On behalf of the forum crew, let me welcome you aboard Dyatlov Pass Forum. The forum is a spin off from this message board. We’ve just hit our cruising altitude of 3000 posts and I have turned off the ability to leave messages, which means you are now free to move about the forum. However, for your own benefit, please register in case you encounter any unexpected facts or thoughts you might want to comment on or share with us.
Though I’ve turned off the maintenance mode, please note the “no cursing” light will remain on throughout the session, in compliance with FA (Forum Administration) regulations. You may not litter the boards and mods prohibit tampering with the spam detectors. Feel free to babble, tattle and preach on, though. Those aren’t forum crimes. Not yet!
On behalf of your forum crew, please, sit back and enjoy your trip.
I call BS my friend. I told you several times, thats what general discussion is for... There is no isolation.
You are simply being a pissy-pants because its not called 'The BL Board" and you know it. FYI, I will fully represent the BL theory for you in the BL and UFO section.. No worries mate, nobody 'needs' to cater to you and kiss your royal behind. You had your chance...Know what Im saying?
Your not a fan of people having somewhere to discuss and develop NON BL theories. Fact
Admin
06-10-2017 09:45 (GMT)
@Nigel Evans Write a book and make a movie while you're at it.
Nigel Evans
06-10-2017 09:36 (GMT)
No i'm still seeing fragmentation here, the virtue in the single thread that we have had todate is that a lot of good points come out of the contest of ideas, it creates a positive energy. If everyone is silo'ed in their own world you don't get the contest. I'm not a fan. Also i'm thinking of my own site for the BL theory . I'm a software developer by profession and interested in developing in the MEAN stack so i'll let you know if/when i've got something to show, might take a while depending on other things.
Loose-Cannon
05-10-2017 18:11 (GMT)
Heck... If we merge Theories any further, the next thing to be merged will likely be BL and UFO. Lol
Loose-Cannon
05-10-2017 18:02 (GMT)
Nigel.
I don't think you realize that if you create a thread... You can change the original post at ANY TIME. I addition, if you were the moderator of the BL section, welp... You can move crap around all ya want in thar.
Again... General Discussion is where you will likely see alot of discussion. The individual (many merged) are where you go to talk only bl with your bl buddies, if you think that the bl section will be a ghost town.... I guess the theory needs improvement?
Its simple. Create a master post laying out your entire theory, sticky it so its at the top for all to see and never goes to page 2 etc. Modify it all ya want.... Lock it... Whatever!
Go to the General discussion board for mixing, matching, new theory ideas, combining, debating.... you know...GENERAL DISCUSSION.
Why would you be intimidated by other theories having their own discussion area where people can take a break from BL and expand their own ideas without heckling?
Admin
05-10-2017 17:59 (GMT)
@Nigel Evans Since you are registered already, can you recount in a post the latest еxpose of the BL theory so I can update the site and we can have it at the beginning of the discussion. Don't think about the structure. Look how it's gonna look in a year time. http://taina.li
Nigel Evans
05-10-2017 17:50 (GMT)
@Admin - "You do realize that anything further down past 20 posts is lost for the posterity."
That's because the "THEORIES" section should be updatable by the nominated mentor.
Currently it's all too clumsy. I've refined the BL theory several times since that section was last changed.
That's how i would want it, a general discussion area and then a read only area for each theory to capture the argument todate. Having a seperate discussion area per theory is going to make things look lonely imo.
@Lyndasez - the interview is in "Journey to Dyatlov Pass, Keith McClosky".
Admin
05-10-2017 16:41 (GMT)
Loose Cannon is right. This section has long outgrown it's container and taken a wrong turn at some point. Your activity brought the idea of a forum. What you do is a discussion which can only be managed by multiple threads and not what we have now. You do realize that anything further down past 20 posts is lost for the posterity. All the conversations are lost as threads. No topics no nothing.
Loose-Cannon
05-10-2017 12:58 (GMT)
#1 Again, the forum has a GENERAL DISCUSSION board in the Theories section. I have already merged many theories, and the entire point is to not have so much bleeding over and domination of the narrative just to push an agenda and silence others. Duplicating whats going on here is not tye objective.
#2 Call me crazy, but I don't think it was ever the owners intention to have a 4 mile long discussion/debate on a single page. Rather for it to be.... For comments. Namely on the site. As in.... "Hey, nice job and very informative", or "this is a great site with lots of information" etc.
#3 if you have input (always welcome) on the board structure, perhaps the place to discuss it is..... On the forum. Just a crazy thought.
In fact, I may recommend to Admin that this comment page be locked up. It's a vulnerability as a whole having no verification or registration and has diverged greatly from what I believe was the original intention.
Lyndasez
05-10-2017 11:44 (GMT)
@Nigel, Re: forum Wouldn’t a simple COVERUP topic address notions of true or false since we have only intuition to go on?
Also, where is this Ivanov bossmans interview located? Hibinaud? Name?
**thanks for the clarification on rav3.
Nigel Evans
05-10-2017 10:03 (GMT)
Just my thoughts on the new forum. I think you're fragmenting the discussion too much. Also you need a hierarchy of subjects. Based on the interview with Ivanov's boss either there was a state coverup or the interview is false. So you need a tree to cater for true or false on this "big" fact.
If true - then it rules out most of the theories, you are left with things the state must coverup- military accident, natural phenomena useful to the military (like BL), aliens perhaps. If false then all theories are possible.
Nigel Evans
05-10-2017 09:52 (GMT)
@Lyndasez - "Can someone answer who is who, left to right in this photo?"
Kolevatov body (upper left) was found right next to Zolotaryov's as if the latter was carrying or protecting him. Tibo's body was positioned aside of them lower downstream
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (p. 76). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
Nigel Evans
05-10-2017 09:48 (GMT)
@Lyndasez - "Don’t Go There... It knocked your BL theory outta the park...you couldn’t answer the heavy question — why did they run and stay away." Because the BL didn't more from the tent, hence the hot spot???
"You punked out ...not me." dream on darling .
Loose-Cannon
04-10-2017 18:40 (GMT)
What makes a forum successful is people talking. Content. Could take months, could be years. Its Ultimately up to you guys/gals to make the best of an opportunity. .
The other forum I started a few years ago has 38,560 Posts in 3,297 Topics by 611 Members.
KMM
04-10-2017 17:44 (GMT)
Lyndasez 04-10-2017 17:00 (GMT) @KMM, Where’s the action? Went there ...and got stuck somewhere...
Just register there, It still gathering members, it will pick up
Lyndasez
04-10-2017 17:00 (GMT)
@KMM, Where’s the action? Went there ...and got stuck somewhere...
KMM
04-10-2017 16:54 (GMT)
@Lyndasez , hey come on over to the forum, you will catch on fast
Make a good informative post in a section, and you may find it stickied at the top of that board.
Loose-Cannon
02-10-2017 23:49 (GMT)
Or... its just a screen name.
You really need to get a grip man. Just saying.
John Wolfe
02-10-2017 23:39 (GMT)
note to Amin: the new map on home page is good -- could you supply more on the region and Russia in general? Not knowing Soviet geography, its difficult to find things on the internet. (spent an hour - still confused) Some detailed maps with cities and distances -- locations of former gulags, train lines, military camps and etc. would help.
John Wolfe
02-10-2017 23:29 (GMT)
I won't have a problem with rule # 9 unless "loose cannon" posts under my name -- you / and administrator, should have no problem telling the difference -- the real JW doesn't curse people and doesn't claim to speak for them either. Just read some of my posts from the last few months -- and then read Loose Cannon. By the way has anyone out there read any Victor Hugo ?
A loose cannon refers to a cannon which gets dislocated and moves about randomly on the decks of a battleship, creating a hazard to crew and equipment.
A famous literary depiction of a loose cannon appears in Victor Hugo's 1874 novel "Ninety-Three", whose plot is set during the French Revolution. In a well-known episode, a ship of anti-revolutionary French Royalists is sailing towards Brittany, to aid the anti-revolutionary Chouannerie rebellion. While at sea, a sailor fails to properly secure his cannon, which rolls out of control and damages the ship. The sailor risks his life to secure the cannon and save the ship. The Marquis de Lantenac, leader of the Royalists, awards the man a medal for his bravery and then executes him (without trial) for failing in his duty.
--- nice guys, those French ---
The widespread publication of Hugo's book, both in the original French and in translation to various other languages, helped make the concept of a loose cannon more well-known. It has eventually developed a metaphorical meaning relating to a person who is acting in a wild and unpredictable manner and who constitutes as much danger to his or her own side as to the enemy.
-- or could be a danger to the new forum --
Loose-Cannon
02-10-2017 15:26 (GMT)
You may/may-not have noticed the admin has inserted a new (forum) button in the navigation bar at the top of this site.
KMM
02-10-2017 14:14 (GMT)
Loose-Cannon 02-10-2017 06:05 (GMT) Like I said... Its easy to have a General discussion board for basic theory talk. The subsections for individual victims simply hold relative information and a place to discuss them individually.... Thats why its condensed with subsections for each and will not dominate the index. The theories as of right now are not in subsections.
Basically you have a small rules and board information section, individual victim section..... Then all the theories. As of right now its very basic and not nearly as crazy as the one I linked to. That was simply an example of how its a dedicated DPI forum and not just a topic within a board of many other things... Like your two links.
Relax. Dont crap a Volvo just yet.
#1. Its more secure #2. Page load speeds will be instant because there wont be a 3 mile long blog type single thread #3. Its organized #4. Relative information are easily stickied in each section for quick reference #5. Pictures and vids are displayed directly within the thread and uploading is free without joining an image hosting site. #6. There is a full blown messaging system to privately message other users. #7. You can set an email notification of new replies to any thread you choose... Like ones your most interested in. #8. A full blown search function... Who doesn't like that?!?! #9. Rules. John Wolfe may have a very hard time with this one. Just sayin.
I can literally go on and on as to why a dedicated forum is.... A giod thing. Winking
That sounds OK to me!
Loose-Cannon
02-10-2017 06:05 (GMT)
Like I said... Its easy to have a General discussion board for basic theory talk. The subsections for individual victims simply hold relative information and a place to discuss them individually.... Thats why its condensed with subsections for each and will not dominate the index. The theories as of right now are not in subsections.
Basically you have a small rules and board information section, individual victim section..... Then all the theories. As of right now its very basic and not nearly as crazy as the one I linked to. That was simply an example of how its a dedicated DPI forum and not just a topic within a board of many other things... Like your two links.
Relax. Dont crap a Volvo just yet.
#1. Its more secure #2. Page load speeds will be instant because there wont be a 3 mile long blog type single thread #3. Its organized #4. Relative information are easily stickied in each section for quick reference #5. Pictures and vids are displayed directly within the thread and uploading is free without joining an image hosting site. #6. There is a full blown messaging system to privately message other users. #7. You can set an email notification of new replies to any thread you choose... Like ones your most interested in. #8. A full blown search function... Who doesn't like that?!?! #9. Rules. John Wolfe may have a very hard time with this one. Just sayin.
I can literally go on and on as to why a dedicated forum is.... A giod thing.
Lyndasez
02-10-2017 05:41 (GMT)
@LC, O man one section leads to a subsection of a gazillion categories...can’t even navigate ...1 or 2 measly replies ea...oof!
I give up...
Loose-Cannon
02-10-2017 05:25 (GMT)
It wont be anything like those. lol.
The admin is going to design their own theme, but this is a full blown forum, not just a blog section within a site.
Havent seen a list/structure idea from anyone else as of yet. Again.... its going to be how the admin says its going to be. I simply tossed some thing up. Some may go bye bye, some may be added.
Loose-Cannon
02-10-2017 04:43 (GMT)
Hmmm.... time for 'General Discussion' or 'create you own'
Lyndasez
02-10-2017 04:14 (GMT)
Wow that is ponderous!
If you sectioning off each of those theory categories into the forum?
I can easily combine my theory with 3 or 4 of those single catergories, an one not listed, not going to each section to discuss....
Loose-Cannon
02-10-2017 03:16 (GMT)
Basic board I have.... All subject to admin approval.
Genesis:. Rules. Introductions. Board Information .
Victims Discussion:. YURI DOROSHENKO. YURI KRIVONISCHENKO. IGOR DYATLOV. ZINAIDA KOLMOGOROVA. RUSTEM SLOBODIN. LYUDMILA DUBININA. SEMYON ZOLOTARYOV. ALEXANDER KOLEVATOV. NIKOLAI THIBEAUX.
Dyatlov Pass: (Factual Information). Materials of 1959. Photography. Case Files. Maps and charts. Diaries and letters. Events before the incident.
Materials Modern:. Publications / Media Video / Photography
Something tells me the forum will be simple and have no spam adds.
Its not like there is a trader section, vender section, feedback system, chatter box, retail section etc.
All Im currently doing is adjusting a ton of settings so it will work properly.
Also uploading several mods so that pictures are 100% up-loadable right from the posting window without having to join a photo hosting site and uploading it to there first. Also a Youtube mod so vids will play directly within the thread etc.
Basic stuffs.
Loose-Cannon
02-10-2017 00:57 (GMT)
@KMM . "Will our past comments still be there, or will we start off new ?"
Not sure what you mean... past comments still be on this page? Its up to the admin whether or not they keep this pages contents.
Loose-Cannon
01-10-2017 23:15 (GMT)
SZ is far right... cant remember who was spooning who on the left.
Lyndasez
01-10-2017 22:51 (GMT)
Since there doesn’t seem to be an independent pic of AlexK and only one small one of Tibi.
Can someone answer who is who, left to right in this photo?
I’ve seen posts that put Tibi at right because they see 2 watches...???? Thanks.
Loose-Cannon
01-10-2017 22:40 (GMT)
I just replaced nearly the entire AC system in my BMW... I'll try and address your questions in a few hrs. Ultimately, its up to the site owner. But I am sure we can use input as to what boards sections to add.
KMM
01-10-2017 22:32 (GMT)
Loose-Cannon 01-10-2017 21:10 (GMT) Don't stop talking now... It will be a few days or more until the forum is ready.
Will our past comments still be there, or will we start off new ?
Lyndasez
01-10-2017 22:15 (GMT)
@Nigel, {Ditto rabid reindeer section.}
Don’t Go There... It knocked your BL theory outta the park...you couldn’t answer the heavy question — why did they run and stay away. You punked out ...not me.
I also added if you want an espionage theory I’d do that too...so enough with the talkin big. ;c}
Lyndasez
01-10-2017 22:03 (GMT)
Loose-Cannon, If posters may be so bold as to weigh in on the forum construction ...I’d like to add my 2 cents.
Most of the DP forums that have 2”avatars & register info, fancy graphics, a gazillion categories, and bazillion photos clogging pages are largely defunct.
This comment section has the latest and most comments I’ve come across, due it’s simplicity— easy navigation, doesn’t hurt your eyes, can see many comments at once.
So my vote goes for simplicity.... :c)
Loose-Cannon
01-10-2017 21:10 (GMT)
Don't stop talking now... It will be a few days or more until the forum is ready.
Loose-Cannon
01-10-2017 14:57 (GMT)
DPI..... Dyatlov Pass Incident
Can be whatever you like.
Admin
01-10-2017 14:33 (GMT)
What are the first three characters supposed to be?
Loose-Cannon
01-10-2017 14:20 (GMT)
Came up with a temporary forum title/logo. Its up to admin whether they want to keep it or come up with something different. More/less this is just to have something there in the time being.
"I would recommend comrade Nigel as moderator of the BL section." I would recommend comrade Nigel as moderator of the hand to hand combat section as it wont need a lot of attention.
IVANOV
30-09-2017 17:06 (GMT)
Too Soon ?
Loose-Cannon
30-09-2017 15:24 (GMT)
Ok.. I will email you when I get off work.
Admin
30-09-2017 14:55 (GMT)
Lets do it Loose-Cannon. Can you contact me at the email I have given in the opening paragraph.
Loose-Cannon
30-09-2017 14:04 (GMT)
I would recommend comrade Nigel as moderator of the BL section.
Loose-Cannon
30-09-2017 13:49 (GMT)
Of course, I was thinking of doing it myself but I don't feel like owning another forum discussion board. I am however very experienced in setting them up and could do it for you... Rules, mods, board structure, permissions on and on... I would go with simple machines software.
Admin
30-09-2017 13:36 (GMT)
I may. Would you register?
Loose-Cannon
30-09-2017 12:38 (GMT)
@Admin .
Have you considered an actual discussion forum?
Zrk3907
30-09-2017 11:26 (GMT)
Picture #1-instead of 3 heads. 3 gloved finger tips?
Nigel Evans
30-09-2017 07:56 (GMT)
@Admin - I've no problem with IVANOV, presumably he gets the BL theory .
Admin
30-09-2017 07:10 (GMT)
Maybe I didn't get the joke, my apologies. Here is what I "censored"
IVANOV: Ivanov unleash attack-pterodactyl on peasant hikers.
KMM: SIR: have you concidered a pterodactyl laying an egg in front of the tent thus creating the warm spot ?
Loose-Cannon
30-09-2017 01:56 (GMT)
"Ivanov thought he knew the reason"
You know what they say about opinions.... He had several apparently, and UFO was at the top.
@IVANOV. I 'get' the comic relief, and its needed imho. No idea why you would be censored.
KMM
29-09-2017 23:16 (GMT)
@ Lyndasez, Sounds like the same.
KMM
29-09-2017 23:11 (GMT)
Which was expanded? I scan them to see if they're headed where I'm going...
Your post was by the same guy so I didn't inspect...
KMM
29-09-2017 22:32 (GMT)
Lyndasez: That's the guy who said they were transferring radioactive material--yes?
I'm not sure some of that wasn't expanded on and added by someone else
KMM
29-09-2017 22:26 (GMT)
Lyndasez 29-09-2017 21:54 (GMT) @KMM, "If you are reading that long winded essay, it goes into US overflights over Russia. Too much so really IMO."
Haha, I've sped read the internet version. Yes, hopefully that guy must've been paid by the word.
That's the guy who said they were transferring radioactive material--yes?
Yes
Sepp
29-09-2017 22:00 (GMT)
Hey, great site!!! I think in the end the military/special forces theory fits best – and we all know that this is not the first time someone comes to that conclusion. It is clear that at least some of the victims suffered major injuries, which only can be explained by the exposure to a tremendous/ explosive force. Who is in charge of explosives? The military. And it seems that there was a lot of cover up done afterwards, to disguise the truth. And who is very experienced and good in covering something up? The military. I think most of us would agree, that we don?t have an unlucky accident here, but a murder case. (Who has the license to kill? The military). And after the homicide the military had enough time to cover their tracks, as the rescue team arrived after more than 20 days at the crime scene. And the rescue team was at first not aware that they had to deal with a crime scene. This became clear only after 2 months, when the more violently hurt bodies where found. All the evidence that may have been there initially was long ago gone. …and closer we will not get to the truth, as much as we try. We will never exactly know why the hikers had to die, nor what exactly made them leave their tent, nor what exactly happened that night - as much as we whish. There is only one way to know more than we already do: it may be that somewhere in forgotten secret archives (of the russain military maybe ;-) the report of that disastrous night including the scensored pieces is kept and hopefully released one day – but I doubt this will happen. Howsoever: In my opinion most of the other theories don?t fit and are contradictory (including ball lightning, drugs/shrooms, diseases, avalanche, infrasound, yeti…).
Lyndasez
29-09-2017 21:54 (GMT)
@KMM, "If you are reading that long winded essay, it goes into US overflights over Russia. Too much so really IMO."
Haha, I've sped read the internet version. Yes, hopefully that guy must've been paid by the word.
That's the guy who said they were transferring radioactive material--yes?
Nigel Evans
29-09-2017 21:51 (GMT)
@KMM - Ivanov thought he knew the reason and he would have compiled the original file before it was confiscated.
KMM
29-09-2017 21:39 (GMT)
Nigel: well if the interview with Evgeniy Okishev is to be believed there was a coverup ordered at a high level after the criminal investigation was underway, the clear order was to falsify the report as an accident whilst the real one was confiscated. From memory the second highest officer in the Russian criminal prosecution service travelled 400 miles to personally attend the autopsies on the first five bodies over three days. Gives you a feeling that the pathologist had the outcomes written for him.
:-) I don't think you will get many arguments on a coverup. Just the reasons for it .
KMM
29-09-2017 20:59 (GMT)
Lyndasez: Due to the nuclear test ban its clear to me the Russians were paranoid of American spy planes or balloons ....being those "lights
If you are reading that long winded essay, it goes into US overflights over Russia. Too much so really IMO.
Lyndasez
29-09-2017 18:55 (GMT)
@KMM, "A coverup DOES NOT, have to have anything to do with BL !"
I strongly agree. ---- @Nigel, I doubt the interest in the eye witness accounts of lights was due to harnessing BL.
Due to the nuclear test ban its clear to me the Russians were paranoid of American spy planes or balloons ....being those "lights."
KMM
29-09-2017 18:31 (GMT)
Nigel Evans 29-09-2017 18:21 (GMT) @Lyndasez - well if the interview with Evgeniy Okishev is to be believed there was a coverup ordered at a high level after the criminal investigation was underway, the clear order was to falsify the report as an accident whilst the real one was confiscated. From memory the second highest officer in the Russian criminal prosecution service travelled 400 miles to personally attend the autopsies on the first five bodies over three days. Gives you a feeling that the pathologist had the outcomes written for him. So if you embrace that interview as genuine there are few options. BL still fits as it could be the Soviets were investigating trying to weaponise it. They could have even been inducing it perhaps, hence the several eye witness accounts in that period...
A coverup DOES NOT, have to have anything to do with BL !
Nigel Evans
29-09-2017 18:21 (GMT)
@Lyndasez - well if the interview with Evgeniy Okishev is to be believed there was a coverup ordered at a high level after the criminal investigation was underway, the clear order was to falsify the report as an accident whilst the real one was confiscated. From memory the second highest officer in the Russian criminal prosecution service travelled 400 miles to personally attend the autopsies on the first five bodies over three days. Gives you a feeling that the pathologist had the outcomes written for him. So if you embrace that interview as genuine there are few options. BL still fits as it could be the Soviets were investigating trying to weaponise it. They could have even been inducing it perhaps, hence the several eye witness accounts in that period...
Lyndasez
29-09-2017 10:17 (GMT)
@Nigel, Are you saying your BL theory has changed? Now you are onto weaponised BL? Not quite reading you.
When you were quoting "Don't Go There," you demanded facts from me believing in no cover up, now you've gone full circle???
I can go full on espionage...
Nigel Evans
29-09-2017 08:20 (GMT)
@Lyndasez - "Umm, you're supposed to answer this as well, BL vs Deranged animal! " BL, you're omitting to dial in what we now know about the coverup. It had to have been something very sensitive. That now rules out a huge number of possibilities including rabid reindeer and food poisoning btw.
My money is on either the military testing or interested in weaponising BL. That Kapitsa was working in this field at the same time and some of the group were working in nuclear resonates with me, they would have heard his theory for BL and people would be talking about it as a solution to the mansi siberian lights perhaps. So some intersects there.
Accidental deaths from military testing - well i see it as a coverup being launched late in the day after the state's legal arm found the first five and began an investigation. So i discount the tidying up theory, whatever it was didn't leave traces other than as reported.
Loose-Cannon
29-09-2017 05:52 (GMT)
Paul/Pavell.... Whoever you are. I don't care, this site is 1000 times better organized and has no spam flash add crap. You don't 'own' the DP incident.
Do you have something to add to the conversation other then but-hurt?
Loose-Cannon
29-09-2017 04:21 (GMT)
@Ray. "They acted like people exposed to a high order Toxin that effected their CNS. Like LSD , nerve agent, or several food born toxins would have. Did anyone run test on the Kasha for Ergot"
They did, but the file/results are conveniently left out of the case files.
Lyndasez
28-09-2017 18:12 (GMT)
Nigel, " Both strips were free from emulsion damage but there was a small section of underdeveloped film on the ten frame strip due to the layers of film getting stuck together in the developing tank. The most glaring item to begin with, in the examination of Zolotarev’s film, was that nine frames were missing"
Missing...how? Cut, unused??? The rest is gibberish, what are we looking at negs, photos of negs....what?
And if they photos have anything to do with those on this site...look yourself....says damaged.
Btw. You can't help but get emulsion damage if strips stuck together...double talk.
Lyndasez
28-09-2017 17:40 (GMT)
@Nigel Evans "also there was no blood or even signs of a struggle at the tent.
Just guessing that there weren't any animal footprints either." ---------- Tent was not orderly ...entrance was littered with items.
Zinas face was bloodied, her back bruised, numerous signs of cuts an bruises on others...
Tracks: Snowed over...the 2 pair of men's boots left no tracks as well.
Umm, you're supposed to answer this as well, BL vs Deranged animal!
Nigel Evans
28-09-2017 17:21 (GMT)
@Lyndasez - also there was no blood or even signs of a struggle at the tent.
Just guessing that there weren't any animal footprints either.
Lyndasez
28-09-2017 16:46 (GMT)
@Nigel, "It just doesn't fit the facts, they left the tent to walk down the slope half undressed leaving knives and axes behind. Same with the yeti theory."
Yeti?! I never said yeti, that's within the realm of your fantasies. Keep it simple.
Do you have time and light to gather weapons and clothes if an animal pounced your tent and injured people?! The surprise attack alone would unnerve you. Next question?
Nigel Evans
28-09-2017 16:26 (GMT)
@Lyndasez - "too simple for you? " It just doesn't fit the facts, they left the tent to walk down the slope half undressed leaving knives and axes behind. Same with the yeti theory, you'd get your boots on and take all your weapons.
@Ray - the biggest argument against hallucinating et al is that they all move with the same purpose which is difficult to explain with natural poisoning, affecting all nine the same - quite improbable. Then they make quite rational choices, leaving a flashlight halfway down turned on (presumed to be a beacon to assist the return) collecting firewood, stripping bodies for extra clothing, building seats in a den (at least, if not building the den entirely).
Lyndasez
28-09-2017 15:53 (GMT)
@Nigel I'll put my rabid/deranged animal theory against your BL anyday, the statistics are with me....too simple for you? ----------------------- First case of rabies reported in wild animal in Interior Alaska Tim Mowry/tmowry@newsminer.com; ... There have been cases of rabies in caribou and moose, ...
Moscow, Feb 13 (IANS/RIA Novosti) Two residents of Moscow have reportedly been hospitalized while 12 of their relatives are undergoing treatment after coming into contact with a rabid moose.
Rabid deer confirmed in Cherokee County, N.C. - Carolina ...
Rabies is a disease, ... elk and moose causing a characteristic spongy degeneration of the brain of infected animals resulting in emaciation, ...
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Ray
28-09-2017 15:53 (GMT)
They acted like people exposed to a high order Toxin that effected their CNS. Like LSD , nerve agent, or several food born toxins would have. Did anyone run test on the Kasha for Ergot?
@KMM - "why didn't he turn around and snap off a few shots going down the slope?"
Good question. The answer has to be that as a true professional he did and they kept them. Valentin Yakimenko's study of the group's negatives established that there are several (nine?) frames missing from that roll, the one producing the 30x. Maybe we only know of these pictures due to a failure to recognise their content.
KMM
27-09-2017 21:47 (GMT)
For Nigel, If SZ was on a secret mission to photograph lights in the sky/BL, why didn't he turn around and snap off a few shots going down the slope? You know something that wouldn't need 30X magnification to find a spot on the negative. Secrecy would of went out of the window once BL showed up !
Lyndasez
27-09-2017 21:24 (GMT)
@KMM, "Maybe, but why would these same 2 veer off from the group then rejoin them later?"
I don't think those are their (rav3) prints, think that was 2 yuris.... They (3) could've gone so fast tumbled or what have you, the warm feet left the prints. That's why I went with the simple rabid animal, to explain to Nigel, how his theory falters. Disoriented animal drawn to light pounces tent. They creep downhill, Igor tells 2 to gather wood an build fire, animal lingers, animal makes sudden movement Luddy heads for the ravine, animal takes after....very simple but one in many...
KMM
27-09-2017 21:12 (GMT)
Lyndasez 27-09-2017 21:06 (GMT) @KMM, Here's how I see it with the 3 in question. Firstly, you don't suit up to take a pee. So, I think before lights out, SZ & Tibi went out for a smoke.
Maybe, but why would these same 2 veer off from the group then rejoin them later?
KMM
27-09-2017 21:08 (GMT)
@ Lyndasez, Yeah, that was Alexander Kolevatov
Lyndasez
27-09-2017 21:06 (GMT)
@KMM, Here's how I see it with the 3 in question. Firstly, you don't suit up to take a pee. So, I think before lights out, SZ & Tibi went out for a smoke. (2 folded blankets amongst the rumpled)
Alex may have had to pee and joined them....they are panicked by something, alert others and high-tail down hill for cover.
Lyndasez
27-09-2017 19:16 (GMT)
@KMM,
ALEX---->"a ski jacket of black paper on a zipper, unbuttoned, right and left breast pockets and cuffs unbuttoned, the buttons are intact. The left sleeve of the jacket on the upper side has fabric defects in the area of ??25 x 12 x 13 cm, the edges of the fabric in the indicated place are adorned. On the right elbow of the jacket there are insignificant tissue burdens 7-8 cm long. Above the jacket is a brown sweatshirt with sweatshirts, then under it is a second gray sweater, a worn, cotton cowboy in a blue, red and black cage, with two breast pockets. On the right pocket is an English safety pin, it contained a flat key from the lock, the collar and cuffs of the cowboy are unbuttoned. "
Native shirt with fleece, pale gray, worn. A canvas trousers are a khaki overall on straps with an elastic band. In the right pockets of the trousers a soggy box of matches, at the bottom trousers on metal buckles with tears, beneath them are ski trousers of a blue bikey with side clasps, in the pocket of their handkerchief. On the legs woolen socks are dirty, white, homemade with knots of burning, brown cotton socks. On his left leg are three brown cotton socks, under them on the ankle joint, a gauze bandage. Pants gray-gray paired with a shirt, blue satin panties"
He didn't have boots.
KMM
27-09-2017 18:53 (GMT)
Lyndasez : Why we're the 3 at the ravine dressed warmest?
I've wondered about the 2 that went off by themselves, later rejoining to rest. Read it was the 2 best dressed, NTB and SZ
Lyndasez
27-09-2017 18:52 (GMT)
@KMM, O Cripes, more reading. Just kidding, thanks for sharing! "link to A.I. Rakitin's essay, ALL 30 chapters of it!"
Lyndasez
27-09-2017 18:42 (GMT)
@Z.D., There was a moratorium on nuclear tests between '58-'60. However, they could've stumbled on tainted aftermath of previous tests. Hence, the 3 yr ban on traversing the area. (Cleanup)
Lyndasez
27-09-2017 18:24 (GMT)
"- it's the lightning bolt theory for the rav4 deaths. But it doesn't explain the key question why leave the tent like that AND have to stay away. So occams razor favours the BL theory which explains all."
To me this isn't the simplest of explanations. Too many variables to account for.
Why we're the 3 at the ravine dressed warmest?
No burns attributable to lightning strikes.
The victims panicked behavior to a natural phenomena.
No evidence of unexplained solid ice, craters, surface damage.
Why was the first to die, the 2 by the fire and so forth.
Plus if we want to include tearing of tent from inside?
If I were to, off the top of my head think of a simple reason to panic it would be a rabid reindeer pounced the tent stayed awhile there and butted the RAV4, left others alone to venture back to tent....
Loose-Cannon
27-09-2017 18:23 (GMT)
No Nigel... BL does not explain it all.
But I see your starting to think of other possibilities. Thats a good thang.
Z.D.
27-09-2017 17:47 (GMT)
I know that i'm not an expert on this incident, but i do come from a part of the US that gets extremely cold. I know that hypothermia, even while drunk or high, will set in around 5 or ten minutes. That's with minus ten. My dad, being a dispatcher, answered some of these calls for those who died because of hypothermia. From what i can gather, they do not look anything like how these people's corpses look from the pictures. they are not blueish purple, common with frost bite or hypothermia, and for the most part, look like their skin was burn. The autopsys of some of the victims did show that some were exposed to radiation, which would cause thoses kinds of burns, but it didn't kill them. My best guess, after analysising the photos and diary entries and autopsy reports, is that they were victims of a science experiment gone wrong. the kind of experiment i can not determine, but i say it might have been something with nuclear radiation. The area was sparcely populated, making it perfect for this kind of stuff. That's my two sense in this.
@Lyndasez - it's the lightning bolt theory for the rav4 deaths. But it doesn't explain the key question why leave the tent like that AND have to stay away. So occams razor favours the BL theory which explains all.
But given the coverup here from Party HQ the favourite theory now has to be either military accident of highly sensitive weapon technology (neutron weapons might be a good avenue as there's a connection with tritium and beta emitters) or accidental encounter with a natural phenomena that was being looked at by the military. Whatever it was it had to be kept a state secret. This wasn't mansi hunters et al and if the state wanted them silenced they would have just disappeared. So it looks like a genuine accident that brought in the law agencies and then the state woke up to what was happening late in the day and ordered a coverup, confiscated the prosecutor's file ordering a dummy one to be created.
Interesting that Pytor Kapitsa (author of the microwave cavity hypothesis for BL) was working on high energy microwave plasmas during this period - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyotr_Kapitsa - "He invented high power microwave generators (1950–1955)".
Loose-Cannon
26-09-2017 16:23 (GMT)
I don't recall them having any shovels, but I could be wrong. I do know they had large hatchets that on one side had a duck-bill turned 90 degrees to the axe/hatchet side.
No, and given their goals Igor and company probably gave them lots of details of the hike.
- I - Goals and objectives: 1. Acquaintance with the nature and economy of the Northern Urals.? 2. Conducting conversations and reports among the population.? 3. Increase the athletic skills of the participants in the trek.? 4. Study of the depth of freezing of soils according to surveys and observations of residents of the Northern Urals.
Lyndasez
26-09-2017 15:17 (GMT)
@Loose Cannon If you know...I've read through the case files and saw no account of folding shovels recovered. I miss something?
Lyndasez
26-09-2017 14:58 (GMT)
Nigel, ( if the explosion was small enough and in the snowbank , or even just in the ravine, there'd be little other damage it would direct the blast along the ravine and straight up. If they had been permitted to return for a site inspection in the summer maybe they would have seen something, snapped saplings perhaps.) wwwwhaaaaat happened to this???===> "The theory suggests that the ravine lightning strike hit close to the den and vaporized a substantial quantity of stream water, snow and ice can produce 300,000 amps and temperatures several times hotter than the surface of the sun, e.g. 30,000C) creating an explosion amplified by the confines of the ravine that threw the den and it's occupants"
Abandon ship! Theory is sinking!!
Lyndasez
26-09-2017 14:22 (GMT)
@KMM, Good job! ;c}
(The mechanism of damage formation is as follows: a blow, compression from the right to the left with a solid blunt object with a traumatic surface comparable in size to the chest of Zolotarev.). <===A SHOVEL or from the look of that 13ft, immaculate den, a backhoe...
Loose-Cannon
26-09-2017 12:48 (GMT)
Yeah... Because risking more lives digging by hand in unknown depths of pack ice/snow in an unstable area would makes sense. On Top of that, I would leave my wounded female friend slumped offer a rock with her arms up for good measure. Sounds logical.
Nigel Evans
26-09-2017 11:10 (GMT)
@LC - "Except for the fact they were found meters away from the 'den', and you cannot explain for a snow movement/melting pushing bodies because the 'den' floor was intact." That's were Rustem, Zina and Igor get their hands and fists scratched etc digging them out.
"What happens when your standing in a creek of boulders next to a wall of pack ice when it collapses/slides/shifts/settles into the ravine? " You're guaranteed to get broken limbs. A key feature of this injury profile is the strong crushing force required to snap ribs that doesn't break limbs, or even a collar bone.
Loose-Cannon
26-09-2017 10:52 (GMT)
Except for the fact they were found meters away from the 'den', and you cannot explain for a snow movement/melting pushing bodies because the 'den' floor was intact.
#1 they were not in the den. #2 plenty of evidence suggesting the den didn't exist in the first place.
I still for the life of me do not understand why you think an explosion 'had' to have happen. Your a physics guy... What happens when your standing in a creek of boulders next to a wall of pack ice when it collapses/slides/shifts/settles into the ravine? An explosion does not have to exist for this to happen.
Nigel Evans
26-09-2017 06:24 (GMT)
@LC - "Last time I looked, a blast wave is neither solid, nor blunt"
Correct but the chunk of the den wall pushed into her chest by an explosion outside could be. Then the roof den collapsing gives you bi phasic.
Explosion card reinstated.
@KMM - if the explosion was small enough and in the snowbank , or even just in the ravine, there'd be little other damage it would direct the blast along the ravine and straight up. If they had been permitted to return for a site inspection in the summer maybe they would have seen something, snapped saplings perhaps.
KMM
26-09-2017 02:31 (GMT)
LC: And you thought I was WAY out in left field for suggesting a possible ergot poisoning
I just read a couple pages on this. I didn't know much about it
Loose-Cannon
26-09-2017 02:09 (GMT)
Lol... I just noticed the 4 eating the Rusks in the photos just happen to be the 4 individuals confirmed having fractured bones.
Loose-Cannon
26-09-2017 01:53 (GMT)
Tumanov:.
"The expert, Vozrozhdenniy interprets petty-hemorrhage as a spot of Wischnewsky. But at the same time, in the stomach of Dyatlov, "about 100 cubic cm of liquid mucous mass of a brownish reddish color", "the mucous membrane of the stomach is lilac-red, swollen," and "the lips are covered with gore".
Most likely, Dyatlov had vomiting before his death with an admixture of blood. The source of bleeding is the gastric mucosa. What caused such a vomiting - poisoning or abnormality of the stomach - can not be established, since there is no case in the materials of the forensic chemical and histological examination." .
"5. In each of the nine acts, the Vozrozhdenniy writes that pieces of internal organs are taken for forensic chemical research. But in the case materials there is not a single result of the conducted forensic chemical research, which should at least show the presence or absence of alcohol. But, a little nuance - to determine the alcohol take blood and urine. Vozrozhdenniy points out that parts of internal organs are taken for a forensic chemical study. This means that he directed the bodies for a forensic chemical study, not only for alcohol, but for the presence of poisons." .
"It is very alarming that the results of the forensic histological examination of the first five corpses are absent in the criminal case! And, as our expert suggested, it is possible that the results of that histology were intentionally concealed. Special attention: all 9 corpses take pieces of internal organs for forensic chemical examination. But there is not a single result in the case materials! And this gives us reason to suspect that chemical experts could find traces in bodies, for example, of some sort of combat poison." .
Poison, poison..... LOL.
And you thought I was WAY out in left field for suggesting a possible ergot poisoning.
"At the same time, there was no system to free the tent from snow. First they took out a few stale blankets, then buckets, a stove, two or THREE SACKS OF BISCUITS , shoes and other things. Things were stacked in backpacks, and dragged the tent to the search engine camp. Naturally, after such manipulations on the tent, sections and torn pieces could appear." .
"The tent had an ice ax, an extra pair of skis. On the tent was a Chinese lantern in the unlit state. 9 backpacks, 9 pairs of skis were found in the tent, all of them were under the tent floor, 8 pairs of shoes, 3.5 pairs of boots, quilted jackets and MANY BISCUITS, half a sack of sugar, a large number of concentrates, cereals, soups, etc. , cocoa, axes, saw, cameras, diaries of students, documents and money." .
"Apparently the group was in the final stage of dressing and preparing for the night at the time of the incident. In the near half found a few crusts from the loin. There are rusks scattered all over the tent." .
Nigel: That's got to be burst lungs, from an explosion
An explosion that left no BLAST pattern, as in melted snow, felled trees.
Loose-Cannon
26-09-2017 01:19 (GMT)
Also dont forget.... Regarding the rav4.
The forensic expert and criminalist expert Churkina refused to sign off on the official autopsy, but Ivanov signed..... AS OF TODAY THE AUTOPSY REPORTS ON RAV4 ARE INVALID AS TWO REQUIRED SIGNATURES ARE ABSENT! .
Lyndasez: I call Cyberknife BL! ...That covers the Ripper and Black Dahlia mysteries!!
in support of Black Dahlia: people are always seeing LIGHTS in Hollywood.
Loose-Cannon
26-09-2017 00:09 (GMT)
Over and over you see 'solid blunt object'.
Last time I looked, a blast wave is neither solid, nor blunt. .
Explosion card denied.
Loose-Cannon
25-09-2017 23:40 (GMT)
"That's got to be burst lungs, from an explosion...."
Funny... that isn't what ANY of the medical examiners have said.
Loose-Cannon
25-09-2017 23:38 (GMT)
Just to recap, and drive it home for our little buddy Nigel. .
YURI DOROSHENKO.
1) With such a transformation of the brain, it is impossible to see the swelling of the meninges! . 2) The presence of dark blood is not a sign of death from hypothermia, on the contrary, when supercooled, the blood is bright red due to the high content of oxyhemoglobin. 3) The resulted statement about a frostbite of fingers of extremities is not proved. There is nothing about this in the text of the study. 4) These circumstances (see General Comment, point 3) allow us to say that Doroshenko's death came as a result of hypothermia, only in a hypothetical form.
Yuri Krivonishenko.
1) It's strange, but Krivonischenko's craniocerebral trauma is only in the description of the act, and in conclusion about the reasons for his death there is none. But this damage was formed as a result of a blow (or blows) by a solid blunt object (or objects) in the right temporal and occipital areas of the head of Yuri. It can not be ruled out that the trauma could be obtained by falling from the standing position and by hitting the right temporal and occipital areas of the head against a hard blunt object. With such a trauma there could be hemorrhages in the brain, but the disintegration of the brain substance in Krivonishchenko destroyed all the informative signs. 2) Again the same rake. In the description of the act about the bite is written, and in the conclusion about death - not a word. But this one line gives reason to believe that Krivonishenko himself bitten himself by the finger, snatching a piece of leather. What does it mean? Perhaps Yuri tried to restrain the cry with severe pain. Perhaps, it was important that someone at that moment did not hear it. 3)I can assume that these "wounds" - cuts - were formed from a sharp object. Knife, glass, blade - anything. 4) It is doubtful that these abrasions were formed when the person fell face down on the snow. Then the nose and the superciliary arches would be buried, and there would be more scratches on the forehead. These abrasions of Krivonischenko from blows with a solid blunt object (or hitting against similar objects) at an acute angle. 5) Suppose, second-degree burns can be obtained by negligence, falling asleep at the fire. But third-degree burns are charring (!) Of soft tissues. To achieve this effect, you need to keep your feet in the fire for a long time. Get in a dream such a burn is impossible, burns already 1-st degree cause severe pain and awakening. In this case, third-degree burns could be formed if a person was in deep depression, for example, into intoxication (he did not feel pain or could not pull his leg off, - Auth.) Next to a strong fire. 6) Wounds on the nose are caused by animals and after the death of Yuri. Otherwise, there would be traces of bleeding.
IGOR DIATLOV.
1) At the autopsy, Igor Dyatlov's internal organs were in rotting state. Therefore, it is incorrect to assert that the internal organs are full of blood, as their structure is modified by postmortem processes. And the presence of dark blood is not a sign of death from hypothermia, on the contrary, when supercooled, the blood is bright red due to the high content of oxyhemoglobin. 2) Most likely, Dyatlov had vomiting before his death with an admixture of blood. The source of bleeding is the gastric mucosa. What caused such a vomiting - poisoning or abnormality of the stomach - can not be established, since there is no case in the materials of the forensic chemical and histological examination. 3) But these damage from falling on the snow will not get. They could appear from circular compression in the ankle, for example as a result of binding by a rope. 4) Obviously, shortly before his death, Igor had to hit with a brush, clenched into a fist, over a hard object.
ZINAIDA KOLMOGOROVA.
1)And these injuries the girl received, most likely, from punching on a solid object. When falling on the snow with an emphasis on the fists, there would be other damage. 2) It was formed as a result of a blow by a solid blunt object, which had an elongated shape (stick, branch of a tree, etc.).
RUSTEM SLOBODIN.
1) With such a transformation of the brain, it is impossible to see edema of the meninges. 2) This trauma was formed as a result of a blow by a solid blunt object or from a blow to the head about such an object. 3) This assertion is unreasonable. There was blood under the dura mater. And this gives all grounds to say that Slobodin had a subdural hemorrhage (hemorrhage under the dura mater). According to available data it is impossible to exclude the onset of Slobodin's death as a result of craniocerebral trauma. 4) Traces of secretions of parched blood formed as a result of a trauma to the nose. 5) These abrasions could be formed as a result of the action of a solid blunt object, as well as the impact of a fist clenched on a solid object.
LYUDMILA DUBININA.
1) It should be noted that the fractures of the ribs were formed biphasic. But there is not a word about this in the act of the Renaissance. In the first phase, as a result of a blow to the right side of the thorax by a solid blunt object with a traumatic surface comparable in size to the length of the rib cage, there was a fracture of the right lobes II, III, IV, and V in the mid-axillary line. In the second phase, as a result of compression of the thoracic anteriorly backward with a hard blunt object, there was a fracture of the ribs II, III, IV, V on the right along the midclavicular line, and fracture of the II, III, IV, V, VI, VII ribs on the left along the midclavicular line. In the same phase, a hemorrhage in the region of the sternum was formed, and a bruise of the heart also occurred. 2)Neither during the throw, nor during the fall, marked damage to the chest by Dubinin could not have been formed. Similar injuries occur when rolling through the chest of a massive blunt object. For example, breast trauma, similar to those detected in Dubinina, is characteristic of a traffic accident - a car crossing the chest with the victim lying on his back. 3) Apparently, Lyudmila hit hard on a hard blunt object, or hit her with a similar object. 4) It is not clear that the expert considers them normal mobility, because in norm, with a whole bone, they are immovable in general. Why are they mobile (pathology of the structure, fracture, if fracture, then where) in the Act is not described. If the bone was actually broken, then it is impossible to tell whether this fracture is alive or not, since the Act does not describe the nature of the soft tissues surrounding the bone. The study of the hyoid bone was not carried out.
SEMYON ZOLOTARYOV.
1) Fractures in the ribs of Zolotarev have been intravital, as evidenced by the results of a histological examination (hemorrhages in the soft tissues - Auth.) And the presence of blood in the pleural cavity. The mechanism of damage formation is as follows: a blow, compression from the right to the left with a solid blunt object with a traumatic surface comparable in size to the chest of Zolotarev. To break thus the ribs, falling on a flat solid surface, is unreal. 2) Both Zolotarev and Dubinina had similar injuries posthumously, as a result of damage to the corpse by animals.
ALEXANDER KOLEVATOV.
1) This conclusion is groundless and in no way follows from the results of the forensic medical examination. There are no characteristic signs: no scarlet stains, no scarlet blood (just scarlet, not dark), Wischnewsky spots, and a number of microscopic signs. 2) The deformation of the neck in the text of the act itself is not described in the following. Not specified and the nature of deformation - congenital or acquired. What exactly is deformed and how. And according to the available description it is also impossible to determine - the deformation of the neck in the lifetime or posthumous.
NIKOLAI TIBO-BRINOLS.
1) This trauma was formed as a result of a blow to the right temporal region with a blunt solid object with a limited traumatic surface that does not exceed the dimensions of the lesion. Stone, iron, or something else that is much stronger than the bones of the skull. 2) This again formed as a result of the impact of a solid blunt object. Direction of impact from front to back towards the anteroideal surface of the right shoulder at an angle close to the straight. 3) In a histological study there is no record of the study of this bone. But there is such a record - "Rib - Between the bone beams blood in a state of putrefaction." This suggests that Vozrozhdenniy at the time of the autopsy revealed a fracture of the rib and took it for histological examination, which showed the intravital nature of the fracture. But in the text of the Act there is not a word about rib fractures in Thibault Brignoles.
GENERAL REMARKS.
All the inspection protocols for the location of the detection of corpses and forensic medical examinations are made, roughly speaking, hackneyed:.
1. The examination was conducted without the participation of a physician-specialist in the field of forensic medicine, which is a violation of the procedure for examining corpses at the place of their detection. The presence and localization of cadaveric spots and the state of the skin in general are not described, the visible lesions on the body are only partially described. Clothes and the position of corpses are described very superficially.
2. Forensic shooting of the scene of the incident was not carried out, the photos are not very informative, closer to the artistic shooting than to the forensic photography.
3. The conclusions of the first five acts of forensic examination were written as a photocopy:.
"... Doroshenko's death (or Krivonischenko, Kolmogorova, Dyatlov, Slobodin) was caused by low temperature, as evidenced by edema of the meninges, a sharp fullness of the internal organs, an overflow of the dark blood of the heart cavities, the presence of Wischnewsky spots on the stomach mucosa, frostbite fingers of the extremities ... ".
4. In each of the nine acts, the expert indicates that the pieces of internal organs are taken for histological examination, but the results in the criminal case are only in the last four - Thibo-Brignol NV, Kolevatova AS, Zolotareva AA and Dubinina LA It can be assumed that the histology of the first five corpses was deliberately hidden, since it was clearly more informative than the corpses found two months later.
5. In each of the nine acts, the Vozrozhdenniy writes that pieces of internal organs are taken for forensic chemical research. But in the case materials there is not a single result of the conducted forensic chemical research, which should at least show the presence or absence of alcohol. But, a little nuance - to determine the alcohol take blood and urine. Vozrozhdenniy points out that parts of internal organs are taken for a forensic chemical study. This means that he directed the bodies for a forensic chemical study, not only for alcohol, but for the presence of poisons.
6. And, finally, the arrangement of cadaveric spots does not coincide with the position of some corpses at the time of their detection. Rustem Slobodin and Yuri Doroshenko found face down, and the cadaver spots the expert described on the back surface of the trunk. The same description is also given by Zinaida Kolmogorova, who, as indicated in the examination report, found lying on her side.
Nigel Evans
25-09-2017 23:24 (GMT)
"The mechanism of damage formation is as follows: a blow, compression from the right to the left with a solid blunt object with a traumatic surface comparable in size to the chest of Zolotarev. To break thus the ribs, falling on a flat solid surface, is unreal."
Semyon also took a crushing force from the right to the left, like if he had been sitting next to Luda in the den...
Nigel Evans
25-09-2017 23:18 (GMT)
Good work guys, i retract my earlier comment about the Tshirt
But here's the smoking gun :- "This sign indicates a bilateral rupture of the lungs"
That's got to be burst lungs, from an explosion....
Loose-Cannon
25-09-2017 22:57 (GMT)
It would seem to indicate the large rock surface they were found on.
Nigel Evans
25-09-2017 22:42 (GMT)
For both Luda and Semyon whatever crushed their chests was similar in length to the size of the rib cage. This would seem to rule out stamping, jumping, rifle but etc.
Nigel Evans
25-09-2017 22:39 (GMT)
Interesting he thinks Luda's fractures were bi phasic :- It should be noted that the fractures of the ribs were formed biphasic. But there is not a word about this in the act of the Renaissance. In the first phase, as a result of a blow to the right side of the thorax by a solid blunt object with a traumatic surface comparable in size to the length of the rib cage, there was a fracture of the right lobes II, III, IV, and V in the mid-axillary line.
In the second phase, as a result of compression of the thoracic anteriorly backward with a hard blunt object, there was a fracture of the ribs II, III, IV, V on the right along the midclavicular line, and fracture of the II, III, IV, V, VI, VII ribs on the left along the midclavicular line. In the same phase, a hemorrhage in the region of the sternum was formed, and a bruise of the heart also occurred.
Like something heavy rolled over her...
Loose-Cannon
25-09-2017 22:28 (GMT)
There you have it folks.
This is was based on a non biased viewpoint from a regarded forensic expert WITHOUT Ivanov and the funky bunch of communist state coverup artists standing over him.
Loose-Cannon
25-09-2017 22:25 (GMT)
Thanks to the fine interweb detection abilities of KMM, we have a recent analysis of the criminal case, studied by forensic expert Eduard Tumanov! Tumanov is a highly regarded modern Russian forensic expert.
GENERAL REMARKS.
All the inspection protocols for the location of the detection of corpses and forensic medical examinations are made, roughly speaking, hackneyed:.
1. The examination was conducted without the participation of a physician-specialist in the field of forensic medicine, which is a violation of the procedure for examining corpses at the place of their detection. The presence and localization of cadaveric spots and the state of the skin in general are not described, the visible lesions on the body are only partially described. Clothes and the position of corpses are described very superficially.
2. Forensic shooting of the scene of the incident was not carried out, the photos are not very informative, closer to the artistic shooting than to the forensic photography.
3. The conclusions of the first five acts of forensic examination were written as a photocopy:.
"... Doroshenko's death (or Krivonischenko, Kolmogorova, Dyatlov, Slobodin) was caused by low temperature, as evidenced by edema of the meninges, a sharp fullness of the internal organs, an overflow of the dark blood of the heart cavities, the presence of Wischnewsky spots on the stomach mucosa, frostbite fingers of the extremities ... ".
4. In each of the nine acts, the expert indicates that the pieces of internal organs are taken for histological examination, but the results in the criminal case are only in the last four - Thibo-Brignol NV, Kolevatova AS, Zolotareva AA and Dubinina LA It can be assumed that the histology of the first five corpses was deliberately hidden, since it was clearly more informative than the corpses found two months later.
5. In each of the nine acts, the Vozrozhdenniy writes that pieces of internal organs are taken for forensic chemical research. But in the case materials there is not a single result of the conducted forensic chemical research, which should at least show the presence or absence of alcohol. But, a little nuance - to determine the alcohol take blood and urine. Vozrozhdenniy points out that parts of internal organs are taken for a forensic chemical study. This means that he directed the bodies for a forensic chemical study, not only for alcohol, but for the presence of poisons.
6. And, finally, the arrangement of cadaveric spots does not coincide with the position of some corpses at the time of their detection. Rustem Slobodin and Yuri Doroshenko found face down, and the cadaver spots the expert described on the back surface of the trunk. The same description is also given by Zinaida Kolmogorova, who, as indicated in the examination report, found lying on her side.
FROM AUTHORS:.
We thank our expert Eduard Tumanov for the work done. And now, in a clearer picture of the injuries of the woodpeckers, we can safely assume that a fight has occurred on the pass. With poachers? Or with someone else, or ... we spread our hands. At the same time, strong rib fractures in Dubinina and Zolotarev indicate that such injuries do not get in fights. That is, according to the cleavages of the ribs you can see that they did not kick a man, there ... with boots, but only one blow and some great object were dealt. What would that mean?
It is very alarming that the results of the forensic histological examination of the first five corpses are absent in the criminal case! And, as our expert suggested, it is possible that the results of that histology were intentionally concealed. Special attention: all 9 corpses take pieces of internal organs for forensic chemical examination. But there is not a single result in the case materials! And this gives us reason to suspect that chemical experts could find traces in bodies, for example, of some sort of combat poison.
We are going to continue the investigation further and we will be glad to new specialists who can help us on this topic.
Loose-Cannon
25-09-2017 22:23 (GMT)
Thanks to the fine interweb detection abilities of KMM, we have a recent analysis of the criminal case, studied by forensic expert Eduard Tumanov! Tumanov is a highly regarded modern Russian forensic expert.
NICOLAI, POSSIBLE, BEAT BY HEAD AND BY RIBS.
NIKOLAI TIBO-BRINOLS.
The certificate of forensic medical expert Vozrozhdenniy from May 9, 1959:.
"... In the right temple, there is a distinct hemorrhage in the right temporal muscle ... a depressed fracture of the right temporal parietal region is determined in a 9 x 7 cm area with a defect in bone tissue and a temporal bone 3 x 3.5 x 2 cm in size. the area of ??the bone is pressed into the cavity of the skull and is located on the dura mater ... in the middle cranium of the pit a multifaceted fracture of the right temporal bone with a divergence of cracks was found ... ».
Tumanov:.
This trauma was formed as a result of a blow to the right temporal region with a blunt solid object with a limited traumatic surface that does not exceed the dimensions of the lesion. Stone, iron, or something else that is much stronger than the bones of the skull.
The certificate of forensic medical expert Vozrozhdenniy from May 9, 1959:.
"... In the area of ??the right shoulder on the anterior-internal surface - a spilled bruise 10x12 cm in size is greenish-blue at the level of the middle and lower third. In the area of ??bruising, hemorrhages in the underlying soft tissue ... ".
Tumanov:.
This again formed as a result of the impact of a solid blunt object. Direction of impact from front to back towards the anteroideal surface of the right shoulder at an angle close to the straight.
The certificate of forensic medical expert Vozrozhdenniy from May 9, 1959:.
"For histological examination, a part of the temporal-parietal bone is taken from the right.".
Tumanov:.
In a histological study there is no record of the study of this bone. But there is such a record - "Rib - Between the bone beams blood in a state of putrefaction." This suggests that Vozrozhdenniy at the time of the autopsy revealed a fracture of the rib and took it for histological examination, which showed the intravital nature of the fracture. But in the text of the Act there is not a word about rib fractures in Thibault Brignoles.
Loose-Cannon
25-09-2017 22:21 (GMT)
Thanks to the fine interweb detection abilities of KMM, we have a recent analysis of the criminal case, studied by forensic expert Eduard Tumanov! Tumanov is a highly regarded modern Russian forensic expert.
ALEXANDER KOLEVATOV.
The certificate of forensic medical expert Vozrozhdenniy from May 9, 1959:.
"Based on the study of the corpse Kolevatov believe that his death came as a result of exposure to low temperature."
Tumanov:.
This conclusion is groundless and in no way follows from the results of the forensic medical examination. There are no characteristic signs: no scarlet stains, no scarlet blood (just scarlet, not dark), Wischnewsky spots, and a number of microscopic signs.
The certificate of forensic medical expert Vozrozhdenniy from May 9, 1959:.
"The neck is long, thin, deformed in the region of the thyroid cartilage.".
Tumanov:.
The deformation of the neck in the text of the act itself is not described in the following. Not specified and the nature of deformation - congenital or acquired. What exactly is deformed and how. And according to the available description it is also impossible to determine - the deformation of the neck in the lifetime or posthumous.
Loose-Cannon
25-09-2017 22:20 (GMT)
Thanks to the fine interweb detection abilities of KMM, we have a recent analysis of the criminal case, studied by forensic expert Eduard Tumanov! Tumanov is a highly regarded modern Russian forensic expert.
Now SZ
SEMYON ZOLOTARYOV .
The certificate of forensic medical expert Vozrozhdenniy from May 9, 1959:.
"... it is determined by the II, III, IV, V, VI rib fracture on the right along the okologo-ore and mid-axillary line with hemorrhage into the adjacent intercostal muscles.".
Tumanov:.
Fractures in the ribs of Zolotarev have been intravital, as evidenced by the results of a histological examination (hemorrhages in the soft tissues - Auth.) And the presence of blood in the pleural cavity.
The mechanism of damage formation is as follows: a blow, compression from the right to the left with a solid blunt object with a traumatic surface comparable in size to the chest of Zolotarev. To break thus the ribs, falling on a flat solid surface, is unreal.
The certificate of forensic medical expert Vozrozhdenniy from May 9, 1959:.
"... In the region of the superciliary arches and eye sockets, a defect of soft tissues of a rounded shape at a site of 7 x 6 cm with thin edges, with exposure of the bones of the facial skull. The glaznitsa gap. There are no eyeballs ... ".
Tumanov:.
Both Zolotarev and Dubinina had similar injuries posthumously, as a result of damage to the corpse by animals.
Loose-Cannon
25-09-2017 22:17 (GMT)
Thanks to the fine interweb detection abilities of KMM, we have a recent analysis of the criminal case, studied by forensic expert Eduard Tumanov! Tumanov is a highly regarded modern Russian forensic expert.
Now LYUDMILA DUBININA.
The certificate of forensic medical expert Vozrozhdenniy from May 9, 1959:.
" Dubinin 's death came as a result of a large hemorrhage to the right ventricle of the heart, multiple bilateral fracture of the ribs, lethal internal bleeding into the chest cavity.".
Tumanov:.
It should be noted that the fractures of the ribs were formed biphasic. But there is not a word about this in the act of the Renaissance. In the first phase, as a result of a blow to the right side of the thorax by a solid blunt object with a traumatic surface comparable in size to the length of the rib cage, there was a fracture of the right lobes II, III, IV, and V in the mid-axillary line.
In the second phase, as a result of compression of the thoracic anteriorly backward with a hard blunt object, there was a fracture of the ribs II, III, IV, V on the right along the midclavicular line, and fracture of the II, III, IV, V, VI, VII ribs on the left along the midclavicular line. In the same phase, a hemorrhage in the region of the sternum was formed, and a bruise of the heart also occurred.
The certificate of forensic medical expert Vozrozhdenniy from May 9, 1959:.
"... in the pleural cavities contained up to one and a half liters of liquid dark blood.".
Tumanov:.
This sign indicates a bilateral rupture of the lungs, but the act does not say a word about it. Yes, and the statement of the expert should be taken critically, since after the onset of death before the moment of forensic medical examination 3 (!) Months passed, and as a result of rotting tissues in the pleural cavities accumulated exudate (putrefactive fluid - Auth.), Which mingled with broken blood.
The certificate of forensic medical expert Vozrozhdenniy from May 9, 1959:.
"... are the result of the impact of a large force, followed by the fall, throw or bruise of the chest area by Dubinina.".
Tumanov:.
Neither during the throw, nor during the fall, marked damage to the chest by Dubinin could not have been formed. Similar injuries occur when rolling through the chest of a massive blunt object. For example, breast trauma, similar to those detected in Dubinina, is characteristic of a traffic accident - a car crossing the chest with the victim lying on his back.
The certificate of forensic medical expert Vozrozhdenniy from May 9, 1959:.
"... On the outer and anterior surface of the left thigh, in the middle third, the diffuse bruise of cyanotic-lilac color in a section measuring 10 x 5 cm, with a hemorrhage into the thickness of the skin ...".
Tumanov:.
Apparently, Lyudmila hit hard on a hard blunt object, or hit her with a similar object.
The certificate of forensic medical expert Vozrozhdenniy from May 9, 1959:.
"Horns of the hyoid bone of unusual mobility." Then comes the word "broken", but the expert in the Act hid it.
Tumanov:.
It is not clear that the expert considers them normal mobility, because in norm, with a whole bone, they are immovable in general. Why are they mobile (pathology of the structure, fracture, if fracture, then where) in the Act is not described. If the bone was actually broken, then it is impossible to tell whether this fracture is alive or not, since the Act does not describe the nature of the soft tissues surrounding the bone. The study of the hyoid bone was not carried out.
Loose-Cannon
25-09-2017 22:15 (GMT)
Thanks to the fine interweb detection abilities of KMM, we have a recent analysis of the criminal case, studied by forensic expert Eduard Tumanov! Tumanov is a highly regarded modern Russian forensic expert.
RUSTEM SLOBODIN (found on the slope of Mount Holatchahl).
The certificate of forensic medical expert of the Vozrozhdenniy from March 8, 1959 :.
"... edema of the meninges, fullness of the internal organs, Wischnewsky spots on the stomach mucosa ... The dura mater of the cyanosis, the vessels of its weak blood filling. Under the dura mater, up to 75 cc was kept. cm, bloody fluid, mild cloudy, red-greenish color. The substance of the brain is a formless mass of greenish-red color with indistinguishable contours of the ventricles of the brain, as well as gray and white matter ... ".
Tumanov:.
With such a transformation of the brain, it is impossible to see edema of the meninges.
The certificate of forensic medical expert of Vozrozhdenniy from March 9, 1959:.
"From the anterior margin of the scales of the left temporal bone ... upwards of the frontal bone segment there is a bone fracture with a divergence of the edges up to 0.1 cm, crack length up to 6 cm. ... Under the dura mater, up to 75 cm3 of bloody fluid was contained.".
Tumanov:.
This trauma was formed as a result of a blow by a solid blunt object or from a blow to the head about such an object.
The certificate of forensic medical expert of Vozrozhdenniy from March 9, 1959:.
"The absence of a pronounced cerebral hemorrhage gives reason to believe that Slobodin's death occurred precisely as a result of his freezing.".
Tumanov:.
This assertion is unreasonable. There was blood under the dura mater. And this gives all grounds to say that Slobodin had a subdural hemorrhage (hemorrhage under the dura mater). According to available data it is impossible to exclude the onset of Slobodin's death as a result of craniocerebral trauma.
The certificate of forensic medical expert of Vozrozhdenniy from March 9, 1959:.
"The back of the nose is straight, on the dorsal side of the nose and in the region of the tip of the nose soft tissue is brownish-red. On the tip of the nose is a section of soft tissues under a dry brown-cherry crust measuring 1.5 x 1 cm. ".
Tumanov:.
Traces of secretions of parched blood formed as a result of a trauma to the nose.
The certificate of forensic medical expert of Vozrozhdenniy from March 9, 1959:.
"... In the region of the metacarpophalangeal joints of the wrists, the deposition of the protruding parts of the soft tissues in the areas of 8 x 1.5 cm, covered with dry parchment density, is lower than the skin level. On the ulnar edge of the left hand, the brown-cherry coloring parchment density of 6 x 2 cm with the transition of sedimentation to the lateral surface of the finger of the left hand. ".
Tumanov:.
These abrasions could be formed as a result of the action of a solid blunt object, as well as the impact of a fist clenched on a solid object.
Loose-Cannon
25-09-2017 22:09 (GMT)
Thanks to the fine interweb detection abilities of KMM, we have a recent analysis of the criminal case, studied by forensic expert Eduard Tumanov! Tumanov is a highly regarded modern Russian forensic expert.
Now with ZINAIDA KOLMOGOROVA! .
ZINAIDA KOLMOGOROVA (found on the slope of Mount Holatchahl).
The certificate of forensic medical expert of Vozrozhdenniy from March 4, 1959:.
"... In the upper eyelid of the left and right eye, the site of skin firming of dark red color is 5 x 1 cm and 0.5 x 0.5 cm. On the dorsal side of the nose there is a reddish brown reddish brown, 1 x 0.7 cm in size, on the tip of the nose the same abrasion of the parchment density of 2 x 1 cm. In the area of ??the zygomatic arches, cheeks and chin a variety of abrasions of different shapes and sizes under dry brown color crusts from 6 x 2 cm in size to? x 1 cm and less. ... ".
Tumanov:.
Zina could get these bruises when she fell face down on the snow.
The certificate of forensic medical expert of Vozrozhdenniy from March 4, 1959:.
"... On the back of the right and left hand in the area of ??the metacarpophalangeal and interphalangeal joints, bruise-colored abrasions are dense to the touch, ranging in size from 1.5 x 1 cm to 0.3 x 3 cm. In the rear of the right hand, at the base of the third finger, shape, the angle facing the terminal phalanx in dimensions of 3 x 2.2 cm with uneven edges and scalp skin graft .... ".
Tumanov:.
And these injuries the girl received, most likely, from punching on a solid object. When falling on the snow with an emphasis on the fists, there would be other damage.
The certificate of forensic medical expert of Vozrozhdenniy from March 4, 1959:.
"... In the lumbar region of the right lateral surface of the trunk, right side of the abdomen, the skin is set in a bright red color in the form of a strip measuring 29 x 6 cm ...".
Tumanov:.
It was formed as a result of a blow by a solid blunt object, which had an elongated shape (stick, branch of a tree, etc.).
Nigel Evans
25-09-2017 22:09 (GMT)
Been here, done that, got the Tshirt :- The main sign of death from hypothermia is the presence of the so-called ‘Wischnewsky spots’, described in 1895 by the coroner S.M. Wischnewsky. These spots are found on the gastric mucosa (stomach membrane) in about seventy-five percent of deaths from low temperatures. According to Vozrozhdenniy, all members of the Dyatlov group had Wischnewsky spots. Tumanov questions the possibility of identifying these spots in the last four bodies due to the state of their deep decay; and even for the first five corpses, which were found in a much more preserved condition, it is difficult to give a clear hypothermia diagnosis based on this and other characteristic features of the condition. Tumanov also doubts the possibility of identifying oedema of the brain – one more characteristic of hypothermia. The brain matter in the corpses was ‘a greenish red, jelly-like substance. The grey matter can hardly be distinguished from the white matter. Brain ventricle contours are indistinguishable. The cerebellum matter pattern is poorly distinguished.’ It was improper defrosting that made it impossible to diagnose oedema of the brain. Still Vozrozhdenniy cited it in order to conclude that freezing was the cause of death. He also mentioned cardiac cavities full of liquid dark blood, which cannot qualify as a sign of death from hypothermia because the blood of frozen people is bright red due to high concentrations of oxyhemoglobin. Finally, neither third nor fourth degree frostbite of fingers or toes was observed. Krivonischenko’s report reads ‘terminal phalanx is dry and dark brown in colour’. According to modern experts, these are the signs of post mortem freezing of the body. Five of the group members had facial abrasions. Small abrasions often occur when an exhausted person is crawling in frozen conditions when he or she can injure the skin by rubbing against firm snow or ice. The location of these on the frontal parts of the bodies (faces and hands) excludes possible compression with snow (like in an avalanche). Had this been the case, they would have been observed all over the body evenly. The bodies were not found in the classic foetal position supposedly assumed by a person freezing to death. Doroshenko and Krivonischenko were even found in a pose similar to that of sunbathing on a beach. In fact, the foetal position is found in less than 30% of all cases of death by freezing, and simply suggests that the person still felt cold when he or she died. Dyatlov’s pose is closer to this classical position. Tumanov suggests that Dyatlov was the only one on the slope who really died by hypothermia.
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (pp. 152-154). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
Loose-Cannon
25-09-2017 22:07 (GMT)
Thanks to the fine interweb detection abilities of KMM, we have a recent analysis of the criminal case, studied by forensic expert Eduard Tumanov! Tumanov is a highly regarded modern Russian forensic expert.
Now with Igor Dyatlov! .
IGOR DIATLOV WAS VOMITING THE BLOOD.
IGOR DIATLOV (found on the slope of Mount Holatchahl).
The certificate of forensic medical expert of Vozrozhdenniy from March 4, 1959:.
"... a sharp fullness of the internal organs, an overflow of the dark cavities in the cavities of the heart ...".
Tumanov:.
At the autopsy, Igor Dyatlov's internal organs were in rotting state. Therefore, it is incorrect to assert that the internal organs are full of blood, as their structure is modified by postmortem processes. And the presence of dark blood is not a sign of death from hypothermia, on the contrary, when supercooled, the blood is bright red due to the high content of oxyhemoglobin.
The certificate of forensic medical expert of Vozrozhdenniy from March 4, 1959:.
"... on the upper surface of the folds of the stomach on the mucosa is a large number of small hemorrhages, spots Wischnewsky ...".
Tumanov:.
The expert, Vozrozhdenniy interprets petty-hemorrhage as a spot of Wischnewsky. But at the same time, in the stomach of Dyatlov, "about 100 cubic cm of liquid mucous mass of a brownish reddish color", "the mucous membrane of the stomach is lilac-red, swollen," and "the lips are covered with gore".
Most likely, Dyatlov had vomiting before his death with an admixture of blood. The source of bleeding is the gastric mucosa. What caused such a vomiting - poisoning or abnormality of the stomach - can not be established, since there is no case in the materials of the forensic chemical and histological examination.
The certificate of forensic medical expert of Vozrozhdenniy from March 4, 1959:
"... in the region of the forehead on the frontal tubercles, small abrasions are dark red, in the region of the left superciliary arena a brownish-red abrasion, parchment density rises above the surface of the skin, on the upper eyelids small brown-red abrasions, on the nose and tip of the nose - red color of parchment density, 2 x 1.5 cm in size, in the area of ??both cheekbones, abrasions of reddish-brown color under a dry crust 3 x 1.5 x 1 cm, 3 x 0.5 cm, on the left, and on the right small abrasions . In the region of the left cheek, small abrasions are dark brown in parchment density. In the area of ??the knee joints on the right and on the left, grazes of dark red color, 1 x 0.5 cm in size and 0.5 by 0.5 cm in parchment density without hemorrhage into the underlying tissues ... ".
Tumanov :.
Igor could get these bruises when he fell on the snow.
The certificate of forensic medical expert of Vozrozhdenniy from March 4, 1959:.
"... In the region of the left ankle joint on the anterior lateral and posterior surfaces, in the areas of both ankles bruised-red abrasions are impressed over the surface of the skin, and also at the skin level, measuring 1 x 0.5 cm, up to 3 x 2; 5 cm, with a hemorrhage into the underlying soft tissues. In the area of ??abrasions one cut is visible, in the lower third of the right shin the skin is covered by 4 x 2 cm ... ".
Tumanov:.
But these damage from falling on the snow will not get. They could appear from circular compression in the ankle, for example as a result of binding by a rope.
The certificate of forensic medical expert of Vozrozhdenniy from March 4, 1959:.
"... In the region of the metacarpophalangeal articulations and interphalangeal articulations, soft lacquer-lilac, parchment-dense tissues are covered with dry, crusty crusts with hemorrhage into the underlying tissues. The left brush is a brown-lilac color with brown-red color, parchment density, 1 by 0.5 cm in size, and 2 by 0.2 cm. The skin is in the area of ??the back surface of the 2nd 4th finger ... ".
Tumanov:.
Obviously, shortly before his death, Igor had to hit with a brush, clenched into a fist, over a hard object.
Loose-Cannon
25-09-2017 22:03 (GMT)
Thank to the fine interweb detection abilities of KMM, we have a recent analysis of the criminal case, studied by forensic expert Eduard Tumanov! Tumanov is a highly regarded modern Russian forensic expert.
Now with Yuri Krivonishenko!.
Yuri Krivonishenko (found next to Doroshenko).
The certificate of forensic medical expert of Vozrozhdenniy from March 4, 1959:.
"... in the right temporal region and the occipital region a diffuse hemorrhage with impregnation of the right temporal muscle ...".
Tumanov:.
It's strange, but Krivonischenko's craniocerebral trauma is only in the description of the act, and in conclusion about the reasons for his death there is none. But this damage was formed as a result of a blow (or blows) by a solid blunt object (or objects) in the right temporal and occipital areas of the head of Yuri. It can not be ruled out that the trauma could be obtained by falling from the standing position and by hitting the right temporal and occipital areas of the head against a hard blunt object. With such a trauma there could be hemorrhages in the brain, but the disintegration of the brain substance in Krivonishchenko destroyed all the informative signs.
The certificate of forensic medical expert of Vozrozhdenniy from March 4, 1959:.
"... on the middle phalanx of the middle finger (right hand, - Auth.), The epidermal defect in shape and size coincides with that found in the oral cavity ...".
Tumanov:.
Again the same rake. In the description of the act about the bite is written, and in the conclusion about death - not a word. But this one line gives reason to believe that Krivonishenko himself bitten himself by the finger, snatching a piece of leather. What does it mean? Perhaps Yuri tried to restrain the cry with severe pain. Perhaps, it was important that someone at that moment did not hear it.
The certificate of forensic medical expert of Vozrozhdenniy from March 4, 1959:.
"... On the inner surface of the upper third of the left thigh, there are three dermal wounds of a linear shape with even margins as deep as 0.3 cm with sharp angles of 1.5 to 0.4 cm ...".
Tumanov:.
I can assume that these "wounds" - cuts - were formed from a sharp object. Knife, glass, blade - anything.
The certificate of forensic medical expert of Vozrozhdenniy from March 4, 1959:.
"... In the middle part of the forehead, a section of a 0.3-by-0.3 cm round-shaped precipitation is of a brownish-red color of parchment density. ... In the left temporal region, two abrasions of a brownish-red color of parchment density, a size of 1.2 to 0.3 cm and 1 cm to 0.2 cm ... ".
Tumanov:.
It is doubtful that these abrasions were formed when the person fell face down on the snow. Then the nose and the superciliary arches would be buried, and there would be more scratches on the forehead. These abrasions of Krivonischenko from blows with a solid blunt object (or hitting against similar objects) at an acute angle.
The certificate of forensic medical expert of Vozrozhdenniy from March 4, 1959:.
"Burns of the left thigh and shin 2-3 degrees (near the fire)".
Tumanov:.
Suppose, second-degree burns can be obtained by negligence, falling asleep at the fire. But third-degree burns are charring (!) Of soft tissues. To achieve this effect, you need to keep your feet in the fire for a long time. Get in a dream such a burn is impossible, burns already 1-st degree cause severe pain and awakening. In this case, third-degree burns could be formed if a person was in deep depression, for example, into intoxication (he did not feel pain or could not pull his leg off, - Auth.) Next to a strong fire.
The certificate of forensic medical expert of Vozrozhdenniy from March 4, 1959:.
"... In the middle third of the nose a brown-red abrasion, parchment density, passing into the wound in the tip of the nose and wings with a defect of soft tissues measuring 1.8 x 2 cm, the bottom of the wound is the cartilage of the nasal septum, right nasal passage ...".
Tumanov:.
Wounds on the nose are caused by animals and after the death of Yuri. Otherwise, there would be traces of bleeding.
Loose-Cannon
25-09-2017 22:00 (GMT)
Thank to the fine interweb detection abilities of KMM, we have a recent analysis of the criminal case, studied by forensic expert Eduard Tumanov! Tumanov is a highly regarded modern Russian forensic expert.
Lets start with Yuri Doroshenko!
It is impossible to confirm that two people were frozen at the bonfire
YURI DOROSHENKO (found under the cedar near the remains of the fire)
The certificate of forensic medical expert of Vozrozhdenniy from March 4, 1959:
"... Doroshenko's death came as a result of exposure to low temperature, ... as evidenced by edema of the meninges, a sharp plethora of internal organs, a dark liquid overflowing the heart cavities, the presence of Wischnewsky spots on the stomach mucosa, bladder overflow, frostbite of the limbs and burn II - III degrees around the fire. " .
Tumanov: .
Given the putrefaction of the corpse, it is highly doubtful that a forensic expert could see all of the above signs at the autopsy. Thus, Vozrozhdenniy, in support of the diagnosis, writes - "... as evidenced by the swelling of the meninges ..." at the same time, at the autopsy reports - "... The substance of the brain is a mass of a jelly-like reddish-green color. Gray matter of the brain is hardly distinguishable from white matter. The contours of the lateral ventricles of the brain are hardly distinguishable ... ".
With such a transformation of the brain, it is impossible to see the swelling of the meninges! .
The presence of dark blood is not a sign of death from hypothermia, on the contrary, when supercooled, the blood is bright red due to the high content of oxyhemoglobin.
The resulted statement about a frostbite of fingers of extremities is not proved. There is nothing about this in the text of the study.
These circumstances (see General Comment, point 3) allow us to say that Doroshenko's death came as a result of hypothermia, only in a hypothetical form.
Loose-Cannon
25-09-2017 21:13 (GMT)
KMM... sent you a message
Lyndasez
25-09-2017 21:10 (GMT)
@KMM, (That's the part I must of missed. Maybe you haven't got to it yet.)
Lol, hey don't knock it, like you say, a lot of unsolved murders could be solved!
Nigel's got Roller BL...
I call Cyberknife BL! ...That covers the Ripper and Black Dahlia mysteries!!!
Loose-Cannon
25-09-2017 21:09 (GMT)
TRANSLATION .
"he convinced me that no such facilities were nearby and no possibility of missile launches." . Nothing to see here.... move along now (pat on the head).
"But, there was one instance that put us on the alert. When the last bodies were found later in May, an order came to collect all items found at the pass and send them for radiological examination". The first bodies showed us something your not allowed to know about which is why Im ordering you to test for radiation.
"Also, all people who had been in contact with the things found in the tent and nearby were ordered to undergo body counting." While your at it... test all these ground peasants that were at the tent and touched crap also.
" So it was done, but neither a reassuring, nor any other results were made known to us. And again, the fact of some secret military tests being held was coming to mind." . This is way above your paygrade... go look for some fireballs or something.
"We applied with a letter signed by the Oblast Prosecutor to either the Prosecutor General of the USSR or the Federal – I don’t remember exactly now – asking to explain what really we were investigating into? And how it was related to radiation? Could it be so that even the top commandant of the Urals Military District knew nothing of any tests of armaments held there? In response to our letter, Deputy Prosecutor General, comrade Urakov came to meet with us and gave orders that we were to all tell anyone who asked that the hikers’ death was an accident". Listen up peasant... Not only am I NOT going to answer your question, but I came all the way down here to personally tell you to shut your big fat mouth about radiation and tell everyone it was an "accident".
"Urakov evaded all our direct questions about tests of armaments. I mean, he did not deny this version, but simply avoided direct answers." . Pft.... this is on a need to know basis and your not in the loop.
"What’s more, Urakov took absolutely no interest in the course of our investigation, as if the picture of the scene was absolutely clear to him already. He, however, took the case away with him." . We know something that you dont, so we are yanking the rug out from under you.
"With that, our investigation came to an end. Just imagine: at the very height of the investigation, when dead bodies with strange injuries have just been found, the case is being taken away!" . CLEAR EVIDENCE OF A COVERUP
"And I clearly remember when we were signing our letter in the office of Oblast Prosecutor Klinov, he himself asked in doubt whether we had omitted something and had not fully checked one or the other evidence? We told him that if the top officials discard the military incident version, then all is left to us is to consider other possible versions. He found our considerations convincing, and signed the letter. But, again, the reaction from Moscow was such that our suppositions of a military involvement had been neither confirmed nor disproved..." . You go look for leprechauns and unicorns little boy, you are done here.
Nigel Evans
25-09-2017 21:04 (GMT)
@KMM - "What facts does it address that you couldn't take the BL out and replace with almost anything "
Be my guest.
@Lightning - aren't there youtube videos of stuff like this? People filming their path?
Lightning
25-09-2017 20:38 (GMT)
It would be nice if somebody takes a journey from dent site to the forest where two Yuris died and from there to the ravine and films it... Anybody here who has some cash to spent?
KMM
25-09-2017 20:28 (GMT)
Nigel: What fact wrt the DPI does the BL theory not address? And what's this agenda i have?
What facts does it address that you couldn't take the BL out and replace with almost anything ?
Nigel Evans
25-09-2017 20:23 (GMT)
@LC - the superior admitted that they had no solution to the DPI his point was that the investigation was removed from them by Central office unsolved with orders for them to fabricate a dummy report as an "accident" and tough it out with parents of the deceased. So that's well worth remembering when shouting about official case files. Ivanov restated his fireball theory many years later, so it's reasonable to assume it was his genuine view and his best guess.
What fact wrt the DPI does the BL theory not address? And what's this agenda i have?
Loose-Cannon
25-09-2017 20:09 (GMT)
Yeah, they guy with a superior that admits it was a white-wash cover-up witch left Ivanov speculating and changing his theory for decades.
You see things ass backwards imho.
"The BL theory is a first class fit for the facts"
No Nigel, it is not.. it fits only false facts you have construed to push an agenda.
Nigel Evans
25-09-2017 19:37 (GMT)
@KMM - au contraire mon ami. The BL theory is a first class fit for the facts and is favoured by the chief detective described as "meticulous and very thorough" by his superiors )
KMM
25-09-2017 19:22 (GMT)
Nigel Evans 25-09-2017 18:51 (GMT) - well i'm burdened with trying to find a theory to fit the facts.
That's the part I must of missed. Maybe you haven't got to it yet.
Nigel Evans
25-09-2017 19:16 (GMT)
@LC -
The ravine is only nine feet deep. Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (p. 120). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
I think that picture of the den is the depth of the ravine. Doesn't rule out an overhang/wind slab though.
@Lyndasez - best of luck.
Lyndasez
25-09-2017 18:54 (GMT)
Nigel, The same with the least amount of wild assumptions!
Nigel Evans
25-09-2017 18:51 (GMT)
@Lyndasez - well i'm burdened with trying to find a theory to fit the facts. Don't know what you're doing.
Loose-Cannon
25-09-2017 18:46 (GMT)
This was taken somewhere in the area of DP. I would imagine something of this nature in the ravine but on a smaller scale.
Its down in a ditch with boulders at the bottom, thats for certain. Those are just the pics I have on file. You can easily imagine a snow bank/drift on one side adding height/angle/distance to the bottom.
Lightning
25-09-2017 18:23 (GMT)
Thank you Loose Cannon. Doesn't look very steep tough......
Lyndasez
25-09-2017 18:18 (GMT)
Nigel, Then you are a glutton for punishment ...
Your theory has too many outlandish assumptions.
BL without leaving traces...
Special KGB cameras
Terrified experienced hikers who flee an extraordinary occurrence, yet, ordinary locals don't put their lives in jeopardy
A triage set up in the ravine
SZ taking notes in the throes of death
Explosions that have an impact on people yet leaves the area untouched
KGB film left at scene and disseminated
The hikers maps were approved
They deliberately went where the coordinates of BL were noted
(Inspection report of the scene Sheet 3 Inspection report Places of Incident February 27, 1959)
Which I used to tell Nigel, the Russian info is not to be trusted....because one thing says this and another negates it...that all.
Loose-Cannon
25-09-2017 16:49 (GMT)
The finger missing was part of an interview/interrogation/testimony.... The person was simply wrong.
This was not part of the official autopsy or any other file in which a determination was established.
Lyndasez
25-09-2017 16:36 (GMT)
Loose-Cannon, Nigel is misbehaving, for fun!
Lyndasez
25-09-2017 16:29 (GMT)
No matter the proof. Official docs shouldn't have these discrepancies....or should be amended. That was my initial point...
Loose-Cannon
25-09-2017 16:28 (GMT)
"@LC - i'm assuming that the examination of the SZ film was competent. Your argument is that it was incompetent or disingenuous. Posting images of negs from other peoples cameras to prove this is just pointless"
Incorrect again. The only person conducting themselves with misinformation propaganda to fit a narrative is..... you.
A negative with sprocket holes is a negative with sprocket holes. Your holy grail pictures are scans of negatives, and the light areas would have been dark areas when developed.
This isn't freaking rocket science..... There are no mysterious pictures of fireballs of light. Fact
Lyndasez
25-09-2017 16:27 (GMT)
Nigel, The whole index finger is obscured in that photo as well...
LC, Nigel is having fun with you... :c)
Loose-Cannon
25-09-2017 16:23 (GMT)
"The skin on the back of the left palm is torn off{{.Between the fingers is blood. The index finger is ripped off."
Left.. left... left.
Its redundant anyhow and I likely shouldnt have posted it. The statement came from a university search party individual as he recalled the cedar scene.
@LC - i'm assuming that the examination of the SZ film was competent. Your argument is that it was incompetent or disingenuous. Posting images of negs from other peoples cameras to prove this is just pointless.
Lyndasez
25-09-2017 16:15 (GMT)
LC, Did you post the right pic? Because the index finger if it's there, is hidden by his hair??
The ripped off finger part I posted specifically to show the inconsistencies within accounts vs the actual autopsy report. I know the finger was not ripped off because you can count them all in the photo. http://image.ibb.co/b4h4W5/krivonishenko_07_02.jpg .
@Nigel- "you're assuming SZ's camera was standard, the negs you're showing aren't from his camera." . Your assuming that SZs camera was NOT standard. Then what camera were they from??
Lyndasez
25-09-2017 15:57 (GMT)
Nigel, They are masters at disinformation & coverup. For example: LC says: a finger is ripped off. You say: not true!
Well your both right according to offical docs, autopsy doesn't say so. However inspection at the scene does!
Sheet 4. Identified: Krivonischenko Yuri
"The skin on the back of the left palm is torn off{{.Between the fingers is blood. The index finger is ripped off. }}The skin on the lower leg of the left leg was torn off, blood came out. There are no other injuries during the external examination. Next to him with Krivonischenko, is the corpse of Zolotarev? (from above it is written in parentheses: "mistake" Alexander Alekseevich."
Nigel Evans
25-09-2017 15:53 (GMT)
Military accident - Doesn't explain why a high ranking legal official would travel 400 miles to attend 5 autopsies over three days.
It's weirder than an accident?
@LC - you're assuming SZ's camera was standard, the negs you're showing aren't from his camera.
Nigel Evans
25-09-2017 15:49 (GMT)
Doesn't explain why a high ranking legal official would travel 400 miles to attend 5 autopsies over three days.
Loose-Cannon
25-09-2017 15:46 (GMT)
"@LC - casts the official case file in a new light though. It's a dummy with the real one being elsewhere."
Cant rule it out!
In my opinion though, Its more likely that information and files within 1 case simply went poof which makes everyone observing it in totality missing several key ingredients.
Note... The holes are opposite colors simply because the trips held to the window and were backlighted with white light. The other was scanned which attributes a black background to this area.
Nigel Evans
25-09-2017 15:40 (GMT)
@LC - casts the official case file in a new light though. It's a dummy with the real one being elsewhere.
Lyndasez
25-09-2017 15:39 (GMT)
Nigel, "EO thinks the deaths are connected with rocket testing."
Could be! At a certain elevation rocket boosters fall away from main body of the craft and fall to earth, where? who knows but a cleanup crew picks it up.
Loose-Cannon
25-09-2017 15:26 (GMT)
Everyone had their opinion.
Could be, maybe, prehaps, maybe not. The only thing this clears up for me is the fact a major cover-up took place. Something embarrassing to the Kremlin.
Nigel Evans
25-09-2017 15:12 (GMT)
Then there's an interview with EO and a defence lawyer, Leonid Proshkin who had studied the case.
It goes on to say that a further site inspection once the snows had melted as abandoned because they couldn't get a permit... Central office refusing the criminal investigation team further access to the site. Central party figures present at the five autopsies was highly unusual.
Central office basically closed the case and instructed EO and Ivanov to state it was an accident and "rig" the report to fit that. EO states how good Ivanov was as an investigator describing him as meticulous and very thorough. He says they found it quite stressfull dealing with the parents who wanted answers but they had to follow orders.
Missing documentation is noted, all the personel on the case would be assigned via official orders but this is missing.
EO thinks the deaths are connected with rocket testing.
Lyndasez
25-09-2017 12:33 (GMT)
Nigel, Yeah, lol, okay! ;c)
Nigel Evans
25-09-2017 12:23 (GMT)
@Lyndasez - LC seems to have bought the "it's not developed story", just bursting his buuble and pointing out it's not that simple.
Anyway Semyon's camera could be a special KGB camera, who knows what it could do .
Nigel Evans
25-09-2017 10:49 (GMT)
Good to see you guys still discussing the BL theory in lieu of anything better.... Gives me the confidence to go on in my lonely struggle for truth and wisdom.
@KMM - i'm still waiting for the next theory to complement the two heard so far... Wind and then flapping tent, how do you come up with this stuff? Unrecognised genius? Possibly going to stay that way...
@IVANOV - i don't have that many roubles in my piggy bank. How about 2 Euros and a copy of Kylie Minogues, "I can't get you out of my head" and a piece of chewing gum?
IVANOV
25-09-2017 03:10 (GMT)
Send me 521,659 Rubles and Ill tell you everything you need to know.
Lyndasez
25-09-2017 03:01 (GMT)
LC & KMM, Omg...lol, let the guy come up for air!!!
He's a good sport------> "@IVANOV - hi there i could use some help with this motley crew."
KMM
25-09-2017 02:09 (GMT)
Loose-Cannon 25-09-2017 01:11 (GMT) Caught me a fireball the other night with my cellphone! 8^O .
Have you got stopped running yet ? :-P
Loose-Cannon
25-09-2017 01:11 (GMT)
Caught me a fireball the other night with my cellphone! 8^O .
see those sprocket holes? That thar is a negative. This means Nigels white orb is a black shit stain when developed.
Lyndasez
24-09-2017 23:10 (GMT)
They took SZs film processed it, meaning subjected it to chemicals to make it insensitive to light, they have an negative, reverse image ...they place that on a contact sheet expose it to light which places a positive image on the sheet, when chemically developed the image appears.
Think they'd say photo or contact if this were true, not negative.
Lyndasez
24-09-2017 23:01 (GMT)
"on the {{negatives}}were small black dots and some very small pale dots. To the human eye, these dots could not be identified. These dots were nothing like the much larger frame of the bright orb."
The black dots could be light, hard to say they're clearly examining a compromised negative. They're playin you....we're lookin for black orbs on a negative.
KMM
24-09-2017 22:41 (GMT)
Loose-Cannon 24-09-2017 22:38 (GMT) "Doesn't matter, anyway, unless we're looking at "developed film," you're looking at a reverse image (negative)." .
Bingo.... Nigels black orbs have no light. lol
I'm sure he will say "DARK BL", related to dark matter. :-)
Loose-Cannon
24-09-2017 22:38 (GMT)
"Doesn't matter, anyway, unless we're looking at "developed film," you're looking at a reverse image (negative)." .
Bingo.... Nigels black orbs have no light. lol
Lyndasez
24-09-2017 22:21 (GMT)
Doesn't matter, anyway, unless we're looking at "developed film," you're looking at a reverse image (negative).
Lyndasez
24-09-2017 22:17 (GMT)
@Nigel, "It is claimed that under a microscope they can be seen to be exposures."
Yes, the film was over exposed due to the elements, meaning it's garbage. Same would happen if you took photos with a roll of film then unraveled the film in a lit area or swished it in water. Those exposures you took are now toast!
Nigel Evans
24-09-2017 22:07 (GMT)
@LC - "now debunked. They are negatives which is evident by the film gear slots and thus." It is claimed that under a microscope they can be seen to be exposures.
Lyndasez
24-09-2017 21:59 (GMT)
@KMM, Yeah, sorry, but he's pissin in the wind with this BL theory. First he says it "hit the den area vaporizing snow with heat stronger than the sun," but left a twig seat intact, there's no massive amounts of solid ice, snapped trees, or burnt victims!?..
Now it's accounts of people seeing lights --one so close he thought planets were colliding, but these kids defied death to run from it an stay away...?!
KMM
24-09-2017 21:42 (GMT)
Lyndasez: Hell, those folks in the story Nigel posted didn't jump out windows! However, there was a boat load of destruction in its path, which Nigel hasn't accounted in his DPI theory! I don't think the crews of any of the sailing ship accounts jumped overboard and swam for the open ocean either>
Lyndasez
24-09-2017 20:55 (GMT)
Given the background of this group, radio engineers, secret nuclear plant workers, Physics Major, and War survivor ....something tells me these cats don't scare easy... Alex would've wanted his pic taken beside BL, and the rest would be fighting over who saw it first!
Hell, those folks in the story Nigel posted didn't jump out windows! However, there was a boat load of destruction in its path, which Nigel hasn't accounted in his DPI theory!
KMM
24-09-2017 20:47 (GMT)
Nigel Evans 24-09-2017 19:34 (GMT) @KMM - three eye witness accounts in two months (from memory) including the investigation team onsite and the ski group said their's was over Mt Otorten. Not sure about the meteorologist.
Doesn't matter what the zoom is to me, it's what's there after it's zoomed.
So, you have no evidence of what happened to DP group. Just some hearsay stuff about lights seen in sky elsewhere !
Loose-Cannon
24-09-2017 19:41 (GMT)
Nigel..
I hate to be the one that reminds you of this, but other photos shown as SZs are now debunked. They are negatives which is evident by the film gear slots and thus.... Your little blotches at 30x magnification are would actually be black spots if developed. To add insult to injury, they have been proven to reside outside of the viewable rectangle area where the pictures exposure takes place.
Its ALL bs..... Not just the three amigos.
Nigel Evans
24-09-2017 19:34 (GMT)
@KMM - three eye witness accounts in two months (from memory) including the investigation team onsite and the ski group said their's was over Mt Otorten. Not sure about the meteorologist.
Doesn't matter what the zoom is to me, it's what's there after it's zoomed.
KMM
24-09-2017 18:47 (GMT)
Nigel : AT 30X ZOOM !!
KMM
24-09-2017 18:44 (GMT)
@ nigel "A person saying they saw a light in the sky 50 miles away is NOT an eye witness ! " 50km away and how else are they going to witness a light in the sky other than being some distance from it? Except on a mountain top?..
So their just a witness to a light in the sky, NOT, I repeat, NOT a witness to anything to do with the DP group !
Nigel Evans
24-09-2017 18:39 (GMT)
@KMM - "your BL photo got shot down" No, the theory that SZ had a secret camera and the three heads was an original non processed photo got shot down (by my investigation and no one elses ....). But the evidence remains, photos of lights from three cameras. Semyon took a lot of shots, say 10 which at 30x zoom show distinct similarities to eye witness reports. But granted the photographic evidence is not conclusive and open to interpretation. Not so the eye witness reports.
"A person saying they saw a light in the sky 50 miles away is NOT an eye witness ! " 50km away and how else are they going to witness a light in the sky other than being some distance from it? Except on a mountain top?....
KMM
24-09-2017 18:24 (GMT)
Nigel: @KMM - "see, its not that hard " that's far worse than the first attempt. I'm sensing desperation.
The thing is nigel you have NO actual evidence ! your BL photo got shot down A person saying they saw a light in the sky 50 miles away is NOT an eye witness !
Nigel Evans
24-09-2017 17:48 (GMT)
As an aside i've just read this, the spare valenki must have been Rustems, shows the immediacy of their exit from the tent :-
By the entrance was a furnace; baskets; water flasks, one of which was filled with alcohol; a saw; and an axe.Deeper inside were the cameras. Further back was a bag with maps and documents, Dyatlov’s camera, a can containing money, Kolmogorova’s diary and windbreakers belonging to Dyatlov and Kolevatov. In the corner was a bag of rusks and another bag containing breakfast cereal. Next to them was a pair of boots. The other six pairs of boots were at the opposite side of the tent. In the middle of the tent were three pairs of valenki and one single one. Next to the rusks there was a log taken from the place of the previous camp. Above all, there was a ski pole, scored at several places.
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (pp. 50-51). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
Nigel Evans
24-09-2017 17:45 (GMT)
@LC - Some people also wonder about something else apparently found in the labaz: Dyatlov’s boots. How could he have skied if he wasn’t wearing his boots? Yudin’s answer was that, with the semi-rigid ‘soldiers’ mount’ (or bracing) that strapped over the top of the footwear, it was possible to ski in valenki and, moreover, Krivonischenko, for one, preferred to ski in these felt boots.
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (p. 122). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
Loose-Cannon
24-09-2017 14:05 (GMT)
"maybe his ski boots didn't fit that well".
I would imagine that a well regarded professional and university star of the program on the most important trip of his life to obtain the ultimate goal of level 3........ might have boots that fit.
Nigel Evans
24-09-2017 11:33 (GMT)
@Lyndasez - "Well don't hold back, where was the direction of force, we'd know from collateral damage....where and what would that be??? " From above?
@KMM - "see, its not that hard " that's far worse than the first attempt. I'm sensing desperation..
@LC - bruised ankles maybe his ski boots didn't fit that well.
@IVANOV - hi there i could use some help with this motley crew.
Nigel Evans
24-09-2017 11:22 (GMT)
@Lyndasez - "Well don't hold back, where was the direction of force, we'd know from collateral damage....where and what would that be??? " From above?
KMM
24-09-2017 02:09 (GMT)
LC NOTE: Back and front of both ankles bruised with abrasions and hemorrhaging. Was he dragged or something? Strung upside down? Was he bound at the ankles and relocated? Was his hands bound aswell? His frozen position is strange to me at best.
Yeah,I have seen reports they were roped/used a rope all the way down the slope. Didnt know if it was definite enough to argue
IVANOV
24-09-2017 01:32 (GMT)
Yup... their dead.
D - E - A - D as in dead. Move along now, nothing to see here! Where's me Ivanov vodka?
Oh looky, a squirrel...
KMM
24-09-2017 01:28 (GMT)
Lyndasez 24-09-2017 00:56 (GMT) @KMM, Have you read Nigel's theory? Cedar guys were stuck by lightning... BL creates hot spot (crusted ice) near tent ...but he neglects to explain how these microwaves didn't melt its path or its burst didn't snap and scorch trees.
I've read ALL his comments like he "instructed" me to do right off the bat !!
Lyndasez
24-09-2017 01:26 (GMT)
@LC, Good catch! These bone-heads are covering something up. Thanks again for that hibinaud link cleared up a bunch for me!
Loose-Cannon
24-09-2017 01:11 (GMT)
@Lyndasez
March 4, 1959 The autopsy is done and signed. Within the text states... "On the night of February 2, under unclear circumstances, all 9 people died"
They determined the rav4 dead very early when they could have very well been alive for all they knew as the bodies had not been found.
Basically shithead Ivanov at the time 2yuris, Igor, Rustem, and Zina were just found... declared the rav4 dead. Nigel will tell you its perfectly acceptable, but in reality it shows his utter neglection of duty and pure incompetence.
Loose-Cannon
24-09-2017 01:02 (GMT)
On tonight's episode of "WHAT THE BL GESTAPO DOES NOT WANT YOU TO KNOW"
We take a look at the body if Igor Dyatlov. Why might you ask?? Because its small potatoes!!! .
"STUDIES OF THE CITIZEN DYATLOV Igor Alekseevich, 23 years old on March 4, 1959".
"The cuffs are buttoned. In a breast pocket there was a packing "streptotsid" with 4 tablets". Note: Hmmmmm Guess he has a habit of carrying this around in case of emergencies?
"in the forehead area on the frontal tubercles, small abrasions of a dark red color". NOTE: Abrasion on the forehead. You can see the severity of the 'small' abrasion below. Looks to me like a half dollar size of his scalp is pealed back! Unless.... they are talking about other abrasions of the forehead, which would make this pictured wound UNDOCUMENTED! http://image.ibb.co/c9ONzQ/PkTFfHW2.jpg
"in the region of the left brow, a brown-red abrasion, parchment density rises above the surface of the skin" NOTE: Abrasion left eyebrow, skin of affected area is swollen, or its an open cut with raised edges. You decide.
"small brown abrasions on the upper eyelids". NOTE: Self explanatory.
"on the dorsum of the nose and the tip of the site of the brownish-red color amentnoy density, dimensions 2 x 1.5 cm in both chines abrasion brown-red color under dry crust 3 x 1.5 x 1 cm, 3 x 0.5 cm, -.. the left and right small abrasions". NOTES: I dunno but it sounds like several abrasions of the nose.
"Lips of cyanotic-lilac color, covered with gore". NOTE: Blood, pus, spit.... gore! .
"On the upper jaw teeth white, smooth, rare, on the lower jaw there is no central incisor without a change in the mucous gum" NOTE: From what I understand, he was already missing this tooth. However, this reads as if the gum has not 'changed', or possibly 'recovered'. Knocked out tooth or prior extraction... You decide.
"In the area of ??the knee joints on the right and on the left, grazes of dark red color, measuring 1 x 0.5 cm. 0.5 to 0.5 cm of parchment density without hemorrhage into the underlying tissues". NOTE: I would kinda expect these crawling around and whatnot.
"In the region of the left ankle sushutava on the anterior lateral and posterior surfaces, in areas of both ankles bruise-red abrasions, colors pressed over the surface of the skin, as well as on ???? skin, size 1 x 0.5 cm, up to 3 x 2, 5 cm, with a hemorrhage into the underlying soft tissue. " NOTE: Back and front of both ankles bruised with abrasions and hemorrhaging. Was he dragged or something? Strung upside down? Was he bound at the ankles and relocated? Was his hands bound aswell? His frozen position is strange to me at best. http://image.ibb.co/dXT865/dyatloff_igor.jpg . The murder theorist are going to rake Nigel over the coals with this on imo.
"on the outer side in the lower third of the right forearm, on the palmar surface, small abrasions of dark red color of parchment density". Note: Outside of the right forearm abrasions.
"The rear of the right hand is lilac-gray in color. In the region of the metacarpophalangeal articulations and between the phalangeal joints, soft lacquer-lilac, parchment-dense tissues are covered with dry, crusty crusts with hemorrhage into the underlying tissues". Note: Right back of hand is discolored, and the metacarpophalangeal articulations (knuckle joints) are dry and crusty with bleeding into the underlying tissue of the hand. These are the knuckles closest to the body of the hand...... the ones effected when punching something, or someone.
"In the region of the palmar surface of the 2nd 5th finger, the cutaneous wound of an irregularly linear shape with even edges located transversely to the long finger of the fingers, wounds of a surface depth of 0.1 (or 0.2 - approx.) See Bones and cartilages of the skeleton at feeling whole". NOTE: Somewhere on the left hand middle AND ring finger cutaneous (of the skin) wound /wounds that are literally busted open down to the bone.
Lyndasez
24-09-2017 00:59 (GMT)
@Loose Cannon, Hey, what was up with that previous post about proceedings?...what didn't I see??
"Sorry if this is off-topic, but does anyone else see what Im seeing here"
Lyndasez
24-09-2017 00:56 (GMT)
@KMM, Have you read Nigel's theory? Cedar guys were stuck by lightning... BL creates hot spot (crusted ice) near tent ...but he neglects to explain how these microwaves didn't melt its path or its burst didn't snap and scorch trees.
Loose-Cannon
24-09-2017 00:45 (GMT)
Igor autopsy coming up....
