

BS: And then there is the wind!

VB: All the more so. You won't be able to go back if the wind was still blowing, what else can they do? They have only one reference point - the relief. That is, a person with a tactile apparatus very clearly feels even the slightest depression. Then they start to center, i.e. go along this ravine.

Can they communicate with each other? Well, if there was wind, from similar conditions that I found myself in, then the maximum 10 meters at which they could shout, and... They probably gathered. In such a situation, after the effect of the factor ceased, they should have gathered and thought about what to do next. Especially if something else happened....

BS: Well, if not all, then some.

VB: If not all, then most. Here is my assumption that Dyatlov, or someone else, began to establish some kind of order. Order means that there is a vanguard, and a group or one of the rear ones. And, of course, the organization of the movement of the rest of the group. So, what could have happened? Slobodin, most likely, was appointed to be the rear one. He is a healthy guy, he should have followed the whole group. If the group went forward, then there were probably more than ten meters between the first and the last. The group continues to move on and gets into a situation where someone falls and gets injured. Somewhere else, someone could also fall head-on on a rock and get injured, or even two at once. And what are the conditions there? It's dark, you can't see anything. Someone went alone... Bang! Some strange sounds are heard... Someone realized, or saw that a person fell there and went to help him. Without seeing what was underfoot, the second one could have flown there too....

BS: No, there were no such relief conditions there....

VB: There were none at all, where could they have received such injuries? Okay, the question is: where then could they have received such injuries? I imagine it like this, look. Here, there is some kind of stone. Or another concentrator. A man falls on his chest.... If they are walking together.... Kolmogorova?..

BS: Dubinina!

VB: Dubinina and .... Zolotaryov.

BS: Kolmogorova was found closest to the tent....

VB: I don't remember everyone's last name well. So, if Dubinina and Zolotaryov were walking next to each other, then somewhere they could have fallen on a protruding slab, or on some other ledge, I don't know yet which one.... The fact is that the consistency of the terrain here should be suitable.... From what I saw in Chupikin's photo, they could have easily received bilateral rib fractures.... That's one thing, then, if Thibeaux-Brignolle was walking ahead of everyone, or was clearing the way for part of the group somewhere to the side.... He could easily have fallen head first on a rock. And the injury that was described in the forensic expert's report could well have been received by him. I showed the report to the military doctors with whom we worked on the problems of injury biomechanics, you probably know the Stupakov firm? It is now called the Institute of Aviation and Space Medicine. We used to work with them - it is a firm that deals with aviation medical problems, practically in all areas. Starting from injuries and ending with survival, and so on... Rehabilitation of flight personnel after receiving various troubles from stress to injuries and heart attacks... Everyone says unequivocally that it is very similar to falling on a concentrator (like a stone) head first at a relatively low speed, about 6..8 m/s. But the height could not have been great, within the limit of about 3 m, because there is....

End of recording.