KMM
24-09-2017 00:44 (GMT)
OK Nigel, The windward side of the tent was ripped open by powerful wind. inflating the tent and filling it with blowing snow. It is bouncing up and down in the wind threatening to blow down the slope. someone takes a knife and slits the other side to let some wind out and maybe create an exit. The group has panicked (remember it happens with BL ) thinking they are going to be launched in the air and down the slope. so they leave, get blown around on the rocks and ice.
see, its not that hard
KMM
24-09-2017 00:27 (GMT)
Nigel Evans 23-09-2017 23:50 (GMT) @KMM - "I don't see it ! I could craft several theories to fit, none containing BL. How about a freakish strong wind lasting a few hours. " and you'd leave the tent half dressed? Maybe the next of your several theories will be better.
You need to remember you are arguing BL !!!! 8-)
Lyndasez
24-09-2017 00:17 (GMT)
@Nigel, "it all depends on the direction of the force?"
Well don't hold back, where was the direction of force, we'd know from collateral damage....where and what would that be???
Lyndasez
24-09-2017 00:13 (GMT)
Nigel, Question is ...why'd Thibi n SZ have boots? You don't suit up to take a pee. And if you're going with SZ was there to film it, he'd have calmed the situation, he knew panicking an running out half dressed was deadly.
Loose-Cannon
23-09-2017 23:56 (GMT)
"My ass is sitting on top of the hill"
If so, its a long long looooong way to hit rock bottom.
Hey,.. is there a boulder filled ravine at the bottom? That would be great. thanks. ROFLMAO
Nigel Evans
23-09-2017 23:54 (GMT)
@Lyndasez - "seats blown to oblivion" it all depends on the direction of the force?
Nigel Evans
23-09-2017 23:53 (GMT)
@LC - i like you to sometimes. My ass is sitting on top of the hill..
Nigel Evans
23-09-2017 23:51 (GMT)
Hell Lynda seven didn't have boots or gloves?
Nigel Evans
23-09-2017 23:50 (GMT)
@KMM - "I don't see it ! I could craft several theories to fit, none containing BL. How about a freakish strong wind lasting a few hours. " and you'd leave the tent half dressed? Maybe the next of your several theories will be better....
Lyndasez
23-09-2017 23:40 (GMT)
@Nigel, "They leave the tent in their socks. No felt boots or gloves."
Had you read my post about the victims....
Thibi had felt boots.
SZ was maxed out, he had quilted burki.
"Men wore a special kind of valenki called burki. The bottom looked like leather boots, but upper part was made of white felt, framed with dark leather strips to protect from moisture and to contrast white felt. In Soviet times burki were worn by military officers, and heads of collective farms."
Hence, no 9th track, the warm barefeet left tracks (ice crust) till they cooled...
KMM
23-09-2017 23:40 (GMT)
Nigel: They leave the tent in their socks. No felt boots or gloves. They walk to the cedar with no sign of any other tracks, leaving a flashlight at a position suggesting a beacon to assist the return. They light a fire at the cedar, seemingly unable to return to the tent and make use of a den 70m away. (the den was found because of a trail of branch fragments used to construct the seats leading into the ravine snow, so they did use it even if they didn't construct it). Pathologist talks of ravine injuries requiring superhuman force suggesting energy similar to a car accident or a bomb.
I don't see it ! I could craft several theories to fit, none containing BL. How about a freakish strong wind lasting a few hours.
Loose-Cannon
23-09-2017 23:09 (GMT)
Nigel.
Your last post is precisely what I am talking about.
"They walk to the cedar with no sign of any other tracks, leaving a flashlight at a position suggesting a beacon to assist the return." . #1IIRC there wasn't any footprints to count or tracks in the treeline and into the ravine to observe, so in reality there could have been 300 people walking around down there and nobody would have ever known it. #2 Could have been a potty light also. WE DONT KNOW
"They light a fire at the cedar, seemingly unable to return to the tent and make use of a den 70m away. (the den was found because of a trail of branch fragments used to construct the seats" #1 Its a long ways back up there to a destroyed tent, or was it destroyed? WE DONT KNOW #2 Bingo... They did NOT find the den (if there was a den) because of foot tracks. how many people were in the treeline/ravine? WE DONT KNOW
"Injuries ambiguous or otherwise, slits internal or external etc etc are small potatoes compared to what caused the above." #1 When you dont know what the above answers are (you may think you do, but you dont)... better start looking at smaller potatoes! #2 I wouldnt expect you to look for indications of not BL probabilities.... your not going to change now. # #3 Imagine that.... someone you know found dead. Would you expect all the potatoes to be looked at especially their physical injuries? Unbelievable
"Of course the BL theory knocks these questions down like skittles." Incorrect sir as your questions are bias and relatively invalid to begin with. This is exactly the arrogance I speak of, and the narrow mindedness that gets all of us no where.
"My problem with your thinking is that you're ignoring the big questions and trying reverse engineer a solution by proving that the injury profile shows human violence when an experienced policemen didn't see that. It's your mission to find a non BL solution at all costs, i'm just sitting at the top of the hill enjoying the view and throwing rocks at you, no offence :@)"
#1 laff... Nigel, Cmon man..... Your mad because Its to show all readers your unwillingness to accept critical information and otherwise attempt to discard it because it is non conforming to your narrative.
#2 Fighting within themselves in of itself does not eradicate your BL theory. How do you know a fight didnt ensue after having been forced to the treeline by a fireball? Why would that make/break your theory?
Nigel... I like ya man (some times), but you have got to get that head out of the anus asap.
Lyndasez
23-09-2017 22:45 (GMT)
@LC "Sorry if this is off-topic, but does anyone else see what Im seeing here"
What's goin on, what am not seeing?
Lyndasez
23-09-2017 22:36 (GMT)
"They light a fire at the cedar, seemingly unable to return to the tent and make use of a den 70m away. (the den was found because of a trail of branch fragments used to construct the seats leading into the ravine snow, so they did use it even if they didn't construct it). Pathologist talks of ravine injuries requiring superhuman force suggesting energy similar to a car accident or a bomb."
Umm, the docs say 8 followed a trail to ravine, two branched off, (direction of cedar?) where's the 9th?
The den couch, they all put scraps of clothes down in all 4 corners for seats as in pic and don't burn the darn seat for warmth, come on...that seat would've been blown to oblivion, if Rollin BL threw 4 people everywhere!
Nigel Evans
23-09-2017 22:23 (GMT)
@LC - "Why does this 'have' to be ALL BL or nothing for you? Help me to understand this reasoning. "
It doesn't. It's just that there isn't anything else that comes close. Lets trot through the key points yet again.
They leave the tent in their socks. No felt boots or gloves. They walk to the cedar with no sign of any other tracks, leaving a flashlight at a position suggesting a beacon to assist the return. They light a fire at the cedar, seemingly unable to return to the tent and make use of a den 70m away. (the den was found because of a trail of branch fragments used to construct the seats leading into the ravine snow, so they did use it even if they didn't construct it). Pathologist talks of ravine injuries requiring superhuman force suggesting energy similar to a car accident or a bomb.
So those four lines are the BIG issues to solve. Injuries ambiguous or otherwise, slits internal or external etc etc are small potatoes compared to what caused the above.
That's the problem to be solved. Of course the BL theory knocks these questions down like skittles. Then there's the supporting info, eye witness accounts and photographs from three cameras (granted there's room for interpretation) of light phenomena. Ok burnt trees and dead birds are just curiosities.
My problem with your thinking is that you're ignoring the big questions and trying reverse engineer a solution by proving that the injury profile shows human violence when an experienced policemen didn't see that. It's your mission to find a non BL solution at all costs, i'm just sitting at the top of the hill enjoying the view and throwing rocks at you, no offence :@)
Loose-Cannon
23-09-2017 22:15 (GMT)
Sorry if this is off-topic, but does anyone else see what Im seeing here in the opening statements of the autopsy reports of Igor, Rustem, Zina, and the 2Yuris?
This is Igors... all structured the same.
"STUDIES OF THE CITIZEN DYATLOV Igor Alekseevich, 23 years old
March 4, 1959, according to the decision of the Prosecutor's Office of the Sverdlovsk region of March 3, 1959 forensic experts of the Regional Bureau of Forensic Medical Examination of the Sverdlovsk Region VOZROZHDENNIY V.A. and Laptev Yu.I. in the presence of the Public Prosecutor of the Sverdlovsk Region, the State Counselor of Justice of the third class, Klinov NI, prosecutor of the criminal prosecutor of the regional prosecutor's office of the Junior Adviser of Justice IVANOV L.N. and witnessed tov. GORDO S.D. and NASKICHEV K.V. in the premise of the morgue of the central hospital of the office box No. 240 in daylight and sunny weather, a study of the corpse of a citizen DYATLOV IA was made. 23 years, to determine the cause of death and to answer the questions indicated in the resolution.
The circumstances of the case
On January 23, 1959, an amateur group of hikers consisting of 10 people went to a ski resort along the route Ivdel - Mount Oorten. From the site of the 2 nd Northern in the ski trip went 9 people. On February 1, 1959, the group began the ascent to Mount Oorten and in the evening broke the tent near the height of 1079. On the night of February 2, under unclear circumstances, all 9 people died."
Lyndasez
23-09-2017 22:09 (GMT)
Nigel, (" relevant to burns (possibly) and mechanical force (like a car accident)."
No, sorry, doesn't fit your narrative. If BL followed them down a hill where's the sliding pond ice crust from micowaves, where's the crater, where it burst!!..
And if you're going with the aerial rubbish, where's the snapped, scorched trees?!
Lyndasez
23-09-2017 22:02 (GMT)
Luddy had knitted helmet, 2 sweaters, 2 shirts, cotton pants, stockings a host of ragged socks, her stuff was all tore up and hemorrhages to chest caused by broken ribs... All had "bath skin" Don't see any burns to any of these victims!
Lyndasez
23-09-2017 21:54 (GMT)
*contained a folded newspaper...typo
Lyndasez
23-09-2017 21:50 (GMT)
Alex had no shoes, a jacket, pants, shirt, and defects to his cheek and jaw
Thibi had a jacket, pants, socks, felt boots, and a fracture at the base of his skull
SZ had fur hat, jacket, sweaters, black quilted Burki=boots, socks, scarf, overalls, coveralls which continued folded newspaper, ski pants with more bits of newspaper, compressed nose, compressed chest on one side. <--- he was prepared!
I'm not buying this triage set up by Igor, if he was so smart everyone would've been together, an they'd had fashioned torches, if this occurred in the dead of night, not buying this....by the light of the silvery ball lighting thing...
Loose-Cannon
23-09-2017 21:46 (GMT)
Bwahahaha. Nigel pissin people of as usual.
Dont worry KMM, he pulled the same "if you bothered to read my 857 posts, you would know Im right" BS with me also.
@Nigel. "you wouldn't look foolish" I sure dont think kmm looks foolish, and when you start talking like your superior to everyone... it kinda turns people away from the BL theory even more then already stated. I wish you would have taken my advice and keep it simple. Something like... 'BL may possible be the reason why they left the tent and didnt return. BL might have been why they climbed the tree. It also may have come down the slope and injured some and killed others bla bla'....
But when you start talking about all this crap which has zero basis in fact as if it were indeed fact, and then expect other folks to explain their theory/idea to fit 'your' unsubstantiated 'facts', and then insult them...... it irritates the shit outta people and only degrades the quality of discussion. Lord knows I can go full-retard, but I do not get there on my own (like john). I wish it were as easy to point to x,y, and z as definitive proof, but when you start trying to force others to believe in burnt tree tops, hot-spots, secret KGB BL photo mission, james Bond camera, specs of crap out of frame with a 300X zoom, three heads BS thats actually part a zoomed part of another know exposure entirely...... on and on and on.... with no real tangible resources to verify them... It gets old man. just sayin. Its a matter of so many 'ifs' having to galactically align, and if you hold your mouth just right you can see it working.
Even if the injuries I have been listing are 1% accurate. There is more to this story that you are simply not willing to even entertain. Thats fine, we have all heard you clearly state your position, but what we dont need is to be bullied or otherwise intimidated and ridiculed for thinking drastically different then you. Whos right? Probably nobody and/or it may be (as I stated before) a combination of unfortunate events.
Side note: You know Nigel, having a rav4 not be killed via an explosion of a fireball does not diminish your theory, it only makes it more basic and simple. You shouldn't have to construct a way in which said BL kills absolutely all of them. You should be willing to accept some or all died as a result of other means other then BL, while at the same time tow the line for the BL being the root cause of the situation i.e. forced away from tent. The 2Yuris being burned by the fire and not BL, same deal.
Like others, I am not married to any particlular theory, so I have no dog in the fight. I only wish you would accept other possibilities and how they may play a roll in how they died. If a BL scared them off the ridge, and then several other circumstances ultimately contribute to their passing.... whats wrong with that? Why does this 'have' to be ALL BL or nothing for you? Help me to understand this reasoning.
Nigel Evans
23-09-2017 21:36 (GMT)
@KMM - no i'm just claiming to have a theory that fits the facts.
KMM
23-09-2017 20:58 (GMT)
Nigel Evans 23-09-2017 20:49 (GMT) @KMM - "I guess he forgot to redistribute himself a pair of shoes to make his journey back to the tent ? 8-)" Maybe he had big feet? As said before he could have been suffering from hypothermia and getting confused.
"as said before (many times)" said by YOU ! That DOES NOT make it true !" Yes but if you followed things better i wouldn't have to repeat myself so much and you wouldn't look foolish criticising a theory you haven't bothered to follow...
"You ever hear of huddling to sharing body heat? Common practice when 2 or more are trying to stay warm. " I think Nicolai was dead? Could have been used as a windbreak...
BUt you are the one claiming to HAVE all THE ANSWERS
Nigel Evans
23-09-2017 20:49 (GMT)
@KMM - "I guess he forgot to redistribute himself a pair of shoes to make his journey back to the tent ? 8-)" Maybe he had big feet? As said before he could have been suffering from hypothermia and getting confused.
"as said before (many times)" said by YOU ! That DOES NOT make it true !" Yes but if you followed things better i wouldn't have to repeat myself so much and you wouldn't look foolish criticising a theory you haven't bothered to follow...
"You ever hear of huddling to sharing body heat? Common practice when 2 or more are trying to stay warm. " I think Nicolai was dead? Could have been used as a windbreak...
KMM
23-09-2017 20:15 (GMT)
@KMM - as said before (many times) the rav4 were nursed by Igor (having sent Zina back to the tent with Rustem) who redistributed clothing from the dead to the living
I guess he forgot to redistribute himself a pair of shoes to make his journey back to the tent ? 8-)
KMM
23-09-2017 20:08 (GMT)
Nigel Evans 23-09-2017 19:46 (GMT) @KMM - as said before (many times) the rav4 were nursed by Igor (having sent Zina back to the tent with Rustem) who redistributed clothing from the dead to the living
"as said before (many times)" said by YOU ! That DOES NOT make it true !
KMM
23-09-2017 20:03 (GMT)
Nigel : The 3 men where found lying next to each other like man and err wife. Doubtful they died like that.
You ever hear of huddling to sharing body heat? Common practice when 2 or more are trying to stay warm.
Nigel Evans
23-09-2017 19:51 (GMT)
@Lyndasez - it's relevant to burns (possibly) and mechanical force (like a car accident).
"Isn't sulphur smell associated with BL occurrences?" Certainly with some, i doubt for all.
"She slid in a kneeling position, arms rested on ledge? Seriously, she'd have gone over if the current were strong in same position as men an carried away! " All depends how she slid. Or if she was disturbed by the digging above. The 3 men where found lying next to each other like man and err wife. Doubtful they died like that.
Nigel Evans
23-09-2017 19:46 (GMT)
@KMM - as said before (many times) the rav4 were nursed by Igor (having sent Zina back to the tent with Rustem) who redistributed clothing from the dead to the living.
KMM
23-09-2017 19:39 (GMT)
Lyndasez 23-09-2017 19:35 (GMT) @KMM, Excellent observation, however, Nigel will say SZ lingered longer than others, took off Luddys hat an coat whilst she lie beside him in a kneeling position in the ravine...!?
I'm sure he will. Maybe he needs to look at SZ's injuries
Lyndasez
23-09-2017 19:35 (GMT)
@KMM, Excellent observation, however, Nigel will say SZ lingered longer than others, took off Luddys hat an coat whilst she lie beside him in a kneeling position in the ravine...!?
Lyndasez
23-09-2017 19:29 (GMT)
@Nigel, If you posted this story as an example, it should have something to liken or compare to your narrative, Roller BL I presume. I find nothing.
[MALVERN HILLS TRAGEDY "The rolling fireball rushed into the building through the doorway and struck the stone table, which was instantly shattered into fragments. It then passed straight across the room and exited through the window, tearing out the frame and surrounding stonework. In its passage, the rampaging fireball also smashed apart many of the large stones that comprised the walls."]
Isn't sulphur smell associated with BL occurrences?
("was the spring thaw (May) and the flow of water was strong and creating an airspace above the bodies (which can be seen in the photo). So it's very likely that the rav4 were pushed along the stream a little and Luda over the rock. She slid there imo."
She slid in a kneeling position, arms rested on ledge? Seriously, she'd have gone over if the current were strong in same position as men an carried away!
KMM
23-09-2017 19:25 (GMT)
If the rav4 were injured At THE SAME TIME by an explosion, why was SZ wearing Luda's jacket and cap ?
Loose-Cannon
23-09-2017 19:10 (GMT)
"had a wound at the back of head (autopsy says post mortem) and a deformed neck (not investigated!)".
That 'was' the investigation. Lol it was concluded right there on the autopsy table. Post mortem.
Another note. The den3 with injuries during life... The injuries reflect exactly how they were found on the rocks. I do not believe the snow pushed them much if any. Just looking at LD slumped over the rock does not seem to be a natural way to 'wash' over a rock, especially with both arms up and over. Her ribs were broken on both sides in the FRONT exactly how she was found. Nikolai and SZ were found... On rocks... In the creek... laying on their right side....Both having broken bones on the right side of the body.
If there was a collapse or shift of a snow bank... It likely threw them to the ground right where they stood and the impact against the rocks caused the injuries.
Or, thats where they were murdered and or tossed. Depending on the theory you subscribe to. Either way, I believe it was the bodies being thrown/pressed against the rocks that broke the bones, and you do NOT need a fireball to shift or collapse a wall of snow. Especially 'if' they just dug a large chunk of it out for a 'den'. OR the den was staged.... We know it was 'reconstructed?'.
Nigel Evans
23-09-2017 18:48 (GMT)
@Lyndasez - "Where did this BL impact, it just spontaneously combusted, where?" Don't know, two people got burns which could be the fire of course. The theory is the rav4 (and perhaps Rustem) got an aerial blast within the ravine or the BL exploded within the snowbank that held the den.
"Ummm, she was pressed against it when found, now she was either thrown with the rest, slipped down there on her knees or fell an tried to reach others. But, anyway you slice its there's a ledge/wall there, no doubt. She and 3 others are on 2 different levels." It was the spring thaw (May) and the flow of water was strong and creating an airspace above the bodies (which can be seen in the photo). So it's very likely that the rav4 were pushed along the stream a little and Luda over the rock. She slid there imo.
Lyndasez
23-09-2017 17:00 (GMT)
Nigel, I neglected to add... "An examination of the dead bodies, and the severe injuries to Joannah, revealed that all three had suffered burns to the face, neck, and breast, and that the hair on their heads was intact on one side while burnt off on the other. The clothes of each girl were also partly destroyed."
There's no injuries like the above on the RAV4. Where did this BL impact, it just spontaneously combusted, where?
Lyndasez
23-09-2017 16:44 (GMT)
"Luda got the whole package, may she rest in peace. I think the ledge is just some theorising, they can't know that." Ummm, she was pressed against it when found, now she was either thrown with the rest, slipped down there on her knees or fell an tried to reach others. But, anyway you slice its there's a ledge/wall there, no doubt. She and 3 others are on 2 different levels.
For some reason I doubt they obtained these injuries while skiing down hill face first with a closed fist like superman.
Nigel Evans
23-09-2017 16:27 (GMT)
@Lyndasez - "I've read that novella you posted. I see 2 killed sat by in amazement, they didn't jump out windows..seems they headed for shelter and those outside froze in fear. Quite different how the hikers reacted, no?" Something forced the hikers flee in their socks and crucially STAY AWAY from the tent for some time, so different behaviour. I just posted it because LC is filling up the pages with autopsy reports. Although rollers could be relevant to the undocumented rumour (afaik) that the investigation team experienced them later on.
"If your claim is BL is respnsible for the RAV4..how did it involve Alex, he died of exposure" Fair point, but he had a wound at the back of head (autopsy says post mortem) and a deformed neck (not investigated!) so just guessing that he was unconcious and died of cold.
"and Luddy it's explained, she fell or ran into a ledge. " Based on the forensic examination of the corpse of Ms. L.A. Dubinina I think that the death of Ms. Dubinina was caused by massive haemorrhage into the right ventricle, multiple bilateral rib fractures, and internal bleeding into the thoracic cavity.
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (p. 215). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
Luda got the whole package, may she rest in peace. I think the ledge is just some theorising, they can't know that.
Lyndasez
23-09-2017 16:11 (GMT)
@LC, " The former students were there to get their level 3.... Just like SZ. They all were"
Thank you, Just saw they weren't paid for that time an wondered. Trying to figure why Dyatlov didn't file the last of his paperwork=the route map, seems they had to put it together from memory.
Nigel Evans
23-09-2017 16:10 (GMT)
@Lyndasez - I've a memory of reading that a student wasn't given permission to travel in order to fit Semyon in. Think the others were recent graduates of the Uni and still socially connected.
@Loose-Cannon - "There is never going to be anything conclusive in this case... Only probable." Agreed, but it's fun to chew over and make the case for your favourite theory, having someone to contest it with sharpens the thinking and improves the result. Since we've been arguing i've learnt a lot about the DPI and assumed facts.
"FYI... Its completely unnatural to fall with a closed fist, just like it is to lay down on a hill with your feet towards the summit." When i broke my leg skiing i was going fast enough to be flying through the air and on landing found myself skiing downhill with a broken tibia. This gives one a problem, how to stop travelling downhill on one good leg.. So i took the biggest swallow dive ever (not easy on 1.95m skis off one leg on these - https://images.evo.com/imgp/700/1446/157991/k2-seth-vicious-skis-2006.jpg .) and came to a stop after a long slide facing downhill with my arms protecting my head and clenched fists (adding a broken fibula to the list). If i had expired at that point that's how they would have found me. True i didn't and the pain of two broken ends of my tibia scraping past each other as the muscle contracted got me turned round real quick to use gravity to counter it but you get the idea. It all depends on what happens and how gravity reduces the pain
Rustem had a 1litre of internal bleeding same as Semyon. So quite plausible imo that he was further away from the ravine explosion but the shockwave tore his rib muscle et al and he collapsed and died with the same degree of internal bleeding as Semyon. So it fits he was trying to get back to the tent with Zina. The clenched fist indicating pain.
"Your lies are old but you fell them well. " I'm no lies Nige...
Lyndasez
23-09-2017 16:02 (GMT)
@Nigel, I've read that novella you posted. I see 2 killed sat by in amazement, they didn't jump out windows..seems they headed for shelter and those outside froze in fear. Quite different how the hikers reacted, no?
Loose-Cannon
23-09-2017 16:01 (GMT)
The state University is where you go to get your level certification. The former students were there to get their level 3.... Just like SZ. They all were
Lyndasez
23-09-2017 15:43 (GMT)
@Nigel, If your claim is BL is respnsible for the RAV4..how did it involve Alex, he died of exposure and Luddy it's explained, she fell or ran into a ledge. "Death is forcible." <---- what's that mean, tried to look it up couldn't find. :c{
Lyndasez
23-09-2017 15:27 (GMT)
It's mildly explained why SZ was on the trip. He needed some certificate to qualify as a hiker guide. But I didn't see why the other 3 non-students went? I miss something?
Loose-Cannon
23-09-2017 13:40 (GMT)
There is never going to be anything conclusive in this case... Only probable.
FYI... Its completely unnatural to fall with a closed fist, just like it is to lay down on a hill with your feet towards the summit.
Your lies are old but you fell them well.
Nigel Evans
23-09-2017 12:44 (GMT)
@LC - oh this fun
"Ah... ambiguous." That's the DPI for you. What's not ambiguous is that they built a fire which is somewhat at odds with the murder most foul theories. Don't see that getting mentioned much in this War and Peace of injury stuff.
"This is a jamming injury to the hand... No doubt about it." What like when you slip badly and stick your hand in a rock?
"Its a whole host of injuries that are 100% consistent with hand/hand combat. " Its a whole host of injuries that are 100% ambiguous with hand/hand combat. Nearly all the right words and spelling is correct...
"you should remember you have already had to eat crow numerous times in the past few weeks." Yes and i'm eating crow becuase I'M finding errors in stated facts which is more than you have done. But nothing to change the overall BL theory, just details.
"and I think you keep forgetting they were found NEXT TO A FIRE." Yes that's why i used the word ambiguous...
"Three more to go!" and nothing conclusive so far
Loose-Cannon
23-09-2017 12:21 (GMT)
Ah... ambiguous. Kinda like the entire BL BS.
"the second metacarpal bone is an abrasion 2 x 1.5 cm in size, brownish-colored with hemorrhages in the underlying soft tissues". NOTE: Right index finger abrasion along with some serious damage to the underlying tissue. This is... In fact what happens when you punch something, or someone... Along with swelling of the back of the hand. This is a jamming injury to the hand... No doubt about it.
Its not just one busted lip Nigel. Its a whole host of injuries that are 100% consistent with hand/hand combat. Instead of ignoring the overwhelming evidence of fighting injuries, you should remember you have already had to eat crow numerous times in the past few weeks.
They nearly ALL have these injuries consistent with fighting across the hands and face/head. Amazing how selective BL would be when nobody even knows what BL consists of. :/ I would also presume the medical examiners would know what an electrical burn looks like vs a fire burn, and I think you keep forgetting they were found NEXT TO A FIRE.
Three more to go!
@KMM. "It was forming the impression that, when the hikers, at their feet, descended down the mountain, SOMEBODY intentionally ended some of them"
Very interesting quote from Nigels role model.... Perhaps he should either listen, or realize he daddy was the entire season we are talking about it in the first place. Ivanov couldn't solve how he got up in the morning. We all know it including Nigel... He's just in a perpetual state of denial.
Nigel Evans
23-09-2017 11:18 (GMT)
@LC - "Address the injuries of Yuri-D"
As said many times now they're all ambiguous, burnt hair could be from the fire, could be from BL. The pulmonary edema could be from falling or electrocution from BL... The split lip is a combat wound but falling out of a tree could do it. There's not one individual where it is clear they they got beaten up, all ambiguous which lends the evidence to a non combat scenario imo and in Ivanov's.
Also imo it's a stretch that these tough resilient kids should both end up dead with burns and edema from falling out of a tree. Accidents do happen, but i'm finding this hard to swallow. But there was human skin/flesh on the tree and YuriK lived long enough afterwards to bite the back of his hand dealing with the pain. But i'd put my money on something other than a human accident, maybe even superhuman...
N.B. the gore could be from his brain expanding, bursting into the sinus area and running out of his nose. This is relevant to Rustems fracture if his sinuses didn't burst then the skull might crack. http://www.rjlm.ro/system/revista/15/199-202.pdf .
btw it's spelt "specific", here endeth the lesson
Loose-Cannon
23-09-2017 09:52 (GMT)
Enough of the BL story ti.e flap flap... Address the injuries of Yuri-D
"On the left leg are two pairs of knitted light brown socks, with rips in the area of ??the rear of the foot and ankle joint; woolen socks are white, with a heel trimmed, in the area of ??the forefoot on the toe, there is a burnt area of ??2 х 5 cm in dark brown color". NOTE: Burnt toe area of left sock. Unknown if the toe itself is burned.
"On the right leg, the remnants of a cotton sock with an elastic band are the same color as the one on the left. Wool white socks. On the inner surface of the panties there is a marking label with the inscription STS1313". NOTE: Thats an odd brand name for a pair of undies. :/ But I digress! .
"In the right temporo-parietal and occipital region there is a burning area of ??the ends of the hair, the hair is stained with remains of moss and needles of coniferous trees". NOTE: Ends of the hair on the right side above and behind the ear are burned.
"In the region of the back of the nose, the tip of the nose and the upper lip, there are traces of discharge of gore". NOTE: Not very spicific as to what the 'gore' actually is, but I would imagine blood is involved. Blood/snot... You get the idea.
"Upper lip swelling, in the red portion of the upper lip hemorrhage dark red measuring 1.5 x 2 cm". NOTE: Swollen upper lip thats busted... Hemorrhaging... Blood.
"In the area of ??the right cheek, soft tissues are covered with a layer of frothy gray liquid, from the mouth of the mouth there are traces of discharge of liquid of gray color". NOTE: Fairly strange.... Literally foaming out of the mouth when died. Pretty sure this is where the pulmonary edema comes from. "Pulmonary edema is a condition caused by excess fluid in the lungs. This fluid collects in the numerous air sacs in the lungs, making it difficult to breathe. In most cases, heart problems cause pulmonary edema." Fairly important information I would say.
"on the inner surface of the right shoulder in the middle third are two abrasions measuring 2 x 1.5 cm. brown color of parchment density of irregular shape, without hemorrhages in the underlying tissues. In the area of ??these abrasions two cuts of linear are made". NOTE: Minor cuts and Abrasions outer collar bone/arm region likely caused by carrying a heavy pack. Had this myself in the usmc plenty of times. Yuri was a fairly big dude and likely carried the tent, which would be the heaviest load. You can see him carrying it in this pic... For the last time. http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Krivonischenko-camera-film1-31.jpg .
"On the front surface of the right shoulder, small bruises of reddish color in the form of strips measuring 4 x 1 cm, 2.5 x 1.5 cm and 5 x 0.5 cm and minor abrasions in the lower third of the right forearm". NOTE: Right shoulder same as above, and and minor abrasions of the forearm.
"In the area of ??the rear of the right hand, soft tissue swelling and minor abrasions. At the rear of the hand". NOTE: Back of the right hand is swollen with abrasions.
"the second metacarpal bone is an abrasion 2 x 1.5 cm in size, brownish-colored with hemorrhages in the underlying soft tissues". NOTE: Right index finger abrasion along with some serious damage to the underlying tissue. This is... In fact what happens when you punch something, or someone... Along with swelling of the back of the hand. This is a jamming injury to the hand... No doubt about it.
"On the lateral surfaces of the left elbow joint, small abrasions of a burgundy color of parchment density and abrasions of the same color 2 x 3 cm in size with traces of slip in the form of bands parallel to each other". NOTE: Abrasion of the elbow.. could be from anything.
"On the inner surface of the left forearm on the border of the middle third and the lower third, the cutaneous wound of an irregular oval shape measuring 0.6 x 0.5 cm, its edges slightly pinched and covered with gore, under the wound marks of gore. A cut was made in the region of this wound, where a hemorrhage in the underlying soft tissues was detected". NOTE: cutaneous..... 'of the skin'. Deep nasty pusy wound with underlying bleeding with a raised outer rim... Like a volcano crater rim.
"Soft tissue in the area of ??the rear of the left hand is slightly swollen reddish-colored. End phalanx of fingers of hands dark-blue color". NOTE: Swollen back of left hand, and the ending segments of the fingers have early signs of frostbite. Bet ya 100 rubles he is right handed.
"Soft tissues in the area of ??the terminal phalanges of the toes of the foot are dark-colored". NOTE: Ends of all toes showing signs of frostbite.
"The aperture of the anus and the urethra are clean". NOTE: Yeah... Too much information!!!
Ok... Yuri-D wasn't in 'that' bad of shape. He had a few easily explainable bumps and scrapes, but he obviously punched the living shit out of 'something' or 'someone', and received a nice busted lip.
The real interesting ones are yet to come
Nigel Evans
23-09-2017 08:05 (GMT)
@KMM A STRANGE TRAGEDY ON THE MALVERN HILLS
If the GLO ‘Fireball’ might be compared to an aerial bomb, artillery shell, or depth-charge, and the ‘Apparition’ to a floating mine, then the ‘Roller’ is perhaps best described as the ‘battle tank’ of these phenomenal invaders. The following case, surely one of the weirdest and most chilling events of a phenomenal nature ever recorded, certainly bears out the latter analogy.
On a fine day at the height of the English summer, the three daughters and the eldest son of Joseph Hill, a wealthy resident of Lindridge, an attractive village in the valley of the River Teme, Worcestershire, set out for a walk over the nearby Malvern Hills. They were accompanied by several young ladies, staying as guests of the family, and a manservant bearing their provisions in a small handcart. Around 15:00, the party reached the Worcestershire Beacon, at 425 meters above sea level the highest point in the range, and upon which there was a solitary building that had been erected on the orders of a Lady Harcourt. The robust structure, designed as a storm shelter and intended for the use of people walking on the hills, was built of stone and covered with a roof of iron plates. It consisted of a single room with a stone table in the centre and seats on each side; it had two apertures: a doorway and a window sited opposite the door. Shortly after their arrival the sky took on an ominous appearance, and soon a great and furious electric storm advanced upon the hill. Brilliant discharges of lightning flashed from the skies almost incessantly, producing a succession of thunderclaps, the violence of which was so great as to make the ground itself shudder. Quite understandably the young people became fearful of being in the open at the mercy of the elements, and the entire party, with the exception of the servant, abandoned their picnic and fled into the shelter. No doubt feeling reasonably secure once they were within its sturdy walls, Eliza and Joannah Hill, and a friend, Ellen Woodyatt of Hereford, seated themselves at the table, while the rest stood and waited for the storm to pass. What none could have been aware of was the approach of a menacing phenomenon with all the energetic potential of the deadliest lightning bolt ever hurled into the earth, and yet so lethally different from an ordinary electrical discharge that it rendered those within as vulnerable as the poor servant left outside to face the tempest. After a while, Margaret Hill, aged about 15, who had been extremely upset by the storm, went to the door hoping to see some sign that the disturbance was moving away. Deliverance, however, was certainly not at hand instead she saw the remorseless approach of a thing unearthly and absolutely terrifying: a huge ball of ‘electric fire’ was rolling at high velocity along the surface of the hill, and directly towards the entrance of the party’s retreat! So rapid was the advance of this dreadful object that no sooner had the poor girl recovered from her initial shock, and before she could alert those within, it was upon her and she was hurled violently to the ground. Quite remarkably, though her shoes, and part of her dress, were burned, Margaret survived. Her brother, who had been standing nearby, was injured in much the same manner. Some other members of the party, however, were tragically and quite horribly less fortunate. The rolling fireball rushed into the building through the doorway and struck the stone table, which was instantly shattered into fragments. It then passed straight across the room and exited through the window, tearing out the frame and surrounding stonework. In its passage, the rampaging fireball also smashed apart many of the large stones that comprised the walls. Of the three young women seated around the table, two, Eliza and Ellen, were killed on the spot, and Joannah was left apparently more dead than alive. The horror of the scene left the manservant, who alone had suffered no physical injury, almost deranged. When he looked into the shelter, it must have seemed like a massacre, for all the young persons had been affected; most had been struck down and lay dead or injured on the ground. He began to scream with hysteria, his pitiful cries alerting a labourer working nearby. This man rendered whatever assistance he could before seeking help. Eventually a physician reached the scene, examined the badly injured Joannah and, having discovered that vital signs were still present, proceeded to open a vein and relieve the victim of a quantity of blood - still a standard procedure in 1826. She was then taken to Great Malvern and lodged in the Unicorn Inn where she remained, possibly conscious but certainly unable to speak. Doctors were pessimistic as to her chances of recovery (optimism being somewhat unfashionable in the medical circles of those days). An examination of the dead bodies, and the severe injuries to Joannah, revealed that all three had suffered burns to the face, neck, and breast, and that the hair on their heads was intact on one side while burnt off on the other. The clothes of each girl were also partly destroyed. A coroner’s inquest on the deceased would have been held within a few days, but, to the best of my knowledge, no further details were printed in subsequent issues of the two London newspapers* from which I have compiled this account. According to a paper in the Transactions of the Worcestershire Archaeological Society for 1957, an entry in the diary of Charles Dunne (1783-1850), rector of the manor of Earl’s Croome, refers to three women having died in the tragedy, while a footnote states that the victims were a party of seven, and that all three of the Hill girls were killed along with Miss Woodyat. The true number of fatal victims could be traced through burial records, and it is probable that at least one of the victims is interred in the churchyard at Lindridge where some form of memorial should be extant. The fate of poor Joanna is no doubt described in an article, or announcement in a local newspaper which should eventually be located. The nature of this terrible rolling fireball, if examined in terms of conventional atmospheric physics is totally inexplicable: An ‘ordinary’ discharge of lightning would have immediately gone to earth in or close to its point of contact in a fraction of a second, but this fearsome peripatetic manifestation was sustained, coherent in form, and evidently under control. The destruction of the stone table was an example of the awesome power of the GLO Roller, while its effects on the three victims seated around the table, demonstrates the complex nature of what was clearly a violent, yet curiously selective outpouring of energy. The dramatic fracturing of this rather formidable item of furniture would have actually been caused by heat, generated when electrical energy from the fireball penetrated this poor conductor and obstacle to its progress. Energetic discharges, projected out like tentacles, had much the same effect on the wall stones they contacted, and also removed the window and its surround in a violent but mechanical fashion. Contact with human tissue and clothing evidently brought about an almost instantaneous change of amperage and frequency in these electric and electromagnetic projections, a factor that prevented the victims’ bodies from superheating and exploding into fragments. Whatever the nature of the mechanism housed within the envelope of the GLO, it clearly operated at a phenomenal speed and seems to have endowed the object with a crude sense of purpose. * The Times, 07.07.1826, p3f; The Age v2, p482, 09.07.1826
Lev Ivanov, who conducted the subsequent investigation and closed the case, stated, "In May, together with EP Maslennikov, we inspected the vicinity of the scene of the incident (in the area of ??the ravine and cedar), noting that some of the new spruce at the edge of the forest have burn marks, but such traces did not have a concentric shape or any other shape system, nor did they have an epicenter. This confirms that some kind of heat ray or strong energy, but completely unknown (at least for us), has been directed, acting selectively: the snow has not been melted, the trees have not been damaged. It was forming the impression that, when the hikers, at their feet, descended down the mountain, somebody intentionally ended some of them
re my post that perm-36 us outside "Moscow" -- my bad -- it is near the old city of "Molotov" -- much closer to the hikers.
Loose-Cannon
23-09-2017 03:53 (GMT)
#1 Am I to believe the Russian gov is going to prosecute themselves? #2 Its says right there in the quote 'political AND CRIMINAL' #3 Am I to believe everything Russia says or does? #4 Your stupid list shows when administrators began their term. #5Your entire rant is irrelevant because an escaped prisoner in 1950 can still be evading the authorities in 1959. If they were to stop building cars today, would that mean all existing cars prior are non existent? God have mercy this is stupid!
John Wolfe
23-09-2017 03:42 (GMT)
re: Lyndasez 09-22-2017 23:55 (GMT)
my typo you cited as if I thought Khrushchev closed the gulags BEFORE HE WAS BORN -- not worth anything more than an "oops" -- I have bad eyesighrt and didn't see the typo. -- should read 1956, and not 1856.
John Wolfe
23-09-2017 03:34 (GMT)
re: Loose-Cannon 09-22-2017 23:55 (GMT) --- The Gulag institution was closed by the MVD order No 020 of January 25, 1960 but forced labor colonies for political and criminal prisoners continued to exist. Political prisoners continued to be kept in one of the most famous camps Perm-36 until 1987 when it was closed."
-- um ... you could claim political prisoners are everywhere, even in the USA.
--- also --- Perm-36 is outside Moscow and is over 1,000 miles from where the hikers were.
--- from the wiki site you posted --- note the last date (April 4, 1956) for administration of the gulags --- anything after that date was illegal and subject to immediate shut-down.
Gulag administrators
Name
Years[78][79][80]
Feodor (Teodors) Ivanovich Eihmans April 25, 1930 – June 16, 1930 Lazar Iosifovich Kogan June 16, 1930 – June 9, 1932 Matvei Davidovich Berman June 9, 1932 – August 16, 1937 Israel Israelevich Pliner August 16, 1937 – November 16, 1938 Gleb Vasilievich Filaretov November 16, 1938 – February 18, 1939 Vasili Vasilievich Chernyshev February 18, 1939 – February 26, 1941 Victor Grigorievich Nasedkin February 26, 1941 – September 2, 1947 Georgiy Prokopievich Dobrynin September 2, 1947 – January 31, 1951 Ivan Ilyich Dolgich January 31, 1951 – October 5, 1954 Sergei Yegorovich Yegorov October 5, 1954 – April 4, 1956
Loose-Cannon
23-09-2017 01:36 (GMT)
Oops... He had a big ole busted lip, so someone hat a good clean shot on him at some point. (Thumbs up)
Loose-Cannon
23-09-2017 01:30 (GMT)
Ok DP fans... I'm calling this series of autopsy reviews.. "THINGS THE BL GESTAPO DOES NOT WANT YOU TO KNOW".
"On the left leg are two pairs of knitted light brown socks, with rips in the area of ??the rear of the foot and ankle joint; woolen socks are white, with a heel trimmed, in the area of ??the forefoot on the toe, there is a burnt area of ??2 х 5 cm in dark brown color". NOTE: Burnt toe area of left sock. Unknown if the toe itself is burned.
"On the right leg, the remnants of a cotton sock with an elastic band are the same color as the one on the left. Wool white socks. On the inner surface of the panties there is a marking label with the inscription STS1313". NOTE: Thats an odd brand name for a pair of undies. :/ But I digress! .
"In the right temporo-parietal and occipital region there is a burning area of ??the ends of the hair, the hair is stained with remains of moss and needles of coniferous trees". NOTE: Ends of the hair on the right side above and behind the ear are burned.
"In the region of the back of the nose, the tip of the nose and the upper lip, there are traces of discharge of gore". NOTE: Not very spicific as to what the 'gore' actually is, but I would imagine blood is involved. Blood/snot... You get the idea.
"Upper lip swelling, in the red portion of the upper lip hemorrhage dark red measuring 1.5 x 2 cm". NOTE: Swollen upper lip thats busted... Hemorrhaging... Blood.
"In the area of ??the right cheek, soft tissues are covered with a layer of frothy gray liquid, from the mouth of the mouth there are traces of discharge of liquid of gray color". NOTE: Fairly strange.... Literally foaming out of the mouth when died. Pretty sure this is where the pulmonary edema comes from. "Pulmonary edema is a condition caused by excess fluid in the lungs. This fluid collects in the numerous air sacs in the lungs, making it difficult to breathe. In most cases, heart problems cause pulmonary edema." Fairly important information I would say.
"on the inner surface of the right shoulder in the middle third are two abrasions measuring 2 x 1.5 cm. brown color of parchment density of irregular shape, without hemorrhages in the underlying tissues. In the area of ??these abrasions two cuts of linear are made". NOTE: Minor cuts and Abrasions outer collar bone/arm region likely caused by carrying a heavy pack. Had this myself in the usmc plenty of times. Yuri was a fairly big dude and likely carried the tent, which would be the heaviest load. You can see him carrying it in this pic... For the last time. http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Krivonischenko-camera-film1-31.jpg .
"On the front surface of the right shoulder, small bruises of reddish color in the form of strips measuring 4 x 1 cm, 2.5 x 1.5 cm and 5 x 0.5 cm and minor abrasions in the lower third of the right forearm". NOTE: Right shoulder same as above, and and minor abrasions of the forearm.
"In the area of ??the rear of the right hand, soft tissue swelling and minor abrasions. At the rear of the hand". NOTE: Back of the right hand is swollen with abrasions.
"the second metacarpal bone is an abrasion 2 x 1.5 cm in size, brownish-colored with hemorrhages in the underlying soft tissues". NOTE: Right index finger abrasion along with some serious damage to the underlying tissue. This is... In fact what happens when you punch something, or someone... Along with swelling of the back of the hand. This is a jamming injury to the hand... No doubt about it.
"On the lateral surfaces of the left elbow joint, small abrasions of a burgundy color of parchment density and abrasions of the same color 2 x 3 cm in size with traces of slip in the form of bands parallel to each other". NOTE: Abrasion of the elbow.. could be from anything.
"On the inner surface of the left forearm on the border of the middle third and the lower third, the cutaneous wound of an irregular oval shape measuring 0.6 x 0.5 cm, its edges slightly pinched and covered with gore, under the wound marks of gore. A cut was made in the region of this wound, where a hemorrhage in the underlying soft tissues was detected". NOTE: cutaneous..... 'of the skin'. Deep nasty pusy wound with underlying bleeding with a raised outer rim... Like a volcano crater rim.
"Soft tissue in the area of ??the rear of the left hand is slightly swollen reddish-colored. End phalanx of fingers of hands dark-blue color". NOTE: Swollen back of left hand, and the ending segments of the fingers have early signs of frostbite. Bet ya 100 rubles he is right handed.
"Soft tissues in the area of ??the terminal phalanges of the toes of the foot are dark-colored". NOTE: Ends of all toes showing signs of frostbite.
"The aperture of the anus and the urethra are clean". NOTE: Yeah... Too much information!!!
Ok... Yuri-D wasn't in 'that' bad of shape. He had a few easily explainable bumps and scrapes, but he obviously punched the living shit out of 'something' or 'someone'. No real issues of any kind to the face etc, so I imagine? he was a giver and not a taker.
The real interesting ones are yet to come.
Lyndasez
22-09-2017 23:55 (GMT)
@Nigel, Well, if the force is "superhuman," it ain't BL! ;cP
To give you your due. After having read some of the witness accounts on hibinaud, I can now see the connection to your BL obsession... One witness said they saw a circular cloud that grew in size so much so, he thought planets were colliding. Or could one of these .... http://news.sky.com/story/meteor-team-of-20000-sent-to-ural-mountains-10454500
@John Wolfe, Being a fan of reality myself an FYI, Khrushchev was born in 1894.
Loose-Cannon
22-09-2017 23:55 (GMT)
Is this what happens when a BL melts your brain and you later find it in your adult diaper?
"The Gulag institution was closed by the MVD order No 020 of January 25, 1960 but forced labor colonies for political and criminal prisoners continued to exist. Political prisoners continued to be kept in one of the most famous camps Perm-36 until 1987 when it was closed."
John Wolfe
22-09-2017 23:12 (GMT)
re: John Wolfe 09-22-2017 22:57 (GMT) --- sorry to all who were fans of the escaped Gulag prisoners "theory" -- my omission of them was because (as any fan of reality should know) Stalin died in 1953 and Nikita Sergeyevich Khrushchev closed all the Gulags down by 1856 -- so .... get a grip ! ..... there's no way freed political prisoners killed nine hikers, who were highly valuable students of the sciences from UPI, just for the heck of it -- let alone the idea of ... what were they doing there in the first place ?
John Wolfe
22-09-2017 22:57 (GMT)
re: John Wolfe 09-22-2017 21:41 (GMT)
I forgot to add to the comment (see below this) ..... according to the trolls ...... all this was covered up by the Soviet Government because they found out it was carried out by their own KGB in an effort to hide secret weapons testing which leaves no evidence (other than strange injuries) and was designed to confuse the American CIA agent who just happened to be in the area to pick up a sample of "radioactive" material from a defector --- thus, this assassination of the nine counter-revolutionary hikers was assigned to the Mansi (modern, and quite friendly, Siberian hunter-gatherers / tribesmen / they're also good drinkers) who hired Yeti (abomdidibaomdidibomadbale snow-men) who don't actually exist but existed long enough to hand it off to space aliens -- WHO USED BALL LIGHTNING TO ATTACK THE HIKERS ! (and thus thoroughly confuse this writer) -- the very same space aliens, who, I might add, are sick to death of internet trolls. (I know, I know, I know ....... the internet wasn't conceived until the mid-1960's, and utilizing software developed in the 1970's, was privately implemented in the late 1980's and made public in the early 1990's ....... but the space aliens have a time machine !)
Hey look! I've got to go off to my star-system for a while -- I'll write some more a few days ago ... when I have some more .......time
John Wolfe
22-09-2017 21:41 (GMT)
re: Loose-Cannon 09-21-2017 18:17 (GMT) comment to Nigel and friends -- " Don't be scared. Hey, while I'm at it... You ever think of getting together with your fellow BL theorist (particularly 8 others) and take a few weeks to explore the DP area in winter? I think you should... The BL gods are calling you."
-- this is actually a good idea -- I will be suggesting this to the Ural State Technical University this winter -- and yes, it is a frightening idea -- ball lightning, that is -- though some trolls prefer to fear invisible attackers who don't leave footprints anywhere in the area, who have no motivation to torture and kill nine hikers, who wield superhuman strength and produce air-burst like injuries designed to fool .......... fools.
Nigel Evans
22-09-2017 21:12 (GMT)
@LC - the injuries are consistent with several situations some involving fighting, some do not. The problem is that the injuries are ambiguous. This argues strongly imo that they're not from fighting. If fighting had occured surely there would be injuries that were clearly human inflicted? Maybe this was Ivanov's view based on his experience as a policeman...
Loose-Cannon
22-09-2017 20:43 (GMT)
Im stating, that I believe most of the victims exhibit injuries consistent with fighting. This evidence is not easily explained as to who, and why etc. Im stating it simply exists, and cannot be overlooked regardless as to the theory one subscribes to. I was completely neutral in my post about on Yuri. I even gave the benefit of doubt he was climbing the cedar and several of his injuries could very well be related to the act of climbing said cedar, frostbite, and burns.
5 nights of autopsy reports.... Post 2 coming up in just a few hrs.
Nigel Evans
22-09-2017 18:27 (GMT)
@LC - so you are saying that they were beaten badly before being left to die of cold yes?
Sandy
22-09-2017 18:24 (GMT)
Wow - I was going to print the autopsies off myself & came here to do it & see I was beat to it.
Loose-Cannon
22-09-2017 17:58 (GMT)
No Nigel... Apparently YOU need to go read the post. AT NO POINT IN TIME DID I STATE THEIR INJURIES KILLED THEM. HERE.... READ..
YURI DOROSHENKO
2. ear, nose and lips are covered with blood <<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT 3. swollen upper lip with dark red hemorrhage <<<<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT 4. right cheek soft tissue covered with gray foam; gray liquid coming form his open mouth. Most apparent cause is pulmonary edema. (Pulmonary Edema.... Fluid in lungs... Common when starved of oxygen) <<<<<<< CHOKED THE FRICK OUT 7. right armpit has a bruise 2x1.5 cm <<<<<<<< FIGHTING 8. brown-red bruises with size 4x1 cm, 2.5x1.5 cm, 5x5 cm in the upper third of right forearm <<<<<<< FIGHTING 9. swelling and small abrasions in the rear of the right hand soft tissue <<<<<<< KICKING SOMEONES ASS 10. bruise with bleeding into the underlying soft tissue on the back of the right hand corresponding to the second metacarpal bone <<<< KICKING SOMEONES ASS 14. on the inner surface of the left forearm there is a surface skin wound covered with dried blood <<<<<<<<< BLOCKING/FIGHTING 15. similar bruises in pale red color on the shins of both legs <<<<<<< FIGHTING GROUND WRESTLE
YURI KRIVONISCHENKO
1. bruises on the forehead 0.3x1.8 cm <<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT 2. diffuse bleeding in the right temporal and occipital region due to damage to temporalis muscle <<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT 3. bruise around left temporal bone <<<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT 7. back of the right hand is swollen, fingers are brownish-purple <<<<<<< KICKING THAT ASS 14. dark red abrasions on left wrist, back of the left hand is swollen <<<<<<<<< KICKING THAT ASS 16.three linear skin lesions with straight edges, sharp corners and depth up to 0.3 cm on the inner side of the upper third of the left thigh <<< FIGHTING, POSSIBLE TREE CLIMBING 17. three cutaneous wounds with sharp corners on the inner side of the upper third of the left hip <<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT 18. dark brown abrasion on the front of the right femur and tibia <<<<< FIGHTING OR BIG FALL 19. dark brown-red abrasions on the front-inner left thigh <<<<<<< FIGHTING OR BIG FALL
IGOR DYATLOV
1. minor abrasions on the forehead <<<<<< FIGHTING BEAT UP 2. minor abrasions on the upper eyelids <<<<<<< FIGHTING BEAT UP 3. brown-red abrasions above the left eyebrow <<<<<<<< FIGHTING BEAT UP 4. minor abrasions on the left cheek <<<<<<<< FIGHTING BEAT UP 5. brown-red abrasions on both cheeks <<<<<<<< FIGHTING BEAT UP 6. dried blood on lips <<<<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT 8. bruised knees without bleeding into the UNDERLYING tissues <<<<<< FIGHTING WRESTLING 9. both ankles had brownish red abrasions, size 1x0.5 cm and 3x2.5 cm with hemorrhage into the 10. underlying tissue <<<<<< FIGHTING POSSIBLE DRAGGING 10. single incision 4x2 cm in the lower third of the right tibia <<<<<< FIGHTING CUT WOUND 11. many small scratches of dark red color on the lower third of the right forearm and palm surface <<<<<<< FIGHTING 13. metacarpophalangeal joints on the right hand had brown red bruises. This is common injury in hand to hand fights. To get a better idea of the injuries just make a fist. This is the part of the hand which you use to hit someone. <<<<<< FIGHTING!!!!!! 14. left hand is brown-purple color with brownish-red bruises <<<< FIGHTING 15. superficial wounds on the 2nd and 5th finger on the left hand <<<<<<< FIGHTING 16. skin wound in the palmar surface of the 2nd 5th finger of left hand <<<<<<< FIGHTING
ZINAIDA KOLMOGOROVA
1. dark red abrasion on the right frontal eminence <<<<< BEAT TO SHIT 2. pale gray area 3x2 cm above the right eyebrow <<<<< STRANGE 3. dark red abrasion on the upper eyelids <<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT 4. brown red graze on the bridge and tip of the nose <<<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT 5. numerous abrasions on the left cheekbone <<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT 6. bruised skin on the right side of the face <<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT 7. brown-red abrasion on the back of both hands in the area of metacarpal phalangeal and inter-phalangeal joints <<<<<< KICKING THAT ASS 8. wound with jagged edges and missing skin on the back of the right hand at the base of the third finger <<<<<<< KICKING THAT ASS 10. a long BRIGHT red bruise 29x6 cm in the lumbar region on the right side of the torso. The bruise looks like left from a baton <<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT..... BATON, BRIGHT RED, FRESH, NOT DAYS OLD, BIG FUGGIN STICK WACK.
RUSTEM SLOBODIN
1. hemorrhages in the temporalis muscles <<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT 2. minor brownish red abrasions on the forehead <<<<<< FIGHTING 3. two scratches are 1.5 cm long at the distance of 0.3 cm between them 4. brownish red bruise on the upper eyelid of the right eye with hemorrhage into the UNDERLYING tissues <<<< BEAT TO SHIT 5. traces of blood discharge from the nose <<<<< BEAT TO SHIT 6. SWELLING and a lot of small abrasions on both sides of the face <<<<<< GOOD GOD BEAT TO SHIT 7. bruises in the metacarpophalangeal joints on both hands. Similar bruises are common in hand to hand combat <<<< KICKING THAT ASS 8. brown cherry bruises on the medial aspect of the left arm and left palm <<<<<<< FIGHTING 9. SWOLEN lips. <<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT 10. bruises on the left tibia in dimensions at 2.5x1.5 cm (not shown on diagram) <<<<< LITERALLY KICKING.... THAT ASS 11. epidermis is torn from the right forearm (not shown on diagram) <<<<< FIGHTING, KICKING ASS 12. fracture of the frontal bone 6x0.1 cm located 1.5 cm from the sagittal suture (showing on separate skull trauma diagram without numbers) BEAT TO SHIT, BLOW TO HEAD, FIGHT OVER, CAN BE DONE WITH FIST, ROCK, LOG, BOOT, YOU PICK
AND THATS JUST THE 5 NOT ROTTED BEYOND RECOGNITION.
Nigel Evans
22-09-2017 17:48 (GMT)
@LC - "nor have I suggested their other injuries directly resulted in their deaths." LOL - Well go and reread your post - 03-09-2017 23:14 (GMT)
@Lyndasez - you've confused me again.
Lyndasez
22-09-2017 13:44 (GMT)
Nigel said: "SuperHUMAN force" --- I win!!! :c)
Lyndasez
22-09-2017 13:40 (GMT)
LC & Nigel, The info about the fall is from 2 sites, you determine.
". Doroshenko was lying on his stomach. Beneath it found a broken branch of a tree from falling into several pieces." -hibinaud
"Remains of a fire under old cedar with branches broken up to 5 m high suggesting that hikers had climbed up to look for something or to hide from someone." -this site. 16ft
Loose-Cannon
22-09-2017 13:29 (GMT)
Nigel...
Never have I claimed the 2Yuris died from falling from the cedar, nor have I suggested their other injuries directly resulted in their deaths. You have an opinion that BL spicifically targets the back of hands and the face of its victims. I am of the opinion that there very well have been a tree climbing exercise, but some of these injuries are a clear sign of possible fight, i.e 'hand/hand combat'.
We all know from their photo evidence that these injuries were not present in the days prior, and you shouldn't get them by pitching a tent in deep snow or walking down a hill.
You have your opinion and now we should hear from the rest of the board what they think.
We have several more victims to go through.....
Nigel Evans
22-09-2017 12:32 (GMT)
Something else like a superhuman force
Nigel Evans
22-09-2017 12:15 (GMT)
@LC - i think you're looking too hard at bruises/abrasions that could have already been there and too little at the question of the two deaths. The probability of them both dying in one fall is too small. Could happen but unlikely. Something else.
Loose-Cannon
22-09-2017 12:09 (GMT)
He would have had to slid up/down the trunk causing all the arm/leg abrasions... maybe cheeks. Then fell out of the top whacking a dif location of his head on every branch branch on the way down, and somehow not break any bones.
When I was 7 years old, I fell out a tree and snapped my elbow. Yeah... I was a climber.
Nigel Evans
22-09-2017 11:59 (GMT)
@LC - imo a bad fall particularly on sharp stubs of cedar branches lands on fire concussed burns leg could explain YK. What's curious here is both the Yuris seem to die early in the sequence of events. That's pushing probabilities imo. They could both be involved in the fall but both dying?
Loose-Cannon
22-09-2017 11:31 (GMT)
-" if these guys have fallen out of a tree then split lips etc are explainable. Ivanov mentions that there was a small piece of flesh hanging from the cedar, looks a really bad slide/fall."
Normally I would agree, but not with this... Way too many of said injuries to be causes by one fall.
Nigel Evans
22-09-2017 10:54 (GMT)
@LC - YuriK's finger wasn't missing? Not true.
@KMM - my theory would have it that Igor waited too long for the Zina and Rustem to return and was suffering from hypothermia = confusion. He seems to have been stopped ascending by small thicket, i.e. too confused to navigate around.
@LC - if these guys have fallen out of a tree then split lips etc are explainable. Ivanov mentions that there was a small piece of flesh hanging from the cedar, looks a really bad slide/fall.
Lyndasez
22-09-2017 03:20 (GMT)
@LC, You skipped the best part! They got bored with the violent-accident on this one, an got creative...
"The left-hand lower half pants offline until the level of the knee joint, the edge of the fabric pants in areas breakage pants misaligned with charring the fabric." . NOTE: Good to know... His left outer pant leg was missing up to the knee with a jagged charred edge.
"in an outer pocket a coil of copper wire and silk pink ribbon." . NOTE: I thought this was a bit odd, but whatever .
"On the left leg cotton sock torn, the edges of his charred." . NOTE: Charred left sock also.
"In the left temporal region there are two abrasions of a brownish-red color of parchment density, with a size of 1.2 by ?, 3 cm and 1 cm by 0.2 cm" . NOTE: Abrasions on the left temple.. welp somehow they got there! You decide.
In the middle third of the nose, a brown-red abrasion , parchment density, passing into the wound in the tip of the nose and wings with a defect of soft tissues measuring 1.8 x 2 cm. NOTE: Another abrasion. This one on the nose that goes right up to the point the tip of nose being missing. I do agree the missing tip of nose was from scavengers.
"Mucous lips of dark-cinnamon- colored parchment density, the mouth is closed, lips are swollen. Behind the lower." . NOTE: Swollen lips!! I don't think its possible for ship rats to swell up lips in extreme sub-zero temps.
"Behind the lower teeth flap epidermis pale gray color with papillary lines size of flap 1.8 to 0.6 cm." . NOTE: Cut lower lip into top two layers if skin... And size. The size is nearly 3/4 of an inch for all you non Brits. Thats one hell of a busted lip! .
"on the cheeks abrasion dark brown color parchment density" . NOTE: More abrasions to the face... More ship rat carnage? You decide .
"The auricles are swollen with a cyanotic red color" . NOTE: Red and Swollen ears!! Again... Swelling in sub temps.
"On the right side surface of the rib cage at the level of the axillary cavities abrasions of pale red color measuring 7 by 2 cm, without hemorrhages in the underlying tissues." . NOTE: More abrasions.... Right side of mid rib cage. Not so deep.
"At the rib margin of the right hypochondrium along the middle clavicle line abrasions of pale red color of parchment density of 2 x 1.2 cm size 1 x 1.2 cm, without hemorrhages in the underlying tissues." . NOTE: Another abrasion. Upper right chest inline with nipple. Not that deep
"The rear of the right hand is swollen. In the region of the metacarpophalangeal joints, soft tissues are whitish -gray in color, the fingers burolilovogo colors terminal phalanx dry dark brown color, n and rear of these fingers minor skin abrasions dark brown color parchment density. Palmar surface of the right hand bluish-red color with skin Ranko with jagged edges dark brown color at the base of the first finger. On the middle phalanx of the third (forwarded from the "average" - note). finger defect of the epidermis in shape and size coinciding with that found in the oral cavity". NOTE: Right hand swollen, blueish red color, jagged cut at base of index finger.... And a big chunk of the back of his hand missing...... Matches the chunk of skin found stuck in his own teeth.
"In the area of ??the left wrist joint, grazes of dark red color of parchment density of 5 x 2.5 cm, the rear of the left hand swelling". NOTE: Swollen left hand.
"Along the whole width of the rear - the left hand scalp wound with delaminated epidermis dark brown color parchment density measuring 8 x 2 cm". NOTE: Big damn cut roughly 3" by .75" above and behind the left ear.
"Rear fingers 2-5 left brush black color with wrinkled epidermis 5 thumb and dried up end phalanges. On the palmar surface, the soft tissues of the terminal phalanges are dried, dense. On average phalanges 4-5 fingers a skin wound of 1.5 x 1 cm and 1 x 0.5 cm of dark brown color, dense to the touch with charring". NOTE: Dried up... Frostbite.... Down to the bone in fact. Phalanges are the bones within the hand. Sounds like some burning also. Poor dude burnt his hand trying to prevent frostbite and failed.
"On the outer surface of the left buttock and the left thigh are areas of soft tissues of pink color and brown color of parchment density with a sliding epidermis on the site size 10 x 3 cm, 6 x 2 cm and 4 x 5 cm". NOTE: Basically another big ass abrasion... On the butt/thigh.
"On the antero-internal surface of the thigh abrasions of dark brown dark-red color of parchment density in size ? x 2 cm. 1 x 1.5 cm, and more small". NOTE: Same left thigh, inner abrasion... Smaller then the outer thigh/butt abrasion.
"On the inner surface of the upper third of the left thigh, three skin lesions ??? eynoy shape with smooth edges depth up to 0.3 cm. with sharp angles size of 1.5 to 04 cm. Left shin and ??? and swollen". NOTE: Strange lacerations and swelling of the upper 1/3 of the inner left thigh. Could quite possibly be from climbing a tree.... Ill give ya that one Nigel. NOTE: Big ass burn on lower shin/calf of leg... I thought it was the right, but this says left.
"On the posteromedial surface of the left lower leg abrasions dark brown color parchment density measuring 8 x 1.3 cm. ? x 1.5 cm and 2 x 1 cm". NOTE: Abrasion on the mid section of left calf
"The rear of the left foot is brown- brown in color with epidermis peeling sites measuring 10 x 4 cm. ??? The second finger is charred dark brown the color of the fabric ????? are dense to the touch". NOTE: Left heel skin peeling... More of the burn I believe. The ring-toe is charred
"On the front surface of the right thigh and lower leg, abrasions dark brown color of parchment density of 5 x 2 cm. 3 x 8 cm, 7 x 1 cm, and 2 x ? cm". NOTE: 4 Abrasions down the front of right leg.
Some of these injuries can be from climbing a tree or scuffling about in the woods etc, but the hand wounds, and swelling along with the cut lip, head, swollen lips and ears tell me he was in a scuffle with someone or something. You won't get this many external issues from one fall out a tree and he was in perfect health via photographic evidence in the days prior. He obtained all these injuries that fateful night.
KMM
22-09-2017 02:09 (GMT)
Nigel : My error, all three had fb on their fingers but none on their toes so no need for taking shoes off anyone which is how this got started
You don't need frostbite to tell you your toes are freezing (cold) !
Lyndasez
22-09-2017 01:02 (GMT)
@LC (Missing finger and blood blood blood. Sad)
Yes, I think this is one of the cedar Yuris, one climbed the tree, tried to hang on, caught a branch on the way down ripping off finger and accompanying skin to the back of his hand and tears to the legs.
@Nigel Evans @LC et al - Repeating my previous post :- (This relevant to your (and others?) frequent claims that there is obvious signs of combat. According to the above there isn't any at all, ever, and posters claiming otherwise need to see a doctor or explain why the official report is incorrect. Only the rav4 die from violence, probably superhuman but possibly not.) Yes, Nigel, I see sticks n stones caused the injuries to the tent3 an cedar2...and speeding cars and blomb blasts hit the Rav3...No mention of possible "ball lighting." So your theory is out the window!
Loose-Cannon
22-09-2017 00:07 (GMT)
Ah.... Forgot about this page! Lyndasez is gonna have a field day with this one.
@Lyndasez - fair comment, i used "Don't Go There" to quickly check and was fooled by the use of frostbite for Zina but cold and freezing for the other two.
My error, all three had fb on their fingers but none on their toes so no need for taking shoes off anyone which is how this got started.
I stand corrected .
Nigel Evans
21-09-2017 23:23 (GMT)
@Lyndasez - there are two groups, SZ/AK/NTB are recorded as violent, the rest as violent accident including RS. That's the finding. RS could have been "lucky" that he further away from the explosion that killed the rav4 so something like a chunk of snow or ice hit him on one side pushing his head against something else, maybe the ground maybe a tree. The fracture could also have been due to freezing.
Whatever, this whole combat thinking is divorced from the official reports. Officially it never happened.
Lyndasez
21-09-2017 23:15 (GMT)
Right out of the gate I see an inconsistency of Nigel's post about frostbite....
"Based on the data of the study, the corpse of Citizen DYATLOV Igor Alekseevich, 23 years old,"
" bladder, frostbite of the fingers of the extremities III and IV degree."
All 3 Zina, Rustem and Igor....
Lyndasez
21-09-2017 22:40 (GMT)
@Nigel, (which says he died of freezing and his fracture IS NOT attributed to violence.)
Agreed. He died of exposure, after something cracked up both sides the head and stunned him to a crawl....
"The death of Slobodin is violent - an accident."
Loose-Cannon
21-09-2017 22:14 (GMT)
@Lyndasez .
Same link... Look under the left column, at the top you will find the other autopsy reports... Scroll down on each one because the SECOND autopsy of the internals are there aswell.
Lyndasez
21-09-2017 21:48 (GMT)
OH this gets better n better! Thanks for the link, LC!
"The fracture of the left frontal bone found during internal investigation could occur when a citizen of Slobodin fell or a bruise of the head area about solid objects, such as stones, ice and so on. This closed trauma of the skull is caused by a blunt instrument. At the time of its appearance, it undoubtedly caused a state of short-term stunning of SLOBODIN and facilitated the fastest freezing of SLOBODINE. The absence of a pronounced cerebral hemorrhage gives reason to believe that the death of SLOBODIN occurred precisely as a result of its freezing. Body injuries found on the body of a citizen Slobodina, in the form of abrasions, scratches, and sieges are caused by a blunt instrument as a result of a fall or bruise on stones, ice and so on. Damage was caused both during life, as well as in the agonal state and posthumously. The data of the investigation of the corpse of SLOBODIN give grounds to believe that the food intake was 6-8 hours before the moment of death. The presence of alcohol during internal investigation was not detected. -2-
Taking into account the above bodily injuries, Slobodin could move and crawl in the first hours from the moment of their infliction. The death of Slobodin is violent - an accident."
Rustem couldn't move after being stunned by a blunt instrument ...but the injuries are on both sides of the head?!
Nigel Evans
21-09-2017 21:39 (GMT)
@LC et al - Repeating my previous post :- This relevant to your (and others?) frequent claims that there is obvious signs of combat. According to the above there isn't any at all, ever, and posters claiming otherwise need to see a doctor or explain why the official report is incorrect. Only the rav4 die from violence, probably superhuman but possibly not.
Nigel Evans
21-09-2017 21:35 (GMT)
@LC - which says he died of freezing and his fracture IS NOT attributed to violence.
Loose-Cannon
21-09-2017 21:20 (GMT)
No Nigel.... Lyndasez was referencing YOUR comments made after the file quote.
BTW... Never have I stated the cedar2 or tent3 died as a result of their injuries. I simply acknowledge they have them.
Lyndasez.... Here is Rustems full file... Not just what Nigel wants you to see and think that's everything.
@Lyndasez - that's the official report that we're always being told to consult by you know who
Lyndasez
21-09-2017 20:41 (GMT)
@Nigel, Really, no signs of violence, only on RAV4?!
What's this: "Fracture of the frontal bone and hemorrhages (shaded areas) in the temporalis muscles that were found on the skull of Rustem Slobodin"
"swelling and a lot of small abrasions on both sides of the face"
"bruises in the metacarpophalangeal joints on both hands. Similar bruises are common in hand to hand combat"
Nigel Evans
21-09-2017 20:27 (GMT)
@LC - this is poor stuff even for you, no signs of violence at the tent or the cedar only at the ravine.
Only the rav4 show any signs of violence according to the official report (from your link) :-
"Forensic medical examination found that Dyatlov, Doroshenko, Krivonischenko and Kolmogorov died from the action of low temperature (frozen), none of them had physical injuries, not counting minor scratches and abrasions. Slobodin had a crack in the skull 6 cm long, which had spread to 0.1 cm, but Slobodin died from cooling."
This relevant to your (and others?) frequent claims that there is obvious signs of combat. According to the above there isn't any at all, ever, and posters claiming otherwise need to see a doctor or explain why the official report is incorrect. Only the rav4 die from violence, probably superhuman but possibly not.
Lyndasez
21-09-2017 20:19 (GMT)
As I see it, Ivanov got back to home base with his report and was told to burn it along with those military leg bindings...he then threw out a handful of red herrings based on sightings of light phenomena and whatnot to obscure the obvious!
"Neither traces of the struggle nor the presence of other people were found in the tent or near it."
Into this....
"Nigel Evans 21-09-2017 18:53 (GMT) Agreed, the official report specifically states that there were no signs of violence either at the tent or the cedar."
Nothing about the cedar Nigel... Nice little lie ya had there.
Again.... Thats your Boy Ivanov and he inspected the tent for like 39 seconds. There was also a whole mountain and valley in which blows took place.
Loose-Cannon
21-09-2017 19:53 (GMT)
I think its because there were only three injured in the den... The deformed neck was post mortem.
"Based on the study of the corpse Kolevatov believe that his death came as a result of exposure to low temperature. The body injuries found on the body of Kolevatov are in the head area - defects in soft tissues, as well as "bath" skin, are posthumous changes in a corpse that was recently found before it was found in the water. Kolevatov's death is violent."
Nigel Evans
21-09-2017 19:51 (GMT)
@LC - link, see 13-09-2017 11:15 (GMT) it's in hibinaud
Lyndasez
21-09-2017 19:44 (GMT)
@LC (Link to the page source Nigel...... Link)
Oh no, Ivanovs gut reaction was murder....then this:
"You know, Slava, it seems to me that there were two impacts of the elemental forces unknown to us: first – it was a mental impact bs it kicked them out of the tent just out of the blue, and the second – the physical impact that destroyed the three who went away from the main group”. – Perhaps, Ivanov learned something that was a state secret?"
see...he said 3, he knew Luddy was trying to reach the others when she ran into a ledge.
Lyndasez
21-09-2017 19:31 (GMT)
@Loose-Cannon " the entire den hole is a fraudulent attempt to create a narrative and hide something."
For sure! But the search party didn't dig that thing, it was there...what are the odds them setting down camp in the open breeze, when there was a pre-built encampment so close...and why weren't these kids allowed binoculars or a telescope??? Distress flare?? ..a lighter??? Did they have lanterns...jeez.
Loose-Cannon
21-09-2017 19:23 (GMT)
Link to the page source Nigel...... Link
Loose-Cannon
21-09-2017 19:21 (GMT)
"Agreed, the official report specifically states that there were no signs of violence either at the tent or the cedar"
I think I read similar in one of the testimonys, was it Ivanovs statement about the tent? LINK it! But the problem for your claim of 'no violence' is that its a big mountain and a big valley... And of course the autopsys? show otherwise. Where did each blow take place... On the slop, woods, creek.... No idea.b
Nigel Evans
21-09-2017 19:20 (GMT)
@Lyndasez - no sign of human violence
Loose-Cannon
21-09-2017 19:16 (GMT)
The den depth was within one of the "interrogations" or testimonys somewhere... Thats where all the den info comes from... Different testimonys. I don't think there is a spicific document regarding the den. Much of the same with the tent. I think you may be right in that the entire den hole is a fraudulent attempt to create a narrative and hide something.
Lyndasez
21-09-2017 19:09 (GMT)
@KMM, Aha, the plot thickens! Thank you!
KMM
21-09-2017 19:05 (GMT)
Lyndasez 21-09-2017 18:50 (GMT) @KMM, Thank you for that info...I was going by a previous post of LC....
( BTW... The depth in which the staged den floor was found IS IN THE CASE FILES. How about reading it.... No?)
Yes, but nothing about the "den" ever being used.
Lyndasez
21-09-2017 19:01 (GMT)
@Nigel, (Agreed, the official report specifically states that there were no signs of violence either at the tent or the cedar.)
This seems to knock out your theory then. Being hit in the gut with a super energized ball of electricity seems a pretty violent way to go!
Nigel Evans
21-09-2017 18:53 (GMT)
@Bob - "With whom were the hikers engaged in "hand/hand combat?" No tracks were found other than their own and those of rescuers."
Agreed, the official report specifically states that there were no signs of violence either at the tent or the cedar.
KMM
21-09-2017 18:51 (GMT)
@Bob, (With whom were the hikers engaged in "hand/hand combat?" No tracks were found other than their own and those of rescuers.)
There weren't any tracks of anyone found except for a stretch down the slope from the DP group. None around the cedar, none around the tent, none around the ravine. None from DP group or anyone else
Lyndasez
21-09-2017 18:50 (GMT)
@KMM, Thank you for that info...I was going by a previous post of LC....
( BTW... The depth in which the staged den floor was found IS IN THE CASE FILES. How about reading it.... No?)
KMM
21-09-2017 18:44 (GMT)
KMM 21-09-2017 18:39 (GMT) Lyndasez : :I'm starting to think they never used the den, all staged, till I find further documentation otherwise.
You won't find any, there is none.
Lyndasez
21-09-2017 18:40 (GMT)
@Bob, (With whom were the hikers engaged in "hand/hand combat?" No tracks were found other than their own and those of rescuers.)
The tracks of barefoot hikers...the heat from the body melted snow beneath an left a footprint of ice. Anyone who had proper footwear, their prints could've been snowed over or brushed away.
KMM
21-09-2017 18:39 (GMT)
I'm starting to think they never used the den, all staged, till I find further documentation otherwise.
You won't find any, there is none.
Lyndasez
21-09-2017 18:32 (GMT)
@Nigel ( "move the injured", he's not moving them anywhere, flail chests are extremely painful, each breath really hurts. Plus he has to strip the 2yuris so it might be considered inappropriate for Zina. Rustem might have been injured by then and not much use, as walking wounded getting him back to the tent might be best. Take your point about why not build another fire. Sending Zina back would be the gentlemenly thing to do, she'd get back to her boots and warmer clothing long before him.)
I've experienced being thrown into a wedge of shale by a running stream. Yes afterwards was put on meds to breath. However in life an death situations you take the chance, moving them to safety. Manners an customs don't apply here. Strictly live or die. I'm starting to think they never used the den, all staged, till I find further documentation otherwise.
Loose-Cannon
21-09-2017 18:28 (GMT)
Aorta three times size.... methanol..... poisonous... Inhalation.... choking... Pulmonary edema.... foaming? from the mouth... horking.....
Look at the position of his arms when frozen in death. Dude looks like he was starving for air or similar.
Leaving the tent would mean a change in elevation. They could have thought it would be better in the valley, but could have actually been worse.
Bob Lichtenberger
21-09-2017 18:22 (GMT)
With whom were the hikers engaged in "hand/hand combat?" No tracks were found other than their own and those of rescuers.
Lyndasez
21-09-2017 18:20 (GMT)
Anyone have a link to the official documentation on the DEN? Can you throw me a bone here, I'm running down blind alleys looking for it, thanks.
Nigel Evans
21-09-2017 18:18 (GMT)
@KMM - "Igor wasn"t wearing shoes either. All of the rav4 would of been dead by then " The patholgist estimated that Nicolai lived for two hours but unconcious. Semyon had leather slippers maybe they didn't fit? Maybe Igor didn't need footwear because it wasn't that cold? It is one of the mysteries how Igor had no shoes or gloves but died of cold without any frostbite. Ditto Rustem, Zina had a little fb on her fingers, none on her feet.
@Lyndasez - "move the injured", he's not moving them anywhere, flail chests are extremely painful, each breath really hurts. Plus he has to strip the 2yuris so it might be considered inappropriate for Zina. Rustem might have been injured by then and not much use, as walking wounded getting him back to the tent might be best. Take your point about why not build another fire. Sending Zina back would be the gentlemenly thing to do, she'd get back to her boots and warmer clothing long before him.
KMM
21-09-2017 18:18 (GMT)
Lyndasez : Secondly, "take photos of Americans!?" No, no, first thing they'd have opened an tossed would be that camera, had they met
The pic of SZ shows a camera case. I don't believe anywhere states there was a camera found in it. I think its stated SZ had more than 1 camera
Loose-Cannon
21-09-2017 18:17 (GMT)
Nigel Evans 21-09-2017 18:00 (GMT) "@LC - don't sweat it, being an "internet investigator" is meant to be fun."
I insist... It will be fun. You'll love it.
Don't be scared. Hey, while I'm at it... You ever think of getting together with your fellow BL theorist (particularly 8 others) and take a few weeks to explore the DP area in winter? I think you should... The BL gods are calling you.
KMM
21-09-2017 18:08 (GMT)
Lyndasez 21-09-2017 17:57 (GMT) @KMM, As suggested, I've read the theory pg of this site. I see a few issues to address. Firstly, you don't hand over tainted material as is, don't think they addressed that, however it could've been housed in the lining of that old military leg binding that disappeared from evidence.
Secondly, "take photos of Americans!?" No, no, first thing they'd have opened an tossed would be that camera, had they met.
Thirdly, where'd they come from, were they part of village group, police, disguised as mansi...did the hikers run out to help a distressed comrade and we're ambushed?
Yes, that theory leaves questions also
Nigel Evans
21-09-2017 18:00 (GMT)
@LC - don't sweat it, being an "internet investigator" is meant to be fun.
Lyndasez
21-09-2017 17:57 (GMT)
@KMM, As suggested, I've read the theory pg of this site. I see a few issues to address. Firstly, you don't hand over tainted material as is, don't think they addressed that, however it could've been housed in the lining of that old military leg binding that disappeared from evidence.
Secondly, "take photos of Americans!?" No, no, first thing they'd have opened an tossed would be that camera, had they met.
Thirdly, where'd they come from, were they part of village group, police, disguised as mansi...did the hikers run out to help a distressed comrade and we're ambushed? Who knows, have to put the pieces of disinformation together and patchwork backwards.
KMM
21-09-2017 17:47 (GMT)
@LC - why didn't the returning three remove shoes from the dead? Because they weren't dead. Igor immediately sent Zina and Rustem back to the tent for more stuff whilst he stayed with the rav4. When they didn't return he set off later but was overtaken by hypothermia.
And shoes should of been given to returning 3 without waiting till rav4 died. you know, voluntarily
KMM
21-09-2017 17:23 (GMT)
Nigel Evans 21-09-2017 12:29 (GMT) @LC - why didn't the returning three remove shoes from the dead? Because they weren't dead. Igor immediately sent Zina and Rustem back to the tent for more stuff whilst he stayed with the rav4. When they didn't return he set off later but was overtaken by hypothermia.
Igor wasn"t wearing shoes either. All of the rav4 would of been dead by then
Lyndasez
21-09-2017 17:12 (GMT)
@Nigel (Because they weren't dead. Igor immediately sent Zina and Rustem back to the tent for more stuff whilst he stayed with the rav4. When they didn't return he set off later but was overtaken by hypothermia.) This is making less and less sense. Since Igor is the leader an strongest, he'd first make a roaring fire out of that staged "den seat," move the injured to dry and warm surroundings. Leave Zina to tend, he an Rustem would retrieve supplies.. Seems the only one to really tend would be SZ. Luddy was trying to join the 3 guys when she expired, AK I think had the snapped neck, and the coroner said, I believe SZ could've lasted up to an hour....all these guys with pencil an paper yet nothing recorded...yep no cover up here?!!!
Loose-Cannon
21-09-2017 16:19 (GMT)
I can see Im going to have to make an extremely long post breaking down some of these autopsies since you consistently ignore things at will. Then, it will be there for easy copy/paste for the following 90 times you decide to downplay the severity if the injuries obtained while living. See you on Sunday... Im out of town for work again and didn't bring the tablet.
It also amazes me you still refuse the fact humans CAN inflict the types of injuries of the rav4.
Nigel Evans
21-09-2017 15:39 (GMT)
@LC - "Nobody knows.... Not even Nigel " Very true, we have to rely on eye witness accounts :- Meanwhile, the main group found dead Slobodina about 1000 m from the tent, was clothed in a ski suit, cap, socks and one boots. His head was sent to the tent, ... On hand were abrasions and skin incisions received during falls or breaking branches.
Not fighting...
Nigel Evans
21-09-2017 15:17 (GMT)
Shoes, could be KMM - 21-09-2017 03:37 (GMT)
Loose-Cannon
21-09-2017 14:45 (GMT)
You lost me on the shoes man... Who, what, when, where?
Igors position. #1 I never claimed ALL three died traveling down slope, nor did I state NONE of them. #2 The saplings are small.... The type of stuff you walk right through or next to. And who is to say while laying down it wasn't chosen as 'some' blockage from wind. Tiny saplings are not a deal breaker on the downslope possibility.
Nobody knows.... Not even Nigel
Nigel Evans
21-09-2017 13:54 (GMT)
Last post wrt Igor.
Nigel Evans
21-09-2017 12:45 (GMT)
Atmanaki: The impression was that he tried to go up [the slope], judging by the way his body was situated; and next to his head was a cluster of small saplings in which he was probably stuck. But if he had been heading down, then he would have had to go around them to get into the position where his body was discovered.
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (pp. 58-59). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
Nigel Evans
21-09-2017 12:29 (GMT)
@LC - why didn't the returning three remove shoes from the dead? Because they weren't dead. Igor immediately sent Zina and Rustem back to the tent for more stuff whilst he stayed with the rav4. When they didn't return he set off later but was overtaken by hypothermia.
Nigel Evans
21-09-2017 12:22 (GMT)
Atmanaki: On completely open, flat snow, swept by wind and snow, Akselrod’s dog became interested in something. We dug a little, and under ten centimeters of snow we found an elbow. The general location of the body was beneath 50cm of snow. The head was pointing in the direction of the tent, and the whole position was typical for a person trying to walk or crawl uphill. The team recognized Kolmogorova. Prosecutor Tempalov states: There are no trees for seventy meters. The body lies, like the previous bodies, face to the ground on its right side. The arms are bent under the body. Both legs are half bent, and the right is tucked up into her stomach. This gives the impression she was climbing. Her face is covered in blood. In the small of her back there’s blood. It can be conjectured that she didn’t try to crawl forward, but was trying to maintain her position. There appeared to be no injuries on her body with the exception of some grazes on her face. She probably got these from falling down on the stony ridges.
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (pp. 59-60). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
Nigel Evans
21-09-2017 12:21 (GMT)
@LC - "Except of course the laundry list of hand/hand combat injuries. :/"
But only on Rustem, Zina and Igor? No one else. Imo some of it is a candidate for predation.
Nigel Evans
21-09-2017 12:10 (GMT)
@LC/@KMM - the cause of ball lightning and other light phenomena is unknown. The microwave cavity hypothesis is one of several attempts by top physicists to explain it. But it is for the science of the future to determine it's true cause. In seeking to explain the DPI i elect to use this hypothesis.
Anna Yordanova
21-09-2017 11:27 (GMT)
About the so called "hot spot" and crunchy ice. when snow is compressed by people moving across it can be compacted to a depth of 20 -30 centimeters this compacted snow forms an icy crust that is quite resistant to degradation as long as the temperatures remain well below zero
Loose-Cannon
21-09-2017 09:41 (GMT)
"no evidence exists to suggest that the hikers were attacked & murdered by those loggers or anyone else."
Except f course the laundry list of hand/hand combat injuries. :/
And because the corpses of the three individuals found on the slope were positioned with their heads uphill, it's pretty safe to conclude that they were, indeed, attempting to return to the tent.
Bob Lichtenberger
21-09-2017 06:26 (GMT)
Loose-Cannon: no evidence exists to suggest that the hikers were attacked & murdered by those loggers or anyone else.
Loose-Cannon
21-09-2017 04:38 (GMT)
Another thing of interest.
The last people to see the group alive were the loggers. These people imo in the pictures just seem.... 'off'. Like Deliverance, but 1959 Russia. 8^o The body language and facial looks of these Russian hillbillies give me the creeps! Especially the red headed bearded leader with the Manson 1000yard stare. God only knows what kinda shenanigans these weirdos were up to isolated in the backwoods. Was the group followed by the logger creeps? Did they supply them with anything? Where did the bags and bags of biscuits come from? The flask of alcohol.... thinned with methanol? Literal wood alcohol? People die in their own vomit all the time from that crap. Just food for thought.
KMM
21-09-2017 03:37 (GMT)
Loose-Cannon 21-09-2017 03:22 (GMT) Another thing.
Many seem to assume that Rustem, Igor, and Zina were headed BACK to the tent simply because what... Their heads were towards the tent when found? I call BS.
I've always wondered about which direction they were actually going also. If they were going back to the tent to get equipment to help all, somebody would of said, " here wear my shoes"
Loose-Cannon
21-09-2017 03:31 (GMT)
Also.
Rustems hat was just a little pulled back. If I were about to take my last breath and die of numbing hypothermia with my face buried in deep snow, the last thing I would be worried about is fixing my cover. He could have been squirming around face down or literally nose dived for all we know. To say his hat is somehow contradictory to a murder theory is absurd.
Loose-Cannon
21-09-2017 03:22 (GMT)
Another thing.
Many seem to assume that Rustem, Igor, and Zina were headed BACK to the tent simply because what... Their heads were towards the tent when found? I call BS.
If you are walking down a decent grade slope of a mountain and for one reason or another collapsed in pain, discomfort, exhaustion etc, you wouldn't sit or especially lay with your feet uphill. Its unnatural and uncomfortable to say the least. Its one of things you would naturally do without even thinking about it. You would go down on your butt, eventually lay back, and possibly roll over.
Point being.... NOBODY knows if they expired headed to, or away from the tent. Fact of the day.
KMM
21-09-2017 03:12 (GMT)
As I see it, if you are going with BL theory, you have to have some tangible facts or witnesses to support it. Otherwise you can take about any and all unexplained disappearances/deaths and holler BALL LIGHNING
KMM
21-09-2017 03:02 (GMT)
Loose-Cannon 21-09-2017 02:13 (GMT)
Yeah, the cuts, tears, whatever in the tent, and how and when they happened leads to more questions than answers
Loose-Cannon
21-09-2017 02:13 (GMT)
KMM...
I think your exactly right. When it comes right down to brass tacks, the BL theory doesn't hold any more water then any other theory. :/ Heck, the cuts in the tent (to me) look exactly like hatchet/axe cuts, and curved shovel cuts. Its really not hard to imagine a flap pealed back making the inside of the canvas now facing outward. You would have one heck of a challenge attempting to cut a semicircle in thick canvas yet alone do it several times unintentionally. :/
The official case files state a flap was pealed back on the windward side.... Thats it! The rest was done when Ivanov ordered them to dig it and its contents out with an axe and shovel, then drag the darn thing over rocks and ice to the helicopter pad. 8^o
hy·poth·e·sis hi?paTH?s?s/Submit noun a supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation. "professional astronomers attacked him for popularizing an unconfirmed hypothesis" synonyms: theory, theorem, thesis, conjecture, supposition, postulation, postulate, proposition, premise, assumption; More PHILOSOPHY a proposition made as a basis for reasoning, without any assumption of its truth.
Loose-Cannon
21-09-2017 00:54 (GMT)
Nigel...
You quoted ONE of several theories as to what BL is. Where is the documentation of powerful microwaves of this nature recorded directly from a real/live BL? If there isn't any... Its only one guess out of many. This is in no way shape or form 'proof' of..... Anything. You also do not have any proof of any 'hot spot'. The 'report' of crunchy ice from a reporter looking for a story. Amazing evidence, or more fake news? You know the Russians are propaganda masters right? I mean... This wouldn't be the first time a 'journalist' embellished something or flat out made up a story. Thats what they do... Always looking for an elaborate story and its common for them to make crap up as they go along.
In reality, there are wonky reports of..... Yeti, UFOs etc. How is this any different?
Don't get me wrong... Its just a huge reach. Did BL do it? Perhaps, but theory is very weak and based on nearly nothing. But possible... Like several others.
Its a 50/50 whether or not they even slashed their way out of the tent in the first place. 'If' they did, BL could be one of several reasons as to why, but it does not explain the casual walking away from it. That's really about it other then some sightings proving BL exists.
Loose-Cannon
20-09-2017 23:37 (GMT)
I just double checked the case files for 'hot spot' and any other highly unusual characteristics concerning the snow/ice. ..... Nothin. Must not have been anything? worth noting or otherwise special. Who woulda thunk it! Some city folk journalist should stay at home. Why risk a broken leg!
Lyndasez
20-09-2017 23:08 (GMT)
@ Lightning
(the strange thing is there is a circular hot spot near the tent, diameter about 4 m and it was noticed that snow down the slope was thinner (melted). So there was some sphere object that melted the snow locally and bigger microwave event that melted the snow on the slope)
Rotors of a helicopter style aircraft (circles), heat off the craft? (Melted snow?)
Nigel Evans
20-09-2017 22:44 (GMT)
@Lyndasez - "Where is this nursing station the remaining 3 erected? In the rushing water of the ravine?!" Err it wouldn't have been rushing anywhere on Feb 1st? Only later in May? Even if there was a trickle it would have almost certainly been under a layer of snow/ice. In the ravine the night cold would dominate any meagre day sun.
@Nigel, (So Semyon being a true professional is lying there knowing that it's not good for him so he tries to leave a record of what happened to complement his photographs. But he sadly for us doesn't. )
Where is this nursing station the remaining 3 erected? In the rushing water of the ravine?! What the...an SZ, after sustained bomb-blast injuries is making notes in the water to compliment his destroyed photos! That's dedication! This is turning into a Stephen King movie...wth!?
Lightning
20-09-2017 22:26 (GMT)
But the strange thing is there is a circular hot spot near the tent, diameter about 4 m and it was noticed that snow down the slope was thinner (melted). So there was some sphere object that melted the snow locally and bigger microwave event that melted the snow on the slope?
Lyndasez
20-09-2017 22:12 (GMT)
@Nigel, Ooh, the microwave thing.....remembered!
Lyndasez
20-09-2017 22:04 (GMT)
@Nigel, ( The 2 yuris display this level of fb BUT NO ONE ELSE?) "softened and whitened skin (maceration) of the fingers and feet, sign consisted with putrefaction in a wet environment"<==RAV4
Zina had frostbite, Rustem had skull fractures, Igor protected extremities better? Some dressed better than others...where you going with the frostbite thing, I forgot? Oof!
Nigel Evans
20-09-2017 21:41 (GMT)
@LC - "Too bad there isn't any anomalies recorded in the records as far as these drastically altered ice/snow patterns are concerned. :/" There was one more person present during the search, a journalist named Gennady Grygoryev. Thanks to him, we have more than the official and emotionless reports from the rescue team, and also some verbal inkling of the atmosphere: We came upon Mount 1079. The weather was calm, and the mountain was as if it was frozen in ice. The snow was compacted. There were ice-covered rock craters all around. The going was so slippery that, as I was carrying the camera and notebook, I almost broke my leg … The corpses were frozen and broken like glass.
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (p. 59). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
"What do they add to windshield washer fluid to keep it from freezing? " Methanol doesn't explain the curious frostbite profile? Glad you're onboard with drastically altered ice/snow patterns.
KMM
20-09-2017 21:26 (GMT)
Loose-Cannon 20-09-2017 21:15 (GMT) Its a wonder they were not found butt naked. Lol Too bad there isn't any anomalies recorded in the records as far as these drastically altered ice/snow patterns are concerned. :/
You know what else melts snow and ice? Quiz time.... What do they add to windshield washer fluid to keep it from freezing?
I'm going to help Nigel out here : it rhyme's with smethanol :-l
Loose-Cannon
20-09-2017 21:15 (GMT)
Its a wonder they were not found butt naked. Lol Too bad there isn't any anomalies recorded in the records as far as these drastically altered ice/snow patterns are concerned. :/
You know what else melts snow and ice? Quiz time.... What do they add to windshield washer fluid to keep it from freezing?
KMM
20-09-2017 21:10 (GMT)
Nigel Evans 20-09-2017 20:47 (GMT) @Lyndasez - yes maam. @KMM - Admin is a very pleasant lady, have you clicked on the About tab?
Been there, Done that
Nigel Evans
20-09-2017 20:59 (GMT)
@LC - not if it was just mild warming probably harmless in the short term, maybe longer term cancer etc. If it was strong enough to cook them it would have melted the snow completely as well perhaps. But raise the microwave strength a little higher and it starts interfering with the nervous system and creating nerve damage. Then people find they're getting clumsy and falling over, getting a lot of scratches and bruising. Raise it a bit more and they cannot operate their limbs properly, they just lose locomotion. Returning three?
Loose-Cannon
20-09-2017 20:48 (GMT)
What Nigel is not telling you is...
While microwaves may not heat up the air... Everything else would be. Given the fact humans are mostly water, they would have been cooked like last nights leftovers. The autopsy reports mention nothing of the sort. You would think they woul know!
Nigel Evans
20-09-2017 20:47 (GMT)
@Lyndasez - yes maam. @KMM - Admin is a very pleasant lady, have you clicked on the About tab?
KMM
20-09-2017 20:31 (GMT)
Nigel Evans 20-09-2017 20:16 (GMT) @KMM - talking to yourself now
Cant argue with you, I don't want the Admin jumping all over me ! :-)
Lyndasez
20-09-2017 20:28 (GMT)
@Nigel, (KMM - talking to yourself now )
Now, now, Nigel, I believe that was an extension of a conversation with me. He or she was excluding a theory, as you do with others...
Lyndasez
20-09-2017 20:18 (GMT)
@KMM, (Look under theories tab on this site, the first theory explains better then I can.)
Thanks, will check that out.
@Nigel, (Sounds like i'm ahead of you then... )
Oh lightyears ahead, ole buddy! I'm running against microwaves here! ;c)
Nigel Evans
20-09-2017 20:16 (GMT)
@KMM - talking to yourself now
Nigel Evans
20-09-2017 20:13 (GMT)
@Lyndasez - "the rav4 weren't preserved in snow they were decomposed". Not really they'd been in the freezer until a short time before being found in the stream. They'd lost eyes and an tongue probably from predation but everything else including the internals was there to examine. Google images frostbite to see some graphic images, if they had any of that the autopsy would record it.
Based on the above the people running around in their socks should have got fb in minutes, in an hour the tissue would be lost/blackened? The 2 yuris display this level of fb BUT NO ONE ELSE? As said it's really weird... Unless the condition of the snow indicating it has been raised in temp close to it's melt point (thaw/freeze) applied to that night? But then how do the 2yuris get it so bad? Enter the microwave warming theory, this warms the snow (water molecules) but not the air so the snow could be +1C but the air temp and associated wind chill could still be very extreme so if the 2yuris stay up in the cedar for any length of time they get bad fb but 4/5meters below them everyone is ok...
KMM
20-09-2017 20:05 (GMT)
I am not "married" to the cia/kgb theory. just a jumping off point looking for what explains the DPi best. It certainly is NOT BL !
KMM
20-09-2017 19:57 (GMT)
@KMM (I'm of the thinking that there was suppose to be a meeting between a kgb agent and western intelligence to transfer some radioactive clothing to the west.)
If I understand correctly, your belief is SZ? was a double-agent, his plan of exchange uncovered and Military elite activated, no survivors...and CIA or MI6 detained, or also destroyed? What was the importance of the clothes?
I'm thinking SZ was working for the kgb, maybe another also. I think Igor would of been made aware of this in order to change the route. Something went wrong and they were killed by the group they were to meet. The radioactive clothing and what location (city) it came from would tell a lot about what activity was going on there.
Look under theories tab on this site, the first theory explains better then I can.
Lyndasez
20-09-2017 19:56 (GMT)
@LC, Oh, no, no, thanks! Was just trying to get a handle on the enormity of undertaking constructing a shelter under severe conditions. Dont think they would see a mansi shelter as the only one I could find looks like an igloo, doubt they'd invade..in pitch dark armed with matches and no lighter, jeez.
Nigel Evans
20-09-2017 19:52 (GMT)
@Lyndasez - "I'm not married to one scenario as of yet." Sounds like i'm ahead of you then...
Lyndasez
20-09-2017 19:49 (GMT)
@Nigel, "Bu they weren't, no frostbite on the rav4. Only the 2yuris show extensive FB. Something happening there no one's thought of yet. The 2yuris are an anomaly compared to the others."
The RAV4 weren't preserved in snow like the others, they were severely decomposed, who could tell if they were frostbitten?
As to the Yuris, they all branched off and possibly given jobs, they were wood supply/fire keepers, (possibly where all the wood came from, for that fancy seat in the den?) one fell out of tree, knocked out the other...an off we go...
Loose-Cannon
20-09-2017 19:43 (GMT)
Still running your gums I see eh Nigel. Quite acting like a man-baby.
Lyndasez... I was referencing Lightning. I'm more then happy to help you out however. Iirc the depth was 5m. I can find it again if need be.
Lyndasez
20-09-2017 19:26 (GMT)
@Nigel, I said nothing about any band of killers, my theory is evolving by including or excluding this or that as more info comes in....I'm not married to one scenario as of yet.
Nigel Evans
20-09-2017 19:22 (GMT)
Banning people doesn't get my vote, plus it's not very practical here.
But i will make two points to the rudest poster who uses the crudest language commonly with a lot of capitals :-
@Lyndasez - "Oh for pity's sake, I'm disputing accounts the victims built it! Can we stay on the same page." You've confused me then asking where's the roof? It's my assumption it was a snowcave?
"....and whilst we're on it, when accounting your theory, could you throw in a a name or 2, like Zina ...Igor, all these initials, gives me pause de-ciphering it all, thank you." What about the Yuris? YuriD and YuriK...
"(SZ was found holding notebook and pencil but nothing written apparently, so i win) How so, I said they had notebooks, you disputed? " He hadn't written anything, my little joke (not my best perhaps).
"Additionally, now you have to explain speeding car crash injuries which left SZ still holding his, blank notepad!? " Ah now this is one of the killer facts against the murder most foul theory. I would maintain that after the rav4 are injured the returning three setup a nursing station to try and make them comfortable including distributing clothing from the dead to the living. So Semyon being a true professional is lying there knowing that it's not good for him so he tries to leave a record of what happened to complement his photographs. But he sadly for us doesn't. Now how do those facts fit with a band of killers running amok? "Don't kill me just yet because i want to leave a little note"? Ditto Rustem, he his found practically face down in the snow but his little cap is curiously placed right on top of his head http://image.ibb.co/gM5Gz5/712202.jpg . Was that a random accident or did Zina place it like that as she left him to try and get to the tent? Don't think the nasty killers would do it...
Don't know anything about Higgs boson collisions, my guess is that quantum physics isn't necessary for explaining BL, i think Kapitsa and the soliton theory (good name for a band) are on the right track.
Den could be a mansi hunter shelter.
Lyndasez
20-09-2017 19:03 (GMT)
@LC, ( BTW... The depth in which the staged den floor was found IS IN THE CASE FILES. How about reading it.... No?)
Don't mean to be the annoying new kid in the class, but I don't see any harm helping each other...I'll get up to speed, meanwhile, any help or direction is appreciated.
Loose-Cannon
20-09-2017 18:50 (GMT)
@Lyndasez I was referring to the width seeing its believed to have been dug sideways by the woodpeckers. Im guessing the search team are the only ones to have dug a shaft downward. You are correct... I do not believe the woodpeckers had the provisions of energy to dig a big cave in packed snow.
@Lightning Yes yes... Lets ban those whomever you disagree with and/or if they counterpunch when insulted.. What is this.... Communist Russia?? Its not my fault? your BL theory was wide open to be shredded. Its baseless to begin with as I have clearly shown. BTW... The depth in which the staged den floor was found IS IN THE CASE FILES. How about reading it.... No?
Lyndasez
20-09-2017 18:36 (GMT)
@KMM (I'm of the thinking that there was suppose to be a meeting between a kgb agent and western intelligence to transfer some radioactive clothing to the west.)
If I understand correctly, your belief is SZ? was a double-agent, his plan of exchange uncovered and Military elite activated, no survivors...and CIA or MI6 detained, or also destroyed? What was the importance of the clothes?
Lyndasez
20-09-2017 18:06 (GMT)
I don't mean to belabor the 'den' issue, however if we can exclude it being built by the RAV4. It opens a whole host of possibilities. Being someone's else's territory...could be the reason they chose not to camp there...plus it means they may have had company. Given that the crew were supplied with no modern means to investigate, binoculars, telescope..left them at a disadvantage if threats approached.
Lyndasez
20-09-2017 17:54 (GMT)
@Lightning, Thank you, 4m converts to 13ft. Let's say 4ft after snow...there's no way the RAV4 devised this...freezing temps, where's the shovel and its pitch dark...no?
Lightning
20-09-2017 17:42 (GMT)
Does anybody have (precise) measurements of den? I know it was 4 m deep.
Lyndasez
20-09-2017 17:34 (GMT)
(Welp, to me it looks rather small.... Say 1.5m in British measurements)
@LC, Oh boy, let's say the dude in the pic is conservatively 5Ft, there is another 4ft of snow above his head, making the entire height 9ft! Which I dispute was dug by the RAV4...just clarifying.
Lightning
20-09-2017 17:27 (GMT)
@Admin- Please ban Loose-Cannon. He is turning this forum into circus.
Lyndasez
20-09-2017 17:19 (GMT)
@Nigel, (All gone quiet here, must be my BL theory stunning everyone into silence...?)
Haha, it sure would be stunning if you actually thought BL was Higgs boson! I'm no student of quantum physics, however, if 2 collided, results would be catastrophic, no?
Lyndasez
20-09-2017 17:15 (GMT)
@Nigel, (The investigation team dug that pit out with shovels!!!)
Oh for pity's sake, I'm disputing accounts the victims built it! Can we stay on the same page.
....and whilst we're on it, when accounting your theory, could you throw in a a name or 2, like Zina ...Igor, all these initials, gives me pause de-ciphering it all, thank you.
(SZ was found holding notebook and pencil but nothing written apparently, so i win)
How so, I said they had notebooks, you disputed? Additionally, now you have to explain speeding car crash injuries which left SZ still holding his, blank notepad!?
Nigel Evans
20-09-2017 17:15 (GMT)
All gone quiet here, must be my BL theory stunning everyone into silence... ?
Loose-Cannon
20-09-2017 09:16 (GMT)
There ya go with that bogus hot-spot pink circle thingy..... All horse-shit.
You do know that snow etc changes after WEEKS... right?
Nigel Evans
20-09-2017 08:59 (GMT)
Wrt den twigs, i think they were found more in a mess and reconstructed for the photo to indicate their use.
Yes i know it's sloppy police work but you've got to remember that all the morgue photos are from the groups own cameras! That's right they've got a possible murder hunt for five people with the cameras containing film of possibly huge importance and they just use up the remaining frames on taking morgue piccies. This was Russia in 1959.
Nigel Evans
20-09-2017 08:42 (GMT)
@LC - "Nigel found a web page article (BL god particle) where some asshat claims a reporter (city folk) came onto the ridge and noticed the snow was crusty on top"
Now who is telling lies, this is the proper story...
The condition of the snow is one of the curiosities of the DPI. -------------------------------------------------------------------
The last photos show them digging the base for the tent out of normal snow having skied there. What the rescuers found was quite different, most of the snow across the whole slope had become extremely icy including the snow on the tent which was so tough to chip through that they damaged the tent. Rescuers couldn't ski to the tent but had to leave their skis and walk carefully the ground was so icy. This condition is consistent with thaw/refreeze as any skier knows however this is the north east face of a siberian mountain. Also there was a spot near the tent called the "hot spot" were the snow had suffciently melted that it had become corrugated in the high winds and refrozen as clear(ish) ice. http://www.viafanzine.jor.br/002imag/03_13/dyatlov4_cedro.jpg . http://www.viafanzine.jor.br/002imag/03_13/dyatlov4_nodoa.jpg . So signs of things warming up sometime after they took those photos of setting up camp.
Also there is the frostbite or lack of it. Seven of these people were in their socks at best and yet only the 2yuris show serious frostbite. Five people in their socks and no gloves for say two hours in -20C with a high wind chill creating effective temps of say -60C (before they got to the forest at least) they should have been getting FB in minutes in those conditions and serious FB in an hour (it probably took 20min to reach the cedar). But very modest fb in some of them with others having none at all. Really really weird.
So there are signs that this entire area was warmer than normal that night.
This fits with the BL theory in that the whole area was in a cloud of naturally created microwaves which also produced the BL. If you think that's science fiction then checkout - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_lightning#Microwave_cavity_hypothesis . True it is still just a theory and in that sense fiction, but one posited by a very senior physicist and one i'm very interested in hence my interest in the DPI. I think the 2012 photos at the DP are of a glow discharge as the theory has it. This theory also explains why the returning three all expire within 330m of each other trying to ascend the mountain, i.e. climb back into the microwave cloud. It also gives you suntans and skin damage. In fact the BL/microwave theory is the only one to explain all the facts and curiosities of the DPI. Nothing else comes half as close.
Nigel Evans
20-09-2017 07:56 (GMT)
@Lyndasez - "They dug down an found this?! They dug with what, a knife?!" The investigation team dug that pit out with shovels!!! The ravine had been filled up with drift between the DPI and the den's discovery.
ID's entry was in the groups diary, a more formal record of the trip. SZ was found holding notebook and pencil but nothing written apparently, so i win
Loose-Cannon
20-09-2017 05:28 (GMT)
KMM.. your right. It bothers me that the twigs are not crushed flat and otherwise have alot of air within them.
Loose-Cannon
20-09-2017 05:26 (GMT)
About the radiation...
I don't put as much into it as you may believe. I'm simply looking at all documented information available. From what I understand (maybe you know different) is that several substances naturally irradiate. Uranium is just what is used when producing plutonium. Either way said substances have to be enriched before reaching substantial levels. The specialist in the official case file didn't utter a single word about getting this naturally as if the run-off water deposited it, but yet quite the opposite. He went into detail regarding washing and how the levels would have been much higher beforehand.
Im more interested in the methanol idea at the moment... Historical context shows a great expansion of oil development at the time and the state had many 'bush drilling' outfits in the area. In the winter, they used enormous amounts of methanol to shove down a well hole to keep it from freezing. In fact, there is evidence showing those very helicopters that transported the bodies had normal operations in the area transporting large amounts of methanol. These model aircraft were literally designed for transporting heavy payloads. They were even instructed to drop their cargo in the outback country in the event of any type accident.... Engine failure, load securement etc...
Who is to say they didn't have a spill of methanol in the area that the woodpeckers waded through causing one or more people within the group to become sick? Through the skin, or through the lugs....either circumstance would have stopped the group in a rather precarious location under unfavorable conditions. Speaking of which, where are the rest of the group members when that photo of them digging in was taken? Where they off sight-seeing in whiteout conditions? Or were they off to the side being cared for? How do we 'know' all was well when the decision to dig in was made?
I can't help but remember being gassed in the Marines for the sole purpose of experiencing what its like to not have oxygen any more and how desperate you become to het away from it. God forbid you have methanol laced clothing fuming up a tent, or you start a fire only to find out it was a really bad idea once the fire ignites your socks etc just a bit too easily. I also can't help but wonder what happens to snow when covered in the substance....
Lots to thinks about...... No tunnel vision for me thanks.
Certainly doesn't look like something dug out from under meters of snow. Where is all the snow that would of been down in-between the branches? looks awful clean from being buried with snow
Loose-Cannon
20-09-2017 04:41 (GMT)
Never mind the fact searchers were eventually ordered to rotate back to civilization because they were becoming unhinged..... Just saying, its right there in the reports. 'tired' was how they described ot.
"They were fairly warm"
Perhaps.... Or, perhaps it was paradoxical undressing.
"Paradoxical undressing is a term for a phenomenon frequently seen in cases of lethal hypothermia. Shortly before death, the person will remove all their clothes, as if they were burning up, when in fact they are freezing."
Perhaps they just thought they were warm.... Eh Nigel? WE JUST DONT KNOW
Say it Nigel... Say after me...
MY THEORY ONLY WORKS IF THE GALAXY ALIGNS JUST RIGHT AND 300 UNKNOWNS ARE TWISTED INTO FACT. ALL FOR THE SAKE OF PRESERVING A NARRATIVE MY INTELLECTUALLY SUPERIOR ASS IS PUSHING.
Say it.... Show me that testicular fortitude.
Loose-Cannon
20-09-2017 04:26 (GMT)
The den...
Welp, to me it looks rather small.... Say 1.5m in British measurements. (Wink) . And the hole/shaft depicted in the photos was dug by the search team. They could have done as Nigel says and dug a cave type shelter from the side of an existing snow bank, but he gets all wonky wonky with the wild BL explosions that throws people meters through away but yet somehow leaves the den flooring of twigs and clothing fully in tact. I don't buy it...... I am very sceptical of the den to begin with..... If it was soo deeply buried, how did the search party know it was even there!?!? I don't buy the trail of clothing lead them to it.... It was buried... Under meters of snow. As in... They follow breadcrumbs that lead into a ravine and miraculously know the exact dead center place to dig? THATS AMAZING!!! I have read reports that the whole den thing was basically made up... Basically the searchers collected twigs the found chopped by the group, and their clothing, then dug a hole and said looky... this is what they must have done here!
The unfortunate fact is... You really cannot put too much into the den conundrum. Too many variables and not nearly enough information. Of course, that leaves an open door to conspiracy theorist that need to fill massive holes in their Swiss-cheese storyline of fictional fantasy.
Loose-Cannon
20-09-2017 04:06 (GMT)
"So why go up there? Why not head for the forest"
I told you already... Its common knowledge these hikers were on the trip in the first place to earn another merit badge, and digging in under extreme conditions on the side of a mountain was not only bragging rights, but would render Igor the talk of the club (and possibly the ladies (Zina).
Besides... Its also well known he was running behind getting bogged down in the deep snow of the lowlands. One trek up the backside of that ridge and they were home free skiing around the parameter of the mountain slop. NOT bogged down in the forest they died in.
Most of this stuff is just a matter of common sense Nigel... No conspiracy to document the elusive god particle with futuristic cameras need apply.
Loose-Cannon
20-09-2017 03:49 (GMT)
There ya go again Nigel.... Telling lies!!
For anyone not aware... Nigel found a web page article (BL god particle) where some asshat claims a reporter (city folk) came onto the ridge and noticed the snow was crusty on top (seen it a million times from the actions of the sun), so the author takes a well known picture from the tent location, circles an area in red, and claims it was a BL 'hot spot'!! Wow... Its like wow, but backwards!
Now every chance Nigel gets, he claims there was undoubtedly a 'hot spot' and speaks of it as if it were facts. What a freakin joke. Its the exact same thing with the bird story.... Rescue team caught their dinner turns into dead birds everywhere!! Same stupid article!!! Burnt tree tops and trunks..... Yup, same elaborate hoax stated somewhere obscure that Nigel preaches as fact only because he wants it so badly.
All rubbish, and he knows it.
Lyndasez
20-09-2017 01:12 (GMT)
@Nigel, "No notebooks of men were found by the rescue. There could be written some previous events or recording ongoing situation. These notebooks could have been destroyed immediately or removed.” (I like to add that there is a certain proof that Sakharova is accurate in this assumption. If one reads Vladimir Aslinadaze’s testimony which can be found here it is pretty obvious that at least Zolotaryov’s notebook was found at the scene. Askinadzi was present there, he is the one who actually found the last 4 bodies. – S.O.)?"
They dug down an found this?! They dug with what, a knife?!
Men don't keep diaries? Who were you quoting from in a previous post about the weather?! Besides I made no mention of diaries, I said the men's notebooks, KGB agents don't take notes?!
@KMM, Thanks, thought I was getting nuts there...been at it all day..
KMM
20-09-2017 00:41 (GMT)
It would of been a "red herring" operation by the kgb to feed false info. It was done before in the soviet union
Nigel Evans
20-09-2017 00:38 (GMT)
@KMM - "Better constructed then a few people freezing to death (in the grip of hypothermia) could accomplish " Bu they weren't, no frostbite on the rav4. Only the 2yuris show extensive FB. Something happening there no one's thought of yet. The 2yuris are an anomaly compared to the others.
KMM
20-09-2017 00:36 (GMT)
Lyndasez 20-09-2017 00:10 (GMT) KMM, Some of your posts are very amusing...can't tell, are you having fun with my logic?
I'm of the thinking that there was suppose to be a meeting between a kgb agent and western intelligence to transfer some radioactive clothing to the west.
Nigel Evans
20-09-2017 00:34 (GMT)
@Lyndasez - "Think like a hiker... if you are in the darkness, you leave a beacon behind to lead you back. You don't go out in the dead of night undressed an leave a unlit flashlight behind for potty purposes." Maybe that was it's purpose, to be the beacon. I'm just giving a reason for it being on the outside of the tent. Don't forget there were 9 people inside that tent sleeping, if each one needs to find the flashlight in the middle of the night that's 9 times through the night. Better to leave it outside in a nominated place?
"Well if it's a cave, what happened to the roof, and why are the 9ft walls perfectly chiseled?" Err they dug down a few meters to find the den? That's how they dug the walls?
"....and off the top of my head, Zinas pockets were turned out, seems to me someone was searching them...where are the men's notebooks? " Men don't keep diaries, it's a girlie thing.
KMM
20-09-2017 00:33 (GMT)
Nigel Evans 20-09-2017 00:26 (GMT) @KMM - knife/axe - a lot of the witness statements contradict each other, 50m or 500m etc etc. The den floor looks well constructed for a temporary shelter.
Better constructed then a few people freezing to death (in the grip of hypothermia) could accomplish
KMM
20-09-2017 00:27 (GMT)
NO, not at all Lyndasez
Nigel Evans
20-09-2017 00:26 (GMT)
@KMM - knife/axe - a lot of the witness statements contradict each other, 50m or 500m etc etc. The den floor looks well constructed for a temporary shelter.
Lyndasez
20-09-2017 00:10 (GMT)
KMM, Some of your posts are very amusing...can't tell, are you having fun with my logic?
KMM
19-09-2017 23:59 (GMT)
Maybe they were supposed to camp on the slope so the people they were suppose to meet could find them. (The ones holed up in the Den that then killed them.)
Lyndasez
19-09-2017 23:52 (GMT)
Nigel, "So why go up there? Why not head for the forest? "
Perhaps they got a gander at that backhoe style den and said...let's not camp on possibly secret or hostile turf!
Nigel, Think like a hiker... if you are in the darkness, you leave a beacon behind to lead you back. You don't go out in the dead of night undressed an leave a unlit flashlight behind for potty purposes.
"Got a feeling SZ wouldn't agree with you. Imo it has to be a snowcave not a more open structure, too cold and NTB's gloves were in his pocket and AK's jacket unzipped. They were fairly warm."
Well if it's a cave, what happened to the roof, and why are the 9ft walls perfectly chiseled?
....and off the top of my head, Zinas pockets were turned out, seems to me someone was searching them...where are the men's notebooks?
KMM
19-09-2017 23:19 (GMT)
knife is in official report.
Added when Ivanov was in a hurry to close the case !
Nigel Evans
19-09-2017 23:19 (GMT)
Just to drive this in :- "the last photos show they were in storm, high winds, whiteout conditions.
So why go up there? Why not head for the forest? "
They weren't lost, ID recorded in the diary the previous night his doubts as to this plan - "It is hard to imagine such a comfort somewhere on the ridge, with a piercing wind, hundreds kilometers away from human settlements"
It's really wierd, their plan was to go up in that weather and camp just under the ridge, not knowing how long the bad weather would last...
KMM
19-09-2017 23:16 (GMT)
Nigel: Imo it has to be a snowcave not a more open structure
When the snow began to fall off gradually and the scraps of clothes were revealed, the search engines once again surveyed the terrain 75 meters from Cedar - that ravine where the landslide had descended.
@KMM - knife is in official report. four seats is from the photograph of the den? RS is my guess.
KMM
19-09-2017 23:08 (GMT)
Nigel: Imo it has to be a snowcave not a more open structure
KEYWORD : IN MY OPINION ! more guessing by Nigel !
Nigel Evans
19-09-2017 23:05 (GMT)
the last photos show they were in storm, high winds, whiteout conditions.
So why go up there? Why not head for the forest?
KMM
19-09-2017 23:05 (GMT)
Nigel Evans 19-09-2017 21:30 (GMT) The official report says YK's knife was found nearby so they had a tool to cut the wood with which to dig into a snowbank.. The photo of the den suggests 4 seats and it maybe RS was there to. I'd say more like 7x7ft.
Where do you get this? from Ivanov's ramblings? About all reports I've read say all but the penknife was found in the tent.
Nigel Evans
19-09-2017 23:03 (GMT)
@Lyndasez - you mean the turned off flashlight on the tent? I've suggested that it could have been there as the "toilet flashlight" for trips in the night. Hence it was turned off. Might have moved/rolled with the wind flapping the tent perhaps.
Got a feeling SZ wouldn't agree with you. Imo it has to be a snowcave not a more open structure, too cold and NTB's gloves were in his pocket and AK's jacket unzipped. They were fairly warm.
Lyndasez
19-09-2017 22:59 (GMT)
@Anna, Nigel an some accounts said there was a storm...false???
" They didn't know how long the snowstorm would last, it could have been days... So this a key piece of the mystery imo."
Lyndasez
19-09-2017 22:42 (GMT)
Still doesn't answer...who turned off that flashlight? Had enough juice to light for the search party. And why panic if a light is hovering outside, may as well grab some shoes on the way out if you're done for!
That den was not dug by them...sorry, they may have fashioned a seat but that's all I'll give you..
Nigel Evans
19-09-2017 22:26 (GMT)
Anna/Lyndasez
N.B. "GLO" stands for "Globular Light-emitting Object", it's not immediately obvious and is a bit confusing.
Nigel Evans
19-09-2017 22:21 (GMT)
@Anna - there's differently types of BL, Hessdalen lights have been observed for 1 hour visible and several hours at radar wavelengths. The 2012 trip talk of it lasting 4 1/2 hours. It would be correct to say that all the other eye witness accounts from 1959 talk of DP lights of a few minutes. Please don't start comparing Siberian lights to those produced by thunderstorms.
@Lyndasez "Den looks like the product of a backhoe" some stout branches in that picture. Maybe WW2 vets know more about this than you or i.
they did this in a pitch dark storm!? not if there was an object as bright as the full moon up on the hill or a missing torch or maybe from the fire.
If this BL is the sort that hovers in place awaiting prey.. BL isn't sentient?
This is madness! Funnily enough the BL theory doesn't get everyone's vote....
Anna Yordanova
19-09-2017 22:08 (GMT)
Nigel , I have read that the life of a BL is only about 10 sec(the time for the ions to disperse on the ground).Do you think that all of what you are saying could happen in such a short period of time? I don`t understand why do you consider these glowing orbs to be BL, when first of all there are no factors ,indicating the appearance of them. No storm was reported in the area that night.
Lyndasez
19-09-2017 22:06 (GMT)
What in blue blazes!!! You think they fashioned shovels and built this?! http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-the-den-01.jpg Den looks like the product of a backhoe, they did this in a pitch dark storm!? You can't be serious! If this BL is the sort that hovers in place awaiting prey...why not dress accordingly an crawl commando style to safety?! This is madness!
Nigel Evans
19-09-2017 21:30 (GMT)
The official report says YK's knife was found nearby so they had a tool to cut the wood with which to dig into a snowbank.. The photo of the den suggests 4 seats and it maybe RS was there to. I'd say more like 7x7ft.
"The key to all this is why'd they leave the tent orderly it seems without proper clothes...but have the presence of mind to leave a beacon back????? ", Ah that's the beauty of the BL theory. Fits all the facts here like a glove (almost).
They had to flee it hovering just outside at the hotspot. But once a little way away they could relax and walk for the forest to beat the windchill. Whilst the BL hovered at the tent they couldn't return. When it left they'd need a beacon to assist returning. When they got to the cedar it was still back there so they made a fire. Probably SZ disagreed with the fire and recommended a den as his WW2 experience. The BL moved down the hill and exploded in the ravine with enough force to throw the rav4 several meters and kill birds, maybe leaving RS injured. AK's autopsy is cause for concern here. The deformed neck (snapped) would fit the above but the pathologist never investigated it? ID, ZK and RS are only survivors, they tend to the injured stripping 2yuris and moving clothing from LD to SZ. BL now gone so ZK and RS try and return to tent for supplies but they're climbing into the microwaves and find it debilitating, RS collapses first, ZK puts his cap on the back of his head and continues but also expires. Later ID realises that they're not returning and tries to return but expires. N.B. RS and ID are not found in the classic foetal position of dying from cold.
The only bit that doesn't fit perfectly is what happened to the 2yuris, they have to die and be turned (stripped) sometme later after the lividity has frozen in. It would be nice to say the explosion threw them out of the tree onto the fire but the it doesn't suit the timeline, has to be something else earlier.
Lyndasez
19-09-2017 21:04 (GMT)
A simple fix if this was covert, to say, winter storm, some were sent out to look for shelter from the wind, didn't come back...they were struck by lighting, others froze searching... But Svetlana, who worked with Ivanov, I believe, said, his first instinct was murder till he saw the RAV4...whatever that means...
Lyndasez
19-09-2017 20:52 (GMT)
Nigel, ...and they come across a, what looks like a 9ft x 9ft den outfitted with a seat?! What are the odds of that? I don't believe the hikers built it, where's the shovel, would've been suicidal given their clothes. The key to all this is why'd they leave the tent orderly it seems without proper clothes...but have the presence of mind to leave a beacon back?????
Nigel Evans
19-09-2017 20:48 (GMT)
"Why not just own it?" Why not just keep quiet about it?
Nigel Evans
19-09-2017 20:41 (GMT)
"Who it to say those lights weren't secret military aircraft, missiles, comets..?? Are they harnessing BL now for some scientific reason? The KBG would've sent out experts to investigate...with REAL EQUIPMENT ...not just dinky cameras, come on.. "
All fair points but there are the facts, SZ attached to the group even he had nothing to do with the university, they went up to the ridge in a snowstorm even though ID records in the diary the previous night he has concerns. So what was going on? Why on earth would any group of experienced skiers elect to spend the night above the treeline is those conditions instead of staying with the planned route? They didn't know how long the snowstorm would last, it could have been days... So this a key piece of the mystery imo.
Lyndasez
19-09-2017 20:24 (GMT)
PLUS, If if what you theorize is true. Why not just own it? Say we sent a agent out with these kids to explore BL and they got hit with it...case closed..
Lyndasez
19-09-2017 20:14 (GMT)
They veered off course..says you, because this KGB guy amongst them knew the coordinates of lighting!
Who it to say those lights weren't secret military aircraft, missiles, comets..?? Are they harnessing BL now for some scientific reason? The KBG would've sent out experts to investigate...with REAL EQUIPMENT ...not just dinky cameras, come on..
@LC - perhaps better as "strontium-90, carbon-14, tritium, and sulfur-35" are dug out of the ground?
Lyndasez
19-09-2017 19:53 (GMT)
Dozens of sites say so, google it!
"On February 1, a snowstorm moved in, and the group lost their way -- instead of maintaining their heading toward Dyatlov Pass, they veered west, toward the peak of Kholat Syakhi. At some point they realized their mistake, but instead of retracing their path, they chose to camp on the mountainside and wait out the storm."
Nigel Evans
19-09-2017 19:44 (GMT)
@LC - uranium is dug out the ground yes?
@Lyndasez - err, yes but the authorities knew where it was? Who says they veered off course?
You guys keep dissing the BL theory but all i hear from you is nonsense about thyroids and hangars that almost certainly weren't built in 1959....
Lyndasez
19-09-2017 19:36 (GMT)
Built in the 40's "Codenamed City 40, Ozersk was the birthplace of the Soviet nuclear weapons programme after the second world war. For decades, this city of 100,000 people did not appear on any maps, and its inhabitants’ identities were erased from the Soviet census." @Nigel, This place didn't appear on maps, plus they veered off approved course...
Loose-Cannon
19-09-2017 19:36 (GMT)
You think many times higher is something you drink out of snow run-off?
Nigel Evans
19-09-2017 19:34 (GMT)
@LC - "Have you seen the boulder she was straggling" Probably thrown on it by an explosion....
Nigel Evans
19-09-2017 19:32 (GMT)
@LC - "The clothing was not just radiated from natural sources. " Err uranium comes from natural sources?
Loose-Cannon
19-09-2017 19:23 (GMT)
Whats the point Nigel?
Lemme guess... To you, 'throw' is 100% fact she was blown up by a fireball. Am I right!?!
500euros say I can toss your butt into that ditch and onto the boulders at the bottom..... Lets do this...
Whatever you do... Ignore the part about impact force... Fall.... HELLO MCFLY! HELLO..... Have you seen the boulder she was straggling?
Loose-Cannon
19-09-2017 19:12 (GMT)
The thyroid gland holds radiation levels 200 times higher then other organs... Its THE organ to test if testing for radiation exposure. It either wasn't tested, or the results were hidden. Pretty significant imho.
But my main point is.... You said I was wrong, when in fact.... YOUR stupid book was wrong, and you along with it. You need to burn that blasted thing!!!
'MANY TIMES HIGHER PRIOR TO BEING WASHED'.... The clothing was not just radiated from natural sources.
Nigel Evans
19-09-2017 19:05 (GMT)
@Lyndasez - well i'm excluding it because they wouldn't have been given permission for the route if it had been there.
Nigel Evans
19-09-2017 19:00 (GMT)
Statements from LD's autopsy :-
The position of the internal organs is regular, the pleural cavities contain up to one and a half litres of liquid dark blood.
and
Based on the forensic examination of the corpse of Ms. L.A. Dubinina I think that the death of Ms. Dubinina was caused by massive haemorrhage into the right ventricle, multiple bilateral rib fractures, and internal bleeding into the thoracic cavity. The said damage was probably caused by an impact of great force causing severe closed lethal trauma to the chest of Ms. Dubinina. The trauma was caused during life and is the result of high force impact with subsequent fall, throw or bruise to the chest of Ms. Dubinina.
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (p. 215). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
Nigel Evans
19-09-2017 18:57 (GMT)
Statements from SZ's autopsy :-
The pleural cavities contained up to one litre of liquid dark blood.
and
Based on the examination of the corpse of Mr. Zolotaryov, 37 years old, I think that he died due to multiple fractures of the right ribs with internal haemorrhaging to the pleural cavity while at a low temperature. The above-mentioned multiple fractures of Zolotariev’s ribs with haemorrhaging into the pleural cavity were caused in vivo as an effect of a high-power impact to the chest of Zolotariev at the moment of his fall, squeezing or throwing.
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (p. 215). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
in vivo means whilst alive. He died from internal bleeding together with the cold
Sandy
19-09-2017 18:48 (GMT)
@LC - You stated Igor had "Charles Manson's eyes".
No, he doesn't. I've read a lot about Charlie over the years & this laughing innocent boy, esp. with the snow on his face, looks nothing like Manson. Not sure how you came up with that one but rest assured.......no one has eyes like Charlie but Charlie. There is nothing evil looking about Igor. Just more of your b.s.......
Sandy
19-09-2017 18:39 (GMT)
As I understood it there was no bruising (bleeding) caused by the horrific crushed chest, otherwise he died from it, which is it, since there's ...ahem, no coverup, he died from freezing or crushed chest?
He died from the crushed chest. The last 4 died from their massive injuries caused by homicide.
Lyndasez
19-09-2017 18:37 (GMT)
@Anna, Igor, I assume left his flashlight atop the tent, as beacon back to the tent. Someone, turned it off, as it still had power when the search party came upon it. So, either there was a nut job amongst them or they had company...??
Sandy
19-09-2017 18:30 (GMT)
I do believe there was plenty among the group to squabble over. From the numerous diary entries I post a while back to the indications I see Zina being a big tease and likely leading Igor on..... to top it all off she brought here 'ex lover' Yuri along for the trip. I think she was still fairly close to Yuri and getting the same string-along as Igor. There are loads of prior DPI photos of Zina and Yuri on previous hikes etc. From what I understand, Yuri was the only boy she ever brought home to meet her parents. Written by LC
@L.C. I find this offensive as there is nothing written about her being a tease. Yuri was NOT her "ex lover". Zina was still a virgin as well as Luda. Zina wrote in her diary that Yuri had been "holding hands with a girl from the other group" & how she felt jealous. Zina had nothing to do with Yuri wanting to come along. She wrote in her diary she wasn't sure how she'd feel. Zina still had feelings for Yuri. So she wasn't "stringing him along at all".
She like the attention of boys.... if ya know what Im sayin. No, LC, I don't know wtf you're trying to say.
I disagree with this & find it offensive to Zina as well. There is no truth in this. Her & Yuri went out a few times & he quit seeing her. She was a virgin as I stated b/4. She was irritated with Igor because he made her sleep next to the stove the nite b/4. Perhaps it was her turn.
Lyndasez
19-09-2017 18:15 (GMT)
"And what if they have diverged from the course, due to poor visibility and came across the bunker by accident?"
Anna, this is certainly littered with possibilities. Given that the Kyshtym Accident, a nuclear incident happened in Sept '57 in southern Urals an no one knew it till the '80s.
I've read the notebooks for the men are missing, or sewn up in a Top Secret file, so I think they are hiding many things.
Lyndasez
19-09-2017 18:01 (GMT)
I'm not assuming when it was built, I'm just not excluding it from the realm of possibilities.
You assume reports of lights are ball-lightning how is what I do different?
Anna Yordanova
19-09-2017 17:55 (GMT)
I meant possible
Anna Yordanova
19-09-2017 17:54 (GMT)
And what if they have diverged from the course, due to poor visibility and came across the bunker by accident?Maybe that's why the military were interested why the hikers have been there and shut the area for the next three years. To me that seems very posdie.
Nigel Evans
19-09-2017 17:19 (GMT)
@Lyndasez - you keep assuming it was built before the DPI? This is very unlikely as the state wouldn't have given permission for the trip?
Lyndasez
19-09-2017 15:32 (GMT)
" Hmmm time to blow it off again! "
I think not, it can be seen from satellite, would've been huge to the hikers. We're they supposed to go off course? I'm sure they gave a map of their expedition for approval. Everything is up for supposition in this saga. You think they're gonna register schematics of this bunker?!
Nigel Evans
19-09-2017 15:13 (GMT)
@Lyndasez - yes the existence of the building has already been discussed as has that the date of it's construction is key to it's consideration. The group could only progress with their trip by seeking permission. I can't see how it would be granted if there was a secret establishment nearby. It's a red herring. "A paranormal researcher believes it was testing neutron weapons". Hmmm time to blow it off again!
Lyndasez
19-09-2017 15:02 (GMT)
"what's your source for that info about the bunker?"
I posted this a couple of days ago. You blew it off as being previously covered......
A mysterious object was discovered near the site, where hikers died when trying to cross the Dyatlov Pass. Amateur radio engineer and researcher of paranormal phenomena Valentin Degtyarev believes that the structure that was found on the site may have a connection with the tragedy that took place there in the winter of 1959. It goes about a construction 25-30 meters long and 10-15 meters wide. The construction was found at a distance of ten kilometers from the site, when a group of hikers died in 1959. The construction, Degtyarev believes, could be a part of a bunker that had been built in the Ural mountains during the times of the Cold War. The researcher assumes that the group of hikers could find themselves on the pass the day when neutron weapons were tested. This may explain the presence of radioactive substances on the clothes of one of the victims. The death of the hikers could be a reason, for which the tests were wrapped up. The underground building was blown up and mothballed. The upper part of the bunker is still visible on satellite images. The Dyatlov Pass is considered to be one of the most mysterious areas of hiker routes in the Urals. In February 1959, nine skiers of a hiker club were killed near Mount Otorten under unclear circumstances. Igor Dyatlov was the leader of the group. The bodies that were subsequently found on the site shocked forensic experts: most of the people froze to death, whereas traces on the bodies of other victims indicated that they had died violent deaths. The pass was named in memory of the hiker group led by Igor Dyatlov. Some researchers believe that the hikers died as a result of an explosion of a ballistic missile. According to ex-governor of the Sverdlovsk region, Senator Eduard Rossel, the tragedy on the Dyatlov Pass still remains strictly classified information. Pravda.Ru 08.14.2017
Lyndasez
19-09-2017 14:58 (GMT)
"I've discounted the radiation as a not productive avenue for consideration."
This is interesting given your Phd in physics or was that the Wolfeman?!
Nigel Evans
19-09-2017 14:55 (GMT)
@Lyndasez - what's your source for that info about the bunker?
Lyndasez
19-09-2017 14:41 (GMT)
"agreed the clothing indicates much higher levels of contamination but where did it come from?"
@Nigel, quite possibly from the underground bunker (neutron bomb testing) they recently found, mothballed, but was active in the 50s. It was 6 miles from their campsite or..YK brought some of his work home with him..on clothes...working with plutonium.
Nigel Evans
19-09-2017 14:32 (GMT)
@Lyndasez - agreed the clothing indicates much higher levels of contamination but where did it come from? Yudin was a geologist collecting rocks, the area had uranium deposits so could just be accidental contamination from dust or even from the stream. Given that none of this clothing contamination seems to have affected the tested tissues then the chances that testing the thyroid would show anything different is an extreme longshot imo. I've discounted the radiation as a not productive avenue for consideration.
Lyndasez
19-09-2017 14:22 (GMT)
"Err what's your point here, the findings are that the tiisue samples are normal? Clothing is inflated."
@Nigel, I 'think,' LCs complaint is, they didn't test the thyroid gland, and come on, that contamination on the clothes is whoa high after washing!
Lyndasez
19-09-2017 14:10 (GMT)
@Anna, "Woodpecker," was a short wave radio signal Russia emitted in the 70s and thought to be 'mind control,' device. So, possibly they later gave Igor this moniker because he was a radio enthusiast?
Nigel Evans
19-09-2017 14:00 (GMT)
@Anna - well woodpeckers aside, there's no cause to mis translate the dates. So the question would be what does the original text say? If that says 1st feb also then imo the article has to be discounted as incorrect. Could be bad journalism, could even be Ivanov, unless hibinaud is to be challenged?
Anna Yordanova
19-09-2017 13:51 (GMT)
The translation is beyond joke Nigel. Woodpecker? What the heck! Dyatlov! Not Woodpecker.
On February 17, I and Vladimir Shevkunov got up at 6.00 in the morning to prepare breakfast for the group. After splitting the fire and making everything necessary, they waited for the food to be ready. The sky was cloudy, there were no clouds and no clouds, but there was a slight haze, which usually dissipates with the rising of the sun. Sitting face to the north and accidentally turning his head to the east, he saw that a milky white blur about 5-6 lunar in diameter and a series of concentric circles consisting of a row of them had spread in the sky at a height (...?). It resembled a halo around the moon in a clear frosty weather. I made a comment to my partner, that's how they painted the moon. He thought and said that in the first moon there is no, and besides, it should be on the other side. From the moment we noticed this phenomenon took 1-2 minutes, how long it lasted before
Sheet 212
and how did I initially do not know. At this moment, at the very center of this spot, an asterisk flared up, which for a few seconds remained the same size, and then began to increase sharply in size and rapidly move in a western direction. Within a few seconds, she grew to the size of the moon, and then tearing off the smoke screen or clouds appeared a huge milk disc of milky color, 2-2.5 lunar in diameter, surrounded by the same rings of pale color. Then, remaining the same size, the ball began to fade until it merged with the surrounding halo, which in turn spread out across the sky and went out. It was dawn. The clock was 6.57, the phenomenon lasted no more than a half minutes and produced a very uneasy impression. Initially, we did not pay attention to it, but then, when the glowing disk itself appeared, they were amazed. Personally, I had the impression that some heavenly body was falling in our direction, then, when it had grown to such enormous dimensions, a thought flashed through, another planet came into contact with the earth, that now a collision would follow and nothing would remain of all earthly things. We were already awake for more than an hour, so we could retire after sleeping and not believe in hallucinations, but in the end everything was as hypnotized and only when
(illegible)
Nigel Evans
19-09-2017 11:40 (GMT)
@LC - the last post wrt this statement :- "THIS PARAGRAPH IS THE SUMMARY OF THE FINDINGS ON THE CLOTHING ONLY!!!!
THE SUMMARY OF THE TISSUE SAMPLES ARE AFTER THE READINGS ON THEM, AND IT STATES NO SUCH NONSENSE!"
Nigel Evans
19-09-2017 11:39 (GMT)
@LC - "CONCLUSIONS: 1) The solid biosubstrates studied contain radioactive substances within the natural content determined by Kali-40. 2) The individual samples of clothing examined contain several inflated quantities of radioactive substances or radioactive material, which is a beta emitter. 3) Detected radioactive substances or radioactive substances when washing clothing samples tend to flush, i.e. are caused not by a neutron flux and induced radioactivity, but by radioactive contamination with beta particles. Chief radiologist of the city of Levashov 27.05.1959 (Signed)" "
Err what's your point here, the findings are that the tiisue samples are normal? Clothing is inflated.
KMM
19-09-2017 05:56 (GMT)
Every site says something different. TOO much conflicting information,
I guess since you cant take a picture of it.... may as well leave it out of the investigation ENTIRELY!!
Lyndasez
18-09-2017 16:07 (GMT)
"Not sure black and white photography would have been much use. Could have been a practical issue, bad weather, then fell through the cracks" Nothing fell through the cracks unless Ivanov wanted it to #1. #2, Burn marks on live wood trunks would be visible for a very long time. Your excuse is ridiculous at best. Black/white photography wont work....... gimme a freakin break, WEAK! "
@Loose Cannon, I agree, the naivety Nigel labors under is puzzling to say the least. Black n white photos are of no use, neither are rulers, how bout a pic of the burn with a ruler beside it?! Measurements, photos, any visual that can aid in proving a theory is critical!
Loose-Cannon
18-09-2017 15:17 (GMT)
READ THE DAMN CASE FILE!
The statement regarding.....
"The absence of appropriate instruments and conditions in the laboratory made it impossible to perform radiochemical and spectrometric analysis to determine the chemical structure of the emitter and its radiation energy."
Is taken from this paragraph in its entirety...
"Experimental washing of clothes showed that the contamination is removed, the percentage of washing varies from 30% to 60% (washing clothes was done in running cold water for 3 hours). When determining the type of radiation, it is established that the activity takes place due to beta particles. Alpha particles and gamma quanta were not detected. The absence of appropriate instruments and conditions in the laboratory made it impossible to perform radiochemical and spectrometric analysis to determine the chemical structure of the emitter and its radiation energy. Radiometric measurements of solid biosubstrates were carried out on a B-2 installation (No. 2554) in a lead house with a BFA-25 meter. The unit was measured using a strontium preparation with an activity of 1) 7000 rpm, 2) 2000 rpm. The results of measurements of samples from No. 1,2,3,4 are summarized in Table No. 1 (see on the back)"
THIS PARAGRAPH IS THE SUMMARY OF THE FINDINGS ON THE CLOTHING ONLY!!!!
THE SUMMARY OF THE TISSUE SAMPLES ARE AFTER THE READINGS ON THEM, AND IT STATES NO SUCH NONSENSE!
" Control samples were obtained from the forensic medical expert of Dr. Renaissance. The samples of the tissues of a person who died in the accident of a motor vehicle in the city of Sverdlovsk, also showed the presence of a natural radiological element of potassium-40 in approximately the same amounts as in Table 1.
Thus, the results of the studies in Tables 1 and 3 do not exceed the averaged data on the content of radioactive substances in human organs and may be due to
natural radioactive Potassium-40. Radiation by type refers to the Beta- particles. Alpha particles and gamma quanta were not detected. CONCLUSIONS: 1) The solid biosubstrates studied contain radioactive substances within the natural content determined by Kali-40. 2) The individual samples of clothing examined contain several inflated quantities of radioactive substances or radioactive material, which is a beta emitter. 3) Detected radioactive substances or radioactive substances when washing clothing samples tend to flush, i.e. are caused not by a neutron flux and induced radioactivity, but by radioactive contamination with beta particles. Chief radiologist of the city of Levashov 27.05.1959 (Signed)"
Loose-Cannon
18-09-2017 15:09 (GMT)
Laff... what am I wrong about? I posted a link to the ACTUAL RECORD that shows clearly the organs tested, and the results. I posted it because you specifically stated .... "The pathologist took tissue samples for further analysis but i don't know of any radiation testing."
Here is THE ACTUAL CASE FILE!!!! and I dont give a rats ass who ordered it. As you can see... your book grossly reworded it! .
So they didnt do a radio'chemical' test to determine the chemical structure of the emitter.... so what! It was beta and measured.
Nigel Evans
18-09-2017 14:38 (GMT)
@LC - lots of stuff there to answer, i'll come back later on might even be tomorrow. You're wrong about the radiation tests :- Under the orders of Investigator Ivanov, an examination was made of the clothes of some expedition members, in order to determine if there was any radioactive contamination on the clothes or the dead bodies. To order a radiological examination was by no means a regular part of the investigative process. The examination was conducted on May 18, in a poorly equipped city laboratory, almost ten days after the last funeral. Vladimir Levashov, the main radiologist of Yekaterinburg, conducted the examination. Levashov’s report reads: ‘The absence of adequate equipment and the conditions in our laboratory did not allow us to conduct radiochemical and spectrometric analysis for defining the chemical structure of the emitter and measuring the energy of its emission.’ It’s possible that in May, Ivanov received some information or an order to conduct this examination. It’s also possible this was done on his own initiative. If it had been ordered from above, the examination would have taken place in the best possible laboratory, which, at that time in the USSR, would have been in a military institution. As it was, Ivanov contacted the rescue party member Albert Kikoin whose brother, Isaak Kikoin, was in charge of a national laboratory for studying radiation. Levashov was warned that this investigation was to be a matter of secrecy and he signed a document to confirm he wouldn’t release the information to anyone but the investigator. He was provided with all the clothes of Zolotaryov, Dubinina, Kolevatov, and Tibeaux, as well as bio-culture samples of their bodies.
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (p. 103). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
Nigel Evans
18-09-2017 14:33 (GMT)
@Lyndasez - "As I understood it there was no bruising (bleeding) caused by the horrific crushed chest, otherwise he died from it, which is it, since there's ...ahem, no coverup, he died from freezing or crushed chest?" Yes there wasn't any bruising but there was internal bleeding. When you go to a restaurant and order ribs, you're getting the tissue surrounding the actual bone to eat. When the rib cage suffers a massive fracture as in these injuries then that tissue is ripped and bleeds whilst the heart continues to beat. So a pathologist is trained to look at how extensive the trauma is and collect the volume of blood and estimate the how long the bleeding was before the person died and it stopped. From memory one of them had a litre of bleeding which takes a while.
"They didn't wait because parents and other students and interested parties were gonna conduct their own search! Too bad they didn't!" Well first they wouldn't be going anywhere without state permission and even if they did get it (which they wouldn't because the state had concerns about defection), for a prolonged investigation they would need a supply chain. Pretty expensive business definately best left to the resources of the state.
Lyndasez
18-09-2017 14:05 (GMT)
@Nigel "But if they wanted to hide the cause of death, why not wait until the summer? They'd come back to find just skeletons spread all over the mountain by predators. What are they going to measure that isn't known?"
They didn't wait because parents and other students and interested parties were gonna conduct their own search! Too bad they didn't! How bout depth of snow, tent, distances, evidence found near bodies, cuts on ski poles, cuts on tent before they added to them...let's not get into lack of photos...forget it, the Donner party was better documented!
These clothing articles were glow-in-the-dark radiated prior to being washed in the creek. Makes you wonder why the first 5 were not tested. Or were they and the results were hidden..... Its also interesting to note the helicopter crew refused to fly out the bodies of the rav4 until proper radiation protective body bags were obtained. The rav4 bodies were not tested as of yet, so how on earth would they have reason to suspect radiation???
Oh to be sure there was fighting goin on, both ladies make mention of it in diaries. That “unknown compelling force," was themselves...something worked them pretty good.
Question #4. What do you think, what could be the degree of contamination of individual objects, if you take into account that prior to research they had been in the running water for about 15 days.
Answer: It can be assumed that the contamination of individual garments was many times greater, but here one must take into account that clothes could be washed unevenly, that is, with varying degrees of intensity."
THEY WERE IN THE STREAM A LOT LONGER THEN 15 DAYS..... You do the math.
Lyndasez
18-09-2017 13:29 (GMT)
@Nigel,
"Because the pathologist would have spotted the lack of internal bleeding with the two chest fractures (unless he's lying as per coverup)."
As I understood it there was no bruising (bleeding) caused by the horrific crushed chest, otherwise he died from it, which is it, since there's ...ahem, no coverup, he died from freezing or crushed chest?
Loose-Cannon
18-09-2017 13:24 (GMT)
"You would have to produce facts for this claim." I am not surprised you are not paying attention....
"I'm not aware of this, they had a vat of alcohol for the staff to wash with." Someone refuses to read the autopsy reports and the sworn testimonies.
"Probably assumed freezing." Show me another case or study stating THREE TIMES THE SIZE is normal.
"The radiation testing was done privately by a friend on his own initiative EVEN though he had been ordered to wrap up the case.... Afaik it was only on the clothing. The pathologist took tissue samples for further analysis but i don't know of any radiation testing." There is a lot you are not aware of.... to busy with head up ones own ass i would presume. https://sites.google.com/site/hibinaud/home/zaklucenie-eksperta
"Nothing wrong in "Missing presumed dead", interesting that she wouldn't sign(" Unless of course your the head of an investigation regarding 4 missing people. How does he know they are dead? Alot of presuming if you ask me. FYI, there were TWO other signatures required on that document other then Ivanovs..... Neither would sign off on it!
"Not sure black and white photography would have been much use. Could have been a practical issue, bad weather, then fell through the cracks" Nothing fell through the cracks unless Ivanov wanted it to #1. #2, Burn marks on live wood trunks would be visible for a very long time. Your excuse is ridiculous at best. Black/white photography wont work....... gimme a freakin break, WEAK!
"My guess is that they did take them and they've been lost." Yeah yeah.... lost... thats it. Ivanov must have lost them! Add that to the list then...... I call BS
"Once they had the bodies it was wrapped up as it was costing a fortune." I guess thats why it was closed to the public for 3 years.... right nigel... Tell me, today in London if they were to find 4 mutilated bodies.... would the case be closed the same day? Unbelievable
"Not an easy one to solve" Not for anyone that came afterwards.... you know why?... IVANOV .
Nigel, you displayed a rather weak and pathetic set of excuses, and you know what they say about excuses. Its somewhat concerning watching you twist truths and invent others.
Nigel Evans
18-09-2017 10:34 (GMT)
#1 He was reported to be 'out of it' and otherwise not interested while on site. Maybe he had drunk a bit too much vodka.
#2 Lack of investigation photos etc Probably the fault of the other guy.
#3 He arrived at the tent AFTER it had beed fubared by in-computation college kids, made an on-the-record report of its state with spicifics, then says that another investigator was there before him so go ask him, the other guys account is very different. You would have to produce facts for this claim.
#4 He spent all but 5min at each site. Apparently he didn't visit the site when the rav4 were found which i've remarked upon. But this could have been a hiearchy thing, he had a team of men there full time so they would do the footwork. Don't forget that Ivanov was ordered to Moscow during this investigation and came back "a changed man" there was good reason for him to be fearful for his future if it was a state coverup. I'm not saying it was of course but he would be watching his back pretty hard.
#5 The rav4 bodies were thoroughly washed with chemicals to hide something I'm not aware of this, they had a vat of alcohol for the staff to wash with.
#6 The Aortas were measured, but he never investigated as to why 3 times larger then normal Probably assumed freezing.
#7 Nearly every organ of the Rav4 were tested for radiation levels except THE ONE ORGAN that hold the highest concentration.... the thyroid. 200% higher concentration and this isnt 'new' information. He either covered up the results OR he purposely excluded them from the official order. They tested what he asked them to test.... nothing more. The radiation testing was done privately by a friend on his own initiative EVEN though he had been ordered to wrap up the case.... Afaik it was only on the clothing. The pathologist took tissue samples for further analysis but i don't know of any radiation testing.
#8 He has been all over the map as to who, what, and why..... wonky at best. Rolls eyes.
#9 The forensic expert and criminalist expert Churkina refused to sign off on the official autopsy, but Ivanov signed..... AS OF TODAY THE AUTOPSY REPORTS ON RAV4 ARE INVALID!. ALL THREE WERE SUPPOSED TO SIGN!! IVANOV WAS NOT INTERESTED IN THE EXPERTS OPINION AND THE TWO EXPERTS REFUSED TO PUT THEIR NAME ON A BOTCHED REPORT! https://image.ibb.co/dFTBya/sme.jpg #10 Ivanov made an official report that all 9 hikers had died..... BEFORE THE RAV4 were found!!!! Nothing wrong in "Missing presumed dead", interesting that she wouldn't sign, S Oss states that she thought the head pathologist was "afraid".
#11 In 1990 he wrote an article stating that trees had burn marks.... yet THERE HAS NEVER AND WILL NEVER BE ANYTHING ABOUT THAT DOCUMENTED IN THE OFFICIAL REPORTS AND NOTHING OF THE SORT WAS EVER DOCUMENTED>>>>>> GE EITHER BOTCHED THE INVESTIGATION IN 1959, OR HE IS A FREAKING LIAR.... TAKE YOUR PICK. Not sure black and white photography would have been much use. Could have been a practical issue, bad weather, then fell through the cracks.
#12 HE ORDERED A TEAM TO DIG OUT THE TENT AND ITS CONTENTS WITH AN AXE AND SHOVELS AND THEN DRAG THE TENT OVER ROCKS AND ICE TO THE HELICOPTER.... WITHOUT A SINGLE PHOTO BEING TAKEN OF ITS CONTENTS OR THE LAYOUT AND CONDITION PRIOR TO REMOVAL....... ID LIKE TO POP THIS IDIOT IN THE DING-DONG! There is one photograph of the tent prior to removal which begs the question why not more? My guess is that they did take them and they've been lost.
#13 He closed the case PREMATURELY! Once they had the bodies it was wrapped up as it was costing a fortune.
#14 He didnt solve the case. Not an easy one to solve...
Lightning
18-09-2017 08:46 (GMT)
Loose Cannon- you mad bro because trump didn't build the wall?
Loose-Cannon
18-09-2017 04:35 (GMT)
@Lyndasez .
I do believe there was plenty among the group to squabble over. From the numerous diary entries I post a while back to the indications I see Zina being a big tease and likely leading Igor on..... to top it all off she brought here 'ex lover' Yuri along for the trip. I think she was still fairly close to Yuri and getting the same string-along as Igor. There are loads of prior DPI photos of Zina and Yuri on previous hikes etc. From what I understand, Yuri was the only boy she ever brought home to meet her parents.
I would also expect in the 1950s for this skimpy dipping in front of the boys to be pretty damn risque. An event like this likely got around among the boys.... Pretty sure thats not a 1950s bikini. http://image.ibb.co/fBmxR5/0_8d2b1_5263cc95_XL.jpg
Loose-Cannon
18-09-2017 01:47 (GMT)
An interesting picture I doubt many have seen. Looks to be a main grouping of prints and then a smaller grouping of '2' a little further out.
Nigel... here are the conditions the morning of on the backside of the ridge. Weather must have changed on them pretty rapidly!!. http://image.ibb.co/b8ioG5/les.jpg .
"The media acts in all bodies, regardless of their position (many found face down on the side) Vozrozhdenniy corpse spots found on the back surface of the torso neck and limbs .
From the act of examination of corpses. Cadaveric spots.
Doroshenko Yuri - purple-purple disposed on the rear surface of torso and neck limbs . Kolevatov Alexander - crimson-purple richly arranged on the rear right side of the trunk and the extremities . Krivonischenko Georgiy - purple-lilac color, located on the back of the neck of the body and of course first. Dyatlov Igor - bluish-red colors are located on the rear surface of the body of the neck and limbs . Slobodin Rustem - bluish-red color abundantly located on the back of the neck and the torso and limbs . Dubinin Ludmila - bluish-gray c / pveta disposed abundantly on the rear and side surfaces of the neck, trunk and extremities . Kolmogorov Zynaida - bluish-purple disposed on the rear surface of the trunk . Zolotarev Semen - purplish-gray color, abundantly located on the back of the neck, trunk and extremities . Tibo Nikolay - purple-green color located on the rear-side surfaces of the thorax, neck and limbs.
What does it mean? Why Vozrozhdenniy in all acts of the MEA wrote the same location of the spots on the cadaver of dead bodies, regardless of the positions, in which they were found? Perhaps, on the bodies it was not simple cadaveric spots, but is written in the JMO could not. The reason for the lack of cadaveric spots on the bodies of the dead might be bleeding of internal organs or blood clotting due to strong radiation.
All these facts are contrary to the media the conclusion that the death of the children was caused by hypothermia and point to signs of poisoning or strong exposure."
Loose-Cannon
18-09-2017 01:18 (GMT)
"After contact with the exposed parts of the body and the respiratory system of radioactive particles of iodine 131 radiation causes severe radiation burns to the skin, the respiratory system and blood, but more likely to suffer with the thyroid gland , which accumulates to 90% of the radioactive substances!
I want to draw your attention to another important fact - the description of the media acts very important body, which from the effects of radioactive iodine (131J) suffers in the first place - the thyroid gland .
In the first group of hikers, whose bodies were discovered in the early days of search operations:
Dyatlov Igor - "... The horns of the hyoid bone intact. The thyroid gland is at the cut fleshy red ...
Kolmogorova Zinaida - "... The hyoid bone is intact. The thyroid gland in the section bluish-red color ... "
Slobodin Rustem - "... The horns of the hyoid bone intact. The thyroid gland is the cut of red ... "
Doroshenko Yury - "... The horns of the hyoid bone intact. The thyroid gland in the fleshy section, reddish ... "
Krivonischenko Georgiy - "... The thyroid gland in the fleshy section, dark-red color. The horns of the hyoid bone intact ... "
The second group of hikers, whose bodies were found in a ravine in the creek, under a 3-meter layer of snow ex.
Kolevatov Alexander - a description of the thyroid gland in the media there is no "... The neck is long, thin, deformed in the area of the thyroid cartilage ...."
Dubinina Lyudmila - description of the thyroid gland in the media there is no "... The neck is long, thin. Soft neck tissue flabby to the touch. When the feeling is determined by the neck unusual mobility of the horns of the hyoid bone and thyroid cartilage . ... "
Zolotarev Semen - a description of the thyroid gland in the media there is no "... The hyoid bone is intact. ... "
Tibo Nikolay - a description of the thyroid gland in the media there is no "... The hyoid bone is intact. ... "
Iodine-like substance, extremely selectively deposited in the thyroid. After hitting 131J in the human body, the radioactivity of thyroid radioactivity may exceed all other tissues of more than 200 times!"
Loose-Cannon
18-09-2017 00:32 (GMT)
#1 He was reported to be 'out of it' and otherwise not interested while on site.
#2 Lack of investigation photos etc
#3 He arrived at the tent AFTER it had beed fubared by in-computation college kids, made an on-the-record report of its state with spicifics, then says that another investigator was there before him so go ask him, the other guys account is very different.
#4 He spent all but 5min at each site.
#5 The rav4 bodies were thoroughly washed with chemicals to hide something
#6 The Aortas were measured, but he never investigated as to why 3 times larger then normal
#7 Nearly every organ of the Rav4 were tested for radiation levels except THE ONE ORGAN that hold the highest concentration.... the thyroid. 200% higher concentration and this isnt 'new' information. He either covered up the results OR he purposely excluded them from the official order. They tested what he asked them to test.... nothing more.
#8 He has been all over the map as to who, what, and why..... wonky at best.
#9 The forensic expert and criminalist expert Churkina refused to sign off on the official autopsy, but Ivanov signed..... AS OF TODAY THE AUTOPSY REPORTS ON RAV4 ARE INVALID!. ALL THREE WERE SUPPOSED TO SIGN!! IVANOV WAS NOT INTERESTED IN THE EXPERTS OPINION AND THE TWO EXPERTS REFUSED TO PUT THEIR NAME ON A BOTCHED REPORT! https://image.ibb.co/dFTBya/sme.jpg
#10 Ivanov made an official report that all 9 hikers had died..... BEFORE THE RAV4 were found!!!!
#11 In 1990 he wrote an article stating that trees had burn marks.... yet THERE HAS NEVER AND WILL NEVER BE ANYTHING ABOUT THAT DOCUMENTED IN THE OFFICIAL REPORTS AND NOTHING OF THE SORT WAS EVER DOCUMENTED>>>>>> GE EITHER BOTCHED THE INVESTIGATION IN 1959, OR HE IS A FREAKING LIAR.... TAKE YOUR PICK.
#12 HE ORDERED A TEAM TO DIG OUT THE TENT AND ITS CONTENTS WITH AN AXE AND SHOVELS AND THEN DRAG THE TENT OVER ROCKS AND ICE TO THE HELICOPTER.... WITHOUT A SINGLE PHOTO BEING TAKEN OF ITS CONTENTS OR THE LAYOUT AND CONDITION PRIOR TO REMOVAL....... ID LIKE TO POP THIS IDIOT IN THE DING-DONG!
#13 He closed the case PREMATURELY!
#14 He didnt solve the case.
Thats off the top of my head and I am SURE there are other!......... Your daddy was a full blown IDIOT or, he intentionally botched, covered, mislead, and otherwise created wild goose chases.
Loose-Cannon
17-09-2017 23:50 (GMT)
And you never hear me talk about Rustems cracked skull because of the freeze expansion possibility.
Loose-Cannon
17-09-2017 23:38 (GMT)
Inhalation of poisonous chems like methanol and radiation poisoning..... Or both
The entire body holds alot of water, but yet the autopsies said nothing about being cooked from the inside out, so you can reasonably rule out microwaves.
Nigel Evans
17-09-2017 23:02 (GMT)
@LC - just give me a list like this :- 1. fact 1 2. fact 2
and so on.
The bodies were frozen solid for many weeks, the expansion of the brain is known to crack skulls. The aorta contains a lot of water (blood) so it will expand a lot. As said before microwaves can heat liquids and make them expand...
Loose-Cannon
17-09-2017 22:41 (GMT)
So help be god Nigel.... you have GOT to get your head out of your royal ass.
AND NOT A SINGLE SHRED OF INTEREST AS TO WHY THEIR AORTAS WERE THREE TIMES THE SIZE THEY SHOULD BE!
Loose-Cannon
17-09-2017 22:38 (GMT)
"To carry out the investigation, the young investigator VI Korotaev. was given a rugged tent, torn by search engines, which was placed in the Lenin room. http://image.ibb.co/mO7xia/pal0.jpg The tent was in terrible condition, with multiple tears and cuts, in some places there were punctured and burned holes, and 2 large pieces of canvas were cut / torn from its side. It is impossible to imagine how it was possible to conduct research on the tent, after it was ruined by search students.
Earlier, I noted that the actions of student search engines who parried the tent and injured her, no one controlled, so for the investigation it was incorrect to investigate the state of the tent in the Lenin room.
Thus, during the study of the tent, as prosecutor Ivdel Tempalov VI claimed, there were no incisions in the tent. However, it is worth noting that on the windy side, ie. from the side of the spur, the tent was torn in the middle part, and, as Tempalov noted, it was brought at first glance by dense snow. This is the only place where Tempalov discovered damages in the tent, which means there were no cuts from which the hikers were escaping from the tent, there was no tent!
Sections and huge holes in the tent on the other side of the spur appeared after Tempalov VI. He examined the tent and instructed the students to collect it and all the things and load it into the helicopter. The tent was frozen to dense snow, so the students cut out and pulled it out of the frozen snow and ice. Then, according to the testimonies of the search engines, the tent dragged to the helicopter to deliver it to Ivdel for research.
Those who saw the tent after the search engine students "worked" with it attributed the cuts made by the search engines to Igor Dyatlov's group. Then, based on this false "fact", a legend was invented that Igor Dyatlov's group cut the tent during its departure.
In fact, the tent was intact and the group left it in an organized manner. Things were all brought into the tent, and the entrance to the tent was closed. The tent itself was not torn by the wind, and only from one side, from the side of the spur, it was pressed down by dense snow, resulting in a large rupture, the reason for the appearance of which just needed to be thoroughly explored ..."
Would ya imagine that!!..... dense snow build on one side pressing down causing a rupture, along comes the students ripping, tearing, shovels and axe!
I said it once, Ill say it again. For all we know they never 'fled in panic' to begin with and its HIGHLY unlikely they were 'observing' anything outside the tent in whiteout conditions.... remember this?? http://image.ibb.co/fsd69F/dtyjdty.jpg
Loose-Cannon
17-09-2017 22:37 (GMT)
"Tempalov photographed the camera and instructed her to disassemble, put things in their backpacks and move them to the camp ... We disassembled a ten-man tent covered with a hard snow with shovels!
According to the former judge of Ivdel in 1959 Novokreschenova GV. Korotaev V.I. said that ... "the tent was covered with snow, and the snow was very hard. I had to use an ax, cut it with an ax and, of course, crippled it."
At the same time, there was no system to free the tent from snow. First they took out a few stale blankets, then buckets, a stove, two or three sacks of biscuits, shoes and other things. Things were stacked in backpacks, and dragged the tent to the search engine camp. Naturally, after such manipulations on the tent, sections and torn pieces could appear."
BINGO..... a complete mishandling of evidence. NOW YOU TELL ME NIGEL... If this tent was flap flap flappin in gale force winds for weeks and a chunk tore back starting at an existing tear/hole OR a student (amateurs first on scene) ripped it open (you admitted they did) and the section was PEALED BACK..... You get after that tent digging it out of hard snow with an AXE AND SHOVEL..... THE CUTS WILL NOW BE ON THE INSIDE OF THE CANVAS THAT WAS PEALED BACK AND COVERED IN SNOW!!!! WOW... Freaking amazeballs!!!
Loose-Cannon
17-09-2017 22:36 (GMT)
" In the tent was impossible to shove; all of it was covered with snow and how things were located it was possible to consider only when digging it. The tent was installed capitally. On the snow was prepared a level platform, on the snow laid skiing surface up, on them the bottom of the tent was already lying. In the tent below were laid quilted jackets (aside from the slope), backpacks empty were laid out on the tent. In the same side of the tent (to the slope) each lay personal things."
Right.... I see whats going on here. The items were removed while DIGGING IT... LIKE WITH A FREAKING SHOVEL!! Talking about eye level cut.... Just what is the shovel-head width comparison to those slits Nigel..... Hmmmmmmm?? Think McFly!
Loose-Cannon
17-09-2017 22:33 (GMT)
"On the second day, search groups were organized, and I with the prosecutor Tempalov and with him a man of up to 10 went to excavate the tent. The tent was discovered on the slope of the peak "1079", 100-150 m from the top to the northeast. At first glance, the tent seemed snowed, but when we looked at it, we saw that the tent on the entrance side held on to the central peg and was well reinforced with ropes. Another of its edges, too, stayed on the wheel, but since The middle of the tent was covered with snow, and the skylights of the tent on the windward side were severely torn, then the edge sank and was under the snow."
You read that?? "skylights of the tent on the windward side were severely torn" WINDWARD SIDE WAS TORN So with all this talk of high ass winds etc and statements like this..... You telling me there is NO CHANCE of the darn tent ripping from flap flap flappin in the winds for WEEKS rubbing on god knows what inside?? I call major BS man, MAJOR BS! And dont give me the "oh there was eyelets cut to watch the BL" horse crap.... you have no clue where, when or why those smaller three horizontal holes were made! I told you.... READ THE DARN DIARIES! For petes sakes.... here it is again!
DIARY OF ZINA
It was much easier to go yesterday without backpacks, snow, snow, snow, snow on the banks froze. rivers snow snow. Lunch was an hour at 4 pm "After dinner I did just one transfer and stopped to rest. I SEWED UP THE TENT. We lay down to sleep. Igor all the time was rude, I just did not recognize him. I had to sleep on the wood near the stove."
This damn tent was riddled with holes and in constant need of sewing repair!!!!! Folding, dragging, wet freeze, unfold, rip, oops.. Its also common to store anchoring gear for the tent folded up with it!
Loose-Cannon
17-09-2017 22:30 (GMT)
"Prosecutor Tempalov VI in the presence of AA Chernyshev. and witnesses examined the tent of hikers, compiled a survey report and photographed the tent after all the "investigative" events held two days earlier by the students.
After such actions the students, of course, the tent lost its original appearance, and the consequence of no trace near the tent could no longer detect. The snow around the tent was strewn with search engines, and the tracks were sprinkled ...
In the report of the inspection of the tent, Tempalov, in particular, noted that the stretches of the tent on the south side were intact, while the stretches of the tent on the north side were torn off and the whole second half of the tent was covered with snow. The tent was installed on a level platform excavated by students, with a windy side it was torn in the middle part. In his testimony, Tempalov did not say a word about the tent sections, because there were no incisions!
Tempalov wrote that in the right corner of the tent near the entrance lay food and a flask empty from alcohol or vodka (the smell was felt) and that he had the impression that the students drank vodka and had a snack. This was the first version and an attempt by the investigative authorities to falsify the cause of the death of hikers.
In the blood of students, alcohol was not detected (methyl alcohol - not alcohol, but poison)."
Loose-Cannon
17-09-2017 22:28 (GMT)
@Nigel... even better
"Above all things lay a ski-slit cut into several pieces, apparently, the northern end of the tent was strengthened on it. Decide on the spoilage of the stick, given that in the group there were no substitutes it is possible only under special circumstances."
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA....... The stick (ski pole) was used as an anchor on the Northern end of the tent!!!! Actually was North West but I digress again!!! THE POINT IS..... NO FREAKING TRIPOD FOR BL VIDEO FOOTAGE. Read the GD case files!!!!!
Loose-Cannon
17-09-2017 22:23 (GMT)
@Nigel... Remember this?
"Under the tent put 8 pairs of skis down attachments. Thanks to the dense snow cover, the tent was installed very firmly. Everything is covered with already clammy snow, except for the southern skate, fortified on a ski pole and tied for a pair of skis. Under the northern ridge there was no stick."
And you thought it was a fancy field expedient tripod for the undercover KGB fancy high speed/low drag futuristic camera thats waterproofed with special BL lenses !!!
wrong wrong wrong..... just admit that you were WRONG!!
Nigel Evans
17-09-2017 22:09 (GMT)
@LC - "I already gave you like 6 examples of how he fubared the investigation. Whether it be on purpose, because he is a moron, or both. You didnt even let me get to the thyroid gland crap!!!! "
Try giving them to me again, might have missed them before (rolls eyes).
Nigel Evans
17-09-2017 21:48 (GMT)
@Lyndasez - "How about a moose used them as footpath post mortem?! ... " Because the pathologist would have spotted the lack of internal bleeding with the two chest fractures (unless he's lying as per coverup). The internal bleeding gives him a rough time as to how long they lived after the trauma. LD circa 15min, SZ longer. Incidentally that fits with the transfer of clothing from LD to SZ. Assuming the autopsy is genuine then they died of those injuries. But if they wanted to hide the cause of death, why not wait until the summer? They'd come back to find just skeletons spread all over the mountain by predators. What are they going to measure that isn't known? I don't think you're factoring the high winds and cold, it's a tough place to look for a needle in a haystack. Also Ivanov came on the scene late after they'd fired the first guy. By then any evidence had been recorded or lost.
Lyndasez
17-09-2017 21:15 (GMT)
"Q. Why do it if they knew where the bodies were buried?" @Nigel, They were in no hurry to investigate, you've done more indepth work on your BL theory. They used no measuring tools at the scene, probed with ski poles, were seriously lacking in investigative photos, compromised evidence, cutting it..on and on. Then fed preposterous theories and disinformation.
They tossed out things like some super force crushed bones without surface bruising...
How about a moose used them as footpath post mortem?! ...
Loose-Cannon
17-09-2017 20:57 (GMT)
Hillary Clinton says Trump supporters are carrying water for the Kremlin....... I WANT MY DAMN CHECK ALREADY!!! (bat in hand)
Lyndasez
17-09-2017 20:54 (GMT)
"- isn't it normal for KGB cases, something like 60 years?"
@Nigel, haha, Yes, indeed, my friend and why do you think that is? They're probably data-mining this sites info to see what sticks!
Loose-Cannon
17-09-2017 20:52 (GMT)
"give me your case for a coverup. What are the facts?"
I already gave you like 6 examples of how he fubared the investigation. Whether it be on purpose, because he is a moron, or both.
You didnt even let me get to the thyroid gland crap!!!!
Nigel Evans
17-09-2017 20:51 (GMT)
@Lyndasez - the case against a coverup is the fact.... that they spent so much money investigating it. Q. Why do it if they knew where the bodies were buried? A. Because they didn't and they had concerns wrt defection. That's why they couldn't wait until the summer and go back for the skeletons. They just didn't know what had happened.
Nigel Evans
17-09-2017 20:45 (GMT)
@Lyndasez - isn't it normal for KGB cases, something like 60 years?
KMM
17-09-2017 20:40 (GMT)
Nigel Evans 17-09-2017 20:14 (GMT) Lyndasez - give me your case for a coverup. What are the facts?
Nigel is asking for facts ? strange, he argues BL without any facts
Lyndasez
17-09-2017 20:36 (GMT)
" give me your case for a coverup. What are the facts."
@Nigel, "According to ex-governor of the Sverdlovsk region, Senator Eduard Rossel, the tragedy on the Dyatlov Pass still remains strictly classified information." Pravda.Ru 08.14.2017
Nigel Evans
17-09-2017 20:14 (GMT)
Lyndasez - give me your case for a coverup. What are the facts?
Lyndasez
17-09-2017 19:51 (GMT)
@Nigel, Who?! I'm pretty new, not up to speed on all the info! However, if you think some cover-up isn't involved, I've got a bridge to sell you!
Nigel Evans
17-09-2017 19:41 (GMT)
@Lyndasez - groan not that Rakitin rubbish.
Lyndasez
17-09-2017 19:20 (GMT)
@Anna, Oh, absolutely! ...and not just 1959. Ivanov would probably say: "Watch out! There's a Yeti behind you," whilst he pickpockets your wallet! Red herrings ..left an right!
"Investigator Ivanov was not too lazy to get the number of the newspaper "Tagilsky Rabochiy" dated February 18, 1959, which - for a minute! - was not sold in Sverdlovsk and cut out a note about an unusual celestial phenomenon. The investigator did not leave any explanations for his manipulations in the case, thus allowing the interested parties to independently puzzle over the hidden logic of his behavior."
Anna Yordanova
17-09-2017 18:58 (GMT)
@Lindasez.Lets not forget that we are talking about 1959,the time when the Communist party was everything in the former Soviet union. The people had to do whatever the Party wanted them to do.
Lyndasez
17-09-2017 18:18 (GMT)
"There is no evidence at all that they went there to photograph the lights.Your assumptions that Zolotarev as a secret spy went on a mission to investigate them also don`t have any proof.We all can speculate,but we have to adhere to the facts and make conclusions only based on them."
@Anna Yordanova, you are correct! Unfortunately the lead investigator, this knucklehead, Ivanov is a student of Russian cover-up and an disinformation. He pretty much threw out the rule book and did everything he shouldn't, if he did anything, based on accounts I've read. Facts are few and far between...
Nigel Evans
17-09-2017 17:50 (GMT)
@Lyndasez - agreed, just giving you the full story from the DPI foundation.
Lyndasez
17-09-2017 17:44 (GMT)
" the edges of the frames could be clearly seen."
Nigel, You neglected to add, "under a powerful microscope."
Like I said, without me seeing the entire negative, it's difficult to determine.. the key is, are we looking at a negative (unprocessed film) or positive (processed) true image.
Nigel Evans
17-09-2017 17:09 (GMT)
@Lyndasez - the edges of the frames could be clearly seen.
Nigel Evans
17-09-2017 17:05 (GMT)
It gets better (not). Reading more from McClosky's book the evidence is that SZ used that camera for recreational shots on previous days...
Lyndasez
17-09-2017 16:51 (GMT)
So sorry about that repetitive post! Kept saying "verification invalid," till I saw the misspelled name!
Lyndasez
17-09-2017 16:49 (GMT)
"It would be good to see the a picture of the original negs, should resolve the exposed/unexposed question?"
@Nigel, the film, if it contained actual photos, to me, they've been ruined (over-exposed) this is based on the few snippets of them posted, if that's any comfort.
@Loose Cannon, thanks for sharing those sweet finds, awesome work!
Lyndsez
17-09-2017 16:48 (GMT)
"It would be good to see the a picture of the original negs, should resolve the exposed/unexposed question?"
@Nigel, the film, if it contained actual photos, to me, they've been ruined (over-exposed) this is based on the few snippets of them posted, if that's any comfort.
@Loose Cannon, thanks for sharing those sweet finds, awesome work!
Lyndsez
17-09-2017 16:48 (GMT)
"It would be good to see the a picture of the original negs, should resolve the exposed/unexposed question?"
@Nigel, the film, if it contained actual photos, to me, they've been ruined (over-exposed) this is based on the few snippets of them posted, if that's any comfort.
@Loose Cannon, thanks for sharing those sweet finds, awesome work!
Nigel Evans
17-09-2017 16:46 (GMT)
@LC - "Never did I state it was a smart decision" Got that right. Based on this they had already gone too far west with the 31 Jan camp/labaz.
Soooo, on the 30th jan they were already commiting to this change of plan even though ID had his doubts about it.... I'm seeing a purpose to all of this...
Nigel Evans
17-09-2017 16:37 (GMT)
@LC - "A huge chunk? of your theory just vaporized before our eyes regarding your holy grail three balls bs." Dream on...
Nigel Evans
17-09-2017 16:35 (GMT)
@Lyndasez - i couldn't comment that's too technical. Apparently these negs have been handed over to the DPI foundation by Ivanov's daughter. It would be good to see the a picture of the original negs, should resolve the exposed/unexposed question?
Loose-Cannon
17-09-2017 16:32 (GMT)
"I'm simply following in Ivanov's footsteps. In a Court of Law they use the term "balance of probabilities". If that's good enough for putting people in jail, it's good enough for trying to solve the DPI"
Flowing Ivanov.... A full blown idiot. AND HE DIDN'T SOLVE THE CASE. but I guess neither will you, so its fitting. What kinda kangaroo court you guys have over there anyhow??!?
You act as though BL is the only theory with evidence whatever.... THE BL THEORY IS 100% BASED ON FALSE FACTS AND CONJECTURE. IT IS NO BETTER THEN ANY OTHER THEORY. And THAT is a fact.
A huge chunk? of your theory just vaporized before our eyes regarding your holy grail three balls bs. Your already doubling down. Wow
Loose-Cannon
17-09-2017 16:25 (GMT)
Apparently there was no Weatherbug app at the time.....lol. Never did I state it was a smart decision, but I also do not have a habit of construing facts to fit a narrative. I do not know of any way Igor could have known the weather future on the other side of a ridge days beforehand. In addition, there is a seldomly seen photo of them in perfect weather traversing the back side of the ridge.... But your not interested in that sorta stuff now are ya my little buddy. It is also said that Igor and the bunch would have loved to practice their skills and earn a certain level of bragging rights by digging in under those conditions and altitude.
Left late.... Did you bother to see when they stopped the delay before or take in account how tired they were, OR how long it takes to setup the tent etc the night before and the morning after? Nope.... Completely blinded by AL contributing factors. Your only going to see what you want to see. You cannot be helped... Its like a disease.
Remember, we don't need make a theory fit or explain your BL false facts. Example... When someone says 'they were murdered', you say 'how does murder explain the three heads exposure'. Complete nonsense.
Lyndasez
17-09-2017 16:21 (GMT)
(@Lyndasez - i'm not a photography expert but googling say ""35mm sprocket holes" i can find images were the whole film including sprocket holes has been exposed. Hence i assume it is camera dependent some will limit the frame to between the holes some won't. So a good point but inconclusive?)
@Nigel, that is manipulated film. Examples:
?... convert your Lubitel+ into a 35mm machine with the included “Lubikin” set – allowing you to snap vertical panoramic images with exposed sprocket holes.?
16mm film fed through a 35mm gate (so you can see the sprocket holes in the film) on a Sony film scanner, hand-cranked for variance in speed.
Kodak Brownie Target Six-16 with expired roll of 35mm Kodak Portra 160NC. I thought I would shoot sprocket hole photos with this camera rather than respooling 120 film...
The process is pretty easy -- just cushion the roll of 35mm with foam, customize your 120 take up spool with some format reducing rubber bands, and tape the heck out of the camera. A general rule of thumb when winding between shots is to go 34 clicks. Frame spacing will be tight at the beginning of the roll, and then you'll have gaps as you get towards the end. Nicolai over at Photon Detector has an excellent winding chart for getting more even frame spacing and being efficient with your film. Some people even tape a winding chart to the back of the camera. Just cross out each exposure as you go. And if you're tired of carrying a changing bag to unwind your 35mm film in complete darkness, Randy over at Holgamods sells a 35mm Holga conversion that allows you to rewind the film in the camera. I can't wait to do some sprocket Holga night photography!
Nigel Evans
17-09-2017 16:11 (GMT)
@Anna - there's not enough evidence to support any of the theories without adding conjecture. I'm simply following in Ivanov's footsteps. In a Court of Law they use the term "balance of probabilities". If that's good enough for putting people in jail, it's good enough for trying to solve the DPI.
Nigel Evans
17-09-2017 16:02 (GMT)
@LC - Sooooo, because they're falling behind schedule.... they leave late and make a short trip to the ridge in virtual whiteout conditions from high winds.... Hmmm. presumably they had checked on the internet to confirm that tomorrows weather was good and they could make good time skiing downhill. Otherwise if the weather was bad then they'd be better off in the forest?
You see if i was there i'd be saying something like, "Guys and girls, we've got to get up early and have a big hike today staying in the forest where the trees will negate any whiteout from the high winds, that way we can catch up on the plan.".
Anna Yordanova
17-09-2017 15:56 (GMT)
@Nigel.There is no evidence at all that they went there to photograph the lights.Your assumptions that Zolotarev as a secret spy went on a mission to investigate them also don`t have any proof.We all can speculate,but we have to adhere to the facts and make conclusions only based on them.
Loose-Cannon
17-09-2017 15:43 (GMT)
Thats all you have... Really??
Its a well known little fact they were behind schedule and taking that slight deviation would have kept them out of the deep snow and harder to traverse wooded areas of the lowland. This kept them in open terrain and the following day would be mostly down-hill. It also cut the corner off the route which would additionally make up some time. This isn't rocket science Nigel.... No conspiracy required.
Nigel Evans
17-09-2017 15:15 (GMT)
@LC - "Zero evidence what so ever..... completely fabricated conjecture. "
The last entry in the diary (by the group leader) strongly supports the view that they were deviating from the planned route through the forest to use the ridge instead. So there's a piece of evidence = FACT 1. FACT 2 = this decision would involve significant discomfort as the stove couldn't be used. Plus there was risk from such an exposed camp. Very high winds etc as ID indicates in his entry.
So we have two FACTS that support the theory that they chose the ridge even though it would be uncomfortable and potentially unsafe.
So now all it takes is to find the unstated motive for this decision. I opt for photographing the lights. You are welcome to posit another theory (good luck).
Zero evidence what so ever..... completely fabricated conjecture. I have also proven without a doubt Ivanov couldn't distinguish his ass from a hole in the ground.
"there was a light there that night and there is a group of photos from several cameras that could support this"
'Perhaps', but unfortunately that light (if even accurate report) could have literally been..... anything and is in no way shape or form proof or evidence thats what killed 9 people. What other pics are we to believe caught BL now? What 'group'?
Nigel Evans
17-09-2017 14:18 (GMT)
@LC - nothing i've said changes my overall view. The three heads is still of interest but not as thought. I'm just recognising a mistake.
It would be good to know the magnification used on the Eagle1 photo as that's a key piece of evidence as it matches the meteorologists report, as is that Ivanov records in that interview that a light was seen near Otorten the night of Feb 1-2.
Whether Ivanov believed in fairies/aliens/yeti isn't important to the BL theory, what's important is that he can see that they went there to photograph a light, there was a light there that night and there is a group of photos from several cameras that could support this (but agreed there's ambiguity).
Still looking good for the BL theory imo .
Loose-Cannon
17-09-2017 13:46 (GMT)
On a different note...
I have downloaded likely hundreds of photos. Mainly of the actual diaries, and the kids 'official papers' if anyone would like my to upload a particular diary, or someones documents to my photosharing, and post them here... just let me know.
In addition, I came across several pictures of the group members bot before and during that I doubt everyone has seen.... if interested
Oh, quality color scans of the tent fabric file also.
Loose-Cannon
17-09-2017 13:42 (GMT)
"The effect of the lights made him fearful and his instinct told him not to look at them."
The interview I read.... he was scared shitless.
"For me the important point is that he (as the police detective on the case looking at all the evidence) connected the DPI with fireballs"
Nigel... you have ONE biased book 'hinting' at this, while on the other hand ALL other reports have him in clearly the Alien category. I know this book must have had a profound effect on you, but you just have to let it go. Come into the light and back down to earth... no more tunnel vision, no more 'BL does it all' fantasy. Right now your in a state of denial, this denial is self evident by a continuation of mentality doubling-down on a false narrative in efforts re-convince your own self conscious.
Nigel.... I dont 'need' to tell you I told you so, but on a positive note, I hope you have learned a valuable lesson, can come away from this more open to ideas, and willing to actually look into other possibilities in equal to BL.
This falling apart of the three heads crap is only one part of several wonky aspects of the BL theory that dont hold water. Believe me, I wish it were as easy to definitively conclude it was BL so I can go on with researching something else and may there be some closure to those involved, but this may never be so.
Nigel Evans
17-09-2017 09:51 (GMT)
@KMM - there's conflicting evidence here, but why is it important? For me the important point is that he (as the police detective on the case looking at all the evidence) connected the DPI with fireballs, not his beliefs in their composition/source. He was a police detective not a physicist.
KMM
17-09-2017 09:19 (GMT)
From Nigel's OWN POST
Lev Ivanov, followed the extra-terrestrial line of explanation. Most policemen tend to be hard-nosed types who have seen it all by the time they have reached the end of a long career in the police and Ivanov had probably seen his share of the worst of human nature in a large city like Sverdlovsk. He could have stuck with one of the more non-contentious theories such as an avalanche, with regards to the Dyatlov deaths, but he chose to keep to the line of them being killed by something out of this world.
Nigel Evans
17-09-2017 08:52 (GMT)
Note - "Yury also said that both he himself and Valentin Rudkovsky had felt very tired and sleepy for days after their encounters with the lights."
Support there for my "debilitating force" theory wrt the returning three. They got it stronger.
Nigel Evans
17-09-2017 08:21 (GMT)
@Lyndasez - i'm not a photography expert but googling say ""35mm sprocket holes" i can find images were the whole film including sprocket holes has been exposed. Hence i assume it is camera dependent some will limit the frame to between the holes some won't. So a good point but inconclusive?
Just came across something very odd.... there was apparently a young man named Victor Nikitin that was buried with them and his documents are here with the Dyatlov group. :/
Going just the pics of the SZ film posted here. I'm pretty convinced this roll of film wasn't used. As you can see, from LCs posts of negatives once used there is a clear difference where picture is and sprocket line. This is not true with SZs negs it's all one value. Looks like whole roll was exposed and the emulsion degraded in spots.
Loose-Cannon
17-09-2017 03:20 (GMT)
omg... all their personal 'documents'. Ill be copying photos for hours.
Loose-Cannon
17-09-2017 02:35 (GMT)
Found all sorts of photos rarely seen from their cameras, and I thought I seen them all!.... and pics of each diary etc.
Ok.... I had to do some minor hacking to get theses pics. They were NOT permitted to be copied via regular methods, so I had to extract the page source in html!
Are you ready?.......
Loose-Cannon
17-09-2017 00:55 (GMT)
"Those negatives were magnified 30X to get the little white dots to even show up"
Oh for the love of Sam Houston!!!!
KMM
17-09-2017 00:49 (GMT)
Those negatives were magnified 30X to get the little white dots to even show up
If memory serves me correctly from reading the russian forum. There is no doubt it was the last exposure on one of the cameras film roll and its a basically unanimous consensus this was produced in the photo lab when clicking the shutter on loaded exposure. They would have had to snap the shutter before winding up the roll and opening it up.
They have pics the original negs....... Ill try and find them.
KMM
16-09-2017 23:48 (GMT)
EDIT: L.I. IVANOV
Loose-Cannon
16-09-2017 23:48 (GMT)
Ivanov was a full blown retard. Nuff said!
Loose-Cannon
16-09-2017 23:44 (GMT)
"not sure of your point?"
One moment your talking about the super top secret BL watching expedition where the gov 'just had' to have a group of kids get the USSR KGB internal state spy into the backwoods and there "There was no clear reason to be afraid of the lights"
NOW, your referencing the 'guy in the open pit mine' light in the sky report. Im sure you read the part about how he basically shit his pants because it was soooo terrifying .....
Im just wondering which it is.... Shit a volvo turn your hair white terrifying, or pet Johns pluffy kitty kitty innocent no reason to fear?
Nigel Evans
16-09-2017 23:42 (GMT)
@LC - Understand your point but EITHER you'd have to get hold of the "The Way of Lenin" article and translate it.. OR trust a Russian journalist who quotes from the article...
Loose-Cannon
16-09-2017 23:34 (GMT)
Nigel.. you really need to stop reading these crap books by know-it-alls that only want to profit off of the poor victims death. All your reading is an opinion thats biased. Think for yourself!! These people inject all kinds of their own crap making it difficult to discern fact from fiction. Like your other fav book did with the Ivanov UFO part..... Ill bet ya the author added a little somethin somethin to the statement.... as if the author was "clarifying" what Ivanov said which in reality did not exist.
So looks like i've got to backtrack here Not taken from inside the tent...
KMM
16-09-2017 23:18 (GMT)
SURE wish there was an "EDIT" button, i wouldn't have to post as much
KMM
16-09-2017 23:14 (GMT)
Same as they show here, labeled as SZ's, and other sites
Loose-Cannon
16-09-2017 23:01 (GMT)
Fairly certain there was no shovel in the den...
Loose-Cannon
16-09-2017 22:56 (GMT)
KMM... just saw your message. Replied
KMM
16-09-2017 22:53 (GMT)
Their labeled as .jpg but photos of the negatives
Kmm
16-09-2017 22:50 (GMT)
Appendix 1: Table of Examination of NEGATIVES from Dyatlov Group Cameras
Loose-Cannon
16-09-2017 22:48 (GMT)
"suggests it's not easy to determine who's camera took what"
Yes, as far as the other cameras are concerned, but SZs was the only one specifically labeled when found and investigated. Also, the Russian forum dedicated to the DPI, they clearly have them the others figured out and sectioned.
So you ARE looking at the SZ specific negs...
^^^^^^ SEE^^^^^^^^ Its called integrity!
Loose-Cannon
16-09-2017 22:01 (GMT)
"Probably in the den when it collapsed (and dragged out) or thrown by an explosion."
I think it would have been more of a shift, but meh. The position they were found looks relative to their injuries.
Loose-Cannon
16-09-2017 21:56 (GMT)
"@LC - seems fine for me, maybe try again? It's just a vid of the Sex Pistols playing your favourite track..."
It literally says "not avail in your country"
Anywho...... they stink. God saved my ears!!!
@Lyndasez You make a great point! NO LIGHT SOURCE!
Lyndasez
16-09-2017 21:34 (GMT)
Nigel, I'm looking at the photo section on this site at your "light" photos. It says they're negatives not contacts. From my experience with developing negs, whatever is light, converts to dark when developed a on contact sheet..
KMM
16-09-2017 21:30 (GMT)
Well, IDK. Robot from 3 yrs ago has those photo's from SZ camera to back up his theory
Nigel Evans
16-09-2017 21:07 (GMT)
@LC - seems fine for me, maybe try again? It's just a vid of the Sex Pistols playing your favourite track...
@KMM - i don't think you need maths to quantify the probablities, qualitative will do just fine. All the scenarios have a low probability. One of them has photograph
@Lyndasez - the rav4 were found just a few meters from the den. Probably in the den when it collapsed (and dragged out) or thrown by an explosion.
Nigel Evans
16-09-2017 20:11 (GMT)
@Lyndasez - don't know anything about a shovel?
Lyndasez
16-09-2017 20:05 (GMT)
Nigel, Yes, that makes more sense, it constructed beforehand...however someone brought clothes from the others there, but didn't stay...was the shovel theirs? (If you know) thanks
Nigel Evans
16-09-2017 20:00 (GMT)
@Lyndasez - i think it's accepted the twigs are seats. Imo the den would have been covered - snow cave. S. Oss wonders if the den was previously constructed by mansi hunters as the floor is very well prepared.
@KMM - i don't think you need maths to quantify the probablities, qualitative will do just fine. All the scenarios have a low probability. One of them has photographs...
Loose-Cannon
16-09-2017 19:48 (GMT)
@LC - yes, are you American?
I thought so. GOD SAVE THE QUEEN!!
Yes, TX ..... usmc vet.
KMM
16-09-2017 19:40 (GMT)
Nigel Evans 16-09-2017 19:13 (GMT) @KMM - ask your son Happy
I called him last night to ask about arguing "probabilities" with you. He said i could but it would take a lot of time, math, backed up with sources, etc....
Lyndasez
16-09-2017 19:32 (GMT)
The den the RAV4 dug out really puzzles me. They dug what looks in excess of a 9ft x9ft 3 sided shelter, twigs for a fire, no one is found in it. There is shreds clothes from a couple of the dead and a shovel?! Who had the presence of mind to take a shovel...and leave flashlights behind, they dug this in the darkness?? Something took after them there as well? ...
Nigel Evans
16-09-2017 19:13 (GMT)
@KMM - ask your son
KMM
16-09-2017 18:56 (GMT)
Nigel Evans 16-09-2017 18:21 (GMT) @KMM - "your BL theory has company:" Now you're just taking the piss Happy
Maybe so, but don't you think SZ's photo's fit that theory also ?
Nigel Evans
16-09-2017 18:53 (GMT)
@LC - yes, are you American?
Loose-Cannon
16-09-2017 18:33 (GMT)
Nigel... Are you British?
Nigel Evans
16-09-2017 18:21 (GMT)
@KMM - "your BL theory has company:" Now you're just taking the piss
KMM
16-09-2017 18:11 (GMT)
Here Nigel, your BL theory has company: Robot 3 years ago ""I have thought of the unfortunate and unexplained deaths of these students for some time and as Spock said in Star Trek – quoted from Sherlock Holmes “… when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth…” I originally thought that it may have been the Russian Army with concussion bombs that were dropped on them by accident. The Army had used this location for secret tests. Some mention that the Army secretly arrived at the crime scene 1 week before the rescuers found the bodie. This could answer a few of the mysteries but not all! Why their tent was on the side of the mountain and not logically down at the tree line for shelter and fire wood? The Army could have moved the tent up the mountain to change the crime scene. Why there was radioactive material on some of the clothing and why they were not wearing any protective clothes for the harsh climate? The Army could have changed their clothes and confiscated clothing which showed being radioactive. Though all good explanations, I do believe there is only one explanation that holds up to all the facets of this case! Yeti or Abominable Snow Man - Encounter! On research I found that the small tent used was not their main tent. They had left supplies at a base camp and were using this very small tent for an excursion. What was their purpose for climbing the Ural mountain range? I googled Russian news broadcast for the past year (1958) and found an interesting account of Yeti encounters on this range. That year a number of local Mansi tribe people disappeared. After an investigation, the Russian Government banned all further reporting on the Yeti with threats of incarceration. These students may have been acting as investigating reporters and photographers and needed a cover to conceal their true purpose. The one person they added to their close group was a guide familiar with the territory. A note on a printed paper in their possession was scribbled “From now on we know that the snow men exist”. Although they used guns to protect themselves in the wilderness for previous trips (pictures show), they did not carry any this time in case they were stopped and questioned. Whatever attacked them in their tent did not bite or claw but had extreme power to crush. A similar attack at Yale BC in the 1800’s by some gold miners who claimed to have captured a baby Sasquatch and in Washington State 1920’s of an attack: http://www.bigfootlives.com/ ... In 1946 Cultus Lake BC a newlywed couple disappeared from their cabin with only large footprints found surrounding the cabin. Case Scenario The illogical pitching of their tent in the open rather than down at the tree line may have been due to a scare from the locals at the last settlement. Towns’ people warned them about reindeer having been found dead in this area. They may have felt more secure making camp in the open rather than down within the trees. After setting up camp they would have taken off their boots and put their heavy outer wear outside to dry. Due to the limited space within the tent they more than likely stored this gear along with their skies and pack sacks in the overhang where the chimney exits. They then entered the tent using their long johns and tent slippers inside and had supper. Shortly after supper, two of the men went outside to urinate (documented) with a flashlight, which they left on the roof of the tent (documented) and a lighter and cigarettes to have a smoke. It was written in their diary that the women did not want them smoking in the hotel rooms or tent. While outside they were attacked and forced to flee down to the forest for cover. There they built a fire for warmth, to notify the others and to keep any predators away. On hearing the commotion outside the tent, 3 of the students with a flashlight went to help and were also attacked. Unable to reach their outerwear at the back of the tent they too fled down the mountain. The Yeti then centered their attack on the 4 remaining students left in the tent. The Yeti being unable to open the tent door or cut through began to pound on the center of the tent while the students inside sliced their knives back through the tent in defense. It’s been reported that Yeti can use sticks and may have poked through the open slits of the tent with one of the ski poles as it was documented that numerous knife cuts were found on one of the ski poles. The Yeti attack temporarily stopped when they saw the fire down at the tree line and the 3 students heading towards it with the flashlight (documented and found on this trail still in the on position). It has been reported that the Yeti are not afraid of fire or light. The Yeti then caught the 3 students before they could reach the tree line. Yeti use their large powerful arms to club and then bear hug their quarry until subdued and unconscious, all similar injuries reported on the students. Forensic Investigators state that when a body is suffocated the blood does not pool back to the organs, but stays at the extremities. The discoloring of the skin seen on the students at their funeral could have been caused by this injury. Seeing that the fire was attracting the Yeti the 2 students at the tree tried to frantically put it out, it was reported that one of these student’s hands were burnt by this action. Next they proceeded to climb a tree. The report claimed they had climbed the tree to observe if their tent was still there to return to. The problem with this statement is that it was after sunset, in winter, in Russia. I googled if there was a full moon that night and it shows that there was no moon visible, so it would have been pitch dark. The only reason to climb a tree at night would be to try and elude a predator. Sasquatches have been reported with the ability to climb trees. One of the students was found a few hundred feet from the tree still clutching a branch, as though he had been dragged down from the tree. When the remaining 4 students of the group did arrive at the tree, they found their companions dead. They proceeded to remove what clothing they could to keep warm rather than return to their tent and what was back there. They then went to a ravine and dug a snow cave for shelter. Unfortunately the Yeti were waiting for them in the forest and pursued them, cornering them at the ravine some short distance away. One problem with the Yeti theory is that no foot prints were ever found. The explanation is that it was sometime after the encounter, in winter, in a valley known for wind. The Yeti/Sasquatch have a very large bipedal foot, much like a “Bear Paw Snow Shoe” which leaves a very flat shallow print. These prints could easily have disappeared with weather conditions. The final explanation may be the hardest to believe and that is - Why have no further sightings or findings been made of Yeti in this location? With all of our technologies, these mountains and the world in general have become a lot smaller, but the Universe is immense and unknown. There were unexplained lights in the sky seen by other observers. Strange creatures have been reported all over the world with similar globe light occurrences (Kentucky Goblin Encounter,Chupacabras, Ogopogo, Lochness Monster, and other such things). Many documented encounters with Sasquatch have been reported with similar globe lights seen around their vicinity. Could it be that there are time portals throughout the Universe and these creatures accidentally pass through them? One such strange occurrence happened in Manila in 1593 where a guard was suddenly transported to Mexico City. http://www.psychic101.com/teleportation-learn.html
Could UFO’s seen in the area be trying to relocate these Yetis back to their rightful locations? Could a nuclear blast such as the 1957-58 Russian accidental nuclear explosion at Kyshtym ( just a few miles south of Oblast Swerdlowsk where these students were) cause a rip in our universe? This accident reportedly killed 1000’s of people and contaminated a 100 square kilometer area with high level radiation. Could the radiation on their clothing have come from physical contact with these entities ?
KMM
16-09-2017 18:07 (GMT)
Hard to get any CLEAR DEFINED answers from you. So your saying those photos were leaked ? on the record
Nigel Evans
16-09-2017 17:59 (GMT)
@KMM - that's it? That's all you got? This is just getting toooooo easy.
KMM
16-09-2017 17:49 (GMT)
However we are discussing these pictures because you said that the burden was one me to prove they are real. I have shown that many of those images are supported by independent witness statements and recent visits to the DP for which you have no answer (don't blame you btw). The supporting evidence for these images is way above coincidence. Here is this photo again, Its surely evidence of UFOs, ball lightning, OH WAIT, ITS A LIGHT BULB ! https://www.wired.com/2014/08/wtf-just-happened-shoot-the-moon/
Nigel Evans
16-09-2017 17:43 (GMT)
@LC - "BINGO!!! ITS ALL BS". Something profound in that, somehow defines you. Can't think why...
@KMM - "WHY ARE WE EVEN SEEING THEM?" Very good point, as i understand they have been made avaialable (leaked?) to one of the key DPI players in Russia who was part of the original rescue team many years after the fact who has made them available on the internet. - http://www.dyatlov-pass-incident.com/valentin-yakimenkos-study-groups-negatives/ . It may be Ivanov never saw them.. There is the chance of fakery here of course. However we are discussing these pictures because you said that the burden was one me to prove they are real. I have shown that many of those images are supported by independent witness statements and recent visits to the DP for which you have no answer (don't blame you btw). The supporting evidence for these images is way above coincidence.
Loose-Cannon
16-09-2017 17:40 (GMT)
Again, here the thread is consumed with the horse-crap already spewed and denounced MANY TIMES over. We know what you think happened..... Can we hear something new, or from someone else please? Perhaps a different idea then Nigels?
Raitelis
16-09-2017 17:36 (GMT)
Following up on my earlier comments....if indeed those that didn't freeze to death were finished off by members of the Mansi...it is interesting to note...most if not all of these individuals suffered some form of skull fracture...that is exactly what You would expect if these victims were first rendered unconscious by a stout blow to the head...the remaining injuries could have then been inflicted on alive but unconscious victims...you can ask the question, "If the Mansi did it, what tools were available to them at the crime scene to inflict these injuries...it easy to answer w/ the possible exception of the crushing injuries...on that one it's also easy to figure out though...an impact force isn't the only way to create a crushing injury..weight will do much the same thing...like the weight of a horse for example...they could easily have sat a horse down on the unconscious individual and squashed them...no enormously strong snowmen, alien or Russian bomb plot is needed..as far as hiding their tracks..hopefully no one puts that technique beyond the ability of these truly expert survivalist/outdoorsman that the Mansi were at that time...the evidence tells the story...just need to go where the facts lead...leave out the aliens, snowmen, Russian bombs etc...Case Closed? !
Loose-Cannon
16-09-2017 17:30 (GMT)
"Compare it with the report from a highly credible witness in the same period.
The meteorologist, Tokareva, gives the most detailed description of the fireball: To the Director of the Ivdel Police Department 15.03.59: At 6:50 local time a comet was seen in the sky. The tail was similar to that of dense cirrus clouds. Then the star became free from the tail, became brighter, and flew away. It began gradually to swell and became a large ball surrounded in mist. Inside this ball a star began to burn, from which, first, a crescent was formed, and then an entire ball, but not as bright. The large ball began to fade and became like a blur. It disappeared at 7:05. The star moved from the south to the northeast.
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (pp. 100-101). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
Now if anyone wants to contest the similarity of the above then they need to ask themselves are they being ridiculous..."
Sooo..... a BL report at a dif time and area. AWESOME! Now, how does this prove a fireball killed the group?
Ill make it easy for you.... it DOESN'T
Loose-Cannon
16-09-2017 17:24 (GMT)
"one goes above the sprocket advance line"
BINGO!!! ITS ALL BS
"Don't think there's an easy way to resolve that one."
No Nigel.... its clearly out out of the exposure area entirely.
@Raitelis "2. Something caused the hikers to cut thru their tent" Not judging by the actual case files.... There is plenty of evidence suggesting the search crew dug out the tent and its contents with an axe and shovels which cut the canvas on the inside surface when flaps WHERE PEALED BACK making the inside....now facing outward.
"Mansi likely argued w/ the hikers in order to keep them out of a Sacred area"
Pretty sure it is NOT a sacred area.
KMM
16-09-2017 17:21 (GMT)
@KMM - "Sounds like a capitulation" wise decision on your part !
If that damaged film is so important why didn't the OFFICIAL investigation pay any attention to it? WHY ARE WE EVEN SEEING THEM? If they were taken by a KGB agent, on a SECRET MISSION, (while getting 8 others killed) WHY aren't they locked away somewhere in some secret archive?
awaiting your next "could of been, might of happened this way"
Nigel Evans
16-09-2017 16:38 (GMT)
@Raitelis - if they were getting scared by sounds of snowmen you don't think they would prepare like getting their boots on and having axes and knives ready to take outside? Whatever it was that scared them gave them no warning.
Raitelis
16-09-2017 16:14 (GMT)
Key Points: 1. The hikers got into an intense argument w/ members of the Mansi. 2. Something caused the hikers to cut thru their tent 3. Something caused the hikers the flee the safety of the tent quickly, without even much clothing.. Theory...the Mansi likely argued w/ the hikers in order to keep them out of a Sacred area....even warning them of snowmen...indeed one of the hikers may have made a passing reference to Snowmen being real, possibly indicating they were being shadowed...likely by Mansi....on the night of the incident Mansi began making loud and weird seemingly inhuman sounds..trying to impersonate snowmen...this caused the hikers to cut holes in the tent to see what was making the sounds...as the sounds grew closer, louder and more threatening some or even most of the hikers panicked and ran for it...as they regrouped... one of them climbed a tree to see if they was really anything out there even as others began to freeze to Death..the few that survived after taking the clothes of the recently dead were finished off by the Mansi ..remember the Mansi aren't stupid...they made the murders look consistent w/ their own legends of Snowmen attacks...this is especially obvious w/ the removal of the tongue of one of the girls..something even modern Mansi are quick to point out...is the signature of a snowman attack...this fits the core facts of the case...there are other aspects of this case that have been added later that are likely fictional add ons...Case Solved??
Nigel Evans
16-09-2017 15:50 (GMT)
@Lyndasez - the bunker has been mentioned before by Anna, it's relevance to the DPI depends very much on it's age of course. Could be there for advanced ball lightning research.. Or i could have just made that up...
One man's blurred object is anothers emulsion degradation? Don't think there's an easy way to resolve that one.
Lyndasez
16-09-2017 15:23 (GMT)
I just came across this. I'm going to leave it here for anyone who didn't see it to peruse. Interesting, underground bunker 6 miles from them, if it's been posted before, I apologize. ------------------ A mysterious object was discovered near the site, where hikers died when trying to cross the Dyatlov Pass. Amateur radio engineer and researcher of paranormal phenomena Valentin Degtyarev believes that the structure that was found on the site may have a connection with the tragedy that took place there in the winter of 1959. It goes about a construction 25-30 meters long and 10-15 meters wide. The construction was found at a distance of ten kilometers from the site, when a group of hikers died in 1959. The construction, Degtyarev believes, could be a part of a bunker that had been built in the Ural mountains during the times of the Cold War. The researcher assumes that the group of hikers could find themselves on the pass the day when neutron weapons were tested. This may explain the presence of radioactive substances on the clothes of one of the victims. The death of the hikers could be a reason, for which the tests were wrapped up. The underground building was blown up and mothballed. The upper part of the bunker is still visible on satellite images. The Dyatlov Pass is considered to be one of the most mysterious areas of hiker routes in the Urals. In February 1959, nine skiers of a hiker club were killed near Mount Otorten under unclear circumstances. Igor Dyatlov was the leader of the group. The bodies that were subsequently found on the site shocked forensic experts: most of the people froze to death, whereas traces on the bodies of other victims indicated that they had died violent deaths. The pass was named in memory of the hiker group led by Igor Dyatlov. Some researchers believe that the hikers died as a result of an explosion of a ballistic missile. According to ex-governor of the Sverdlovsk region, Senator Eduard Rossel, the tragedy on the Dyatlov Pass still remains strictly classified information. Pravda.Ru 08.14.2017
Lyndasez
16-09-2017 15:16 (GMT)
@Nigel. Sorry, but these 3 pics you have attached there look like emulsion degradation to me and one goes above the sprocket advance line...wth?
Compare it with the report from a highly credible witness in the same period.
The meteorologist, Tokareva, gives the most detailed description of the fireball: To the Director of the Ivdel Police Department 15.03.59: At 6:50 local time a comet was seen in the sky. The tail was similar to that of dense cirrus clouds. Then the star became free from the tail, became brighter, and flew away. It began gradually to swell and became a large ball surrounded in mist. Inside this ball a star began to burn, from which, first, a crescent was formed, and then an entire ball, but not as bright. The large ball began to fade and became like a blur. It disappeared at 7:05. The star moved from the south to the northeast.
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (pp. 100-101). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
Now if anyone wants to contest the similarity of the above then they need to ask themselves are they being ridiculous...
"Not even LC can argue that Eagle1 isn't an excellent match for a credible eye witness report."
Sheesh... and you talk about people not reading YOUR posts. Wow.... its like 'wow', but backwards.
Nigel Evans
16-09-2017 12:15 (GMT)
@LC - " SOUNDS LIKE A REASONABLE PURPOSE FOR SZ TO BE ADDED TO ME!! " Absolutely, as said below there could have been a basket of reasons for adding him to the group. My theory is that he or they wanted to include getting some photos of the lights. See how easy it is when we agree .
@KMM - Sounds like a capitulation . Not even LC can argue that Eagle1 isn't an excellent match for a credible eye witness report. Springbank 15, i like my whiskey like my women, dark, sweet and with a hint of engine oil...
KMM
16-09-2017 02:11 (GMT)
Nigel , your tied to that BL crap theory and cannot admit you are wrong! At least not publicly, whether you believe it personally, IDK
Is that blended whiskey ?
Loose-Cannon
16-09-2017 01:47 (GMT)
WHY THE F would the communist USSR gov need to infiltrate a kiddy hike to spy on a UFO?! Gimme a freaking break.. They could do what they want, when they want, for however long they want, and with deep gov funding.
I know you would really like to twist things to suite the BL theory Nigel but this is over the moon loco sheet man.
What Nigel is NOT telling everyone, is that the COMMUNIST GOV RAN UNIVERSITY instructed the leader of the college search team to IMMEDIATELY REPORT ANY INDICATIONS THE DYATLOV GROUP MAY HAVE BEEN ATTEMPTING TO DEFECT TO THE US THROUGH THE NORTHERN REGIONS.
Justified or not.... the state had their suspicions and likely had PRIOR to the group setting out. SOUNDS LIKE A REASONABLE PURPOSE FOR SZ TO BE ADDED TO ME!!
Loose-Cannon
16-09-2017 01:28 (GMT)
Oh for frick sakes...
KMM is right! You need to prove the photo is real or accept the original case file stating 'damaged'. I would expect the experts that opened the damn thing would know what 'damaged' means!
3 butt-cheeks, heads, fingers, fabric rolls, flashlight, lantern, lab exposure before removing film..... DAMAGED!.. YOU HAVE NO DAMN CLUE WHAT THE TRUTH IS..... nobody does. You can only state an opinion, and your opinion does not constitute FACT.
Again, if its a real exposure.... it could just as easily be a flashlight which could indicate murder/s. But its not real... I have seen the actual evidence pics of the cut sections and the canvas is thick and has a very tight weave. Its exactly like the military canvas I am familiar with. If you think those are fabric rolls, I can tell you for a fact canvas does not do this AND especially not when still attached on either end keeping tension on it. You also have a major issue with the wave pattern and size. "if" those are slits, then in order to have all three in the frame would require you to be a good 2 feet of more back from the canvas..... at this distance you will NOT see a large open weave patters as suggested the three balls exposure depicts.
Admit it.... repeat after me...
THERE IS NO WAY POSSIBLE FOR ANYONE TO SAY WITH ANY LEVEL OF CERTAINTY WHAT THAT EXPOSURE DEPICTS
Nigel Evans
15-09-2017 23:39 (GMT)
@KMM - Ok lets tackle these in reverse order. It's getting late and the whiskey is taking effect so bear with me.
"So again, On the ONLY night he sets up to photograph lights, without knowing if there will be any, the whole group gets attacked by these lights. not once, but 2 or 3 times. You can't see how ridiculous you have become ? "
You can't argue a scenario wrt the DPI based on probabilities! Jeez the probable outcome of that night is that they wake up in the morning! All the scenarios are very improbable. Internal/external murder/aliens/yetis/wind/BL all extremely improbable and extremely difficult to align with the facts like the injury profile. We're very definately in improbable territory here. If you don't accept that then you're being ridiculous. So your point just isn't made, probable is a false argument.
"Definitely damaged, They lay in snow, ice, water for 3 months ! All you have to do is look at them to see. All but the first one has been magnified so much their meaningless. The first one was accidental exposure in the lab. Seems like you have to prove them to be real, your the one claiming them to be real." Well PROVING isn't easy but :- (a) thanks to google / youtube i can point to images and vids that support the case that there is strong similarity with "real lights". The 2012 @ DP picture being key. But there's also a video of Hessdalen that films a similar light with this asymmetric structure looking like a "T". (b) also there is an argument that if the images were exposed by SZ then he wasn't just photographing dark sky and he wasn't wasting frames. He didn't have a zoom so it's valid that some of the shots are highly magnified, that doesn't invalidate them. (c) the eagle1 shot is absolutely the same as an eyewitness report from that period. A light surrounded by a mist. The eagle1 on it's own says they're real. (d) i don't accept your determination for the three heads pic. I'll throw your improbable argument back at you, how probable is it that a photo that looks like a shot of a bright light through a canvas slit in a snowstorm could accidental? A trillion to one? (e) wrt water damage the theory is that this camera wasn't commercial grade but military grade and waterproof. I'm not aware of cold damaging film?
Can't think of anything else, whiskey permitting : ).
KMM
15-09-2017 22:27 (GMT)
Definitely damaged, They lay in snow, ice, water for 3 months ! All you have to do is look at them to see. All but the first one has been magnified so much their meaningless. The first one was accidental exposure in the lab. Seems like you have to prove them to be real, your the one claiming them to be real.
So again, On the ONLY night he sets up to photograph lights, without knowing if there will be any, the whole group gets attacked by these lights. not once, but 2 or 3 times. You can't see how ridiculous you have become ?
Nigel Evans
15-09-2017 21:24 (GMT)
@KMM - well then you've got to argue that the SZ photos aren't the real deal. Fakes or damage? Personally i think damage is ridiculous. Faked is possible of course.
KMM
15-09-2017 21:10 (GMT)
So only on the night he sets up to photograph lights in the sky, not knowing if they will show up or not, the whole group gets attacked by the lights. That's REALLY, REALLY stretching it, a LOT farther then I am willing to go>
Nigel Evans
15-09-2017 18:22 (GMT)
@KMM - good question, but it wasn't for one night more like 4 nights. I think it was a low priority mission, after all there was no guarantee that the lights would appear. Other priorities would include raising confidence in the students safety, he was an alpine expert and ww2 veteran. It is claimed that there was another kgb agent in the group "K" presumably AK or YK, at least one of whom worked in sensitive nuclear sites so (at a guess) it ticked a few boxes back at HQ. It may have been that SZ took the mission more seriously than his superiors perhaps. Whatever it's no accident that they chose that campsite, they left late and went straight up camping near the ridge just 500m from the nearest point of the treeline. Very hard to argue that they were lost.
KMM
15-09-2017 17:58 (GMT)
Why would a kgb agent NEED to imbed himself in a hiking expedition JUST to look at lights for 1 night?? The military/kgb had free rein. they could have outfitted their own expedition with specialized equipment and stayed for a week or longer. A transfer of radioactive material makes much more sense.
Nigel Evans
15-09-2017 16:24 (GMT)
@Sandy - not sure we're on the same page with the polite poster philosophy...
Nigel Evans
15-09-2017 16:22 (GMT)
@Lyndasez - well i respect you as indeed i respect all the posters and i encourage you to challenge my posts. Not much point coming on here if we don't exchange frank opinions. Whilst i respect people's passion i do think we should all show each other more respect. Nothing wrong with a bit of sarcasm and parody though, particularly when LC and myself cross swords. All good entertainment. But with respect. Shout at the opinion not at the person.
Concerning your post :- "Everyone glosses over the fact these guys were ill equipped to survive any threats they encountered. No flares?" Flares would be of no use, there was no settlement nearby to see them. Anyway even if the flare was seen and even reported there was no rescue infrastructure. That was the attraction for these youngsters, really out in the wild places.
"If SZ were an agent to study "lights," do you not agree he'd have a telescope or binoculars...or a telescopic lens on the camera?" Well he's got to carry that stuff and probably a telescopic lens of that era would be much heavier. I'm guessing he opted for getting closer rather than carrying a pile of stuff. From memory the male members of the group set off with backpacks weighing 50kg so not much room onboard.
"I understand your logic about the the choice of unrestricted skyline...if he was to observe all this phenomena, but couldn't he walk to a clearing" No that's the point the snow being whipped up off the back of the ridge ruled out a clearing or climbing a tree. Just 200m of altitude below the ridge and the sky could be a near whiteout. 200m higher and you're above it.
"instead making them sitting ducks? I mean wouldn't this raise questions and too many concerns about his choices between the group?" There was no clear reason to be afraid of the lights other than mansi superstition would be the thinking. Someone went to the DP in 2012 and photographed these lights even with the benefit of hindsight. A light in the sky isn't scary until it comes and sits next to you...
Sandy
15-09-2017 16:19 (GMT)
John Wolfe 15-09-2017 03:15 (GMT) Hi Nigel, re: the "three heads" photo -- if you examine it -- you'll see that the two "heads" on the right are not rounded like the one on the left -- I think what we're seeing is FIVE HEADS -- the two on the right look to me to be occluding / overlapping of two each.
5 heads?? I can't believe the utter bullshit you & ballman keep coming up with......
There's nothing special about you John. You're delusional & have no idea of self awareness.
Keep the preposterous shit coming, it's good for a chuckle.
Have a nice day.
Lyndasez
15-09-2017 15:17 (GMT)
@Nigel Hello, I'm starting to think everyone's on "crazy pills!" Where in my post did I complain of vitriol?! That was JW at me! He stated my comments were less than useless...didn't see you pipe up about that...I'm respectful when respected, if you're gonna give it to me without prompting, sorry all bets are off...
To address your theory of SZ being a KGB to study lights in the area.... Everyone glosses over the fact these guys were ill equipped to survive any threats they encountered. No flares? How good is an important mission under those circumstances? If SZ were an agent to study "lights," do you not agree he'd have a telescope or binoculars...or a telescopic lens on the camera? I confess I haven't delved into the many theories, just cursory...so I try reserve comment on them. I understand your logic about the the choice of unrestricted skyline...if he was to observe all this phenomena, but couldn't he walk to a clearing instead making them sitting ducks? I mean wouldn't this raise questions and too many concerns about his choices between the group?
Nigel Evans
15-09-2017 13:34 (GMT)
@Lyndasez - getting too complicated for me, i'm just a simple poster. If you're complaining about too much vitriol i would concur, nothing wrong with some passion but lets keep it polite passion, shout at the ideas but respect everyone's right to post them...
Wrt to your question - "Why did Mr. brilliant leader choose that locale when the forest would've given them break from the wind and a place to secure the stove?!" "My BL theory" has it that SZ was a KGB agent on a mission to examine the reports of "lights" in this area, was equipped with a camera for night photography and he was attached to the group by the government agency that provided permission for the trip. So he would have had some serious influence on ID. On the 31 Jan they got to the base camp from which they would start ascending to Mt Otorten. The wind was very strong and coming from the West. Hence it was whipping up a lot of snow off the back of the ridge and into the forest that contained their planned route. This snow made it difficult to observe and photograph any lights so he decided that "the mission " was best served by camping as close to the ridge as was sensible the stove not deployed but filled with firewood just in case. So that's what they did, they left at 3pm and went straight up there. It wasn't ID's decision in fact he records in the diary (the last ever entry) - "We started fire with logs, too tired to dig a fire pit. We had supper right in the tent. It's warm. It is hard to imagine such a comfort somewhere on the ridge, with a piercing wind, hundreds kilometers away from human settlements.". Imo he's indicating he's being overruled on the plan, he doesn't like the idea of the ridge but has to comply.
Lyndasez
15-09-2017 13:10 (GMT)
@fellow posters, I address this to you in light of Mr. Wolfes request I not do so to him...(so don't peek!) However, I'd like to rebut his recent post to me. Mr. Wolfe your post is irrational...an silly. ------------------ "Lyndasez 09-14-2017 22:09 (GMT) ---- your comments are even less useless than the vitriol of loose shorts --"
a.) Triggered much?
"1) Ssooooo -- what match-book gave you your PhD in Psychology ?"
a.) Don't need a PhD to use inductive reasoning..
"2) what's that got to do with MIT ?"
a.) Where you flew off to here, is beyond me. You compared the Russian students to the caliber of American... to which I posted (excerpt of crime committed by an MIT student) neutralizing your argument that both are super rational humans...
"3) you seem to be agreeing with me on that one,"
a.) not a chance...
"4) actually, they did go off in an organized group"
a.) So?! Where was the threat then?! They weren't equipped it seems to deal with any! Did they even have binoculars, telescope, lighter, how bout a distress flare?Wth????
"5) your future posts -- don't bother -- as I'm not going to waste my time on them"
a.) Yes, waste it on another pill or pint, and RELAX, man...this is a discussion board, you're not gonna be graded.
Loose-Cannon
15-09-2017 11:43 (GMT)
John..... You are one sick sob
Nigel Evans
15-09-2017 07:15 (GMT)
@John - they're not heads? Just folds in the bottom of the canvas slit (imo). Note all the members of the group had long(ish) hairstyles even the men on top. None of them had "spikey" hair like in the three heads photo. Whatever it's a photo of, it's not heads...
Well if the sole source of these reports is from that looo.ch site then there's cause for concern. I try not to base too much on internet sites, a lot of chinese whispers out there.
Nigel Evans
15-09-2017 06:52 (GMT)
@KMM - we've got disagreeing sources over Ivanov, mine is as reported by S. Oss an english speaking russian journalist quoting an interview he gave in russian, yours are simply internet gossip. A problem with the DPI is that it attracts a lot of hype.
Disappointing he's too busy to look at a possible phenomena that is often quoted as an embarrassment of modern physics. Sign of the times, too much specialism.
John Wolfe
15-09-2017 05:24 (GMT)
re: the fake JW post -- I'm guessing posted by that Loose Cannon -- "John Wolfe 09-15-2017 04:29 (GMT)" -- his words - not mine - So we know what he thinks about.
John Wolfe
15-09-2017 05:19 (GMT)
Hi Nigel, I have an interesting thought about the two reports of 1) the night watchman at the quarry / mining site; and 2) the forester. Two things stand out that makes me think these were unrelated to the DPI phenomena -- in fact, I think they were pranks -- let me explain:
When I first read these two accounts I was fascinated with the two stories -- however my fascination was in part because of a mis-reading of the two accounts. I had originally thought that the two events happened about ten years apart (as that is -- ie 10 years -- WHEN the second guy, the forester, started looking for the mining watchman guy from the first account; he had seen an article in the local newspaper -- and never forgot his experience of it) But then I started to look at the details of the two stories and realized we'd all been pranked -- by some Soviet teens, no doubt.
1) -- first of all -- the events happened only about two weeks apart, and it was summer, when school is out, and kids stay up late; some playing pranks. I checked the dates on both reports -- less than two weeks apart -- but it was THE NEWSPAPER ARTICL about the mining watchman's experience, that got the forester's attention, which was in a local paper ten years later. Also -- the two events happened somewhat close to one another. Don't have the books in front of me -- about 40 km apart, as I recall.
2) both events had the exact same appearance - with the exact same "behavior" of the lights. (I don't think ball lightning would duplicate its actions at a different location / or time --- its actions being somewhat random.
3) in both, the big light kept turning off when the "victim" looked at it -- as the light operator would see the glowing pupils and know he was being looked at.
4) both events had "swinging " but much smaller, lights. Like a couple of guys walking with a flashlight (sorry - torch) in each hand.
5) sounds like a fun thing to do.
---- any thoughts ? ----
John Wolfe
15-09-2017 04:29 (GMT)
Don't hate me because I'm? special. At least I think I am, whatever. I have always known myself to be above all others. I like to zap my penis with a cut off power cord and scream FIREBALL at the top of my lungs. Is that normal? Occasionally I venture out to my garden to pick out a fresh big juicy zucchini for.... oops. Have you ever embarrassed yourself by typing what your thinking? I hate that! Its like a constant brain-fart but I find myself liking the smell. Anyways, don't take my posts seriously because in all actuality I'm just an ankle biter with nothing better to do other then the helicopter in front of my cat... Copter copter copter. She loves playing copter, such a sassy cat. Hehe
Have to go for now, I'm getting fitted for a custom adult onesie tomorrow to match my binky and I'm super excited. Do you guys cosplay? Toodaloo!
John Wolfe
15-09-2017 03:32 (GMT)
re: Lyndasez 09-14-2017 22:09 (GMT) ---- your comments are even less useless than the vitriol of loose shorts --
1) Ssooooo -- what match-book gave you your PhD in Psychology ?
2) what's that got to do with MIT ?
3) you seem to be agreeing with me on that one,
4) actually, they did go off in an organized group
5) your future posts -- don't bother -- as I'm not going to waste my time on them
6) have a nice day, Linda
John Wolfe
15-09-2017 03:15 (GMT)
Hi Nigel, re: the "three heads" photo -- if you examine it -- you'll see that the two "heads" on the right are not rounded like the one on the left -- I think what we're seeing is FIVE HEADS -- the two on the right look to me to be occluding / overlapping of two each.
Loose-Cannon
15-09-2017 01:08 (GMT)
Nigels hero Ivanov is a complete jackwagon. Arguably the entire reason this mystery..... Is a mystery.
KMM
15-09-2017 00:43 (GMT)
Nigel Evans 14-09-2017 22:49 (GMT) @KMM - "I argue lots of stuff with him. BTW, he doesn't buy into BL DPI " Good for him, what's his opinion of the three heads, eagle photos and the 2012 pics?
Privately, he told people he thought they’d been killed by aliens in a UFO http://midnightinthedesert.com/dyatlov-pass-indicent-what-slaughtered-nine-hikers-on-siberias-death-mountain-in-1959/
Loose-Cannon
14-09-2017 23:40 (GMT)
Laff... Nigel, not even close.The beat to shit part is correct though, which is why only one is at the top of the list. BL is based on lies and twisted truths with a side order of fantastical fantasy. Your arrogant attitude about it also leaves an awful taste in the mouth. Hork, spit.
Hey Nigel my little buddy... What if your three cocks exposure is actually evidence of a bright ass flashlight?? Whoah.... Entire BL theory goes poof! Perhaps lends credentials to the murder theory.....
You have no idea what that exposure is. Fact
Nigel Evans
14-09-2017 23:22 (GMT)
@LC - so is this your top 5?
#1 = internal murder theory somehow, dunno the details, but they definately got beat to shit. #2 = external murder theory somehow, dunno the details, but they definately got beat to shit. #3 = murder by methanol theory somehow, dunno the details, but they definately got methanoled. #4 - act of god theory, fuck knows how as long as they get beat to shit. #5 = BL theory, lots of detail and supported with photographs, but doesn't include that they got beat to shit.
Nigel Evans
14-09-2017 23:12 (GMT)
@KMM - " "Ivanov firmly believed that UFOs and alien technology was responsible for the unexplained mystery"." Incorrect, he said - "By the way, I do not mean that these UFOs are connected with aliens. A UFO is an unidentified flying object, and that’s it. A lot of data speaks of the fact that [the UFOs] can be bursts of energy not understood by modern science, but which affect life and the environment.
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (p. 138). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition. "
Lyndasez
14-09-2017 22:51 (GMT)
@Sandy Hi, The reason I'm inclined to reject the witness to something they shouldn't have theory is: I believe the area was vetted for this sort of thing beforehand. Secondly, KGB don't play, they'd have set the tent aflame and torched whomever ran out, no going back to check for survivors...
Nigel Evans
14-09-2017 22:49 (GMT)
@KMM - "I argue lots of stuff with him. BTW, he doesn't buy into BL DPI " Good for him, what's his opinion of the three heads, eagle photos and the 2012 pics?
Loose-Cannon
14-09-2017 22:33 (GMT)
Heck... I've already proven there is a very real possibility going directly off the case files, that there was no mass panic exodus from the tent.
Loose-Cannon
14-09-2017 22:16 (GMT)
KMM... Rofl
Lyndasez.... OUTSTANDING!.... Another poster capable of critical thinking that's not cornered themselves into a mental box prison.
Lyndasez
14-09-2017 22:09 (GMT)
@John Wolfe -- "NONE OF THESE GUYS/GIRLS WERE CLASS CLOWNS ! they were undergraduate and graduate students at Ural Polytechnic Institute -- which is like the MIT or Stanford U of the Soviet Nation. (though much smaller and not nearly as well funded) They were (highly valuable) students in engineering and the sciences; some already working in their field while they studied."
Allow me to clarify, some were wrapped more tightly than others. In photos some are clowning around, whereas, Igor appears on the outside looking in..
And to your comparison to the likes of MIT students, I submit this: "On Thursday, November 22 (1971), a former MIT student named Larry J. Harmon entered St. Aloysius Roman Catholic Church in Spokane, Washington - his home-town; He was armed with a sledge hammer and a clip-fed .22 caliber rifle. With the hammer he smashed the interior of the church and with the rifle he killed the caretaker, 68 year old Hilary Kunz."
-- "as for all the talk of love and kissing -- what else do 20'something college students talk about when they are relaxing? "
According to you they would be discussing the Riemann hypothesis or string theory!
Concerning the stove- yes, I know it wasn't erected that night, which also concerns me. Why did Mr. brilliant leader choose that locale when the forest would've given them break from the wind and a place to secure the stove?!
"please note: Igor was chosen for the group leader because he had led groups in that area before -- more than one time. This was a school club."
I know this to, 4 hikes i believe was stated. So? What was his disaster training, think the girls had as many hikes ...and 1 was bitten by a viper and the other accidentally shot.. if Igor was so good at this wouldn't they all have been kept together, instead of splintered off?
KMM
14-09-2017 21:57 (GMT)
Loose-Cannon 14-09-2017 21:08 (GMT) For the record.... Since conversing with Nigel, the BL possibly (for me) has been reduced to #4 or #5 on my list.
Your too kind LC. I've got it below Yeti, and Lev Ivanov's "Ivanov firmly believed that UFOs and alien technology was responsible for the unexplained mystery". Which would be farther down my list.
Loose-Cannon
14-09-2017 21:08 (GMT)
For the record.... Since conversing with Nigel, the BL possibly (for me) has been reduced to #4 or #5 on my list.
Sandy
14-09-2017 20:50 (GMT)
@Anna - You're a smart cookie. I agree with everything you've posted. Good job.
Sandy
14-09-2017 20:48 (GMT)
Suzanne 06-09-2016 13:28 (GMT) I really like Ian's conclusion - he has by far explained what might have happened to the individuals with the most plausable explanation. Whether or not it was soldiers is probably the only "iffy" part of the explanation. It could have been natives or soldiers - doesn't matter. It definitely fits the clues left.
Me 14-01-2016 17:24 (GMT) They were obviously murdered somehow.
Ian 13-08-2016 14:11 (GMT) These were young people full of life and ability, who would have brought a lot of good into the world if they had been able to live out their natural lifetimes. The sheer tragedy of this story hasn’t allowed it to leave my mind for days. At least for me, trying to put together a rational explanation of the events brings a little bit of closure. I’m not saying that the hypothetical scenario that follows is what happened, but I do think it fits all of the available evidence. What do you think?
Sometime during the day or evening of Feb 1st, the Dyatlov group encountered a clandestine testing or training operation perhaps involving jets or rockets (This would explain the reports of glowing orange lights and the military debris in the area later noted by YY). It wasn’t the type of situation where there was a fear of the hikers leaking photographs of a secrete weapon (their cameras would have simply been confiscated). For some reason, the group itself came to be perceived as the threat.
The group’s journal records that as they were traveling towards the beginning point of their hike, they sometimes sung anti-revolution songs that could have landed them in jail. They twice had scrapes with authorities on their trip (once for singing). Also from the journal, it appears that they enjoyed free and open debates about a variety of topics. Later, out in the woods hundreds of km from the nearest settlement (journal entry), they probably would have felt even greater freedom in such expressions. Entering into the area of an ongoing operation may have brought them under surveylence, perhaps without their knowledge. An overheard song or a frank debate about politics, combined with their chance-but-perceived-as-“suspicious” presence in a sensitive area, caused them to be viewed as subversive.
They camped that night on open high ground. When one of the members, perhaps SZ or NYB, stepped outside to relieve himself, if it was clear, his flashlight would have been visible for a long distance, alerting anyone in the area who might not have already been aware of their tent’s precise location. Minutes later, as the group was finishing dinner and drying out their clothes, a small armed detachment arrived at the tent. Whoever it was (I’ll call them “soldiers”) knocked the tent down, fired a few rounds into the air, and ordered the hikers outside or they would be shot. (Supposedly, there were no footprints other than the Dyaltov party’s at the tent, but how could one tell? Surely the Dyaltov group made many boot prints when they set up camp, obviously the rescuers were wearing boots days later when they got to the tent. At first no one suspected it could be a crime scene. It is not just possible but probable that a couple extra pairs of footprints at the tent would have gone unnoticed).
Unexpected gunfire and barking orders would have sent a momentary jolt of fear into even these level-headed travelers. Members of the group who had pocket knives at hand quickly cut through the tent to get everyone outside before the threat was carried out. The multiple cuts in the tent were created in the panic and confusion of exiting a wriggling collapsed tent cover in the dark.
The soldiers wanted to neutralize the hikers, but to leave bullet holes or other obvious wounds would have eventually led to strong demands for an explanation from the community. The soldiers chose to expose them to the cold. Under some guise, the soldiers told the Dyatlov group that they had to leave the area immediately. With great presence of mind, the group leader, ID grabbed a flashlight and his heavy coat as he was leaving the tent. He was immediately ordered to leave them behind, setting the flashlight on the tent, and throwing his coat down, near the spot where he had exited (It’s difficult to conceive of another logical scenario that would explain these objects being found where they were).
The Dyaltov party was followed, but not very far. (Their being followed some distance would explain the heeled boot track found among their own tracks as they headed down slope - No one in the group was wearing such boots at this time). They dropped a lit flashlight on the way, either because they were ordered to do so, or in hopes of using it as a beacon to direct them back to the tent if the soldiers left.
Poorly clothed, in extreme cold, and possibly in the dark, these resilient people covered half the distance that they traveled in their entire day’s hike, to arrive at the nearest tree line. This probably took quite a bit of time, and they knew that with their level of exposure the clock was against them. They set up a small base camp under a pine tree, just out of site of the tent, and together built an emergency fire (an impressive feat with frozen wood, in the cold, with no gloves, and possibly in the dark). Afraid that the soldiers were still at the tent, and unsure if they would pursue, YD and YK were posted near the fire to keep a lookout for the soldiers’ approach. (This would explain why branches were broken off so high up in the tree on the side of the tent, when other branches would have been easier to obtain.) Perhaps they kept a lookout from up in the tree as long as they could. Many or all of the injuries on these two individuals were from exposed hands getting frost bite in the tree, eventually leading to them falling out.
The rest of the group proceeded to build a shelter in a protected area, near, but out of site of the lookout tree. The small fire of frozen wood was not enough to keep the injured YD, and YK warm. Even though they burned parts of their numb extremities, they fell asleep. Either someone in the group was with them, or came back to them, showing care and respect by placing the bodies next to each other. The outer clothes, no longer of any use to the deceased, were removed. At this point, the shelter was not yet finished, because some of their clothing was incorporated into it. The survivors did their best to stay warm in the shelter, but were dangerously cold and heartbroken over the deaths.
Shortly before dawn, the soldiers returned to make sure no one was left to tell the tale. They discovered the shelter, and a hand-to-hand fight ensued. (This would explain many’s of the group’s injuries, including the bruised metacarples on ID and RS, RS’s concussion, and the baton bruise on ZK.) Exhausted and freezing, the group was now no match for their assailants even without the use of their guns).
ID, RS, and ZK managed to break free into the darkness. They made a run for the tent, desperate for the axes or anything to help their friends. (Such a level of desperation would explain why they left the group, the shelter, and the fire, when they were so close to freezing that they could only go a few hundred more yards). ZK, a strong and brave young woman came the closest to making it.
As for the group that was left, the soldiers pressed LD and SZ to death, broke YK’s neck, and crushed TBS’s skull, neutralizing them without leaving any obvious weapon mark. (Such a grim scenario would explain the types of injuries sustained by the party members found in the ravine - crushed chests with none of the external cuts or arm injuries that would have certainly happened in a fall, explain why they were all found outside of their nearby shelter, explain the fragment of soldier’s garb found in the ravine, and explain why it was subsequently taken out of evidence). The autopsies of these group members were the most vague, because the coroners had no choice. More detail would have raised still more questions from the community and gotten them in official hot water.
It is significant that YY, who was a part of the group, knew the Dyatlov party’s circumstances better than any living person, and saw all or most of the original evidence, thought that the military had something to do with his friend’s deaths. In 2008, 6 of the original rescuers and a team of 31 experts came to the similar conclusion that military testing was involved. The official report was that the Dyatlov group died at the hands of an “unknown compelling force”. How could words come closer to summarizing the above, without implicating the party responsible? This may also explain why the military closed the area for the following three years.
Any thoughts?
Robs 04-10-2016 17:50 (GMT) These were scientific professionals not your average man off the street. Something happened in the or around the tent that made 9 people panic and evacuate the tent under extreme pressure. Knowing it was minus 20+ they left without clothing and equipment. We already agreed that they ran from the tent not walked so that already falsified the report saying they walked in single file. I see no evidence of BL or the phonomia of the low wave sounds that "send people mad". The BL to strike in 3 different locations and kill multiple persons is at best highly unlikely. We are missing something if they didn't read the tracks correctly as mentioned above then they could have missed other things in my opinion
CE399_ 19-10-2016 19:21 (GMT) Comment to Robs: Group infighting does not explain the hurried exit from the tent unless someone pulled a gun on the rest of the group. Or say, grabbed Lyuda and threatened to slit her throat if the rest of the group didn't do as he said.
Zolotaryov had the most unstable personal life going into the trip. He was a serial job-hopper. That is often a sign of an acute personality or psychological disorder that suddenly erupts. He was a loner and from a culture that almost required marriage yet remained unmarried at an age that was considered too old.
Zolotaryov had strange tattoos which are not that unusual for hardcore Soviet military men except that they were too cryptic in way that was not normal.
Zolotaryov was a Cossack from a group that was 97% wiped out by Stalin's genocide. He survived by joining the Soviet army and proving himself loyal to them. To abandon your familial heritage and join the enemy has to mean something is askew or will go askew with you psychologically at some point. And Zolotaryov had a very askew career and personal life.
Zolotaryov was an unvetted outsider with a very suspicious past that included World War II service where Soviet soldiers committed genocide, murder, torture and rape on a scale that certainly touched his experience if not fully involved him.
I would agree that infighting could have been what happened if Zolotaryov had not suffered the same violent death as Lyuda.
Zolotaryov was well clothed when he died of internal trauma. The rather mediocre coroners said there were no "external signs of injury" i.e. bruising to match the cracked ribs. This has been mistakenly attributed as evidence that the "overwhelming force" was some mysterious electromagnetic beam weapon.
Every other member of the group had a lengthy history with each other that rules out any of them as being involved in a fatal infighting incident.
Only Zolotaryov could have been the cause of an infighting conflict that drove them to their deaths. His background paints a very troubled person. But nothing that indicates he was a sociopath.
The biggest problem with trying to pin it on Zolotaryov is that he died with the other victims in a way that could not have been self-inflicted. And there just isn't another person who can be fingered with any reasonable degree of evidence. The group was also nearer the beginning of the trip than the end. Nerves get frayed during an expedition of several days but the group had not been traveling in the wilderness as a group, out of contact with the rest of the world, for more than four days. And they had not encountered any significant difficulties that would accelerate interpersonal tensions.
Someone from the outside attacked the group and did so for reasons that were personal and excluded most of the group.
Because Lyuda was so viciously attacked and two other men with her were killed violently, the most logical scenario is that the attacker(s) drove the group suddenly out of the tent.
At some point, some of them fought back and escaped. Some of them were seriously injured in the process and all were too weak and vulnerable to survive which would explain why the attacker(s) did not pursue them.
A person improperly clothed in a storm at -25 Celsius isn't going to survive the night. The escapees tried to get a fire going and climbed a tree to see where they were --strong evidence that they were driven from the tent by an attacker and not a fireball. If they had had a choice of where to flee, they would have headed toward the larger river, main path and their storage cache by the abandoned campsite.
Some of the escapees tried to get back to the tent and some stayed with the fire. Those who stayed with the fire were burned because that is what happens when the fire is too small and the weather too cold.
The clothing was not taken off of dead bodies, it was ordered to be given to the subgroup that the attacker was most interested in dealing with. People just assume the clothing of some of the victims was removed by their comrades after they died. In a hostage scenario the possibilities include clothing being ordered to be removed.
Because Zolotaryov was wearing Lyuda's hat and because his injuries would have left him alive for minutes or hours, it is logical to imagine that the assailant injured Zolotaryov first. Lyuda then, seeing him injured took compassion on him and gave him her hat. This likely took place in "the den" where Lyuda would have been out of the wind and could have survived without a hat.
The assailant then attacked Lyuda, perhaps it was because she showed compassion for Zolotaryov. Her injuries are consistent with someone acting out of anger and not as part of a fistfight.
The assailant then left the group after seeing that all of them were dead.
Doing such a thing was crazy stupid illogical and irrational but most crimes of passion are.
Everyone wants to treat the fireball events seen around the time of the Dyatlov tragedy as special. Sorry, that sort of thing is not special at all. Go spend a couple winters up there and you'll see. I have. And I am not impressed at all by the stories. They are as common as hurricanes in Florida. Sure, some are bigger than others and some seasons have few and others a lot. But what was seen was not unique.
Frank Black 25-10-2016 19:27 (GMT) Best web site I've seen so far with very comprehensive injury information. I don't believe in a Yeti, UFO or any of that paranormal crap. There is only one kind of animal that can inflict that kind of damage to those young people- MAN. Military security, regular Army whatever but I believe it was other humans. I know that it might take some of the "lunatic fringe" mystery out of it but really a Yeti, be serious. Look at the autopsy data, some of those kids had the crap beaten out of them. You have to look at this logically plus 9 intelligent educated young people lost there lives possibly because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Robs 31-10-2016 12:11 (GMT) How many people had BL actually killed leaving these exact injuries ? I suspect none but I'm not an expert?
Robs 26-11-2016 16:58 (GMT) The bodies weren't found for weeks. Footprints couldhave easily been made or covered without any hassle including the hijackers foot prints (if that's what happened) the BL theory is just too far fetched for me, to make them Leave the tent in such a panic, apparently follow them and kill them at different locations doesn't seem right
Robs 28-11-2016 18:09 (GMT) That is a possibility Mick, certainly i think that the group were hijacked by persons unknown
Mick 28-11-2016 17:44 (GMT) Earlier, the group had had an argument with a drunk man who claimed they'd stolen his wallet, so perhaps when he'd sobered up he got his friends to follow the hikers, and clubbed them in their tent?
Teddy 30-11-2016 18:09 (GMT) Another thing - what caused my trauma is high velocity impact - I was mounted in the back of a truck, much like this http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Krivonischenko-camera-film6-05.jpg the truck going down a mountain and the brakes failed. The truck lost control and we smashed into a rock with 70 km/h. So I tell you - you can not break your ribs by falling down a snow slope or somebody hitting you with a heavy bat. This is what is puzzling me, even if there were people pointing guns at them, how did they manage to inflict such a horrific injuries? A butt of a rifle can cause and most probably did cause Slobodin's skull fracture http://dyatlovpass.com/death#Slobodin but not Dubinina's broken ribs. Zolotaryov had similar rib fractures http://dyatlovpass.com/death#Zolotaryov Teddy 30-11-2016 17:52 (GMT) Dubinina had 10 broken ribs on both sides. Please refer to http://dyatlovpass.com/death#Dubinina I had similar injury - flail chest with lung contusion http://distal-humerus.com/resources/320/gallery/2012-07-24-X-Ray-chest.jpg They drained my right lung for 10 days - it was a pulp. My prognosis was dim. Dubinina had twice as much broken ribs but she didn't drown in her own blood because a broken rib pierced her heart. The cause of death is stated as hemorrhage into right atrium of the heart, multiple fractured ribs and internal bleeding More interesting is that there were 100 g of coagulated blood in her stomach which means she swallowed after her tongue was ripped out. Photos of Lyudmila from the morgue clearly show that there is no damage to the mouth, nose, ears or other soft tissues. If the body was devoured by scavengers, insects or even fish in the water these would be the first parts of the body that would show signs of damage.
Robs 04-12-2016 20:22 (GMT) My theory is that hijackers forced them to leave tent with no shoes and little clothing knowing that they would soon die (and attacked them later). The tracks disappeared just like the tracks from the 9'when they setup camp
ken 29-01-2017 15:58 (GMT)
Anna Yordanova
14-09-2017 20:45 (GMT)
@Sandy.I have mentioned since I started posting here,that in my opinion the hikers were killed.The search group went to look after them a week later.A week is a long time.The killers had plenty of time to cover prints,even mess around with evidence to puzzle the investigation.BL would be a possibility if only one of them was killed,but there is no evidence of storm that night plus the fact that lightning is rare during winter.
Sandy
14-09-2017 19:47 (GMT)
Anna Yordanova 14-09-2017 17:04 (GMT) Violent death refers to death resulting from a sharp blow, stabbing, explosion, gunfire, or the like. The death is accelerated by human intervention. It is the opposite of natural death which occurs due to natural reasons. It says human intervention,meaning that the death of the victims was caused by another humans.
Finally....A person on this site besides the 3 Musketeers & their BL blither which never ceases. Page after page after pitiful bs page.......If you disagree, you're bullied & ignored. Nothing else is discussed except the BL. Oh, that murdering BL.......9 people in .... how many different injuries??? The BL seems to like hands, especially fingers, since almost all of them have combat/fight defensive injuries, skinned knuckles....... Seems to like breaking both sets of ribs and skulls too.....Severing a tongue....Blunt force trauma on a skull, case files state this......Removing 2 sets of eyeballs......caving a chest cavity in.
Igor has many many abrasions and defensive wounds as well even tho he died from hypothermia, many hand abrasions...... Most of them have dried blood around their mouths, their noses, as in fight wounds, again......It states in the case files that it's very rare for hypothermia victims to look like these hikers. Meaning, most hypothermia victims do not have the shit kicked, punched, kneed, hit violently with a baton, blunt force trauma to a skull and almost all sets of 9 hands with obvious combat/defensive wounds.
That BL sure was busy stalking that nite...........
There used to be a lot of other posters discussing the obvious & file stated documents that equal all 9 hikers being murdered by other people. This is a given now. Yet, this site is now only used for this BL bullsh!t by 3 delusional posters, one being an obsessed, desperate man to be known for making up "the big BL theory", and in his own words, he thinks we have "theory envy" or some such bull, since almost all the posters that have been here disagreed with Nigel & have left long ago.
Of course the BL man has been here since inception, blowing his fancied horn as if he's achieved some wonderful award for thinking up such a thing as BL killing nine people at one get go.
It says BLs disappear quickly too musketeers. A lot of them are the size of a grapefruit..... they leave electric shocks on people often....lightning marks.....burns that you can tell come from some sort of lightning...
And did I say that I read that it's "rare" or almost impossible to have BL without some sort of storm?? They have hundreds of alleged victims/survivors that have posted about their own stories of a BL. None of them match even close to the hikers. Most survived.
I feel your laid back, moronic BL mumbo jumbo is a disgrace to these 9 that were so brutally murdered, died in screaming terror and agony, the last 4 tortured for hours and hours....
You should be ashamed of yourselves for saying it's "unintelligent" to believe what the files are depicting clearly & what the deceased pics unmistakenly show. The death pics are horrific, just horrific of their terror.........
The nine hikers deserve to have their truth be stated so they didn't all die in vain without anyone knowing what really happened.
I feel pity for your delusion and for Nigel's false bravado over a really really senseless & proven ludicrous BL pipe dream.
It is clear to see, except for the delusional, and from reading all nine's autopsies & what was written in their case files and in the decades since, in this year of 2017, yes, it's very evident and clearly stated in the files that all nine were attacked & murdered by "people" in "hand to hand combat/fighting".
If you do not support this BL ridiculous sh!t, I can't call it a theory any longer after I did some research on what it is & what today's scientists know and think about it. Seems like it disappears pretty quickly, to have it happen without a thunderstorm/rainstorm is indeed considered "rare" & has different injuries listed by the "many" people that claim to have been hit by BL and survived.
If there had "really" been 9 people, all hit by BL, it is rare & highly unlikely that all 9 would have been killed by it. There would have been survivors.
I have since found MANY photos of the 9 hikers death pictures that I have never seen before, nor are all of them listed on this site. It has horrified me as about all have mouths open wide, as if in screaming in terror, and anything BUT CALM as the jackass Nigel has stated. Calm? Are you really that delusional you will say such a thing just to support your BL blah blah. To say that is disrespectful to the hikers & the agony that was suffered. Their lives taken just.like.that.
I also find it disrespectful that you would post that Zina hardly had any injuries. "Scratches" you called them. She had abrasions, not scratches, almost all over her entire face. Her hands. Her knuckles were skinned to the bone......She isn't even recognizable. A person hit the f*ck out of her with something like a baton. To stop her from getting to the tent. She was doing pretty good until her back got whacked as hard as a strong man could. Fact. Evidence to back this up.
There are other sites where intelligent folks can discuss rationally and seriously the way these young innocent peoples' lives were taken. .... God knows. He saw. He wept. He will serve His justice one day. The 9 deserve justice and truth and they're not getting that here.
KMM
14-09-2017 19:03 (GMT)
Nigel Evans 14-09-2017 18:33 (GMT) @LC - high energy radiation = X rays and/or gamma rays... Ligtning bolts also produce ball lightning.... I've previously conjectured that they could have been unlucky with a positive polarity lightning bolt. But it doesn't really explain leaving the tent AND being kept away. So given SZ's photos i've opted for BL start and finish.
If you've read the thread you'll know i have a degree in Physics btw.
I have a son with a Masters in physics, well on his way to a PHD at ASU - GO SUNDEVILS ! :-) - I argue lots of stuff with him. BTW, he doesn't buy into BL DPI
Loose-Cannon
14-09-2017 18:56 (GMT)
"If you've read the thread you'll know i have a degree in Physics btw"
I'm happy for you..... But how does that equate to evidence BL killed 9 hikers, or you having the authority over opinions? Does this mean I have to kiss your ass, or do you still put your pants on the same way I do? Please tell me your like the dear leader of NK and do not go #2.
Anna Yordanova
14-09-2017 18:54 (GMT)
Violent Death Law and Legal Definition | USLegal, Inc.
Nigel Evans
14-09-2017 18:33 (GMT)
@LC - high energy radiation = X rays and/or gamma rays... Ligtning bolts also produce ball lightning.... I've previously conjectured that they could have been unlucky with a positive polarity lightning bolt. But it doesn't really explain leaving the tent AND being kept away. So given SZ's photos i've opted for BL start and finish.
If you've read the thread you'll know i have a degree in Physics btw.
Loose-Cannon
14-09-2017 18:21 (GMT)
"Lightning bolts produce high energy radiation btw."
Good thing they didn't get hit by lightning eh Nigel. Besides.... 'high energy' doesn't explain what type of radiation. The RADIATOR in you car is a form or thermal radiation. Getting tired of your condescending crap dude.
Loose-Cannon
14-09-2017 18:14 (GMT)
"I want to draw the readers' attention to another very important fact - the description in the media reports of a very important body that, from the impact of radioactive iodine (131J), suffers first of all - the thyroid gland ."
Well there ya go.... Radioactive Iodine. The thyroid gland is next.
Nigel Evans
14-09-2017 18:13 (GMT)
@John - i agree with you, i think Anna is incorrect.
Nigel Evans
14-09-2017 18:12 (GMT)
@LC - the radiation found on their clothes was beta.
Nigel Evans
14-09-2017 18:07 (GMT)
@LC - i'm glad you know what you're talking about. Lightning bolts produce high energy radiation btw. And anti matter.
Loose-Cannon
14-09-2017 18:06 (GMT)
@shitforbrains
We know the definition of 'violent'.... You asshat
Loose-Cannon
14-09-2017 18:04 (GMT)
Nigel.
From what I'm seeing, its all about exposure/poisoning of methanol and a type of irrradiation, OR irradiated methanol. There has been no such mention of 'microwave' irrradiation. Im almost certain its in reference to the type found on the articles of clothing from the ravine 4. Was it gama? Ill get to it shortly
KMM
14-09-2017 17:52 (GMT)
ohn Wolfe 14-09-2017 16:19 (GMT) re: KMM 09-13-2017 20:07 (GMT) the intelligent ask WHY DID THE MANSI NAME THE TWO MOUNTAINS --- DEAD MOUNTAIN --- and --- DON'T GO THERE ---
That has been explained in almost all websites I've read, maybe you should try reading some.
---- why don't you quote a few instead of spouting off about stuff you haven't read --- all the accounts I've read say that they Mansi named the mountains such because of a hunting party which was killed by the gods -- who looked like balls of light -- how much clearer do you need it ? If they had the word "explosion" or "explodes" in their lexicon they probably would have used that word too. ................................................. LC answered you with a link
Here is another: http://survincity.com/2012/08/mystery-death-of-dyatlov/ History began Jan. 23, 1959, when five students of the Ural Polytechnic Institute, three engineers — graduates of the same university — and the instructor campings reached the 22-day ski trip length of three kilometers of the highest grade. During a trek was planned and climb Mount Otorten (translation — "Do not go there" or "mountain, where the wind blows"
You made the statement, why didn't you post links to support it? Maybe something that doesn't contain the words "legend" "folklore" "yeti", you know something intelligent folk will understand.
John Wolfe
14-09-2017 17:43 (GMT)
re: Anna Yordanova 09-14-2017 17:04 (GMT) Violent death refers to death resulting from a sharp blow, stabbing, explosion, gunfire, or the like. The death is accelerated by human intervention. It is the opposite of natural death which occurs due to natural reasons. It says human intervention,meaning that the death of the victims was caused by another humans.
-- could you provide some links to the above (is it a quote? or a supposition ?)
Loose-Cannon
14-09-2017 17:42 (GMT)
"The rapid expansion of the aortic arch (an aortic arch aneurysm) was probably due to inhalation pulmonary edema, sudden pressure spikes and blood clotting after receiving poisoning and a large dose of irradiation (blood, as it were, boils in the veins) and venous stasis."
From what I understand, methanol (form of alcohol) can be irradiated, and it use in Russian oil fields? at the time was extensive. The point is...... Methanol poisoning>>>> blood boil (think Bends)>>> enlarged aorta. There is another long section regarding the radiation found on the clothing with interviews, interrogation quotes and all all the facts including the actual reports that I haven't gotten to yet.
Aortas 3 Times the size they should be..... Fact
John Wolfe
14-09-2017 17:38 (GMT)
Hi Anna, re: your post -- Anna Yordanova 09-14-2017 17:04 (GMT) -- you are right that initially some thought there must have been attackers -- they, at first, erroneously presumed the Mansi hunters had attacked the hikers -- or some sort of fight occurred -- but there was no evidence to support this. This is why they all refer to some sort of :"unknown compelling force" .... and some add "of nature".
John Wolfe
14-09-2017 17:05 (GMT)
re: Lyndasez 09-14-2017 00:03 (GMT) quoting your post -- "... some of these guys seem like class clowns some athletes...Dyatlov I see weight trained and is the Leader of this bunch ... "
--- NONE OF THESE GUYS/GIRLS WERE CLASS CLOWNS ! they were undergraduate and graduate students at Ural Polytechnic Institute -- which is like the MIT or Stanford U of the Soviet Nation. (though much smaller and not nearly as well funded) They were (highly valuable) students in engineering and the sciences; some already working in their field while they studied.
-- as for all the talk of love and kissing -- what else do 20'something college students talk about when they are relaxing?
-- (from the "hikers" drop down in this site) -- as for:
Igor Alekseievich Dyatlov
Born on Jan. 13, 1936, Russian Federation
He was the leader of the ill-fated hiking group; the whole incident is named after him. He was a student of the 5th Faculty of Radio Engineering at UPI university. A talented engineer, he designed and assembled a radio during his 2nd year that was used during hikes in 1956 in the Sayan Mountains. He also designed a small stove that he used after 1958 by Dyatlov himself and that he had brought with him on this trip. People who knew Igor described him as a thoughtful man who never rushed with his decisions. He courted Zina Kolmogorova who also took part in the hike. Igor Dyatlov was one of the most experienced athletes in the group.
He was 23 years old when he died.
-- please note: Igor was chosen for the group leader because he had led groups in that area before -- more than one time. This was a school club.
-- as for Zina'a comment in your post ( "diary entry: "Igor all evening was rude, I didn't recognize him. I had to sleep on the wood near the stove." ....... sometimes the group leader has to tell someone its their turn to sleep next to the stove .... ALSO -- evidence shows that the stove was not set up that last night -- way too windy! -- and no outside fire nor wood to burn.
Anna Yordanova
14-09-2017 17:04 (GMT)
Violent death refers to death resulting from a sharp blow, stabbing, explosion, gunfire, or the like. The death is accelerated by human intervention. It is the opposite of natural death which occurs due to natural reasons. It says human intervention,meaning that the death of the victims was caused by another humans.
Nigel Evans
14-09-2017 16:28 (GMT)
@LC - "PERHAPS GOOGLE METHANOL IRRADIATION. " Because i didn't understand how methanol could irradiate i did google the above. And i still don't understand...
Loose-Cannon
14-09-2017 16:25 (GMT)
In addition.... Imma bout to throw this auto-correcting phone out the freakin window. Its as bad as Nigel.... Thinks I need it to do my thinking for me!
Loose-Cannon
14-09-2017 16:22 (GMT)
Nigel.... I didn't think if was possible for you to be mire dense, I was wrong!
FYI, microwave irradiation is NOT the only form of irradiation. I SUGGEST YOU GO EDUCATE YOURSELF.... PERHAPS GOOGLE METHANOL IRRADIATION.
THE WORD 'MICROWAVE' WAS NEVER STATED IN MY POST, and if you don't think their aorta being TRIPLE THE SIZE it should be.... YOUR A BONIFIDE IDIOT
John Wolfe
14-09-2017 16:19 (GMT)
re: KMM 09-13-2017 20:07 (GMT) the intelligent ask WHY DID THE MANSI NAME THE TWO MOUNTAINS --- DEAD MOUNTAIN --- and --- DON'T GO THERE ---
That has been explained in almost all websites I've read, maybe you should try reading some.
---- why don't you quote a few instead of spouting off about stuff you haven't read --- all the accounts I've read say that they Mansi named the mountains such because of a hunting party which was killed by the gods -- who looked like balls of light -- how much clearer do you need it ? If they had the word "explosion" or "explodes" in their lexicon they probably would have used that word too.
John Wolfe
14-09-2017 16:02 (GMT)
re: Loose-Cannon 09-13-2017 10:57 (GMT) containing several references to the word "violent"
"Death is violent - an accident. SUD.MED.EXPERT OF THE REGIONAL BUREAU OF SUDMEDEKSPERTIZY - signature / REVIVAL / COURT.MED.EXPERT OF THE CITY OF NORTH-URALSK - signature / LAPTEV / "
and -- "Bodily injuries of the soft tissues of the head region and "bath skin" of the limbs are posthumous changes in the body of Thibault Brignol, which was recently found in the water. The death of Thibault Brignoles is violent."
and -- "The death of Zolotarev is violent."
and -- "The body injuries found on the body of Kolevatov are in the head area - defects in soft tissues, as well as "bath" skin, are posthumous changes in a corpse that was recently found before it was found in the water. Kolevatov's death is violent."
from your quote, please note:
--- you all misconstrue the word "violent" to mean an attack (you watch too much television and movies) -- but as stated in your post above their meaning is clear "violent" here means broken bones and internal injuries -- as they then say (elsewhere) like an "auto accident"
--- special note to all: this "auto accident" in no way implies that someone drove a car over the nine hikers -- and none of you are claiming this -- yet you all construe "violent" as if it meant an attack -- it does not -- if a TREE fell on you and killed you -- that would also be "violent" -- but no one would suggest that the tree "attacked" you.
Nigel Evans
14-09-2017 15:21 (GMT)
@LC - "a large dose of irradiation (blood, as it were, boils in the veins)" - i thought you were against the microwave theory? i'd add expansion due to freezing to the list.
Where's this bombshell thingy?
Sandy
14-09-2017 14:59 (GMT)
This morning on my way to work, an orange BL appeared during the rainstorm and bounced along beside me for awhile. Then it was off looking for some ribs to break.....
I saw it again later & it had found its way inside one of the cars & was banging the drivers' skull against the window....
Then it disappeared in a poof.
Loose-Cannon
14-09-2017 13:00 (GMT)
"The aorta (lat ..arteria ortha, a.ortha - a straight artery) is the largest unpaired arterial vessel of the great circle of blood circulation in the human body. It comes out of the left ventricle, its beginning is the aortic opening. From the aorta all arteries that form a large circle of blood flow away. The aorta is divided into three sections: the ascending part of the aorta, the arch of the aorta and the descending part of the aorta. https://image.ibb.co/dp6COk/255px_aorta_scheme.jpg .
The arch of the aorta with its convexity is facing upward. From the bulge go three large vessels: the brachiocephalic trunk, the left common carotid artery and the left subclavian artery.
The brachiocephalic trunk at the level of the right sternoclavicular joint is divided into two branches: the right common carotid artery and the right subclavian artery. Heading from the front to the bottom, the aortic arch at the level III of the thoracic vertebra passes into the descending part of the aorta.
Most recently, based on thousands of studies, doctors made an interesting conclusion that the age of a person can be determined from the width of the aorta!
The aorta in humans is expanded twice - initially to 20-22 years, for the second time after 40 years.
Analysis of the metric data of men of different ages was carried out after studies of the aorta without pronounced atherosclerotic deformation and putrefactive changes. As a result of this analysis, forensic experts noticed an amazing feature - the width of the aorta varies with age.
As we can see, the widest part of the aortic arch in part "D" in healthy people under the age of 25 years should not exceed 5 cm.
Publication. "Actual issues of forensic medicine and expert practice, Barnaul-Novosibirsk 2011. 17 » (SME EM Skaryukin, head of the Elizovsky Interdistrict Office) http://journal.forens-lit.ru/node/453
Perhaps, about this feature of the aorta Vozrozhdenniy B.A. in 1959 did not yet know, but the size of the aorta in the dead were strange:
The width of the aortic arch above the valves:
Kolevatov Alexander 7 cm Thibo-Brignol Nicholas - 8.5 cm Igor Dyatlov - 8 cm of Kolmogorova Zina - 8 cm Doroshenko Yuri - 8,5 cm
It turns out that in 5 children, the Vozrozhdenniy recorded that the width of the aortic arch was increased for some reason. Such dimensions of the width of the aortic arch correspond to the size of the organ of a sick person or person aged over 70 years. But all the guys were healthy and athletic people!
As a result, in a short period of time, the width of the aortic arch could increase in healthy athletes?
The rapid expansion of the aortic arch (an aortic arch aneurysm) was probably due to inhalation pulmonary edema, sudden pressure spikes and blood clotting after receiving poisoning and a large dose of irradiation (blood, as it were, boils in the veins) and venous stasis.
Loose-Cannon
14-09-2017 12:37 (GMT)
"they seem to act as a cooperating group who are forced to leave the tent"
Except that the group split not once, but twice.... I do however like the word "seem" as its slightly less factual.
they seem to act as a cooperating group who are forced to leave the tent and crucially forced to stay away for some time. The latter is one of the key points for the BL theory and imo defeats an internal violence scenario for the simple reason that there would have been a rapid fight with fatalities and a surviving group and they would have returned to the tent for their stuff asap"
Key points for the BL theory eh? There is ZERO evidence they were 'forced' to stay away from the tent. In fact, three of them WERE apparently returning to the tent when they perished. You also have absolutely no idea at what point in time or how quickly said return attempt/attempts happened. Quite the imagination for inventing facts.
Nigel Evans
14-09-2017 09:45 (GMT)
@KMM - 2EDIT : I have yet to see any, as it pertains to the DPI "
@LC - bombshell away my little buddy, my BL armour can stop anything... (you've got...).
Nigel Evans
14-09-2017 09:37 (GMT)
@LC - Several rubbish posts there, nothing for me to comment on except to ask what is it you're smoking? It would be completely logical to assume that the rav4 had also died, they left their outer clothing in the tent. The siberian winter would do the rest.
@Lyndasez - hi, good to hear what Lynda says. A problem with the internal strife theory is that Yudin didn't flag it and he was there. SZ was well accepted etc etc. Also all of the photos and their newspaper demonstrate a very friendly group. It's possible of course for tensions to suddenly surface but i don't see it in their actions, they seem to act as a cooperating group who are forced to leave the tent and crucially forced to stay away for some time. The latter is one of the key points for the BL theory and imo defeats an internal violence scenario for the simple reason that there would have been a rapid fight with fatalities and a surviving group and they would have returned to the tent for their stuff asap. But all of the events seem to show a timeline lasting say 2 hours. It would have taken time to get down the hill, build a fire, the 2 yuris were turned after lividity had frozen in which takes time. so it seems reasonable for say a couple of hours away from the tent. So what was keeping them away for so long standing in their socks? What was that compelling force?
Imo the key question isn't what made them leave the tent but what kept them away from all their gear with which they could easily survive long term. The labaz was well stocked with food all they needed was that gear, but they didn't go back to the tent for it instead built a fire and a den. Finally when three of them did try they all expired within 330m.
Something kept them away and frustrated their return.
Loose-Cannon
14-09-2017 01:35 (GMT)
Hey Nigel buddy ole pal.... You wanna see the bombshell?
Loose-Cannon
14-09-2017 00:40 (GMT)
Oh boy... Your brother Ivanov again!
Acts of forensic medical examination of the corpses of the last four were signed only by prosecutor-criminalist Ivanov and forensic expert Vozrozhdenniy.
Signatures under the act of court. Med. Studies of the corpses of Ivanov and the forensic expert of the Vozrozhdenniy
The forensic expert Vozrozhdenniy on the document did not put his seal, the signature of the third person - criminalist expert Churkina is absent. Acts of the last four are invalid.
What happened, why the Rebellion could not execute the order from above and write to all the dead the cause of death "freezing" - remains a mystery, it is also unknown what kind of injuries the guys actually had. Vozrozhdenniy did not attach to the media report (forensic medical research) photographs from the mortuary corpses of Alexander Kolevatov and Thibault Nikolai.
Along with this, the media reports contain some details about the absence of eyes and tongue from corpses, which gave the tragedy a bit of mysticism. Extricated for some reason in all the stories, together with the artificially created and widespread myth of the mountain of the dead, these "details" fuel an interest in the tragedy and make people feel fear from an unknown "spontaneous force".
(Bat in hand) oh your boy Ivanov is the one covering shit up alright.
Loose-Cannon
14-09-2017 00:13 (GMT)
@Lyndasez
Something along those lines is exactly what may have happened in my opinion. Glad I'm not the only one that sees the tension and Igor's ability to go postal. That boy aint right!!!
Loose-Cannon
14-09-2017 00:08 (GMT)
"Prosecutor criminalist of the Prosecutor's Office of the Sverdlovsk region ml. Counselor of Justice Ivanov, having examined the criminal case on the death of hikers in the Ivdelsky district, because the case of the death of students was instituted on February 28, 1959 and the investigation term expired on April 28, 1959 and being guided by Art. 116 of the Code of Criminal Procedure of the RSFSR, decided to initiate a petition to the prosecutor of the Sverdlovsk region to extend the investigation until May 28, 1959.
In this Resolution, Ivanov writes:
"In February 1959, a group of hikers from the Ural Polytechnic Institute consisting of 9 people died in the height area marked" 1079 "in the Northern Urals , the corpses of five hikers and part of the group's equipment were found by the search, the troupes of the remaining participants were not found. In connection with the non-discovery of other participants in the hike, it is not possible to establish finally the cause of the death of hikers and the perpetrators of this, and the meteorological conditions of the area of ??death do not allow to carry out prospecting works on a scale that would allow finding other participants in the hike. "
Ivanov writes that a group of 9 people died , but the corpses of 4 members of the group had not been found by that time!"
Ivanov.... What a genius! Are you related Nigel?
Lyndasez
14-09-2017 00:03 (GMT)
I've been reading about this for a few days now.... Seen everything from great balls of fire, aliens, rocket ships and yetis...to blame. If anyone has come across a psychological profile of this crew, I'd like to see it. From reading the documents on this site: https://sites.google.com/site/hibinaud/home/akt-issledovania-trupa-datlova-igora and others. I'm leaning towards this scenario. In their journals the ladies made mention of arguing between the guys, before and during the trek. One of them is over which 2 has to sleep nearest the stove inside the tent, since it's too hot it's singed clothes, hair and socks.. The ladies had also made mention of the "red-bearded" guy at the cottage they stayed, that he's not as cerebral as they but he fascinating....and they stated most of the conversation is about love, kissing so forth. Now, some of these guys seem like class clowns some athletes...Dyatlov I see weight trained and is the Leader of this bunch...And for the sake of argument let's say Igors a bit tightly wound...Nerves are running rampant on this day-night about their 'leader,' they joke and taunt about being a bit off course, his stove is roasting them, and they make Igor twitch. Dyatlov is steamed and he physically threatened or ousted the 2, (their coats and boots near Igor and the entry) sent them out where they build a fire till he cools off. Zina took up for the guys...it's inhuman to make them suffer...she got served a foot plant in the side. She threatened to leave and he blocked passageway and went postal. (Her diary entry: "Igor all evening was rude, I didn't recognize him. I had to sleep on the wood near the stove." Igor threatened everyone and they make an escape, high tailed out through the side they cut in the tent which incensed him more and he took after them. They stumbled across the 2 left outside, grab a bit of their clothes, run and stumbled into the ravine. Ludmilla runs up the side of the ravine an clunks her chest, tries to make it up by the guys, misses and came down hard on her chin maybe severing her tongue. After Dyatlov run everyone off he pursued Zina who Rustem placed himself between to keep her from harm... Odd man out, Dyatlov is in the middle of everyone, map wise ...
Slice n dice it...
Loose-Cannon
13-09-2017 21:14 (GMT)
Some* I hate my damn phone
Loose-Cannon
13-09-2017 21:07 (GMT)
Aome people just need to have their twig/berries tied to an automatic garage door and toss the remote to the neighbors dog to play with!
EDIT : I have yet to see any, as it pertains to the DPI
John Wolfe
13-09-2017 20:01 (GMT)
the ignorant see murder theories everywhere -- the intelligent ask WHY DID THE MANSI NAME THE TWO MOUNTAINS --- DEAD MOUNTAIN --- and --- DON'T GO THERE --- ? must be a reason guys --- they named the two about 100 years before the DPI --- so, what's your theory on that ??? are they psychic --- maybe they time travel and no one has noticed that its always the same guy ...............
KMM
13-09-2017 19:59 (GMT)
Nigel Evans 13-09-2017 19:03 (GMT) @KMM - "absence of evidence is not evidence of BL " Correct but evidence of BL is evidence of BL.
I have yet to see any ................................................... Surprisingly, one of the most extraordinary and astonishing versions came from none other than Lev Ivanov himself. In 1990, the retired Prosecutor published an article, “The Enigma of the Fireballs”, where he admitted that in spring of 1959, under “When E. P. Maslennikov and I examined the scene in May, we found that some young pine trees at the edge of the forest had burn marks, but those marks did not have a concentric form or some other pattern. There was no epicenter. This once again confirmed that heated beams of a strong, but completely unknown, at least to us, energy, were directing their firepower toward specific objects (in this case, people), acting selectively.” It is worth noting that later on, Kirilenko professed a lively interest in the UFO’s, and received memos about sightings of unidentified objects from the Chairman of the KGB, Andropov.
Sandy
13-09-2017 19:34 (GMT)
It's really no wonder all the people that used to post here are gone except for Nigel.
You've run everybody off with your senseless babble about ball lightning.
I'm sure you laugh your f*cking ass off at a lot of stupid shit.
May a BL light your way home tonite asshat.
Nigel Evans
13-09-2017 19:22 (GMT)
@LC - please address your observations to "Mr Testicular Fortitude".
Loose-Cannon
13-09-2017 19:17 (GMT)
Wow... Nigel. I cannot believe you utterly refuse to post that sentence without quotations.
Man-card denied.... I'm not holding your purse.
Nigel Evans
13-09-2017 19:08 (GMT)
@LC - leave my pink tutu out of this.
Nigel Evans
13-09-2017 19:07 (GMT)
@Sandy - it's not my mission to educate the ignorant. That's LC's job!
Nigel Evans
13-09-2017 19:03 (GMT)
@KMM - "absence of evidence is not evidence of BL " Correct but evidence of BL is evidence of BL.
"I think his view was a UFO that TARGETED the hikers. " From Ivanov :- I questioned many eyewitnesses who saw this UFO in the sub-polar Urals. By the way, I do not mean that these UFOs are connected with aliens. A UFO is an unidentified flying object, and that’s it. A lot of data speaks of the fact that [the UFOs] can be bursts of energy not understood by modern science, but which affect life and the environment. Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (p. 138). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition. "
@KMM... Look it over and see what you think. I won't dare post it all here because Nigel would likely shit a Volvo.... Perhaps have an aneurysm, or two. He would be caught on camera running through walmart wearing a pink tutu (ruffles), flipflops, a Cheeto stained wife-beater and a helmet screaming 'Ivanov is my daddy!'' 8^/ we're talking full blown meltdown of BL proportions.
Sandy
13-09-2017 18:38 (GMT)
@Nigel: I've been reading about BL & it does state that usually there is a thunderstorm. But since you make things up to fit your asinine BL theory, of course it doesn't matter to you what is written. You should watch who you call ignorant as many of your posts point to your own obsessive ignorance. As in saying that "the hikers looked calm" in their death pics. Their mouths are almost all open wide as if they died screaming. And of course, your ignorance in overlooking all their injuries, abrasions, skinned knuckles, crushed skulls, ribs, chest cavity......................"
Never once in all the sites I read did any of the BL injuries that happened to people even remotely was similar to the hikers. There were also "survivors" when the BL incidents occurred. In no way does it show that BL could have been responsible for 9 people's deaths & injuries.
The most rare and mysterious form of lightning is ball lightning. [25] A mix of fire and electricity concentrated in a fireball with a diameter of 10-30 cm, ball lightning usually appears suddenly, even in indoor conditions, during a thunderstorm. It moves quickly for several meters, can change direction, and ultimately disappears sometimes soundlessly and other times with a pop or larger explosive sound. It has a life span of several seconds, and its color is quite variable but most commonly described as white, yellow, or orange.
Ball lightning appears as glowing orbs that seem to occur during thunderstorms, usually following a lightning strike. These floating fireballs shine as brightly as a 100-watt lightbulb; can be white, yellow, orange, red or blue in color and are typically about the size of a small grapefruit, although sightings suggest they can range in size from golf ball to beach ball. Emanating from the fireball are little tendrils that seem to jerk the ball around as if it was under the power of a spastic puppeteer. They move slowly and erratically and are followed by smoke trails that form spirals around them. And after a moment, they disappear.
But of course, in your theory, the BL forced them out of the tent, made them all walk down a snowy slope without their shoes, coats, gloves......with 2 of them in their underwear & barefoot. Let's see....then the BL beat them up, crushed Rustem's skull on both sides, crushed Luda's ribs on both sides, crushed AK's ribs on one side & removed his eyeballs, removed Luda's tongue & eyeballs, crushed Yuri's chest, snapped one of their necks so it was deformed, slammed Zina across the back like a baton/rifle & continued its compelling force til all was dead.
You are an idiot N.
@LC - No, God did not kill the hikers. People did.
KMM
13-09-2017 18:25 (GMT)
Mr Testicular Fortitude 13-09-2017 17:52 (GMT) 'BL IS NOT THE ONLY POSSIBLE EXPLANATION AS TO WHAT HAPPENED AND ALL THEORIES SHALL BE CONSIDERED".
N.B. Ivanov did that before opting for the BL theory....
IDT Ivanov opted for BL, I think his view was a UFO that TARGETED the hikers.
KMM
13-09-2017 18:19 (GMT)
absence of evidence is not evidence of BL
Loose-Cannon
13-09-2017 18:08 (GMT)
Remove the quotations Nigel. Try again
Nigel Evans
13-09-2017 17:57 (GMT)
@KMM - i'll need you to expand on that one, too clever for me, maybe LC understands you :0)
@Sandy - "no thunderstorm", groan, you'd have to read the thread to understand your ignorance here, but my guess is you'll just stay ignorant.
Mr Testicular Fortitude
13-09-2017 17:52 (GMT)
'BL IS NOT THE ONLY POSSIBLE EXPLANATION AS TO WHAT HAPPENED AND ALL THEORIES SHALL BE CONSIDERED".
N.B. Ivanov did that before opting for the BL theory....
KMM
13-09-2017 17:23 (GMT)
@LC... I got the link, THX
@nigel... Arguments from ignorance[edit] (Draws a conclusion based on lack of knowledge or evidence without accounting for all possibilities) "I take the view that this lack (of enemy subversive activity in the west coast) is the most ominous sign in our whole situation. It convinces me more than perhaps any other factor that the sabotage we are to get, the Fifth Column activities are to get, are timed just like Pearl Harbor ... I believe we are just being lulled into a false sense of security." – Earl Warren, then California's Attorney General (before a congressional hearing in San Francisco on 21 February 1942). This example clearly states what appeal to ignorance is, although we have proved that the moon is not made of spare ribs, we have not proved that its core cannot be filled with them; therefore, the moon’s core is filled with spare ribs.[4]
Sandy
13-09-2017 17:01 (GMT)
There was no thunderstorm that nite for a BL to occur. Their injuries were not that of BL injuries.
Loose-Cannon
13-09-2017 16:53 (GMT)
Lets see what type of testicular fortitude and integrity Nigel has.....
Say it.... Type these words in your next reply. Read carefully and repeat after me....
'BL IS NOT THE ONLY POSSIBLE EXPLANATION AS TO WHAT HAPPENED AND ALL THEORIES SHALL BE CONSIDERED"
SAY IT!!!!!! MAN UP
Loose-Cannon
13-09-2017 16:45 (GMT)
"SZ attached to the group even though he had nothing to do with them." The University did this all the time as I have read... Besides, SZ being attached to the group in no way shape or form proves BL killed them. AND, 'if' he were kgb his mission could have been one of a thousand things such as observing the students etc as possible defectors..... Like THE UNIVERSITY WAS PARANOID OF!!
"SZ having a camera Yudin had never seen before." AGAIN I WILL QUOTE YUDIN HIMSELF!!!! "The money they bought was bought: food and various things and equipment needed in the trek, like a first aid kit, notebooks, pencils, materials for warming tents, etc., I DO NOT REMEMBER EVERYTHING. Backpacks, skis, boots, tent, ice ax and other equipment were received at the Institute. https://sites.google.com/site/hibinaud/home/dopros-svidetela-udina-u-e SZ haz a camera..... SO THE FRICK WHAT!! YOU HAVE ZERO PROOF THE CAMERA OR HIM HAVING IT WAS IN ANY WAY SPECIAL.
"Photos of lights that are attributed to SZ." AGAIN... YOU INVENT WHAT YOU SEE LIKE SEEING MICKY MOUSE IN THE CLOUDS... AND.... YOU EXPECT OTHER THEORIES TO EXPLAIN OR OTHERWISE ADHERE? TO THIS NONSENSE
"A planned route that that they didn't follow." AND???? CONDITIONS CHANGE, CIRCUMSTANCES CHANGE, PEOPLE CHANGE THE MINDS, IGOR WAS A RETARD, ACCIDENTS HAPPEN!!!!! THIS MEANS NOTHING!!!
"Deaths stated by the pathologist to be like from a bomb shockwave." LIKE....LIKE....LIKE!!...AS I STATED BEFORE... IF YOU THINK ONLY A BOMB CAN BREAK RIBS OR CRACK A SKULL, YOU LIVE A VERY SHELTERED LIFE. IT WAS ALSO STATED "FORCE OF LIKE A CAR ACCIDENT"... WHERE IS THE GD CAR!?!?!?!
"Reliable witnesses reporting lights in the sky and explosions." CAN YOU NOT HAVE REPORTS OF THIS ANYWHERE ON THE PLANET YEAR ROUND?!?! IT PROVES NOTHING!!
"And then you have all the "curiosities" - condition of the snow, hotspot, burnt trees, tanned skin, burns, three people all expire close to each other ascending the mountain." Oh for frick sakes.... AGAIN... THERE IS ZERO EVIDENCE OF BURNT TREES AND A HOTSPOT! ALL THREE BORK BORK..... AND?!?!?
There are 400 explanations to any given example..... THE SUN DID NOT RISE TODAY BECAUSE OF BL.
I know exactly what took the lives of these 9 people in 1959.... GOD!!!! PROVE ME WRONG!!!
Nigel Evans
13-09-2017 15:46 (GMT)
@LC - Laughing my head off here, any harder and i'll hurt myself...
"Murder theory.... Lets see here jackwagon, the murder theory DOES IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM NEED TO INCLUDE, EXPLAIN, OR OTHERWISE INCORPORATE YOUR THREE HEADS BULLSHIT, BURNED TREES, HOT SPOTS, MICROWAVES, COLLAPSED DEN, OR ANY OTHER HORSESHIT YOU INVENTED OR INDOCTRINATED AS GOSPEL TO FIT YOUR AGENDA. "
All very true, but it would be nice to have an explanation for that stuff (like the BL theory does). However what the murder theory DOES have to explain is the fire and the rav4 being killed by superhuman force. How many times has some idiot come on this site and explained that they foolishly lit a fire 1500m away from where the bad men had ejected them from the tent, jeez and with a WW2 veteran onboard...
"Any idiot can invent a story and create details to construct an elaborate story... Ever watch TV? " Well you and your barmy army can't....
And what facts have i made up? Facts like :-
SZ attached to the group even though he had nothing to do with them. SZ having a camera Yudin had never seen before. Photos of lights that are attributed to SZ. A planned route that that they didn't follow. Deaths stated by the pathologist to be like from a bomb shockwave. Reliable witnesses reporting lights in the sky and explosions. And then you have all the "curiosities" - condition of the snow, hotspot, burnt trees, tanned skin, burns, three people all expire close to each other ascending the mountain.
All of those FACTS can be explained by a microwave ball lightning theory as postulated by some of our finest physicists whose intelligence is better yours or mine.
Time to know your place brainchild.
Loose-Cannon
13-09-2017 15:04 (GMT)
"I'm not stating them as fact, i'm stating them as part of the BL theory i'm developing (no pun) on this site"
But yet..... You ARE! Never do you state 'may have been', 'may be', 'could have', 'perhaps' etc. If your keys are a clickin.... Your making up facts as you go along. Whats astonishing to me is the FACT that you think ALL NON BL THEORIES AND DETAILS MUST BE COMPARED TO AND/OR ALIGN WITH THE LIES YOU HAVE INVENTED. Example, A non BL theory does NOT need to explain or incorporate into detail why YOUR crazy ass fantasy shit is/isn't. THAT'S YOUR DOINGS AND YOUR FICTIONAL RATIONALIZATIONS.
Murder theory.... Lets see here jackwagon, the murder theory DOES IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM NEED TO INCLUDE, EXPLAIN, OR OTHERWISE INCORPORATE YOUR THREE HEADS BULLSHIT, BURNED TREES, HOT SPOTS, MICROWAVES, COLLAPSED DEN, OR ANY OTHER HORSESHIT YOU INVENTED OR INDOCTRINATED AS GOSPEL TO FIT YOUR AGENDA.
"Unlike your pathetic efforts so far, the BL theory has the uncanny knack of fitting/eplaining ALL the facts. Any idiot can construct a theory that partially explains the story leaving out the bits that don't fit, but so far afaik the only story to explain everything is BL."
Again... Brainchild, pay attention. You made up the stupid facts.... WE do not have to base other theories around them. FACT The BL explains NOTHING!.... You know why??? BECAUSE ITS ALL BEEN BUILT ON YOUR FICTIONAL LIES. FYI.... Any idiot can invent a story and create details to construct an elaborate story... Ever watch TV?
Unreal... Folks.. this guy has ZERO respect for anyone having a differing opinion and displays utter distain and contempt for anyone whom does not tow the BL line and suck his toes. He thinks YOUR theory must explain HIS elaborate fantastical made-up crap. Wow
Nigel Evans
13-09-2017 13:46 (GMT)
"Rediculous how you state these wild claims as if they were fact. Where did you come up with this secret kgb super special camera crap? "
I'm not stating them as fact, i'm stating them as part of the BL theory i'm developing (no pun) on this site.
This theory has it that SZ was KGB, equipped with a secret camera he hid from the others to photograph lights in the sky (probably that had been previously reported by military aircrew and known from mansi legend). So it follows that the camera would be state of the art for that period and SZ would be trained to use it. Hence the difference in quality between SZ's shots and YK and RS's efforts. That this photography was his mission explains the detour.
Unlike your pathetic efforts so far, the BL theory has the uncanny knack of fitting/eplaining ALL the facts. Any idiot can construct a theory that partially explains the story leaving out the bits that don't fit, but so far afaik the only story to explain everything is BL..
Nigel Evans
13-09-2017 13:25 (GMT)
just adding my thoughts on gulags and the brutality of the system, all prisoners in all prisons have to strip and leave their civilian clothes behind, the twist with Soviet era prisons was that each new intake of female prisoners undressed in front of a gathering of male prison officers in order for the pecking order to determine who got what...
Loose-Cannon
13-09-2017 13:18 (GMT)
"And it's hard to explain why SZ needed a secret camera apparently setup for night photography"
Rediculous how you state these wild claims as if they were fact. Where did you come up with this secret kgb super special camera crap?
Nigel Evans
13-09-2017 12:52 (GMT)
and the reason that the detour was necessary was because of the high winds whipping up the snow/graupnel. Just 200m down from the ridge puts a lot of whirling snow between you and an aerial object. The original published route was to make for Otorten in a fairly straight line through the higher reaches of the forest near the treeline. But the high winds coming from the West killed that idea and forced an alternative route following the ridge. This is why ID records in the last entry of the diary "We had supper right in the tent. It's warm. It is hard to imagine such a comfort somewhere on the ridge, with a piercing wind, hundreds kilometers away from human settlements.".
Loose-Cannon
13-09-2017 12:50 (GMT)
KMM... I sent you a message.
FYI.... Gulags name changed and the release of non violent offenders doesn't mean squat. Its well known prisoners have escaped and found refuge or hid out in the backwoods of the urals. These people can and have been in the wild for decades, so even a name change in early 50s is moot. Talk to me about gulags, by grandmother inlaw was in one during ww2 assembling rockets and subsidizing a lack of diet by eating glycerin. Her brother lost a hand for stealing bread.
Loose-Cannon
13-09-2017 12:41 (GMT)
The debate of violence, the definition of 'violent', and the interpretation of the autopsies can go on for an eternity. Can we move forward now boss?
Nigel Evans
13-09-2017 11:59 (GMT)
@LC - i think you might be confusing their use of "violent". They mean not natural, a sudden unexpected event, like a fall or crushed by snow. i.e. accident = violent.
As said MANY TIMES now, the BL theory has several versions and the simplest is that BL scares them away from the tent and the rest is just bad luck, falling from trees, crushed by snow. Although i would favour a BL theory that kills the rav4 with an explosion.
Also as said before if it was a military accident/cockup then there's ABSOLUTELY NO NEED for that expensive investigation.
And it's hard to explain why SZ needed a secret camera apparently setup for night photography. Even why he was there at all. Couldn't be to stop a possible defection, one against several others with knives/axes. He was there to photograph something, that's why they made an uncomfortable detour depriving themselves of a night in the forest with a warm stove.
Loose-Cannon
13-09-2017 11:58 (GMT)
Followed* stupid phone
Loose-Cannon
13-09-2017 11:57 (GMT)
In my opinion.... We are likely looking at a combination of events that killed these people. One unfortunate event fallowed by another..
Loose-Cannon
13-09-2017 11:52 (GMT)
And for the record, I never stated "beat to death"... I said "beat to shit".
We all know 5 of them froze to death and their injuries were not the cause if death. When you don't read "cause if death is violent", that does NOT mean there were no injuries with a possible cause of hand/hand combat. It just means said injuries didn't cause the heart to stop.
Please note... The methanol theory does not explain the injuries of the tent3 or cedar2. I am exploring any and all theories simultaneously.
Loose-Cannon
13-09-2017 11:35 (GMT)
The author has more of an alignment with the crushed by snow idea, although by more of a slide within the ravine.
Really dude? Im finding this in NON rav4 files.
"Taking into account the above bodily injuries, Slobodin could move and crawl in the first hours from the moment of their infliction. The death of Slobodin is violent - an accident."
Nigel Evans
13-09-2017 11:17 (GMT)
"This theory involves no such explosion that I have come across as of yet. " Well how do the rav4 get their injuries then?
Nigel Evans
13-09-2017 11:15 (GMT)
Yes the rav4 deaths were violent (i.e. not natural causes) but not human violence....
Repeating my post below because you obviously haven't read it.
Nigel Evans 09-09-2017 14:23 (GMT) From the official files - "Decision on the termination." - This seems to be the formal closing statement of the DPI investigation. It is the official result of circa 30 men (supplied by helicopters at huge cost) investigating for three months.
"and, as it was established in the subsequent forensic expertise, the leeward side of the tent where the hikers were headlong , was cut from the inside in two places, in areas that provide a free exit of a person through these sections."
"Neither traces of the struggle nor the presence of other people were found in the tent or near it."
"Forensic medical examination found that Dyatlov, Doroshenko, Krivonischenko and Kolmogorov died from the action of low temperature (frozen), none of them had physical injuries, not counting minor scratches and abrasions. Slobodin had a crack in the skull 6 cm long, which had spread to 0.1 cm, but Slobodin died from cooling."
"The investigation did not establish the presence on February 1 or 2, 1959 in the area of ??the "1079" height of other people, except for the group of hikers Dyatlov. It is also established that the population of Mansi, living in 80-100 km from this place, is Russian friendly, presents hikers, lodges, helps them, etc. The place where the group died, in winter time it is considered Mansi unsuitable for hunting and reindeer breeding."
"Given the absence of external injuries and signs of struggle on all corpses, the presence of all the values ??of the group, and also taking into account the conclusion of forensic medical examination of the causes of death of hikers, it should be considered that the reason for the death of hikers was the spontaneous force that hikers were unable to overcome ."
Loose-Cannon
13-09-2017 11:00 (GMT)
"Methanol, at last a half decent theory, an explosive vapour being released from perhaps a rocket launch. It gives you a reason for leaving the tent and a cause of an explosion"
I dont think so... This theory involves no such explosion that I have come across as of yet. The explosion is only needed in a BL scenario Nigel.... There isn't any evidence if an explosion to begin with.
Loose-Cannon
13-09-2017 10:57 (GMT)
"I'm with the official report, no signs of violence"
Nigel... You know as well as I do that each official report states something similar as follows.
"Death is violent - an accident. SUD.MED.EXPERT OF THE REGIONAL BUREAU OF SUDMEDEKSPERTIZY - signature / REVIVAL / COURT.MED.EXPERT OF THE CITY OF NORTH-URALSK - signature / LAPTEV / "
And another...
"Bodily injuries of the soft tissues of the head region and "bath skin" of the limbs are posthumous changes in the body of Thibault Brignol, which was recently found in the water. The death of Thibault Brignoles is violent."
And.... Another.
"The death of Zolotarev is violent."
And another!!
"The body injuries found on the body of Kolevatov are in the head area - defects in soft tissues, as well as "bath" skin, are posthumous changes in a corpse that was recently found before it was found in the water. Kolevatov's death is violent."
So... Your with the case files, but yet you either lie about the contents of the case files, or you do not read them. Which is it?
Nigel Evans
13-09-2017 10:22 (GMT)
@Sandy - "I can't understand how anyone that reads & studies all 9 autopsies could possibly think anything else happened BUT that they had the crap just kicked/beat out of them." I'm with the official report, no signs of violence. Cold, predation, previous weeks strenuous activity, maybe an internal row and a fight, but not one serious injury that is clearly of human cause.
@LC - "Unbelievable hypocrisy!!! ". Nonsense, your answer was in an earlier post?
@KMM - "After this time, not a single record and not a single photograph was found. " - i think YK's and RS's blobs were assumed to be erroneous. Could be correct of course. Assuming SZ's photos are genuine, it's probable that they were KGB property and the police/prosecutor never saw them.
@LC - Methanol, at last a half decent theory, an explosive vapour being released from perhaps a rocket launch. It gives you a reason for leaving the tent and a cause of an explosion. But you've got to explain the time lag between the tent and the explosion, afaik the 2yuris need to be dead for about an hour before turning for the lividity to be incorrect. The vat of alcohol is supposed to be to wash radioactive dust off. Russian submariners were apparently given a ration each week to wash with. Haven't come across the other chemicals being discussed before, could have been some embalming process perhaps, think this is common in the US today.
John Wolfe
13-09-2017 05:42 (GMT)
note about the gulags: --- they closed in 1956 -- or at least the Wiki site on "gulag": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag says the last administrator was: " Sergei Yegorovich Yegorov October 5, 1954 – April 4, 1956 " Of course there were other (un-named)systems until the 1980's. The map on the gulag page doesn't show any old gulag camps near where the 9 hikers were in the Urals. Of interest might be this Wiki on the Norilsk Uprising of 1953 -- non violent and no weapons : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norilsk_uprising
or this on the political relaxing in the 1950's : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khrushchev_Thaw this is a time when Khrushchev was closing down the old Stalin system of repression. So we are left with no gulag prisoners in 1959, and no motivation for any ex-prisoners to kill anyone. Soviets were happy with the way the government was opening up.
KMM
13-09-2017 04:25 (GMT)
Loose-Cannon 13-09-2017 04:02 (GMT) KMM... Join my board at sksfiles.com under the same name and I'll message you some material of interest. I don't feel like posting my email for all the trolls
Yeah, I got a couple throwaways I keep for that
KMM
13-09-2017 04:22 (GMT)
Done, ....I think
Loose-Cannon
13-09-2017 04:02 (GMT)
KMM... Join my board at sksfiles.com under the same name and I'll message you some material of interest. I don't feel like posting my email for all the trolls
KMM
13-09-2017 03:52 (GMT)
Loose-Cannon 13-09-2017 02:52 (GMT) Lots more information inbound when everyone gets done digesting. Let me know when.
I've got reading time left, don't know if anyone else here
Loose-Cannon
13-09-2017 03:45 (GMT)
Sorry about the repeat sentence in the last post.
Loose-Cannon
13-09-2017 03:44 (GMT)
Just a little off topic, but I thought this was also interesting. Tortured in the cold and didn't confess. Im impressed!
"March 12, 1959
Secret order deputy. prosecutor of the Sverdlovsk region Yu.N. Achimin to investigate the involvement of Mansi in the death of the Dyatlov group Secret order deputy. prosecutor of the Sverdlovsk region Yu.N. Achimin to investigate the involvement of Mansi in the death of the Dyatlov group Deputy Prosecutor of the Sverdlovsk Region for Special Forces Yu.N. Achimin gives a secret task to the deputy head of the Ivdel police department of the Interior Ministry, Major Bizyayev, to investigate Mansi, who might have witnessed the incident at Mount Oorten.
On the basis of this instruction, the police detain several people and torture them in the cold, knocking out their testimony about what they could see or know about the incident, in fact, the police authorities intimidate them. But after a while, making sure that people do not know anything about the incident, they release them.
I read about the barrel of ethanol being used for cleanup somewhere awhile back but never connected anything to it
Loose-Cannon
13-09-2017 02:52 (GMT)
Lots more information inbound when everyone gets done digesting. Let me know when.
KMM
13-09-2017 02:41 (GMT)
Methanol poisoning ....hmm....very possible
Loose-Cannon
13-09-2017 02:24 (GMT)
Literally parts of the investigation that were never made public..... I wonder why
"Kikoin AK went to the search site. A group of climbers examined the area of ??the tent and the surrounding area for avalanche danger. https://image.ibb.co/h5NYuF/lav2.jpg . https://image.ibb.co/cEhYuF/lav4.jpg . What conclusions were drawn by the Moscow specialists as a result of the conducted studies is not known"
Loose-Cannon
13-09-2017 02:12 (GMT)
And.... There is your melted and refrozen crunchy ice. You should recognize the boulder located just east of the tent location.
"4 days members of the route-qualification commission of the All-Union hiker Section from Moscow K. Bardin and E. Shuleshko, along with Maslennikov E.P. conducted a thorough survey of the entire terrain heights of 1079 and 880, the valleys of the 4th tributary of Lozva and the shores bounding it, the pass from Lozva to Auspiyu, the valley of the river.
This structure was under the feet of Maslennikov snow, which melted under the influence of chemical precipitation. What conclusions were made by the members of the commission as a result of research on the terrain and what was reported to the top management is unknown."
Loose-Cannon
13-09-2017 01:50 (GMT)
Its science! Two autopsies!
"The act of investigating the corpse of Slobodin Rustem was written as if by a carbon copy with the acts of investigating the corpses of Dyatlov, Kolmogorova, Doroshenko and Krivonischenko. After the autopsy of the dead was done in Ivdel, the corpses were sent to the Sverdlovsk military morgue, where they conducted a second autopsy to determine the causes of death. The morgue, to identify the bodies of Igor Dyatlov and Rustem Slobodin, the tenth participant of the trek Yuri Yudin arrived. He noticed the dark brown color of the uncovered and processed corpse of Igor Dyatlov, the color of Rustem Slobodin's unprocessed corpse was ordinary. Later, the unusual dark color of all the corpses will be spoken by those present at the funerals of the children. In the acts of SME, the color of the skin of corpses is described as reddish purple, after the morgue the color of the corpses changed and acquiredbrown shade, which was noticed at the funeral. Methanol in the gastrointestinal tract is converted dangerous poison - formaldehyde, This poison was in the corpses. To neutralize formaldehyde potassium permanganate (manganese) is used. When formaldehyde reacts with potassium permanganate, a violent reaction occurs accompanied by a high temperature, as a result of which formaldehyde rapidly boils and evaporates. Skin color acquires a tan color. To treat the corpses in order to oxidize the methyl alcohol and volatilize the formaldehyde bodies, apparently potassium permanganate (potassium permanganate) was used. After treatment with manganese corpses acquired a brownish color, this unusual dark color surprised those present at the funeral."
Loose-Cannon
13-09-2017 01:33 (GMT)
Now this sorta stuff is INTERESTING!!
"Sud.med.expert of the regional forensic medical examination bureau Vozrozhdenniy Prosecutor of Sverdlovsk Region State Counselor of Justice of the 3rd class Klinov Prosecutor criminalist of the regional prosecutor's office jr. counselor of justice Ivanov, witnesses: Gordo, Naskichev
The re-established put a seal of the forensic expert on the document. The case was made, the true cause of death is hidden ... The role of the orderly in the Ivdelsky morgue, due to lack of it, had to be done by Korotaev Vladimir Ivanovich. He worked with corpses to hand over to Sverdlovsk the bodies of those killed for histology (the conclusion of which is not in the case).
His, a 22-year-old investigator, then surprised by one fact - after the opening of every corpse, everyone went about being washed with ethyl alcohol. For this, a barrel with alcohol was brought to the morgue.
Oxidation of methanol in the body occurs with the formation of stronger poisons - formaldehyde and formic acid. Antagonist (neutralizer, antidote) of methanol is ethanol (ethyl alcohol), which competes with methanol for oxidative enzymes and delays the formation of toxic metabolites of methanol. When methanol hits the body or hands, they must be washed off with plenty of water. When methanol hits special equipment. clothes, it should be removed, washed in warm water, and the body washed in a shower at least 15 / pminut.
Morgue of the "p / y H-240" section of Ivdel. Korotaev V.I. was present at the autopsy of the bodies.
There was no soul in the Ivdel morgue, so it was easier and more effective - the methanol labeled with radioactive nuclide, which was saturated with frozen bodies, and which could accidentally remain on the bodies of medical workers, was neutralized with the help of ethanol.
In Ivdel at that time there was Genrietta Eliseevna Churkina, her Korotaev VI. asked to make an examination of the tent. She drew attention to a strange shade of clothes of the dead, hung up after processing on the street.
I was present at the medical examination of corpses, which was conducted by Boris Vozrozhdenniy. I remember well, when they took off their clothes and hung them on ropes, we immediately noticed that she had some strange light purple hue, although she was of very different colors.
I asked Boris: "Do not you think that the clothes have been processed?" He agreed.
In order to exclude the possibility of erroneous use of methanol as a spirit beverage, chemical ink or another colorant of dark color, which is readily soluble in methanol, is added to it at a rate of 2-3 liters per 1000 liters of methanol.
All information from Ivdel ceased, all lived only by rumors. Only now I understand that at this time chemical analyzes of the first 3 people found were discovered, something was discovered that was secret, that it was necessary to hide and therefore all information was classified ...
I see this exposure came from SZs camera. I stand corrected by.... Myself. OMG I ACTUALLY HAVE INTEGRITY!!
Loose-Cannon
13-09-2017 01:21 (GMT)
KMM..
You are correct... The order in which the photos were taken have been mixed and matched over the years. I would assume the investigators knew full well the order in which they were taken and this proves without a doubt no photos were taken after this point. In other words.... The 'three heads' exposure was either (a) done during the developing process (in the lab) to snap the wound/ready shot before access to the film cartridge was possible, or (b) the exposure sequence came sometime before the tent was erected. In other words..... No picture was taken within the tent. End of debate with no conspiracy needed. Facts are facts Nigel. Your going to have to deal with them one way or another.
KMM
13-09-2017 00:56 (GMT)
PROSECUTOR OF THE SVERDLOVSK REGION STATE COUNCIL OF JUSTICE OF III CLASS (N. Klinov) May 28 , 1959 ......................
In one of the cameras, a frame (made last), which depicts the moment of excavation of snow for the installation of the tent, was preserved. Considering that this frame was shot with an exposure of I / 25 seconds, with a diaphragm of 5.6 at a film sensitivity of 65 Un. GOST, and also taking into account the density of the frame, it can be assumed that for the installation of the tent hikers started about 5 pm I of . II. 59. A similar picture was taken with another camera.
After this time, not a single record and not a single photograph was found.
Loose-Cannon
12-09-2017 22:04 (GMT)
I posted a DIRECT reply to that post here... 09-09-2017 16:23 (GMT
Unbelievable hypocrisy!!!
Nigel Evans
12-09-2017 21:17 (GMT)
@Sandy / @LC - "This is exactly the hypocrisy I speak of."
Try and read my posts a bit more often, e.g. - 09-09-2017 16:11 (GMT).
Might help you with your hypocrisy...
KMM
12-09-2017 20:54 (GMT)
Sandy 12-09-2017 19:03 (GMT) Hi all! I have read here where a few of you believe the 9 hikers couldn't have been murdered by people since there "were no other footprints found". It is very possible to brush away your footprints in snow.
I was just posting about footprints to show that none were found around the tent, where I would think would of been the place with the most accumulation of footprints. Whether they were removed by the weather or other individuals, IDK
Sandy
12-09-2017 19:35 (GMT)
I thought I had read this particular book, "Don't Go There" but guess I didn't. I am buying the Kindle version after reading most of the comments. I don't agree it was natives but it appears there's a lot of good info about her murdered by people theory.
Loose-Cannon
12-09-2017 19:32 (GMT)
You should respect Nigel a bit more. The man has been nothing but helpful on this subject such as it is. I check in daily to read about the new discoveries of Nigel and the "team".
Helpful to whom exactly? His followers?
I can see you have great admiration for Nigel but I will have you know, HE is the person who is incapable of respective discourse. The very second I walked into this echo chamber hornets nest, I was patronized, mocked, and disrespected. Interestingly enough, I am one of very few posters who is very comfortable in stating 'I don't know exactly what happened". I am not invested in a solitary theory in which prohibits my ability to rationalize all possibilities. Its that simple. I have noticed the BL group are very arrogant and disrespectful to anyone that does not drink from the same koolaid bowl. Heck, I even complimented Nigel a few time and the action was returned with a high/mighty arrogance in which I haven't seen in quite some time. John is just a straight up narcissistic asshole..... I call it how I see it. Just how I roll.
"User45 - nothing wrong with some harmless banter over the internet. If LC has a problem it's, well lets call it "theory envy".
I do not envy any particular theory or person.... Enough said.
@LC - "specially when desperate." - i'm happy to consider any sensible theory, particularly if it has photographs"
You are desperate in which you conduct your research, or shall I say fact inventing. Grasping for any minute unknown to twist out of common sense and often content to force-fit the BL narrative. Yeah u expect readers to read your post, but ignore theirs.
From what I see, you don't have supporting photographs of your theory either. When in doubt, throw it out.... Not when in doubt, make shit up in efforts to drive a false narrative. I give respect to those who return the favor, you burn that bridge with me and I'll be on that ass like a fly on shit.
@Sandy... This is exactly the hypocrisy I speak of. They will only observe what is visible through a narrow looking glass and reject all conflicting information and evidence. This isn't a forum of ideas and constructive conversation. It is a forum of walking the BL line or face the plank.
Sandy
12-09-2017 19:10 (GMT)
That pic of what some thought was a Yeti, looks like a person. You can tell by studying it that the arms are too skinny to be a Yeti. It looks like a human with maybe a ski mask on & winter attire.
This would coincide perfectly that the hikers were being stalked by people. I thought this pic was a hoax but now realize it really was on NTB's camera. This is proof they weren't the only people out there.
Sandy
12-09-2017 19:03 (GMT)
Hi all! I have read here where a few of you believe the 9 hikers couldn't have been murdered by people since there "were no other footprints found". It is very possible to brush away your footprints in snow.
If you are just 2 or 3 guys and in no hurry you can even step into each others tracks to appear to be only one person. Of course that wouldn't work for a whole platoon. If you have even more time, your last man can blend in your tracks by swiping through them with a pine branch manually. Less effective but faster would be simply dragging a branch behind you. The traces of the swiping will be visible but less than tracks and will also disappear faster over time with more snow or wind.
This is most efficiently done by using snowshoes or skis and moving in a single file. If the elements are with you, wind and snow will erase the trail. There was plenty of time for further snowfall to have fallen & erased the prints also. We know it snowed a lot more as the last 4 bodies were found under 12 FEET of SNOW.
@Nigel: Since you are always quoting from her book, why did you never mention that she also believes the hikers were murdered by people?
Svetlana Oss in her book "Don't Go There" believes that Khanty hunters who had taken Agaric Fly to get themselves in a killing mood killed Rustem Slobodin with a dynamic head kick and inflicted the chest injuries by jumping or bouncing on the chests of Yuri Doroshenko, Lyuda Dubinina and Semyon Zolotaryov. Svetlana claims, they wanted to avoid shooting so as to foil investigators which is why they sanitized the tent area, covering their footprints with snow and making the cuts themselves, thereafter forcing the hikers to discard clothing and footwear which is why Dyatlov's jacket and flashlight were found outside the tent.
Svetlana interprets frame №17 from Thibeaux Brignolle camera as a hunter who was following the group briefly emerged and this photo was taken before the figure retreated back into the woods. This would also explain their choice to pitch the tent away from the treeline. Zolotaryov and Thibeaux were almost fully clothed and wearing some kind of footwear.
I don't believe it as Kanty hunters, but agree with everything else she said.
@Nigel: I can't fathom either why you could possibly think anyone would have "theory envy" of your ludicrous BL nonsense. You should use some of Svetlana's quotes on how she thinks the 9 were murdered because she makes perfect sense.
I also reread ALL the hikers' autopsies & wow, only obvious almost all these people had the sh!t hit & kicked out of them. All those hand injuries & body injuries on even the ones that died from hypothermia. Like one of the experts had stated "bodies don't usually look like this & have all these hand to hand fight injuries when they're found perished from hypothermia".
I can't understand how anyone that reads & studies all 9 autopsies could possibly think anything else happened BUT that they had the crap just kicked/beat out of them.
@Jaime: Research "human mutilations". There's especially one (amongst many) where the poor guy was found deceased & most of his organs were "suctioned" out, amongst other weird, never seen b/4 suctions like that. I do believe at least that that poor soul was murdered by something not of this world. The cattle/animal mutations were done in just the same way. I do not believe other people have the knowledge/tools to perform these exact same mutations.
KMM
12-09-2017 18:53 (GMT)
@LC This is what you have to debate against? They can continue to throw in "could have's" and "might have's" all day long 24/7
"fabric COULD HAVE been getting warm/hot which MIGHT HAVE encouraged curling"
Nigel Evans
12-09-2017 18:11 (GMT)
@User45 - nothing wrong with some harmless banter over the internet. If LC has a problem it's, well lets call it "theory envy".
@LC - "specially when desperate." - i'm happy to consider any sensible theory, particularly if it has photographs.....
KMM
12-09-2017 18:01 (GMT)
On the stone ridges, the tracks disappeared, and below the stones they appeared again, and then were lost. The tracks were very well distinguishable. In separate tracks it was evident that the person was walking either barefoot or in one cotton socks, because the toes were imprinted.
KMM
12-09-2017 17:58 (GMT)
Starting from the tent at 30-40 meters, there are obvious, well-discernible traces of people's feet. Tracks ran parallel chains close to each other, as if people were going holding on to each other. The chains of traces stretched as if in two directions - 6 or 7 pairs of tracks we counted from the tent down into the hollow, and 2 more pairs of tracks were left to the left of them, about 20 meters away. Then these tracks (2 and 7 pairs) meters through 30-40 came together and did not diverge any more.
User45
12-09-2017 17:26 (GMT)
@LooseCannon
You should respect Nigel a bit more. The man has been nothing but helpful on this subject such as it is. I check in daily to read about the new discoveries of Nigel and the "team".
You have a different view than he does, thats fine, because that is exactly what's keeping Dyatlov Pass alive, I do not want you to change your view.
Just saying that we should debate with eachother, but always respectfully. For we are with the same reason here, to seek logic and reason on a very complex subject.
Loose-Cannon
12-09-2017 16:34 (GMT)
"the camera never lies"
Nope.... Just the mind and eyes of the beholder. Especially when desperate.
Nigel Evans
12-09-2017 15:51 (GMT)
Could be the wax... Could be flapping in high wind... Something made it happen, as the saying goes, the camera never lies...
Loose-Cannon
12-09-2017 14:30 (GMT)
First its canvas cooling, then canvas warming?. Whats next... Canvas change?
Cooling, welp lets see here...its Siberia, expect it to be cold. However your supposed 'heat' source is present in the "picture", so your cooling idea wouldn't apply at the time of the "photo".
Again... This is thick canvas and not your daughters tutu. Canvas by the very way its woven, does not curl as you imply. Your again reaching for extremely thin straws. But hey, at least I read your post.
Thanks for looking!!
Nigel Evans
12-09-2017 12:58 (GMT)
Think transient curling.
Nigel Evans
12-09-2017 12:54 (GMT)
"This is defeat folks...." - rolls eyes even yet again, getting dizzy with all this eye rolling...
Loose-Cannon
12-09-2017 12:47 (GMT)
Look at the pictures of the tent Nigel... Do you see curling. Better yet, do you see curling in in the slits you claimed them to be looking out of?.... You know, the ones that were not present until the rescue students arrived and did their thing....
Loose-Cannon
12-09-2017 12:26 (GMT)
"roll eyes" "rolls eyes again. No i haven't read your recent stuff, as said if it's not concise i'm not reading it."
Hi Nigel. Sounds like a compelling rebuttal. I especially enjoyed the part where you can not read something but yet claim it to be concise. Your super human skills are legendary!
This is defeat folks..... Take a good hard look.
Nigel Evans
12-09-2017 07:01 (GMT)
@LC - "that's not how canvas works" - rolls eyes. "I've already proven there was only one tear top/bottom in the middle of the tent from snow weight" - rolls eyes again. No i haven't read your recent stuff, as said if it's not concise i'm not reading it.
@all - As John has proposed the fabric could have been getting warm/hot which might have encouraged curling. Also if this was after one end of the tent had collapsed then the fabric would have been quite relaxed anyway.
So my theory would be that with the side of the tent at say 45 degrees, SZ pushed the lens past the top of the slit but still capturing the curled bottom. The shot being quite saturated from the luminosity of the object but still clearly showing the weave of the canvas both with light passing through it and on the edge of the cut.
Wrt the point that the film could simply be water damaged. The theory is that SZ was KGB seconded to the group with a specially provided camera for night photography which explains why Yudin never saw him use it for recreational photos. So it follows that this camera wasn't a standard commercial device but would have been engineered to a military specification. It was very probably waterproof.
Loose-Cannon
12-09-2017 06:34 (GMT)
Correction... Its more of a chemical poisoning (unintentional) of the kind thats odorless, tasteless, and invisible to the eye. Could have easily contaminated the area by means of a handling/transportation mishap.
Loose-Cannon
12-09-2017 06:11 (GMT)
Im currently looking at the possibility of a poisonous gas release/accident. It fits alot of the holes, but not all. I'll post something I found extremely interesting tomorrow night if I get the chance.
Loose-Cannon
12-09-2017 06:04 (GMT)
In the official reports... Only 8 tracks were found leading away from the tent. The main reasons why I don't think an outside group of people killed them is because of the lack of prints, no items were taken (including money), and I just dont see a motive. The only 'slight' motive I would contemplate is a group of gulag escaped prisoners. They don't exactly like the state to begin with and these hikers were the communist pride and joy future of the party. I can see them not having firearms and wanting to silence a group of fanatical communists that possibly discovered their whereabouts. On other group of folks that give me the willies is the loggers at the logging camp they stayed at..... Those mugs look like they are a few fries short of a happy meal for certain!
Alot of this is the reason why I think its possible for the murderer to have come from within the group. There are several diary entries that to me are clear signs of Igor not acting right, and you have several guys listing after the same gal... Stranger things have happened!
All in all, the BL theory for me is taking a back seat. The more I research it and tue more Nigel and John go on about the fantastical speculation its built upon, the more I'm turned off of the idea.
KMM
12-09-2017 04:34 (GMT)
Daniel : "but they still would have left tracks by the tents as the other hikers left tracks,
There were no tracks discernible around the tent from the Dyatlov group or anyone else.
Daniel
12-09-2017 03:35 (GMT)
Vinny, I wouldn't be so sure this is humans even though I am not putting out a theory of my own. If it was other humans who attacked the group, how come they didn't leave any tracks around the tents? I could see Mansi hunters possibly killing them for their things (possibly) but they still would have left tracks by the tents as the other hikers left tracks, and what reason would other Russians have for being all the way out there? I don't think the mystery is quite as simple as that
Loose-Cannon
11-09-2017 22:38 (GMT)
Why do I have the feeling this 'three heads' exposure is the very foundation of the BL theory?
Loose-Cannon
11-09-2017 22:28 (GMT)
Nigel, thats not how canvas works and NONE of the holes in the tent correspond to the pattern displayed in the 'three heads' photo.... Not in orientation or spacing.
Besides, I've already proven there was only one tear top/bottom in the middle of the tent from snow weight. AND, the student search team dug it out with a shovel and axe..... The shovel and axe cut the holes on the inside of the canvas because by then, sections of it were pealed/ripped back and the inside was then facing outward. Don't you read my posts? Its all right thar in the case files.
after reading and studying the photos. I can say no animal or creature did this to nine experience hikers. I've heard every theory possible and all ridiculous by physics. And this Infra sound theory is absolutely nuts after studying infra sound and the physics of it. These people were killed by other people Russia Army or the Tribal People. The human behavior of the nine experienced hikers prove this over and over.
Loose-Cannon
11-09-2017 19:40 (GMT)
Those are nearly circles Nigel... You cant get circles from slits. What section of the tent do you think these correspond to?
Nigel Evans
11-09-2017 18:58 (GMT)
@LC - fabric can curl when it's cut. No the horizontal lines are illuminated wind blown snow/graupnel passing across the shutter speed modulating as they rotate. So the slit base is horizontal.
Loose-Cannon
11-09-2017 18:27 (GMT)
If those are slits, why are they cut rounded? ;/
Are saying you believe these there slits are whats in the picture, and the camera was turned 90 degrees?
@LC - as said many times i don't see three heads, i see the bottom of a slit in the canvas with three folds and the weave letting light through (difficult to do that with fingertips...). Three heads is just the given title of the photo and has much to do with it's contents as "Jaws", "Eagle" or "Plane".
KMM
11-09-2017 16:30 (GMT)
Loose-Cannon 11-09-2017 15:37 (GMT) There was no 'tripod' and the 'three heads' photo can literally be anything. It's unreliable data, its that simple. You look at it and see three heads... I look at it and see three fingertips in front of the lens from when the developer snapped the last shot because it was pre-wound for the next exposure when found.
Exactly, i venture 3 gloved fingertips of the left hand while using the right to trip the shutter
Loose-Cannon
11-09-2017 15:37 (GMT)
There was no 'tripod' and the 'three heads' photo can literally be anything. It's unreliable data, its that simple. You look at it and see three heads... I look at it and see three fingertips in front of the lens from when the developer snapped the last shot because it was pre-wound for the next exposure when found.
Nigel Evans
11-09-2017 13:29 (GMT)
@LC - atmospheric aerosols? Doesn't explain the three heads?
@all - Here's a video from the Chilean Navy of a "UFO" demonstrating in infra red what i think SZ was photographing that night. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcNALjt6dBA . 3.00 thru to 5.43.
Here the glow discharge is sub luminous but demonstrates how the rapidly it can change shape.
So one photo could be a blob, another is a plane, another is a misty mesh etc etc.
Remember if he was a KGB field operative with a secret camera then he wasn't capturing the night sky for the fun of it. Every frame had to be justifiable, he only had say 33 frames. Nothing got wasted. Imo every one of those photos are shots of what he was seeing that night.
KMM
10-09-2017 05:00 (GMT)
It exploded, yet its still there
lyudmila isn't going anywhere Semyon isn't going anywhere Alexander isn't going anywhere Doubtful Rustim can comprehend going anywhere
John Wolfe
10-09-2017 03:25 (GMT)
re: H.K. 08-22-2017 20:14 (GMT) asked: "John, you seem experienced in camping outside in very cold nights. What would frighten you so much that you leave your tent only lightly dressed? "
-- I don't think I saw this before today so (here goes)
--- if something entered my tent -- something that I just saw explode and injure (badly injuring !) my fellow campers -- something I didn't understand -- but something very physical / as opposed to optical illusion -- something that knives and / or axes couldn't stop or injure -- if that blocked the entrance/exit and I thought was coming for me -- I'd slice my out of the other end of the tent ASAP !
Loose-Cannon
09-09-2017 23:07 (GMT)
Ill just keep posting these until you address the facts and own it.... lets start with this one.
How about Brusnitsyn.... the young hiker from the university with the party that found the tent. SURE LC, LETS GET IT ON!
"Interrogation of witness Brusnitsyn The guys at an attempt to climb the ridge height of 1079 found an abandoned tent. In the camp they brought three cameras, Slobodin's jacket, an ice ax, which was stuck near the tent, a flashlight found near the tent and a jar of alcohol. At four o'clock we were caught by a group of Kurikov with a walkie-talkie. A radiogram was immediately transmitted about what happened to the coordinates of the tent. By radio, we were given the task to organize a landing site for the helicopter landing and choose a place for the camp for 50 people."
Welp.... ya found the tent, rummaged around a bit, found the ALCOHOL of course! next..
"The tent is placed on a slope of height 1079. Entrance to the south. The steepness of the slope in this area approx. 20-25 °. Depth of snow up to 1.5 meters. A shallow pit was dug for the horizontal installation of the tent."
Welp.... It was actually South East and more East then South, but I digress! #%&@ these people are dense... next
"Under the tent put 8 pairs of skis down attachments. Thanks to the dense snow cover, the tent was installed very firmly. Everything is covered with already clammy snow, except for the southern skate, fortified on a ski pole and tied for a pair of skis. Under the northern ridge there was no stick."
Wait.... no stick! WHERE DID THIS BATON GO? Nigel will tell you it was broken to make super tactical BL capturing tripod. As if they had a VIDEO camera and deeded to keep it steady. (eyes roll) lets get it...
"Snow was chosen with the help of skis and ski poles. Ten people worked without any system. In most cases ("things" are crossed out - note ed.) Everything was pulled out directly from under the snow, so it was very difficult to determine where and how each thing lay. "
Did I read that correctly? "it was very difficult to determine where and how each thing lay" Good to know.... next!
" First they took out several blankets, frozen in a ball, then buckets, a stove, 2-3 sacks of breadcrumbs, boots, etc. The things in the tent are arranged in the following order. At the bottom of the bed rucksacks. Then 2-3 blankets. Next were the quilted jackets and personal belongings of the participants. Buckets, stove, ax, saw were lying at the entrance to the right. Here was part of the products: rusks, sugar, condensed milk, untied bag with a loin. The rest of the products were in the far right corner. Most of the shoes ("lying" - crossed out, comment ed.) Were placed on the left side of the tent. Two pairs - right in the middle. The rest of the things are in disorder in the tent."
2-3 sacks of breadcrumbs!!! Holy crap thats alot of rye bread! ("lying" - crossed out, comment ed.)... Ive seen this before.. It means the person being interviewed recanted or otherwise corrected a statement on the spot. (thumbs up). "The rest of the things are in disorder in the tent." Hey hey, HEY! The top brass man-in-charge of the tent investigation just told us there was no struggle, but yet the tent contents are in DISORDER! Leaving the tent in a hurry, a scuffle, are just sloppy Johns... I mean sloppy pigs? Whatever, you decide. next!
"Apparently the group was in the final stage of dressing and preparing for the night at the time of the incident. In the near half found a few crusts from the loin. There are rusks scattered all over the tent."
"Above all things lay a ski-slit cut into several pieces, apparently, the northern end of the tent was strengthened on it. Decide on the spoilage of the stick, given that in the group there were no substitutes it is possible only under special circumstances."
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA....... The stick (ski pole) was used as an anchor on the Northern end of the tent!!!! Actually was North West but I digress again!!! THE POINT IS..... NO FREAKING TRIPOD FOR BL VIDEO FOOTAGE. Read the GD case files!!!!!
"Where the tent was set, were about 5 hours. Nespasha dug hole, and calmly prepared for bed. About 7 o'clock something unusual still unprecedented by anybody has forced hikers to leave a tent in a panic. Running stripped, in bad weather at night from a single warm corner is possible only under pain of death. This strange phenomenon (light penetrating through the tent, sound, and possibly gases)"
And..... there ya have it. This is the first low-level BL conspiracy to surface... from a kid hiker from the university who heard of (maybe saw) Nigels famous "three heads" photo. He was interviewed some time after the incident mind you and wild stories were apparently everywhere.... You name theory... it was the talk of the town.
Loose-Cannon
09-09-2017 23:03 (GMT)
Um yeah.... pretty sure we know the story line there hoss.
Successful cover up? Since when does a funeral constitute an unsuccessful coverup? This very site wouldnt exist otherwise. If they wanted to 'publicly' solve it, they would have continued the investigation in open forum. What is this.... upside down world?
Besides... there is ample amount of evidence showing the hiker in fact, did not spy on anything through peepholes, and they quite possibly did NOT cut their way out of the tent in panic. Unfortunately for you, the entire BL theory is based false assumptions. :/ Thats why my posts have gone unchallenged.
John Wolfe
09-09-2017 22:09 (GMT)
here's some thoughts on the Soviet psyche in the 1950's -- from: http://www.viafanzine.jor.br/site_vf/pag/5/dyatlov_part01.htm
"Those golden years for the Soviet Union were also marked by an incomparable blossoming of sports tourism, especially among students. In 1957, sports tourism was officially introduced in the USSR's Single Sports Classification. The new sport quickly became popular: it gave them the opportunity to visit new places, expand their personal horizons, make new friends and chat intimately with old friends around a fire, sing songs of their own making to the sound of a guitar, their resistance and perfect their physical preparation. Clubs specialized in sports tourism were created in almost all schools and in all institutions of higher education. Twice a year - during the winter and summer holidays - crowds of young men in waterproof jackets could be found all over the country, leaving with their backpacks for the next walk.
The UPI (Russian acronym for the Ural Polytechnic Institute), now Ural State Technical University, had prominent athletes at that time. The UPI is based in the city of Sverdlovsk (now Yekaterinburg), as it was called during the Soviet era. The city was, and still is, an important technological center, inclusive, for the military-industrial complex. In the Institute that excelled in generating so many talents for Soviet engineering, Boris Yeltsin, who would become the first president of Russia, was formed in 1955.
In December of 1958, a group of university students, all experienced hikers, planned a great hiker hike in the third and highest category of difficulty. They would pass through the north of the Sverdlovsk Oblast, seeking the summit of Mount Otorten.
Preparations for this trip extended over the months of December 1958 and January 1959, during which students were still taking their exams. The walk should only be carried out during the winter holidays.
The number of participants changed several times, as some of the students who signed up for the walk later, and for no apparent reason, refused to participate. This is a curious fact, since, according to statistics, on planes, ships or trains that suffered accidents, they did not usually present 16 to 17 percent of the passengers, as was also the case in this tragic case.
In this way, instead of the planned 14 participants, Igor Dyatlov led the walk, 10 people, six UPI students, three young engineers, who only six months had received their diplomas. Also at the beginning of the walk, a hiker camp instructor, the oldest of them all, joined the group, Semyon Zolotaryov, 37, known only to Dyatlov.
During the winter holidays of 1959, the same day January 23, several groups of students of the fourth and fifth year of the UPI left for skiing trips in various categories of difficulty.
The group that embarked on a second-rate trek to the southern Ural was led by Mikhail Sharavin, a fourth-year student. By the route of the trip of the third, or higher category of difficulty, by the Ural Polar, followed the group of students of the fourth year, under the direction of Serguei Sogrin. In the similar routes of the third category by the Ural of the North they left at the same time and, in the same wagon of the train, the groups of Yuri Blinov and Igor Dyatlov. Several groups made their trips through the classic routes of the Middle Ural.
Thus, in that winter of 1959, practically all the Ural was covered by a network of ski routes of the hiker section of the UPI sports club. That was a great achievement of amateur student tourism. In particular, they seemed attractive routes by Ural Polar, which was scheduled a new hiker experience for students UPI: it was three winter climbs to the tops of the hills Sablya, Neroyka and Telpos e z.
The route of Igor Dyatlov's group seemed no less attractive: they intended to climb the mysterious mountain of Otorten, the top of the Poyasoviy crest in the Ural of the North. In the mansi language, the name Otorten means "Do not go there".
The members of the group decided to carry out a third-degree walk, that is, in the greatest category of difficulty, dedicating it to the next XXI Congress of the Communist Party of Soviet Union (CPSU). Not only because it was then a popular practice to dedicate some of the personal achievements to the important events of the country, but also because the young people were all members of the Komsomol , the Communist Youth Union. In addition, such dedication gave the group an apparent official status, in opposition to "wild tourism."
----- you can see from this a number of things:
1) these were highly valuable students and engineers.
2) the Urals were full of student hikers that winter.
3) there is NO REASON TO SUGGEST A SECRET SOVIET PLOT TO MURDER THESE STUDENTS.
4) The last thing the Soviet Government wanted was to hear that they all died in a mountaineering accident -- this was a political disaster! The initial response was to go rescue them (they must be lost) and not to cover-up some imagined plot.
----- the semi-official status meant that there would be publicity and etc. -- what the authorities feared the most happened: they all died in a disaster. The central authorities wanted to solve this -- not cover it up.
----- if there was any cover-up it was unsuccessful to say the least --- see the many photos of the huge public funeral for the group.
----- if there were any to blame --- WHO ? --- maybe some junior party member ? --- They found none to blame.
KMM
09-09-2017 18:11 (GMT)
It was the cold war. I lean to the transfer of contaminated clothing, but still leaves questions. If so still records somewhere probably
Actual photo of two such tests above... All I am saying is that this could very well be the source of many if not most atmospheric 'BL" phenomenon in the Ural area.
Even more interesting is the substances used in such tests.
Loose-Cannon
09-09-2017 16:51 (GMT)
"From historical documents:
A year ago, before the tragic events of February 21, 1958, the USSR launched for the first time a domestic single-stage liquid geophysical rocket R-5A intended for research and study of the upper layers of the atmosphere associated with flights at high speeds and altitudes of about 500 km using the method artificial luminous clouds (ISO).
The essence of this method was to observe the optical effects that occur when certain chemicals are released into the atmosphere. Thus, in the emission of alkali metal vapor and some other substances into the sunlight-illuminated layers of the atmosphere, resonance radiation appeared, the intensity of which at each point of space is related to the local concentration of the atoms of the substance, which made it possible to visualize the spatio-temporal structure of the formed IRF. By photographic and spectral observations of such clouds, one can obtain information about the parameters of the atmosphere-the velocity and direction of the wind, the parameters of molecular and turbulent diffusion, temperature, electric field,
Picture of artificial aerosol clouds, photo 1Picture of artificial aerosol clouds, photo 2 Observations of artificial aerosol clouds, luminous due to scattered solar radiation, made it possible to study the regularities of scattering and transport of finely dispersed dust particles. The simplicity and clarity of the ISO method led to its rapid spread, especially for measurements of wind speed, molecular and turbulent diffusion. Data on wind and molecular diffusion began to be obtained practically in all experiments carried out with the help of rockets, in which clouds of alkali metal atoms were created.
When using different compounds for the creation of ISO, the method of artificial formations could be applied in a very wide range of heights - practically from the surface of the earth (smoke clouds) and up to several hundred and even thousands of kilometers (barium, lithium and other artificial glowing clouds). Nitrates of alkali metals (NaNO3, KNO3, CsNO3), azides (for example - LiN3, BaN6), peroxides (for example - BaO2), alumina (AlO) were used to create the IRS.
In the USSR IS Shklovsky and VG Kurt conducted an experiment on the creation of a sodium cloud at an altitude of 430 km in 1958 and for the first time determined the density of the atmosphere at this altitude.
What could be the connection between ISO and the fireballs that were spoken about in the Urals at the time? Artificial clouds (ISO) were created to study and predict phenomena in the upper atmosphere in regions remote from meteorological stations. Perhaps these atmospheric studies with the help of ISO were necessary during flights of air transport over the Ural mountains.
In 1959, artificial clouds could be observed above the mountains of the Urals in the form of "fireballs".
What happened then?
Are the cases of delivery of a dangerous cargo to oil and gas fields by air transport known after this tragic event?
Yes, they are known."
Loose-Cannon
09-09-2017 16:23 (GMT)
"Q. Why would they seal the area if it had just been murder?
I didnt say they would seal it off 'if it was muder'. I am not stuck in a box and can freely explore other possibilities without a bias narrative clouding my judgment. They could have sealed it off if the surface evidence suggested military influence, some type of contamination, or both.
Q. If it was military testing why spend all that money investigating?"
I have already answered this question.
Loose-Cannon
09-09-2017 16:18 (GMT)
"No need to consider BL being induced it's clearly a natural phenomena."
And if I tell you not all BL type phenomenon is natural?
Nigel Evans
09-09-2017 16:11 (GMT)
Actually her book concludes with a murder theory....
No need to consider BL being induced it's clearly a natural phenomena.
Nigel Evans
09-09-2017 16:08 (GMT)
"The very fact the case was closed so rapidly, area sealed off, and the case not revealed for decades suggests the gov had a motive to hide their involvement."
Or it suggests that they realised they had stumbled across something after they processed SZ's secret camera that no one knew about... Something that could have military potential.
Q. Why would they seal the area if it had just been murder? Q. If it was military testing why spend all that money investigating?
Loose-Cannon
09-09-2017 16:04 (GMT)
Nigel... as much as you may dislike what I am about to tell you.... You need to burn that book as its nothing more then a vessel in which an author has constructed a bias narrative. Perhaps escape from the box?
Loose-Cannon
09-09-2017 16:01 (GMT)
Let me try a different approach...
Have you ever considered the fact the state 'could' be responsible for the lights, fireballs, or BL observed within the atmosphere in the Ural region?
Nigel Evans
09-09-2017 15:57 (GMT)
Err there wouldn't be an official document stating he was officially told to close the case and forget about it?
It's in the book - Many years after the incident, retired and residing in Kazakhstan, Ivanov gave a long and very strange interview to a local newspaper, The Way of Lenin, a substantial portion of which is presented here:
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (p. 134). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
Or dig out "The Way of Lenin"
Loose-Cannon
09-09-2017 15:47 (GMT)
"If the state was ultimately responsible to one degree or another,"... They wouldn't have spent a small fortune investigating it... They'd have just made something up."
Incorrect. You need all bodies and to do at least a preliminary investigation to determine whether or not a coverup is even required. You are assuming they would have known instantly. An investigation is required to also prove no gov involvement. The very fact the case was closed so rapidly, area sealed off, and the case not revealed for decades suggests the gov had a motive to hide their involvement. Im not saying agents killed them. I saying there are many ways in which the gov can intimately have a neg effect on the civilian population without intention.
Loose-Cannon
09-09-2017 15:40 (GMT)
""What is not stated is that the police investigator Ivanov wanted to pursue the spontaneous force = fireballs line of enquiry further but was formally told to forget everything he knew by his superior and remove all references to the fireball subject from the official report."
Perhaps, but its an inconvenience that cannot be proven one way or another. He wasnt the only investigator #1 and Im sure each of them had their own direction in which they would have liked to take the investigation. What 'official document' does it show him being "formally told to forget everything he knew by his superior and remove all references to the fireball subject from the official report."??
Nigel Evans
09-09-2017 15:37 (GMT)
"If the state was ultimately responsible to one degree or another,"... They wouldn't have spent a small fortune investigating it... They'd have just made something up.
Loose-Cannon
09-09-2017 15:31 (GMT)
"The huge cost rules out imo a state crime or military accident no need to spend that kind of money if you already know the answer. So the latter is what was going on."
If the state was ultimately responsible to one degree or another, you darn skippy they would close the case and seal it.
Anna Yordanova
09-09-2017 15:07 (GMT)
Hi everyone.I found this article about Dyatlov pass and I am a bit confused.“We discovered that the tent was half torn down and covered with snow. It was empty, and all the group’s belongings and shoes had been left behind.” This observation continued with investigators noting at least eight sets of footprints leading from the tent, all the way to the treeline. Two other pairs of footprints, completely barefoot, were followed to a large pine tree." I was thinking that the investigators found 8 pairs of footprints.I can`t figure out whose are the other two pairs.
Nigel Evans
09-09-2017 14:52 (GMT)
Correction - "What is not stated is that the police investigator Ivanov wanted to pursue the spontaneous force = fireballs line of enquiry further but was formally told to forget everything he knew by his superior."
Should read - "What is not stated is that the police investigator Ivanov wanted to pursue the spontaneous force = fireballs line of enquiry further but was formally told to forget everything he knew by his superior and remove all references to the fireball subject from the official report."
Nigel Evans
09-09-2017 14:23 (GMT)
From the official files - "Decision on the termination." - This seems to be the formal closing statement of the DPI investigation. It is the official result of circa 30 men (supplied by helicopters at huge cost) investigating for three months.
"and, as it was established in the subsequent forensic expertise, the leeward side of the tent where the hikers were headlong , was cut from the inside in two places, in areas that provide a free exit of a person through these sections."
"Neither traces of the struggle nor the presence of other people were found in the tent or near it."
"Forensic medical examination found that Dyatlov, Doroshenko, Krivonischenko and Kolmogorov died from the action of low temperature (frozen), none of them had physical injuries, not counting minor scratches and abrasions. Slobodin had a crack in the skull 6 cm long, which had spread to 0.1 cm, but Slobodin died from cooling."
"The investigation did not establish the presence on February 1 or 2, 1959 in the area of ??the "1079" height of other people, except for the group of hikers Dyatlov. It is also established that the population of Mansi, living in 80-100 km from this place, is Russian friendly, presents hikers, lodges, helps them, etc. The place where the group died, in winter time it is considered Mansi unsuitable for hunting and reindeer breeding."
"Given the absence of external injuries and signs of struggle on all corpses, the presence of all the values ??of the group, and also taking into account the conclusion of forensic medical examination of the causes of death of hikers, it should be considered that the reason for the death of hikers was the spontaneous force that hikers were unable to overcome ."
What is not stated is that the police investigator Ivanov wanted to pursue the spontaneous force = fireballs line of enquiry further but was formally told to forget everything he knew by his superior.
So that's it, either the state got the investigation wrong (unlikely), OR they covered something up because of a state action (e.g. military testing) OR they wanted to investigate something in secret and shutdown the public investigation and closed the area for three years. The huge cost rules out imo a state crime or military accident no need to spend that kind of money if you already know the answer. So the latter is what was going on.
Loose-Cannon
09-09-2017 13:38 (GMT)
Its not my 'opinion'... its the actual testimony of the investigation party!
Then again, I assume thats why you dont like it. Amazing the level ignorance on your behalf. Losing respect bro.... rapidly.
Loose-Cannon
09-09-2017 13:35 (GMT)
Try reading the case files for a change.... I told you I was going to data-dump facts from the case. Im just getting wormed up, and you haven't seen shit yet.
Nigel Evans
09-09-2017 13:30 (GMT)
Try giving your opinion in 5 lines or less. I know it's hard but it's a good discipline.
Loose-Cannon
09-09-2017 12:56 (GMT)
Nigel... Your lies are old but you tell them well.
Despite what you think, I do try to read everything you post. FYI... I correct that in a following post, but if you are too dense to follow my posts, thats your problem. I just proved 1/3 of your BS wrong and thats why you refuse to face the music. Sad really.... Because BL is actually plausible if you didn't muddy your own waters so much.
Nigel Evans
09-09-2017 07:47 (GMT)
@LC - i didn't get through the first post of that without giving up.
" Did he just testify that the NORTH FACE of the tent was torn?!?!?"
No.
He said - "A tent with a windy side was torn in the middle part."
Bit of a difference there....
Can we try and have some more concise posting please? Trawling through acres of crap trying to understand your logic is a waste of my time. I'm not bothering to read it. You never read anything i post even if it's concise....
KMM
09-09-2017 06:04 (GMT)
looking good, LC. Cutting the tent to leave never made sense,
John Wolfe
09-09-2017 04:39 (GMT)
I've already post this once before -- and will look it up for all you later -- there is a good discussion of modern /current thinking and research on lividity marks vs. frost damage -- also there is a rational explanation of Lyuda Dubinina’s missing tongue and subsequent damage on the interior of the mouth -- as well as the air burst damage to skulls and rib-cages and internal injuries.
-- if you are too impatient, I suggest you scan down the comments and read my comments and go to the links provided .
special note to Jamie -- you really need to do some reading on this DPI .
Loose-Cannon
09-09-2017 02:59 (GMT)
Another way of looking at it.....
"To carry out the investigation, the young investigator VI Korotaev. was given a rugged tent, torn by search engines, which was placed in the Lenin room. http://image.ibb.co/mO7xia/pal0.jpg
The tent was in terrible condition, with multiple tears and cuts, in some places there were punctured and burned holes, and 2 large pieces of canvas were cut / torn from its side. It is impossible to imagine how it was possible to conduct research on the tent, after it was ruined by search students.
Earlier, I noted that the actions of student search engines who parried the tent and injured her, no one controlled, so for the investigation it was incorrect to investigate the state of the tent in the Lenin room.
Thus, during the study of the tent, as prosecutor Ivdel Tempalov VI claimed, there were no incisions in the tent. However, it is worth noting that on the windy side, ie. from the side of the spur, the tent was torn in the middle part, and, as Tempalov noted, it was brought at first glance by dense snow. This is the only place where Tempalov discovered damages in the tent, which means there were no cuts from which the hikers were escaping from the tent, there was no tent!
Sections and huge holes in the tent on the other side of the spur appeared after Tempalov VI. He examined the tent and instructed the students to collect it and all the things and load it into the helicopter. The tent was frozen to dense snow, so the students cut out and pulled it out of the frozen snow and ice. Then, according to the testimonies of the search engines, the tent dragged to the helicopter to deliver it to Ivdel for research.
Those who saw the tent after the search engine students "worked" with it attributed the cuts made by the search engines to Igor Dyatlov's group. Then, based on this false "fact", a legend was invented that Igor Dyatlov's group cut the tent during its departure.
In fact, the tent was intact and the group left it in an organized manner. Things were all brought into the tent, and the entrance to the tent was closed. The tent itself was not torn by the wind, and only from one side, from the side of the spur, it was pressed down by dense snow, resulting in a large rupture, the reason for the appearance of which just needed to be thoroughly explored ..."
Would ya imagine that!!..... dense snow build on one side pressing down causing a rupture, along comes the students ripping, tearing, shovels and axe!
I said it once, Ill say it again. For all we know they never 'fled in panic' to begin with and its HIGHLY unlikely they were 'observing' anything outside the tent in whiteout conditions.... remember this?? http://image.ibb.co/fsd69F/dtyjdty.jpg
Loose-Cannon
09-09-2017 02:25 (GMT)
From one of my secret sources....
"Prosecutor Tempalov VI in the presence of AA Chernyshev. and witnesses examined the tent of hikers, compiled a survey report and photographed the tent after all the "investigative" events held two days earlier by the students.
After such actions the students, of course, the tent lost its original appearance, and the consequence of no trace near the tent could no longer detect. The snow around the tent was strewn with search engines, and the tracks were sprinkled ...
In the report of the inspection of the tent, Tempalov, in particular, noted that the stretches of the tent on the south side were intact, while the stretches of the tent on the north side were torn off and the whole second half of the tent was covered with snow. The tent was installed on a level platform excavated by students, with a windy side it was torn in the middle part. In his testimony, Tempalov did not say a word about the tent sections, because there were no incisions!
Tempalov wrote that in the right corner of the tent near the entrance lay food and a flask empty from alcohol or vodka (the smell was felt) and that he had the impression that the students drank vodka and had a snack. This was the first version and an attempt by the investigative authorities to falsify the cause of the death of hikers.
In the blood of students, alcohol was not detected (methyl alcohol - not alcohol, but poison)."
Sounds about right! AHHHH Mr.Chernyshev was there with Tempalov! Lets see what he says....
"The record of the interrogation of the witness Chernyshev The tent already had a group of Slobtsov, Karelin, Maslennikov was there. The search for this day was conducted by Moiseev with the dogs and they found the corpse of Kolmogorova and Dyatlov on the same day."
Great... these are the other fubar tent rummaging students... have to look into them!!! continue..
"On the second day, search groups were organized, and I with the prosecutor Tempalov and with him a man of up to 10 went to excavate the tent. The tent was discovered on the slope of the peak "1079", 100-150 m from the top to the northeast. At first glance, the tent seemed snowed, but when we looked at it, we saw that the tent on the entrance side held on to the central peg and was well reinforced with ropes. Another of its edges, too, stayed on the wheel, but since The middle of the tent was covered with snow, and the skylights of the tent on the windward side were severely torn, then the edge sank and was under the snow."
You read that?? "skylights of the tent on the windward side were severely torn" WINDWARD SIDE WAS TORN So with all this talk of high ass winds etc and statements like this..... You telling me there is NO CHANCE of the darn tent ripping from flap flap flappin in the winds for WEEKS rubbing on god knows what inside?? I call major BS man, MAJOR BS! And dont give me the "oh there was eyelets cut to watch the BL" horse crap.... you have no clue where, when or why those smaller three horizontal holes were made! I told you.... READ THE DARN DIARIES! For petes sakes.... here it is again!
DIARY OF ZINA It was much easier to go yesterday without backpacks, snow, snow, snow, snow on the banks froze. rivers snow snow . Lunch was an hour at 4 pm "After dinner I did just one transfer and stopped to rest. I sewed up the tent. We lay down to sleep. Igor all the time was rude, I just did not recognize him. I had to sleep on the wood near the stove."
This damn tent was riddled with holes and in constant need of sewing repair!!!!! Folding, dragging, wet freeze, unfold, rip, oops.. Its also common to store anchoring gear for the tent folded up with it!
I DIGRESS AGAIN!!! Back to the Chernyshev interrogation!
" In the tent was impossible to shove; all of it was covered with snow and how things were located it was possible to consider only when digging it. The tent was installed capitally. On the snow was prepared a level platform, on the snow laid skiing surface up, on them the bottom of the tent was already lying. In the tent below were laid quilted jackets (aside from the slope), backpacks empty were laid out on the tent. In the same side of the tent (to the slope) each lay personal things."
Right.... I see whats going on here. The items were removed while DIGGING IT... LIKE WITH A FREAKING SHOVEL!! Talking about eye level cut.... Just what is the shovel-head width comparison to those slits Nigel..... Hmmmmmmm?? Think McFly!
More from my secret source... witch is dead on to the case files BTW.
"Tempalov photographed the camera and instructed her to disassemble, put things in their backpacks and move them to the camp ... We disassembled a ten-man tent covered with a hard snow with shovels!
According to the former judge of Ivdel in 1959 Novokreschenova GV. Korotaev V.I. said that ... "the tent was covered with snow, and the snow was very hard. I had to use an ax, cut it with an ax and, of course, crippled it."
At the same time, there was no system to free the tent from snow. First they took out a few stale blankets, then buckets, a stove, two or three sacks of biscuits, shoes and other things. Things were stacked in backpacks, and dragged the tent to the search engine camp. Naturally, after such manipulations on the tent, sections and torn pieces could appear."
BINGO..... a complete mishandling of evidence. NOW YOU TELL ME NIGEL... If this tent was flap flap flappin in gale force winds for weeks and a chunk tore back starting at an existing tear/hole OR a student (amateurs first on scene) ripped it open (you admitted they did) and the section was PEALED BACK..... You get after that tent digging it out of hard snow with an AXE AND SHOVEL..... THE CUTS WILL NOW BE ON THE INSIDE OF THE CANVAS THAT WAS PEALED BACK AND COVERED IN SNOW!!!! WOW... Freaking amazeballs!!!
Loose-Cannon
09-09-2017 01:07 (GMT)
Correction...
"stretches of the tent from the north side were torn off and the whole second half of the tent was covered with snow"
Ok.... North E side torn, my mistake. Your safe on this one Nigel. For now. Rofl.
Loose-Cannon
09-09-2017 01:01 (GMT)
How about Brusnitsyn.... the young hiker from the university with the party that found the tent. SURE LC, LETS GET IT ON!
"Interrogation of witness Brusnitsyn The guys at an attempt to climb the ridge height of 1079 found an abandoned tent. In the camp they brought three cameras, Slobodin's jacket, an ice ax, which was stuck near the tent, a flashlight found near the tent and a jar of alcohol. At four o'clock we were caught by a group of Kurikov with a walkie-talkie. A radiogram was immediately transmitted about what happened to the coordinates of the tent. By radio, we were given the task to organize a landing site for the helicopter landing and choose a place for the camp for 50 people."
Welp.... ya found the tent, rummaged around a bit, found the ALCOHOL of course! next..
"The tent is placed on a slope of height 1079. Entrance to the south. The steepness of the slope in this area approx. 20-25 °. Depth of snow up to 1.5 meters. A shallow pit was dug for the horizontal installation of the tent."
Welp.... It was actually South East and more East then South, but I digress! #%&@ these people are dense... next
"Under the tent put 8 pairs of skis down attachments. Thanks to the dense snow cover, the tent was installed very firmly. Everything is covered with already clammy snow, except for the southern skate, fortified on a ski pole and tied for a pair of skis. Under the northern ridge there was no stick."
Wait.... no stick! WHERE DID THIS BATON GO? Nigel will tell you it was broken to make super tactical BL capturing tripod. As if they had a VIDEO camera and deeded to keep it steady. (eyes roll) lets get it...
"Snow was chosen with the help of skis and ski poles. Ten people worked without any system. In most cases ("things" are crossed out - note ed.) Everything was pulled out directly from under the snow, so it was very difficult to determine where and how each thing lay. "
Did I read that correctly? "it was very difficult to determine where and how each thing lay" Good to know.... next!
" First they took out several blankets, frozen in a ball, then buckets, a stove, 2-3 sacks of breadcrumbs, boots, etc. The things in the tent are arranged in the following order. At the bottom of the bed rucksacks. Then 2-3 blankets. Next were the quilted jackets and personal belongings of the participants. Buckets, stove, ax, saw were lying at the entrance to the right. Here was part of the products: rusks, sugar, condensed milk, untied bag with a loin. The rest of the products were in the far right corner. Most of the shoes ("lying" - crossed out, comment ed.) Were placed on the left side of the tent. Two pairs - right in the middle. The rest of the things are in disorder in the tent."
2-3 sacks of breadcrumbs!!! Holy crap thats alot of rye bread! ("lying" - crossed out, comment ed.)... Ive seen this before.. It means the person being interviewed recanted or otherwise corrected a statement on the spot. (thumbs up). "The rest of the things are in disorder in the tent." Hey hey, HEY! The top brass man-in-charge of the tent investigation just told us there was no struggle, but yet the tent contents are in DISORDER! Leaving the tent in a hurry, a scuffle, are just sloppy Johns... I mean sloppy pigs? Whatever, you decide. next!
"Apparently the group was in the final stage of dressing and preparing for the night at the time of the incident. In the near half found a few crusts from the loin. There are rusks scattered all over the tent."
"Above all things lay a ski-slit cut into several pieces, apparently, the northern end of the tent was strengthened on it. Decide on the spoilage of the stick, given that in the group there were no substitutes it is possible only under special circumstances."
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA....... The stick (ski pole) was used as an anchor on the Northern end of the tent!!!! Actually was North West but I digress again!!! THE POINT IS..... NO FREAKING TRIPOD FOR BL VIDEO FOOTAGE. Read the GD case files!!!!!
"Where the tent was set, were about 5 hours. Nespasha dug hole, and calmly prepared for bed. About 7 o'clock something unusual still unprecedented by anybody has forced hikers to leave a tent in a panic. Running stripped, in bad weather at night from a single warm corner is possible only under pain of death. This strange phenomenon (light penetrating through the tent, sound, and possibly gases)"
And..... there ya have it. This is the first low-level BL conspiracy to surface... from a kid hiker from the university who heard of (maybe saw) Nigels famous "three heads" photo. He was interviewed some time after the incident mind you and wild stories were apparently everywhere.... You name theory... it was the talk of the town.
Loose-Cannon
09-09-2017 00:12 (GMT)
Welp... here comes inbound.
From the official case files. You like Maslennikov Eugene Polikarpovich dont you?
"Protocol of interrogation of the witness Maslennikova EP Most of the tent was occupied by Brusnitsyn, who will tell about the location of things in it better than me. reading that there was a prosecutor of Tempalov at the tent and a sufficient number of people I went down to the search group, tk. It was necessary to activate the search for people. "
Ok, Seems this guy is not the droid we are looking for in regards to whats in the tent... GREAT! ...... continue
"There were 9 backpacks in the Dyatlov's tent, 10 pairs of lies, of which 9 pairs under the tent floor, 8 pairs of shoes, 3.5 pairs of boots (7 pcs.), Several tealings and other property. When the inspection of the tent was over, we dragged her to the helipad at a distance of 600-700 meters. "
DRAGGING! REALLY!?!? Meh, lets go find this Tempalov guy.
"Interrogation of witness Tempalov V.I. Inspection of the tent showed me that it contains all the personal belongings of the students. The tent was stretched on skis and sticks, hammered in the snow, its entrance was turned to the south, and from this side the stretches were intact, and the stretches of the tent from the north side were torn off and the whole second half of the tent was covered with snow. The tent had an ice ax, an extra pair of skis. On the tent was a Chinese lantern in the unlit state. 9 backpacks, 9 pairs of skis were found in the tent, all of them were under the tent floor, 8 pairs of shoes, 3.5 pairs of boots, quilted jackets and many biscuits, half a sack of sugar, a large number of concentrates, cereals, soups, etc. , cocoa, axes, saw, cameras, diaries of students, documents and money. At first glance, the tent was covered with snow. It was installed on a platform leveled by the students dug out. A tent with a windy side was torn in the middle part. The bottom of the tent was covered with padded jackets, backpacks and personal belongings of students. In the right corner, near the entrance there was a part of the products: cans of condensed milk, 100 grams of sliced ??fat, rusks, sugar, a flask empty from alcohol or vodka, the smell was felt, just like a jar with a drink (poured?) Prepared for consumption, the cocoa was diluted with water and naturally froze, a large knife was found near the bacon of a sliced ??me"
HOLY SHITBALLS!!.... Did he just testify that the NORTH FACE of the tent was torn?!?!? I thought the ENTIRE BL theory revolved around them escaping to the treeline to the NORTH to escape the BL to the SOUTH!!!! Your BL theory just took a gigantic shit in one sentence! MANY BISCUITS!... two sacks to be exact. but I digres ... lets continue..
"I installed the knife belonged to the students. I got the impression that the students drank vodka and had a snack. Boots there were in the tent and put near the feet of the students so it seemed to me, there were 7 pieces of felt boots immediately. In the case in the middle of the tent a stove was found. And many other personal belongings of students and public equipment, there were buckets, axes, mugs, cups in the tent. At the top of the tent a Chinese flashlight was found, which was closer to the entrance, near the exit from the tent I found a trace of the fact that one of the students had recovered easily. This track is old."
Wait wait wait..... lets look at this sentence again. "In the CASE in the MIDDLE of the tent a stove was found" WOOT! lts continue..
"Without me no one came to the tent and the tracks near the tent were not ours. I have not established any traces of struggle in the tent. If there was any struggle, it would be natural, something would be installed by me. From this point of view, I carefully searched and inspected the tent, but there were no signs of struggle, at least nothing said about it. The tent was located on the slope of the mountain. Descent from the tent steep and on the nast (dense snow). The descent is 2.5 km. There is no forest on the slope of the mountain, except for rare birches closer to the river. This descent, where in essence there are frequent winds."
Only one on site (at the time he inspected), no struggle (that he could tell), and BIG winds.. gotcha.... carry on.
"At the bottom of the tent 50-60 from us on the slope, I found 8 pairs of traces of people that were carefully examined, but they were deformed due to winds and temperature fluctuations. I failed to establish the ninth track and it was not there. Traces I photographed. They walked down from the tent. Traces showed me that people were walking normally down the mountain. Traces were visible only in the 50 meter section, there were no further them since the lower the mountain the more snow. At the bottom of the mountain flows a river up to 70 cm deep, as if from a ravine in which the depth of snow in places reaches 2 to 6 meters in thickness."
So..... 8 Sets, 9th was not there, and they walked. Awesome! Weird, but Awesome-sauce. next!
"From documents, diaries of students, records of the latter it is clear to me that the students died on February 1 or 2, 1959. From a number of testimonies of witnesses it is clear to me that these days in the mountains and not only in the mountains there was a strong wind and it was very cold . Based on the discovered corpses (in the number of five people), the situation in which they were to me it becomes clear that all the students were frozen, the attack on them is excluded. It's my personal opinion"
Cold as shit and windy as all get-out.... Gotcha! Not attacked... personal opinion.... Great... opinions... Just finds 5 pop-sickle cadavers and makes an assessment. Gee.... I cant help but wonder why no evidence of an attack was looked into on the scene! Mr.Jackwagon saw 5 frozen bodies covered in snow and had his mind made up. COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE!!!! lets go..
"The final opinion can only develop after the discovery and inspection of all other students, i.e. 4 more people."
Oh.... now you start to think about the dumb shit you just said....... sure. Moving on now...
"All students could leave their tent only because in the strong wind someone of them at the time when he left the tent blew the wind and this man raised a cry. The student was frightened, rushed out of the tent and were blown away from her by the wind, but with (...?) -windra they could not get into the tent again. And they froze. Of course, such a conclusion can only be made on the basis of the five corpses of students found. What is the cause of the death of the other 4 students I do not know, because their corpses have not been found yet. If these 4 students die due to freezing, the above version will be correct."
Oh whateva... the translation dates a dump sometimes, but it sounded like another Nigel (I know exactly what was said and done) hub hub comment. Lets see that last part again.
" What is the cause of the death of the other 4 students I do not know, because their corpses have not been found yet. If these 4 students die due to freezing, the above version will be correct."
BINGO.... you were wrong-duck-dong.
What shall we look into next? Ill find something. TONS to look through.
@John.... Go intercourse yourself with your garden cucumber.
Nigel Evans
08-09-2017 23:33 (GMT)
Skulls can fracture in deep freeze (-18c) apparently. The DPI bodies will have easily exceeded this.
Probably applies more to NTB than RS as he had associated haemorrhaging.
Nigel Evans
08-09-2017 21:53 (GMT)
@Jaime - i wasn't but this guy was later on :- "February 27 Maslennikov himself arrived at the tent and started to inspect it with great and meticulous care. A stove lay next to the entrance of the tent, but it was disassembled and in [its] cover. There was a single log outside the tent. We also noticed, almost all their things were in place: a bucket, axes, and cups. In his later testimony, Sharavin added that the stove was full of unburnt wood.
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (pp. 49-50). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition. "
Jaime
08-09-2017 21:45 (GMT)
Nigel, it wasn't? Didn't know you were in tent. The theory is that there were embers that were still live and somehow disturbed when stove was either being disassembled, was knocked over, etc. How people take a slight unknown and come to aliens or fret over a missing tongue baffles me. p.s. Amelia Earhardt likely died at sea
Nigel Evans
08-09-2017 21:35 (GMT)
@LC - "I have completely debunked the "hotspot" and you damn well know it." Only in your head...
Nigel Evans
08-09-2017 21:34 (GMT)
@Jaime - what smoke, the stove wasn't in use?
Jaime
08-09-2017 21:27 (GMT)
Or, in my opinion more likely, they cut slits to let smoke out of tent. The only mystery here is why they left the tent. Everything else can likely be explained if one isn't donning a foil hat.
Loose-Cannon
08-09-2017 21:25 (GMT)
"around the hotspot" ROFLMFAO
I have completely debunked the "hotspot" and you damn well know it.
"I don't accept that Zina was hit by a baton, THEY were dragging a sled for days over rough ground with a rope tied around their waist..."
Hope you don't mind, I made a single word in your statement above stand out. You idea is crap because Zina is the ONLY person to have this injury. In addition, YOU READ THE DAMN REPORTS..IT WAS NOT A DAYS OLD BRUISE.
Thats fine... I'll be home in a few hrs and burry this thread with information from a tower PC.
Nigel Evans
08-09-2017 21:15 (GMT)
@Jaime - They cut slits to see something out there in the dark". Bit of an oxymoron. Not really, it was a dark night so whatever they were looking at must of been illuminated.
"IF they were looking out at something that scared them WHY would the go TO that thing." Maybe it was coming to them? The tracks suggest they went around the hotspot.
Jaime
08-09-2017 21:02 (GMT)
Nigel, really? "They cut slits to see something out there in the dark". Bit of an oxymoron. They left the tent because something in the tent compelled them to do so. IF they were looking out at something that scared them WHY would the go TO that thing. Waiting for one of you to remind us they were on a (snow covered) grassy knoll. Newsflash: Oswald killed JFK, there is no Yeti or Loch Ness monster, no aliens have visited us and, sadly, Elvis is dead.
Nigel Evans
08-09-2017 20:53 (GMT)
@KMM - "The final question that has to be answered is: why was one of the group member’s tongue missing? Opinions differ regarding the cause of the disturbing absence of Lyuda Dubinina’s tongue. Some say the tongue was eaten by rodents; others argue it was torn or cut out. Vozrozhdenniy himself offered a possible explanation when he wrote in his autopsy report: [There is] damage to the soft tissue of the head, and ‘bath skin’ wrinkling to the extremities are the post-mortem changes (rot and decay) of Ms. Dubinina’s corpse, which was under water before it was found. One might assume that ‘soft tissue of the head’ also means tongue. Every autopsy transcript includes a description of the external and internal parts of the body. The missing tongue was already obvious during the external examination. While the autopsy was performed, the coroner also found several other strange things, which were impossible to observe before cutting the throat open. These were The diaphragm of the mouth and tongue was absent. The upper edge of the sublingual bone was bared. The diaphragm of the mouth is mostly a mylohyoid muscle. It depresses the mandible and elevates the sublingual bone (hyoid), the floor of the oral cavity, and the tongue. It is attached to the hyoid. The coroner Vozrozhdenniy saw that the sublingual bone was bared and the mylohyoid muscle was missing only after he performed his internal examination. This assumes that the skin on the throat was intact and no inner injuries were seen: ‘The neck is long and thin. The soft tissue in the neck area is flaccid when palpated.’ This raises two questions. How could the mylohyoid muscle, which adjoins so closely to the skin, decay completely while the skin was not damaged? Tissue cannot rot selectively. Another possibility is that rodents ate it along with the tongue, but in this case, again, their teeth would have damaged the skin. In addition, traces of rodent teeth are very specific, and Vozrozhdenniy would have easily recognized them. But he only wrote that ‘the tongue in the oral cavity is absent’, and ‘the diaphragm of the mouth is absent’. It isn’t possible to clarify any of his statements, as he never gave an interview about the autopsy for the rest of his life. It appears likely that someone used a knife to perform the amputation. However, if this is indeed so, it definitely occurred post-mortem, otherwise there would have been profound bleeding. According to Genrietta Churkina, a forensic pathologist present at the autopsy: ‘When it was discovered that Dubinina had no tongue, we wondered even more. I asked Boris [Vozrozhdenniy]: “Where could [the tongue] go?” He shrugged his shoulders. It seemed to me he was depressed and even scared.’
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (pp. 202-203). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition. "
Nigel Evans
08-09-2017 20:48 (GMT)
@Jaime - the exit slit was cut top to bottom, the entrance was smaller it's difficult to find a picture of it. They made the right decision if they had to get out fast.
The other slits along the top of the tent (at eye height) were to observe something out there in the dark (only on one side). The three heads photo is imo a photo of it catching the folds and weave of the canvas fabric - http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Zolotaryov-camera-01.jpg .
Jaime
08-09-2017 20:32 (GMT)
Nigel, don't agree. Quicker to get out thru flap than cut way out. And explain the small slits
KMM
08-09-2017 20:30 (GMT)
I always dismissed the missing tongue as animal predation without paying much attention to it. I'm beginning to rethink that. The autopsy report should of addressed that and other things. I'm starting to believe the investigation had a agenda to fulfill and crafted the evidence to fit. (much like nigel does)
Nigel Evans
08-09-2017 20:30 (GMT)
@Sandy - YK's nose tip was removed yes? By a scavenger yes? So if there's one then it's reasonable that there could be more damage from scavengers yes? You are being the blockhead. Have a good weekend.
Jaime
08-09-2017 20:29 (GMT)
Sandy, inhale. "Aliens don't murder humans that way????" How do they murder them? Facts: they left the tent by cutting their way out, soot was found on tent. ZERO evidence of other people, animals, aliens, avalanche, etc. Can't imagine what you thought of crop circles before they were proven as hoaxes.
Sandy
08-09-2017 20:26 (GMT)
@Nigel: "No other theory stacks up?"
You can't explain the injuries with your BL nonsense. And rats?? Seriously dude?? You REALLY think rats did some of the injuries??
Wow. I'm at a loss for words. Rats did not do that.
You think their corpses looked calm?? I wonder if their parents would agree. Sorry Nigel, but you're a blockhead. You can't be reasoned with as you're one of these people that "always have to be right".
Your BL theory stinks & doesn't match up with anything really. Time for me to leave work & gone til MON!! Please take another look at their deceased pics. These poor people look anything BUT CALM..... They look filled with sheer terror as one would look as they stare death right in the face & know they're going to die right now......
Nigel Evans
08-09-2017 20:25 (GMT)
@Jaime - the entrance was a tube that limited speed of exit for one person never mind nine.
Nigel Evans
08-09-2017 20:24 (GMT)
@LC - "don't grasp the severity of the temperatures." The encountered lividity demonstrates that the process was happening that night.
Sandy
08-09-2017 20:20 (GMT)
@Jaime:
They didn't use the stove that last nite.
And it wasn't "something" that blocked their exit, it was "someone(s)" as in human.
With a Yeti, would have been blood all over. Aliens? They don't murder humans like that.
Nigel Evans
08-09-2017 20:17 (GMT)
@Sandy
@Nigel - We have to agree to disagree. Oh yes, but it's more fun this way.
You fail to see the obvious as your need for it to be your theory of BL is too strong & overrides your common sense. No it's just what i think, part of the case for BL is that no other theory stacks up as well.
I agree that there isn't one injury, but in all NINE! Even ID that was about the only one to just expire from hypothermia had his hands/knuckles beat up from punching and defending punches. Maybe there was a fight, maybe it was rodents, maybe it was digging the ravine 4 out of the snow. Doesn't really support a murder theory imo.
To me, it CLEARLY shows these 9 people were all beaten to sh!t but only some of them expired from hypothermia. How do you think BL made ALL their hands look like that? Tell me how it crushed 2 of their skulls & broke 2 sets of ribs? Crushed a chest cavity? Hit Zina with either a baton or rifle?? Only obvious she was attacked from behind. The BL theory only explains how they left the tent and how the ravine 4 died from superhuman force. I don't accept that Zina was hit by a baton, they were dragging a sled for days over rough ground with a rope tied around their waist...
Again, your passion to be "right" is clearly clouding your judgment & you are only seeing what you want to see. BL killing these 9 people is like saying the sky is purple. Don't think so again part of the case for the BL theory is that it's the only one to fit the facts. The BIG problem with the murder theory is the question "how could they have been so stupid to light a fire?". LC answers this by deciding it was internal violence.
Go read their autopsies again. Pay special attention to their hand abrasions/scratches/knuckles bruised and skinned........abrasions to their faces.....dried blood on almost all mouths....tongue cut at the root while she was still alive to have swallowed the blood......being knocked down by BL over & over til both sides of the skull is crushed.....the sheer terror on their faces isn't from BL but evil humans.
Believe me i've read the autopsies more than you. The is nothing there to suggest the tongue was cut or that she swallowed any blood, it's a myth. Also i don't see terror in their faces, in fact they seem quite calm.
Sandy
08-09-2017 20:12 (GMT)
I can agree that they weren't "all" experiencing advanced stages of hypothermia when injured". I believe maybe 3 or 4 weren't at that late stage as the others less dressed were.
You didn't answer the questions I posted about BL sustaining the injuries in about 5 or 6 of them?
Jaime
08-09-2017 20:11 (GMT)
The stove theory is the only sensible one (if you don't believe in Yeti or aliens). Something occurring in the tent which also blocked the exit. Why cut holes to escape if there is a exit way? The stove blocked the exit.
Loose-Cannon
08-09-2017 20:08 (GMT)
@Sandy... Fascinating ideas. I thought Zina was playing Igor and used to date Yuri though... Dunno about RS.
Nigel. The point is... Your simply ignoring and attempting to write-off facts that do not support your BL theory. Its that simple. Several victims found on their backsides.... Why did they not bleed out of their ass or otherwise have a rat chew off a buttcheek!?!?. Your assertion is moot.
#1. Its common sense... Blood no longer flowing will settle with gravity BUT, that does not mean blood platelets stop containing blood where it belongs..... Not going to bleed out your ass anytime soon after you die. Dont worry about the new drawers getting blood soiled.
#2. Bodily fluids I'm sure can leak from a body cavity some time after death during a certain decomposition period BUT, unfortunately for you, their bodies were frozen solid as a rock with minutes of dying. Humans are mostly water, and said water is absorbed into every level of tissue. Ever seen water freezing right befor your eyes? Again... I don't think you grasp the severity of the temperatures. https://youtu.be/rTYsohr5Z-I
Sandy
08-09-2017 20:07 (GMT)
How does BL snap a neck like that & deform it?
In "Death on the Trail" (D.O.T.T.), the Russian author believes Rustem Slobodin was the first to die. He believes he attempted to attack the "robbers" at the tent & he was beat in the head then by the attackers. He was still alive & didn't die right away from his head injuries. Where he was found was where he had finally dropped & expired from hypothermia, but due to his horrific blunt trauma head injuries, his hypothermia was brought on much faster. He even suggests that Igor was heading back towards the tent to find Rustem but he died from hypothermia along the way.
I believe Loose Cannon posted his theory very similar to this.
I don't know if I believe Rustem was the first to die or not. It makes good sense that the 2 Yuri's at the cedar tree were the first 2 to die.
Nigel Evans
08-09-2017 20:03 (GMT)
@Sandy - "All of the victims were experiencing various stages of advancing hypothermia when they sustained injuries." Very contentious statement. NTB was VERY well dressed for the cold (probably on watch) in particular he had two hats - by a tightly tied green woollen sports cap with three round holes sized 3 x 3 cm located in the front. A khaki canvas fur helmet with a zipper fastener [like a flying helmet]; the helmet is drawn by a cord.
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (p. 215). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
NTB gloves were in his pocket and AK was found with his jacket unzipped. Imo they were inside a shelter. Whatever NTB's head wouldn't have been cold.
Sandy
08-09-2017 19:57 (GMT)
@Nigel - We have to agree to disagree.
You stated "The main point here is that many of the smaller injuries you categorize as "combat" or "BEAT TO SHIT" are ambiguous and could have other causes.
In fact there is NOT ONE injury that is CLEARLY caused by human violence. Everyone of them has an alternative solution."
You fail to see the obvious as your need for it to be your theory of BL is too strong & overrides your common sense.
I agree that there isn't one injury, but in all NINE! Even ID that was about the only one to just expire from hypothermia had his hands/knuckles beat up from punching and defending punches.
To me, it CLEARLY shows these 9 people were all beaten to sh!t but only some of them expired from hypothermia. How do you think BL made ALL their hands look like that? Tell me how it crushed 2 of their skulls & broke 2 sets of ribs? Crushed a chest cavity? Hit Zina with either a baton or rifle?? Only obvious she was attacked from behind.
Again, your passion to be "right" is clearly clouding your judgment & you are only seeing what you want to see. BL killing these 9 people is like saying the sky is purple.
Go read their autopsies again. Pay special attention to their hand abrasions/scratches/knuckles bruised and skinned........abrasions to their faces.....dried blood on almost all mouths....tongue cut at the root while she was still alive to have swallowed the blood......being knocked down by BL over & over til both sides of the skull is crushed.....the sheer terror on their faces isn't from BL but evil humans.
@Anna: Good points. I agree with everything you just wrote. You were the first person when I found this site that I came across & stated they were murdered by humans. You're exactly right & I agree with you 100%.
Sandy
08-09-2017 19:42 (GMT)
Here is yet another theory that for the most part, could have happened as well. It is another theory that they were murdered.
CE399_ 19-10-2016 20:09 (GMT) Comment to all previous posts:
1. Zina Kolmogorova's postion at death is not mysterious at all. Zina was romantically involved with both of the men whose bodies were closest to her body. The group had split up at some point with some of them forming an expedition to try to get back to the tent. The "tent" subgroup was Zina, Dyatlov and Slobodin. Zina was the best clothed, strong and athletic but had been struck in the side and back with something resembling a baton (or butt of a rifle). She made it the furthest of any in the "tent" expedition but of course, succumbed to hypothermia. The "tent" expedition was ill-fated because no one was properly clothed and all had sustained injuries and expended too much energy most likely fighting off their attacker(s).
2. The attacker(s) killed Thibeaux-Brignolle most likely because he tried to be heroic in trying to defend the girl in the group who was closest to him in age. His injuries are consistent with an impulsive young man who is killed by a much more experienced fighter wielding a long, hard object like a baton, rod or rifle. Zina's injuries are also consistent with such a weapon and more closely match what a male assailant who was an experienced fighter would do to woman who tried to attack him.
3. Regarding the so-called "lack of external injuries". The medical examiners were mediocre. All of the victims were experiencing various stages of advancing hypothermia when they sustained injuries. Bruising is not seen because blood flow is retracted from the skin of a hypothermic person. The body concentrates blood into the vital organs when it becomes hypothermic. I have personally experienced this happening very rapidly and very acutely. A cut on hypothermic skin that is shockingly deep may not bleed at all. In a particular episode of M*A*S*H a patient is said to have survived because he was "frozen" and would have bleed to death in warmer weather. The television series was known for its on-set medical advisors who took real accounts of combat from the Korean War and adapted them accurately for the show. The only thing that is not entirely accurate about the episode is that the soldier was not "frozen" because freezing kills tissue and bursts vessels. The soldier was hypothermic and his blood flow was restricted so much to the area of the wound that it did not bleed. The noticeable lack of "external injuries" is due to hypothermia. Remember, people are quite conscious and alive when their bodies begin to react to hypothermia.
4. I have lived a number of years above the Arctic Circle. Lights, fireballs, and other strange luminescent events are common. People in the lower latitudes only know about "the Northern Lights" but there is a whole range of strange and spectacular things that happen at the higher latitudes. And it's not all lights either. Sound events often occur too, with and without lights. I have heard and seen things that I would think were alien ships whizzing by or crashing if I wasn't an engineer with a physics education. The amount of energy deflected and channeled by the earth's magnetic field is enormous and causes all sorts of light and sound shows at the higher latitudes.
Everyone wants to treat the fireball events seen around the time of the Dyatlov tragedy as special. Sorry, that sort of thing is not special at all. Go spend a couple winters up there and you'll see. I have. And I am not impressed at all by the stories. They are as common as hurricanes in Florida. Sure, some are bigger than others and some seasons have few and others a lot. But what was seen was not unique.
If you take any story in isolation, it can be made out to be a spectacular or strange occurrence.
How many accounts of the Dyatlov incident mention that the lights in the sky seen at that time were also seen before and after that day for many days and from year-to-year? And none of the witness accounts of the "halos" are certain to have occurred exactly on the day when the group perished which is another issue.
Group infighting does not explain the hurried exit from the tent unless someone pulled a gun on the rest of the group. Or say, grabbed Lyuda and threatened to slit her throat if the rest of the group didn't do as he said.
His theory ends with it being Yuri Yudin, the 10th hiker, that comes back with a couple men and murders them. NO way that happened either. All his other statements until that point are certainly a possibility. Yuri Yudin loved them and vice versa.
Nigel Evans
08-09-2017 19:10 (GMT)
Whether they were turned over is not the point. The point is that lividity is a fact, blood pools at the bottom of the corpse close to the skin. If a rodent then nips the skin there will be blood on the surface of the skin. That's how the some of the "combat" injuries can be explained. Ditto cut hands. Granted skull fractures need another reason like falling.
The main point here is that many of the smaller injuries you categorize as "combat" or "BEAT TO SHIT" are ambiguous and could have other causes.
In fact there is NOT ONE injury that is CLEARLY caused by human violence. Everyone of them has an alternative solution. That is a very strong fact for the murder theorists to answer.
KMM
08-09-2017 18:59 (GMT)
John Wolfe 08-09-2017 18:28 (GMT) note to Sandy -- there is a definite difference between BL and regular lightning -- they are related but not the same -- I do recognize that the two may sometimes have similar visual appearances and are thus confused in the reporting. (like the example I cited -- which I think is normal lightning -- and a very dangerous thing to do -- don't try this at home, as they say.)
So you don't even believe your own dribble, yet present it to be evidence of BL ???
Loose-Cannon
08-09-2017 18:35 (GMT)
Again... I personally do not believe they were turned over except with a slight possibility? of Igor. Your wild assertion is moot.
John Wolfe
08-09-2017 18:28 (GMT)
note to Sandy -- there is a definite difference between BL and regular lightning -- they are related but not the same -- I do recognize that the two may sometimes have similar visual appearances and are thus confused in the reporting. (like the example I cited -- which I think is normal lightning -- and a very dangerous thing to do -- don't try this at home, as they say.)
Anna Yordanova
08-09-2017 18:26 (GMT)
To Sandy. When I first saw the pics of the incident I only saw a storage house situated South from the tent. I don't have a detailed picture of premises and I didn't know how it looks like. But I will say again that in my opinion the killers have come from this direction and that's why the group has run towards the woods. I also have stated in one of my previous posts that I believe that no environmental factors could cause this tragedy and the hikers have been killed by humans(more like animals). To Loose Cannon. Yes, it is true that the pictures do not look anything like the hikers, especially Doroshenko.
Nigel Evans
08-09-2017 18:24 (GMT)
@Sandy / @LC - we know the bodies were turned over because of the lividity, because the blood pools via gravity so close to the surface of the skin that it is visible. Exactly my point. So if some of the bodies are face down and a rodent has a little nibble perhaps of the lips or the face then there will be blood yes?
John Wolfe
08-09-2017 18:21 (GMT)
note to Sandy: at least LC provides some interesting sites -- not that he / she reads them ....
Sandy
08-09-2017 18:03 (GMT)
@John: I believe there is ball lightening & it has struck people throughout the ages. Many people have died from lightening strikes.
While the experiment was under way, ball lightning appeared and travelled down the string, struck Richmann's forehead and killed him. The ball had left a red spot on Richmann's forehead, his shoes were blown open, and his clothing was singed. His engraver was knocked unconscious. The door frame of the room was split and the door was torn from its hinges.[12]
How does his injuries in ANY way, shape or form explain the 9 hikers' injuries?? His shoes were blown open?? I'm not surprised to read this. Lightening can be very lethal. This doesn't compare to what happened with the hikers.
NO WAY IS ANY FORM OF LIGHTENING, BALL OR OTHERWISE, GOING TO KILL NINE DIFFERENT PEOPLE AT DIFFERENT TIME FRAMES, IN DIFFERENT LOCATIONS & IN MANY DIFFERENT INJURIES.
What part of this can't Nigel/John comprehend?? Even in lightening attacks, there are survivors and any form of lightening has never killed a large group of people with different attacks.
The horse is dead. D-e-a-d. I'm through as well with writing anymore absurdity about all those 9 people being killed by BL. Impossibly absurd. The.End.
Sandy
08-09-2017 17:54 (GMT)
@ Loose Cannon - Thanks for the pics from that link! A bunch of those I had not seen!
John Wolfe
08-09-2017 17:52 (GMT)
you know -- I'm pretty much done trying to convince the fakes who pretend to read the stuff and the links we provide -- THEY DON'T EVEN READ THEIR OWN LINKS LET ALONE OURS ! Why waste our time ? Why don't you go off and do something constructive --- like the dishes ..... or take out the garbage ...... KMM asks for names and I provide names -- here's just one example -- a famous and historic ABD VERIFIABLE account :
Georg Richmann[edit]
A 1753 report depicts ball lightning as having been lethal when professor Georg Richmann of Saint Petersburg, Russia, created a kite-flying apparatus similar to Benjamin Franklin's proposal a year earlier. Richmann was attending a meeting of the Academy of Sciences when he heard thunder and ran home with his engraver to capture the event for posterity. While the experiment was under way, ball lightning appeared and travelled down the string, struck Richmann's forehead and killed him. The ball had left a red spot on Richmann's forehead, his shoes were blown open, and his clothing was singed. His engraver was knocked unconscious. The door frame of the room was split and the door was torn from its hinges.[12]
-- I posted a pile of these. Apparently KMM didn't see that one either (and don't bother answering this as I am not responding to your useless posts of phony analysis)
LC -- I thought you were some sleep-deprived and angry 12 year old (you have the mentality of one --- or maybe a 10 year old) --- but in one of your curse-word filled rants (against either me or the ball-lightning hypothesis) you said something that changed my mind --- what you said / called me, was a "pantywaist" ! A "PANTYWAIST" ! No has used that word in the last half century ! I had to look the word up to be sure of its meaning, and then research its use. (see: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pantywaist --- which said its first use was in 1910 ! ) That word went out of use as a descriptive noun in the 1920's after which it was more used as an insult (implying: "sissy" ) however by the 1930's it had become a comic pejorative -- its last known use was in a B&W Bob Hope movie from the early 1950's ! ------ I now think we're dealing with an angry sleep-deprived 80 year old ! Dude! Is your hair white ? Do you have any hair left ? --- and most importantly ...... Do you take your teeth out when you go to bed ?
--- special note to Loose Shorts or whatever your name is: the BBC reports that your source of secret information, Alex Jones, of info wars, has declared hurricane Irma ...... a category 6 ! .... in spite of the fact that no such category exists ! (see: http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-41187164 )
--- as for Nigel, Anna, and a few others who are really interested in this sad accident -- and might even solve it -- I will be glad to comment / correspond on this site as my time allows -- I am fascinated by the enormous power that lightning and ball-lightning conveys and the possibility that we don't know what the heck it is, but that it is probably related to both plasma physics phenomena and radiant microwave energy in some highly unusual way. WHAT A FANTASTIC AND BEAUTIFUL WORLD WE LIVE IN ! I'm off to water the garden -- gd'day.
Sandy
08-09-2017 17:14 (GMT)
@ Nigel: NO, your rat articles doesn't explain ANYTHING at all that has to do with any of the 9 injuries. Brother. I can't believe how far you'll go to attempt to tie such stupid sh!t in with what happened to the 9. Give.it.a.rest.
Sandy
08-09-2017 17:07 (GMT)
@ Loose Cannon - I agree that almost all of the hikers DO NOT look like the pics we have seen so many of. I even thought they had Lyuda's autopsy pic instead of Zina's. I can't tell at all that was Zina. They all have looks of sheer terror on their faces.
I also would have thought the 4 bodies that had 12 ft. of snow piled on them from Feb - May when they were found, would have been much more preserved than they were.
Sandy
08-09-2017 17:03 (GMT)
@Nigel - Some of the bodies being turned over is a FACT. They could tell where the lividity had pooled after they were deceased.
Lividity can be a useful reaction in determining the position of a body at the time of death and even whether a body was moved within the first few hours after death. When the blood cells begin to decompose, the release of the blood forms a bluish-purple bruise.
Lividity can also result when blood flow ceases after death. The blood that was formerly flowing through the body can be drawn to the lowest point in the body by the influence of gravity. For example, if a victim was lying on her right side at the time of death, lividity would be evident on the right side of the face, hip, and on the areas of the right arm and leg that were closest to the ground.
It is known for a FACT that some of the bodies had indeed been turned over.
Loose-Cannon
08-09-2017 16:49 (GMT)
This is interesting to say the least. Not sure how viable it is, but I have wondered myself why in so many of the pictures the subjects do not seem to look like the 9 individuals we have come to know. :/
Maybe Sandy, KMM, and Anna will find this interesting? I dunno
Nigel - This was already addressed about the fire being built & SZ was never a part of it. SZ grasped the seriousness right away & advised the Yuri's NOT to build the fire. It's hard to listen to someone saying that when you almost naked & are freezing to death. Yes, it was stupid but most of them didn't realize it. They thought as soon as the "robbers" left, they'd all return to the tent.
Nigel - if that's all the ques. you need answering then it's pretty obvious just how all the injuries are indeed covered and administered by humans, probably soldiers, agents, some type of experts in hand to hand combat.
I find it almost laughable how you hang onto that ridiculous BL theory & that you think balls of anything could have sustained ALL nine people's injuries!! You're like a junk yard dog when you get ahold of something - you just can't let go.
Nigel/John: You are beating a dead horse. Stop it.
And to Anna: There was never a "storage house" for the robbers to "hide in".
@ Loose Cannon - it wasn't even a piece of soldier legging, more like a small patch torn off from a uniform or coat. Also, your 1st paragraph about Igor/Zina possibly heading back to help is very plausible & that is even mentioned in Death on the Trail.
@Loose Cannon - In D.O.T.T. (Nigel, see above), it was said that there were plenty of dry branches much lower down on the cedar tree that could have been retrieved to use for fire. That it didn't make much sense to go for the way higher up branches, unless someone was either trying to ascertain what was going on at the tent & the robbers or else after Yuri 2 had witnessed Yuri 1 being murdered by sitting on his chest & crushing it, thence the gray liquid found on his cheek. This comes from having your chest cavity crushed. Yuri 2 stayed in the tree as long as he could as he knew he would be murdered next. When Yuri 2's frozen hands couldn't hold on any longer & he fell hard, injuring himself & already almost dead from hypothermia. The "robbers" saw this & left him to die. Nothing further needed to be done, he would be dead soon.
ALL their injuries prove that almost ALL of them had been beaten to death like Loose Cannon posted. They were no match against soldiers.
The reason I believe Lyuda was alive when her tongue was severed L.C. is due to the fact that she had blood in her stomach and had swallowed the blood to get it there. She had to still be alive for this to happen.
I don't know how anyone could possibly believe that balls of ANYTHING personally stalked & killed NINE people and have SO MANY DIFFERENT injuries & most stemming from being beat to death & fighting back themselves. They weren't fighting fireballs, ball lightening or orange orbs.......Had this been the case, the injuries would have been different & I don't believe all 9 would have died. There would have been some survivors.
Nothing like this has EVER happened where a large group of people all die together with like injuries & no survivors.
I think the Yeti theory works better than BL folks.
Loose-Cannon
08-09-2017 16:08 (GMT)
We don't, but Igor is thought to possibly have been. I don't personally put much significance in it. The positioning of the arms etc are very strange though.
Nigel Evans
08-09-2017 15:51 (GMT)
We know that the bodies were turned because?
Loose-Cannon
08-09-2017 15:48 (GMT)
Additionally, if your were to block an incoming blow to the face with your hand up and palm out.... Don't be surprised to find the back of your hand striking your teeth. Sound familiar? Or did the ship rats remove the skin and wedge it between his teeth to save it for later?
Loose-Cannon
08-09-2017 15:03 (GMT)
There wouldn't be a flow into the nose and mouth unless there was a rupture to begin with. Besides, frozen liquids do not flow.... Did you forget the temps?
Yeah... Really looks to be a varmint infested environment to me. NOT!
"Oh, the bloody noses and mouths.... Kinda need a heart beat for that. " Not if they're face down, gravity doing what it does, kinda shot yourself in the foot there. Agreed crows will be detered by the snow, but rodents wont be that's where they live in the winter, under the snow.
Loose-Cannon
08-09-2017 14:07 (GMT)
Accept for the fact some were literally face down in the snow, covered rapidly by blowing snow on the side of a mountain named specifically for its lack of game. Of course then you have the injuries having been documented causing damage to the underlying tissue with swelling etc. Not to mention the fresh bright red baton strike across the mid section. Oh, the bloody noses and mouths.... Kinda need a heart beat for that. Since when do scavengers prefer frozen hands? Everyone knows they go for the eyeballs first.
Nice try. Yuris nose missing sure, but once again, common sense should prevail.
Nigel Evans
08-09-2017 13:48 (GMT)
@LC - Larf, it's very reasonable to point out that YK's nose tip was from scavengers. If the case is proven for one injury then it will apply to others especially on the hands and faces.
Nigel Evans
08-09-2017 13:44 (GMT)
@AllNonBLievers - So YK and YD falling out of the tree solves a problem for the BL theory, it doesn't have to be involved in their deaths. Just scares them all out of the tent and then later moves to the ravine and explodes in the snow bank. Rodents and birds (e.g. Siberian crow) create ambiguous facial and hand injuries consistent with fighting.
Loose-Cannon
08-09-2017 13:37 (GMT)
Laff Nigel... Just when I thought you were turning reasonable.
So YK's big burn seems to be from externally applied heat that charred the ankle with the rest of the leg being protected somewhat from the heat. So the fire is the best candidate, electrocution or microwave heating would behave differently.
Could be an innocent explanation of course, falling out of the tree, concussed and unattended, ditto YD.
I find the way that YK's long johns were cut up to be strange. Why would you want to cut them halfway down and leave one lower half on? Quite weird. Surely the "tubes" would make the best improvised socks...
Loose-Cannon
08-09-2017 12:08 (GMT)
And a burnt sock even closer to the fire which was 1m from the bodies. That's roughly 3 feet.... So the sock was what 6" to maybe 2' away from the fire.
I have also seen pics of this nature but could never find them again recently for the vid.... Like the one on the left here... It was shown partially in your link but the feet were cropped of. https://ibb.co/fUuaJa
So it just seems to be the ankle area that is charred.
Nigel Evans
08-09-2017 11:39 (GMT)
Forgot to mention that site below keeps wrongly associating the YK photos with RS.
Nigel Evans
08-09-2017 11:10 (GMT)
@John - "I must of missed them. Name me some and the names of the dead. (verifiable) " i was thinking of historical accounts. Wrt the TWA800 disaster, i'm with Paul Sagan that BL is a likely candidate but cannot be proven of course.
It's a fair point that the metal could have protected the contents of the flask..
Note that the autopsy says - "There is a burn across the entire surface of the left anticnemion with a size of 31 x 10 cm with parchment density. In the lower third of the left ??? of brown-black colour with charred tissue and the blow out of the cutaneous covering ???? in the middle and upper thirds there is an ambustial surface ???red and light brown colour.
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (p. 215). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition. "
I can't see that damage in those photos, but curiously the right leg is covered...
KMM
08-09-2017 08:48 (GMT)
There were 2 replies to your comment-Nearly all BL accounts have witnesses else you wouldn't have a report?
this one- I've read LOTS of witness reports about alien abductions, ghosts, bigfoot, sea monsters, so yeah,.........
and this one- I must of missed them. Name me some and the names of the dead. (verifiable).
Where I was asking for names of the dead from ball lightning and the people who witnessed them being killed.
KMM
08-09-2017 08:32 (GMT)
Loose-Cannon 08-09-2017 03:42 (GMT) KMM... Could be. Unless she fell against a rock pretty hard, or its somehow attributed to decomposition?
Its just another instance in the autopsy report where they didn't elaborate, much like luda's missing tongue. Seems they left a lot of what would of been useful information out. Makes you wonder why
KMM
08-09-2017 08:18 (GMT)
see: re: KMM 09-06-2017 07:04 (GMT) Nigel : Nearly all BL accounts have witnesses else you wouldn't have a report?
KMM 06-09-2017 07:18 (GMT) nigel Nearly all BL accounts have witnesses else you wouldn't have a report?
Here was my reply to that
I've read LOTS of witness reports about alien abductions, ghosts, bigfoot, sea monsters, so yeah,...........
Anna Yordanova
08-09-2017 08:16 (GMT)
Hi John.My point was that they(killers in my opinion)chose this area,as it was far from any human settlement and they would not leave any witnesses.But as I said I am only guessing.I am not a criminologist, I have a completely different background.
KMM
08-09-2017 08:13 (GMT)
I must of missed them. Name me some and the names of the dead. ........ You didn't post what I asked for ! I asked for verifiable names of the dead
Like you said, you have no way to verify them !
John Wolfe
08-09-2017 07:41 (GMT)
note to LC : it was KMM who demanded a list of verifiable names of witnesses and victims and so on -- so KMM got a list from me.
see: re: KMM 09-06-2017 07:04 (GMT) Nigel : Nearly all BL accounts have witnesses else you wouldn't have a report?
I must of missed them. Name me some and the names of the dead. (verifiable)
John Wolfe
08-09-2017 07:36 (GMT)
Hi Anna, re: your comment about: "But If this has been a planned murder from the beginning" but why do it that way -- if someone was going to do in the entire bunch (for singing? ) they would have been killed right out at the beginning of their hike - not after skiing for a week or more.
also, from the group diary (they were not singing subversive songs -- just singing -- which would annoy any sleeping travelers at the station)
January 24 7.00 (am) We arrived in Serov (town). We traveled with a Blinov's group. They have... things for hunting and other accessories. At the station we were met with hell of a hospitality. They didn't allow us into the building. The policeman stares at us suspiciously. There is no crime or vandalism in the city, as it suppose to be in times of communism. And then Yuri Krivo started a song, the cops grabbed him and took him away. At the attention of citizen Krivonischenko, sergeant explained that the rules of §3 prohibited all activity that would disturb the peace of passengers. It is perhaps the only train station where the songs are forbidden, so we stayed without singing. Finally everything is settled by end fo the day. We are leaving Serov to Ivdel at 6:30 pm. We were welcomed warmly in the school near the railway station. The steward (she is also a janitor) bolied some water, and helped us with everything we needed for the preparation for the trek.
John Wolfe
08-09-2017 07:18 (GMT)
Hi Nigel --- re: your post: Nigel Evans 09-07-2017 09:56 (GMT) @John - "--- any water in / on the tent would flash off at its boiling point (or thereabouts) and so would not heat the molecules (of the other stuff) up enough to cause a change; but a microwave would. "
There was a flask of alcohol in the tent which is unlikely to have survived the heating you're suggesting. I think it was more modest.
first of all -- the alcohol / flask was inside the tent and (most likely) stowed away (not touched - see reports) so there would be layers upon layers of shielding;
second -- the term "flask" leads me to think of a metal one -- brought for the same reason hikers would bring food either preserved (and maybe canned) but never in GLASS -- which would be a problem that would have to be dealt with asap if it broke and would take a lot of time to clean up the glass mess. I've done a lot of back-packing (including months long) and would never take anything in glass -- nor have I seen anyone else do so. The metal flask could heat up but if sealed would not likely be blowup the liquid inside; and it was not reported leaking.
lastly --- the tent would have been covered with snow -- from the continuous snow-fall and blowing -- this would tend to stick if it made the tent wet (from melting) thus forming a shielding layer of sorts (it was absorbing the microwaves)
it would be nice to find out more about that "flask" -- one account called it "medicinal alcohol" -- but another said the searchers drank it in (false hopes) of soon toasting the hikers alive -- the Mansi started quite a row when they suggested that they toast the dead ! (see references to the Mansi having seen/visited the tent and etc. BEFORE the hikers were found by the searchers - taking nothing) --- one site suggested it was "vodka" but none other did.
also: I should add that it is one thing to "boil-off" water, one molecule at a time --- and quite a different thing to continuously irradiate a flask to the point of exploding the flask -- remember that a metal flask would shield the contents from any microwave energy and, in a very cold environment would loose much of its acquired heat (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_shielding
--- or google Faraday cage.
KMM
08-09-2017 06:32 (GMT)
Loose-Cannon 08-09-2017 03:42 (GMT) KMM... Could be. Unless she fell against a rock pretty hard, or its somehow attributed to decomposition?
anything is possible, but idt a bone will decompose in 3 months.
"Hyoid bone fracture is usually the result of direct trauma to the neck because of manual strangulation, hanging, blunt trauma or projectiles. However, hyoid bone fracture caused by a fall has seldom been reported. We report the case of a young man who fell from 1.5 m while painting, which resulted as an isolated hyoid bone fracture. Hyoid bone fracture secondary to trauma may occur when a victim falls with a direct contusion of the neck" http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2211558712000349
John Wolfe
08-09-2017 03:56 (GMT)
re: Nigel Evans 09-07-2017 23:07 (GMT) : setting the flashlight on the tent, and throwing his coat down, near the spot where he had exited (It’s difficult to conceive of another logical scenario that would explain these objects being found where they were).
--- Please note: there are several mentions, on several web-pages of evidence that the Mansi probably came across the hikers and their tent before the search party -- by putting the flashlight and jacket where they were found they were indicating respect for the dead, and an unwillingness to take any of the possessions. (least any Soviet interrogator think 'they did the killing)
Loose-Cannon
08-09-2017 03:42 (GMT)
KMM... Could be. Unless she fell against a rock pretty hard, or its somehow attributed to decomposition?
KMM
08-09-2017 02:25 (GMT)
I'm going to repost this:
from the official autopsy reports
"When palpation is felt, the unusual mobility of the ribs is determined"
"When probing the neck, the unusual mobility of the horns of the hyoid bone and thyroid cartilage is determined"
We know the ribs were broken and the heart punctured, so they had their cause of death. but if the hyoid bone was also broken this is pretty clear evidence of strangulation at, before, or around the time of death.
John Wolfe
08-09-2017 01:25 (GMT)
OK --- Death On The Trail --- thanks -- been there but not all the links yet.
John Wolfe
08-09-2017 01:22 (GMT)
something about the two "labaz" photos bothers me:
I think the rescuer's photo is of some other site. Unless the labaz fell over -- how did the snow appear so deep? --- and where did the large trunk trees go ?
re: Sandy 09-07-2017 17:40 (GMT) said : "You should at least read D.O.T.T ...... " what is DOTT and could you provide a link ?
Loose-Cannon
08-09-2017 00:52 (GMT)
There is like zero signs of footprints around it etc... Even it it had been constructed the day before, you would think signs of them working on it ground level would be obvious.
But you are right LC, too much snow from being new construction and it does say krivonschenko's camera
Loose-Cannon
08-09-2017 00:31 (GMT)
Darn double post... This structure with the recaptcha stinks
Loose-Cannon
08-09-2017 00:29 (GMT)
This above ground structure sure has alot of snow on it for just being constructed. Are you positive this is their cache and not a local indian object? Looks like something native American indians used to 'bury' their dead.... Above ground like this.
KMM
08-09-2017 00:22 (GMT)
"When palpation is felt, the unusual mobility of the ribs is determined" Seems the ribs were described the same as the hyoid bone from external examination
KMM
08-09-2017 00:15 (GMT)
I always thought the structure they built was above ground, idk
Loose-Cannon
08-09-2017 00:10 (GMT)
This above ground structure sure has alot of snow on it for just being constructed. Are you positive this is their cache and not a local indian object? Looks like something native American indians used to 'bury' their dead.... Above ground like this.
Loose-Cannon
08-09-2017 00:05 (GMT)
Wait... Your showing the cache above ground. I saw pictures of the rescue team that found it basically opening up a hole.... Unless I guess it collapsed?
Loose-Cannon
08-09-2017 00:02 (GMT)
Woah woah there cowboy. Lets be fair.
"Well it wasn't much of a hand to hand fight, no broken noses, no torn ears, no black eyes, no gouged eyes, just abrasions and a few bruises. Maybe the soldiers wore boxing gloves? "
Must I post the list of injuries again? Multiple swollen heads, bloody mouths, bloody noses, skin ripped off knuckles down to the bone... Should I post the Zina hand again? Abrasions.... Lets see, you dont get them by putting your shirt on. You get them from contact with another object with enough force to leave a mark! Sounds like fighting to me. Not to mention 90% of them are to the head, face, and hands. So I guess BL REALLY likes themselves some face and hands, or you think they received all this in their simple hiking days prior? Of course we do happen to have THEIR VERY OWN pictures taken the day before and the morning of their last hike..... They sure look fine in the face to me! They received all these injuries THAT NIGHT. FACT.
"and crushed TBS’s skull, neutralizing them without leaving any obvious weapon mark. Must have bee the boxing gloves again. Some punch, cracking the base of the skull as well as the rest of it."
I will repeat myself AGAIN.... Thanks for making me remember something I would rather forget. I have personally witnessed on TWO separate occasions a person punched so hard their skull eye socket was completely crushed inward, the second the temple are much like in this case... I took the person to the damn hospital. Guess what!.. not a single exterior cut or wound of the skin. Now you tell me.... What happens when you add a big freaking stick into the equation?... How about a rock? Now, these folks just happen to be wearing their HATS for the most part. Do you not think a winter beenie can/will help prevent exterior marks upon the affected area? Don't make me pull a John and start copy/pasting autopsy reports.
You are correct on the storage site... It was basically a hole cache with logs over the top from what I can tell.
KMM
07-09-2017 23:41 (GMT)
Luda's autopsy "When probing the neck, the unusual mobility of the horns of the hyoid bone and thyroid cartilage is determined" Wish they had been more specific on this, a fractured hyoid bone is almost always caused by strangulation Poor Luda, she already had enough fatal injuries
The multiple cuts in the tent were created in the panic and confusion of exiting a wriggling collapsed tent cover in the dark. Yeah right, a number of slits were cut along the top of the tent "in confusion". Funny how they are all along one side at the right height for viewing something. No mention of why a camera was found on a tripod when they were just settling in for the night. Don't tripods take up room?
setting the flashlight on the tent, and throwing his coat down, near the spot where he had exited (It’s difficult to conceive of another logical scenario that would explain these objects being found where they were). As suggested before the flashlight would have been useful for "toilet trips". You wouldn't want to wake people up in the night so the flashlight was left outside in a known place perhaps the jacket to.
The Dyaltov party was followed, but not very far. (Their being followed some distance would explain the heeled boot track found among their own tracks as they headed down slope - No one in the group was wearing such boots at this time). This is just not true, NTB was wearing his valenki (felt boots) he was well dressed probably because he was on watch.
They set up a small base camp under a pine tree, Cedar tree actually.
just out of site of the tent, and together built an emergency fire An act of incredible stupidity if they believed there were men out to kill them. Unbelievable that SZ a WW2 veteran could be involved in this. As said before the existence of the fire rules out a sentient threat.
Shortly before dawn, the soldiers returned to make sure no one was left to tell the tale. They discovered the shelter, and a hand-to-hand fight ensued. Well it wasn't much of a hand to hand fight, no broken noses, no torn ears, no black eyes, no gouged eyes, just abrasions and a few bruises. Maybe the soldiers wore boxing gloves?
(This would explain many’s of the group’s injuries, including the bruised metacarples on ID and RS, RS’s concussion, and the baton bruise on ZK.) Maybe there was a scrap between the group but it's not relevant to the deaths imo. I don't see a baton bruise on ZK, this Ian guy would do better to mention her cut hand.
ID, RS, and ZK managed to break free into the darkness. They made a run for the tent, desperate for the axes or anything to help their friends. (Such a level of desperation would explain why they left the group, the shelter, and the fire, when they were so close to freezing that they could only go a few hundred more yards). ZK, a strong and brave young woman came the closest to making it. They were climbing into the wind but all giving up in 330 meters is saying something else imo.
As for the group that was left, the soldiers pressed LD and SZ to death, So how did they "press them to death"? This isn't what the pathologist said.
broke YK’s neck, Assuming he means AK, the pathologist never said the neck was broken. He said it was deformed. It's a curious fact that he didn't investigate this further.
and crushed TBS’s skull, neutralizing them without leaving any obvious weapon mark. Must have bee the boxing gloves again. Some punch, cracking the base of the skull as well as the rest of it.
I don't think the soldier legging is a big issue, there is speculation that the den was a mansi hunter shelter, if so then they could have left it behind. Could have been there for a long time.
KMM
07-09-2017 21:05 (GMT)
I have read where old (pertaining to 1920 military attire) military legging was found in the tent, and also a report saying another was found at the ravine. I believe would of seen it DOT.
IF TRUE, could of belonged to one of the campers also.
KMM
07-09-2017 20:59 (GMT)
I dunno about this 'soldiers clothing'. Where did this come from?
I have read where old (pertaining to 1920 military attire) military legging was found in the tent, and also a report saying another was found at the ravine. I believe would of seen it DOTT.
Anna Yordanova
07-09-2017 20:56 (GMT)
I am gonna repeat again my opinion that the killers have been hidden in the storage house.But If this has been a planned murder from the beginning.They have been refused to enter the railway station(just for singing songs).Isn`t it a bit harsh?Then on the train they got accused of stealing by a drunk man.What if all of this scenarios have been planned in advanced and the group has been watched?Why the chancellor of the University has lied Dubinina`s parents about a telegraph received from Igor Dyatlov.The rescue groups have been sent a week after Dyatlov and group failed to report their arrival.A week!For this time the killers had have plenty of time to cover any prints,to swap clothes between the victims and mess around with evidence in order to puzzle the investigation.What if the killers slit the tent from inside in order to mislead the investigation?I might be wrong,but this ideas came up in my mind all of a sudden and I just decided to share them with you.
Loose-Cannon
07-09-2017 20:32 (GMT)
@Sandy
I dunno about this 'soldiers clothing'. Where did this come from? Its an ok theory I guess. I just hate going down the rabbit hole of explaining every little detail with unknowns. Example, the whole group minus the 2yuris could have been present at the shelter caring for the injured and Igor attempted to reach the tent first. After Igor failing to return, the other two could have made the attempt and found Igor dead along the way.... Could explain reports of him being turned over.
Another example is... The case files describe fairly hefty branches being half burned in the fire pit. Looking at the tree, the branches missing fit the bill. Im not convinced anyone was climbing the tree for any other reason other then to retrieve firewood from dead branches. Its even harder to keep a fire going under those conditions with green wet wood, if not impossible. Remember, all the suitable fallen dead wood was likely covered by the snow and also soaked to the core.
There is plenty of evidence suggesting they were murdered, but similar to any other theory, I think its a loosing battle attempting to rationalize and explain every tiny detail. Thats kinda why the BL theory IMHO is stuck in the mud.
KMM
07-09-2017 20:05 (GMT)
Very plausible theory Sandy,
I don't claim to have all the answers
Loose-Cannon
07-09-2017 19:54 (GMT)
Sick-Em Sandy!
Gotta admit she has some really good points. I don't know if it was murder from within or by outsiders, or if it was BL. I just have a very low tolerance for BS and bullies.
I do however believe the eyes and tongue were missing from natural causes... She was rotted and thawed out face down in a creek.
As far as it goes with Yuri Yudin not recognizing an article of clothing.... I found this. Its from his 'interrogation?'... Yup, even he was questioned.
"The collected money was bought: food and various things and equipment needed in the trek, as a first-aid kit, notebooks, pencils, materials for warming tents, etc., I do not remember everything. Backpacks, skis, boots, tent, ice ax and other equipment were received at the Institute."
There you have it.... "I do not remember everything" when talking about their gear, supplies etc.
Sandy
07-09-2017 19:45 (GMT)
Hi all, I have reposted a theory by Ian on 8/13/16. He basically believes that soldiers murdered them & the military covered it up.
Nigel - See the part about the piece of "soldier garb" that had been taken out of evidence. And it was the military that closed that particular site for 3 years.
This is an EXCELLENT write and theory & I believe every single word of it.
Ian 13-08-2016 14:11 (GMT)
These were young people full of life and ability, who would have brought a lot of good into the world if they had been able to live out their natural lifetimes. The sheer tragedy of this story hasn’t allowed it to leave my mind for days. At least for me, trying to put together a rational explanation of the events brings a little bit of closure. I’m not saying that the hypothetical scenario that follows is what happened, but I do think it fits all of the available evidence. What do you think?
Sometime during the day or evening of Feb 1st, the Dyatlov group encountered a clandestine testing or training operation perhaps involving jets or rockets (This would explain the reports of glowing orange lights and the military debris in the area later noted by YY). It wasn’t the type of situation where there was a fear of the hikers leaking photographs of a secrete weapon (their cameras would have simply been confiscated). For some reason, the group itself came to be perceived as the threat.
The group’s journal records that as they were traveling towards the beginning point of their hike, they sometimes sung anti-revolution songs that could have landed them in jail. They twice had scrapes with authorities on their trip (once for singing). Also from the journal, it appears that they enjoyed free and open debates about a variety of topics. Later, out in the woods hundreds of km from the nearest settlement (journal entry), they probably would have felt even greater freedom in such expressions. Entering into the area of an ongoing operation may have brought them under surveylence, perhaps without their knowledge. An overheard song or a frank debate about politics, combined with their chance-but-perceived-as-“suspicious” presence in a sensitive area, caused them to be viewed as subversive.
They camped that night on open high ground. When one of the members, perhaps SZ or NYB, stepped outside to relieve himself, if it was clear, his flashlight would have been visible for a long distance, alerting anyone in the area who might not have already been aware of their tent’s precise location. Minutes later, as the group was finishing dinner and drying out their clothes, a small armed detachment arrived at the tent. Whoever it was (I’ll call them “soldiers”) knocked the tent down, fired a few rounds into the air, and ordered the hikers outside or they would be shot. (Supposedly, there were no footprints other than the Dyaltov party’s at the tent, but how could one tell? Surely the Dyaltov group made many boot prints when they set up camp, obviously the rescuers were wearing boots days later when they got to the tent. At first no one suspected it could be a crime scene. It is not just possible but probable that a couple extra pairs of footprints at the tent would have gone unnoticed).
Unexpected gunfire and barking orders would have sent a momentary jolt of fear into even these level-headed travelers. Members of the group who had pocket knives at hand quickly cut through the tent to get everyone outside before the threat was carried out. The multiple cuts in the tent were created in the panic and confusion of exiting a wriggling collapsed tent cover in the dark.
The soldiers wanted to neutralize the hikers, but to leave bullet holes or other obvious wounds would have eventually led to strong demands for an explanation from the community. The soldiers chose to expose them to the cold. Under some guise, the soldiers told the Dyatlov group that they had to leave the area immediately. With great presence of mind, the group leader, ID grabbed a flashlight and his heavy coat as he was leaving the tent. He was immediately ordered to leave them behind, setting the flashlight on the tent, and throwing his coat down, near the spot where he had exited (It’s difficult to conceive of another logical scenario that would explain these objects being found where they were).
The Dyaltov party was followed, but not very far. (Their being followed some distance would explain the heeled boot track found among their own tracks as they headed down slope - No one in the group was wearing such boots at this time). They dropped a lit flashlight on the way, either because they were ordered to do so, or in hopes of using it as a beacon to direct them back to the tent if the soldiers left.
Poorly clothed, in extreme cold, and possibly in the dark, these resilient people covered half the distance that they traveled in their entire day’s hike, to arrive at the nearest tree line. This probably took quite a bit of time, and they knew that with their level of exposure the clock was against them. They set up a small base camp under a pine tree, just out of site of the tent, and together built an emergency fire (an impressive feat with frozen wood, in the cold, with no gloves, and possibly in the dark). Afraid that the soldiers were still at the tent, and unsure if they would pursue, YD and YK were posted near the fire to keep a lookout for the soldiers’ approach. (This would explain why branches were broken off so high up in the tree on the side of the tent, when other branches would have been easier to obtain.) Perhaps they kept a lookout from up in the tree as long as they could. Many or all of the injuries on these two individuals were from exposed hands getting frost bite in the tree, eventually leading to them falling out.
The rest of the group proceeded to build a shelter in a protected area, near, but out of site of the lookout tree. The small fire of frozen wood was not enough to keep the injured YD, and YK warm. Even though they burned parts of their numb extremities, they fell asleep. Either someone in the group was with them, or came back to them, showing care and respect by placing the bodies next to each other. The outer clothes, no longer of any use to the deceased, were removed. At this point, the shelter was not yet finished, because some of their clothing was incorporated into it. The survivors did their best to stay warm in the shelter, but were dangerously cold and heartbroken over the deaths.
Shortly before dawn, the soldiers returned to make sure no one was left to tell the tale. They discovered the shelter, and a hand-to-hand fight ensued. (This would explain many’s of the group’s injuries, including the bruised metacarples on ID and RS, RS’s concussion, and the baton bruise on ZK.) Exhausted and freezing, the group was now no match for their assailants even without the use of their guns).
ID, RS, and ZK managed to break free into the darkness. They made a run for the tent, desperate for the axes or anything to help their friends. (Such a level of desperation would explain why they left the group, the shelter, and the fire, when they were so close to freezing that they could only go a few hundred more yards). ZK, a strong and brave young woman came the closest to making it.
As for the group that was left, the soldiers pressed LD and SZ to death, broke YK’s neck, and crushed TBS’s skull, neutralizing them without leaving any obvious weapon mark. (Such a grim scenario would explain the types of injuries sustained by the party members found in the ravine - crushed chests with none of the external cuts or arm injuries that would have certainly happened in a fall, explain why they were all found outside of their nearby shelter, explain the fragment of soldier’s garb found in the ravine, and explain why it was subsequently taken out of evidence). The autopsies of these group members were the most vague, because the coroners had no choice. More detail would have raised still more questions from the community and gotten them in official hot water.
It is significant that YY, who was a part of the group, knew the Dyatlov party’s circumstances better than any living person, and saw all or most of the original evidence, thought that the military had something to do with his friend’s deaths. In 2008, 6 of the original rescuers and a team of 31 experts came to the similar conclusion that military testing was involved. The official report was that the Dyatlov group died at the hands of an “unknown compelling force”. How could words come closer to summarizing the above, without implicating the party responsible? This may also explain why the military closed the area for the following three years.
Any thoughts?
This guy should write a book. His theory is the best thus far. Great job Ian!!
KMM
07-09-2017 19:27 (GMT)
Loose-Cannon - I will start on the link later on tonite, I look forward to reading it. THX again
Sandy
07-09-2017 19:07 (GMT)
You're not quite seeing the "whole" pic. Kind of like you do with your BL passion. I don't see how you can argue a "cover up" when, let's see:
That particular site in the Ural Mountains was CLOSED to, supposedly, everyone for 3 years.
They sealed the files and all the information & kept it all a secret for THIRTY YEARS. That's 3 decades = long time.
They did not investigate this for long. They were told to CLOSE it & they soon did.
It's only been since what? the 90's that it all FINALLY came to light & for people in the U.S. of A. to become aware of it also.
I don't see how you can argue a "cover up" with those 3 facts stated above. Far less things have been done in cover ups. I have no problem believing cops can be "dirty" & will do whatever told if the money's good.
When something is covered up, hushed up, file sealed and closed, for THIRTY years, you might guess some kind of "cover up" is going on.
Right now I"m reading in the 2016 & have found quite an interesting post by Ian, who believes they were also murdered by "soldiers". I'm still in the middle of it.
I think you are blind to the obvious.
Nigel Evans
07-09-2017 18:33 (GMT)
@Sandy - "it was a coverup".
So lets just walk through this, this is Soviet Russia a country famous for putting millions of people in the gulags just for criticising the state, a false word could get you 20 years. But here we have a large investigative effort, a police team and a kgb team being supplied for months by helicopters. All of that to pretend that it wasn't a state coverup? To maintain a deception? I don't think so, the coverup theory just doesn't fit this.
Sandy
07-09-2017 18:10 (GMT)
In 1959 there was a COVER UP. Those 2 questions are the only reasons you can't accept they were murdered by humans? If forensics took a look at the file today, I would imagine they'd agree that most of these hikers were beat to death.
We know there was a cover up since they closed the cases right away, wouldn't let anyone go there for 3 yrs. & kept the files hidden for 30 yrs.?? Perhaps the detective & the pathologist were told what to write & say. Maybe they were offered a great deal of money to write & say what they did. I don't think your 2 questions are important & have nothing to do with nine people's injuries looking as if most of them were beaten & the defensive wounds almost from all show they TRIED to fight back but none of them stood a chance against "the criminals/murderers".
Loose-Cannon
07-09-2017 18:05 (GMT)
KMM.. nevermind. Page loaded slow and didn't see your post. Let us know if you find anything interesting in there.
Loose-Cannon
07-09-2017 18:03 (GMT)
KMM... You get the link?
Sandy
07-09-2017 18:02 (GMT)
Like Loose Cannon says: "They were beat to death". Almost all their injuries keep adding up to this. The only mystery left is WHO and HOW MANY and WTF???
Nigel Evans
07-09-2017 18:01 (GMT)
@Sandy - i'll try just once more with you (given up on the others). Why do you think an experienced police detective who saw everything first hand wrt the DPI doesn't agree with you? Surely it would be in his regular experience to deal with violence, murder etc? Why doesn't an experienced pathologist agree with you?
Sandy
07-09-2017 17:40 (GMT)
I thought posters kept an "open mind" here. All I see for pages and pages is the redundant, STUPID, senseless, impossibility, NO WAY FEASIBLE all nine people DIED from your asinine obsession with BL which I'm assuming I Ball Lightening. I know you've read each of their autopsies & should be intelligent enuf to COMPREHEND what each one states. Almost ALL the hikers were engaged in a hand to hand COMBAT, FIGHTING, BEING ATTACKED, staying in a tree as long as one could b/4 toppling down to avoid someONE, not a BL. They almost all have dried blood on their mouths, abrasions on their faces & it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see they've been in some kind of FIGHT/COMBAT.
Your BL can remove a tongue, take out 2 sets of eyeballs, snap a neck making it deformed, crush chests, crush 3 skulls, one on both sides over & over, break ribs (in Luda's case, almost ALL her ribs on BOTH sides), whack the back of one hiker like a baton, causing her to have a big bruise across her backside & due to the injury, hypothermia set in more quickly.
They just about ALL had skinned knuckles, abrasions to both hands, as if they'd been in a FIGHT. None of them have any signs of being hit by a ball of lightening, fireballs or whatever else is involved in your non-sensical BL theory.
Your BL made them WALK single file down a snowy slope without winter attire to freeze to death? If I was completely terrorized that I would leave a tent in -'20 degree weather without any coat/boots/gloves, I wouldn't be WALKING away from the tent.
It seems as if you entertain no other theories except trying to ram this ridiculous BL theory down our throats here. I honestly can't get this BL of any SORT killing all 9 of these hikers.
I'm not saying this BL doesn't exist, I believe it does and you've certainly proven that by all your links & obsession on your lightening balls/fire balls. It's.absurd.
Here's the problem: There.were.NINE.of.them.
NO WAY NOW or any time, will any kind of fireballs, lightening balls, balls of light, ever KILL a bunch of people. There is nothing in history of this killing off a big GROUP of people with injuries such as the 9. It's not feasible.
You should at least read D.O.T.T. At least it can match all the injuries & offer a great solution as to why they left in taking their time & in like a single file.
KMM
07-09-2017 17:30 (GMT)
THX for the link LC
KMM
07-09-2017 16:28 (GMT)
(Phys.org)—Sightings of ball lightning have been made for centuries around the world – usually the size of a grapefruit and lasting up to twenty seconds
Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2012-10-mystery-ball-lightning.html#jCp https://phys.org/news/2012-10-mystery-ball-lightning.html ......................................... The existence of ball lightning has been hard to confirm by scientists due to the lack of verifiable observations and photographs of the phenomenon. Few will completely deny that ball lightning exists, but those that believe that ball lightning does occur in natural circumstances have not yet been able to formulate conclusive theories. http://stormhighway.com/bl.php ............................................ Ball lightning, also called globe lightning, a rare aerial phenomenon in the form of a luminous sphere that is generally several centimeters in diameter. It usually occurs near the ground during thunderstorms, in close association with cloud-to-ground lightning. It may be red, orange, yellow, white, or blue in colour and is often accompanied by a hissing sound and distinct odour. It normally lasts only a few seconds https://www.britannica.com/science/ball-lightning ........................................... a phenomenon known as “ball lightning”. According to eyewitness reports they last for several seconds, moving through the air before eventually exploding. https://medium.com/looking-up/ball-lightning-b594b6ffea37 ......................................... The numerous accounts of ball lightning – in the past three centuries there have been over 2,000 reports – are contradictory: Observations describe mostly yellowish to reddish balls of up to 20 centimeters in diameter. Their appearance is often attributed to a lightning strike during a thunderstorm. They last for seconds to minutes and vanish quietly or with a bang https://www.ipp.mpg.de/2977926/kugelblitze ......................................... A short-lived glowing ball sometimes observed to float in the air and thought to consist of ionized gas associated with thunderstorms. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ball_lightning ......................................... 3. Lifetime Ball lightnings generally have a lifetime of less than 5 seconds. A small fraction of reports indicate a lifetime of over a minute. http://wiki.wunderground.com/index.php/Educational_-_Ball_lightning ......................................... Ball lightning looks like a floating glowing fuzzy ball of light, usually a few inches to a few feet in diameter. It floats or moves around rooms, airplanes, open areas – and occasionally through solid objects. It usually lasts for a few seconds or, rarely, minutes https://evanhahn.com/ball-lightning/ ..................................................................
I never said it didn't exist, It just does not have the magical properties SOME attribute to it unless they are playing a VIDEO GAME (where it is quite common). Nothing that would cause a group of 8 seasoned hikers to destroy their tent while leaving the other contents inside in reasonable order, all the while forgetting their shoes and warm clothing in -20f weather to WALK a mile, only to be followed by the ball lightning to the cedar tree where it reins death and destruction, then on to the ravine for more death and destruction!
Nigel Evans
07-09-2017 12:07 (GMT)
@LC - good link
Loose-Cannon
07-09-2017 11:46 (GMT)
Oh look, a 4mile long post proving BL exist therefore we must 'weep'. Gimme a freakin break.
Dead birds in photo.... You didn't expect the rescue team to not eat dinner did you? Wow, and this turns inyo 'dead birds everywhere'.
The green cap... Yeah, if you cannot see the FACT its describing the KNOWN HAT found with the sock at the cedar, you need a lesson in common sense. We know these two items existed. You just don't want real evidence and facts to show BL did NOT cause those burns.
@John - "--- any water in / on the tent would flash off at its boiling point (or thereabouts) and so would not heat the molecules (of the other stuff) up enough to cause a change; but a microwave would. "
There was a flask of alcohol in the tent which is unlikely to have survived the heating you're suggesting. I think it was more modest.
John Wolfe
07-09-2017 08:23 (GMT)
re LC : Loose-Cannon 09-02-2017 23:04 (GMT) "dead birds"
Listed under the same section as burnt treetops, warm spot, "rays of warmth" etc.... Right there in the Fireball category without melting anything because it NOW selectively targets objects above a certain height from the ground to be burned etc.
Show me the investigation photographs of these things, or they simply do not exist!
I too would like to see any photos of "burnt tree tops" could never find any mention of photos / but --- dead birds --- from : http://www.viafanzine.jor.br/site_vf/pag/5/dyatlov_part04.htm
"3) Dead birds."
"First responders noticed a large number of dead birds, mainly white ptarmigans, in the forest area where hikers were hiding: in the vicinity of the cedar and the ravine. Consequently, the impact of a deadly force on living organisms would have occurred."
--- this quote is followed by a PHOTO of a rescuer holding two dead birds -- doesn't say much else. To see it go about 1/2 way down the page.
John Wolfe
07-09-2017 07:39 (GMT)
missed these citations :
PREFERENCES Twain M. Letter to an unidentified pawn. 1908. Anon. Maas of fire falls into sea. Scirnce 5:24’2, 20 March 1885, Anon. Electrical phenomena near Weymouth. Nature 1~262, 16 August 1990. Cawkell A E. Personal communication, 4 February 1976, Cade C M. Thunderbolts as the Xweapon. Dticovery 2S:23, November 1962. Argyle E. Ball lightning as an optical illusion. Nature 2S0: 179.80, 1971, Hill E L. Ball lightning. American Scierrtid 58:479, 1970. Charman N. The enigma of ball lightning. New Scientist 566 S2-35, 1972. Altschuler M D. Is ball lightning a nuclear phenomenon? Nature 228:545.46, 1970. Ashby D E T F. & Wbitehead C. Is ball lightning caused by antimatter mcteorim? Nature 230:180.82, 1971. Altschuler M D. Atmsopheric electricity and plasma inte~retations of UFOS, In: Scienh~ic studyof unidentified Jfying obJ”ects, cd. by E.U. Con&n (New York: E.P. Dutton, 1969), Chapter 7. pp. 72 S-55. Uman M A. Some comments on ball lightning. J ,4tmosph Ten Phys 301245-46, 1968. Cttvington A E. Ball lightning. Nature 226:252.55, 1970. Blair A J F. Magnetic fields, ball lightning, and campanology. Nature 243:512, 1973. Kapiras P L. [The nature of globe lightning.] Dokl. Ahud. Nauk SSSR 101:245, 1955. Kapitaa P L. A thermonuclear reactor with a plasma filament freely floating in a hi~hfrequcncy fteld. Sou. Phys JETP 31:199, 1970. Tompkhas D R Jr., Rodney P F & Goading R. A theory of ball lightning, Bull. Amer Phys. Sot. 20:659, 1975 Fieux R, Gary C k Hubert P. Artificially triggered lightning atmve land. Nature 257:212.14, 1975.
John Wolfe
07-09-2017 07:36 (GMT)
re: KMM 09-06-2017 07:04 (GMT) Nigel : Nearly all BL accounts have witnesses else you wouldn't have a report?
I must of missed them. Name me some and the names of the dead. (verifiable)
OK - here's a few -- not that you'd even know how to "verify" them .......
Historical accounts[edit]
It has been suggested that ball lightning could be the source of the legends that describe luminous balls, such as the mythological Anchimayen from Argentinean and Chilean Mapuche culture.
In a 1960 study, 5% of the population of the Earth reported having witnessed ball lightning.[7][8] Another study analyzed reports of 10,000 cases.[7][9]
M. l'abbe de Tressan, in Mythology compared with history: or, the fables of the ancients elucidated from historical records:
… during a storm which endangered the ship Argo, fires were seen to play round the heads of the Tyndarides, and the instant after the storm ceased. From that time, those fires which frequently appear on the surface of the ocean were called the fire of Castor and Pollux. When two were seen at the same time, it announced the return of calm; when only one, it was the presage of a dreadful storm. This species of fire is frequently seen by sailors, and is a species of ignis fatuus. (page 417)
This account, however, shares more commonalities with the St. Elmo's fire phenomenon.[original research?]
Great Thunderstorm of Widecombe-in-the-Moor[edit]
Another early description was reported during the Great Thunderstorm at a church in Widecombe-in-the-Moor, Devon, in England, on 21 October 1638. Four people died and approximately 60 were injured when, during a severe storm, an 8-foot (2.4 m) ball of fire was described as striking and entering the church, having nearly destroyed it. Large stones from the church walls were hurled into the ground and through large wooden beams. The ball of fire allegedly smashed the pews and many windows, and filled the church with a foul sulfurous odour and dark, thick smoke.
The ball of fire reportedly divided into two segments, one exiting through a window by smashing it open, the other disappearing somewhere inside the church. The explanation at the time, because of the fire and sulfur smell, was that the ball of fire was "the devil" or the "flames of hell". Later, some blamed the entire incident on two people who had been playing cards in the pew during the sermon, thereby incurring God's wrath.[1]
The Catherine and Mary[edit]
In December 1726 a number of British newspapers printed an extract of a letter from John Howell of the sloop Catherine and Mary:
As we were coming thro’ the Gulf of Florida on 29th of August, a large ball of fire fell from the Element and split our mast in Ten Thousand Pieces, if it were possible; split our Main Beam, also Three Planks of the Side, Under Water, and Three of the Deck; killed one man, another had his Hand carried of [sic], and had it not been for the violent rains, our Sails would have been of a Blast of Fire.[10][11]
The Montague[edit]
One particularly large example was reported "on the authority of Dr. Gregory" in 1749:
Admiral Chambers on board the Montague, 4 November 1749, was taking an observation just before noon...he observed a large ball of blue fire about three miles distant from them. They immediately lowered their topsails, but it came up so fast upon them, that, before they could raise the main tack, they observed the ball rise almost perpendicularly, and not above forty or fifty yards from the main chains when it went off with an explosion, as great as if a hundred cannons had been discharged at the same time, leaving behind it a strong sulphurous smell. By this explosion the main top-mast was shattered into pieces and the main mast went down to the keel.
Five men were knocked down and one of them very bruised. Just before the explosion, the ball seemed to be the size of a large mill-stone.[2]
Georg Richmann[edit]
A 1753 report depicts ball lightning as having been lethal when professor Georg Richmann of Saint Petersburg, Russia, created a kite-flying apparatus similar to Benjamin Franklin's proposal a year earlier. Richmann was attending a meeting of the Academy of Sciences when he heard thunder and ran home with his engraver to capture the event for posterity. While the experiment was under way, ball lightning appeared and travelled down the string, struck Richmann's forehead and killed him. The ball had left a red spot on Richmann's forehead, his shoes were blown open, and his clothing was singed. His engraver was knocked unconscious. The door frame of the room was split and the door was torn from its hinges.[12]
HMS Warren Hastings[edit]
An English journal reported that during an 1809 storm, three "balls of fire" appeared and "attacked" the British ship HMS Warren Hastings. The crew watched one ball descend, killing a man on deck and setting the main mast on fire. A crewman went out to retrieve the fallen body and was struck by a second ball, which knocked him back and left him with mild burns. A third man was killed by contact with the third ball. Crew members reported a persistent, sickening sulfur smell afterward.[13][14]
Ebenezer Cobham Brewer[edit]
Ebenezer Cobham Brewer, in his 1864 US edition of A Guide to the Scientific Knowledge of Things Familiar, discussed "globular lightning". He describes it as slow-moving balls of fire or explosive gas that sometimes fall to the earth or run along the ground during a thunderstorm. He said that the balls sometimes split into smaller balls and may explode "like a cannon".[15]
Wilfrid de Fonvielle[edit]
In his book Thunder and Lightning,[16] translated into English in 1875, French science writer Wilfrid de Fonvielle wrote that there had been about 150 reports of globular lightning:
Globular lightning seems to be particularly attracted to metals; thus it will seek the railings of balconies, or else water or gas pipes etc, It has no peculiar tint of its own but will appear of any colour as the case may be ... at Coethen in the Duchy of Anhalt it appeared green. M. Colon, Vice-President of the Geological Society of Paris, saw a ball of lightning descend slowly from the sky along the bark of a poplar tree; as soon as it touched the earth it bounced up again, and disappeared without exploding. On 10th of September 1845 a ball of lightning entered the kitchen of a house in the village of Salagnac in the valley of Correze. This ball rolled across without doing any harm to two women and a young man who were here; but on getting into an adjoining stable it exploded and killed a pig which happened to be shut up there, and which, knowing nothing about the wonders of thunder and lightning, dared to smell it in the most rude and unbecoming manner.
The motion of such balls is far from being very rapid – they have even been observed occasionally to pause in their course, but they are not the less destructive for all that. A ball of lightning which entered the church of Stralsund, on exploding, projected a number of balls which exploded in their turn like shells.[17]
Tsar Nicholas II[edit]
Tsar Nicholas II, the last Emperor of Russia, reported witnessing what he called "a fiery ball" while in the company of his grandfather, Tsar Alexander II: "Once my parents were away," recounted the Tsar, "and I was at the all-night vigil with my grandfather in the small church in Alexandria. During the service there was a powerful thunderstorm, streaks of lightning flashed one after the other, and it seemed as if the peals of thunder would shake even the church and the whole world to its foundations. Suddenly it became quite dark, a blast of wind from the open door blew out the flame of the candles which were lit in front of the iconostasis, there was a long clap of thunder, louder than before, and I suddenly saw a fiery ball flying from the window straight towards the head of the Emperor. The ball (it was of lightning) whirled around the floor, then passed the chandelier and flew out through the door into the park. My heart froze, I glanced at my grandfather – his face was completely calm. He crossed himself just as calmly as he had when the fiery ball had flown near us, and I felt that it was unseemly and not courageous to be frightened as I was. I felt that one had only to look at what was happening and believe in the mercy of God, as he, my grandfather, did. After the ball had passed through the whole church, and suddenly gone out through the door, I again looked at my grandfather. A faint smile was on his face, and he nodded his head at me. My panic disappeared, and from that time I had no more fear of storms."[18]
Aleister Crowley[edit]
British occultist Aleister Crowley reported witnessing what he referred to as "globular electricity" during a thunderstorm on Lake Pasquaney[19] in New Hampshire in 1916. He was sheltered in a small cottage when he "noticed, with what I can only describe as calm amazement, that a dazzling globe of electric fire, apparently between six and twelve inches (15–30 cm) in diameter, was stationary about six inches below and to the right of my right knee. As I looked at it, it exploded with a sharp report quite impossible to confuse with the continuous turmoil of the lightning, thunder and hail, or that of the lashed water and smashed wood which was creating a pandemonium outside the cottage. I felt a very slight shock in the middle of my right hand, which was closer to the globe than any other part of my body."[20]
R.C. Jennison[edit]
Jennison, of the Electronics Laboratory at the University of Kent, described his own observation of ball lightning:
I was seated near the front of the passenger cabin of an all-metal airliner (Eastern Airlines Flight EA 539) on a late night flight from New York to Washington. The aircraft encountered an electrical storm during which it was enveloped in a sudden bright and loud electrical discharge (0005 h EST, March 19, 1963). Some seconds after this a glowing sphere a little more than 20 cm in diameter emerged from the pilot's cabin and passed down the aisle of the aircraft approximately 50 cm from me, maintaining the same height and course for the whole distance over which it could be observed.[21]
Other accounts[edit]
Ball lightning entering via the chimney (1886)On 30 April 1877, a ball of lightning entered the Golden Temple at Amritsar, India, and exited through a side door. Several people observed the ball, and the incident is inscribed on the front wall of Darshani Deodhi.[22] On 22 November 1894, an unusually prolonged instance of natural ball lightning occurred in Golden, Colorado, which suggests it could be artificially induced from the atmosphere. The Golden Globe newspaper reported, "A beautiful yet strange phenomenon was seen in this city on last Monday night. The wind was high and the air seemed to be full of electricity. In front of, above and around the new Hall of Engineering of the School of Mines, balls of fire played tag for half an hour, to the wonder and amazement of all who saw the display. In this building is situated the dynamos and electrical apparatus of perhaps the finest electrical plant of its size in the state. There was probably a visiting delegation from the clouds, to the captives of the dynamos on last Monday night, and they certainly had a fine visit and a roystering game of romp."[23] On 22 May 1901 in the Kazakh city of Ouralsk in the Russian Empire (now Oral, Kazakhstan), "a dazzlingly brilliant ball of fire" descended gradually from the sky during a thunderstorm, then entered into a house where 21 people had taken refuge, "wreaked havoc with the apartment, broke through the wall into a stove in the adjoining room, smashed the stove-pipe, and carried it off with such violence that it was dashed against the opposite wall, and went out through the broken window". The incident was reported in the Bulletin of the Societe astronomique de France the following year.[24] In July 1907 the Cape Naturaliste Lighthouse in Western Australia was hit by ball lightning. Lighthouse keeper Patrick Baird was in the tower at the time and was knocked unconscious. His daughter Ethel recorded the event.[25] An early fictional reference to ball lightning appears in a children's book set in the 19th century by Laura Ingalls Wilder.[26] The books are considered historical fiction, but the author always insisted they were descriptive of actual events in her life. In Wilder's description, three separate balls of lightning appear during a winter blizzard near a cast iron stove in the family's kitchen. They are described as appearing near the stovepipe, then rolling across the floor, only to disappear as the mother (Caroline Ingalls) chases them with a willow-branch broom.[27] Pilots in World War II described an unusual phenomenon for which ball lightning has been suggested as an explanation. The pilots saw small balls of light moving in strange trajectories, which came to be referred to as foo fighters. Submariners in WWII gave the most frequent and consistent accounts of small ball lightning in the confined submarine atmosphere. There are repeated accounts of inadvertent production of floating explosive balls when the battery banks were switched in or out, especially if mis-switched or when the highly inductive electrical motors were mis-connected or disconnected. An attempt later to duplicate those balls with a surplus submarine battery resulted in several failures and an explosion.[28] On 6 August 1944, a ball of lightning went through a closed window in Uppsala, Sweden, leaving a circular hole about 5 centimeters (2.0 in) in diameter. The incident was witnessed by residents in the area, and was recorded by a lightning strike tracking system[29] on the Division for Electricity and Lightning Research at Uppsala University.[30] In 1954 Domokos Tar, a physicist, observed a lightning strike during a heavy thunderstorm.[31][32] A single bush was flattened in the wind. Some seconds later a speedy rotating ring (cylinder) appeared in the shape of a wreath. The ring was about 5 meters (16 ft) away from the lightning impact point. The ring's plane was perpendicular to the ground and in full view of the observer. The outer/inner diameters were about 60 and 30 centimeters (24 and 12 in) respectively. The ring rotated quickly about 80 cm (31 in) above the ground. It was composed of wet leaves and dirt and rotated counter clockwise. After seconds the ring became self-illuminated turning increasingly red, then orange, yellow and finally white. The ring (cylinder) at the outside was similar to a sparkler.[33] In spite of the rain, many electrical high voltage discharges could be seen.[34] After some seconds, the ring suddenly disappeared and simultaneously the ball lightning appeared in the middle. Initially the ball had only one tail and it rotated in the same direction as the ring. It was homogeneous and showed no transparency. In the first moment the ball hovered motionless, but then began to move forward on the same line with a constant speed of about 1 metre per second (3.3 ft/s). It was stable and travelled at the same height in spite of the heavy rain and strong wind. After moving about 10 m (33 ft) it suddenly disappeared without any noise. On 10 July 2011, during a powerful thunderstorm, a ball of light with a two-metre (6 ft 7 in) tail went through a window to the control room of local emergency services in Liberec, Czech Republic. The ball bounced from window to the ceiling, then to the floor and back to the ceiling, where it rolled along it for two or three meters. Then it dropped to the floor and disappeared. The staff present in the control room were frightened, smelled electricity and burned cables and thought something was burning. The computers froze (not crashed) and all communications equipment was knocked out for the night until restored by technicians. Aside from damages caused by disrupting equipment, only one computer monitor was destroyed.[35] On Dec 15th 2014, flight BE-6780 (Saab 2000) in the UK experienced ball lightning in the forward cabin just before lightning struck the aircraft nose.[36]
not that you read but here's something you ought to try and read (its short - don't worry):
Thunder is good, thunder is impressive; but it is lightning that does the work. --Mark Twainl Lightning has always terrified and fascinated people. It has also inspired many myths and much superstition. For example, some misinformed people righteously assert that lightning never strikes twice in the same place. Actually, the odds for lightning hitting twice in the same spot are excellent. The conditions that attracted it in the first place--a protninence in a flat area, for example--are likely to attract it again. The Greeks and Remans thought thunderbolts were weapons of the gods. Since scientists have now explained ordinary streak lightning as a high-voltage electrical discharge, people’s fascination has been transferred to the other forms of lightning: sheet lightning, in which no single bolt is visible; St. Elmo’s fire, a glow emitted by charged objects such as airplane wings; and ball lightning (also called ‘‘Kugelblitz’ ‘). Ball lightning is usually described as a moving, luminous sphere which lasts a few seconds and then dies out, either silently or explosively. Ball lightning is probably the most mysterious lightning phenomenon because scientists have utterly failed to explain it. Many researchers have viewed reports of ball lightning with the kind of skepticism and distaste usually reserved for reports of psi phenomena and UFOS. Until recently, scientists even debated the existence of ball lightning--explaining it as hallucination, optical illusion, or observer hysteria. The only evidence for it was anecdotal, mainly from amateur sightings. But reports of ball lightning have appeared in the scientific press for over a century. In 188S, science published this account by a ship’s captain named Waters: “All at once a large mass of fire appeared over the vessel, completely blindlng the spectators; and, as it fell into the sea some fifty yards to leeward, it caused a hissing sound, which was heard above the blast, and made the vessel quiver from stem to stem.”2 In 1930, an anonymous account in Nature reported that “a number of globes of light were seen of the size of billiard balls, extending from a few inches above the surface to a height of 7-8 feet. They slowly rose and fell vertically, sometimes within a few inches of the observers but always eluding the grasp.”3 It is always pleasant for me to demonstrate the creative use of information retrieval. The ball lightning phenomenon, with its combination of mystery and possible utility, is just such an opportunity. I hope that the new generation of science teachers will use the information retrieval techniques described here to get students interested in tracing the history of other scientific discoveries. By using the Science Citation tndefl in this way, students can feel the excitement of discovery as the threads of scientific cloth are unraveled. According to the results of a search by my versatile colleague, A.E. Cawkell,4 an article with the incredL ble title “Thunderbolts as the X-Weapon” appeared in November 1%2 in the now defunct journal Diseavery. The paper, by C. M. Cade, contained this account of an attempt to calculate the energy of ball lightning: “A fireball ‘the size of a large orange’ which was observed in Dorstone, Hereford, on October 3rd, 1936, fell into a water butt containing about four gallons of water, which tilled for some minutes, and 20 minutes later was still too hot for the human hand. From this data, Professor B.L. Goodlet has calculated that the minimum energy of this fireball was 3,800 kilowatt-seconds....”5 Unfortunately, the author supplies no further reference for the mysterious Professor Goodlet. So the detective work begins. As it turns out, we were unable to find anyone who had ever cited Cade’s paper, at least within the 15 years we’ve compiled the SCF’ . But as I’ve often repeated, a name ms,y be all one needs to begin an SCI search. Goodlet’s papers in the J LEE were cited in 1970 by M.D. Altschuler of the National Center for Atmospheric Research, Boulder, Colors@ in 1971 by E. Argyle of the Dominion Radio Astrophysical Observatory, British Columbia; and again in 1971 by P.C. W. Davies of the Institute of Theoretical Astronomy, Cambridge, England. This is shown in the figure opposite, in which we have provided a selected portion of the now extensive ball lightning literature. In 1971, Argyle drew parallels between ball lightning and visual afterimages: “The behavior and apparent properties of the positive afterimage are strikkgly similar to those of ball lightning. Its shape wiU be the same as that of the exciting source, and it will commonly be described as a ball . . . . Positive afterimages last 2-10 seconds, depending on circumstances, and most lightning balls are reported to have a duration in the same range. Positive afterimages dkappear rather suddenly, as do lightning balls.”6 Argyle dismissed Goodlet’s report that water in a rain barrel had been heated by ball lightning as ‘‘unreliable.” Each explanation advanced for the ball lightning phenomenon is unsatisfactory in some respect. Early explanations held that ball lightning is formed by the combustion of material released by a lightning stroke on its impact with the ground. This material, either particles or gases, might be confined by a vortex, in the same manner as a smoke ring. Edward Hill of the University of Minnesota modified this theory to suggest that when a lightning stroke produces a separation of charges in such a ball of material, miniature lightning strokes occur within the ball. T. Neugebauer postulated that ball lightning consists of dense plasma containing large numbers of free electrons and positive ions. Altschuler and his colleagues suggested that ball lightning may be a nuclear phenomenon involving the production of radioactive products, whose beta-decay would cause a glow in surrounding air molecules. A bizarre but not implausible theory was discussed in the same 19 March 1971 issue of Nature in which Argyle’s “optical illusion” article was published. An article by D. E.T.F. Ashby and C. Whitehead of the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority suggested that ball lightning is caused by antimatter meteorites which annhilate normal matter, creating a luminous ball. Actually, this idea was first proposed by Ahschuler, who wrote in 1969 that “the hypothesis of antimatter meteorites is intriguing. lf a significant amount of antimatter does exist in the universe, it is possible that tiny grains of antimatter might penetrate our galaxy and collide with the earth’s atmosphere. Entering at high speeds, the grain might survive until it reached the troposphere. A fraction of a microgram of antimatter would destroy an equal mass of matter and release many megajoules of energy, perhaps creating luminous spheres.” The antimatter theory was supported when Ashby and Whitehead, using radiation detectors, observed four ‘‘unusual” radiation events. They concluded that, “The radiation events are consistent with the proposed existence of micron-sized particles of antimatter and their duration is similar to that of ball lightning; however, the correlation with thunderstorms is uncertain.” As the ball lightning phenomenon became more scientifically respectable, two particular “events” began to be discussed by many authors. The first was Jennison’s (University of Kent) 1969 report of a lightning ball passing down the central aisle of an aircraft. Since the plane was a tanker with a full load of aviation fuel, one can imagine the observer’s relief when the yellow-white lightning ball ““danced out over the right wing” and disappeared into the night. The second event was Covington’s (National Research Council of Canada) 1970 observations of a drifting lightning ball which demolished the pile of a wharf, and of another lightning ball which emerged from the fireplace in a lakeside house, traveled across the room, and passed through a closed door without causing any damage. Is The two articles by Argyle and Ashby were cited in several letters to journals in 1971. Argyle’s idea that ball lightning is an optical illusion was rebutted by authors who cited their own and other observers’ welldocumented sightings. Ashby’s antimatter notion had a mixed reception. The UFO phenomenon entered the ball lightning story via AkschuIer’s 1969 article in the Condon UFO report, which explained some UFO sightings as ball lightning. The chapter was cited by several authors. As an exercise in demonstrating that all phenomena and disciplines are somehow connected to one another, the ball lightning story has few equals. In 1973, for example, A.J. P. Blair of Germany used a novel method to calculate the magnetic energy in a lightning ball as 1S0 gauss. Nature carried the report, which stated, “In the parish of Samford-Courtney in Devon on October 7, 1811, a sudden darkness came on, and a tire ball fell in the vicinity of the church. The ringers in the belfry, ringing at the time, declared that they never knew the bells go so heavy, and were obliged to desist ringing. Looking down from the belfry into the church, they perceived four fire balls, which suddenly burst, and the church was fdled with fire and smoke, some of which ascended to the tower, where a large beam, on which one of the bells was hung, was broken, and the gudgeon breaking, the bell fell to the floor.There is also a connection to nuclear fusion in the ball lightning story. In a well-cited 1955 article, the Russian physicist Peter Kapitsa proposed that ball lightning results from a standing wave system in the electromagnetic field which accompanies thunderstorms. Windows and chimneys, through which ball lightning is often reported to have travelled, would act as waveguides for these standing waves. Elements of this idea were later used in a Soviet experimental fusion reactor, and stable balls of plasma were produced. Another theory involves focused cosmic-ray particles, and still another postulates that ball lightning is produced by the decay of ordhary lightning in the presence of large amounts of water. The theoretical situation regarding ball lightning still is rather confused. It has not vet been determined whether ball lightning is a single phenomenon or a series of phenomena with diverse origins. No one has succeeded in producing ball lightning in the laboratory, although a few photographs have been reported. Just a year ago, in a search for photographic evidence of ball lightning, two researchers at the University of Wyoming examined over 10,000 Prarie Meteorite Network photographs which contained images of over 100,000 lightning strokes. They reported tindlng six ball lightning ‘‘caddate” events. “In all of the ball candidate events the scenario is the same: an ordinary appearing lightning stroke ends above ground and what appears to be a ball (producing a sequence of images) falls out of it and goes to earth. ” 17 More recently, photographic evidence of an object “which may be similar to some varieties of ball lightning” was reported in September 1975 by three French authors, R. F;eux and C. Gary of Electricity de France, Direction des Etudes et Recherches, and P. Hubert of Commissariats 2 l’Energie Atomique, Service d’Electronique Physique, Centre d’Etudes Nuc16aires de Saclay. In a kind of reenactment of Benjamin Franklin’s kke-and-key lightning experiment, they launched rockets with wires attached into the atmosphere. This technique was developed, they said, “in the hope of perhaps shedding new light on the controversial subject of ball lightning, since according to published statistics ball lightning is mentioned in more than 40% of the cases in which an observer describes a nearby lightning stroke. ” Although these researchers did not observe anything “comparable with the more remarkable tales of ball lightning folklore,” they did observe and photograph the appearance of luminous “beads” during the decay of triggered lightning. “The beads generally have an initial diameter of the order of 40 cm which decreases gradually with a total lifetime of 0.3s at most. During long-lasting strokes, the initially straight channel adopts on a progressively more tortuous shape and the biggest beads occur where tortuousness is a maximum. Since there is a positive correlation between diameter and lifetime, it follows that at the end of the decay there are one or two luminous balls only. In general these objects have an upward motion of 1 or 2 m s -1, which gives an overall picture consistent with the hypothesis of a gradually cooling spheroid of hot gas. ” In the same paper, the authors lend support to the early theory involving combustion of material released from the ground. They note that “light emission occurred at the foot of wooden posts” in the test area. “The light-emitting region was stationary, in contact with the ground at the place where the post enters the earth. Its shape seems roughly spherical with a diameter of about 25 cm . ...” They comment, “It is not surprising that some underground outgassing occurs and that the gasses escape at the point where the posts puncture the uPPer layer. It remains to be decided whether the light comes from hot gases only or from a combustion involving hydrogen or methane, for instance, or from a localized electric discharge mechanism. ” Just a few weeks ago, Mark Stenhoff of the Physics Department of Royal Holloway College reported a case in which a woman touched and was injured by ball lightning. Stenhoff reported in Nature that on 8 August 1975, the woman, who lives in the Midlands area of England, was in her kitchen during a thunderstorm “when a sphere of light appeared over the cooker. The ball twas z 10 cm across and surrounded by a flame-colored halo; its color was bright blue to purple. The ball moved straight towards the witness at an estimated height of 95 cm from the ground. Burning heat was felt, and there was a singeing smell. A sound something like a“rattle was heard.”19 The woman herself reported that, “The ball seemed to hit me below the belt, as it were, and I automatically brushed it from me and it just disappeared. Where 1 brushed it away there appeared a redness and swelling on my left hand. It seemed as if my gold wedding ring was burning into my finger. ” The lightning ball produced a hole in the woman’s dress and underwear at the point where it struck her. Her legs became red and numb. The woman, who had never before heard of ball lightning, felt that the ball exploded just as she touched it. Commenting on this report in a Nature editorial, P.C. W. Davies notes that progress in ball lightning research is hampered by the lack of precise, reliable observational data. He suggests that, “The present unsatisfactory situation would be greatly improved if the aura of mystery and superstition surrounding unusual aerial events were dispelled. Good, detailed eye-witness reports of luminous balls are frequently made by competent ob-, servers such as airline pilots, but are rarely passed on to scientists. Instead, many of them find their way into miiitary tiles, where they are shrouded in a ridiculous secrecy. (Incredibly, the British Ministry of Defence continues to deny scientists access to their accounts of these events. ) With proper cooperation between scientists and the public, particularly the local press, and the civil aircraft authorities, it would be possible to follow up ball lightning reports rapidly, enabling tests for radioactivity and so forth to be carried out. “20 To help clarify the situation, a few individuals have turned their energies to collecting ball lightning rep&-ts. One of these is William Corliss of Glen Arm, Maryland, a consultant to NASA who has compiled Strange Phenomena, Zf a ‘‘sourcebook” which contains abstracts of 75 ball lightning reports. Also notable is the ball lightning bibliography compiled by J.D. Barry of the US Air Force’s Space and Missile Systems Organization, Los Angeles. This bibliography, copies of which are available from the author, cites over 1,100 ball lightning reports and references spanning 3S0 years.22 Another excellent source of information on the scientific history of ball lightning is a book published in 1971, The Nature of Ball Lightning by Stanley Singer, director of Athenex Research Associates, Pasadena, Califomia. According to Singer, Faraday felt that any relation between ball lightning and streak lightning was “more than doubtful, ” and Lord Kelvin held that ball lightning was nothing more than an optical illusion. Returning to the 1962 article by Cade, we’ve been unable to find any other articles about “X-Weapons.” Maybe the idea was impractical--or maybe the work was so successful that it was classified. What surprises me most about the ball lightning story is the failure of any leading American or Soviet journal to present a comprehensive discussion of this area of research. The state of the literature on ball lightning is similar to Shakespeare’s description of Romeo and Juliet’s love: It is too rash, too unadvis ‘d, too sudden: Too like the lightning; which cloth cease to be Ere one can say it lightens.
PREFERENCES Twain M. Letter to an unidentified pawn. 1908. Anon. Maas of fire falls into sea. Scirnce 5:24’2, 20 March 1885, Anon. Electrical phenomena near Weymouth. Nature 1~262, 16 August 1990. Cawkell A E. Personal communication, 4 February 1976, Cade C M. Thunderbolts as the Xweapon. Dticovery 2S:23, November 1962. Argyle E. Ball lightning as an optical illusion. Nature 2S0: 179.80, 1971, Hill E L. Ball lightning. American Scierrtid 58:479, 1970. Charman N. The enigma of ball lightning. New Scientist 566 S2-35, 1972. Altschuler M D. Is ball lightning a nuclear phenomenon? Nature 228:545.46, 1970. Ashby D E T F. & Wbitehead C. Is ball lightning caused by antimatter mcteorim? Nature 230:180.82, 1971. Altschuler M D. Atmsopheric electricity and plasma inte~retations of UFOS, In: Scienh~ic studyof unidentified Jfying obJ”ects, cd. by E.U. Con&n (New York: E.P. Dutton, 1969), Chapter 7. pp. 72 S-55. Uman M A. Some comments on ball lightning. J ,4tmosph Ten Phys 301245-46, 1968. Cttvington A E. Ball lightning. Nature 226:252.55, 1970. Blair A J F. Magnetic fields, ball lightning, and campanology. Nature 243:512, 1973. Kapiras P L. [The nature of globe lightning.] Dokl. Ahud. Nauk SSSR 101:245, 1955. Kapitaa P L. A thermonuclear reactor with a plasma filament freely floating in a hi~hfrequcncy fteld. Sou. Phys JETP 31:199, 1970. Tompkhas D R Jr., Rodney P F & Goading R. A theory of ball lightning, Bull. Amer Phys. Sot. 20:659, 1975 Fieux R, Gary C k Hubert P. Artificially triggered lightning atmve land. Nature 257:212.14, 1975. 19. Stenhoff M. Ball lightning. Nature 2~5552):596-97, 15 April 1976. 20. Davies P C W. Ball lightning. Nature 260(5552) :57S, 15 April 1976. $!1. Corlh W R. (compiler) Stra~e PhenomenaGlen Arm, Maryland: Corliss, 1974. 22. Barry J D. Bibliography of ball lightning rcpsa. f Atmo#sh. Terr. Phys. S&1577, 1974. 23. Singer S. The nature OJ ball Itj@tnsisg (New York: Plenum Prcra,1971) 169pp. 24. Shakespeare W. Romeo andJtdiet Act 2, Scene 2.
there you go - read'emandweep !
John Wolfe
07-09-2017 07:09 (GMT)
re: KMM 09-06-2017 07:45 (GMT) Tunguska 1908 The explosion released enough energy to kill reindeer and flatten trees for many kilometers around the blast site. But no crater was ever found.
Sounds like ball lightning to me ! 8-)
--- actually, you are right even though you thought you were making a little joke (very little). The Tunguska explosion was the result of an AIR BURST ! like the proverbial ball lightning you detest --- the hypothesis is that some of the BL can explode in an AIR BURST --- waddiyaknow ..... you and agree on something !
John Wolfe
07-09-2017 07:01 (GMT)
re LC : "Near the fire, a half-burnt sock and a cowboy shirt were found. In the shirt money - 8 rubles. Semi-burnt helmet of greenish color. North of the fire at a distance of one meter head to the west, legs to the east near the corpses lie in the number of two."
--- you once again missed the point --- not that you can't approximately decipher the meaning --- but that the translator can't even make a sentence --- I POINT OUT THAT YOU SUPPLIED THE VERB MAKING THE SENTENCE MAKE SENSE: "In this case the statement is referring to the cap FOUND on the scene." or conversely it could supply a connective to the previous sentence. such as "and a" So we don't always know if we are interpreting the translator correctly.
John Wolfe
07-09-2017 06:28 (GMT)
re: the link itself is OK but the images are not (as far as I can tell) DO NOT CLICK ON THE IMAGES !
John Wolfe
07-09-2017 06:17 (GMT)
Hi Nigel;
re: " don't think the canvas could be tested for microwaves other than showing it's been exposed to heat via water content heating up. "
--- there might be some subtle changes in molecular structure -- of coating, of dyes, of glues, perhaps the canvas -- a thing like flipping the position of a bond and bending a molecule into a different shape would show up. What I don't know is can someone get samples of the original materials that the cloth was treated with --- un-irradiated --- to compare with the tent.
--- any water in / on the tent would flash off at its boiling point (or thereabouts) and so would not heat the molecules (of the other stuff) up enough to cause a change; but a microwave would.
KMM
07-09-2017 04:46 (GMT)
Loose-Cannon 06-09-2017 22:39 (GMT) KMM... Cotcha, no worries (thumbs up)
YES, please post that link. THX
Loose-Cannon
06-09-2017 22:54 (GMT)
I would like to setup a forum discussion board for this topic for all interested. However, I do not wish to be the sole dictator and own the domain name and have control over the hosting/cpanel etc. I have alot of experience with this. If anyone already has about 3gigs avail space on an existing host and is interested, please let me know. Here is one of my works... Over 600 members. http://sks-files.com/index.php there is also a bunch of features you cannot see until you are a member. It can be setup in just about a day. Contributors can post information to be stickied, all related case files can be stored for easy access etc. The possibilities are endless. But I won't be the boss and owner.... Someone else can be administrator in chief.
Loose-Cannon
06-09-2017 22:39 (GMT)
KMM... Cotcha, no worries (thumbs up)
That was kinda the point in posting it. All kinds of tidbits can be obtained from the original case files. They are actually more thorough then I had previously thought. Do you want me to post the link to the viewable files so you can read the real deal?
KMM
06-09-2017 19:53 (GMT)
As for nigel not responding to my comments, I couldn't care less. Nigel can't answer the hard questions, he needs the easy ones that their is no obvious answer for. Allowing him to pull out the magical BL wand and ascribe to it any property or action that he deems necessary!
KMM
06-09-2017 18:46 (GMT)
KMM 06-09-2017 05:12 (GMT) LC : Is there something specific here you are pointing out ? besides the part about the green helmet I probably skimmed over in my readings
And LC, I responded to your comment because I thought we could discuss something maybe you had noticed in the "original files.
KMM
06-09-2017 17:12 (GMT)
Sure would be nice to have two boards, one for the people that don't know what happened to the hikers, and another one for the people with ALL the answers.
KMM
06-09-2017 16:54 (GMT)
When I first started posting here, I thought this was a place where a person could ask questions, get answers, debate, a general place to hash out ideas. Boy, was I wrong ,here are the 1st 2 replies I received to a question I had asked :
"sorry if my years if study intimidates you -- that's your problem not mine." "Once again: read ALL of my posts as I have already answered many of these questions before"
Didn't take me long to drop to this level
Seems it has to be about BL, the way I see it the BL people have ONLY 2 things to point to, "someone has seen lights in the sky" and what I take to be some damaged or accidental exposures. Everybody has a right to their own opinion. But when you go to attacking me, your going to get it back. (probably not the best way to be) It seems every comment has to be about the God BL and BL explains EVERYTHING ! It feels like your being indoctrinated into a cult !!!
Loose-Cannon
06-09-2017 14:45 (GMT)
"I'm considering just not responding to you or KMM anymore because you're just dragging the quality of the conversation into ignorant idiot territory."
There ya go... Take your ball and go home because you don't agree with someone while bullying them with names. Simply because you do not like what your hearing doesn't constitute a decline in conversation quality. You Nigel, have just as much part in all this as I do. Its still a free country Nigel, do as you please. BTW... You have posted alot of stuff and its hard to keep track of exactly what you do or do not subscribe to, but I do recall alot of assigning burns to BL.
What clothing articles were burned by the stove?
Nigel Evans
06-09-2017 13:51 (GMT)
@LC - as much as i hate getting into cheap pantomime "oh yes it is, oh no it isn't" i have to yet again point out that you're talking rubbish because you never read anything that's posted. Search for "concussed or unattended" should be 4 posts most of them recent where i specifically point out the existence of the fire creates ambiguity as to the origin of the burns. The clothing is of course even more ambiguous because (as i've also pointed out) the stove had a habit of burning drying clothing. I'm considering just not responding to you or KMM anymore because you're just dragging the quality of the conversation into ignorant idiot territory. We really need a BB where people can filter others out.
Loose-Cannon
06-09-2017 12:38 (GMT)
Why am I not surprised.... The first step to recovery is admitting not all aspects of the case have to involve BL.
You... By default, were the one explaining away burns having 'had' to be made via fireball. They were only 1m away from the fire btw...
Nigel Evans
06-09-2017 08:36 (GMT)
@LC - if you had a point to make in that last post - 06-09-2017 08:25 i missed it...
Loose-Cannon
06-09-2017 08:25 (GMT)
Hi Nigel and KMM!
"Near the fire, a half-burnt sock and a cowboy shirt were found. In the shirt money - 8 rubles. Semi-burnt helmet of greenish color. North of the fire at a distance of one meter head to the west, legs to the east near the corpses lie in the number of two."
Now, anyone having an issue with the context of these statements is just a full blown retard. If you ever bother to look at the original case files instead of having your head up each others ballsack, you will know what was found where. In this case the statement is referring to the cap found on the scene. Further more it tells the condition of said cap which I will leave to Nigel yo tell you whom it belonged to and why it was burnt and the head/hair was slightly burnt ...... Being found next to a god damn fire that is.
"The right leg is undressed, on the left is a torn brown sock identical to the detected half-burned near the fire."
Well lookie there... The left leg wearing the matching sock to the burnt sock found next to the fire. Interesting to note, Nigel would have one believe "oh they were drying their cloths over a fire for days". Unfortunately... Per the facts, the investigators made no extra mention to the other articles of clothing being burned. Now, you can run around the facts all day long but you know, and I know... That these items were addressed in a spicific condition because the condition was not of the others. In other words, this is NOT regular old drying of clothes.
You have a burned head and cap, you have a burned leg and sock. All next to a FIRE (which had pretty large half burned branches btw). The extent some have gone to twist the burned leg and head into being cosmic rays, BL electrical burns and the like are just plain false. Having the integrity to admit common sense can go a long freaking way is another matter.
Again.... Read the original case files. They are THE ONLY known documented facts we have. No fantastical conjecture required. The facts shown above are basic, and other examples are quite abundant within the evidence if you ditch the tunnel vision for just a moment.
@john. Just stop trolling me and being a baby. Your BL theory is no more important then any of the others, and your not convincing anyone otherwise by posting a buncha crap stating BL exists.
KMM
06-09-2017 08:24 (GMT)
DAMN, Someone beat me to it, as Nigel has pointed out. I thought I would be famous.
KMM
06-09-2017 08:19 (GMT)
My new theory on Tunguska, SUPER DUPER - ball lightning! evidence : some people reported seeing a light in the sky! If anyone has a camera from that period that laid out in the snow and water for 3 months, PLEASE send it to me. How can anyone doubt me with this kind of evidence ?
Tunguska 1908 The explosion released enough energy to kill reindeer and flatten trees for many kilometers around the blast site. But no crater was ever found.
Sounds like ball lightning to me ! 8-)
KMM
06-09-2017 07:22 (GMT)
Nigel : I'd like to connect the burnt clothing with BL but the stove prevents this.
Why should that stop you, nothing else ever has !
KMM
06-09-2017 07:18 (GMT)
nigel Nearly all BL accounts have witnesses else you wouldn't have a report?
I've read LOTS of witness reports about alien abductions, ghosts, bigfoot, sea monsters, so yeah,............
KMM
06-09-2017 07:11 (GMT)
You could have a field day with the Franklin expedition if it wasn't for the notes left behind or those pesky Inuit witnesses. I'm sure the Inuit have lots of stories to tell about "lights in the night sky" Donner party ? nope survivors. Definite Indain stories about strange lights
KMM
06-09-2017 07:04 (GMT)
Nigel : Nearly all BL accounts have witnesses else you wouldn't have a report?
I must of missed them. Name me some and the names of the dead. (verifiable)
Nigel Evans
06-09-2017 06:54 (GMT)
@John - don't think the canvas could be tested for microwaves other than showing it's been exposed to heat via water content heating up.
@KMM - " You could use BL theory on any group that died with no survivors and no witnesses, but it has never worked where someone has survived. YOU EVER WONDER WHY ? " Lots of accounts on this site with witnesses. Nearly all BL accounts have witnesses else you wouldn't have a report?
@LC - if it's the burnt clothing the problem here is that they've spent a week drying their clothing on the stove and regularly burning it if the person on watch wasn't attentive. Hence photo of burnt jacket. I'd like to connect the burnt clothing with BL but the stove prevents this.
John Wolfe
06-09-2017 06:06 (GMT)
once again I want to warn you do not go to that site I listed on the comment: John Wolfe 09-05-2017 17:43 (GMT) --- the images are so poor, you want to click on them to try to get a better image -- but -- if you click on them you get an enlarged image -- and a redirect. Its malware !
KMM
06-09-2017 05:56 (GMT)
"trouble is what I see is a bad auto translation" "What's your "theory" about the snow melted into ice?"
Why does bad translation figure into LCs comment BUT not what you post woofie ??
KMM
06-09-2017 05:38 (GMT)
Its got to be all about that ball lightning BS, You could use BL theory on any group that died with no survivors and no witnesses, but it has never worked where someone has survived. YOU EVER WONDER WHY ?
John Wolfe
06-09-2017 05:16 (GMT)
once again: ( re: LC post of original material -- "How about look at the original case files?" ) trouble is what I see is a bad auto translation ......
exactly what does "Semi-burnt helmet of greenish color. " mean ?? Its not even close to a sentence. (not that LC would notice)
or what does : "legs to the east near the corpses lie in the number of two" mean ???
is that clear ?..... or what ? --- I'm going with what. What we know for sure that is --- numerous reports of something like ball lightning, accompanied by reports of explosions --- by numerous people and groups, spanning over a hundred years in time -- IN THAT AREA ! People who had no reason to even know each other existed -- no plot to confuse anyone -- they simply were reporting what they saw and heard -- ball lightning. (or whatever you want to call it) As for people who are just dead set on a murder plot -- put up or shut up -- show us some evidence. You're wasting precious digital space with your malarkey -- show me a decent translation to make sense out of. Otherwise you're just trying to waste our time with BS. What's your "theory" about the snow melted into ice? Yeti with flame-throwers? Martian landing craft ? Any reports of those in the last 100 years ? Do you seriously think the starved-for-cash-Soviet-Government tested some sort of secret weapon which no one has ever heard of (nor ever seen) by killing very expensive students of science and engineering ? ? ? You're out of your nut !
KMM
06-09-2017 05:12 (GMT)
LC : Is there something specific here you are pointing out ? besides the part about the green helmet I probably skimmed over in my readings
Loose-Cannon
06-09-2017 04:24 (GMT)
Just a crazy wild ars idea.... How about look at the original case files? Strange concept I know...
"near the cedar in 2 - 2,5 meters are broken off dry branches. The branches are broken off and on the cedar itself. Under the cedar in the pit found traces of the fire, as evidenced by half-burnt branches. Near the fire, a half-burnt sock and a cowboy shirt were found. In the shirt money - 8 rubles. Semi-burnt helmet of greenish color. North of the fire at a distance of one meter head to the west, legs to the east near the corpses lie in the number of two. Identified: Krivonischenko Yuri Alekseevich face up, wearing a shirt cowboy, torn pants. The head is thrown back, the eyes are closed, the mouth is closed, the lips are compressed, the right hand is thrown behind the head, the left arm is bent, the hand is raised above the chest. The right leg is extended, the left leg is slightly bent at the knees. The right leg is undressed, on the left is a torn brown sock identical to the detected half-burned near the fire."
See anything interesting Nigel??
John Wolfe
06-09-2017 03:44 (GMT)
WARNING !! that site I posted about electrical properties takes over your screen-view ---- you have to hold the pointer at the top of the screen and then pull down (tools?) (sorry) and click "off" the checked auto hide -- and then click "restore" in the same pull down.
don't know why they would do this -- does it do same to you ? There could be other stuff its doing so I suggest we boycott that site. --- also its listed under google groups so if anyone knows how to report it to google let me know.
John Wolfe
06-09-2017 03:35 (GMT)
Hi Nigel (and Anna) and others who are interested in the ball lightning thing: I don't want to eliminate that "electrical" theory on that web-page, as some of the observations about the electrical structure of surrounding hills and land might contribute to this BL; which no one really understands. WHAT THE HECK IS IT ? Could it be that the electrical properties of those hills is what creates the BL ? That they are a necessary condition ?
also, Nigel : I've posted that wiki on microwave burns twice (and noted yours) --- I was wondering if, given today's technology what the material of the tent might show -- I wonder what tests we have now that we didn't have in the 1950's -- for instance, could intense microwaves (or other electrical) cause a detectable chemical change in the cloth / dyes / ducking (the waterproofing) that we might look for; maybe with a gas chromatograph, or a mass spectrometer of some sort, including magnetic.
Loose-Cannon
06-09-2017 00:27 (GMT)
"The nice atmosphere and the constructive dialogue here are in abundance."
You can thank the arrogant narcissist assmonkey bottom dwelling cheeto-stained wife-beater wearing Mr. I-am-the-authority so don't have a differing opinion or I will conduct myself like a little titty-baby whiny-crybaby pissy-pants toddler.
Heck, the BL theory actually had 'some' credibility before John the Narcissist started ridiculing those who do not lick his toes while he googles fireballs. 99% of the BL discussion has been spent posting needless crap in a self indulging need to prove BL exist. We know it exists you asshat but unfortunately for you, its very existence does NOT in anyway prove jack squat in regards to what happened to the Dyatlov group. All I see here is a narrow-minded echo chamber with a few folks that utterly cannot think outside the box and consider ALL possibilities. Shame really... Perhaps I should start a 'real' forum on my hosted server split into numerous theory sections and completely ban arrogant twits who attempt to bully people out of free thought. Wouldn't be the first time. (thumbs up).
Anna Yordanova
05-09-2017 21:27 (GMT)
The nice atmosphere and the constructive dialogue here are in abundance.
Nigel Evans
05-09-2017 21:02 (GMT)
@KMM - autobiographical in the extreme?
KMM
05-09-2017 20:55 (GMT)
Here, I did it for you :
How Narcissists See Themselves
1. I love myself and I know you do, too; in fact, everyone does—I can’t imagine anyone that doesn’t.
2. I have no need to apologize. You, however, must understand, accept, and tolerate me no matter what I do or say.
3. I have few equals in this world, and so far, I have yet to meet one. I am the best (manager, businessman, lover, student, etc. . . .).
4. Most people don’t measure up. Without me to lead, others would flounder.
5. I appreciate that there are rules and obligations, but those apply mostly to you because I don’t have the time or the inclination to abide by them. Besides, rules are for the average person, and I am far above average.
6. I hope you appreciate all that I am and everything that I have achieved for you—because I am wonderful and faultless.
7. I do wish we could be equals, but we are not and never will be. I will remind you with unapologetic frequency that I am the smartest person in the room and how well I did in school, in business, as a parent, etc., and you must be grateful.
8. I may seem arrogant and haughty, and that’s OK with me—I just don’t want to be seen as being like you.
9. I expect you to be loyal to me at all times, no matter what I do; however, don’t expect me to be loyal to you in any way.
10. I will criticize you and I expect you to accept it, but if you criticize me, especially in public, I will come at you with rage. One more thing: I will never forget or forgive, and I will pay you back one way or another—because I am a “wound collector.”
11. I expect you to be interested in what I have achieved and in what I have to say. I, on the other hand am not at all interested in you or in what you have achieved, so don’t expect much curiosity or interest from me about your life. I just don’t care.
12. I am not manipulative; I just like to have things done my way, no matter how much it inconveniences others or how it makes them feel. I actually don’t care how others feel—feelings are for the weak.
13. I expect gratitude at all times, for even the smallest things I do. As for you, I expect you to do as I demand.
14. I only associate with the best people, and frankly, most of your friends don’t measure up.
15. If you would just do what I say and obey, things would be better.
Nigel Evans
05-09-2017 20:06 (GMT)
Hi John, ommiserations with the keyboard.
Just pointing out what i said back then :- "@Rol88 - coming back to you wrt the electrical burns in the tent and there being no sign of burning on the tent or it's contents. What if their injuries were not electrical burns but microwave burns? - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_burn This explains how they were injured in the tent without any burning elsewhere. The tent fabric would perhaps have got hot but not enough to discolour as it would take longer to heat up being colder and with a covering of snow, the damp cavities within the bamboo pole heated quickly and split it. Perhaps the radiation was only intense at one end of the tent as the BL passed near, just affecting the pole and two occupants who in effect shielded the others. Now you have your reason for cutting the tent open and getting everyone out as fast as possible."
Yes the mezoeletric stuff is interesting and the looo.ch site talks of anomolous terrain interfering with radar. Could all be true, but i think given the global reports of UFO activity that this phenomena or something similar can be induced solely by atmospheric effects.
KMM
05-09-2017 19:09 (GMT)
John Wolfe 05-09-2017 17:50 (GMT) I just googled my favorite term
........... "brainless trolls"
You should look up "Narcissism" and refusing to admit when you are wrong !
Holy FireBall KMM!!!! Were did you take this? Were you scared? Did it melt your face off? How many skulls did it bash in and concave? How many victims.... Please say 9!!
Wow, I wish John Pantywaist would show us what his favorite google search term for the day was........wait, never mind.
Do any of you know that the way your microwave oven works is largely by heating the water molecules in the food you are cooking/heating. With this in mind -- the microwave damage to skin should be minimal --- unless the skin is WET ! You know, like if you were outside, with exposed skin, in a snowstorm.
Human body is like 50-65% water. Don't you think it would show internal damage ?
John Wolfe
04-09-2017 20:24 (GMT)
that Loose Shorts guy is gonna hate me ...... here's some more thoughts on ........ BALL-LIGHTNING ! (what else) This is from Wikipedia. I've been trying to read about microwave injuries as I'm thinking about how BL might be formed (by a cavitation magnetron at the end of an ion streamer -- no, you don't know what it is, but here is what wiki mentioned in one case of microwave exposure -- 600W for about five seconds on hands and forearm) :
"On July 29, 1977, H.F., a 51-year-old teacher, was attempting to remove a casserole dish from her new 600-watt microwave oven. The oven signaled the end of the heating cycle, but the light and the cooking blower were on. During retrieval of the dish, she inserted two thirds of her bare forearms into the oven, for a total time of about five seconds. The oven was still operating. She felt "hot pulsating sensation" and burning in fingers and fingernails and a sensation of "needles" over the exposed areas. Jabbing pain, swelling, and RED-ORANGE DISCOLORATION of dorsal sides of both hands and forearms appeared shortly afterwards."
--- I don't know if this explains any of the discoloration seen in the 9 hikers --- but it might.
recall from my previous post -- that there was MELTED SNOW at the tent area for about 20 or 30 meters which turned the snow into ice --- ALSO --- searchers report that various small items of clothing were (blown from the tent area? and) locked into melted snow --- so tell me this --- how did this happen ? How did snow melt into water (and then re-freeze into ice -- in several large, many meters wide spherical patterns ) when it was night in a Siberian blizzard with high winds and snow falling and it was somewhere between minus 20 and minus 30 centigrade ? ... ON A MOUNTAIN SIDE ?
Do any of you know that the way your microwave oven works is largely by heating the water molecules in the food you are cooking/heating. With this in mind -- the microwave damage to skin should be minimal --- unless the skin is WET ! You know, like if you were outside, with exposed skin, in a snowstorm.
Loose-Cannon
04-09-2017 16:36 (GMT)
Protocol inspection Labasa
March 2, 1959 Camp search party in the Upper stream of the river. Auspii Prosecutor prosecutor of the Prosecutor's Office of the Sverdlovsk Region Ivanov, in the presence of the head of the search party, Comrade Maslennikov (Sverdlovsk, Zavodskaya Str. 32), and Slobtsov Boris Efimovich (Sverdlovsk, Lenin Str., 13a, apt. 23) with the 78th CPC pcfsr this protocol is as follows: On this day, in the upper reaches of the Auspii rivers, under the pass to the Lozvu River, a storage unit (food store) of the Dyatlov group was found. Labaz is located on the site of the group's overnight stay, it is well closed with cooked firewood, covered with cardboard, pine paws. At the store, skis are stuck in the snow, one pair, on the toe of the skis hang torn leggings.
Sheet 9 - 2 -
The following quantity of products was found during the excavation of the storage:
1. Condensed milk 2.5 kg. 2. Meat canned in cans 4 kg. 3. Sugar - 8 kg. 4. Butter - 4 kg. 5. Boiled sausages - 4 kg. 6. Salt - 1,5 kg. 7. Kissel-compote - 3 kg. 8. Oatmeal porridge and buckwheat 7.5 kg. 9. Cocoa 200 g . 10. Coffee - 200 g. 11. Tea - 200 g . 12. Koreake - 3 kg. 13. Milk powder - 1 kg. 14. Sugar sand - 3 kg. 15. Rusks - 7 kg and noodles - 5 kg. 16. In addition, it was found: a mandolin, a pair of shoes 41 size, and in them wearing socks, a pair of warm shoes, a set of fasteners, 2 batteries mounted with a light bulb for lighting.
Sheet 10 - 3 -
According to Blinov, warm boots belong to Dyatlov. Since the products are not of interest for the investigation, they were transferred to the head of the party, Comrade Maslennikov, as an emergency supply. All the containers from the foodstuffs, as well as the mandolin, 2 pairs of shoes, socks and bindings are withdrawn. The protocol is read, written correctly.
Protocol No. 1 of the identification of things Krivonischenko Inventory of things, Sverdlovsk, March 30, 1959 Prosecutor-criminalist of the Prosecutor's Office of the Sverdlovsk region, ml. counselor of justice Ivanov in the presence of witnesses Yudin Yuri Efimovich, student UPI, gr. I-480 and Khamova Galina Nikolaevna, UPI, gr. C-344, presented Krivonischenko Igor Alekseevich - the brother of Krivonischenko, the fugitive GA. personal equipment that is supposed to belong to G. Krivonischenko. Krivonischenko, after examining the equipment presented, said that his brother, Krivonischenko Georgiy, owned the following items: 1. The backpack is black, old, with long protective-colored belts sewn with black threads. 2. A hood made of blue staple satin. 3. Compass, string, badges "hiker" and "Second Sports category." 4. Mandolin in a white sac. 5. Gauntlets made of decorative fabric. 6. The balaclava is gray. 7. Fur stockings - 1 pair. 8. The blue shirt is burnt. 9. White white shirt, cowboy. 10. Suit-Storm and trousers. All of the above things Krivonischenko Igor Alex. Identified firmly. The protocol is recorded correctly. Signatures: 1. Kryvonischenko, 2. Khamov, 3. Yudin. Prosecutor-criminalist Ivanov (signature).
Sheet 234
Receipt
Me, Krivonischenko I.A. Items listed in this protocol are listed from No. 1 to No. 11. Signed: Krivoyshchenko. In addition, Krivonischenko I. identified and received an ax, a flask, winter three-fingered gloves. Signed by: Krivonischenko. In addition, Kivonischenko identified and received a blanket of old, red-brown, cloth, signature (Krivonischenko). In addition, Krivonischenko identified black felt boots, old ones, sewn with a thick layer of gray koshma. Valenki received on April 7, 1959 Signed (Krivonischenko).
Sheet 235
Protocol of identification of things No. 2, Sverdlovsk, March 30, 1959 Prosecutor criminalist of the Prosecutor's Office of the Sverdlovsk region, ml. Counselor of Justice Ivanov, this date in the presence of witnesses: Yudin Yuri Efimovich, I-480 and Khamova GN, gr. C-344 presented Blinov gr. F-5 personal equipment of dead hikers. Blinov Yu.A., after inspecting the equipment, said that IA Dyatlov. belongs to the iron stove. Doroshenko Yu.N. belongs (presumably) a new blue Vigonia sweater (Blinov knows that before leaving for the trek Doroshenko bought some sweater). Kolevatov A. belong: buckets in the amount of 2 pcs. The record is correct, the signatures are: 1, Blinov, 2. Khamov, 3. Yudin, Pr-r to Ivanov.
Sheet 236
Protocol of identification of things No. 3, Sverdlovsk, March 30, 1959. Prosecutor-criminalist of the Prosecutor's Office of the Sverdlovsk Region, ml. counselor of justice Ivanov, this day in the presence of witnesses: Yudin Yuri Efimovich, student of UPT, gr. I-480 and Hamova Galina Nikolaevna, UPI, gr. C-344, presented by Pyatnitskiy Pyatnitsky. - the sister of the deceased IA Dyatlov. Personal equipment, which is supposed to belong to IA Dyatlov. R.Dyatlova having examined the presented equipment, has declared, that its brother - Igor Dyatlov belong the following things: 1. Fur sleeveless, 2. Jacket leather fur. 3. Svitre blue, paper. 4. Mitten black suede. 5. Boots are black, cloth. 6. Compass, glasses with a case, a knife. 7. Panties are black. 8. Winter cap knitted, woolen, 9. Storm. 10. Cowboy. 11. Sharovars, - brown and green. 12. The shirt is blue. All of the above items Dyatlov RA. identified firmly. Signatures: 1.Dyatlova, 2. Khamov, 3.Yudin. Prosecutor-criminalist Ivanov (signature).
Sheet 237
Receipt. By me, Dyatlova R.A. things listed in this protocol are things from 1 to 12 and the stove specified in protocol No. 2. Signed by: Dyatlova. G. Pervouralsk, Sadovaya, 13, Alexey Alexandrovich Dyatlov. (postscript)
Sheet 238
Protocol of identification of things No. 4, Sverdlovsk, March 30. Prosecutor-criminalist of the prosecutor's office of the Sverdlovsk region, ml. counselor of justice Ivanov, this day in the presence of witnesses: Yudin Yuri Efimovich, student of UPT, gr. I-480 and Hamova Galina Nikolaevna, UPI, gr. C-344, showed Radosteva Galina Grigorievna - student gr. P-462 personal equipment, which is supposed to belong to Kolmogoroy Zina. Радостева, having examined the presented equipment, has curtailed, that Kolmogorova belong the following things: 1. The blouse is woolly variegated. 2. Handkerchief with a hem. 3. Scarf is red woolen. 4. Mittens are blue woolen. 5. Cowboy. 6. T-shirt with a fur collar, with a hood. 7. Storm, canvas. Green. Personal. 8. Black wool socks. 9. Blanket blue from 10 stud. Shells. 10. The gloves are black. Wrapped in green canvas, white socks trimmed with the same. 11. Svitre blue, woolen. 12. Trousers for skiing. 13. Caps red woolen and blue. 14. The cowards are gray. 15. Brown socks are tartan. 16. The trousers are black. 17. Panties are blue, warm.
Sheet 239
All of the above things Radostev recognized firmly. The record is correct, the signatures: 1, Blinov, 2. Khamov, 3. Yudin, Prosecutor criminologist Ivanov. Receipt by me, Radosteva GG, items listed in this protocol are listed from No. 1 to No. 17 and in the report of inspection of things No. 6 (from No. 1 to No. 4). Signed: Радостева-6 апр. 1959
Sheet 240
Protocol of identification of things № 5, Sverdlovsk, March 30. Prosecutor-criminalist of the Prosecutor's Office of the Sverdlovsk Region, ml. counselor of justice Ivanov, this day in the presence of witnesses: Yudin Yuri Efimovich, student of UPT, gr. I-480 and Hamova Galina Nikolaevna, UPI, gr. C-344, showed Kostrulin Viktor Nikolaevich, Student UPI, gr. R-463 personal equipment Doroshenko Yu.N., which is supposed to belong Doroshenko. Kostrulin VN, after examining the equipment, announced that his friend Doroshenko Yu.N. belong the following things: 1. The trolley is blue. 2. Shaped lamb, which was taken from Kostrulina. 3. Fur sleeveless, which was taken from Gainutdinov Farid, gr. P-463. 4. Fusions blue satin. 5.Noski simple brown. 6. The tank top is green. 7. Cowboy in a large cage "Bulgaria ..." (illegible). 8. Wool knitted socks. 9. Scarf is brown. 10. Blanket woolen, brown, which was taken from 10 stud. Shells. 11. Panties satin blue. 12.Sharovary blue, knitted. 13. Socks. All of the above items Kostrulin VN. identified firmly. Signatures: Kostrulina, Hamova, Yudin and Ivanov.
Sheet 241
The protocol is recorded correctly. Signatures of the Receipt: By me, Kostrulin V.N. received items listed in this protocol, No. 2 and 3. Signature Kostrulina. Receipt Me Shulyatevym Vasiliem Andrianovichem obtained listed in this protocol things under № 1, №№ 4, 5, 6, 7,8, 9, 11, 13, 12 and referred to in the protocol № 2 blue sweater to send their enclosure in Aktyubinsk, in the name of Doroshenko Volodya, brother of Yura Doroshenko. Signature: Шуляев. April 9, 1959
Sheet 242
Protocol of identification of things No. 6, Sverdlovsk, March 31, 1959 Prosecutor-criminalist of the Prosecutor's Office of the Sverdlovsk Region, counselor of justice Ivanov, this day in the presence of witnesses: Yudin Yuri Efimovich, student of UPT, gr. I-480 and Hamova Galina Nikolaevna, UPI, gr. C-344, presented Margarita Alexandrovna Mitrofanova - a friend of Kolmogorova's personal equipment for the trek of Z. Kolmogorova who died. Mitrofanova MA, having examined the equipment, firmly stated that Z. Kolmogorova belonged to: 1. Black trousers-tights black 2. Bathing suit black. 3. Cases for mittens blue with an elastic band in the number of 2 pcs. (crossed out word "mittens" is omitted) 4. T-shirt blue knitted.
Sheet 243
Prosecutor-criminalist of the Prosecutor's Office of the Sverdlovsk Region, ml. counselor of justice Ivanov, this day in the presence of witnesses: Yudin Yuri Efimovich, student of UPT, gr. I-480 and Hamova Galina Nikolaevna, UPI, gr. C-344, presented the parents of Slobodin Rustik with personal equipment, which is supposed to belong to Slobodin's bastard R. Samsnova Nadezhda Feodorovna, having examined the equipment presented, she stated that her son owned the following things: 1. Binoculars. 2. The ax. 3. Satin wide trousers. 4 pairs of sock, gray and brown. 5. 2 balaclavors. 6. Towel. 7. Phonemic. 8. One felt boots. 9. The telogram. 10. The blanket is brown, cloth. All of the above things are Samsonov NF. identified firmly. The protocol is recorded correctly. Signatures: 1. Yudin, 2. Khamov, 3. Slobodin-Samsonov. The things listed in this protocol from №1 to №10 have received: N.Samsonova (signature). 7.04.59. Ivanov (signature)
Sheet 244
Prosecutor-criminalist of the Prosecutor's Office of the Sverdlovsk Region, ml. counselor of justice Ivanov, this day in the presence of witnesses: Yudin Yuri Efimovich, student of UPT, gr. I-480 and Hamova Galina Nikolaevna, UPI, gr. C-344, presented to Khalizov Vyacheslav Ivanovich, a student of the city. P-559 personal equipment, which is supposed to belong to the dead Thibaut Nicholas. Khalizov, having examined the equipment presented, stated that Thibaut belong to the following things: 1. A two-handed saw, Tybo was taken from someone. Khalizov also said that Doroshenko owns the mitten-fur coat, which Doroshenko took before leaving Khalizov. All of the above items Khalizov VI. identified firmly. The protocol is recorded correctly. Signatures: 1. Khalizov, 2. Khamov, 3. Yudin Receipt By me, VI Khalizov. got mittens, which I gave Doroshenko Yu. Signature: Khalizov.
Sheet 245
Protocol of identification of things No. 8, Sverdlovsk, April 1, 1959 Prosecutor-criminalist of the Prosecutor's Office of the Sverdlovsk Region, ml. counselor of justice Ivanov, this day in the presence of witnesses: Yudin Yuri Efimovich, student of UPT, gr. I-480 and Hamova Galina Nikolaevna, UPI, gr. C-344, showed Kortev, NV, UPI, gr ... personal equipment of the dead hikers. Kortev NV, having examined the equipment, stated that Dyatlov belonged to: 1. A blanket of red cloth from 10 studios of the UPI building. 2. Mug of green enamel. The protocol is recorded correctly. Signatures: 1. Kortev, 2. Khamov, 3. Yudin. Protocol-criminalist Ivanov (signature).
Sheet 246
Protocol of identification of things No. 9, Sverdlovsk, April 1, 1959 Prosecutor-criminalist of the Prosecutor's Office of the Sverdlovsk Region, ml. counselor of justice Ivanov, this day in the presence of witnesses: Yudin Yuri Efimovich, student of UPT, gr. I-480 and Hamova Galina Nikolaevna, UPI, gr. C-344, showed Dubinina Ie Vladimirovna - the mother of the deceased Luda Dubinina personal equipment, which is supposed to belong to L. Dubinina. Dubinin, having examined the equipment presented, stated that her daughter owned the following things: 1. Blanket blue woolen 2. Handkerchief 3. Socks 2 pairs of brown, woolen. 4. Trunks knitted. 5. The helmet is white woolen. 6. The mug is green. 7. Hedgehog and rubber bear, which Luda bought before the departure as a birthday gift to someone. 8. Boots black new. 9. Tooth. Brush, soap dish. 10. Bear in the evil. Pants and brown shirt personally Ludin. 11. Thirteen sacks of food that Luda was preparing before leaving. 12. Sports cap, white. 13. Woolen white scarf, narrow. All of the above items Dubinin I.V. identified firmly. Signatures: 1. Dubinina, 2. Yudin, 3. Khamov, pr-r cr-t Ivanov.
Sheet 247 Receipt by Me, Dubinoy I.V. received the things listed in this protocol from No. 1 to 13. Signature In addition (these are listed 13 things), Iya Vladimirovna Dubinina identified a green backpack, which is also handed along with these things. Signature: Dubinina., 6.04.59.
Sheet 248
Protocol of identification of things No. 9, Sverdlovsk, April 3, 1959. Prosecutor-criminalist of the Prosecutor's Office of the Sverdlovsk Region, ml. counselor of justice Ivanov, this day in the presence of witnesses: Yudin Yuri Efimovich, student of UPT, gr. I-480 and Hamova Galina Nikolaevna, UPI, gr. C-344, presented Belyasov Alexander Danilovich, the mechanization management technique No. 1, who lived in the same room in the hostel with Thibault Brignol Coley, personal equipment, which is supposed to belong to N. Tibo. Belyasov said that Thibault N. owned the following things: 1. Svitre brown woolen, new. 2. Glasses in a green case. 3. Flashlight "Artel Saunobut Chernovitsy" (taken from Kruglyakov, a neighbor in the hostel). The inscription "round flask" is crossed out. 4. Mug is aluminum and a spoon. 5. Storm. 6. Cowboy in a large red cage. 7. Old felt hat, black. 8. The ax is large, with a tottering beak. 9. The soap dish is yellow. 10. Backpack green old Belyasov saw in Tibo house, but whose he does not know. 11. Thibaut departed in gray boots, which are not. - The inscription is crossed out. 12. The baby boogie is made of cotton. - The inscription is crossed out. 11. The saw, taken from the master in the instrumental
Sheet 249
Belyasov asserts that Thibaut N. took lychees with him, but here it is not. Among the presented things, one quilted jacket is like a quilted Teabo quilted jacket, but it is small and burnt. In addition, Thibaut took with him gray felt boots new, cotton trousers and a fur hare white color, which are also not here. Nothing can be said about the blanket (Aunt Thibaut N. knows about this). The protocol is recorded correctly. Signatures: 1. Khamova, 2, Yudin, 3. Belyasov. Prosecutor Ivanov (signature).
Sheet 250
Protocol of identification of things No. 11, Sverdovsk, April 4, 1959 Prosecutor-criminalist of the Prosecutor's Office of the Sverdlovsk Region, ml. counselor of justice Ivanov, this day in the presence of witnesses: Yudin Yuri Efimovich, student UPI, gr. I-480 and Hamova Galina Nikolaevna, UPI, gr. C-344, presented Kolevatova Rimma Sergeevna, the sister of the deceased Alexander Kolevatov, personal equipment, which is supposedly owned by Kolevatov. Колеватова, having examined the presented equipment has declared, that Колеватову belong the following things:
Sheet 251
1. Comb, screwdriver, pliers. 2. Storm suit: a jacket and pants of a dark green color. 3. Fur hat. 4. The flask is round. 5. Buckets 2 pieces. 6. Bar for the point of knives. 7. Mug is green, spoon. 8. Flashlight simple artel ud. (two words are crossed out) "MENAL (fuzzy) No. 3". Moscow. 9. Black teapot . 10. Boots , taken from Sasha Bagautdinov, Faculty 4, are sewn on the train. 11. Mittens are white, knitted. 12. Woolen socks, brown. 13. The balaclava is gray, woolen. The protocol is recorded correctly. Further crossed out text: Kolevatova RS having inspected the presented things, declared that her brother owned (the end of the crossed out text. All of the above items are Kolevatova RS identified firmly. Signatures: 1. Khamova, 2. Kolevatova, 3. Yudin. Dr. Ivanov (signature).
Sheet 252
The protocol of identification of things from April 6, 1959 No. 12 Prosecutor-criminalist of the Prosecutor's Office of the Sverdlovsk region, ml. counselor of justice Ivanov, this day in the presence of witnesses: Yudin Yuri Efimovich, student UPI, gr. I-480 and Hamova Galina Nikolaevna, UPI, gr. C-344, presented Muzafarova Elizaveta Iosifovna, the aunt of the deceased Nikolai Thibaut, personal equipment, which as assumed belongs to Thibaut. Muzafarova EI, after examining the equipment presented, stated that N. Thibault owned the following things:
Sheet 253
1. The hat is black, old. 2. The blanket is black with a patch. 3. Svitre is brown. 4. Glasses in a green case. 5. The backpack is green, old, personal. 6. The mug is green. 7. Storm. 8. Cowboy in a large red cage. 9. The ax is large with a loose beard. 10. Socks red woolen and brown, nasal scarves with a green edge, 3 pieces. 11. Mittens are brown woolen and leather black. 12. A box of tea with a compass, etc. 13. Penknife's knife is broken. 14. Box of candy with a shaving device. 15. Two-handed saw. 16. Socks simple 10 pairs. All listed things are identified firmly.
Sheet 254
Receipt. By me, Yudin Yu.E. obtained belongings to me things: 1. Blanched green from the 8 th student's class. 2. Gauntlets-fur coats sheathed in black. 3. A sportive blue cap. 4. First-aid kit, bowler, mask. 5. Fur sleeveless jacket trimmed in blue. Signature Yudin, April 7, 1959.
Sheet 255
My receipt, Kuznetsov Nikolai Filippovich, the head of the warehouse of the sports base received the equipment of the dead hikers, belonging to the sports club of the UPI. 1. Backpacks: Dyatlov, Tibo (crossed out), Doroshenko, Slobodin, Kolmogorova, Zolotarev, Kolevatov - 7 pieces (crossed out, all surnames are recorded "in column" 2. Ski boots Dyatlov, Tibo, Doroshenko, Slobodin, Dubinina, Kolmogorova, Zolotarev, Kolevatov 8 pairs. (surname - in the "column" 3 Ice ax one. 4 gaiters 15 pieces 5. Storm suits 6. Storm jackets 7. cookware one 8. Ski trousers one black 9.Switter half woolen, black 10. Painting (fuzzy)
Sheet 256
G. Sverdlovsk, April 8, 1959 I received a receipt, Bagautdinov AI, student of UPI, gr. F-453, boots were received, which I gave Kolevatov in the trek. Signed: Bagautdinov (signature) 8.04.-59.
Sheet 257
G. Sverdlovsk (March 31, 7 - crossed out) Prosecutor criminalist of the Prosecutor's Office of Sverdlovsk region, Junior Counselor of Justice Ivanov this day in the presence of witnesses Yudin Yuri Efimovich, student UPI gr. I-480 and Hamova Galina Nikolaevna, gr. C-344 completed the identification of things and found that they remained unidentified: 1. Masks from the wind 7 pieces. 2. Cowboy in a small cage is red with blue. 3. A case with glasses, with a cracked right glass. 4. T-shirt pink knitted with lengths. Sleeves. 5. Headbands gray 2 pieces. 6. A small iron top in a leather case. 7. Sneakers homemade in a green cage. 8. 2 toothbrushes: simple and in a case. 9. Scissors are small. 10. Woolen socks old 9 pieces. 11. Wax socks 6 pieces. 12. Simple socks 7 pieces. 13. Gray cloth woolcloths 2 pcs. and brown flannel 1 pc. 14. Gauntlets of 12 pieces. 15. Bags of food for 4 pieces. Signatures: 1 Khamova (signature) 2 3 Yudin (signature) Prosecutor criminalist Ivanov (signature)
Nigel Evans
04-09-2017 15:14 (GMT)
Actually he is a she... How do you know yours is the better version?
Loose-Cannon
04-09-2017 15:06 (GMT)
Similar isn't the same. The author also added in his own BS to a freaking autopsy report!! Unbelievable
Nigel Evans
04-09-2017 15:02 (GMT)
Looks similar to me, they are two different translations, what's your point?
Loose-Cannon
04-09-2017 14:56 (GMT)
Wow... Incomplete and an utter omission of information, and altered!
Compare the last section of my post
Nigel Evans
04-09-2017 14:36 (GMT)
Doroshenko Yuri Alekseevich, 21 years old On the March 4, 1959 in accordance with March 4, 1959 in accordance with decree of the Prosecutor office of Sverdlovsk region of March 3, 1959 by forensic experts of the regional forensic investigation bureau Mr. V.A. VOZROZHDENNIY and Mr. Yu.I. LAPTEV in the presence of the prosecutor of Sverdlovsk region state Counselor in Justice of III class Mr. N.I. KLINOV, criminal prosecutor of regional prosecutor office junior Counselor in Justice Mr. L.N. IVANOV and witnesses S.D. GORDO and K.V. NASKICHEV in the morgue of the central department hospital, PO Box No.240 with daylight and sunny weather there was performed the autopsy of the corpse of Mr. Y.A. Doroshenko, 21 years old, in order to determine the cause of death and answers to the questions given in the declaration. Case circumstances On January 23, 1959 the independent group of hikers consisting of 10 persons went across the ski track Ivdel – Mount Otorten. From the 2nd Severny site the group consisted of 9 persons. On February 1, 1959 the group started the climb on the mount Otorten and in the evening they put up a tent at the height of 1 079 meters. In the night of February 2 at the unknown circumstances all 9 persons died. А) External examination The body under examination is a male corpse of regular build. The body position is as follows: the upper limbs are drawn up at the shoulder joints towards the head and are bent at the elbow joints. The finger joints are also bent. The lower limbs are stretched. The head is turned to the left. The body was found with the following clothes on it: a short-sleeved blue and red chequered cowboy shirt with two two-button patch pockets and with all six buttons buttoned up, a sleeveless light-green knitted vest, blue sateen pants and briefs, and blue knitted long underwear with two buttons buttoned up. In the middle third of the thigh, on the inner thigh to the left and on the front thigh to the right the long underwear is torn: there is a 22 x 23 cm fabric tear on the right and another 13 x 13 cm fabric tear on the left. On the left foot, there are two pairs of light-brown knitted socks torn in the back of the foot and in the ankle joint and a white woollen sock with a reinforced heel; on a white sock there is a 2 x 5 cm dark-brown burnt area in the forefoot around the toe. On the right foot, there are the remains of the cotton sock with an elastic band. This sock is the same colour as the one on the left foot. There is also a white woollen sock. On the inside of the pants, there is an identification tag reading 5П1513. The length of the body is 180 cm. The body has a good nutritional status and well-developed muscle groups. Crimson purple post-mortem stains are located on the back of the neck, torso and limbs. Rigor mortis has resolved in the muscle groups of the joints. There is dark 6-cm-long chestnut hair on the head, cut in a crew-cut style. In the temporoparietal and occipital zones, there is an area where the ends of the hair are burnt. The hair is dirty with moss remains and fir needles. The skin of the face is brown-purple. The contour of the face is smoothed. The eyebrows are dark chestnut and thick. The eyes are closed, the corneas are cloudy, the irises are brown, the pupils are enlarged, and the eyelid mucosa is pale pink. The nasal ridge is straight. Around the nasal ridge, the nasal tip and the upper lip, there are clotted blood traces. The upper lip is swollen. Around the vermilion border of the upper lip, there is a 1.5 x 2 cm dark red haemorrhage. The mouth is slightly opened. The teeth are white and even. The mucous membrane of the gums and the vestibule of the mouth is pale red. The tongue is in the oral cavity behind the teeth. Around the right cheek, the soft tissue is covered with a layer of foamy grey fluid. Grey fluid traces are also visible around the opening of the mouth. The auricles are oval in shape and bluish red in colour. Around the tragus and the lobule of the right auricle, there is a 6 x 1.5 cm thick brown red area. On the left auricle around the tragus, there is a similar 4 x 1 cm brown red parchment-like area. The auricles are bright red from the inside. ??? ??? without any distinctive features. On the inner arms and forearms of both upper limbs, the venous pattern is well-defined. Soft tissues of the upper limbs are bluish red. On the inner right arm, in the middle third, there are two 2 x 1.5 cm irregular-shaped brown red parchment-like abrasions without haemorrhages in the adjacent tissue. In the area of these abrasions, two linear incisions are made. By the anterior margin of the right axillary line, there is a 2 x 1.5 cm dark red skin abrasion area. On the front of the right arm, there are small brown red scab-like abrasions without haemorrhages in the adjacent tissues. In the upper third of the right forearm, there are 4 (?) x 1-, 2.5 x 1.5 and 5 x 0.5 cm stripe-shaped brown red abrasions. There are also small abrasions in the lower third of the right forearm. On the back (?) of the right hand, there is swelling of the soft tissue and small abrasions. On the back of the hand, specifically on the second metacarpal bone, there is a 2 x 1.5 cm brown-red abrasion with haemorrhaging into the adjacent tissue. The soft tissue of the hand and fingers, especially the distal phalanges, are dark purple. On the inner left arm, in the lower third, there are 3 x 0.5 , 1.5 x 0.7 and 1 x 1.5 cm brown red abrasions. On the sides of the left elbow joint, there are small brown-red grazes as well as 2 x 3 cm abrasions of the same colour with the parallel stripe-shaped sliding traces. On the inner left forearm, between the middle third and the lower third, there is a 0.6 x 0.5 cm irregular-shaped oval skin wound. The edges of the wound are slightly pressed down and covered with clotted blood. An incision was made around this wound, and haemorrhaging in the adjacent soft tissues was found. The soft tissue in the back of the left hand is slightly swollen and brown-red in colour. The distal phalanges of the fingers are dark purple. The thoracic cage is cylindrical in shape. The abdomen is located slightly lower than the thoracic cage. In the iliac area, there is an 8 cm linear whitish scar. The external genital organs are properly formed. In the area of the glans penis and foreskin, the soft tissue is bright red. The openings of the anus and urethra are clean. The muscle groups of the lower limbs are well-developed. On the back and inner thighs and shins, the venous pattern is well-defined. On the front shins, in the middle third, there are pale red parchment-like abrasions – 8 x 4 cm on the left shin and 5 x 1.5 cm on the right shin. The soft tissue in the distal phalanges of the toes is dark purple. Examination by touch shows that the skeleton bones and cartilages are intact. B) Internal Organs Examination The skin flaps of the scalp are moist, rich, glossy, and pale red from the inside. The skullcap and skull base bones are intact. The dura mater is bluish and hyperaemic. The pia mater is opaque and swollen. Convolutions and fissures of the brain are smoothed out and flattened. The brain matter is a greenish red jelly-like substance. The grey matter can hardly be distinguished from the white matter. Brain ventricle contours are indistinguishable. The cerebellum matter pattern is poorly distinguished. The base of the brain vessels is regular. The subcutaneous fat of the body is well-developed. The position of the internal organs is normal. The pleural cavities are empty. The pericardium contained about 40 cm3 of amber fluid. The size of the heart is 13 x10 x 6 cm. The cardiac muscle is dark red when sectioned. The left ventricle muscle is 2 cm thick, while the right ventricle muscle is 0.7 cm thick... The lungs are bluish red on the outside and dough-like to the touch. The lung tissue when sectioned is dark red... The liver is smooth and glossy on the outside. The size of the liver is 27 x 17 x 12 x 10 cm. The liver tissue when sectioned is cherry brown and hyperaemic. The liver tissue pattern is poorly distinguished... The bladder contained about 150 cm3 of cloudy light yellow fluid. Some organs from the body under examination have been taken for chemical and histological testing to the Regional Laboratory... Conclusion According to the examination results of the body belonging to D-ko Yuri Nikolayevich, aged 21, and considering the circumstances of the case, we believe that the death occurred as the result of low temperature exposure (freezing), which can be proved by the following evidence: meninges oedema, strong hyperaemia in the internal organs, cardiac cavities full of liquid dark blood, petechiae in the gastric mucosa (known as Wischnewsky spots), an excessively full bladder, along with the third and fourth degree frostbite of fingers and toes. External examination showed damage, such as multiple abrasions and skin wounds caused by a blunt object that could occur as the result of falling or bruising against stones, ice, and other objects. The injuries mentioned above occurred while alive, during the agonal state, and after death. The injuries mentioned above can be described as slight injuries without damage to health. This examination of the body gives reasons to state that the last meal was consumed 6 to 8 hours before death. Alcohol was not found during the tests. The death is violent and accidental. Signed: Forensic Medical Examiner, Regional Forensic Medical Examination Office
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (p. 215). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
Loose-Cannon
04-09-2017 14:26 (GMT)
Ok.... Autopsy reports. Do they look like this?
Sheet 104 ACT # 2 FORENSIC-MEDICAL RESEARCH OF THE BODY OF DOROSHENKO Yury Nikolaevich, 21 years old
March 4, 1959 according to the decision of the Prosecutor's Office of the Sverdlovsk region of March 3, 1959 Forensic experts of the Regional Bureau of Forensic Medical Examination of the Sverdlovsk Region VOZROZHDENNIY B.A. and Laptev II. in the presence of the state counselor of justice of the third class Klinov NI, the criminal prosecutor Ivan IVANOV LI, and understandable com. GORDO S.D. and NASKICHEV K.V. in the morgue room of the central hospital of the office Box No. H-240 under daylight and sunny weather, a corpse of citizen DOROSHENKO Yury Nikolaevich was examined on the 21st year, to determine the cause of death and answer the questions indicated in the resolution.
The circumstances of the case
January 23, 1959 an amateur group of hikers consisting of 10 people went on a ski trip on the route Ivdel - Mount Otorten. From the site of the 2 nd North in the ski trip went 9 people. On February 1, 1959 the group began the ascent to Mount Oorten and in the evening broke the tent near the height of 1079. On the night of February 2, under unclear circumstances, all 9 people died.
Sheet 105 - 2 - a / external inspection :
The corpse of a man, the right body; posture of the corpse: upper limbs are withdrawn in the shoulder joints upwards towards the head, in a bent position in the elbow joints, and also in the area of ??the finger joints. The lower extremities are elongated. The head is turned to the left. Clothes on the corpse: a spatula with a short sleeve blue in a red cage, with two patch pockets for 2 buttons, a cowboy buttoned to all six buttons. T-shirt sleeveless - knitted, salad color, panties and melting satin blue, knitted blue pants buttoned on two buttons. In the middle third of the thigh on the inner surface on the left, and on the right on the front surface there are rips of pants, measuring 22 x 33 cm on the right and 13 x 13 cm on the left. On the left leg are two pairs of knitted light brown socks, with rips in the area of ??the rear of the foot and ankle joint; woolen socks are white, with a heel trimmed, in the area of ??the forefoot on the toe, there is a burnt patch measuring 2 x 5 cm in dark brown color. On the right leg, the remnants of a cotton sock with an elastic band are the same color as the one on the left. Wool white socks. On the inner surface of the panties there is a marking label with the inscription STS1313. The length of the corpse is 180 cm., Good nutrition, with well developed muscular groups; cadaveric spots of purple-colored color are located on the posterior surface of the neck of the trunk and extremities. Burial stiffness spread in the muscle groups of the joints; on the head dark-haired hair up to 6 cm long is trimmed under the "half-box". In the right temporo-parietal and occipital region there is a section of burning ends of hair, the hair is stained with remains of moss and needles of coniferous trees, the skin of the face is brownish-colored, the contours of the face are smoothed. Eyebrows dense dark-haired, eyes closed, cornea cloudy, irises
Sheet 106
- 3 -
brown, pupils dilated, mucous eyelid pale pink. The back of the nose is straight. In the region of the back of the nose, the tip of the nose and the upper lip, there are traces of discharge of gore. Upper lip swelling, in the red portion of the upper lip hemorrhage dark red measuring 1.5 x 2 cm. Lips parted s, the teeth are even white, the mucous gums and the vestibule of the mouth are pale red, the tongue in the mouth is behind the teeth. In the area of ??the right cheek soft tissues are covered with a layer of frothy gray liquid, from the mouth of the mouth there are traces of discharge of liquid of gray color. Ear shells of oval form of bluish-red color, in the area of ??tragus and lobes of right shell, dense sections of brownish color 6 x 1.6 cm in size, on the left auricle in the tragus area a section of the same color measuring 4 x 1 cm in parchment density, ears with inner surface of bright red color. Neck xxxx without features. In the area of ??the inner surface of the shoulders and forearms of both extremities, the venous pattern is well pronounced. Soft tissues of the upper extremities are cyanotic-reddish, on the inner surface of the right shoulder in the middle third are two abrasions measuring 2 x 1.5 cm. brown color of parchment density of irregular shape, without hemorrhages in the underlying tissues. In the area of ??these abrasions two cuts of linear are made. At the anterior margin of the right axillary line, the site of dark red coloration is 2 x 1.5 cm in size. On the front surface of the right shoulder, small bruise-colored abrasions in the form of strips measuring 4 x 1 cm, 2.5 x 1.5 cm and 5 x 0.5 cm and minor abrasions in the lower third of the right forearm. In the area of ??the rear of the right hand, soft tissue swelling and small abrasions. At the rear of the hand, respectively, the second metacarpal bone is an abrasion 2 x 1.5 cm in size, brownish-colored with hemorrhages in the underlying soft tissues. Soft brush fabrics At the anterior margin of the right axillary line, the site of dark red coloration is 2 x 1.5 cm in size. On the front surface of the right shoulder, small bruise-colored abrasions in the form of strips measuring 4 x 1 cm, 2.5 x 1.5 cm and 5 x 0.5 cm and minor abrasions in the lower third of the right forearm. In the area of ??the rear of the right hand, soft tissue swelling and small abrasions. At the rear of the hand, respectively, the second metacarpal bone is an abrasion 2 x 1.5 cm in size, brownish-colored with hemorrhages in the underlying soft tissues. Soft brush fabrics At the anterior margin of the right axillary line, the site of dark red coloration is 2 x 1.5 cm in size. On the front surface of the right shoulder, small bruise-colored abrasions in the form of strips measuring 4 x 1 cm, 2.5 x 1.5 cm and 5 x 0.5 cm and minor abrasions in the lower third of the right forearm. In the area of ??the rear of the right hand, soft tissue swelling and small abrasions. At the rear of the hand, respectively, the second metacarpal bone is an abrasion 2 x 1.5 cm in size, brownish-colored with hemorrhages in the underlying soft tissues. Soft brush fabrics In the area of ??the rear of the right hand, soft tissue swelling and small abrasions. At the rear of the hand, respectively, the second metacarpal bone is an abrasion 2 x 1.5 cm in size, brownish-colored with hemorrhages in the underlying soft tissues. Soft brush fabrics In the area of ??the rear of the right hand, soft tissue swelling and small abrasions. At the rear of the hand, respectively, the second metacarpal bone is an abrasion 2 x 1.5 cm in size, brownish-colored with hemorrhages in the underlying soft tissues. Soft brush fabrics
Sheet 107 - 4 - and the fingers of the hands are especially terminal phalanges of dark-colored color. On the inner surface of the left shoulder in the lower third of the bruise-colored grazes are 3 x 0.5, 1.5 x 0.7 and 1 x 1.5. On the lateral surfaces of the left elbow joint, small abrasions of brown color of parchment density and abrasions of the same color 2 x 3 cm in size with traces of slipping in the form of bands parallel to each other. On the inner surface of the left forearm, at the border of the middle third and lower third, the skin wound is of an irregular oval shape measuring 0.6 x 0.5 cm, its edges are slightly bent and covered with gore, under the wound, traces of gore. A cut was made in the area of ??this wound, where a hemorrhage in the underlying soft tissues was detected. Soft tissues in the area of ??the rear of the left hand are slightly swollen reddish-colored. End phalanx of fingers of hands of dark-colored color. The thorax is cylindrical, the abdomen is located somewhat below the level of the thorax. In the right iliac region, the dermal color of the whitish color of the linear shape is 8 cm in size. The external genital organs are developed correctly, in the region of the foreskin and glans penis of bright red color. The aperture of the anus and the urethra are clean. Muscular groups of the lower extremities are well developed. The posterior-internal surface of the hips and shins is well defined venous pattern. On the anterior surface of both shins in the middle third, the skin of the pale red color is of parchment density of 8 x 4 cm on the left, and 5 x 1.5 cm on the right shin. Soft tissues in the area of ??the end phalanx of the toes of the foot are dark-colored. The bones and cartilage of the skeleton are intact when tested. The stomach is located somewhat below the level of the chest. In the right iliac region, the dermal color of the whitish color of the linear shape is 8 cm in size. The external genital organs are developed correctly, in the region of the foreskin and glans penis of bright red color. The aperture of the anus and the urethra are clean. Muscular groups of the lower extremities are well developed. The posterior-internal surface of the hips and shins is well defined venous pattern. On the anterior surface of both shins in the middle third, the skin of the pale red color is of parchment density of 8 x 4 cm on the left, and 5 x 1.5 cm on the right shin. Soft tissues in the area of ??the end phalanx of the toes of the foot are dark-colored. The bones and cartilage of the skeleton are intact when tested. The stomach is located somewhat below the level of the chest. In the right iliac region, the dermal color of the whitish color of the linear shape is 8 cm in size. The external genital organs are developed correctly, in the region of the foreskin and glans penis of bright red color. The aperture of the anus and the urethra are clean. Muscular groups of the lower extremities are well developed. The posterior-internal surface of the hips and shins is well defined venous pattern. On the anterior surface of both shins in the middle third, the skin of the pale red color is of parchment density of 8 x 4 cm on the left and 5 x 1.5 cm on the right shin. Soft tissues in the area of ??the end phalanx of the toes of the foot are dark-colored. The bones and cartilage of the skeleton are intact when tested. The external genitalia are developed correctly, in the area of ??the foreskin and glans penis of bright red color. The aperture of the anus and the urethra are clean. Muscular groups of the lower extremities are well developed. The posterior-internal surface of the hips and shins is well defined venous pattern. On the anterior surface of both shins in the middle third, the skin of the pale red color is of parchment density of 8 x 4 cm on the left and 5 x 1.5 cm on the right shin. Soft tissues in the area of ??the end phalanx of the toes of the foot are dark-colored. The bones and cartilage of the skeleton are intact when tested. The external genitalia are developed correctly, in the area of ??the foreskin and glans penis of bright red color. The aperture of the anus and the urethra are clean. Muscular groups of the lower extremities are well developed. The posterior-internal surface of the hips and shins is well expressed venous pattern. On the anterior surface of both shins in the middle third, the skin of the pale red color is of parchment density of 8 x 4 cm on the left, and 5 x 1.5 cm on the right shin. Soft tissues in the area of ??the end phalanx of the toes of the foot are dark-colored. The bones and cartilage of the skeleton are intact when tested. The posterior-internal surface of the hips and shins is well expressed venous pattern. On the anterior surface of both shins in the middle third, the skin of the pale red color is of parchment density of 8 x 4 cm on the left and 5 x 1.5 cm on the right shin. Soft tissues in the area of ??the end phalanx of the toes of the foot are dark-colored. The bones and cartilage of the skeleton are intact when tested. The posterior-internal surface of the hips and shins is well expressed venous pattern. On the anterior surface of both shins in the middle third, the skin of the pale red color is of parchment density of 8 x 4 cm on the left and 5 x 1.5 cm on the right shin. Soft tissues in the area of ??the end phalanx of the toes of the foot are dark-colored. The bones and cartilage of the skeleton are intact when tested.
Sheet 108
- 5 -
B / Internal Research
Skin flaps of the scalp with internal dampness wet, juicy, shiny, pale red. The bones of the arch and the base of the skull are intact, the dura mater is cyanotic, full-blooded, the soft dura mater is turbid, swollen. The gyrus and fissures of the brain are smoothed, flattened, the substance of the brain is a jelly-like mass of a greenish-red color. Gray matter of the brain is not clearly distinguishable from white, the contours of the ventricles of the brain are indistinguishable, the pattern of the cerebellum substance is discernible poorly. the bases of the brain without features. Subcutaneous fat tissue of the trunk and extremities ("limbs" is clogged or corrected - approx.) Is well developed. The position of the internal organs is correct, the pleural cavities are free. The pericardial bag contained up to 40 cm 3 of an amber liquid. Hearts in the size of 13 x 10 x 6 cm., heart muscle on a section of dark red color, the thickness of the left ventricle muscle 2 cm, right 0.7 cm, in the right and left half of the heart was kept up to 270 cm 3. liquid dark blood, aortic and pulmonary artery smooth , thin, shiny, pale red; the coronary arteries are free, the arteries are enlarged, we pass well; inside the aortic surface smooth, clean, the width of the aortic arch ?? valves 8.5 cm. The lungs from the surface bluish red ??? colors, test doughs to the touch, on the cuts the tissue of the lungs is dark red, when pressed from the surface of the cut st. in a large quantity of liquid dark blood and foamy ??? yanistaya liquid; the larynx and bronchus lumen is free; mucous esophagus, trachea, bronchus bluish-red color. ???? the sub-lingual bone is intact. Thyroid gland on the incision of a flock of reddish color.
Sheet 109 - 6-
? 50 cm 3. liquid mucous mass of reddish-colored, mucous stomach of lilac-red color, swollen, with well expressed folding; On the upper surface of the folds of the stomach there is a large number of small hemorrhages - spots of Wischnewsky. A sour smell is felt by the sense of smell from the contents of the stomach. The pancreas is fine-lobed, lilac-colored in the section. In the lumen of the small intestine contained a mucus mass of reddish color, the mucosa of the intestine is bluish-red. In the large intestine, half-formed feces are light-brown in color, the mucosa of the intestine is pale-gray. The spleen is flabby to the touch, the capsule is wrinkled, the size of the spleen is 1 x 7 x 3 cm, the tissue of its dark-cherry color on slices, the pulp gives a slight scraping from the surface of the incision. The liver from the surface is smooth, shiny, the size of the liver is 9 x 12 x 10 cm, on a cut liver tissue of a bilberry-colored color, full-blooded, the figure of the hepatic tissue is poorly discernible, the gall bladder contains up to 30 cm 3. liquids of olific color, the mucous membrane of the gall bladder is velvety brownish. The kidneys from the surface are smooth, shiny, the capsule is easily removed from them, the size of the right kidney is 11 x 6 x 4 cm, the left kidney is 11 x 5 x 3.5 cm, the tissue of the buds is dark-cherry on the cut, the layers of the kidneys are poorly discernible. The layers of the adrenal glands are clearly distinguishable. The bladder contained about 150 cm 3 of a cloudy, light yellow liquid; the bladder mucosa is pale. In the study of internal organs, the presence of alcohol was not detected. the mucous membrane of the gall bladder is velvety brownish. The kidneys from the surface are smooth, shiny, the capsule is easily removed from them, the size of the right kidney is 11 x 6 x 4 cm, the left kidney is 11 x 5 x 3.5 cm, the tissue of the kidney is dark-cherry on the cut, the layers of the kidneys are poorly discernible. The layers of the adrenal glands are clearly distinguishable. The bladder contained about 150 cm 3 of a cloudy, light yellow liquid; the bladder mucosa is pale. In the study of internal organs, the presence of alcohol was not detected. the mucous membrane of the gall bladder is velvety brownish. The kidneys from the surface are smooth, shiny, the capsule is easily removed from them, the size of the right kidney is 11 x 6 x 4 cm, the left kidney is 11 x 5 x 3.5 cm, the tissue of the buds is dark-cherry on the cut, the layers of the kidneys are poorly discernible. The layers of the adrenal glands are clearly distinguishable. The bladder contained about 150 cm 3 of a cloudy, light yellow liquid; the bladder mucosa is pale. In the study of internal organs, the presence of alcohol was not detected. the bladder mucosa is pale. In the study of internal organs, the presence of alcohol was not detected. the bladder mucosa is pale. In the study of internal organs, the presence of alcohol was not detected. For chemical research and histological examination, a part of internal organs from the examined corpse was taken, which were sent to the laboratory of the Oblast
Sheet 110
- 7 -
Bureau of Forensic Science for Research.
COURT.MED. EXPERT OF THE REGIONAL BUREAU OF SUDMEDEKSPERTIZY - signature / REVIVAL /
COURT.MED. EXPERT OF THE CITY NORTH-URALSK - signature / LAPTEV /
PROSECUTOR OF THE SVERDLOVSK REGION STATE COUNCIL OF JUSTICE III CLASS - signature / KLINOV /
PROSECUTOR OF THE REGIONAL CRIMINALIST PROSECUTORS ML.SOVETNIK JUSTICE - signature / IVANOV /
Based on the data of the investigation of the corpse of citizen DOROSHENKO Yuri Nikolayevich, 21 years old and considering the circumstances of the case, we believe that DOROSHENKO's death came from the effect of a low temperature / freezing / as evidenced by? edema of the meninges, sharp fullness of the internal organs, overflow with liquid dark blood of the heart cavities, presence of Wischnewsky spots on the gastric mucosa, bladder overflow, and frostbite of the limbs 3rd and 4th degree. In case of an external examination, the damage in the form of precipitations, abrasions and cutaneous wounds is caused by a blunt instrument that could have occurred as a result of a fall or injury? stones, ice and so on. The above damage was caused as during life, as well as in the agonal state and posthumously. By the nature of the damage, the above injuries are classified as lungs without a health disorder. The data of the investigation of the corpse DOROSHENKO give grounds to believe that he had a meal 6-8 hours before his death. The presence of alcohol during the study was not detected. Death is forcible, accident.
COURT.MED. EXPERT OF THE REGIONAL
BUREAU OF SUDMEDEKSPERTIZY - signature / REVIVAL /
COURT.MED. EXPERT OF THE CITY NORTH-URALSK - signature / LAPTEV /
Nigel Evans
04-09-2017 13:56 (GMT)
@LC - Two books Don't Go There Post Mortem - Svetlana Oss and Dyatlov Pass Keeps It's Secrets. The first book has a translation of the post mortem reports. What have you read?
Loose-Cannon
04-09-2017 13:52 (GMT)
Then why ignore the only known facts of the case. All else is speculation. Where did you review the material?
Nigel Evans
04-09-2017 13:46 (GMT)
@LC - yes
Loose-Cannon
04-09-2017 13:40 (GMT)
Nigel.
Have you read the actual case files and autopsy reports?
So what if the atmosphere has sufficient mechanical energy (wind/graupnel) to separate free electrons (electron stream) from their atoms (ion stream) and then these two streams cross paths. Then you would get an attraction = acceleration creating a further electron avalanche creating a glow discharge.... Depending on the wind driving all of this it could then be sustained.
Just to argue the point further wrt SZ's photos. Others will argue that most of the images are magnifications of flaws/water damage and are not of real objects. The case against that view is that if true then the frame is of nothing at all other than the night sky. My problem with that theory is that if SZ was a KGB field operative with a camera setup for night photography then he wouldn't be taking pointless pictures... That fact that the frame has been exposed makes it axiomatic that there was something he wanted to record. Also apparently across all the cameras there something like 30 frames that are similar to the SZ's.
Loose-Cannon
04-09-2017 10:54 (GMT)
Good luck in me not posting, and we all know full well the context of what the author is stating regardless of the translation... Nice try.
To overlook all these injuries as just small bumps etc is absolutely insane.
"If you look at the two pictures of melted and then hardened snow -- which extend for ten or more meters,"
You haven't proven said ice sheet exist, nor that a fireball produced it... This is your problem, not mine. Ever seen snow turn crunchy? Ever think conditions have changed since the fatal night? Of course not, everything was exactly as the fireball left it weeks before in some of the most extreme conditions on tje planet... Sure!
Nigel Evans
04-09-2017 09:19 (GMT)
@KMM/John - re wind speed, Svetlana Oss discusses this anomaly, the weather stations (all many miles away) report mild conditions but the locals say very high winds.
Nigel Evans
04-09-2017 09:10 (GMT)
@John - yes that's the famous hot spot, a circular area of snow that has been warmed up sufficiently for the wind to corrugate the slush before it refroze. As you say radiant energy and to me looks like to be exactly in the spot given by the three heads photo. If so then i think you're talking about something as big as a barn (like at Hessdalen). There are a number of accounts that indicate the snow across the whole mountain was warmed up and refroze before the rescue team got there. Evidence for microwave warming imo.
I'm getting excited about the 2012 photos on the viafanzine page 4 :- http://www.viafanzine.jor.br/002imag/03_13/dyatlov4_objeto.jpg . http://www.viafanzine.jor.br/002imag/03_13/dyatlov4_objeto2.jpg . I think connected ion streams glowing at a node is a good explanation for the main object. SZ's plane photos plus the others now make sense. They're not erroneous from camera shake or water damage but of an object in the sky changing form over time. That's why he took each frame, the thing was morphing from one form to another. Could be applicable to the cloud like stuff as well.
@KMM/John - Wrt the den, if you sit down in the open in -20C you're not going to leave your gloves in your pocket or jacket unbuttoned. You're no longer keeping warm from activity so a closed shelter is axiomatic with the use of the seats imo. Svetlana Oss wonders if they had found a mansi hunter shelter as the floor seems to be very well constructed for a temporary hideout for a few hours. Apparently there was a "choom" 800m away. So they must have been within a compact cave any more open structure wouldn't fit the above. Point taken about getting damp but they didn't have the outer layers for anything else. The only way to argue against the cave imo is to argue it was a lot warmer than -20C.
@LC - combat injuries - the problem here is that there is a group of bruises, abrasions cuts etc that are ambiguous, could be combat could be more innocent causes. The case against combat injuries is that there aren't ANY injuries that are CLEARLY combat related - broken noses, black eyes, gouged eyes, torn ears etc etc. The omission of clear combat injuries favours innocent causes for the others imo. I know you're not going to like that answer but it would be nice if you try and reply in fewer posts rather than as many as possible... Maybe just one post, i can dream...
John Wolfe
04-09-2017 08:58 (GMT)
note to KMM : I agree - that wind statement seems way off -- might be the google and etc. translations .
photos that night show a raging storm with high winds -- I go with about 30 to 50 km / hr -- The Ural range is relatively smooth and worn-down, so would be subject to the very high winds we see in not only the photos of that night but nearly every modern video I've seen (and posted) of the area in the winter.
John Wolfe
04-09-2017 08:50 (GMT)
note to LC: I think you're making too much of the individual words in these google and etc. translations of translations (in this case original Russian to Portuguese to English) Think of that game ("telephone" or "telegraph" - I forget which) where you write a message or something and the first person reads it and then tells into the ear of the next - who then from memory has to retell it into the ear of the next and so on ....... after a few iterations it get pretty mixed up and usually funny. Like automatic translations (or even human based translations) If you look at the two pictures of melted and then hardened snow -- which extend for ten or more meters, the report says that as they approached the tent, for the last 20 meters or more they could not use their skis because the snow had melted and hardened into ice -- you tell me -- how was it made -- and -- if there were attackers (as you say) .......... WHY ?
KMM
04-09-2017 08:04 (GMT)
"Under natural conditions, a layer of snow four feet thick could never cover them: there was not enough time, nor snowfall so strong to produce so much snow."
The REAL mystery of the DPI. The author says "where did the snow come from ?" its like it fell from the sky or something.
KMM
04-09-2017 07:37 (GMT)
"The huge layer of frozen snow beneath which the last four hikers were buried at the bottom of the ravine was so strong that it had to be stung with picks and shovels of sapper. Under natural conditions, a layer of snow four feet thick could never cover them: there was not enough time, nor snowfall so strong to produce so much snow" More BS, the guy never heard of drifting ??? Where does he think it came from ? Does BL now cover its dead with snow ? Another property of BL discovered ?
KMM
04-09-2017 07:17 (GMT)
Wind north-northwest 1 m / sec , that's 2.2mph. that is a calm day. Not very believable at all. Everything else I've read says very windy. I would go with very windy.
KMM
04-09-2017 07:07 (GMT)
Death on the TRAIL gave a much different weather report and timeline
Loose-Cannon
04-09-2017 03:34 (GMT)
Yes, yes.... If anyone deeds a schmuck to do their thinking for them. Please do as John says and refer to page 4 as it were written in stone. Johns Law.. 2+2=5
Loose-Cannon
04-09-2017 03:23 (GMT)
Ok... page four is the MOTHER of all BULLPUD. I could literally spend all night on this one, but I wont... this has got to make one at least 10 IQ points dumber.
"Traces at the scene of the incident
1) Presence of a heat source.
Weather Report for Ivdel raion:
"On the night of 1st. February 1959, air temperature dropped almost twice as compared to morning, reaching -20, -21 ° C. In comparison with morning values, air humidity was low, 56%, visibility was of 8 points (on average). Precipitations fell less than 0.5 mm. Wind north-northwest 1 m / sec. Blizzards, hurricanes or storms were not observed . "
On the slopes of the Mountain of the Dead, the temperature, obviously, was much lower, due to height and wind. With a high degree of certainty we can add here from five to seven degrees, which means that the temperature in the dyatlovtsy tent was approaching minus 30 degrees. In the conditions of a strong cold, the humidity is low (the indicated value is 56 percent), and the snow, dry and powder. There should be no ice at all.
But what do we see?
- Near the entrance to the tent, there was an ice patch in the shape of sharp, parallel "ribs" (such icy formations are called internationally from Sastrugui , which is the term of Russian origin). First responders paid attention to this ice islet, with a diameter of about four meters. The ice was very strong, ribbed, as if it were freezing in the form of waves; so that on these sharp "ribs" the snow blocks launched by rescue workers were easily broken off when they were looking for bodies near the tent."
Huh.... Who woulda thunk it! The author just pulls this fricked up crazy ass story outta thin freaking air!! No evidence, no quotes.... nada, zip, NOTHING! Unbelievable
It happened.. I was there... Its all proof in black and white, why question it!?!
John Wolfe
04-09-2017 03:22 (GMT)
note to KMM:
to translate a page I had to first open the page (from the link I supplied) THEN hit translate -- the page always tells me that it isn't working -- THEN HIT REFRESH -- if that doesn't give you a page in English -- hit translate again -- once this is done you should still have to do this for the other three pages; once you've done this I think google sends you a cookie which when you click on the same page later you should get the page in English (if it comes up in a foreign language - just hit translate and it should work right away without any more fooling around)
Loose-Cannon
04-09-2017 03:14 (GMT)
"They walked barefoot and barely dressed, for about a mile and a half, searching for the forest, because it was possible to hide among the trees."
Laff.... its about 1 mile you dingbat, and.... they had a map.... they knew where the trees were, and what evidence is there it was to 'hide'.....with a freaking fire!
Loose-Cannon
04-09-2017 03:10 (GMT)
"Conclusion: "(...) Dubinina's death was caused by extensive congestion in the right ventricle of the heart, multiple bilateral fractures of the ribs, abundant internal congestion in the thoracic cavity.
The indicated lesions could have arisen as a result of the influence of a great force, which caused a severe closed, fatal trauma of Dubinina's rib cage. In addition, the injuries caused in life are precisely the result of the influence of a great force with the subsequent fall, pushing or bruising in the region of the rib cage of Dubinina. (...) Dubinina's death was violent . "
Meh.... cant possibly happen by falling...on a boulder... where she was found! The page author says the following..
"Simply put, the eyeballs were removed (even traces of the retina were not found by the expert, otherwise he would have indicated this), and the tongue, along with the diaphragm of the mouth, were simply pulled out. Such a conclusion is obtained if you pay attention to the "abnormal mobility" of the horns of the hyoid bone in which the tongue is fixed; that is, these horns were broken ."
This guy is a MEGA jackwagon..... she wasnt the only one missing eyes etc... SHE WAS FOUND HALF ROTTED FACE OVER A ROCK WITH RUNNING CREEK WATER POURING INTO THE FACE!
Where do these people come from.... is there no common sense?!?!
Loose-Cannon
04-09-2017 03:02 (GMT)
"From the conversation of the examining magistrate Lev Ivanov with the expert Boris Vozrozhdionny:
" Question: From the action of what force could Thibeaux obtain such injuries?
Answer: In the opinion, it is indicated that the injuries to the head of Thibeaux could be the result of a push, fall or throwing of the body. I do not believe that Thibeaux could get those injuries, falling short of his height, namely that he slipped and hit his head. The wide, depressed, multi-splintered and very deep fracture [of the calvarium and the base of the skull] may be the result of the throwing by a car moving at high speed, or another traffic accident. Such a trauma could have been caused had Thibeaux been struck by a strong gust of wind, with the subsequent fall and blow on the head against the rocks, ice, etc.
Question: Can one presume that Thibeaux was struck by a stone that was in the hand of a man?
Answer: In this case, the soft tissues would be injured, but this was not verified. "
He had on a winter cap!!!!! Meh BL dictates a 'shockwave' did this..... yeah, uh huh
Loose-Cannon
04-09-2017 02:58 (GMT)
"the stove in the tent was found disassembled and placed on the roof."
So which is it?? (bat in hand) It was stowed or disassembled?!?!
Here ya go... Rustem Slobodin
"Opinion of the expert Boris Vozrozhdionniy: "The indicated trauma to the skull was occasioned by a blunt instrument."
Blunt instrument.... or shockwave? Hey... this is the medical experts words right!
Nope.... here comes the BL conspiracy of changing information to suit a narrative as the page author states...
"With this, the reader must remember that Slobodin's corpse had no external characteristics of this alleged " blow struck by a blunt instrument ". The fact is that the expert simply could not find any other explanation for this strange trauma to the skull"
Oh, now isnt that just convenient! Lets make it into what its not!
Another...
"The image of the tragedy was emerging: the last four were preparing, under all the rules of hiker overwintering, a lining to sit in the snow"
So they sat in a hole eh?
KMM
04-09-2017 01:33 (GMT)
I guess it does translate, just slow and not keeping up
-- as it talks about reports of hard melted snow and there are photos -- at least one taken specifically of the melted and hard show (in a circular area like a ball of (?) might do to the snow -- it would have to be RADIANT energy as normal convection of heat would be blown away by the intense winds there. RADIANT energy -- like an intense ball of light would give off.
Loose-Cannon
04-09-2017 01:16 (GMT)
@John .
We did... at least I did. As I stated before, its all based on one wag built upon another to create a BL narrative. , thats the only reason why you want us to read it. There are FAR too many issues on that page to list.
John Wolfe
04-09-2017 01:10 (GMT)
note to all: How about if you go to this site originally posted by Nigel :
and use google translate to read in English-- the read is long but contains many photos of the rescue / recovery effort; and some interesting analysis. I had to reload the page after hitting "translate" and then hit translate again -- worked like a charm.
KMM
04-09-2017 01:01 (GMT)
I've had a fractured skull, mush like RS, I've had broken ribs, not near as severe as LD & SZ, I've got burn scars on my right leg that would put YK's to shame. In guess I was hit by BL, everything you say about BL fits me too, GEE, I thought it was from a motorcycle accident and a softball game. Now I've got to tell family and friends it was BL.
John Wolfe
04-09-2017 01:00 (GMT)
note to Nigel:
I have a friend who lived for years outside in Wyoming winter (fairly close to those conditions experienced by the hikers -- only with clothing and a double bag) He would make a small snow-cave and slide in feet first(in sleeping bag) never suffered in any way. If he wore his outside winter clothing into the snow(more of a den)cave he would have woke up soaked and sweating instead of dry and warm. --- its hard to balance that heat vs. cold.
ALSO: I'm not sure they dug out the snow-cave carefully enough to detail its overall shape, only the location of the branches. I'm wondering if the trail of twigs was a marker for any other survivors who might come looking for them -- recall that three were found in prone positions that look like they were going back to the tent -- to gather the clothing needed for all to survive ? We don't actually know what they all did, except that they all left as a group, and they all seemed to function as a group -- and so after dropping a flashlight in the on position 1/2 way up the hill -- building a fire at the cedar tree -- and building a snow-shelter in the deep snow at the bottom of that small ravine for the most injured -- the least injured attempted to return to the tent. Only it appears that they stopped 1/2 way. (were they stopped by the presence of more balls of light which explode and injure?)
Loose-Cannon
04-09-2017 00:51 (GMT)
and..... Ignored the only real and factual evidence, what little of it we have.
Loose-Cannon
04-09-2017 00:48 (GMT)
Whats funny....
We all acknowledge that BL exists and yet, the fact it exists alone does not prove thats what happened to these people. The only evidence I am seeing for BL is.. "it scared them out of the tent', and there are reports of strange lights in the area 'around' the same time of year.
There is no evidence of a 'hot spot' There is no evidence of 'burnt treetops' or 'burn spots on tree trunks' There is no evidence of a 'den collapse' There is no evidence of 'BL on groups film'
and a few others..... The BL pushers have selectively chosen unsubstantiated BS claims as a FOUNDATION for the theory.
Nigel Evans
04-09-2017 00:41 (GMT)
@KMM - "The inside of a den is not going to be any warmer" Don't agree it would retain heat from breathing etc. I think this is standard mountaineering stuff.
How does "trail of twigs" equate to digging a den ? The trail of twigs led into the snow drift, that's how they found the seats.
note to Anna: again, thanks for the good questions.
The smoothness of the snow field (combined with the relative electrical insulating characteristics of clean / smooth snow) is precisely my point in suggesting that the BL was attracted to the group and their equipment -- as they would be an exposed node. No reason to suggest a plot (nor attribute attack) to anything more than a charged area relative to a smooth electrical field. While I do not think there was any lightning (certainly none reported in any diaries) however, the possibility exists that the causes of regular lightning also cause ball-lightning (simply because they are nearly always seen in conjunction -- I'll expand this idea in the next post) This does not in any way rule out that under certain conditions (which may involve the magnetic and electrical states of the nearby ground / Earth / earth) the causes of regular lightning might make BL instead -- the last photos of the hikers digging into a snowdrift for the tent-site show what looks like a storm to me. Also, I have been looking into the geology of the Urals and conclude that they are a good candidate for unusual grounding and electrio-magnetic conditions. The Urals formed a long time ago and were the result of two smaller continents colliding -- like the Himalayas -- only worn down to their metal rich orogenic foundation.
and see: https://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomag/emag2.html for a really detailed image (right side of the page) of magnetic anomalies -- it is not necessary that you understand the details of this image, but only that you understand that these anomalies are everywhere -- so when coupled with other characteristics of the earth (a local storm plus metal / ore structures, etc) this might produce ball lightning.
This planetary electro-magnetic activity moves around a bit and there are nodes of activity -- perhaps these are located in areas of higher than normal concentrations of metals in that Earth -- such as in the lands which surround the Urals.
Nigel Evans
04-09-2017 00:34 (GMT)
@KMM - you're right the den=snow cave is an assumption. But it is standard technique for escaping the cold. Also it's your assumption that the ravine offered shelter from the wind and NTB was found with his gloves in his pocket, doesn't sound like he was sat in the open on twigs to me. Ditto AK's jacket was unzipped. Also it's very likely that the ravine would have filled with snow to some extent, so if they had a snow bank it would be easy to dig into it. Also the closeness of the seats suggests a cave to me, they're real close...
KMM
04-09-2017 00:33 (GMT)
they found the den (trail of twigs) first before finding the bodies, just checked Svetlana Oss's book. Trail of twigs led from the cedar tree How does "trail of twigs" equate to digging a den ? They weren't trying to build a home, just survive for a few hours, maybe the night. Out of the wind and butts off the snow would of been main priorities. The inside of a den is not going to be any warmer, but getting out of the wind was paramount.
Loose-Cannon
04-09-2017 00:22 (GMT)
I call BS....
You know darn right deep down these were not clumsy booboos. Your talking to a combat Marine thats been through some rough shit but never had these injuries in their quantities afterwards. Face the only known HARD facts we have.... these people gave and received combat blows. Fact
Nigel Evans
04-09-2017 00:13 (GMT)
@LC - they found the den (trail of twigs) first before finding the bodies, just checked Svetlana Oss's book.
We'll have to agree to disagree on the injuries the microwave theory has it that it makes scratches, makes them clumsy, they also dug out the rav4 with their bare hands. It could be RS headbutted the ground hard enough to fracture his head. Apparently the rescue team found the whole mountain to be covered in extremely hard ice. Trying walk uphill or downhill in those conditions in socks could have caused a lot of tumbles.
Loose-Cannon
04-09-2017 00:11 (GMT)
*missing
dont ask
Loose-Cannon
04-09-2017 00:10 (GMT)
Dont forget about the Rocky cut cheek and the chunk-o-skin midding from forehead.
Nigel Evans 04-09-2017 00:01 (GMT) "WHAT DEN ?" Unbelievable level of ignorance.
A flooring was found to keep them off the snow, in the ravine they were already out of the wind A den being dug is pure speculation. you look like the ignorant one to me !
Loose-Cannon
04-09-2017 00:04 (GMT)
@BEAT TO SH*T
Yeah... pretty sure the day before as represented BY THEIR OWN PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE..... they were fine, as in NOT beat to shit. Have you ever been in a fight? How about a really ugly one that was damn near deadly?
LOOK AT ZINAs KNUCKLE AND TELL ME THESE ARE HIKING CUTS!!
FYI... Yuri was helping Zina get on her feet/skies. She was freaking half smiling, and was joyful when upright. YOU CAN NOT EXPLAIN AWAY THEIR INJURIES WITH EVERYDAY BUMPS AND BL!!!
Nigel Evans
04-09-2017 00:01 (GMT)
"WHAT DEN ?" Unbelievable level of ignorance.
Loose-Cannon
03-09-2017 23:57 (GMT)
@KMM
"WHAT DEN ?"
The one that was found intact with twigs for a floor and clothing used as ass pads in all four corners that was covered with snow... no concrete evidence anything 'caved' in. Yet alone it having a solid foot thick ice skull smashing ceiling. I read a report that much of the twig floor was reconstructed by the rescue team. Besides... Lyudmila was found with an avalanche probe with a meat hook barb on the end. How did the search team even know to miraculously dig and find a den some meters away from the bodies? It dont add up
Nigel Evans
03-09-2017 23:54 (GMT)
@BEAT TO SH*T = BS - there's nothing conclusive about these "marks" that cannot explained by other causes, the trek, leaving the tent, digging out the rav4, the edema could be from a fall or even electrocution. For none of them is the cause of death given as violence. They're just cuts, bruises and scratches nothing worse than that, at best you've got signs of a fight between the group. RS's fracture is (like NTB's) devoid of any impact bruising.
KMM
03-09-2017 23:46 (GMT)
My favorite scenario would be that the object exploded outside the den throwing the den
WHAT DEN ?
KMM
03-09-2017 23:39 (GMT)
Loose-Cannon That description of some of the injuries speaks volumes and is clearly enough for someone with an open mind to see a physical confrontation took place !!
Loose-Cannon
03-09-2017 23:34 (GMT)
@Brianchild I said clouds.... CLOUDS!! freakin guy
Beat to shit. Swollen face, cuts, chunk off knuckle, cut wrist. This girl was beat, you know it, and I know it.
note to LC: its not all of one frame but an extreme close-up of a flaw -- a damaged part of the emulsion. The spot you see is not a space ship, not a rocket, nor anything else -- the space it occupies on the emulsion is about 1/2 a mm. and no I don't see any "smoke" or contrail either.
John Wolfe
03-09-2017 23:18 (GMT)
Hi Nigel: Ion streamers with a magnetron at its end.
2. ear, nose and lips are covered with blood <<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT 3. swollen upper lip with dark red hemorrhage <<<<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT 4. right cheek soft tissue covered with gray foam; gray liquid coming form his open mouth. Most apparent cause is pulmonary edema. (Pulmonary Edema.... Fluid in lungs... Common when starved of oxygen) <<<<<<< CHOKED THE FRICK OUT 7. right armpit has a bruise 2x1.5 cm <<<<<<<< FIGHTING 8. brown-red bruises with size 4x1 cm, 2.5x1.5 cm, 5x5 cm in the upper third of right forearm <<<<<<< FIGHTING 9. swelling and small abrasions in the rear of the right hand soft tissue <<<<<<< KICKING SOMEONES ASS 10. bruise with bleeding into the underlying soft tissue on the back of the right hand corresponding to the second metacarpal bone <<<< KICKING SOMEONES ASS 14. on the inner surface of the left forearm there is a surface skin wound covered with dried blood <<<<<<<<< BLOCKING/FIGHTING 15. similar bruises in pale red color on the shins of both legs <<<<<<< FIGHTING GROUND WRESTLE
YURI KRIVONISCHENKO
1. bruises on the forehead 0.3x1.8 cm <<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT 2. diffuse bleeding in the right temporal and occipital region due to damage to temporalis muscle <<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT 3. bruise around left temporal bone <<<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT 7. back of the right hand is swollen, fingers are brownish-purple <<<<<<< KICKING THAT ASS 14. dark red abrasions on left wrist, back of the left hand is swollen <<<<<<<<< KICKING THAT ASS 16.three linear skin lesions with straight edges, sharp corners and depth up to 0.3 cm on the inner side of the upper third of the left thigh <<< FIGHTING, POSSIBLE TREE CLIMBING 17. three cutaneous wounds with sharp corners on the inner side of the upper third of the left hip <<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT 18. dark brown abrasion on the front of the right femur and tibia <<<<< FIGHTING OR BIG FALL 19. dark brown-red abrasions on the front-inner left thigh <<<<<<< FIGHTING OR BIG FALL
IGOR DYATLOV
1. minor abrasions on the forehead <<<<<< FIGHTING BEAT UP 2. minor abrasions on the upper eyelids <<<<<<< FIGHTING BEAT UP 3. brown-red abrasions above the left eyebrow <<<<<<<< FIGHTING BEAT UP 4. minor abrasions on the left cheek <<<<<<<< FIGHTING BEAT UP 5. brown-red abrasions on both cheeks <<<<<<<< FIGHTING BEAT UP 6. dried blood on lips <<<<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT 8. bruised knees without bleeding into the UNDERLYING tissues <<<<<< FIGHTING WRESTLING 9. both ankles had brownish red abrasions, size 1x0.5 cm and 3x2.5 cm with hemorrhage into the 10. underlying tissue <<<<<< FIGHTING POSSIBLE DRAGGING 10. single incision 4x2 cm in the lower third of the right tibia <<<<<< FIGHTING CUT WOUND 11. many small scratches of dark red color on the lower third of the right forearm and palm surface <<<<<<< FIGHTING 13. metacarpophalangeal joints on the right hand had brown red bruises. This is common injury in hand to hand fights. To get a better idea of the injuries just make a fist. This is the part of the hand which you use to hit someone. <<<<<< FIGHTING!!!!!! 14. left hand is brown-purple color with brownish-red bruises <<<< FIGHTING 15. superficial wounds on the 2nd and 5th finger on the left hand <<<<<<< FIGHTING 16. skin wound in the palmar surface of the 2nd 5th finger of left hand <<<<<<< FIGHTING
ZINAIDA KOLMOGOROVA
1. dark red abrasion on the right frontal eminence <<<<< BEAT TO SHIT 2. pale gray area 3x2 cm above the right eyebrow <<<<< STRANGE 3. dark red abrasion on the upper eyelids <<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT 4. brown red graze on the bridge and tip of the nose <<<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT 5. numerous abrasions on the left cheekbone <<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT 6. bruised skin on the right side of the face <<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT 7. brown-red abrasion on the back of both hands in the area of metacarpal phalangeal and inter-phalangeal joints <<<<<< KICKING THAT ASS 8. wound with jagged edges and missing skin on the back of the right hand at the base of the third finger <<<<<<< KICKING THAT ASS 10. a long BRIGHT red bruise 29x6 cm in the lumbar region on the right side of the torso. The bruise looks like left from a baton <<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT..... BATON, BRIGHT RED, FRESH, NOT DAYS OLD, BIG FUGGIN STICK WACK.
RUSTEM SLOBODIN
1. hemorrhages in the temporalis muscles <<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT 2. minor brownish red abrasions on the forehead <<<<<< FIGHTING 3. two scratches are 1.5 cm long at the distance of 0.3 cm between them 4. brownish red bruise on the upper eyelid of the right eye with hemorrhage into the UNDERLYING tissues <<<< BEAT TO SHIT 5. traces of blood discharge from the nose <<<<< BEAT TO SHIT 6. SWELLING and a lot of small abrasions on both sides of the face <<<<<< GOOD GOD BEAT TO SHIT 7. bruises in the metacarpophalangeal joints on both hands. Similar bruises are common in hand to hand combat <<<< KICKING THAT ASS 8. brown cherry bruises on the medial aspect of the left arm and left palm <<<<<<< FIGHTING 9. SWOLEN lips. <<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT 10. bruises on the left tibia in dimensions at 2.5x1.5 cm (not shown on diagram) <<<<< LITERALLY KICKING.... THAT ASS 11. epidermis is torn from the right forearm (not shown on diagram) <<<<< FIGHTING, KICKING ASS 12. fracture of the frontal bone 6x0.1 cm located 1.5 cm from the sagittal suture (showing on separate skull trauma diagram without numbers) BEAT TO SHIT, BLOW TO HEAD, FIGHT OVER, CAN BE DONE WITH FIST, ROCK, LOG, BOOT, YOU PICK
AND THATS JUST THE 5 NOT ROTTED BEYOND RECOGNITION.
Now compare the asymmetry of the light above and the smoke with SZ's photos - Woven mesh, lynx, horn, jaws, mushroom. Quite similar?
Nigel Evans
03-09-2017 22:22 (GMT)
@LC - regarding shockwaves, there's supersonic shockwaves from high explosives and subsonic shockwaves from low order explosives - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blast_wave .
So i'm thinking an LE type blast might be more suitable for the ravine4. It would be intersting to know if a thunderclap could be subsonic.
Nigel Evans
03-09-2017 22:12 (GMT)
@Anna - But what is the origin of this glowing balls That can only be answered by the science of the future.
can they cause the injuries of the 4 in the ravine They have been observed to explode so you have a plausible link with the pathologists "shockwave from a bomb" theory.
My favourite scenario would be that the object exploded outside the den throwing the den wall inwards pushing the occupants down and backwards. NTB fell between SZ and LD just before a big chunk of the den roof fell on the three of them across 2 chests and one head. AK was at the back and injured the back of his head and broke his nose on his knee but escaped the crushing from the collapse. The autopsy didn't seem to investigate the deformed neck so we don't know if that was pre or post event.
Nigel Evans
03-09-2017 22:01 (GMT)
Why have the faces and hands of some of them been beaten to a pulp? They haven't the pathologist describes most of these as ABRASIONS i've made this point before to you?
How does BL strike Zina at the waistline 'like a baton' or club stick? They had a makeshift sled (from skis) that they complained was difficult to pull, just guessing it was from that. Or she fell. I've broken my leg and wrist whilst skiing, split a face mask by headbutting the ground... i don't see anything significant in a waist bruise, it's wild speculation to suggest a baton. They'd spent the week cross country skiing the girls with 40kg backpacks, maybe she did it here - http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Krivonischenko-camera-film6-27.jpg .
How does BL bash in a skill... and dont tell me shockwave. I have fellow Marine buddies that were blown up in iraq. Maybe by exploding in the snowbank, or the den roof collapsing. Either way you're hitting them with superhuman force.
I've no connection to viafanzine btw but the author and i do think along the same lines... But you're right to challenge the facts there.
Anna Yordanova
03-09-2017 21:47 (GMT)
Yes Nigel.I do agree with you.Glow discharge,not ball lightning.But what is the origin of this glowing balls and can they cause the injuries of the 4 in the ravine.I read yesterday a post ,saying that the ball lightning is simply a ball of light and classifying it as a lightning is wrong and that`s why the scientist had not made a reliable conclusion about the BL origin.I am sorry I didn `t safe the page,but I will try to find it again and send a link.I think it was written by an Indian scientist.(not sure).
Loose-Cannon
03-09-2017 21:38 (GMT)
Lets talk more about some of these injuries.
Why have the faces and hands of some of them been beaten to a pulp? How does BL strike Zina at the waistline 'like a baton' or club stick? How does BL bash in a skill... and dont tell me shockwave. I have fellow Marine buddies that were blown up in iraq.
Nigel Evans
03-09-2017 21:31 (GMT)
@LC - you make a good point, i think the black up to the elbow was true when found but lightened considerably in the morgue so could be pooling blood draining away from the skin when thawed perhaps.
Doesn't look like burns in that case
Nigel Evans
03-09-2017 21:16 (GMT)
@Anna - "Basically all the encounters with BL had happened after a lightning strikes" I don't think that's true. Also there are two classifications for lightning, Cloud to Ground (CG) and Cloud to Cloud (CC). CC is by far the most common and possibly one of the causes of BL. But BL might not be an accurate term for the DP lights. Glow discharge might be more accurate.
Loose-Cannon
03-09-2017 21:12 (GMT)
This is what happens when you loose feeling in your fingers and hands due to frost bite. You can easily stick your hands IN or too close to a fire and not feel a thing....Ooops guess he over did it a little. Poor frozen bastage
Loose-Cannon
03-09-2017 21:06 (GMT)
Example
"in the middle phalanx of the fingers 4-5 cutaneous wound with hard edges and charred surface"
You
"Good photo of YK's left hand. I've read that it was black up to the elbow"
Your link
"burns in the left leg and left arm until carbonization"
That entire site/page is gross exaggeration of the facts with an enormous side order of made up crap... specifically to support a BL narrative. This is exactly what you do and in fact, I think you wrote it.
So may have lightened by time the body gets to the morgue....
Loose-Cannon
03-09-2017 20:47 (GMT)
The linked page is crap. I see why you like it though.
Loose-Cannon
03-09-2017 20:27 (GMT)
@Nigel
dont think so... your just seeing frostbite and dark contrast against white snow. http://ibb.co/d3DGJa
Anna Yordanova
03-09-2017 19:32 (GMT)
Basically all the encounters with BL had happened after a lightning strikes.Is there any evidence of thunderstorm at the time of the deaths?Even the BL formed indoors,have formed after thunderstorms.The magnetite ores can attract lightning,but then we have 1 meter snow,which is not a conductor of electricity due to its low density.
Anna Yordanova
03-09-2017 19:10 (GMT)
In the spring of 1984, my youngest brother was struck and killed by "a ball of lightning". This happened during the beginning of a thunderstorm in western lower Michigan. The "ball" made no course changes, just traveled in a straight line about 3 feet off the ground. It struck him square in the chest and blew his shirt off of him. The heat from the impact was so fierce that it burned his internal organs. This is not something to play around with if anyone has the misfortune to be near this phenomena. STAY AWAY! Joel K <kllgg2 a cs com> va USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 02:40:27 (PST)
Nigel Evans
03-09-2017 18:31 (GMT)
Two images of a DP light in 2012 from this page - http://www.viafanzine.jor.br/site_vf/pag/5/dyatlov_part04.htm .
Note the asymmetric structure, interesting :- http://www.viafanzine.jor.br/002imag/03_13/dyatlov4_objeto.jpg . and blow up http://www.viafanzine.jor.br/002imag/03_13/dyatlov4_objeto2.jpg . From memory the video of Hessdalen showed a not dissimilar structure in one case...
Nigel Evans
03-09-2017 18:24 (GMT)
Good photo of YK's left hand. I've read that it was black up to the elbow. - http://www.viafanzine.jor.br/002imag/03_13/dyatlov4_corpos2.jpg . Really looks carbonised imo. Very hard to see how he got this and the leg burn from the fire unless torture was involved, not my favourite theory btw
Nigel Evans
03-09-2017 18:20 (GMT)
@Anna - "Can anyone tell me if the ball lightning has got the same characteristics as the ordinary lightning." Err no, science has no explanation for it?...
Anna Yordanova
03-09-2017 17:55 (GMT)
Can anyone tell me if the ball lightning has got the same characteristics as the ordinary lightning.If it is so,lets don`t forget that the snow is an INSULATOR of electricity and the occurrence of BL is normally associated with thunderstorms or snowstorms.Probably the BL wouldn`t appear just like that from nothing.And the lifespan of this phenomenon is only few seconds.So if they slit the tent to watch the glowing spheres outIside,by the time they had left the tent the spheres would`ve been gone.What if this glowing objects are something else?No one can convince me that the spheres noticed in this part of Ural for 3 months after the perish of the students have been ball lightnings.I am gonna make a research about the properties of some of the geological elements in the area to see if some of them when react with oxygen can produce glowing effect.I don`t think this are BL.
Ural Mining will start to extract nickel in Urals in 2018
Anna Yordanova
03-09-2017 12:46 (GMT)
Hi John.Regarding the copper and nickel in the area.I suppose that the nickel and copper ores became simply depleted,due to the increase demand and high price of metal.The excavation of nickel and copper is quiet difficult as the ores are very deeply in the ground and the process of excavating them is long and expensive too.Norilsk Nickel is trying to develop new mines,containing nickel-rich ores,but this will require a huge amount of investments.
Nigel Evans
03-09-2017 12:43 (GMT)
@John - it's on Google maps - Dyatlov Pass, Sverdlovsk Oblast, Russia. That's all i know.
Loic
03-09-2017 07:32 (GMT)
I've found this video about ball lightning occurence in Slovakia https://youtu.be/s_HYPjHSApQ Difficult to see if it's genuine or a fake... but quite interesting.
John Wolfe
03-09-2017 07:21 (GMT)
note to Anna: re - lightning strikes men four times that of women --- maybe men just go outside 4 times more -- or take chances 4 times more -- like the guy who, during a storm, picks up a metal rod, points it at the sky (makes a joke?) and ........... predictably .......... gets the Darwin Award from a bolt of (conventional) lightning !
John Wolfe
03-09-2017 07:12 (GMT)
KMM -- why not read this:
--- old accounts of ball lightning ? or something like it.
KMM
03-09-2017 01:47 (GMT)
None the less, historic accounts going back hundreds of years describe BL as moving past some people (leaving them completely unhurt) and then touching others (killing them instantly) Some times it seems that BL can follow a conductor (like a carbon/soot lined chimney or a wire into a building -- and my favored hypothesis: that it is moved around by ion streamers, the things that regular lightning also follows, or by explosive cloud discharge
THATS THE OLD BL (BS) WE ALL KNOW AND LOVE ( can and can't, might or might not, will or will not)
John Wolfe
03-09-2017 01:42 (GMT)
If you "anthropomorphize" (is that a word?) a thing -- you detract from the discussion:
Anthropomorphism is a literary device that can be defined as a technique in which a writer ascribes human traits, ambitions, emotions or entire behavior to animals, non-human beings, natural phenomena or objects.
for example -- ascribing intent to ball lightning.
John Wolfe
03-09-2017 01:34 (GMT)
for Anna, and those who are genuinely interested, ball lightning must have some mechanism of attraction to a target -- kind of like regular lightning does -- only BL seems to be very different from regular lightning. Still, ball lightning might select by attraction to a charged surface -- for instance a metal stove, or a person or group standing out in a snow-field, next to a tent, who would act like an electrical node or charged pole. None the less, historic accounts going back hundreds of years describe BL as moving past some people (leaving them completely unhurt) and then touching others (killing them instantly) Some times it seems that BL can follow a conductor (like a carbon/soot lined chimney or a wire into a building -- and my favored hypothesis: that it is moved around by ion streamers, the things that regular lightning also follows, or by explosive cloud discharge, once opposite charge-masses connect)
and thanks to LC for mentioning my favorite subject ..........
John Wolfe
03-09-2017 01:16 (GMT)
interesting that LC and others mention those burnt tree tops --- ball lightning might do that ....... there seems to be no badly burnt tree tops so we can most likely eliminate regular lightning (as it heats trees up so much that they either burst into flames or split apart. Also - none of the hikers had any signs of regular lightning strikes.
KMM
03-09-2017 01:11 (GMT)
Err because there weren't any trees beyond the treeline?
There were trees from the treeline to the ravine in which you said the explosion happened !
KMM
03-09-2017 01:06 (GMT)
That explains why there were casualties, dead birds but no blast pattern. It also explains why the rav4 trauma doesn't include blast injuries such as burst lungs, if the explosion happened in the snow bank it would attenuate the supersonic shockwave quickl
TOTAL BS !!
KMM
03-09-2017 00:51 (GMT)
Nigel : I got the impression that after the hikers had walked, on their own legs more than 500 m down the slope, SOME OF THEM WERE TARGETED.
Your quoting Ivanov as fact, you must agree with him !
John Wolfe
03-09-2017 00:47 (GMT)
note to everyone: can anyone help me find maps -- what I'm looking for is
1) a general map of WHERE in the Urals the DPI occurred, showing the relation to cities and rivers -- since my knowledge of Russian geography is limited I need to learn the relationships of various areas; this might help in ruling out some of the crazy theories -- like that "escaped gulag prisoners" killed the hikers (and then took nothing) Note: that huge gulag closed several years earlier and seems to be too far from the DPI.
2) specifically -- the map has to show me how distant the DPI is to Norilsk -- a mining town -- one of the largest and which until the early 1950's contained the notorious Norillag.
Norilsk Corrective Labor Camp (Russian: Норильлаг, Норильстрой, Норильский ИТЛ) was a gulag labor camp set by Norilsk, Krasnoyarsk Krai, Russia and headquartered there. It existed from June 25, 1935 to August 22, 1956.[1]
Initially, the Norillag labor force was responsible for the construction of the Norilsk mining-metallurgic complex and for mining copper and nickel. Its activities gradually expanded into virtually all economical functions of the region, from fishing to "reconstruction of the house where lived Comrade I.V. Stalin in exile".[1]
Starting from 1,200 inmates in 1935, its numbers jumped to 9,000 in 1937 (the onset of the Great Purge) and peaked in 1951 at 72,500, housed in 30 camp sections. Memorial estimates the total number of its inmates over the history of the camp at 400,000, with about 300,000 being political prisoners. The geography of this camp system included the Norilsk area, including Dudinka and Kayerkan, as well as more remote places, including Krasnoyarsk and some agricultural camps in Kureika (village), Atamanovo and Shushenskoye
Initially the construction activities were handled by the Norilstroy (Норильстрой), while Norillag supplied the workforce and some infrastructure.
In 1953, shortly after the death of Joseph Stalin, the Gorlag camp of Norillag system was the place of the major Gulag revolt, known as the Norilsk uprising.
It was closed in 1957, together with most of the Gulag system.[2
Norilsk is located between the West Siberian Plain and Central Siberian Plateau at the foot of the 1,700-meter (5,600 ft) high Putoran Mountains, on some of the largest nickel deposits on Earth. Consequently, mining and smelting ore are the major industries. Norilsk is the center of a region where nickel, copper, cobalt, platinum, palladium and coal are mined. Mineral deposits in the Siberian Craton had been known for two centuries before Norilsk was founded, but mining began only in 1939, when the buried portions of the Norilsk-Talnakh intrusions were found beneath mountainous terrain.
WHAT I'M LOOKING INTO IS THAT "ABANDONED" MINING VILLAGE THE HIKERS WENT THROUGH. In one of the known photos of that village you can see a light-pole in the distance (far right side of the photo) with two working lights, like street lights.
Note to Anna, thanks for the mining info -- but no mention of nickel and copper mining in that -- any idea WHY ?
Loose-Cannon
02-09-2017 23:04 (GMT)
"dead birds"
Listed under the same section as burnt treetops, warm spot, "rays of warmth" etc.... Right there in the Fireball category without melting anything because it NOW selectively targets objects above a certain height from the ground to be burned etc.
Show me the investigation photographs of these things, or they simply do not exist!
Nigel Evans
02-09-2017 22:25 (GMT)
@Loose-Cannon - "microwave soliton"?
@KMM - seems like this would of been important info, why wait many yrs to mention it. He did but he was told to close the case and forget everything he knew. This was the Soviet Union in 1959, you didn't disobey orders.. Could be worth reading up on the DPI subject, Ivanov being told to shutup about fireballs is page one, chapter one...
Why couldn't they follow the burn pattern back to the source, it should of got more pronounced ! Err because there weren't any trees beyond the treeline?
If it was the tree TOPS, where was the damage below ? Ivanov might not have said treetops, not sure.
You just posted the explosion was in the ravine . That explains why there were casualties, dead birds but no blast pattern. It also explains why the rav4 trauma doesn't include blast injuries such as burst lungs, if the explosion happened in the snow bank it would attenuate the supersonic shockwave quickly.
The investigation team have apparently talked of hiding in their tents to escape rollers, could be what happened at the DPI.
@Anna - "Scientists have concluded that the lightnings strike four times more men than women.Maybe the lightnings like testosterone.I don`t know. " Probably because they're taller and bigger (more salty water), could be some electrical property at work perhaps. I've read that human beings can can act as aerials and resonate at VHF (female) to UHF (male). But we know that lightning isn't sentient, "selective doesn't mean sentient just like lightning..." I like that, a good sound bite to copy and paste at KMM and Loose-Cannon ad infinitum
KMM
02-09-2017 21:21 (GMT)
I got the impression that after the hikers had walked, on their own legs more than 500 m down the slope, some of them were targeted.
Looks like giving SENTIENT properties to that BS again
Anna Yordanova
02-09-2017 21:17 (GMT)
@Nigel.How is the BL selective?How it will target its victims?I don`t think that it has got intellect. Scientists have concluded that the lightnings strike four times more men than women.Maybe the lightnings like testosterone.I don`t know.
KMM
02-09-2017 21:10 (GMT)
A fragment of the interview with Ivanov many years later MANY years later "at the edge of the forest" not very specific.
seems like this would of been important info, why wait many yrs to mention it. Why couldn't they follow the burn pattern back to the source, it should of got more pronounced ! If it was the tree TOPS, where was the damage below ? You just posted the explosion was in the ravine .
Loose-Cannon
02-09-2017 21:10 (GMT)
"ray of warmth, or a very strong, but completely unknown, form of energy, which acted selectively."
You know what im about to say.... right?
Nigel Evans
02-09-2017 21:02 (GMT)
@KMM - A fragment of the interview with Ivanov many years later :- When, in May, Maslennikov and I were examining the scene we discovered that some young fir trees on the edge of the forest had traces of burning, but these traces had no concentric shape or system; there was no epicentre. These confirmed the direction of this force, which was a kind of a ray of warmth, or a very strong, but completely unknown, form of energy, which acted selectively. The snow was not melted. The trees were not damaged. I got the impression that after the hikers had walked, on their own legs more than 500 m down the slope, some of them were targeted.
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (p. 136). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
KMM
02-09-2017 20:50 (GMT)
Burnt tree tops I think the general idea is that people believe the officials in the investigation team
I believe it was singed treetops. no mention in what location this was, how many miles away. could of been from REGULAR lightning if it was at all
Loose-Cannon
02-09-2017 19:26 (GMT)
BL promoters in this echo chamber do not like their theory being challenged. FACT
Dont hate the messenger. Its not my fault the BL people built a narrative based on unsubstantiated reports, claims, and pure conjecture in an attempt 'to make it fit'.
Loose-Cannon
02-09-2017 19:06 (GMT)
"Loose Cannon - when you gonna shut your retarded mouth already?"
Im SO intimidated!!! WHERE IS MY MAMA!?!?!?
Ill be your huckleberry. =)
Loose-Cannon
02-09-2017 19:03 (GMT)
"Burnt tree tops I think the general idea is that people believe the officials in the investigation team."
translation: I believe every wild ass story that came from college student hikers and the like.....'if' it fits my narrative.
All crap.... you speak as if these are official evidence within the case files. They are not. Its all crap, not factual evidence.
"Typing on your keyboard?"
Yeah, but NOW is the perfect example, and I am NOT the only one in this boat. BL BL BL BL BL BL
99.99% of my dyatlov free time goes towards trying to figure out how you came to all your conclusions based on..... crap. Someone has to point out most of your explanations are based on selective cherry-picking of BS reports etc.
Again... Why you feel the need to over exploit unsubstantiated information as fact is beyond me. Quite the imagination!
Lightning
02-09-2017 18:53 (GMT)
Loose Cannon - when you gonna shut your retarded mouth already?
Nigel Evans
02-09-2017 18:47 (GMT)
@NoiseBox - NOW HEAR THIS.... BL IS THE ONLY THEORY. THE GOD-SQUAD HAS SPOKEN! I like it, now if you set that to music it could catch on.... Maybe add it to your video.
Burnt tree tops I think the general idea is that people believe the officials in the investigation team.
How/when is anyone supposed to discuss OTHER possibilities Typing on your keyboard?
Loose-Cannon
02-09-2017 18:22 (GMT)
"yeah yeah yeah. 99.9% effort attacking someone else's theory 0.01% effort explaining his own..."
Dude... 99.99 percent of this thread is BL BL BL BL BL BL.... oh, here is some more BS...I mean BL.
How/when is anyone supposed to discuss OTHER possibilities when BL is suckin up all the available bandwidth?
NOW HEAR THIS.... BL IS THE ONLY THEORY. THE GOD-SQUAD HAS SPOKEN!
Loose-Cannon
02-09-2017 18:16 (GMT)
"Burnt treetops? YK's leg?"
WHERE IS THE PROOF THIS EXISTED?? WOULDN'T YOU THINK SOMEONE WOULD HAVE TAKEN A PICTURE OF SAID TREETOPS?? PERHAPS DRAW A FREAKING MAP.... TAKE SOME MEASUREMENTS ETC... YOU KNOW>>>> DOCUMENTATION OF AN OFFICIAL ORDER!
YKs LEG..... OH, YOU MEAN THE GUY FOUND NEXT TO A FREAKING FIRE!?!
Nigel Evans
02-09-2017 18:00 (GMT)
@LC - yeah yeah yeah. 99.9% effort attacking someone else's theory 0.01% effort explaining his own...
@KMM - where is the blast pattern ? An explosion of that size would of leveled trees Not if the explosion was IN the ravine snowbank.... The blast would go mainly up in the air harmlessly. Unless you were sat in the snowbank of course, then it's not so harmless.
Where are the electrical burns from the BL ? Burnt treetops? YK's leg?
KMM
02-09-2017 17:52 (GMT)
I ask again : KMM 01-09-2017 23:40 (GMT) john wolfe : as exploding with great acoustic force, This would entail an explosion, where is the blast pattern ? Where are the electrical burns from the BL ? ( BL = BS An explosion of that size would of leveled trees
Loose-Cannon
02-09-2017 17:35 (GMT)
@KMM
"ball lightning must be the God particle, it can do miracle's !"
If this is your 'evidence'..... Your position is much more futile then I had originally thought. This is exactly what I am talking about. You point to useless conjecture based on hearsay, and then point to it as facts and evidence. Dozens of these actions..... you got yourself a BL theory. Unbelievable!
SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE
Do not expect anyone to look at that load of manure and explain THEIR theory as if it were facts that dont jive. Total BS.
KMM
02-09-2017 17:31 (GMT)
ball lightning must be the God particle, it can do miracle's !
Nigel Evans
02-09-2017 17:15 (GMT)
@LC - it is fun arguing with you....
"WHERE IS THE PROOF THIS EXISTED?? WOULDN'T YOU THINK SOMEONE WOULD HAVE TAKEN A PICTURE OF SAID HOT-SPOT?? PERHAPS DRAW A FREAKING MAP.... TAKE SOME MEASUREMENTS ETC?? " http://www.viafanzine.jor.br/site_vf/pag/5/dyatlov_part04.htm
and the relevant images are :- http://www.viafanzine.jor.br/002imag/03_13/dyatlov4_cedro.jpg Translation Location of the incident. From the back, is the promoter Vassili Tempalov and Evgueni Maislennikov. The blue rectangle indicates the tent installation; the pink oval shows the boundaries of the icy stain near the entrance of the tent; the green line shows the route of the escape from the tent unto the cedar; 1 - folded tent; 2 - dyatlovtsy backpacks and skis; 3 - icing, 4 - cedar.
@Anna - i think the theory is that the person "on watch" wore two watches to ensure that if one stopped they could wind it and reset the time with the other one.
Loose-Cannon
02-09-2017 16:44 (GMT)
@ KMM "Well, which is it ? it can or it can't, it might or it might not, it will or it won't, it does or it doesn't....... must be pretty easy to make a theory about BL when you can pick and choose what you want it to do! But not an iota of evidence"
BINGO
Its the same as scientist needing to justify continuing funding... In the early 80s it was "global cooling".. proved false. Then it became "global warming"...... false. Now its the term of all terms you drive a false narrative with the ultimate in plausible deniability.... "Climate change"
Its the same crap
Loose-Cannon
02-09-2017 16:37 (GMT)
"Not good enough, your theory has to explain the facts possibly by giving all the scenarios that fit"
"This is the same as Loose-Cannon, you have a theory but no details. That is the same as not having a theory!"
I call BS... one does NOT need to invent fantastical scenarios to explain the unknown. This is something one does to force their narrative into the realm of possible when not needed. In fact, it usually drives the theory into more and more of a fantastical implausible scenario. Some people haven't learned how to simply state the words "I dunno". I can easily come up with explanations for any given circumstance within a theory, but that would be compiling a theory based on mostly conjecture.... some thing you tend to do ALOT, and I will likely not.
"Absolutely, but the three heads photo has it just outside the tent (as does the hot spot)"
OMG... The photo is crap... NOBODY KNOWS WHAT THAT EXPOSURE IS!!! "Hot-spot" Oh for frick sakes... WHERE IS THE PROOF THIS EXISTED?? WOULDN'T YOU THINK SOMEONE WOULD HAVE TAKEN A PICTURE OF SAID HOT-SPOT?? PERHAPS DRAW A FREAKING MAP.... TAKE SOME MEASUREMENTS ETC??
You are STILL presuming unknowns and conjecture as FACT. Then you have the go-nads to act as if WE have to explain our theory based on YOUR (quite possibly false) interpretation of facts.
This echo-chamber you call a discussion thread is completely off the rails into the unknown based on a pile of steaming poo.
Anna Yordanova
02-09-2017 16:30 (GMT)
Does anyone has got an idea why Tibeaux-Brignolle had two watches on his wrist?One had stopped at 8:14 and the other one at 8:39.
Nigel Evans
02-09-2017 16:24 (GMT)
@KMM - "must be pretty easy to make a theory about BL when you can pick and choose what you want it to do!" Yes
"But not an iota of evidence " - there's plenty on youtube? There are thousands of accounts historically. Here's a ink i've given you before - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-37843273 .
KMM
02-09-2017 16:18 (GMT)
Descriptions of ball lightning vary widely. It has been described as moving up and down, sideways or in unpredictable trajectories, hovering and moving with or against the wind; attracted to,[37] unaffected by, or repelled from buildings, people, cars and other objects. Some accounts describe it as moving through solid masses of wood or metal without effect, while others describe it as destructive and melting or burning those substances. Its appearance has also been linked to power lines[38] as well as during thunderstorms and also calm weather. Ball lightning has been described as transparent, translucent, multicolored, evenly lit, radiating flames, filaments or sparks, with shapes that vary between spheres, ovals, tear-drops, rods, or disks.
Well, which is it ? it can or it can't, it might or it might not, it will or it won't, it does or it doesn't....... must be pretty easy to make a theory about BL when you can pick and choose what you want it to do! But not an iota of evidence
Nigel Evans
02-09-2017 16:05 (GMT)
@KMM - "I don't know the details of how everything went down" Not good enough, your theory has to explain the facts possibly by giving all the scenarios that fit. How did the den get there? Well there were four seats in it and there were four bodies found just a few meters away, three of them from high energy (superhuman force) trauma. So an explosion coupled with a collapse of the den roof fits. If you want to contest that then you have to explain a different cause for these strange injuries. This is the same as Loose-Cannon, you have a theory but no details. That is the same as not having a theory!
"You are giving sentient properties to ball lightning ! " No John puts this well, if lightning strikes you under a tree it's not because it "meant" to do it. It's just following the laws of physics.
9 hikers ARE NOT going to leave their tent undressed because they see a light in the sky, that is a totally laughable idea ! Absolutely, but the three heads photo has it just outside the tent (as does the hot spot). If the BL = microwave soliton theory is correct then it could be getting very hot in the tent, it could be getting very noisy (BL witnesses talk of rattling) and there could be pain possibly from burns.
KMM
02-09-2017 15:06 (GMT)
3. 4 of them including a WW2 veteran build a den 70m from the fire with a trail of footsteps leading from the fire to the den. But there is no reason to think that the robbers would want to kill them oh no.
We don't know they dug a den. I don't know the details of how everything went down . You are giving sentient properties to ball lightning ! 9 hikers ARE NOT going to leave their tent undressed because they see a light in the sky, that is a totally laughable idea !
Nigel Evans
02-09-2017 11:45 (GMT)
@KMM - "are you that dense ?" So your theory is that :- 1. they were thrown out of the tent by robbers who occupied the tent. 2. although the students were lightly dressed and now face death by hypothermia as a result of being forced out they don't think the robbers are nasty enough to come and kill them so they light a fire visible from the tent area. 3. 4 of them including a WW2 veteran build a den 70m from the fire with a trail of footsteps leading from the fire to the den. But there is no reason to think that the robbers would want to kill them oh no. 4. then the robbers come and kill 6 of them. 3 of these deaths are stated by the pathologist to require energies consistent with a car crash or bomb. 5. 3 of them escape back to the tent but the robbers pursue these 3 and somehow prevent two of them reaching the tent forcing them to die of cold (RS collapses from head injuries). 6. robbers clear up the area of all signs that they were there well enough to fool investigation teams from the police and kgb.
Sorry guy if that's your theory then it's a farce. Even if the students were that naive, a WW2 veteran and assumed KGB agent wouldn't have been. "The existence of the fire rules out a sentient threat". Do you understand that? Loose-Cannon does that's why his murder theory is internal to the group although he's a little light on the detail for instance just how the ravine 4 were killed.
@Loose-Cannon - "I think Nigel is a pretty intelligent guy." At last something we can agree on.
Loose-Cannon
01-09-2017 23:59 (GMT)
@KMM
I see. Welp, it goes in-part with overlooking things that do not fit his narrative.
KMM
01-09-2017 23:53 (GMT)
Loose-Cannon 01-09-2017 23:30 (GMT) "are you that dense ?"
I think Nigel is a pretty intelligent guy. He just refuses to acknowledge any flaws within the BL narrative, and will not accept any other possibilities other then BL.
Yeah but the very question he ask was already answered in the original comment I posted.
KMM
01-09-2017 23:40 (GMT)
john wolfe : as exploding with great acoustic force, This would entail an explosion, where is the blast pattern ? Where are the electrical burns from the BL ? ( BL = BS )
Loose-Cannon
01-09-2017 23:30 (GMT)
"are you that dense ?"
I think Nigel is a pretty intelligent guy. He just refuses to acknowledge any flaws within the BL narrative, and will not accept any other possibilities other then BL.
Loose-Cannon
01-09-2017 23:27 (GMT)
@Mrs.Tinkle Great... more expertise from the main frickup of the case. Uh yuck, thats not the only thing capable of breaking ribs, and it does not explain the bashed in skill.... thats blunt force trauma and you know it
Bwahahahaha. Fixed it. God I hate this layout.
Kmm
01-09-2017 23:27 (GMT)
Nigel Evans 01-09-2017 16:31 (GMT) @KMM - err the robbers didn't do any robbing...
No, because they were not there to do any robbing. The hikers just thought they were going to be robbed. Thats why they built the fire !
are you that dense ?
@Mrs.Tinkle
01-09-2017 23:26 (GMT)
Great... more expertise from the main frickup of the case. Uh yuck, thats not the only thing capable of breaking ribs, and it does not explain the bashed in skill.... thats blunt force trauma and you know it.
Nigel Evans
01-09-2017 22:57 (GMT)
@Mr Angry - "WHERE IS THIS "SHOCKWAVE" REPORT???" You have got to be kidding me, i thought you had studied the DPI for years....
From the official interview from Ivanov and the pathologist :- "Question: How is it possible to explain the cause of the damage to Dubinina and Zolotaryov? Is it possible to combine them into one cause? Answer: I think the character of the wounds on Dubinina and Zolotaryov – a multi-splintered fracture of the ribs – on Dubinina were bilateral and symmetrical, and on Zolotaryov were one-sided. Both had haemorrhaging into the cardiac muscle with haemorrhaging into the pleural cavity, which is evidence of them being alive [when injured] and is the result of the action of a large force, similar to the example used for Tibo. These wounds, especially appearing in such a way without any damage to the soft tissue of the chest, are very similar to the type of trauma that results from the shock wave of a bomb.
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (pp. 99-100). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition. "
Nigel Evans
01-09-2017 22:49 (GMT)
@John - "Are there other areas on Earth where this happens?"
@John The Ural Mountains contain about 48 species of economically valuable ores and economically valuable minerals. Eastern regions are rich in chalcopyrite, nickel oxide, gold, platinum, chromite and magnetite ores, as well as in coal (Chelyabinsk Oblast), bauxite, talc, fireclay and abrasives. The Western Urals contain deposits of coal, oil, natural gas (Ishimbay and Krasnokamsk areas) and potassium salts. Both slopes are rich in bituminous coal and lignite, and the largest deposit of bituminous coal is in the north (Pechora field). The specialty of the Urals is precious and semi-precious stones, such as emerald, amethyst, aquamarine, jasper, rhodonite, malachite and diamond. Some of the deposits, such as the magnetite ores at Magnitogorsk, are already nearly depleted.[1][4]
Minerals from the Ural Mountains Andradite-23893.jpg Beryl-md20a.jpg Platinum-41654.jpg Quartz-34654.jpg Andradite Beryl Platinum
John Wolfe
01-09-2017 22:02 (GMT)
Once I've created a coherent picture of the DPI -- I will go back to studying ball lightning and see if there really is evidence for BL -- which might occur at magnetic nodes at various places on the Earth. There definitely were numerous reportings of BL in that area -- WHY there? Is the appearance of BL still being reported in that area? Are there other areas on Earth where this happens? Is this related to geological features - such as metals or peculiar rock formations ?(the "abandoned" village was drilling cores from local formations for a reason -- some showing quartz with metal intrusions -- I think they were looking for copper) Any ideas about the geology of that area?
Loose-Cannon
01-09-2017 21:52 (GMT)
@Mrs.Prick
"Q. So if they were forced out of the tent in their socks by murderers why did they let them light a fire? Q. Why did they let them build a den for four people? Q. Why didn't they kill the last three? Q. Why did the (approx) 30 strong investigation team not recognise signs of their footprints, ski tracks.? Q. Why would the group cut several slits on one side of the tent but not the other side? Q. What's the explanation for the SZ photos? Random damage that looks exactly like an eye witness account? Q. Why did an experienced police detective not continue with this theory if it is so MUCH more feasible? Q. Why did the pathologist say that the ravine4 injuries were only consistent with the energy in a car crash or bomb shockwave?"
The above questions are not posed to me, my theory, nor would they apply. My murder theory involves no outside persons. But lets have some fun.
#1, So if they were forced out of the tent in their socks by murderers why did they let them light a fire? BECAUSE MURDERER/S DIDN'T FORCE THEM OUT OF THE TENT, THE TREAT CAME FROM WITHIN THE GROUP.
#2, Why did they let them build a den for four people? PLEASE REFER TO #1
#3, Why didn't they kill the last three? REDUNDANT... PLEASE SEE #1 AND #2, AND HOW THE FRICK DO YOU KNOW WHICH WERE THE LAST TO DIE YET ALONE THE ORDER?? SOUNDS LIKE MORE BL MEGA-REACHING TO THIS GUY!
#4, Why did the (approx) 30 strong investigation team not recognise signs of their footprints, ski tracks.? OMG, PLEASE SEE # 1,2, AND 3
#5, Why would the group cut several slits on one side of the tent but not the other side? THE PROBLEM HERE IS YOU STILL REFUSE TO ACCEPT THE POSSIBILITY THE TENT RECEIVED ITS CUTS VIA ANY OTHER MEANS OTHER THEN WHAT FITS YOUR NARRATIVE.... DID YOU READ THE DAMN DIARIES? ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF SELECTIVE DATA MINING! SUCH A STELLAR INVESTIGATOR YOU ARE.
#6, What's the explanation for the SZ photos? Random damage that looks exactly like an eye witness account? THERE IS NOTHING RANDOM OR RARE ABOUT FILM DAMAGE AFTER BEING SUBMERGED UNDER WATER AND AROUND A ROTTING CORPS NECK FOR MONTHS. THE VERY FACT YOU SEE THIS AS SUCH DEFINITIVE EVIDENCE IS TROUBLING TO SAY THE LEAST.
#7, Why did an experienced police detective not continue with this theory if it is so MUCH more feasible? OH, LETS JUST TAKE A LOOK AT WHY THIS AND WHY THAT.... THE GUY WAS APARENTLY A RETARD JUDGING BY THE WAY THE INVESTIGATION WAS HANDLED AND THE APPARENT LACK OF DOCUMENTATION THAT MAY BE CRUCIAL TO THE CASE. THE GUY IS AN IDIOT..... HENCE THE REASON WHY ITS STILL UNSOLVED!!! WHY IS THE OFFICIAL CAUSE OF DEATH NOT CLEARLY IDENTIFIED AS BL? BECAUSE DECADES LATER THE FART SAYS 'BL' AND PEOPLE LIKE YOU BUY IT HOOK/LINE/SINKER. WAY TO THINK FOR YOURSELF!
#8, Why did the pathologist say that the ravine4 injuries were only consistent with the energy in a car crash or bomb shockwave? WHERE IS THIS "SHOCKWAVE" REPORT??? IF YOU THINK A CAR CRASH IS THE ONLY THING CAPABLE OF CAUSING THESE TYPES OF INJURIES, YOU NEED TO GET OUT MORE. i ALSO FIND IT HILARIOUS THE BASHED IN SKULL IS NO OFTEN OVER LOOKED AS KEY EVIDENCE AND SOMEHOW ATTRIBUTED TO A 'SHOCKWAVE', OF MAGNETIC MICROWAVE RADIANT TRANSLUCENT CONDUCTOR FLUX-CAPACITOR LIGHTNING BOLT THUNDER-CRACKIN HOB-KNOB..... BUNCH OF BOOBOO BABLE HORK SPIT, THANK YOU MAY I HAVE ANOTHER. LETS PICK UP A ROCK OR BIG FREAKING STICK.... SEE WHAT HAPPENS. KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID RIGHT!?!?!
HOWS THAT, WHAT I SAY, WHO ME? WHERE? OH LOOKIE, A SQUIRREL!!
John Wolfe
01-09-2017 21:49 (GMT)
Nigel -- what do you mean? African or European Gorge ?
Anna Yordanova
01-09-2017 21:24 (GMT)
@John.Thank you for your detailed response.
Nigel Evans
01-09-2017 21:23 (GMT)
@John - not the Gorge of Eternal Peril perchance?
John Wolfe
01-09-2017 20:20 (GMT)
note to Nigel: Thanks for the you tube post -- I needed a Python ...... theory of the brontosaurus ...... indeed, reminds me of ....... well ..... a certain canyon .......
@John - 2yuris = YK and YD. They seem to die first so maybe they were hurt at the tent, creating the necessity to leave. It has been commented that the footsteps show the group walking side by side, there are several explanations for that but one could be assisting walking wounded.
John Wolfe
01-09-2017 20:05 (GMT)
Hi Nigel, could you expand your question to me?
"@John - like if the 2yuris were burnt at the tent? "
who / what are "the 2yuris" -- are they the two with more extensive burns, who were found around that fire behind the cedar tree?
John Wolfe
01-09-2017 20:00 (GMT)
note to Nigel: t I think you have good answers to some silly questions -- some posters are giving silly questions, expecting them to be answered with silly answers -- your post: "@KMM - do you understand the difference between sentient and non sentient?" is a fine example. Thanks.
Nigel Evans
01-09-2017 19:58 (GMT)
@John - like if the 2yuris were burnt at the tent?
John Wolfe
01-09-2017 19:51 (GMT)
one last note about Anna's question: "if the ones who went outside to relieve themselves were killed by the BL,I don`t see any reason for the rest of the group to drag them far away and leave them under the cedar.They could leave the bodies there and run for their lives" --- perhaps they were injured and would die eventually, or sooner than expected; but not being killed instantly, their fellow hikers would help their friends escape. This might also explain what looks like walking and not running, by at least some of the hikers - maybe they couldn't run and needed help getting away from the tent area.
Nigel Evans
01-09-2017 19:50 (GMT)
@Ms Elk - you said, "These are just 'unknowns', and only really apply to the 'outsiders' murder theory."
I think your dinosaur theory had more detail...
Loose-Cannon
01-09-2017 19:29 (GMT)
@Nigel=prick - Is that what I said???
Nigel Evans
01-09-2017 19:22 (GMT)
@LC=Anne Elk - so your murder theory is that they were murdered somehow but no need for boring details like how, who by etc?...
John Wolfe
01-09-2017 19:05 (GMT)
note to Sandy: the ball lightning is reported, in several centuries of sightings, as exploding with great acoustic force (think, thunder clap, right next to your head !) Force strong enough to knock down stone walls is also strong enough to damage a human. So the major injuries seen could easily be the result of a shock-wave in the air -- broken ribs, cracked skulls, internal damage with no surface / skin and tissue damage. For example: if you hit someone with a club, there will be obvious surface damage showing a club was used -- BUT -- what if you hit someone with an air / shock wave ?
ALSO: we actually do not have any evidence they walked calmly down the hill -- there are too few photos of footprints (I've seen only two) and not much said about the nature and organization of these foot prints -- yes, they all went in one direction; yes, they seem to take careful steps -- but recall they were more or less BAREFOOT in Siberian winter -- at night -- in the dark -- "running / walking down a rocky hillside; and some of the injuries are consistent with falling and or tripping over said rocks. I also note that Nigel's post of a photo of the area, made around the day the tent was found, shows that the area was trampled by the search party, obliterating much of the foot-step evidence. I, for one, think they ran like hell, at least for an initial distance (written reports and diagrams show they began to diverge and then reorganized -- but they also ran in and over each other's foot steps -- confusing the evidence. Perhaps they slowed down after an initial sprint.
John Wolfe
01-09-2017 18:38 (GMT)
Hi Anna, re: your question about continuous stormy conditions -- Siberian Winter is not mild -- the conditions are very windy and very cold and this can prevent the snow from accumulating on the hill-side, making the site look AS IF winter is mild -- but recall that in the far less windy ravine below the hill were many meters of snow accumulation. This is note worthy in itself as the tent site is above the tree-line yet at a very low altitude (at about 800 meters) it is literally too windy for trees there -- for comparison, in the place where I live the tree-line extends up to 3,000 meters (ten thousand feet) but it is much warmer and less windy. (sorry to use the word "hill", but I live around real mountains that are many times the height of the "mountains" there -- these were hills and not mountains -- the valley floor, where my family lives is at twice the height of those Siberian "mountains" So yes there is a Winter season of snow-storms with high winds and yes your question is a good one (I cite these reports to demonstrate that ball-lightning is seen, on multiple dates, in that area by multiple, independent, witnesses -- during the winter months -- this is important, as it establishes that these glowing balls of light which sometimes explode is not imaginary but real phenomena - which other people see on other dates and in other, nearby, places)
remember: no one knows what BL is -- there are many theories and hypotheses -- but no one has a good idea about how BL can be created in a lab, or studied. This is quite a problem, as the only way to study BL is to go where it was seen on multiple occasions and hope to see it / study it --- so far no one has done this. This, for instance is why I am so interested in that "abandoned village" the hikers photographed -- photos show newly constructed buildings 1/2 BUILT (not falling down) and then abandoned -- WHY ? -- was it a bad economic decision? -- or were there other reasons? -- such as ball lightning occurrence in the Winter months (we also do not know for certain that the village was permanently abandoned as I point out that in one photo you can see what looks very much like running electric lights on a pole -- street lights -- perhaps the village was only left for the Winter -- note that in another photo someone is holding up a drilling core)
re: could there be another phenomena that is "mistaken for ball lightning"? --- however, since we know very little about BL -- there could be several manifestations which appear to be BL, but are either not BL, or that BL comes in different forms. (some explode, some do not, this is kind of like regular lightning, which comes in different forms but is not St. Elmo's Fire, which also is definitely NOT ball lightning. However all three are related in that they are all natural atmospheric electrical phenomena. ALSO: recent studies and observations show that lightning occurs fairly often (2-3 million lightning strikes per day for the Earth) and that BL occurs about once for every million regular lightning strikes (or, several times per day - somewhere on Earth) That is why I am interested in the tragedy here -- that is, trying to identify places where there are an anomalous number of BL sightings) (more on this later)
Loose-Cannon
01-09-2017 17:28 (GMT)
"Q. So if they were forced out of the tent in their socks by murderers why did they let them light a fire? Q. Why did they let them build a den for four people? Q. Why didn't they kill the last three? Q. Why did the (approx) 30 strong investigation team not recognise signs of their footprints, ski tracks.? Q. Why would the group cut several slits on one side of the tent but not the other side? Q. What's the explanation for the SZ photos? Random damage that looks exactly like an eye witness account? Q. Why did an experienced police detective not continue with this theory if it is so MUCH more feasible? Q. Why did the pathologist say that the ravine4 injuries were only consistent with the energy in a car crash or bomb shockwave?"
These are just 'unknowns', and only really apply to the 'outsiders' murder theory. In my opinion, the list of unknowns and wild explanations for them in reference to the BL theory are in much more abundance.... But its still one of my favorite. =)
Sandy
01-09-2017 17:06 (GMT)
So if this BL allegedly terrorized them to leave the tent without winter attire & basically go commit suicide, why would they WALK downhill? Common sense would show that they would have RAN. The only thing that makes good sense in that they "walked', taking their time, would be if they were forced out by men with firearms.
I think the theory of Ball Lightening is as absurd & ridiculous as some of you find the murder theory. I don't understand how anyone can actually consider the lives of 9 people being killed by ball lightening/fire balls. Why so many various forms of injuries then? I would think the BL would have "killed" them all in the same way or similar. The BL theory is as stupid to me as some of you feel the murder by humans theory.
Nigel Evans
01-09-2017 16:51 (GMT)
@KMM - do you understand the difference between sentient and non sentient?
KMM
01-09-2017 16:35 (GMT)
Nigel Evans 01-09-2017 11:23 (GMT) Note to those who hold with the murdered theory, this image shows the stupidity of the proposition, that after being chased from the tent by armed men to die in the cold they then lit a fire down there "but behind the cedar to hide it"... https://www.aquiziam.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/dyatlov_pass_the_flight.jpg .
By your own reasoning : after being totally panicked enough to WALK away for a mile, you are going to light a fire so the BL can come chase you around ?
Nigel Evans
01-09-2017 16:31 (GMT)
@KMM - err the robbers didn't do any robbing...
Nigel Evans
01-09-2017 16:30 (GMT)
@LC - ok so answer my post - 31-08-2017 17:33 (GMT)
KMM
01-09-2017 16:22 (GMT)
Nigel Evans 01-09-2017 11:23 (GMT) Note to those who hold with the murdered theory, this image shows the stupidity of the proposition, that after being chased from the tent by armed men to die in the cold they then lit a fire down there "but behind the cedar to hide it"... https://www.aquiziam.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/dyatlov_pass_the_flight.jpg .
Your not going to stand around and FREEZE while waiting for a group of robbers to leave. What they thought they were, robbers
Loose-Cannon
01-09-2017 15:55 (GMT)
You know what happens everyday?... murder.
Its not a super rare phenomenon requiring fantastical explanations. Its just not as mystical as a fireball.
Loose-Cannon
01-09-2017 15:49 (GMT)
Laff...
I think its completely up in the air and could go any which way. I would have to lean more heavily on the 'internal' theory rather then strangers from outside the group killing them.
Hi John.There is something I don`t understand.I read that the Bl is normally associated with storms or snowstorms in winter,but apparently witnesses have reported seeing them for 2 months in the area.Was it constantly stormy in this area?Is there another phenomenon that could be mistaken for a BL?And also if the ones who went outside to relieve themselves were killed by the BL,I don`t see any reason for the rest of the group to drag them far away and leave them under the cedar.They could leave the bodies there and run for their lives.What was the special about Dyatlov and the rest of the group and why the BL targeted exactly them?No one was injured by it the next 2 months ,even though there were reports of people who encountered them.I just don`t understand why.
Nigel Evans
01-09-2017 11:23 (GMT)
Note to those who hold with the murdered theory, this image shows the stupidity of the proposition, that after being chased from the tent by armed men to die in the cold they then lit a fire down there "but behind the cedar to hide it"... https://www.aquiziam.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/dyatlov_pass_the_flight.jpg .
Nigel Evans
01-09-2017 11:11 (GMT)
#27 is erroneous because that photo below is given as #26 by Oss.
Nigel Evans
01-09-2017 11:01 (GMT)
@Lightning - can't find any mention of it in Svetlana Oss's book (i can search it as it's the kindle edition)
What did come to my attention (in her book) is this - https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Y_IKDYrZANI/maxresdefault.jpg . N.B. this isn't recorded on this site and i'm guessing #27 is erroneous. Looks like Slobodin got a shot in as well as YK. Nothing like as good as SZ's, which strengthens my view that his camera or training was way above amateur status.
Also she states that there are about 30 images with nothing on them other than what is seen when magnified as in SZ's photos. So it would seem this set came from more than one camera and that they were clicking away.
Lightning
01-09-2017 09:14 (GMT)
Anyone know what kind of camera SZ had which he was wearing time of his death? I know that the other cameras were "Zorkis".
Nigel Evans
01-09-2017 08:30 (GMT)
@KMM - "Nigel Evans - What you post is gleaned from that "Magic Wand"".
Absolutely, as said before the luxury of the BL theory is that it can easily be made to fit the facts because little is known about it. However the little that is known about it does create a theory that works. It seems to target metal and people and can burn and can explode. So it gives you a complete solution to the DPI and then there are the photos, eye witness reports... Now that doesn't mean it's the only solution. But what's fascinating about the DPI is that all of the other candidates are stumped by the existence of the fire, which rules out a sentient threat (imo).
@John / Anna - yes the slits are interesting. Particularly if the set of photos is genuine (i.e. material not removed by authorities), they cut slits but didn't take more pictures except for one (SZ) and possibly another (YK). I don't think the damage to the tent from the slits is a big issue, they were used to repairing it and this was a historical moment (photographing BL for the first time ever afaik). Then something happened and they immediately exited. Imo that something might be connected to the 2Yuris. They seem to have died at least an hour before they were turned by others but they have much more frostbite.. This is hard to explain. Possible answers are (1) that they spent too long up the tree exposed to the wind chill or (2) it wasn't frostbite but charring from burns.
John Wolfe
01-09-2017 07:27 (GMT)
lastly -- it is very likely that the Mansi had found the tent (and maybe some hikers?) (they had a hunting trail just above the tree line) looked around but did and said nothing -- Dyatlov's jacket, with contents undisturbed, and working flashlight were found outside the tent-- remember they were religious and superstitious about the gods of the mountains there, who, Mansi history tells us, had killed a party of hunters some time in the past and that they had named the two mountains "Dead Mountain" and "Don't Go There" -- seems prophetic, or maybe they had seen the exploding balls of light before -- these two mountains were not considered "holy", but rather, "cursed"
John Wolfe
01-09-2017 07:09 (GMT)
So - getting back to the hikers:
In the last post I left them in the tent after something bad happened -- something bad which caused injury (and maybe death) to some and frightened the hell out of the rest. So scared that rather than go outside again, they would slit their only tent to see if it had gone away, and how far. But it didn't -- or more likely, there was more than one ball of exploding light; and it (or those) hadn't exploded but was (were) hovering around (I've actually interviewed two hikers from the USA who were in two side by side one man tents and caught in a lightning storm at a campsite and they reported that after about 15 minutes of regular lightning it got quiet and they were then aware of some balls of light hovering around the area where they were, they could hear a humming-buzzing sound and the light kept moving. Lucky for them, they did not move or try to get out of their tents, and the balls of light left the area) But this was not what happened to the 9 hikers -- and it was THEN that a ball of exploding light (the ball lightning I keep pushing) entered the tent; most likely attracted to the metal stove. (in videos of what looks like ball lightning it sometimes goes straight for metal - usually an electric power line, or a line to ground) Already scared to death, the hikers do what seals their fate -- they slash their way out the far end of the tent (the other slashes were done by the search party in an attempt to find -?bodies ?) and run as fast as they could barefoot down a rocky and frozen Siberian hillside. The wind was most likely pushing them downhill, from the back, as the small drifts show in all the search party photos seen so far, AND in the two videos I've posted of winter-time conditions. (see my post for 08-14-2017 22:54 (GMT) below) The only problem is that they ran toward the down hill side of their tent site and the stash of extra clothing and food was the other way and about the same distance. I think that once committed to escaping the balls of light nothing else mattered -- it was run away or die there -- what would you do? -- I think I would do the same. Following whoever was in the lead. Dyatlov ? Only then would the hikers realize that they had to warm up and / or get back. In the end, neither was possible and all were dead by daylight. A burned out flashlight was found about half-way down the slope -- a marker to return by? -- and three of the nine were found in a position that indicated they would have returned to the tent, if they could and / or if the balls of exploding light had left. We will never know.
John Wolfe
01-09-2017 06:10 (GMT)
--sorry for the double post -- the "I'm not a robot" box kept telling me there was an "invalid verification code" !
John Wolfe
01-09-2017 06:05 (GMT)
Hi Anna, you're quite right about those little slits at the top of their tent -- they wouldn't do this just to view balls of light -- not the FIRST time anyway; but after something bad happened, so bad they needed to see if it left, or not, and how far away it was. They wanted to keep an eye on it -- I'm betting their injured friends were still outside, laying either dead or alive, in the snow.
And remember from my previous posts that balls of light have been reported on various nights by various search party and military members -- over a two month period ! Lots of people saw balls of light, and some heard them explode !
We have the reports of the first of the search party to get to the tent, that there was a line of urine, from someone relieving themselves just one meter outside the tent -- I think he/she saw balls of light and called out to the eight inside to come look at the strange lights -- some brought their cameras out to photograph the balls, others just watched. In fact this exact same behavior was reported by one of the parties who reported the balls of light -- they said they were outside and saw the balls and called out to their friends in their tent to come out and look. (they were unharmed, but amazed by the sight) So I would say it is likely the 9 hikers did so also. Only that time, the balls came toward them (ball lightning is unaffected by wind but might be effected by gravity or terrain) The military reported the balls moving downhill. (toward them)
Getting back to the hikers -- some of whom were looking and others were photographing the balls of light. Krivonischenko's camera, #33 of the second roll, called "film no, 1" (was found in camera) shows what looks like a ball of light very close and moving quickly toward the camera -- thus it is blurred and out of focus. Something happened, because those films have 36 frames, he could have taken a few more pictures, but did not. Zolotaryov's camera also had three photos of what could be called balls of light -- in one the ball is very close and you can see what might be the tops of three or (4 or 5 overlapping) heads called frame #1 but I think the order was confused as the camera / film was damaged (when Z. was found, his camera was found around his neck on its strap) frames # 7 and 8 show what looks like the same ball of light (same shape) getting closer. I think #1 is after #7 and 8 and is the same ball of light. This is also his last photo taken -- something happened, or he would have taken more.
Remember - ball lightning can explode with great acoustic force -- if it went off that close to the hiker's heads it might account for the skull damage seen. And that might also chase the remaining half-clothed hikers back into the tent. Leaving the injured outside? or dragging them with them back to the supposed safety of the tent. SO THEN THEY HAD TO SEE IF THE BALLS OF LIGHT HAD LEFT THE AREA -- or not. Did the ball continue on down the slope? -- or were there more than one ball ? We only know that slits were reported only on one side of the tent (same side as the large top to bottom slits) -- on the downhill side.
John Wolfe
01-09-2017 06:05 (GMT)
Hi Anna, you're quite right about those little slits at the top of their tent -- they wouldn't do this just to view balls of light -- not the FIRST time anyway; but after something bad happened, so bad they needed to see if it left, or not, and how far away it was. They wanted to keep an eye on it -- I'm betting their injured friends were still outside, laying either dead or alive, in the snow.
And remember from my previous posts that balls of light have been reported on various nights by various search party and military members -- over a two month period ! Lots of people saw balls of light, and some heard them explode !
We have the reports of the first of the search party to get to the tent, that there was a line of urine, from someone relieving themselves just one meter outside the tent -- I think he/she saw balls of light and called out to the eight inside to come look at the strange lights -- some brought their cameras out to photograph the balls, others just watched. In fact this exact same behavior was reported by one of the parties who reported the balls of light -- they said they were outside and saw the balls and called out to their friends in their tent to come out and look. (they were unharmed, but amazed by the sight) So I would say it is likely the 9 hikers did so also. Only that time, the balls came toward them (ball lightning is unaffected by wind but might be effected by gravity or terrain) The military reported the balls moving downhill. (toward them)
Getting back to the hikers -- some of whom were looking and others were photographing the balls of light. Krivonischenko's camera, #33 of the second roll, called "film no, 1" (was found in camera) shows what looks like a ball of light very close and moving quickly toward the camera -- thus it is blurred and out of focus. Something happened, because those films have 36 frames, he could have taken a few more pictures, but did not. Zolotaryov's camera also had three photos of what could be called balls of light -- in one the ball is very close and you can see what might be the tops of three or (4 or 5 overlapping) heads called frame #1 but I think the order was confused as the camera / film was damaged (when Z. was found, his camera was found around his neck on its strap) frames # 7 and 8 show what looks like the same ball of light (same shape) getting closer. I think #1 is after #7 and 8 and is the same ball of light. This is also his last photo taken -- something happened, or he would have taken more.
Remember - ball lightning can explode with great acoustic force -- if it went off that close to the hiker's heads it might account for the skull damage seen. And that might also chase the remaining half-clothed hikers back into the tent. Leaving the injured outside? or dragging them with them back to the supposed safety of the tent. SO THEN THEY HAD TO SEE IF THE BALLS OF LIGHT HAD LEFT THE AREA -- or not. Did the ball continue on down the slope? -- or were there more than one ball ? We only know that slits were reported only on one side of the tent (same side as the large top to bottom slits) -- on the downhill side.
Loose-Cannon
01-09-2017 03:07 (GMT)
"I only suggest you read it because you have a more flexible mind on the matter and would have a good interpretation of what you read -- I'm doing the same"
Translation...
You and I are good at picking out only the parts we like and ignoring the rest in an attempt to push a biased agenda. =)
KMM
01-09-2017 00:04 (GMT)
Nigel Evans - What you post is gleaned from that "Magic Wand"
KMM
31-08-2017 23:54 (GMT)
If the avalanche is a phenomenon although relatively rare, but still more or less familiar to most people, then other natural-natural versions appeal to such natural anomalies, of which few people know at all. The authors are inventing a kind of "magic wand", which is arbitrarily endowed with special inexplicable properties that affect people in the way they want. Each time the name of the "magic wand" changes, but the mechanism for constructing the version remains the same - the element affects people, depriving them of all reason and will power, causing hikers to panic and run out of the tent undressed and stripped, looking for salvation in the cold. As a natural phenomenon, which is the impetus of dramatic events, these versions include infrasound, winter thunderstorm, ball lightning, and so on. Phenomena. The infrasound was born, ostensibly, when the remains of the rocks were blowing out at the pass, now named Diatlov, by a strong wind. The winter storm was formed at the junction of two atmospheric fronts over the Ural Mountains. And where the ball lightning came from, even the authors themselves do not know, because the nature of the origin of ball moths is unknown to anyone at all.
Anna Yordanova
31-08-2017 23:54 (GMT)
If they wanted to observe the glowing balls outside the tent,why they had to slit it?Couldn`t they just go outside using the entrance?I don`t think that they were so dumb stupid to cut their only shelter just to see some glowing balls in the sky.They could easily go outside and Zolotarev could easily take pictures of the phenomenon and show them to everyone in Sverdlovsk.I don`t think that they have been so stupid to run outside ,barefoot and poorly dressed just to see a glowing ball in the sky.To me this doesn`t make any sense.I am not a crime scene investigator or pathologist but from what i`ve seen from the autopsy report ,I can say that this poor people have been beaten and tortured ,not by BL,but by other people.Lets take Slobodin for example;according to the injuries he had,he`s been falling constantly on his face hitting it onto a rock!he never fell backwards.Because somebody was hitting him constantly on the head and this wasn`t the BL.The only injuries caused by BL,that I have read about are second and third degree burns.I know that the bolt lightning will leave specific marks on your skin(I am not sure about the BL)but the bodies of the victims did not have any of them.The only burns have been noticed on the bodies,found near the fire.I am absolutely sure,that the pathologist would`ve noticed if the victims have been struck by a lightning.
Nigel Evans
31-08-2017 23:15 (GMT)
@Sandy - fails at point 1. This is the same as Mikey's from memory. You do not flee from armed men on a mountain at night and then light a fire 1500m away downhill in a snow covered forest. From memory they're supposed to have lit the fire behind the cedar in order to hide it. Completely stupid argument. Absolutely utterly stupid.
@KMM - "Who is this eye witness ? Someone miles away saying he saw a light in the sky 3 months ago is hardly a eye witness " You know, it would be a good idea if you read just some of what i've posted.... :- Try post - 16-08-2017 13:33 (GMT)
@John - many thanks, glad of your support.
John Wolfe
31-08-2017 22:06 (GMT)
two more quotes from section 10 of that book:
"As an example, we quote one of these noteworthy documents, written by the officer Alexander Savkin himself, the oldest of the respondents: "February 17, 1959, at 6:40 am, while on duty, (observed - A. R.) on the southern side (sky - AR) appeared a ball of bright white light, which was periodically enveloped in thick fog. Inside this cloud there was a brightly glowing dot the size of an asterisk. Moving in the direction of the northern direction, the ball was visible for 8-10 minutes. " As you can see, the content part of this not entirely literate text can be reduced to one sentence: at 06:40 on February 17 in the sky something shone for about 8-10 minutes and moved in the north direction. I must say that the duration of the glow of the mysterious object, named by Savkin, turned out to be minimal. The remaining servicemen indicated intervals of somewhat longer duration (maximum 15 minutes). "
and this: "The testimony of Aleksei Konstantinovich Krivonishchenko narrows the fact that the most significant part of them is to be seen without abbreviations. So, the father of the deceased claimed: "After the burial of my son, on March 9, 1959, at my apartment there were students at the dinner, participants in the search of nine hikers, including those hikers who were on a trek in the north in the end of January-early February , Somewhat to the south of Mount Otorten.There were at least two such groups, at least the participants in the two groups told that they observed on February 1, 1959, in the evening, striking their light phenomenon north of the location of these groups: an extremely bright glow of which A rocket or a projectile. It was so strong that one of the groups, already in the tent and getting ready to sleep, was alarmed by this glow, left the tent and observed this phenomenon.After a while they heard a sound effect similar to a strong thunder from afar. "
John Wolfe
31-08-2017 21:57 (GMT)
apparently that death on the trail post is the entire book - which was never translated (except by google )
John Wolfe
31-08-2017 21:07 (GMT)
sorry -- I'm dyslexic -- 02-16-1016
John Wolfe
31-08-2017 21:05 (GMT)
one last note - Nigel -- you stated the big picture on 02-24-2016. So far no one has convinced me of otherwise.
John Wolfe
31-08-2017 21:01 (GMT)
Nigel -- still working of that death on the trail story (see previous post) -- its VERY hot and humid where I am so I am staying indoors as much as possible for about the last two months -- reading things on the internet -- I only suggest you read it because you have a more flexible mind on the matter and would have a good interpretation of what you read -- I'm doing the same -- that is, not buying into the interpretation of the events by that Russian author but putting my own SPIN on it ......... and speaking of spinning -- my real interest is in spinning magnetic fields (which) can go through closed windows without breaking them but still knock down stone walls. ALSO: been reading about lightning for a few years now and wonder if BL is in reality the terminal end of one of the ion streamers that create the regular lightning we are all familiar with. Imagine a high-pressure fire-hose with no one holding it -- it would fly around in a semi-random pattern (semi, because its attached to a hose which is a thing with two ends, one fixed.
John Wolfe
31-08-2017 20:47 (GMT)
the 10th page of that death on the trail story starts out with this reporting of balls of light:
"On March 31, a very remarkable event happened-all the members of the search group who were in the camp in the Lozva Valley saw a UFO. Valentin Yakimenko, a participant in those events in his memoirs, described the incident very broadly: "It was still dark in the early morning. The day-old Victor Meshcheryakov left the tent and saw a glowing ball moving across the sky. I woke everyone up. 20 minutes saw the movement of the ball (or disk), until he disappeared behind the slope of the mountain. They saw him on the southeast of the tent. He moved in the northern direction. The phenomenon stirred everyone up. We were sure that the death of the Dyatlovites is somehow connected with it. "
KMM
31-08-2017 20:23 (GMT)
What's the explanation for the SZ photos? Random damage that looks exactly like an eye witness account?
Damaged film that laid in snow and water for 3 months. Who is this eye witness ? Someone miles away saying he saw a light in the sky 3 months ago is hardly a eye witness
Sandy
31-08-2017 20:07 (GMT)
@Nigel:
I have copied & pasted your ques. & answered them as best I could. Sorry so long. I only actually read a few of the chapters pertaining to the murders. I skimmed most of it. You really need to read a few chapters yourself. Trust me, it answers more than it doesn't. Plus it's entirely POSSIBLE. The only thing not explained is why were the last 4 an orange color? I read on other sites that a couple of them actuall had GREY hair? Is there truth to this? If they were buried under 12 ft. of snow for 3 months, they couldn't have been burnt by the sun & elements. I'd think the snow would have preserved the bodies.
Anyway, here goes.
Q. So if they were forced out of the tent in their socks by murderers why did they let them light a fire? Q. Why did they let them build a den for four people? Q. Why didn't they kill the last three? Q. Why did the (approx) 30 strong investigation team not recognise signs of their footprints, ski tracks.? Q. Why would the group cut several slits on one side of the tent but not the other side? Q. What's the explanation for the SZ photos? Random damage that looks exactly like an eye witness account? Q. Why did an experienced police detective not continue with this theory if it is so MUCH more feasible? Q. Why did the pathologist say that the ravine4 injuries were only consistent with the energy in a car crash or bomb shockwave?
1. The murderers didn't know they were going to light a fire or even that they had matches. They eventually became aware of this by seeing the fire & that's when they realized it wouldn't be as simple as all 9 dying soon of hypothermia. That was the intent at first. Declothe them & send them out into the cold so they could all freeze to death. But when the fire was observed, the murderers walked down the slope & that's when one of them murdered Yuri D. & Yuri K. was still in the tree, not wanting to come down & be massacred himself, but his frozen hands gave way & he fell, causing great injury to himself & the murderers left him alone, knowing he'd die soon & they did not need to force his demise.
2. Again, they didn't "let" them build a den specifically for 4 people. The murderers were busy going thru the tent, maybe reading the diaries, going thru their cameras, etc. & everything in that tent with a very fine tooth comb. Much time was spent there going over everything. They weren't aware that 4 of them would be so resourceful, much tougher to die & would build a snow den to help keep them alive. After they realized this would be tougher than they thought, & other means would have to be met, the murderers crushed Yuri D's chest by pressing violently on his chest cavity, causing the grey fluid on his cheek.
His body was moved some time after the blood stopped circulating. The other Yuri K. they walked away & did not have to do anything further to him. He would die soon enough. But now they've realized that the rest of the hikers were no longer at the cedar & became aware of the 4 in the ravine doing very well to ward off the cold.
Note: SZ was never a part of lighting the fire. He knew right away the seriousness of what was going on. He attempted with words to stop them from starting the fire, but both Yuri's were the lightest dressed, almost naked & they did not think this was anymore than the robbers taking whatever they wanted, then they'd leave & then all of them would return to the tent. They figured all they had to do was keep a fire going to sustain them staying alive until they could return to the tent. That after the robbers were finished they would all return to the tent then. There were NO signs that SZ was involved with the fire & no burn marks anywhere on him or his clothing.
3. What last 3 are you referring to that they didn't kill? It's said that as Zena was making progress returning to the tent, she was bashed violently with a baton like instrument, injurying her immediately, slowing her pace & this caused death by hypothermia much quicker. So they even had a hand in murdering Zena.
Those 4 ravine were all murdered violently. Also, R. Slobodin had brain trauma by a foreign blunt object (autopsy). Murder.
Is your 3 that they didn't kill, the 3 that were returning to the tent? Zena, Igor & Rustem? I covered Zena & Igor didn't need murdered, he would die quickly of hypothermia & wasn't dressed well at all.
4. Special Forces know how to brush away & cover up footprints if need be. The murderers were thought to perhaps wear snowshoes which doesn't leave prints like bare feet/socks would. Where are the hikers' footprints leading directly from the tent down the slope until we see the area where their footprints can been seen? We know that 9 people walked from their tent directly down slope, yet there are no footprints to be seen coming directly out of the tent & down the slope until those footprints that were left are discovered. There ARE ways to brush, sweep, eliminate etc. footprints made in snow that need to be gone.
5. A few of the slits looking down the slope could have been made by the murderers as they spent quite a bit of time in the tent going thru everything & wanted to make sure the hikers didn't all return & sneak up on them. The murderers also cut huge slits in the tent to ruin it just in case any of the 9 hikers managed to return. The tent was pretty much useless after the criminals finished slicing it up.
6. I can't recall about the SZ camera photos. I'm sure it's addressed somewhere.
7. The Russian police simply hushed it all up as they were forced to do by someone(s). They wanted the case closed asap & it was. For 3 years no one could travel that part of the Ural Mountains & all the file pieces were hidden away from public view for about 30 years. To this day, there are still missing papers and documents that will never see the light of day. The Russian authorities did not have a choice. They were commanded by higher ups (maybe even by the actual murderers, to shush it all up & close the case.
8. If the Russian police were forced to not disclose any information, the case files were sealed away for a few decades & traveling there was forbidden for a few years, perhaps the pathologist was forced also or else this is what he thought had happened since he had never seen anything like this before as well. It might have been his best guess without any ex- perience with injuries such as theirs before & was simply his speculation.
** I will mention also from the book that Kolevatov had his neck snapped (deformed neck) and a violate blow behind the ear, which is a common sign of killing performed by special forces. It's very easy to twist & snap a neck in seconds if you've been taught & know exactly what to do.
Nigel Evans
31-08-2017 18:33 (GMT)
@John - i do have other things to do, why can't someone just state the big picture with this?
John Wolfe
31-08-2017 18:15 (GMT)
re: the SZ photos -- most of the spots you see in the set at the bottom of the "theories" section are just that ....... spots seen, by the way in / on many other photos in other sets; but you don't notice them because in THIS case they are greatly enlarged by an author desperate to prove a point. The only real photos are Nos. 1,7, and 8 -- which appear to be more full frame -- in the others, note the sprocket holes give you an idea just how much these are enlarged -- just to prove a silly point which makes no sense at all (ie: "These photographs are a clear indication, of fallen angel/higher level demonic involvement" ........... or, as I would suggest, common chemical degradation of the film in a harsh environment !)
John Wolfe
31-08-2017 17:54 (GMT)
thanks Nigel -- I must have mis-typed.
but -- and here's the deal -- that post: death on the trail is still worth reading -- though very difficult because of google rough translation of colloquial Russian -- what exactly is "a cowboy" ? -- a cowboy shirt? a cowboy jacket (fur lined including collar)? cowboy boots? -- I'm guessing the jacket, but ...... who knows ? It might make a difference in our interpretation of events.
PLEASE ! Nigel, read it -- I'm plowing my way through it and will take a while -- but in dealing with the rough translation -- it stimulates one to wonder about the exact meaning -- and this is useful.
and yes, those questions of yours need answering.
but, as far as I've got (section 9 - on the tent) I would say that the Russian's story so far (aren't they ALL Russian ?) is still clearly consistent with my ball lightning hypothesis.
Nigel Evans
31-08-2017 17:33 (GMT)
@Sandy - closed bracket refers to the keys you have to press for the smileys, it's for John.
"Sorry, but the Russian's theory is so MUCH more feasible than you big bright glowing fiery ball of lights." So why not give us a synopsis then? Why do i have to trawl through that crap just to argue against it? Why not give us 10 point breakdown of his theory so i/we can demolish it? Let me help you.
Q. So if they were forced out of the tent in their socks by murderers why did they let them light a fire? Q. Why did they let them build a den for four people? Q. Why didn't they kill the last three? Q. Why did the (approx) 30 strong investigation team not recognise signs of their footprints, ski tracks.? Q. Why would the group cut several slits on one side of the tent but not the other side? Q. What's the explanation for the SZ photos? Random damage that looks exactly like an eye witness account? Q. Why did an experienced police detective not continue with this theory if it is so MUCH more feasible? Q. Why did the pathologist say that the ravine4 injuries were only consistent with the energy in a car crash or bomb shockwave?
Over to you.
Sandy
31-08-2017 16:41 (GMT)
@Nigel. Why do you keep saying it's closed? Sorry, but the Russian's theory is so MUCH more feasible than you big bright glowing fiery ball of lights. It is NOT possible for any kind of ball or light to FOLLOW 9 people around, get them to leave their tent w/o attire (suicide) & ABLE to injure 4 or 5 in the way they died. Impossible for ALL that to happen with lightening, balls of any sort of light, fire, blah blah blah. Lightening, fire, light DID no murder these people.
Sandy :)
31-08-2017 16:22 (GMT)
I only skimmed most of it & concentrated on reading & trying to comprehend it all from the time they're forced to walk down the slope to when the final hiker died. To me also, I felt a lot of it meaningless, that's why I only concentrated on right b/4 & right after the hikers' tortures, terror and murders. To me, these people, esp. the final ones, were tortured for hours and hours b/4 death. These were some really evil and vile humans. Anyone that could force these young innocents out into the cold without appropriate attire, shoes, etc. is difficult for me to grasp such evil, much less the deliberate cruelty, worse, prolonged agony, torture & pain brought upon 5.
I suggest for any reader as interested as I am, and all you here, try to keep at it & read at least the events leading up to & after the "incident". That word doesn't suit what happend at all. That was no incident. I was able to understand enuf of the English version to gain the knowledge of this latest theory. I could almost vision a lot of it & to me, it just all came together & made me feel almost certain that it was entirely possible and would answer all injuries, the tent, leaving w/o proper attire/boots, etc.
This is the theory that I believe is the most accurate, entirely possible scenarios, & answers it all just about.
Those 9 hikers were forced out into the cold, made to leave their tent w/o coats, murdered and by humans, bottom line.
p.s. I believe Mikey translated the book to the English version already. I had no problem clicking on that link & reading. There is a Table of Contents that is very useful if you scroll down to the end. By using this Table of Contents, you can skip certain chapters & concentrate on what you wish to read.
Nigel Evans
31-08-2017 16:09 (GMT)
semi colon close bracket =
Nigel Evans
31-08-2017 07:49 (GMT)
@KMM - apologies, i've got too used to disagreeing with you
KMM
31-08-2017 07:03 (GMT)
John Wolfe 31-08-2017 03:23 (GMT) here's the problem with google translate:
from death on the trail (the repost by Sandy) :
" Next to the tent was a pair of skis, and opinions about the kind they were found in were subsequently divided: there are memories that the skis were standing upright, stuck in the snow at the entrance to the tent, but also a certificate according to which the skis were connected And lay on the snow. Away from the tent at a distance of about 10 m, in the snow were found things that belonged, as it turned out later, Igor Dyatlov - a pair of socks and cloth slippers, wrapped in a shirt, a cowboy. "
um ..... almost meaningless ...... so how can we draw any conclusions from THAT ??
Its is a difficult read, but so far I can understand SOME of what he's saying.
KMM
31-08-2017 06:58 (GMT)
/KMM - you don't think the tracks between the photographer and the subject rather undermine the yeti theory in favour of "going for a pee" theory?
I think "going for a pee" is probably right. As i posted, the copy of that same photo I downloaded and magnified shows the eye holes in a ski mask and i don't know any yeti that wear ski mask
Nigel Evans
31-08-2017 06:40 (GMT)
@Alphaseph/KMM - you don't think the tracks between the photographer and the subject rather undermine the yeti theory in favour of "going for a pee" theory?
Nigel Evans
31-08-2017 06:36 (GMT)
haven't figured out the winking one.
Nigel Evans
31-08-2017 06:34 (GMT)
Sorry still waking up :-
colon close bracket = colon close bracket semi colon = ; colon double close bracket =
Nigel Evans
31-08-2017 06:33 (GMT)
@John - by coincidence Paul Sagan in Ball Lightning - Paradox of Physics classifies these types of lights as "Rocket BL". i.e. forms in the clouds, travels through the sky slowly descending to earth. Maybe the DPI lights should be "Lethal Rocket Ball Lightning".
The brightness could have been from being more overhead before it travelled to the DP.
Emojis :-
close bracket = ) close bracket semi colon = ); double close bracket = ))
Nigel Evans
31-08-2017 06:22 (GMT)
@John - "Under the orders of Investigator Ivanov, an examination was made of the clothes of some expedition members, in order to determine if there was any radioactive contamination on the clothes or the dead bodies. To order a radiological examination was by no means a regular part of the investigative process. The examination was conducted on May 18, in a poorly equipped city laboratory, almost ten days after the last funeral. Vladimir Levashov, the main radiologist of Yekaterinburg, conducted the examination. Levashov’s report reads: ‘The absence of adequate equipment and the conditions in our laboratory did not allow us to conduct radiochemical and spectrometric analysis for defining the chemical structure of the emitter and measuring the energy of its emission.’ It’s possible that in May, Ivanov received some information or an order to conduct this examination. It’s also possible this was done on his own initiative. If it had been ordered from above, the examination would have taken place in the best possible laboratory, which, at that time in the USSR, would have been in a military institution. As it was, Ivanov contacted the rescue party member Albert Kikoin whose brother, Isaak Kikoin, was in charge of a national laboratory for studying radiation. Levashov was warned that this investigation was to be a matter of secrecy and he signed a document to confirm he wouldn’t release the information to anyone but the investigator. He was provided with all the clothes of Zolotaryov, Dubinina, Kolevatov, and Tibeaux, as well as bio-culture samples of their bodies. The four subjects of the examination were given numbers: No. 1: Kolevatov No. 2: Zolotaryov No. 3: Tibeaux No. 4: Dubinina The results of the radiological investigation, recorded in the criminal case report, were as follows: Clothes examined: Brown sweater taken from body No. 4: 9900 decay per minute from 150 square centimeters. Lowest part of the long johns: 5000 decay per minute from 150 square centimeters. Part of the sweater from body No. 1: 5600 decay per minute from 150 square centimeters. Upon rinsing the clothes, it was shown that contamination could be decreased by between thirty and sixty percent. The rinse was conducted in a standard test using cold running water for three hours. Conclusions: The materials examined contained radioactive traces within normal limits of the natural content for the potassium 40 isotope. Examined separately, samples of the clothes contained several higher than normal quantities of radioactive compounds that are beta emitters. It was confirmed, from tests involving rinsing with water, that the radioactive substances found displayed a tendency to be reduced by such a test. Thus their presence proves that they were not caused by a neutron stream or by the incidence of induced radioactivity, but by the contamination of radioactive beta particles. Additional questions the investigator asked Levashov were as follows: Question: Could the clothes be contaminated above the normal level by normal circumstances without having been in the presence of a radioactive-contaminated place? Answer: No Question: Were the samples examined by you contaminated? Answer: As mentioned in the conclusion, there is contamination by a radioactive substance or substances. Beta emitters were found on certain separately-sampled areas from the samples I received. For example, the sample from body no. 4 (brown sweater), at the moment of examination, had a decay rate of 9900 beta particles per minute for 150 square centimeters. After rinsing, it displayed 5200 decays of beta particles per minute from 150 sq cm. Normally, contamination of beta particles from 150 sq cm should not exceed 5000 before rinsing. After rinsing it would be expected to find a normal level equivalent to the natural base level, which is provided by natural cosmic radiation for all people in a particular place. This is the normal rule for those who work with radioactive materials. From body No. 1, the sweater yielded a display of 5600 particles per minute before rinsing, falling to 2700 particles per minute after rinsing. In your data it’s indicated that, before they were sent to us, all of these objects had been in running water for quite some time, which means they had already been rinsed. Question: Can we conclude that the clothes were contaminated by radioactive dust? Answer: Yes. Contaminated by radioactive dust which fell down from the atmosphere, or these clothes were contaminated while working with radioactive substances, or via contact. This particular contamination exceeds the normal level for people who work with radioactive substances. Question: What was the real degree of contamination of some objects considering that they were in running water for about 15 days? Answer: One can guess the contamination of some parts of the clothes was many times more. But we must also consider that the clothes could have been washed with differing degrees of intensity. May 29, 1959
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (pp. 103-106). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition. "
i magnified a copy of that photo, sure looks like you can see the eye holes in a ski mask guy is wearing
John Wolfe
31-08-2017 03:23 (GMT)
here's the problem with google translate:
from death on the trail (the repost by Sandy) :
" Next to the tent was a pair of skis, and opinions about the kind they were found in were subsequently divided: there are memories that the skis were standing upright, stuck in the snow at the entrance to the tent, but also a certificate according to which the skis were connected And lay on the snow. Away from the tent at a distance of about 10 m, in the snow were found things that belonged, as it turned out later, Igor Dyatlov - a pair of socks and cloth slippers, wrapped in a shirt, a cowboy. "
um ..... almost meaningless ...... so how can we draw any conclusions from THAT ??
If anyone can find a better translation robot please post links to it.
If you compare this picture of a gigantopithicus or also known as bigfood it is ALMOST exactly the same
John Wolfe
31-08-2017 01:21 (GMT)
please note -- I did NOT put that emoji in my post below and have no idea where it came -- its possible that the link to the death on the trail story has a virus. or maybe ......???
John Wolfe
31-08-2017 01:15 (GMT)
note to everyone: I am reading the link originally posted by Mikey on July 28 and reposted by Sandy (thanks Sandy) on August 30 (today) -- its a hard read as it uses google translate (which translates things like "search party" as "search engine" and etc.) One interesting point is that the author of this narrative of the events declares that he is forced to write in the SUBJUNCTIVE -- when interpreting -- which is to say that it is conjecture and not actually fact. He is trying to make sense (of what was originally reported) in his narrative -- just like we are doing. Russian language (and thus culture) uses the subjunctive a lot. English uses it very little. Russian is an "older" language than English in that English evolved (became "newer" to absorb other languages and their idioms and so changed from the original Latin and Celtic and became Anglo-Saxon after about 1000AD, whereas many other Indo-European languages retained the older form of the subjunctive English changed (Latin had it - A.S. did not)
here's an example: English declarative -- WHENEVER I get out of this gulag I'm going to smack that judge upside the head with his own gavel. (direct action) possible Russian subjunctive -- IF EVER I get out of this gulag I might even try to smack that judge upside the head with his own gavel. (a possible action ) (a choice among several possibilities)
I think I got that right -- I'm not an English major, but did study languages)
John Wolfe
31-08-2017 00:39 (GMT)
note to Nigel: the other hikers who saw balls of light only assumed they were looking at a rocket or other man made object -- an assumption on their part is not proof of any kind. The ball(s?) of light that group saw might have been close as they report one of their group was alarmed by the brightness -- which would NOT apply to a rocket nor ball-lightning that was far away. So assuming that THAT part of their narrative is fact, they say some sort of light fairly close, and their report of an explosion sound is consistent with BL. As I've said elsewhere, a rocket crashing or exploding would leave lots od evidence -- which no one reported seeing anywhere in the area -- not close and not far from the hikers -- od the possible thousands of metal bits, charred pieces, blast damage to the ground or trees -- no bomb, no crashed rocket, nothing.
They did report a sound like an explosion -- that's what thunder sounds like -- and BL is reported to explode with a sound like thunder.
So we have some fact (balls of bright light and thunder) and we have conjecture (a rocket)
John Wolfe
31-08-2017 00:23 (GMT)
Nigel -- I cannot find any information on a radiation test called a "water test" -- the only information that turns up is a test OF water FOR radiation. Do you have a link or can you explain?
KMM
30-08-2017 23:38 (GMT)
Sandy : "I also have the English version saved to my computer if anyone interested."
I would be interested in this.
KMM
30-08-2017 23:35 (GMT)
VERY GOOD link Sandy, I suggest people read the whole story before they go "cherry picking" small excerpts and trying to bend them to fit their agenda !
Read this - "Somewhat to the south of Mount Otorten.There were apparently at least two such groups, at least the participants in the two groups told that they observed on February 1, 1959, in the evening, striking their light phenomenon north of the location of these groups: an extremely bright glow of which A rocket or a projectile. It was so strong that one of the groups, already in the tent and getting ready to sleep, was alarmed by this glow, left the tent and observed this phenomenon.After a while they heard a sound effect similar to a strong thunder from afar."
Looks like that's it. Pity they haven't quantified "After a while".
Sandy
30-08-2017 19:30 (GMT)
Here is the link posted by Mikey here on 7/28/17. Try copying & pasting into your browser. I also have the English version saved to my computer if anyone interested.
Mikey 28-07-2017 01:12 (GMT) What a compelling story. I have read many theories here in the comment section and I may have a few myself. I am currently reading "Murders" by one A. I. Rakitin, located HERE:" https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fmurders.ru%2FDyatloff_group_1.html&edit-text=" ; In his/her synopsis and investigation it is gratifying to actually read about the investigation, the actual autopsies, and other things that are reported incorrectly on this matter. It was quite well done. Thanks for allowing me to post and I hope to join the conversation soon.
Nigel Evans
30-08-2017 18:12 (GMT)
@John - but the radiation was submitted to a water test that suggested initial levels were much higher?
Hi Nigel, for any expensive books, I always have them brought to my local library by "inter library loan" -- costs only a few US dollars -- I then photocopy the book. (don't tell them you're going to copy the book)
John Wolfe
30-08-2017 17:29 (GMT)
I should add that there is a complete radiation report somewhere -- If I can find it on the internet I'll post it -- the report shows -- CLEARLY ! -- that there were only minor and very small radiation (around 2 to 3 times background)contamination in places (sleeves, pockets, elbows of sleeves, etc., where you would expect contamination if a person worked with radioactive materials. This happens more often than you would think: I have personally seen someone mopping up a low-level radioactive spill with the maintenance mop for floors ...... probably spreading it around more than cleaning it up !
There is also a report by a woman / expert / about the cuts in the tent -- she concluded that the cuts were from the inside. (and yes, there are cuts from the outside, in the middle, done by the rescuers / searchers who cut open the tent to see if any body was inside) The woman looked at the cuts with an intent to see the fibers and how sharp was the cutting tool(s) and which way the fibers were frayed. I'll try to find this on the internet too, and post it.
Nigel Evans
30-08-2017 17:07 (GMT)
@KMM - I am just a poor boy. Though my story's seldom told, I have squandered my resistance For a pocketful of mumbles, Such are promises All lies and jest Still, a man hears what he wants to hear And disregards the rest.
@John - many of the books cataloguing BL sightings are very expensive, i can recommend Ball Lightning: Paradox of Physics by Paul Sagan. I don't agree with everything in the book but he lists 230 unpublished cases from Oak Ridge National Laboratories so all the eye witness accounts are apparently from highly credible staff. From memory the question mark on TWA800 is his idea.
John Wolfe
30-08-2017 16:49 (GMT)
here's one of the greatest problems to developing any clear hypothesis -- sites and their readers repeating nonsense as if it were proven fact -- consider this minor point from some web-site:
The hikers never reached Otorten. Rescue teams found no trace of the expedition until February 26th, when a band of volunteer searchers found the group’s tent in the snow, collapsed, crumpled, and slit open with razor blades. Five of the bodies were found nearby with the aid of footprints, but the remaining four members of the expedition were nowhere to be found for months.
Oh ? ........ five of the bodies were "nearby" ....... and, the tent was slit open with "RAZOR BLADES" ???? all evidence suggested that there were bad slits from duller knives and perhaps one sharp knife. So think, if someone buys into that razor blade info, the story changes and the reasoning about the DPI is effected. Worse -- someone repeats it as fact and now we have a completely different story. Might as well claim there were yeti foot-prints which were covered up by the KGB and were never photographed as part of a secret Soviet plot to test weapons on expensive students of physics and the sciences in conjunction with the American CIA and space aliens - who used special acoustic blasters to blast them out of their tent -- so their specially trained black-belt experts could beat them half to death, strip them of their protective clothing and then chase them at gun-point down into a ravine so they could freeze to death and thus make it look like a normal / accidental hiking disaster ................. or maybe not ........... maybe the Voguls did it !
Anyway -- I'm convinced that this was just a sad but natural disaster which might have been prevented if only we (they) knew more about ball-lightning.
question - can a BL lightning rod be made and what would it look like ? (considering we don't know what BL really is) ? I'm pretty much done trying to figure out what happened at DPI and am going on to study BL some more.
KMM
30-08-2017 16:46 (GMT)
"However what can be said with full legal rigour is that unless the SZ photos are intelligent fakes then it was there that night and it is THE MOST PROBABLE REASON BY FAR for their rapid withdrawal to the forest."
Which photo's are that ? The defects and dots on the negatives or the 3 gloved fingertips ? That camera laid in the snow and water for 3 months, hardly what I would call "PROBABLE REASON", more like "grasping at straws"
Nigel Evans
30-08-2017 08:27 (GMT)
@KMM - "Really grasping at straws there. "
Not really, i guess it depends on what we're doing posting on this site. Personally i'm kicking some footballs around the DPI hopefully with like minded individuals. Maybe you're trying to establish some legal proof and need to rigorously tear ideas down. If so best of luck.
@Sandy - I'll restate for the nth time that the BL theory for the DPI has several versions and the minimal case is that all BL does is scare them away from the tent having photographed it. It doesn't have to directly kill them, they can die from accidents connected with the microwave field that created the BL. There are also other scenarios where BL is more involved in their deaths. We'll never know. However what can be said with full legal rigour is that unless the SZ photos are intelligent fakes then it was there that night and it is THE MOST PROBABLE REASON BY FAR for their rapid withdrawal to the forest.
It remains a mystery folks. We each have our own thoughts on what happened, and i guess we can agree to disagree. I'm of the opinion there is more known then we are aware of, maybe someday it will come out.
Loose-Cannon
30-08-2017 02:03 (GMT)
Nigel... Please see post 26-08-2017 14:41
:^)
John Wolfe
30-08-2017 01:40 (GMT)
Hi Sandy, I have tried to find any link to a (book? movie?/blog?/etc.) called "Death on the Trail". What is it? do you have a link?
and yes, I too have noticed that there seems to be no recent case of multiple deaths from OBVSERVED ball lightning -- there are many cases on a yearly basis where people under a tree or elsewhere are killed by regular lightning. Most accounts come from a time (one or two or more hundred years ago) -- what has changed is that now the world has most of its population living around / near strung electrical lines and other metal structures. If you google ball lightning videos you will see several videos which the apparent BL is running along a power line. Also, there are still many reports of BL seen -- or at least what looks like BL.
John Wolfe
30-08-2017 01:24 (GMT)
KMM -- your comment about motorcycles -- makes the most sense -- can't see over a hill or around the curve (usually can't see the distracted driver in your lane, coming at you) -- THIS kind of reasoning is what I'm trying to get at: no yeti, no BL, no missile test, no space alien, just a place not to be careless.
Nigel -- OK, I get it -- except that those cells are resistant to UV radiation induced apoptosis -- sort of -- what the article says is that they are very quick to repair their DNA -- and this does not apply to other cells (like yours or mine) just these bacteria cells -- which still get damaged by UV, but then repair themselves instead of dying. The UV doesn't switch off cell apoptosis -- it is never triggered by UV.
I have a question about one of the photos:
does anyone see / or mention that it looks like the power is still on the (street) lights at the right side of the photo? see:
and does that imply that the village was just very recently "abandoned" -- see my comments elsewhere -- I think the abandoned village holds some answer to this whole incident.
KMM
29-08-2017 21:46 (GMT)
I've read that a disproportionate of motorcyclist fatalities occur on the brow of hills or mountain passes. One of the theories is lightning strike. Could be other electrical phenomena.
Where do you get this stuff from ? Could be they didn't see what was over the hill? Mountain passes are dangerous for vehicles period, you don't need BL to blame. Really grasping at straws there.
Nigel Evans
29-08-2017 21:32 (GMT)
@John - "Hi Nigel, cell apoptosis means programmed cell death", yes that's why i googled it... Cancer is a cell with apoptosis switched off. If UV could switch it back on then you've beaten cancer.
A. the ufo community think it's happening but is suppressed
?? now that is some evidence there !
John Wolfe
29-08-2017 21:11 (GMT)
Hi Nigel, cell apoptosis means programmed cell death -- its how we renew our body's cells. UV induced cell apoptosis is NOT reversible -- once a cell is dead ....... its DEAD, DEAD, DEAD ....... kind of like the nine hikers. That phony's web-site suggests something like the following: 1) I shoot you with a big gun and you die; 2) after you die, I then shoot you with a really small gun ....... and you come back to life
I suggest you give THAT the smell test -- does that make sense to you?
This same reasoning applies to the DPI and whether they were killed by some highly unusual but natural phenomena or by some secret Soviet plot (or Yeti, or space aliens, or LSD, or drunkenness, or the KGB, or even American secret agents -- what the heck, I'll even allow that British agent 007 ......)
for what its worth -- here's a good article on UV induced cell death:
@Sandy - imo it's just natural. If you're hit by a powerful bolt of lightning it can strip you down to your underwear and throw you up to 30 feet resulting in bad bruises, broken limbs and burns. If the victim is female the police almost always begin by suspecting sexual violence. I've read that a disproportionate of motorcyclist fatalities occur on the brow of hills or mountain passes. One of the theories is lightning strike. Could be other electrical phenomena.
Sandy
29-08-2017 20:17 (GMT)
Thanks Nigel for the links. I came upon the human mutilation in Mexico not long ago and this is the same link that I had read about. I would say that poor man was NOT murdered by humans. This would have to be aliens of some sort, especially to have the suction knowledge of removing organs. Scary.
Nigel Evans
29-08-2017 19:30 (GMT)
@Sandy - Loose-Cannon's #2 favourite theory is BL, but no one knows what his #1 is ....
It's my belief that this will in time be attributed to a family of phenomena that includes BL.
KMM
29-08-2017 18:58 (GMT)
SANDY : finally, a voice of reason
Sandy
29-08-2017 18:11 (GMT)
Forgot to add that my #2 theory had been the Yeti also.
Sandy
29-08-2017 18:09 (GMT)
If you never hear from me again....you'll know I got hit by a BL on my way home from work.....
Ya gotta watch out for those big orbs of bright light and big balls of fire that's hovering in the skies ya know...
Sandy
29-08-2017 18:05 (GMT)
It's funny, but after I read a lot of the Russian author's 'Death on the Trail', I don't feel the curiosity about wanting to know what happened to them. It's been about 3 or 4 yrs. now since I stumbled upon this great mystery & I feel certain, at least, that the 9 were murdered by humans, forced to walk single file down the slope by evil men that had firearms. They were left to, hopefully, all die quietly in a couple hours of hypothermia. End of problem for somebodies. When that failed, they felt forced to brutally murder the rest & used forms of karate like hand to hand combat to confuse and essentially, get away with. It worked too.
I can appreciate all the other theories but folks, at least for me, I believe it's been solved and those 9 hikers were murdered.by.other.humans. I hope there's a special place in Hell for these evil animals.
The 2nd great mystery is the 1945 (5) missing Sodder children from Fayetteville, NC. I'm still stumped on that one & fear there will never be an answer to that one. It's very chilling and clung to me like the Dyatlov hikers' fates.
p.s. Ever wonder WHY a ball of light of any sort has NEVER ever killed a large group of people since? Anywhere? Anytime? It is impossible for ANY kind of BL or its cousins, to kill 9 people on a snowy slope with a forest of trees below with injuries, hypothermia, etc. etc. etc. as had happened with the Dyatlov 9. IMPOSSIBLE. A BL did not kill any of the hikers.
But, it's your imaginations, so....carry on. I agree with Loose Cannon now too. I understand his sarcasm and side with him on the BL theory. Happy Trails
Nigel Evans
29-08-2017 10:08 (GMT)
@John - i'd sgree we can't make too much from a yellow filter.
The UV thing is interesting though, if you irradiate living cells with UV at a strength that kills them, they are now dead and will stay dead forever. Unless you irradiate them again with weaker UV, then a decent fraction of them will burst back into life. Afaik there is no explanation for this.
I was going to finish with "Can't see it being a cure for cancer though" but thought i'd google "uv apoptosis" first. Some interesting results if very technical.
John Wolfe
29-08-2017 04:39 (GMT)
Hi Anna, thanks for the link to that Tom Bearden guy -- he is a fraud ! -- but he has links to links which are worth reading. for example:
which, by the way, concludes that anti-particle use is limited by the vast numbers of particles they would need to generate -- something like 10 to the 15th power for any large device -- PER SECOND -- for example, a propulsion device ! Please note that the guy you linked to claims that the Russian / Soviet Government already has such devices - which, if they did, they could conquer the world in one day ! ......... I'm waiting ....... still waiting ......... still waiting ......... falling asleep .......
However he seems to have included links to links to every on-line pdf he could get his digital fingers on -- he also is hawking tons of his own books which (if you can believe it) are nearly 100 in number. All published by his own publishing firm -- which publishes nothing but his books! I went and read some of his stuff and some of his UFO and magic healing associates' stuff -- he just spews out technical gobbli-gook and hopes no one notices ....... I noticed. One of the (hours long) videos he links to claims they have a "100% cure rate for all cancers" simply by shining ultraviolet light on the area (claiming it stimulates cells in some esoteric way) You know, the sun shines on us every day and ....... ultraviolet overexposure is linked to getting cancer and not curing it (that's why we all slather up with sun screen when we go to the beach) Its also why we need that ozone layer up there. (ozone filters out those harmful ultraviolet rays) Ultraviolet light would sterilize the entire planet over time -- which is why we can find no life on Mars. (No atmosphere to speak of, and virtually no free oxygen molecules) Any living organism better be under ground -- and stay there -- which is why we are digging up the soil on Mars (ie. looking for sub-soil microbes -- so far we have found exactly none)
You realize that if ANY of that crap was true ...... everyone on Earth would know his name, like, for instance Albert Einstein. (instead, it is like only a few actually know his name -- his business associates -- I'm betting you didn't )
John Wolfe
29-08-2017 03:37 (GMT)
Hi Nigel, actually, a golden orb of glowing fire (the sun or BL) would not need any contrast enhancement -- the yellow filter would add yellow to everything - now adding yellow to a blue sky will darken the sky a bit so if the orb was not very bright, it might be helpful. But its quite a stretch to say it would be needed. My guess is that you would want a filter which would DARKEN the orb, so as to not overexpose it. It all depends on the color of the orb. Note that the pictures found show a bright blob with no details -- is that because there were none? -- or because the orb was overexposed. That one of a blob coming toward the camera is the best one and is why I am convinced that BL was what they were looking at. It is very similar to some video I saw some years ago where the BL went at the camera and then went overhead (the camera was in a building) and exploded (off camera)
Now, if the search party found a spectrographic analyzer -- camera with a diffraction grate / lens with / then I would be very suspicious of the real reason for the hikers journey.
Nigel Evans
28-08-2017 19:51 (GMT)
@John - so if i follow, if the target object is commonly described as a "golden orb" a yellow filter would be good for adding contrast for daytime photos?
Yes i'd agree that the night time shots attributed to SZ seem well exposed. So either he was an expert or the camera was setup by one.
John Wolfe
28-08-2017 19:01 (GMT)
Hi Nigel, re: the filter (or filters) --- hard to say what filter might be helpful as that depends on the true color of the BL. The filters do some obvious things that most people do not consider: they ADD the color of the filter to the photo, and they SUBTRACT its opposite (for its effect on B&W film -- see my link to
In photographing the BL a filter might be useful if we knew what color the BL would show -- but BL is reported in a variety of colors. If I were doing a photo research of BL, and I only had B&W film, I could set up several cameras with filters and see what the effect was and from that reason backward to deduce the color by the effects of various filters. A VERY CUMBERSOM WAY TO DO IT. Color film would work just as good -- as would my eyes. The filter(s?) seen here would only be used for a daytime image -- its not a dark or thick filter -- its is thin and mostly transparent. Consider the difficulty of photographing a bright light-bulb in a dark outdoor space lit only by the bulb -- expose for the bulb and you see nothing else -- expose for the surrounding area (lit by the bulb itself) and the bulb would be extremely over-exposed. The photos I've seen (and I think I've seen them all) suggests that these images are about as good as you can get without some very expensive, and heavy equipment. The fact that most if not all of the photos are of fairly good exposure makes me think they all had extensive camera experience (otherwise you would see over and under exposures -- which we don't)
Nigel Evans
28-08-2017 17:45 (GMT)
Maybe it's all just natural phenomena, a result of atmospheric EM radiation. There is much for science to discover.
Anna Yordanova
28-08-2017 17:12 (GMT)
So perhaps Dyatlov and friends didn't see the phenomenal ball lightning, but witnessed military experiment and were killed.
Loose-Cannon
28-08-2017 16:18 (GMT)
Gets more fantastical every day. Now the BL foo-fighters follow you up rivers and around bends for miles before purposely attacking you.
@Anna - thanks for the link, an EMP bullet at 200kps, i like it.
@John - you know more about photography than i do but it sounds as if the filter would be useful for shots of BL in the daytime?..
Anna Yordanova
28-08-2017 09:12 (GMT)
Hi John thanks for the link. Yes for sure Dr Koloc won't put his hands on government money. He died in 2013.
Loose-Cannon
28-08-2017 01:37 (GMT)
Welp... I made it to Houston through 180mi of pure hell wall of rain. BL sightings.... Zip
BTW... Yes, Houston.... I don't recommend it right now. There is however thousands of flat bottom boats heading south on I45 all day.
John Wolfe
27-08-2017 23:34 (GMT)
Hi Anna, If any country ever weaponized ball lightning -- they'd NEVER be able to keep it a secret.
Also: if the Evil Soviet Empire (R. Reagan's words not mine) wanted to test such a weapon -- they wouldn't use it on a bunch of expensively trained science students at UPI -- they'd round up a few prisoners and ........ (smile guys, we're gong to take a group picture !)
John Wolfe
27-08-2017 23:23 (GMT)
Hi Anna, thanks for the link -- these guys have been trying to build a TOKAMAK for about 50 years -- I was introduced to them in the late 60's at CASE Inst. of Tech. (its much harder than you think) and at the Lawrence Livermore Labs, where they are trying to produce fusion by laser shock-wave compression. (no luck there either)
Still, I think it can be done -- as nature does it every day. Speaking of Nature - here's an interesting link about ITER:
But here we go with Ball Lightning (which everyone on this site tends to not like) So far impossible to make -- the trouble is, every time you spin a magnetic field all you get is a photon (ie a light wave/particle) and it runs off at the "speed if light".
Also: (and speaking of spinning) That BOZO mentioned in the Wired article is just spinning tall tales of hand-held weapons (like in Star Trek) to get his hands on government money (and he's not going to get any more!)
KMM
27-08-2017 23:23 (GMT)
A hurricane should stir up a flock ( is it flock or a gaggle?) of ball lightning. Any reports coming in yet ?
Anna Yordanova
27-08-2017 22:31 (GMT)
John,this is the article I found. Seems quite interesting.
John Wolfe
27-08-2017 22:29 (GMT)
LC -- if you're really going to Huston -- I suggest you first make an offering to ..... FSM. Should protect you as much as ST. Christopher does.
" It is disputed whether Christopher existed, and if so whether the name applied to a specific person or was a general title meaning "Christ-bearer" which was applied to several different real or legendary people"
Huston is closed for business for the next few days -- apparently the flooding has stirred up some Yeti -- who are attacking anyone not from Huston ..........
John Wolfe
27-08-2017 22:14 (GMT)
Hi Anna, could you send me a link to that Air Force / Army program?
"Anna Yordanova 08-27-2017 20:44 (GMT) In the 60s the US army was trying to weaponize the ball lightning and Air force created a programme called Harness cavalier"
John Wolfe
27-08-2017 22:09 (GMT)
The yellow filter is NOT a night-time filter -- its just a filter for B & W photography. It enhances the clouds in the sky. (by darkening the blue of the sky but not darkening the clouds) Mostly its called a yellow #(number here). Now mostly used for color photography. They do break -- they're not hardened glass, nor are they expensive -- I know, as I have broken a few filters in the 50 years I've been using a high end SLR. Sad. but now, everything is digital. I though that (reference / comment) was referring to the mystery camera and not my computer.
In the 60s the US army was trying to weaponize the ball lightning and Air force created a programme called Harness cavalier, but it was closed as it didn't produce significant results. This makes me think that there is possibility of foreign intelligence, present at Kholat Syakhl. Even though the program started in 1965 I think that the US army sent spies there in order to observe the phenomenon. Zolotarev and maybe Kolevatov were sent there as contra-spies and that's why Zolotarev had a second camera.So I think that they probably have watched the fireballs, but were not killed by it. It is also possible that the USSR army was ahead of USA and was already working on the project to weaponize the ball lightnings.
Nigel Evans
27-08-2017 20:35 (GMT)
@John - 1. click on the CAMERAS tab. 2. Hit the "F" key whilst pressing the "ctrl" key 3. type filter
Should see 15 matches.
@LC - "It's hopeless. Apparently your stupid if ya don't rush to biased conclusions and keep your mind outta the box. The all mighty BL has spoken.... End of discussion."
Now you're getting it.
KMM
27-08-2017 20:23 (GMT)
Joel, Tom, and Crow : watching a B movie about Ball Lightning. Joel played by woofie, Tom as himself, Crow played by Nigel
KMM
27-08-2017 19:53 (GMT)
Loose-Cannon 27-08-2017 18:41 (GMT) Headed into Houston for work, so if I dont post again..... 100% chance it was a BL fireball. Don't listen to the news.
your liable to get wet going to houston .
Does that photo of the 3 heads remind you of Mystery Science Theater 3000 ? ( if you have ever seen the show)
Loose-Cannon
27-08-2017 18:41 (GMT)
Headed into Houston for work, so if I dont post again..... 100% chance it was a BL fireball. Don't listen to the news.
Loose-Cannon
27-08-2017 18:38 (GMT)
KMM... It's hopeless. Apparently your stupid if ya don't rush to biased conclusions and keep your mind outta the box. The all mighty BL has spoken.... End of discussion.
KMM
27-08-2017 18:08 (GMT)
As I see it, you have 3 choices, physical interaction, natural phenomenon, paranormal events (in that order) most likely in causing the DPI. Until you can rule one out or have clear evidence of one of the others, You have to stick with the most likely
KMM
27-08-2017 17:45 (GMT)
Not if someone has a gun on you, he's not going to listen when you say hey, let me grab my knife.
"The urge to explain natural phenomena with fantastic stories is why this planet is infused with religious theory that god did this, and god caused that and our god is real and your god is not and lets have a war over religion -- goes back thousands of years if not tens of thousands."
take out natural phenomenon and substitute physical interaction and it explains what you are trying to do
John Wolfe
27-08-2017 17:45 (GMT)
note to KMM: lightning doesn't purposely attack and kill -- but it often does kill; the same with those balls of light / ball-lightning.
John Wolfe
27-08-2017 17:40 (GMT)
WTF ? who said their analogue cameras from the 1950's had anything to do with: "Filters - CtrlF on CAMERAS tab" ?
please, if anyone can tell me about that analogue camera no one had seen -- what brand and model --what lens -- what filter(s) -- what film was in it ?
I've got tons of cameras and filters and etc., and have been doing photography since the 50's, so I can try to figure out the purpose of that particular set-up.
Nigel Evans
27-08-2017 17:37 (GMT)
@KMM - no it's not. It's like saying that it's a huge leap from photographing a lightning strike to having it attack you. Rubbish. If you're there you are at risk.
John Wolfe
27-08-2017 17:17 (GMT)
as for the knives and three axes -- if you and your eight fellow hikers are attacked and you all are strong, healthy Russian youth (I know, one guy was older) you are definitely going to fight back with what you have (knives and axes) --- but they don't. This demonstrates that they were NOT attacked by any conventional attacker (man or beast) but rather something else must have happened; as they reached NOT for weapons -- but for cameras ! That is why I favor the ball-lightning hypothesis. You get attacked, and you have many weapons available, you fight back --- but --- you see strange lights moving around in the sky nearby, you grab your cameras. Also, BL (or glowing balls of light) were reported by several parties in the area on various dates -- both private hikers and military personnel (with some military reports stating that balls moved in the immediate vicinity of the search area and coming toward the men standing outside their tent) There are many you tube videos of strange balls of light, some turn out to be natural reflected /refracted lights from human sources -- but not all. There are many written reports of strange balls of light which kill or damage property -- no one is disputing these, there were /are many witnesses to these events. There are may witnesses to the strange behavior of these balls of light which kill / destroy / or in many cases do no harm at all -- some explode, some just dissipate with no sound nor injury to anything. We don't really understand what the heck these balls of light are -- but one thing is certain ...... they do exist.
I think we all do a shameful disrespect to those students of science / physics by not assuming that they would not be just fascinated by the BL they saw (reach for your camera - quick !) This is just a terrible tragedy of highly unusual natural phenomena -- if you are really interested in this (BL?) tragedy -- how about going out and studying and reading and attending lectures and watching videos and etc. and coming up with some ideas about these balls of light which kill? Balls of light that the hikers photographed just seconds before the tragedy unfolded.
The urge to explain natural phenomena with fantastic stories is why this planet is infused with religious theory that god did this, and god caused that and our god is real and your god is not and lets have a war over religion -- goes back thousands of years if not tens of thousands.
You might as well believe that the universe was created by the Flying Spaghetti Monster From Outer Space -- see:
It's still a HUGE leap from taking pictures of lights in the night sky(if that's even what they were doing) to being attacked by those lights .
Nigel Evans
27-08-2017 15:54 (GMT)
@LC - "Like this.... Exactly my point. Why such a fantastic conspiracy theory to explain this just to fit a BL theory. Perhaps he was just a guy with a camera. Again... I didn't know Yudin was the gear police of the bunch. I bet there was many many items carried by the group that he didn't catalog in his memory. This is 9 people with ALOT of crap!"
Nope not good enough, the group took about 100 photos (at a guess) mainly of each other in the week before but Yudin had never seen this camera. Speaks for itself imo. Massively so. SZ had a camera but it was commited to another purpose. He was found with a notebook in his hand and the camera around his neck. Wake up and smell the coffee here.
Why would the gov need to secretly infiltrate a kiddy hiker group just to photograph strange lights within their own country secluded in BFE. It makes no sense..... Who would they be hiding from?!?"
My theory would be that at least ID and YK knew what the plan was, maybe they all knew but in the culture of the time knew not to record it. Again wake up here, it was a dark night in a snowstorm on the top of the mountain and YK wanted to put his camera on a tripod, they cut several slits in the tent, there are photos from a camera on night settings of lights in the sky from a camera that was not used before that event. The facts scream that there was a purpose to all this.
"I think the BL theory does not need conspiracy embellishing.... Instead of micro analyzing and explaining the outlandish, perhaps leaving the theory to a basic core idea would help it be more appealing to folks."
Good to see your concern for the appeal of the BL theory. . But i don't think it's over analysis to make the case that they had a KGB sponsored mission to photograph the lights. From the looo.ch site it's clear that these things had been spotted from the air, possibly before the DPI event (not sure) and the KGB just thought why don't we start attaching our guys to some of these ski parties to take a closer look. They would be looking at the cost benefit as well, a lot of the missions would be fruitless, these are rare events.
Loose-Cannon
27-08-2017 14:50 (GMT)
"If the BL theory is semi fantastic, all the others are just fantastic."
Oh the BL itself, and all the fantastical explaining of the known facts is very extraordinary to say the least.
"Filters - CtrlF on CAMERAS tab. If the SZ photos are genuine and Yudin's comment is true (that he had never seen that camera) then it's reasonable to suppose that SZ's camera was preset for shooting lights at night and kept aside for that purpose, unless he was an expert (doubtful)."
Like this.... Exactly my point. Why such a fantastic conspiracy theory to explain this just to fit a BL theory. Perhaps he was just a guy with a camera. Again... I didn't know Yudin was the gear police of the bunch. I bet there was many many items carried by the group that he didn't catalog in his memory. This is 9 people with ALOT of crap!
"it soothed concerns wrt defection or contact with US, don't forget that students skiing around the artic circle was very novel, it would have been forbidden 5 years earlier. - it could have been seen as a fun trip within the KGB, camping under the stars, sharing a tent with girls... It is said that there was another KGB agent in the group "K". AK was buried seperately from the others and YK was clearly interested in night photography i.e. tripod and filters. So the theory would be that SZ was joining a colleague for some ski touring and maybe get some shots of something interesting, something that would bring them to the attention of their superiors, maybe a promotion. - it was a cheap under the covers solution, no team of military involved, no helicopters, all of that would require lots of bureaucracy and for what "to photograph lights in the sky?"
Again... Or it's just another guy on the trip with another camera. I have filters for my DSLR... Does that equal a conspiracy? Why would the gov need to secretly infiltrate a kiddy hiker group just to photograph strange lights within their own country secluded in BFE. It makes no sense..... Who would they be hiding from?!?
I think the BL theory does not need conspiracy embellishing.... Instead of micro analyzing and explaining the outlandish, perhaps leaving the theory to a basic core idea would help it be more appealing to folks.
Nigel Evans
27-08-2017 08:23 (GMT)
@LC - it's not a "dumb if you think otherwise" narrative but Sherlock's maxim "once you've ruled out the impossible whatever remains no matter how improbable is the answer". There is no way to prove any theory, my goal is to show that all the non BL theories have bigger flaws and hence the answer points to BL. If the BL theory is semi fantastic, all the others are just fantastic.
Filters - CtrlF on CAMERAS tab. If the SZ photos are genuine and Yudin's comment is true (that he had never seen that camera) then it's reasonable to suppose that SZ's camera was preset for shooting lights at night and kept aside for that purpose, unless he was an expert (doubtful).
"Also, I do not see any reason why the gov would have any reason to embed an agent within a group of students to get him where he needs to go. Im sure the gov could have gotten whomever they wanted there whenever they wanted, setup shop and hung around as long as needed. No kids required. " Fair point, this way efficiently solved a number of concerns :-
- it soothed concerns wrt defection or contact with US, don't forget that students skiing around the artic circle was very novel, it would have been forbidden 5 years earlier. - it could have been seen as a fun trip within the KGB, camping under the stars, sharing a tent with girls... It is said that there was another KGB agent in the group "K". AK was buried seperately from the others and YK was clearly interested in night photography i.e. tripod and filters. So the theory would be that SZ was joining a colleague for some ski touring and maybe get some shots of something interesting, something that would bring them to the attention of their superiors, maybe a promotion. - it was a cheap under the covers solution, no team of military involved, no helicopters, all of that would require lots of bureaucracy and for what "to photograph lights in the sky?".
Loose-Cannon
27-08-2017 01:37 (GMT)
"why bother with fantastic theories"
As if BL isn't fantastical. ROFLMFAO!
"Boy ! these alien hybrids are "rarer than chicken teeth" (or whatever was said)"
My exact quote is as follows... its self explanatory. Why bother with spinning lies? FYI, its called a metaphor... look it up.
"BL.... More rare then hens teeth and injuries caused by said fireball are dredged up from reports hundreds of years old."
"makes as much sense as just about any of the posts I've seen by several folks on this site"
People are simply turned off by your egotistical biased 'I am the authority' down-talk.... Who died and made you dictator in chief? The more you post, the more I realize the BL theory may be a fantastical load of BS.
Loose-Cannon
27-08-2017 01:14 (GMT)
Why are you acting as if I think a starchild existed and/or aliens killed the 9 hiker?
I simply pointed out that BL by definition is a...... UFO. In other words.... YOUR the one that is convinced it was a UFO. Oh..... the irony!
John Wolfe
27-08-2017 01:00 (GMT)
note to LC: I'm also interested in finding out more about that one camera on a homemade tripod (made from a ski pole, I read somewhere)
any info ? please post -- also interested in the filters found -- any info on which filter was found on the camera ? also -- were there any exposed images on the film in that camera from that night ? -- or did they not have a chance to use the tripod camera ? (that's my assumption -- that events happened too quickly and they fled before the camera could be used)
John Wolfe
27-08-2017 00:53 (GMT)
What I don't understand, and maybe someone can enlighten me, is why bother with fantastic theories (with no evidence to support them) when there are clear-headed and rational explanations which can explain a thing or event.
Also, if you go to some of those UFO videos you might take a close look at some of the faked UFO's which fly close to the ground but don't cast a shadow !
John Wolfe
27-08-2017 00:47 (GMT)
its not a starchild -- as both parents contributed human DNA:
DNA shows human -- and, common hydrocephalus can cause the defects seen
Loose-Cannon
26-08-2017 23:44 (GMT)
Where is the information regarding the type of camera and the filters found?
Also, I do not see any reason why the gov would have any reason to embed an agent within a group of students to get him where he needs to go. Im sure the gov could have gotten whomever they wanted there whenever they wanted, setup shop and hung around as long as needed. No kids required.
Loose-Cannon
26-08-2017 23:27 (GMT)
Nigel... watched the vid in its entirety. Interesting stuff as usual. (thumbs up)
Loose-Cannon
26-08-2017 23:26 (GMT)
OK... BL is a possibility, but some of us may be getting just a tad worn out on the 'your dumb if you think otherwise' narrative. The primary 'deal killer' with me regarding BL is IMHO it does not explain walking calmly, smashed skull, or multiple killing times and locations.... those mentioned are 'to me' highly unlikely. You may be looking at a combination of contributing factors, all of which may not derive from the BL itself.
Anyone else have some interesting ideas?
Nigel Evans
26-08-2017 22:25 (GMT)
@John / KMM - why the fuss about knives? If they were chased out of the tent by men with guns why does it matter? Also this cut from the inside or outside argument is irrelevant, give me a sharp knife with a fine tip and i could reproduce either standing outside.
Nigel Evans
26-08-2017 22:21 (GMT)
@John - imo the coverup was that the authorities were interested in these lights and attached a KGB agent equipped with a camera capable of night photography. That's why they went off course and that's why YK's camera was on a tripod with filters at the ready and that's why the plan wasn't recorded in the diaries, because it was official state business and not to be recorded informally or probably only on a need to know basis.
Then when they had lost 9 people including sensitive assets there had to be a hugely expensive investigation to at least account for all the bodies. So it fits that when Ivanov started talking about fireballs he was ordered to shut up, close the investigation and never speak of it again. He was getting too close, the hierarchy closed ranks to protect themselves.
kmm
26-08-2017 21:36 (GMT)
John Wolfe 25-08-2017 22:41 (GMT) note to LC: I've read about knives in several places -- there were "official" knives, and then there are un-official knives -- personal knives -- knives which the searchers may have taken but there is mention of knife-marks at the cedar trees - but no knife found - later found in the ravine.
This is the knife I have doubts about. Where do you get it was found in the ravine ??
KMM
26-08-2017 21:28 (GMT)
woofie : AS KMM DENIES THE PRESENCE OF THE KNIFE--WRONG, KMM DOESN'T BELIEVE IT WAS FOUND WITH THE BODIES
In fact, all three Finnish knives were in the tent -- HEY YOU GOT SOMETHING RIGHT !
THIS KNIFE WAS LIKELY FOUND AFTER THE 6th-- SAYS WHO ? CONJECTURE ON YOUR PART
John Wolfe
26-08-2017 21:18 (GMT)
I do think there is a possibility of a cover-up at the lower levels of the local Soviet government. This cover-up was completely un-necessary -- as there was no weapons testing, nor missile tests to cover-up. Also, any explosion from a bomb or exploding (failed) missile would leave lots of evidence all over the place. -- burned and torn body parts everywhere, blast damage to the tent and skis, small component parts embedded all over the rocks and soil - for a thousand feet in all directions, chemical residue, broken bits of the hiker's equipment all over the place, maybe some snapped skies, etc., etc., etc. My conjecture is that local officials wanted this story to go away as they were afraid of looking incompetent to the central authority. The loss of these eight students in the hard sciences (and the one older hiker) represented a loss of Soviet investment - an expensive one. I think they all just wanted the story to go away -- but the strangeness begs to be investigated -- and since the authorities didn't investigate -- the amateur yeti/UFO/secret plots/Soviet cover-up/etc. investigators took over this story -- why bother with known medical facts and physics. This is too bad as the hikers were all dedicated to the rational / scientific study of the strange world we live in.
John Wolfe
26-08-2017 20:01 (GMT)
@KMM -- said: You are still assuming a knife WAS found. and it was NOT one line conjecture, the previous 7 lines above that mentions the "scene inspection report" and its detailed findings, NO KNIFE ! The cuts of the tent appear to be made with two different knives. The first one was rather blunt because it left fringe and even didn’t cut some of the threads. The seond one was made with a very sharp blade. It easily went through the steam and left the edges looking even. --- FIRST MENTION OF MORE THAN ONE KNIFE --- But it also looks like no one tried to use it to tear the fabric down. What was it’s purpose and did the students have a blade that sharp? ---ASI'VE CONJECTURED ELSEWHERE, VIEWING SLOTS TO SEE STRANGE BALLS OF LIGHT --- Back in 1959 in the former USSR it was a big deal to have a Finnish knife. It was considered as a “cold weapon” and one would need to get an oficial permission from police to have it. --- MENTION OF A THIRD KNIFE, AN "OFFICIAL" KNIFE, THAT IS, ONE FOR WHICH YOU HAVE TO HAVE A PERMIT FOR --- From the Crimianl Case we know that Kolevatov had this kind of permission for his knife. No pictures of this knife and Kolevatov himself (seems like he was a pretty private person in general) which make some people speculate that he was a KGB agent. --- AS KMM DENIES THE PRESENCE OF THE KNIFE (NO PICTURE) SO MAYBE KOLEVATOV DOESN'T EXIST EITHER ... --- We see that Tibo had a knife – he kept it pretty much hidden from the sight but it can be spotted on some pictures. He had no permission for it and thus it was not returned to his family. --- THAT'S FOUR KNIVES MENTIONED SO FAR; AND IT WAS KEPT AND NOT RETURNED TO HIS FAMILY AS PERSONAL PROPERTY. HOW MANY OTHER UN-OFFICIAL KNIVES WERE KEPT AND NOT RETURNED? --- As for Krivonishenko – it seems like this guy was the only one who deliberately displayed his weapon while not having a permission to have it. The knife was never returned to the family for the same reason. --- FIVE KNIVES SO FAR; AND ITS ANOTHER UN-OFFICIAL / UN-PERMITTED KNIFE --- In fact, all three Finnish knives were in the tent. Tibo and Krivonishenko’s knives were found in their taurpalin’s pockets (CC, Vol 2, p.41) (“taurpalin” is a wind proof jacket) which would imply that the knives had never left the tent. --- I'M BEGINNING TO LOOSE COUNT .... I THINK THAT'S EIGHT, AND WE'RE NOT DONE YET. OH, AND THESE THREE WERE THE ONLY "OFFICIAL" / "PERMITTED" KNIVES --- From Captain Chernyshev’s official statement: ‘It’s possible to surmise that other people had since been by the fire…The trees near the fire had been cut with knives, but we found no knives with the bodies.’ --- AS THE OTHERS WOULD TAKE NOT ONLY CLOTHING BUT TOOLS, IN THIS CASE, ANY KNIFE THEIR DEAD COMPANIONS WOULD NO LONGER NEED --- This is inconsistent not only with the Criminal Case entries mentioned above but also with “The scene inspection report” dated May 6th, 1959, which goes into great detail about everything found there, including number and kinds of trees as well as clothing but never mentions any knives having been found. --- THE LAST FOUR WERE FOUND MAY 3 AND 4 WITH THE REPORT SIGNED OFF ON MAY 6TH, AS YOU MAY BE AWARE, MOST KNIVES ARE MUCH SMALLER THAN A HUMAN BODY AND SO MUCH HARDER TO FIND ! THIS KNIFE WAS LIKELY FOUND AFTER THE 6th --- The document was signed by prosecutor Tempalov and several others including Askinadzi who is still alive and testified about what they had seen there. (CC Vol. 1 pp. 341-343) --- AND HERE COMES THE ONE SENTENCE SPECULATION BY THE AUTHOR (S. OSS) AND NOT A QUOTE FROM A WITNESS NOR A REPORT --- One can guess that Lev Ivanov had a commitment to close the case at any cost and so he made this evidence up in order to explain the situation with the tree pad. --- AS I've COMMENTED ON THIS ONE SENTENCE ELSEWHERE, I'LL LET YOU GO FIND THAT COMMENT ON YOUR OWN --- In fact, we still don’t know with which knife the tent was cut and whether it really was cut from inside. --- THERE IS A REPORT ELSEWHERE OF A WOMAN EXPERT TESTIFYING / AFTER CLOSE EXAMINATION / THAT THE TENT HAD MANY CUTS FROM THE INSIDE / SHE LOOKED AT MICROSCOPIC THREAD TEARING AND SLICE ANGLES, ETC. (I'LL TRY TO FIND IT ON THE INTERNET) --- The most agrumented reason for the assumption can be found in Natalia Sakharova account of the tent expertise. Yuri Kuntsevich, the head of the Dyatlov foundation in Ekaterinburg, said he still doesn’t exclude the possibility that the tent had been cut from outside. According to him, it very well could be that somebody first pierced the tent’s material and than turned the blade of his knife and ripped the fabric through making it look like if it was done from inside. --- UM ..... THAT'S ANOTHER POSSIBLE KNIFE, ONE THAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN USED BY A SEARCH PARTY MEMBER, OR THAT HE/SHE BROUGHT TO THE SCENE. WHAT ARE WE UP TO NOW ? I'VE LOST COUNT, THERE ARE SO MANY KNIVES. IT IS MY GUESS THAT THEY ALL HAD KNIVES, THREE "OFFICIAL / PERMITTED" KNIVES AND MANY UN-OFFICIAL AND NOT REPORTED KNIVES. REMEMBER A KNIFE WOULD BE CONSIDERED BY THE SOVIET STATE AS A WEAPON OF COUNTER-REVOLUTION. THEY WEREN'T ALLOWED GUNS FOR THE SAME REASON.
Loose-Cannon
26-08-2017 15:17 (GMT)
I have always liked Lloyd Pye.... seen alot of these, but not this particular one. Great stuff, Ill watch it all.
Loose-Cannon
26-08-2017 15:15 (GMT)
Right.... So basically you have the true definition of an Unidentified Flying Object.
Note: A UFO does NOT 'have' to mean from another world.
There is at present no widely accepted explanation for ball lightning. Several hypotheses have been advanced since the phenomenon was brought into the scientific realm by the English physician and electrical researcher William Snow Harris in 1843,[56] and French Academy scientist Francois Arago in 1855.[57]
Loose-Cannon
26-08-2017 14:41 (GMT)
I see what your saying, but still think these injuries 'could' have been obtained via human actions or other natural forces like falling.
My scenarios listed... Without micro details.
1: Human intervention. Whether it be from within the group or foreign to the group. 2: Ball lightning 3: Yeti.... Though I have never really been convinced they exist.
What year did scientist confirm BL as a real and naturally occurring phenomenon?
Nigel Evans
26-08-2017 14:14 (GMT)
@LC - btw my #2 theory for the ravine injuries would be a yeti. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWMTiwUGprg . This is an entertaining 2 hour video that i couldn't stop watching get a few beers in and enjoy. Lloyd Pye making the case for human existence having nothing to do with evolution. It's certainly thought provoking if a "bit" of a leap. But he makes a very good case for a reclusive hominid still existing. It's estimated that neanderthal man was six times stronger than modern humans.
Nigel Evans
26-08-2017 13:39 (GMT)
Well the only qualified doctor involved with the DPI, has actually worked on the bodies and said what he said - NTB couldn't have been hit with a blunt object. But for me the biggest indication of "superhuman force" is LD's double fracture on the RHS. That something hit her so hard that her chest fractured twice but only halfway down, indicates very strong, focused transient force to me. A blow to the chest creating one fracture i can believe but once broken it would prevent a second fracture from further blows. So the double fracture came from one action... That was the pathologist's view also, superhuman force like from a car accident or shockwave from a bomb. Also i know it can't be proved but that SZ received very similar injuries lends to a single event being the cause. It's just how i see it.
Loose-Cannon
26-08-2017 12:54 (GMT)
"The idea that these injuries could have been produced by experts in hand to hand combat is simply ludicrous. It would be easier to punch a hole right through his head than to split the base. The best guess is that they were crushed which also explains no broken limbs or burst lungs from an explosion. But the main point is that the ravine 4 suffered superhuman force."
Im guessing neither one of us is a qualified 'bone doctor', but I would think this to be completely false. In my young days, I was unfortunate to have witnessed not one... but two skulls get busted just with a fist punch. One crushed the temple area in, and the other caved in the entire eye socket.... It wasn't pretty as a bystander. Now, you go and pick up a good size log, rock, or any other foreign object and these injuries are 100% believable to me. Im sure there are many ways to bust up a chest also... falling out of a tree , or body slamming comes to mind. I wonder what happens when someone boot stomps your chest with as much force as possible. They had on e the most clothing.... remember? Could easily explain the lack of superficial surface cuts. Then again, it would be hard to tell on bodies that were rotting in a freaking river for months.
Dont get me wrong, I have stated many times BL 'could' be the answer here, but I find it somewhat troubling how people can proclaim its the 'only' answer.
@John the above ball was blue and probably 1metre in diameter or more. I find the LC footage very plausible.
Nigel Evans
26-08-2017 10:20 (GMT)
@Sandy and all non BLeivers
I've read that the chest fractures are consistent with being dropped 60ft. NTB's skull was split cross the base (strongest part). The idea that these injuries could have been produced by experts in hand to hand combat is simply ludicrous. It would be easier to punch a hole right through his head than to split the base. The best guess is that they were crushed which also explains no broken limbs or burst lungs from an explosion. But the main point is that the ravine 4 suffered superhuman force.
The BL theory has several versions, the simplest is that it is photographed at the tent and then stays there preventing their return, the subsequent deaths as a result of den collapse and a debilitating microwave field which is the original cause of the BL.
But it's also possible that the BL subsequently travels downhill and explodes. That's what historical accounts describe.
KMM
26-08-2017 08:35 (GMT)
John Wolfe 26-08-2017 07:14 (GMT) I am aware of that one line conjecture -- but that is by the writer (S. Oss) and not by the witness -- quoting the one line of conjecture: "One can guess that Lev Ivanov had a commitment to close the case at any cost and so he made this evidence up in order to explain the situation with the tree pad."
My point was that there were many knives.
We can also conjecture that the knife was found after May 6th -- the report date -- when it warmed enough to melt some of the snow.
You are still assuming a knife WAS found. and it was NOT one line conjecture, the previous 7 lines above that mentions the "scene inspection report" and its detailed findings, NO KNIFE !
John Wolfe
26-08-2017 07:14 (GMT)
I am aware of that one line conjecture -- but that is by the writer (S. Oss) and not by the witness -- quoting the one line of conjecture: "One can guess that Lev Ivanov had a commitment to close the case at any cost and so he made this evidence up in order to explain the situation with the tree pad."
My point was that there were many knives.
We can also conjecture that the knife was found after May 6th -- the report date -- when it warmed enough to melt some of the snow.
KMM
26-08-2017 04:42 (GMT)
John Wolfe 25-08-2017 22:45 (GMT) note to KMM: sent note to LC -- but was for you: here it is:
note to LC: I've read about knives in several places -- there were "official" knives, and then there are un-official knives -- personal knives -- knives which the searchers may have taken but there is mention of knife-marks at the cedar trees - but no knife found - LATER FOUND IN THE RAVINE.
your own link says the knife being found was made-up by Ivanov to close the case.
Except for the diary showing it was in need of constant repair and sewing.
JohnWolfe
25-08-2017 22:58 (GMT)
One thing that has always bothered me about the tent is all the small cuts toward the top which do not continue down -- I now wonder, with all this talk of knives -- and I guarantee you that any camper would have a knife if at all possible (that is even illegal ones - in USSR -- as you do not want to be caught without a knife -- they're too handy) If most or all of them had some pocket or small knife they might have been cutting individual viewing "windows" / slits to view the BL -- please note -- I don't think they would cut individual viewing slots just to look at attackers -- but to view strange balls of light which explode.
John Wolfe
25-08-2017 22:45 (GMT)
note to KMM: sent note to LC -- but was for you: here it is:
note to LC: I've read about knives in several places -- there were "official" knives, and then there are un-official knives -- personal knives -- knives which the searchers may have taken but there is mention of knife-marks at the cedar trees - but no knife found - later found in the ravine.
John Wolfe
25-08-2017 22:41 (GMT)
note to LC: I've read about knives in several places -- there were "official" knives, and then there are un-official knives -- personal knives -- knives which the searchers may have taken but there is mention of knife-marks at the cedar trees - but no knife found - later found in the ravine.
KMM
25-08-2017 20:04 (GMT)
the Finnish knife was found in the tent inventory with the axe's,
Whatever it was, if I have my free will I am going to grab shoes, knifes, axes, something, to take with me ! They had to know they were going to suffer frostbite, amputations, death, leaving unprepared and NOT dressed for the cold.
KMM
25-08-2017 19:36 (GMT)
John Wolfe 25-08-2017 17:41 (GMT) note to Sandy:
The nine hikers all had small camping knives
Where did you get this ? facts please ! only RS is found with a penknife in his shirt pocket
Loose-Cannon
25-08-2017 19:29 (GMT)
"There were NO footprints found of the hikers from starting point to where they erected the tent that day, but we know they did . "
They were on skies
KMM
25-08-2017 19:15 (GMT)
woofie If your going to bring up FACTS, give me some to show that BL was responsible., not conjecture
KMM
25-08-2017 19:13 (GMT)
I am sure if they had found more footprints It would of been reported.
This site says no other footprints were found !
John Wolfe
25-08-2017 18:51 (GMT)
@KMM -- "There were NO footprints found of the hikers from starting point to where they erected the tent that day, but we know they did . "
please show where you got this "fact"
John Wolfe
25-08-2017 18:47 (GMT)
Note for Sandy:
the BL doesn't "stalk" a target like a human / hunter would --- but rather like the way a lightning bolt could "stalk" a person standing under a tree -- a body conducts much better than a tree so any lightning strike would jump from the tree to the human body; and there are many documented cases of multiple deaths from one strike while standing under a tree.
Note that I am not suggesting BL is the same as a lightning bolt -- but that these are related in some way that is not completely understood (mostly because of the much more rare and transient nature of BL)
KMM
25-08-2017 18:40 (GMT)
There were NO footprints found of the hikers from starting point to where they erected the tent that day, but we know they did .
John Wolfe
25-08-2017 18:39 (GMT)
Note to all: re the photos at the bottom of the "theories" page -- note the note below the photos. Most of these are just small (tiny !) film damage and / or contamination. The interesting pics are #'s 1, 7, 8. These seem to show BL. To suggest that the others show a failed rocket test or airplane loosing a wing is just absurd -- and not worth the discussion space.
John Wolfe
25-08-2017 18:30 (GMT)
note to Nigel -- I'm not impressed with the UFO theories at that research at Hessdalen web-site. Rubbish !
But the photos /videos look more like some kind of BL (or photoshop) -- Hard to say as the UFO people frequently fake "evidence" and then cite each other's faked photos as fact -- just like the Yeti people do.
Sandy
25-08-2017 18:14 (GMT)
I watched LC's video and there's NO WAY possible for a fire ball, ball of lightening, ANY Ball or Light, to have killed nine people, all with different bruises and injuries, while 5 froze to death. Thinking some kind of Fire Ball stalked them & killed each & everyone of them is absurd.
Sandy
25-08-2017 18:04 (GMT)
In expert hand to hand combat, it wouldn't leave blood. Yet most of the hikers showed they'd been bleeding at the mouth & it had dried. One of Luda's ribs had penetrated the heart cavity. I believe it's possible for one human being that's been trained to kill another by crushing their ribs, neck, skull & not have the victims bleed on the outside. Luda has bled into her heart cavity & there was blood found in her stomach which led many to believe she was alive when her tongue was cut. I don't think it's possible to bite down on a tongue hard enough to actually sever it no matter what the situation.
Someone said there wasn't any soft tissue found but there was. It's on this site under theories. Read the 1st one, it's by the Russian author. If you kick hard enough & know exactly where to kick, it's very possible to break another's ribs and reduce it to a mass of bones by repeated kickings. It also makes sense as to why but 4 had fatal injuries. They wouldn't die of hypothermia & had to be killed physically.
I remember too that a patch of a military uniform had been found & Yuri Yudin (#10) had never seen it before. I'm sure there's a good way to brush/remove footprints as well.
John Wolfe
25-08-2017 17:41 (GMT)
note to Sandy:
The nine hikers all had small camping knives (good weapons) and at least three hand axes (very good weapons) (seen any of those "Viking-slaughter-movies" lately? --- or look up old Viking names ... such as "Thorkle the Skull-splitter) and .... AND ! ..... AND ! -- these were nine enthusiastic and in great health and strength Russian youth -- don't you think if the nine were really attacked by anything living (man or animal) there would be Lots-O-Blood everywhere ! ...... there was no blood spilled at any place. Also, there were no other footprints. (other than the nine hikers)
John Wolfe
25-08-2017 17:02 (GMT)
finally loose cannon has an interesting post (probably by mistake) but please look at his video (I'll repost it here: Loose-Cannon 08-25-2017 02:45 (GMT) Alright all you Fireball fans. Too bad there are no close-ups or injuries to add to the vid. Im about fireballed out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAyB0XMvAxY&feature=youtu.be )
the interesting part lasts for only a few seconds so please go to 59 seconds in and notice a second fireball -- looks like Ball lightning to me -- the second BL keeps popping in and out of (existence - at least as a visible ball ) I've seen this in other videos as well and wonder if something like that indicates a linked system of charge vortex -- this is seen with normal lightning and is responsible for the discharge path when it connects with its opposite charge (path)
So I'm not convinced those bright blue balls are BL in the sense we have been talking about here -- but they might be and / or might be related -- maybe like a precursor to BL.
Any thoughts ?
Sandy
25-08-2017 16:55 (GMT)
They had bruises all over their bodies! Plus each of them had hand bruises, cuts, scratches. Before you say the reasons it couldn't have been murder by agents trained in hand to hand combat, you should read the book or at least read the parts that start with them being forced down the slope w/o winter attire & how each injury happened to each one. I had zero questions after I finished it except, of course, the WHY they all had to be murdered.
Loose-Cannon
25-08-2017 16:31 (GMT)
"9 people all at once might have been a bit difficult to control them all to do everything they were ordered to do."
Kinda like being grouped to together a mile down the slope of a mountain in whiteout conditions with no additional footprints observed. Are we to believe said killers were able to erase any evidence of ONLY their footprints?
This is why I dont read books like this. You tend to have the author do the thinking for you.
Sandy
25-08-2017 16:31 (GMT)
Not just bare hands, feet, legs, knees, etc. etc. Experts at hand to hand combat. Think Billy Jack. And yes, it is possible to give someone injuries like that. Sitting on someone's chest can crush it if you know what to do. That Yuri had a gray foam on his face that would depict just that. Yes they can crush ribs, skulls, necks..... I believe one of them hit Zina on her backside as hard as he could when he saw that she was in the lead for returning to the tent with a baton of some sort. There was a bruise to substantiate this & due to this serious injury, it slowed her down & brought on hypothermia even sooner.
Lightning
25-08-2017 16:28 (GMT)
If these injuries were done by hand/knee/fist that would have left big scars and caused soft tissue damage! But there werent any!!!!
Sandy
25-08-2017 16:23 (GMT)
The author thinks Rustem was the first to be physically assaulted and the first to die of hypothermia. The 2 that were well dressed for the cold simply didn't obey the command & kept their clothes. The last thing the criminals wanted was to shoot these people. 9 people all at once might have been a bit difficult to control them all to do everything they were ordered to do.
Sandy
25-08-2017 16:18 (GMT)
SZ was not involved in making the fire or anything to do with it. He attempted to make them understand this but the 2 Yuri's were the least dressed & just wanted warmth. SZ went to the ravine & made the den & 3 others eventually went there as well. SZ did not have any burn marks, etc. that depicted he'd been at the cedar as the others did. He couldn't stop them from making the fire but almost all the other hikers didn't realize how serious the threat was for them. They figured they could keep warm with a fire & when the "criminals" left they would return to the tent.
Loose-Cannon
25-08-2017 16:12 (GMT)
Sorry... I added the @sandy part where the name goes. Still getting used to this format.
I posted the previous statement.
Sandy
25-08-2017 16:11 (GMT)
Their ribs were broken by "hand to hand combat". If you research that you will find that trained experts in various fields can achieve such bodily injury to another by using hands, fists, knees, feet, etc. The Russian author explains each and every detail of what he thinks happened to all 9. It is the ONLY theory and I've read them ALL, that can explain why they left the tent, what kept them from returning, starting the fire at the cedar & climbing it, the 3 that tried to return & all 4 at the ravine's injury & how it occurred. Quite simply, it explains everything except I still can't wrap my head around WHY they were murdered & what it gained the "criminals" in doing so? Also, the torture, agony, & indescribable suffering 5 of them had to endure, and all this on top of freezing to death. I used to think the Tate-LaBianca murders were the worst of anything I've ever read, and I read true crime & watch it daily.
If true, what happened to half these hikers is even worse than that. I really can't explain how much agony/pain this would have caused. It leaves me speechless at how evil these criminals must have been.
@sandy
25-08-2017 16:11 (GMT)
I happen to agree with you (to and extent), but a few here are convinced otherwise and actually have some interesting arguments.
Believe half of what you see and none of what you read.
KMM
25-08-2017 16:09 (GMT)
"#2 Nothing was taken/stolen from any of the victims nor the tent. #3 The tent contents were found in perfect order and not rummaged through in any way."
I agree with these statements, I think it was cia/kgb transfer of radioactive samples and the scene at the tent was staged. Tried to make it look like a accident as much as possible after things went wrong.
Anna Yordanova
25-08-2017 16:09 (GMT)
Yes Sandy that was I said-killers,hidden in the storage house.
Lightning
25-08-2017 16:09 (GMT)
Instead of killing them with the gun, they/he/she went into superman mod (got superhuman strength) and killed all 9 with bare hands!
Sandy
25-08-2017 16:02 (GMT)
I've scouraged thru a lot of posts, but yet to find any discussion on the murders and "Death on the Trail". I'm amazed nobody here is discussing the Russian book by Alexei Rakitin. I'd love to hear what people think of it. If you haven't read it, please do. I'm amazed there's still readers that think an "avalanche" killed those people. Or ball lightening. What else would make 9 people walk single file without coats, gloves, boots down a slope, in the dark and frigid weather?? People pointing a gun at you .....
Lightning
25-08-2017 15:56 (GMT)
Not gonna turn this forum into political jibbo-jabbo. Hopefully one day someone with the money can conduct some tests to bust some myths that are circulating here.
Loose-Cannon
25-08-2017 15:47 (GMT)
"Good to see discussion is still going. Just ignore the Loose Cannon, he is just typical liberal idiot"
Political hate speech... ROFL
I run a firearms forum... Take a guess who I voted for.
Stop posting under several names.
Loose-Cannon
25-08-2017 15:42 (GMT)
@sandy
You really need to do more research rather then be consumed by a biased book.
#1 I have a high paying job you dipstick. #2 Nothing was taken/stolen from any of the victims nor the tent. #3 The tent contents were found in perfect order and not rummaged through in any way. #4 Her tongue was NOT cut out. She was found months later half decomposed face down in a freaking creek.
Great, another know-it-all.
Nigel Evans
25-08-2017 15:41 (GMT)
@Sandy - "There's no way this was "ball lightening" folks. It doesn't explain the injuries, etc." Ball lightning is known to explode with great force and the pathologist said :- "Question: How is it possible to explain the cause of the damage to Dubinina and Zolotaryov? Is it possible to combine them into one cause? Answer: I think the character of the wounds on Dubinina and Zolotaryov – a multi-splintered fracture of the ribs – on Dubinina were bilateral and symmetrical, and on Zolotaryov were one-sided. Both had haemorrhaging into the cardiac muscle with haemorrhaging into the pleural cavity, which is evidence of them being alive [when injured] and is the result of the action of a large force, similar to the example used for Tibo. These wounds, especially appearing in such a way without any damage to the soft tissue of the chest, are very similar to the type of trauma that results from the shock wave of a bomb."
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (pp. 99-100). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
"The 2 Yuris never should have started a fire at the cedar tree." You don't think that SZ, a WW2 veteran and almost certainly a KGB agent would have formed that conclusion even if the other (highly intelligent) members hadn't?.... The fire is the fact that murders the murder theory... It was a non sentient threat and they thought they had retreated to a safe distance.
Lightning
25-08-2017 15:40 (GMT)
Good to see discussion is still going. Just ignore the Loose Cannon, he is just typical liberal idiot.
Sandy
25-08-2017 15:05 (GMT)
To Loose Cannon - Your mouth certainly is. I wish you'd stop posting as your comments are ignorant & you're not funny.at.all you stupid *ss. This is a very serious matter & somehow, you think you're a comedian. What you are is irritating, disrespectful & most unfunny. I pass thru your posts every time I see it's yours. Grow up. Get a j-o-b. Find another website.
Sandy
25-08-2017 14:59 (GMT)
There's no way this was "ball lightening" folks. It doesn't explain the injuries, etc. These 9 hikers were murdered and by people. The 2 Yuris never should have started a fire at the cedar tree. That only encouraged the "criminals" that were going thru everything at the tent & also ripping it with great gusto to ensure it would be useless if any of the hikers did manage to make it back to the tent.
I believe they saw the fire at the cedar & realized death by hypothermia may not be as simple as they'd originally thought. The gray foam on one of the Yuri's at the cedar is explained by someone sitting on his chest & applying great pressure. Hand to hand combat.
Sandy
25-08-2017 14:51 (GMT)
I have also been mystified about the 9 hikers & have read a lot on it + 3 of the books. I believe what Alexei Rakitin wrote in his book "Death on the Trail". It explains everything & is the very best source on what could have happened. What I don't understand is the reason for torturing and murdering these innocent young people. I believe there were 2 or 3 "criminals" that had firearms & forced the hikers to disrobe & walk down to the forest in light clothing, no gloves & no shoes. I've always wondered why, if terrified, they didn't fly down that slope or try to. The criminals figured they would all freeze to death & officials wouldn't suspect what really happened. When 4 of them didn't die, they used "hand to hand combat" to murder them. It explains the injuries. As for Luda's cut tongue, I think she was screaming out of terror & her tongue was cut for this reason. I believe it is very easy to brush away other footprints, esp. if they're wearing snowshoes. They also could have easily walked down the slope in the footprints of the 9. I'm overwhelmed by the torture & pain caused to these poor hikers. As if being forced to be barefoot/socks & without gloves in very frigid weather wouldn't be bad enough, they have to crush skulls, ribs, necks, etc.
I encourage people here to read "Death on the Trail". A poster here provides the link & the Russian has been translated to English. I did not read word for word so maybe I've missed the really great reason why these criminals would torture these innocents & cause such blinding agony & pain.
Nigel Evans
25-08-2017 08:51 (GMT)
@John - detached St Elmo's fire is one theory, but i think there are different classifications, some of the scientific research at Hessdalen speaks of objects as big as a barn. So different classes, different causes perhaps. One interesting aspect of the DPI lights is that the eye witnesses speak of it being surrounded by a mist (just like in the Eagle photo), this suggests a cold object perhaps, given the high winds a very cold one, a superconducting plasma is another theory.
@Spielberg - now you're talking, but you didn't include the Eagle + two heads photos in a video titled "Dyatlov Pass Fireball"???
as for the incident you mentioned -- could it be that the electrical properties of the wing are different than the fuselage ?
again, the problem is that the two look very similar -- the wiki states that sailors considered St Elmo's Fire to be a good omen --- no one has said THAT about BL -- and St Elmo's Fire is not associated with damage or death in reported incidents.
Loose-Cannon
24-08-2017 22:54 (GMT)
WTF. Roflmfao!
Nigel Evans
24-08-2017 22:41 (GMT)
He's unconcious.
Igor Dyatlov
24-08-2017 21:45 (GMT)
Мои глаза. Оно горит!!! НИКОЛАЙ больше не говорит!
Nigel Evans
24-08-2017 21:38 (GMT)
Because he waited in vain for her.
Igor Dyatlov
24-08-2017 21:31 (GMT)
Зинаида разрывает сердце Игоря. ЗАЧЕМ!!!!!
Igor Dyatlov
24-08-2017 20:41 (GMT)
Сладкая цина. Игорь так грустен!
KMM
24-08-2017 20:15 (GMT)
john wolfe one last thought on walking vs. running..............
but what evidence there is shows they did not run but walked (proceeded calmly) down the slope. and you have to go by what evidence there is ! Or else write your own story 55 yrs later and craft it your own way.
Nigel Evans
24-08-2017 19:34 (GMT)
@John - one account has it that the ball appeared within a passenger aircraft, passed through the pressurised fuselage without (micro) damage and then.... bounced along the wing (perpendicular to the airstream) and then disappeared into the sky... How does it ignore the fuselage but recognise (bounce on) the wing? Try and explain that one.
They can pass through glass windows without any damage or remove the glass leaving a neat hole.
@KMM - there's photographic evidence.
@Loose-Cannon - from memory the rescue team cut the mid panel out to access the interior, but not the end slit on the RHS of the photos.
Loose-Cannon
24-08-2017 19:19 (GMT)
One little thing like that and the entire BL narrative goes poof.
Loose-Cannon
24-08-2017 19:00 (GMT)
Who says they didn't button up the tent from the outside expecting to return and the damages were done by the hiker rescue team as reported? Perhaps there was no panic to begin with.
John Wolfe
24-08-2017 18:24 (GMT)
one last thought on walking vs. running:
Suppose you and your eight fellow hikers are attacked by a deadly glowing rabbit (or a yeti, if you prefer) outside your tent -- the rabbit has already bitten three of your friends and so you all retreat back into the tent --- and then the deadly rabbit enters through the tent flap / door and you have only seconds to respond. (fight of flight response) After you slash your way out of the back of the tent (a panic response? or a very rational one?)
My question is: either way, do you calmly walk to your hypothermic demise ??? or do you run like hell ? You already know standing still, outside the tent, didn't work -- that's how the three got "bitten" by the glowing rabbit -- I repeat: standing outside the tent doesn't work.
John Wolfe
24-08-2017 17:51 (GMT)
note to KMM -- re: the multifaceted observations / reports of BL vary enormously
this is why any discussion of BL is so difficult -- and why it has been so difficult to reproduce in a plasma lab. Hard to tell where primary effects end and secondary effects begin.
TALK ABOUT COVERING YOUR OWN ASS : read the characteristics from wiki
Descriptions of ball lightning vary widely. It has been described as moving up and down, sideways or in unpredictable trajectories, hovering and moving with or against the wind; attracted to,[37] unaffected by, or repelled from buildings, people, cars and other objects. Some accounts describe it as moving through solid masses of wood or metal without effect, while others describe it as destructive and melting or burning those substances. Its appearance has also been linked to power lines[38] as well as during thunderstorms and also calm weather. Ball lightning has been described as transparent, translucent, multicolored, evenly lit, radiating flames, filaments or sparks, with shapes that vary between spheres, ovals, tear-drops, rods, or disks.[39]
they didn't say if it was a hen or a rooster -- I'm betting on the hen .....
John Wolfe
24-08-2017 17:30 (GMT)
Hi Nigel: interesting -- a magnetic field (spinning or otherwise) goes right through a glass window -- however the window can stop particles such as free electrons and ions -- I think these particles are responsible for the tiny holes we sometimes see glass windows in BL reports. I wonder if any of these windows have been preserved -- as a close inspection might show if the millimeter sized hole was abraded or melted.
KMM
24-08-2017 17:22 (GMT)
Although BL probably exists there is NO evidence of it ATTACKING these hikers or any others ! just speculation
Nigel Evans
24-08-2017 16:31 (GMT)
@Loose & KMM - ok back to the discussion, reading your post :-
"BL.... More rare then hens teeth and injuries caused by said fireball are dredged up from reports hundreds of years old." Not that rare - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-37843273 .
Yeti.... Reported sightings like every day. You'd need to provide evidence for that one, afaik their existence is just conjecture.
Seems to be, the BL perhaps holds less water then...... Yeti!. I've shown you mine now you show me yours, you can't even prove they exist.
Evidence of BL existing is NOT evidence as to what happened to these hikers. Fair point.
You cant just dredge up some ships log from 300 years ago and say SEE.. LOOKY...LOOKY... this is evidence as to what happened. Yes you can.
How does it feel to believe in something less common then..... Yeti? There is no concrete evidence for Yeti/Bigfoot/Alma etc. As above their very existence is conjecture. This is not the case with BL, it is a proven phenomena with a history of causing fatalities. Further there are recent reports coming from India that fit with the historical evidence.
Big difference.
Loose-Cannon
24-08-2017 15:48 (GMT)
Laff... I would rather have my drawers loose then have my panties in a wad like John The Tranny.
You know thats funny right thar!!
Nigel Evans
24-08-2017 14:17 (GMT)
@Loose - "Loose-Knickers", that's what you get when you spend too much time ROFLMAO.....
Glad you're enjoying the debate, it's keeping me entertained, much respect btw.
Cue Last of the Mohicans soundtrack.
Loose-Cannon
24-08-2017 14:08 (GMT)
You posted...
"@Loose-Knickers - "mating season of field mice in the area as 'evidence", now you're talking."
I have respect for you and enjoy the debating.... Dont stoop to John The Retards level by following his lead on name replacement.
Nigel Evans
24-08-2017 13:13 (GMT)
@Loose - don't follow..
Loose-Cannon
24-08-2017 12:25 (GMT)
Did you not follow john John Imbecile with the @name replacement?
Nigel Evans
24-08-2017 12:17 (GMT)
@Just-woke-up - "Nigel the follower"!! Now i am offended (and that's not easy , when you next add a comment look at my post - 19-02-2016 19:43 (GMT) 4th ever, 1st on BL, nuff said.
Nigel Evans
24-08-2017 12:13 (GMT)
@WTF - who is Mike and why am i a follower?
Loose-Cannon
24-08-2017 12:12 (GMT)
Sorry... Just woke up.
Supposed to read @John Imbecile and @Nigel the Follower
Just remember... You started this crap by being narrow minded and disrespectful in the first place.
Loose-Cannon
24-08-2017 11:57 (GMT)
@Mike Imbecile and @Nigel the Follower
I guess this is what happens when you no longer have an argument. You would be better served not going into exact details about your (less likely then Yeti) BL theory acting as if you you know better then everyone else. The BL theory is a pretty fantastical idea in of itself, why muddy the waters with contradictions and inconsistencies generated by pure speculation covered with layers upon layers of BS excuses?
Don't be a pseudo intellectual.
Nigel Evans
24-08-2017 10:28 (GMT)
@John-Wolfe - as said before a common factor of BL is spinning electrically charged air. Dust storms, foo fighters behind planes, mountain crests. The atmosphere as a magnetron?
Nigel Evans
24-08-2017 09:29 (GMT)
@John Wolfe - thanks for the John Cleese link, very good and very true of course. But i'm with others on the walking downhill theory. It was dark and you can't run down rough ground particularly with a strong wind on your back. Plus they had no need to, whatever forced them to flee the tent stayed there preventing an early return.
@Loose-Knickers - "mating season of field mice in the area as 'evidence", now you're talking.
KMM
24-08-2017 05:09 (GMT)
There ya go... BL less likely the Yeti. Happy now? "FYI.... Evidence of BL existing is NOT evidence as to what happened to these hikers. You cant just dredge up some ships log from 300 years ago and say SEE.. LOOKY...LOOKY... this is evidence as to what happened."
VERY WELL SAID AND VERY TRUE
John Wolfe
24-08-2017 04:13 (GMT)
and before I forget - one last note for Nigel -- my post about spinning magnetic fields (which didn't post) so I subsequently mentioned sic, but forgot to mention --- spinning at megahertz range, producing electrical waves -- microwaves ! Spinning / contrasting fields can mutually support each other -- for example a photon.
JohnWolfe
24-08-2017 04:00 (GMT)
Hi Nigel,
here's something that I think you will appreciate, and which will explain loose-drawers (or whatever he calls himself) and probably a few more of the imposters here:
woffie "more collage kids" I think the work you were reaching for is COLLEGE
Loose-Cannon
24-08-2017 01:15 (GMT)
"that was alcohol for cleaning cuts and etc."
Uh... No it wasn't brain-child. The collage rescue hikers drank it... Out of the flask containing it. GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ASS AND DO SOME REAL RESEARCH. Then again... You cannot even read my name correctly, so expectations of you doing so are not high.
Loose-Cannon
24-08-2017 01:09 (GMT)
"shows the tent was NOT positioned with opening uphill"
Im not talking about the button-up entrance there brain-child, and I told you already.. I don't believe in UFOs of yeti and I happen to have the BL theory as a #2 on my list of possibilities. I do know, the BL theory is being heavily and biasedly pushed by a select few whom seem to see BL evidence in.... Everything! I hate to be the one to burst your little bubble, but the BL theory still has PLENTY of holes..... You just do not want hear about it. NOW HEAR THIS.... JOHN HAS MADE THE EXECUTIVE DECISION ON THE MATTER.
Welp... Lets blow a few more holes in this sucker eh?
BL.... More rare then hens teeth and injuries caused by said fireball are dredged up from reports hundreds of years old.
Yeti.... Reported sightings like every day.
Seems to be, the BL perhaps holds less water then...... Yeti!.
There ya go... BL less likely the Yeti. Happy now? FYI.... Evidence of BL existing is NOT evidence as to what happened to these hikers. You cant just dredge up some ships log from 300 years ago and say SEE.. LOOKY...LOOKY... this is evidence as to what happened.
Unfortunately for John, I have just as much interest in the subject as anyone else. Again, you are not the authority on the subject and people are entitled to what ever the frick they wanna believe. This isn't an authoritarian dictatorship.
How does it feel to believe in something less common then..... Yeti?
John Wolfe
24-08-2017 01:07 (GMT)
I can't resist one last "comment" to loose shorts:
quoting L.C. (or whatever): "Yup... Just like the fireball theory. You guys will literally attempt to use the mating season of field mice in the area as 'evidence' of BL. "
----- to which I can only add ...... "huh ?"
as for your other useless trollish comments (such as): "For the record..... We don't even know if that tent didn't get ripped up in KNOWN high winds on this slope for WEEKS before being found. Again... Look at a flag on a pole thats been up a while. God only knows what gear the tent could have scraped against while flappy flap flappin. NOT TO MENTION, Russian forum says the first on scene of tent (more collage kids) literally ripped open the side of the freaking tent to look at the contents. Hmmmmm..... Vodka gooooooood. Remember that sheet? THEY DRANK THEIR DANG ALCOHOL!. "
so my thoughts are: ...... um ....... that was alcohol for cleaning cuts and etc. -- only a complete fool would even think of drinking it in the cold (well, come to think of it, you did !)
and lastly: many comments and etc. are citing other posts and web-sites as if they were fact -- such as that the first military personnel covered up all the "real" evidence of the secret weapons test .......... or the yeti (I forget which)
Enjoy your alcohol ........
KMM
24-08-2017 00:49 (GMT)
even space aliens or yeti bleed. (I think ....) some fools would have us believe in space aliens or yeti or attacking locals or even drunken fights on LSD over women " YOU LEFT OUT BL AGAIN, it fits right into these categories
KMM
24-08-2017 00:45 (GMT)
john wolfe. there is nothing about you that intimidates me. . your BL theory is the biggest load of BS I have run across, Never has it been observed like YOU say it acted in recorded history. maybe you are the one that should look at UFO, alien abductions sites to see if you can bolster it !
John Wolfe
24-08-2017 00:42 (GMT)
One last note: I often see that people examine the minutia of an incident (or an experiment) so closely that they miss the BIG picture -- the tent section mentions that there were weapons (axes and knives) that the hikers did not use -- or would be useless against an exploding ball of light -- but not against attackers ....... even space aliens or yeti bleed. (I think ....) The hikers appear to have run from something and we all are trying to figure out what that something was -- some fools would have us believe in space aliens or yeti or attacking locals or even drunken fights on LSD over women -- I prefer to think this is a very interesting event that has a rational explanation, and, as I now have formed an opinion, my next step will be to see if there was any follow-up scientific study, and was that (study) published in Soviet scientific papers. I thank Nigel and a few others for their helpful comments.
John Wolfe
24-08-2017 00:29 (GMT)
I suggest we all re-read the "tent" section -- its very informative :
--- shows the tent was NOT positioned with opening uphill
--- shows the footprints as seen by the initial investigation --- note that the footprint is like a negative image with the wind blowing away all the loose snow, leaving behind the foot impression -- good enough a month later to show a boot print.
some footprints are closer together than others , showing that some of the hikers might have been injured by that time and walking more slowly; others are much further apart. There are about four clear print-sets (maybe a fifth) showing they walked or ran on top of each other's footprints -- the distance looks like they were walking slowly but as I have much experience walking in sub-zero (Fahrenheit) snow (over 65 years) I would suggest that "walking" prints would show more blurring or dragging of feet as opposed to the hard and straight-down prints seen in these impressions.
(note to loose shorts or loose canyon or whatever you fancy your-loose-self as --- there are many UFO sites for you to troll on, why not go there and spare the rest of us the useless comments -- some of us are genuinely interested in this incident)
KMM
24-08-2017 00:26 (GMT)
john wolfe, read under the "tent" section "Members of the group walked in a single file with a tall men walking in the back. His footprints partially covered footprints of his friends who walked in front of him. Overall the path gave an impression of organized and uneventful descent down the slope of the mountain. Several trails would deviate from the general direction, but then rejoin the group. Other footprints were also discovered and photographed."
KMM
24-08-2017 00:21 (GMT)
to John Wolfe : yeah, what he said (Loose-Cannon)
Loose-Cannon
23-08-2017 23:54 (GMT)
"So ...... how many years have you studied plasma physics ? Have you been to a very cold climate and lived there for years? OUTDOORS ? Have you gone mountain climbing -- or even winter hiking ? even once ? tell me about it or quit wasting everyone's time"
Are you freaking kidding me? In all my years I have never seen a more arrogant bobbleheaded know-it-all king-all-mighty high-horse or straight up asshole statement. Just who the $&@# do you think you are? KMM don't deserve your shit, and I suggest you check the ego at the address bar.
If you feel you have reached this message in error.... Please refresh your browser and go intercourse yourself.
and THAT was taken on a clear day ! No storm but high winds ! -- scrubbing any deep snow off the hilltop / hillside.
Loose-Cannon
23-08-2017 23:41 (GMT)
"and note that as you add layers of nonsense to a theory -- that theory becomes increasingly improbable and approaches impossible ."
Yup... Just like the fireball theory. You guys will literally attempt to use the mating season of field mice in the area as 'evidence' of BL.
All the russian reports I have read suggest they left the tent on the side facing UP the slope which would be directly towards said BL..... It sure as hell wasn't between the tent and treeline! Also, the footprints spread out away from the tent in all directions before coming together in single file some distance from the tent, and they say WALKING... I would think one think nearly impossible to botch is measurements between foot steps indicating stride.
KMM... The 'running in panic' theory is completely unproven but would conveniently support a BL narrative.
For the record..... We don't even know if that tent didn't get ripped up in KNOWN high winds on this slope for WEEKS before being found. Again... Look at a flag on a pole thats been up a while. God only knows what gear the tent could have scraped against while flappy flap flappin. NOT TO MENTION, Russian forum says the first on scene of tent (more collage kids) literally ripped open the side of the freaking tent to look at the contents. Hmmmmm..... Vodka gooooooood. Remember that sheet? THEY DRANK THEIR DANG ALCOHOL!.
Point being..... Even the 'escape from tent in slashing panic' is suspect for heavy doubt. Hell, blonde chicky in her diary talked about having to sew up all the rips they been putting in it.
There are VERY few facts in this incident.
John Wolfe
23-08-2017 23:25 (GMT)
note to KMM -- your post to me doesn't have a link (re: walking calmly) please repost.
also, sorry if my years if study intimidates you -- that's your problem not mine.
So ...... how many years have you studied plasma physics ? Have you been to a very cold climate and lived there for years? OUTDOORS ? Have you gone mountain climbing -- or even winter hiking ? even once ? tell me about it or quit wasting everyone's time.
KMM
23-08-2017 23:19 (GMT)
John Wolfe 23-08-2017 21:50 (GMT) note to KMN -- please provide some links to those "walking calmly" fairy-tales . Most of what is on the internet is rubbish -- whether about this incident or anything else. for example 9 - 11 theories suggest everything from government plots to secret weapons testing to the devil to the Jews to ....... have they mentioned the yeti yet ???
You left out ball lightning......
John Wolfe
23-08-2017 23:18 (GMT)
here is the video of a recent walk on that hill-side but in good weather and in the daytime -- as you can see, the hikers ran full tilt downhill (the wind was also at their backs -- see other video) and into a rock-strewn hill-side: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOVmADGlX2Y&t=552s and another video of winter time (Feb. 5th, 2014) in the area:
which shows the snow in the area is not very deep and the downhill path tends to cause the man in the video to walk faster than normal -- imagine running for your life. If you stop it at 1:14 you can see how shallow the boot-prints are and the direction from which the hikers came, The flags mark evidence points - such as bodies.
and yet another video of the area showing shallow footprints and also the snow markings demonstrating the general direction of the wind (downhill toward the ravine) You can hear the wind even on that nice day.
Carol 06-29-2017 17:20 (GMT) Really like this website. Very informative. I have worked with trauma patients of all kinds for about 40 years (its my job). I have some thoughts on the patterns of trauma seen in these individuals.
First of all explosion: There are three major mechanisms for explosive trauma to humans. Overpressure: this high pressure wave extends outward from the primary area. As a rule if one person in an area dies from this type of trauma, the others are at equal risk. A tent would not provide protection. Typical of over pressure injuries are blast lung (bloody pulmonary edema, perforated bowel. Cerebral edema but no skull fractures. Perforated eardrums. Usually a pressure wave in air causes lung and brain trauma, while one in water causes bowel injuries. Shrapnel causes penetrating injuries not really seen here.
note that Carol mentions that a blast tends to give similar injuries to people standing in the same area / spot / side by side / perhaps watching balls of light coming toward them. We have at least two hikers with the same rib-cage injury - and on the same side (standing next to each other - facing the same way) In fact several of the hikers have injuries on the same side (for example: the skull fracture on NTB)
once again: most posts are suggesting we believe in the fantastic (space aliens, Soviet plots or non-existent weapons tests, or yeti ...etc) please read:
and note that as you add layers of nonsense to a theory -- that theory becomes increasingly improbable and approaches impossible .
KMM
23-08-2017 22:32 (GMT)
wolfe, read through THIS site it mentions several places the tracks showed them proceeding calmly down the slope
KMM
23-08-2017 22:28 (GMT)
by the way, I have read through all the comments when I started looking around here
KMM
23-08-2017 22:24 (GMT)
"Once again: read ALL of my posts as I have already answered many of these questions before"
I didn't know I was talking to an expert who knows it all. How was all this body heat they expended by running in deep snow replaced ? Why do the tracks that were there not show them as running ?
John Wolfe
23-08-2017 21:59 (GMT)
note to KMN: the snow at the wind-blown top of the hill could be both hard (it was February -- in Siberia !) and with top snow blown off from the wind storm. I was running in the snow that was about / or less than knee deep -- PLEASE GO TO MY VIDEO POSTS OF WALKING IN THE AREA IN FEBRUARY -- see below -- a few days below. The boot / snow penetration from walking was only a few inches deep in the initial hill-top -- while bare feet would tend to penetrate a few inches deeper it would not penetrate down to the ground, or else we would see multiple foot bottom injuries consistent with running on a rocky hill-side.
Once again: read ALL of my posts as I have already answered many of these questions before.
John Wolfe
23-08-2017 21:50 (GMT)
note to KMN -- please provide some links to those "walking calmly" fairy-tales . Most of what is on the internet is rubbish -- whether about this incident or anything else. for example 9 - 11 theories suggest everything from government plots to secret weapons testing to the devil to the Jews to ....... have they mentioned the yeti yet ???
KMM
23-08-2017 21:48 (GMT)
Running in deep snow would sap all your strength, no way you can do it for any length of time at all. they would not of even made it to the tree line running. Running and breathing heavy takes a LOT of body heat
John Wolfe
23-08-2017 21:45 (GMT)
note to Nigel: thinks for the quote: " it’s shown the damage to Tibo’s head could have been the result of the throwing, fall or jettisoning of the body. I don’t believe these wounds could have been the result of Tibo simply falling from the level of his own height, i.e. falling and hitting his head. The extensive, depressed, multi-splintered (broken fornix and base of the skull) fracture could be the result of an impact of an automobile moving at high speed." The trouble is, that kind of injury does indeed happen from hitting a rock while RUNNING -- hit by an automobile "at high speed" would produce much more head / brain trauma, as well as a broken neck. I think this could be a BL injury. (an air burst or something like that, next to and close to the head)
KMM
23-08-2017 21:43 (GMT)
John Wolfe 23-08-2017 21:26 (GMT) note to KMN: the photos of the footsteps show they were running and not walking calmly -- also, (as I have done this in winter conditions) running generates a lot of internal body heat and would have helped keep the hikers alive in the snow longer than we would expect -- they die when they stop running.
No one walks calmly from certain death / injury -- you wouldn't either.
Everything I have read says proceeded down the slope CALMLY
John Wolfe
23-08-2017 21:37 (GMT)
This web-site is crap !! It failed to post yet another of my comments !
here's the gist of it: After studying BL for over 2 1/2 years I think at least most of it is generated by a rapidly spinning Magnetic field -- set in motion by some aspect of the electrical field aspects of regular lightning -- however this does NOT explain all of the actions of BL -- there could be multiple causes for what we see as BL.
Nigel Evans
23-08-2017 21:27 (GMT)
@John Wolfe - On May 28, 1959, the Junior Counselor of Justice and Criminal Prosecutor of Sverdlovsk region, Lev Ivanov, led the interrogation of an expert with the observance of Article 169-173 of the Criminal Procedural Code of the RSFSR. The expert gave the following information about himself: Last name, first name, patronymic: Vozrozhdenniy Boris Alekseevich. Year of birth: 1922. Place of birth: Gomel, BSSR. Education: Show when and where you graduated from school: Graduated in 1954 from the Sverdlovsk State Medical Institute. Show when and where you received your special training or production skills in your specialty: In the department of forensic pathology. Have you received any awards for any work, writings, or inventions in your field? No. Experience in your field: Doctor since 1954. Currently employed as: A forensic pathologist. Party affiliation (if a member of the CPSU, show rank): No party. Prior criminal convictions: None. Permanent address (exact address and telephone number): Kollektivnaya ul 5, apt 15, Sverdlovsk. Question: From what kind of force could Tibo have received such damage? Answer: In the conclusion, it’s shown the damage to Tibo’s head could have been the result of the throwing, fall or jettisoning of the body. I don’t believe these wounds could have been the result of Tibo simply falling from the level of his own height, i.e. falling and hitting his head. The extensive, depressed, multi-splintered (broken fornix and base of the skull) fracture could be the result of an impact of an automobile moving at high speed. This kind of trauma could have occurred if Tibo had been thrown and fallen and hit his head against rocks, ice, etc., by a gust of strong wind. Question: Is it possible that Tibo was hit by a rock that was in someone’s hands? Answer: In this case, there would have been damage to the soft tissue, and this was not evident. Question: How long could Tibo have lived after the trauma. Could he have moved on his own, talked, etc.? Answer: After this trauma, Tibo would have had a severe concussion; that is, he would have been in an unconscious state. Moving him would have been difficult and, close to the end, movement would not have been possible. I believe he would not have been able to move even if he had been helped. He could only have been carried or dragged. He could have shown signs of life for 2-3 hours.
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (pp. 98-99). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
John Wolfe
23-08-2017 21:26 (GMT)
note to KMN: the photos of the footsteps show they were running and not walking calmly -- also, (as I have done this in winter conditions) running generates a lot of internal body heat and would have helped keep the hikers alive in the snow longer than we would expect -- they die when they stop running.
No one walks calmly from certain death / injury -- you wouldn't either.
John Wolfe
23-08-2017 21:21 (GMT)
still having problems with this web-site / or my service provider -- it just erased my comment as I was writing it.
Please go to the web-site Nigel suggested and READ IT ! It describes a reported BL from about150 years ago. The BL goes past one person without injuring and then kills 3 0r 4 -- then exiting the building through a (closed?) window -- putting only a small hole in it but smashing all the other windows in the small school-house!
John Wolfe
23-08-2017 21:02 (GMT)
note to HK: only seeing a BL injure one of my camp-mates AND then seeing it come for me ! If it entered my tent I would slash my out (if necessary from the back of the tent) with the BL at the front. Once out I would run like hell !
PLEASE ! read all of my comments -- ie to others as well as yourself
John Wolfe
23-08-2017 20:55 (GMT)
Nigel -- I could not find any mention of damage to: " the fornix broken (this lies at the centre of the brain" as your post of today states. Where did you get this information? I does sound plausible.
Nigel Evans
23-08-2017 20:49 (GMT)
@Loose-Cannon - post on 20-08-2017 17:11
Nigel Evans
23-08-2017 20:32 (GMT)
@KMM - it's my speculation that it was the "toilet flashlight" left in a known convenient place outside for those who needed it during the night. If true it's another indicator of the speed of the exit that they didn't pick it up.
Loose-Cannon
23-08-2017 19:55 (GMT)
"well if conjecture isn't acceptable wrt the DPI then i think you're going to find yourself a bit isolated..."
Oh I'm fully aware most of this is based on conjecture. Its a matter of how much bs is used to cover up the stank of the bs before it, and then then coming to a grand conclusion that 'has' to be the best scenario given the trail of bs.
"Btw the objects in the photos are not conjecture, they are real. The conjecture is that they are not of genuine light sources but something else like damage or faked."
Yeah.... No crap. Never did I state the physical existence of film does not exist..... Thats beyond stupid. You can easily say 'The conjecture is that they 'ARE' of genuine light sources and not something else like damage or faked'. See how this works?
"You're just not understanding it, i'm not saying that the BL moves around. As stated before it doesn't have to leave the tent area. It could have burnt the cedar2 at the tent and then just stayed there preventing them from returning. Then the background microwave energy that causes the BL does the rest - raises the temp of the snow causing the den collapse and debilitates the returning3."
Yeah... I don't recall you ever stating your theory having the fireball stalker stay at the tent location and not move..... Your all over the map, Literally. Unfortunately, even 'if' mr.fireball was stationary, it would have had to make THREE separate attacks on the hikers to explain your theory... (Clothing from cedar2 found on rev4 etc). Only NOW.... It does it from a mile + away.
I am beginning to think your theory is beginning to look a whole lot like this.... And its no better then the Yeti assassin. https://youtu.be/X3KV4fLSNoU
KMM
23-08-2017 19:17 (GMT)
I think interaction with another group explains best of any theories. (KGB/CIA, Mansi) ? I can not see the hikers calmly walking down the mountain the way they were undressed for any other reason then a gun at their back. I then think things were staged to look most like an accident happened. How was a flashlight found on TOP of the tent if it was still standing when they left ? (tossed there later)
Nigel Evans
23-08-2017 17:11 (GMT)
@No-Conjecture-Allowed - well if conjecture isn't acceptable wrt the DPI then i think you're going to find yourself a bit isolated... Scientific proofs of what happened are a bit thin on the ground. Btw the objects in the photos are not conjecture, they are real. The conjecture is that they are not of genuine light sources but something else like damage or faked.
You're just not understanding it, i'm not saying that the BL moves around. As stated before it doesn't have to leave the tent area. It could have burnt the cedar2 at the tent and then just stayed there preventing them from returning. Then the background microwave energy that causes the BL does the rest - raises the temp of the snow causing the den collapse and debilitates the returning3.
Loose-Cannon
23-08-2017 16:12 (GMT)
"Missed saying that Ivanov and the Mansi were of the same opinion.."
Oh... The botched investigator that wasn't even interested while on site, and one of the suspected groups. Ill add that to the list of unreliable conjecture.
Loose-Cannon
23-08-2017 16:10 (GMT)
Again... I would appreciate if you quote my sentences in their entirety to preserve the full context.
You are attempting to explain conjecture with... More conjecture. Several instances of this later develops major contradictions and inconsistencies in your theory, but you claim facts.
Warm spots, burnt tree tops, sightings, objects in photos..... ALL conjecture. A great example of this is... Now you claim that BL not only chased them to the den once killing cedar2, came back a second time to melt the ceiling of the den, went away again long enough enabling the ceiling to solidify into ice, only to return AGAIN to finish them off by collapsing the den causing blunt force skull crushing.
Weak..... You cant just pick and choose the conjecture you like and ignore everything else.
Nigel Evans
23-08-2017 15:17 (GMT)
Missed saying that Ivanov and the Mansi were of the same opinion....
Nigel Evans
23-08-2017 14:41 (GMT)
"The only fact I see here, is the fact NOBODY knows how, when, or why that den collapsed (if it collapsed), nor who was in it and what injuries may or may not have happened in the process. Fact " Fact - The den had four seats and the ravine four are so named because there are...?.
"So... The ceiling snow is supposedly hard enough to bash in a skull in a very isolated area" Fact - in addition to the side fractures given on this site the base of NTB's skull was also cracked (anterior cranial fossa) and the fornix broken (this lies at the centre of the brain). I'm not qualified in determining cause of this trauma but i'm not seeing a kick in the head here, more that a broader stronger higher energy crushing force has been received. Just as the pathologist said, like in a car accident.
"but yet you claim ball lightning melted the den..." Fact - Scientific research at Hessdalen is connecting the lights there with microwaves as theorised by some physicists. The theory is that ball lightning is the product of the fact that the whole area is being bathed in electromagnetic radiation mainly in the microwave spectrum generated in the atmosphere from high winds. It's the microwave energy that softened the snow just as it created the hot spot and enabled footprints to last nearly 4 weeks. (snow closer to it's melt point compresses better) and produced a layer of snow on top of the tent that was so hard that they damaged the tent chipping through it (thawed then refrozen).
"I call major BS. ... " There's a lot of small pieces of evidence that say otherwise, brown faces, bleeding head orifices, massive burn, blackened digits, burnt treetops, parallel scratches, facial marks, three people expire within 330 meters climbing back up, possible collapse of the den. All can be explained by microwave radiation. True they can have other explanations but that all of them can be explained by this one thing is significant imo. Then we have eye witness accounts of sightings and then we have....... PHOTOGRAPHS!!!
Too many pieces of evidence all pointing in one direction to be ignored. They went there to photograph the lights, they did so and it cost them their lives. BL's not BS.
Loose-Cannon
23-08-2017 12:48 (GMT)
"Collapse of the snow den causing those injuries is perfectly plausible"
I call major BS. ... The likely hood that skull was bashed in with anything other then a blunt and forceful object is slim to none. Remember how we talked about 'reaching'.... Like with go-go-gadget arms?
Loose-Cannon
23-08-2017 12:41 (GMT)
So... The ceiling snow is supposedly hard enough to bash in a skull in a very isolated area, but yet you claim ball lightning melted the den... Pretty weak man.
The only fact I see here, is the fact NOBODY knows how, when, or why that den collapsed (if it collapsed), nor who was in it and what injuries may or may not have happened in the process. Fact
Could have been an explosion, lightning bolt, earth tremor collapsing the den.
Nigel Evans
23-08-2017 09:32 (GMT)
We'll never know HOW it happened. All we can do is discuss what COULD have happened. That is fit a theory to the fact profile.
Collapse of the snow den causing those injuries is perfectly plausible. Particularly if the microwave theory is correct and the snow bank was being warmed up, that would both destabilise the roof's structural integrity and substantially increase it's density. http://www.islandnet.com/~see/weather/almanac/arc2007/alm07feb.htm
Loose-Cannon
23-08-2017 01:07 (GMT)
Snow ceiling of man-cave. Roflmfao. How they get the boulder tiles to stick up thar!?!
I don't buy it.... Nope... Refuse to drink the koolaid.
Nigel Evans
22-08-2017 20:57 (GMT)
@ste - the authorities closed the mountain for three years afterwards. Maybe they did look into it.
Nigel Evans
22-08-2017 20:56 (GMT)
@HK - as said before they might have :-
- heard a loud rattling, maybe getting deafening. - felt pain. - getting warm or too hot. - suffered burns. - suffered an explosion. - could have seen the tips of the tent light up with St Elmos fire.
Once outside they couldn't just hang around near the tent due to the winchill, so the choice was return into the tent or head for the shelter of the forest and build a fire.
ste
22-08-2017 20:40 (GMT)
Its a tough 1,dont believe initial theroies,somefin appened,not sure wot.main fing for me,the russians dont wanna look into it again.wot does that tell you?cum on guys,its pretty obvious,work it owt guys
H.K.
22-08-2017 20:14 (GMT)
John and Nigel. I see both of you favor the ball lightning (BL) theory (sorry when I named it lightning ball ;-)).
What I do not understand is how a BL can scare you so much that you leave the tent even without boots. What is sure they all must have known that they go into a life-threatening situation when leaving the tent. And they did not go only some meter away, but nearly one mile. Even when assuming the BL caused all the burning injuries that are mentioned in the autopsy report, they were surely painful but not deadly.
John, you seem experienced in camping outside in very cold nights. What would frighten you so much that you leave your tent only lightly dressed?
Nigel Evans
22-08-2017 20:11 (GMT)
Rye bread and fireballs? I think i can say with confidence that's an original theory....
"Sooo... What was the blunt object that caused the caved in skull? Don't tell me 'it was the snow". I don't buy it. "
It was the snow.
From the roof of the den. This is sooo... easy.
Loose-Cannon
22-08-2017 19:03 (GMT)
Sooo... What was the blunt object that caused the caved in skull? Don't tell me 'it was the snow". I don't buy it.
Loose-Cannon
22-08-2017 17:34 (GMT)
Dyatlov will kill you all!!!
Throw in some rye bread, with a side order of fireball. Mystery solved.
Nigel Evans
22-08-2017 10:23 (GMT)
@John Wolfe - the tent had two modes, high (for sheltered areas), low (for exposed areas). They pitched it low that night so presumably had no intention of using the stove, not that they carried firewood anyway. Although out of their wet outer clothes they left behind their dry felt boots (valenki) which would have been close at hand for toilet trips, it was a sudden departure.
John Wolfe
22-08-2017 00:50 (GMT)
note to Declan Clark --- there are complete radiation reports elsewhere, showing two things:
1) the radiation was just about 2 or 3 times background -- that is fairly low and not harmful;
2) the radiation was on shirt sleeves and other places where accidental contamination occurs in a lab.
John Wolfe
22-08-2017 00:45 (GMT)
note to web-master: you need to put the comment box at the top of the page --- down at the bottom it is almost useless
John Wolfe
21-08-2017 23:23 (GMT)
Nigel -- that wordpress site crashed my computer
Anna -- three points:
1) that diary is as fake as a Mormon three dollar bill ! It mentions several faked stories from other sources, all in one "diary" (extra hiker trailing them -- extra tent -- words that no one else reported in real diaries -- staying two days on hillside -- group members disappearing -- LSD overdose -- and by the way, in a snowstorm you have a whiteout where all you see is the snow blowing and not pitch darkness)
2) not lightning but BALL lightning -- they are related but not the same thing -- if any were hit by a regular lightning discharge there would be obvious injuries that all medical personal could / would plainly identify.
3) from your post: "They wouldn't build a den to hide from a fire ball" -- of course they wouldn't -- but they would to shelter from the sub zero temps.
Nigel -- There would be too much wind to run the stove - it was found in its packed state, unused.
also: I have tried to resubmit a comment several times but my DSL provider times-out if you don't change pages.
note to all: they were undressed of their heavy and wet over clothing -- wearing just under clothes and some dry clothes with dry socks -- I have done this in camping in northern Wyoming two winters in a row (temp: from 25F down to minus 45F with most days hovering around zero F ) I wasn't camping but working -- spent two entire winter out in that cold with no heat. You learn to remove wet clothing. In their normally heated tent they would dry by morning -- socks must be dry so those without extra dry pairs would have to bed down without socks -- or their feet would freeze by morning. My feet nearly froze one night even with dry socks. (was minus 47F that night)
also: the two photos Anna posted -- please note, those are log houses partially built -- as can be seen from the partially completed roof and only some of the windows framed in / installed -- no collapsing roofs. This was not an old abandoned village, but a village from which the builders fled. I know this as we were building log homes in Wyoming for over ten years. I also own a log home. Perhaps they had some ball lightning in the area and so abandoned that 1/2 built village because of the strange balls of light -- it wouldn't be abandoned normally -- and I'm guessing the scientists/engineers/geologists were looking for copper and not gold.
HK -- and everyone else -- if you go to the two posts of the hillside I posted a few days ago you will see that the chance of an "avalanche" ...... is ZERO ! and they would have known that, given their position.
I suggest you start at 1:30 and then skip around (to see various points of interest -- eg. "Boot Rock" - Mt. Orten and Dyatlov Pass)
also: I suggest you read / re-read my posts and consider that I spent a few years reading text-books on lightning and ball lightning, going to web-sites, and considering various (but very bad) wacco-theories ..... like yeti or space aliens, or murderous Mansi. Please note that the Mansi named the two mountains: "Dead Mountain" and "Don't Go There" for real reasons -- including that their history speaks of a hunting party that all died up there, and of evil spirits -- which could be ball lightning.
again -- everyone -- please read up on Occam's Razor -- see my post or google it.
Nigel Evans
21-08-2017 22:03 (GMT)
@HK - "So almost impossible to discuss about it when you know nothing."
I disagree, the luxury of ball lightning is that because it exhibits so many behaviours this makes it very flexible. E.g. rollers were unofficially reported to the mourning families by the investigation team. So maybe the ravine four were crushed by one? See how easy it is to make BL fit.
Yes i'd agree the diary is a hoax.
@Declan Clark - What part about radiation?
Declan Clark
21-08-2017 21:18 (GMT)
There are too many typos throughout the entirety of this site to actually take it seriously; I understand that English is not your first language, but still. Almost nothing here is backed up by sources or proof, IF the part about the radiation is true then how did they become exposed to that much radiation? It's almost all speculation and because of popular media it's been blown out of proportion and taken beyond reason.
H.K.
21-08-2017 20:22 (GMT)
Hello again. To read Zinaida’ diary is very gripping and interesting. And the whole style looks like written by a young woman. Such a good short story, the one who wrote it should consider to become an author. But I think, and hope you agree, that it is a hoax.
Several times more than one tent is mentioned, it does not match with the clear evidence (one tent found by the search party). Then, if there would have been a snow storm, the tent has to be covered with snow (ok could be melted down by the sun), but at least there would not be any footsteps next to the tent. If some panicked as described, they would run away in several directions, but the footsteps prove that they left the area more or less well-ordered. And also the rest does not fit, how could the four hikers come to the ravine buried under some meters of snow? And that someone in the sky calls the names of the hikers and then tosses them through the air? For me this sounds a little bit too odd to be true. But a good story, and maybe some parts are true (for example the father of the author was actually some part of the search member). You know, if you want to tell a lie, built it up with as much true facts as possible.
@Nigel: I informed me further about ball lightning. Was is true, state of the today’s scientific knowledge is that ball lightning exists, but happens very rare. But there is no other agreement. Some sources tell that the ball is moving up and down, some tell that it is moving to the right and to the left. Some sources tell that the ball can pass almost everything without damage, some sources tell that it burns everything that comes in contact with and can hurt (and even kill) humans. Some tell it vanishes without a noise, some tell it vanishes with a large explosion. So this is the problem with ball lightning. It exists, but we know as good as nothing about it. So almost impossible to discuss about it when you know nothing. What is quite clear in my opinion is that a burning stove (that was probably unused) or a fire can never produce such a lot of energy to trigger a ball lightning.
Regarding the ball lightning theory I don’t think someone in the tent was hit by the ball. If a ball of energy hits a human in a tent and some other human are around, there have to be evidences as massive burning marks. But the ball could be around them (when the photos of K are real they look like shot from the inside of the tent). Maybe first the ball (or the balls) did not look dangerous but at some point the hikers realized they are in a great danger. Maybe because the balls accidental came closer to the tent. That would prove first making the photos and then panicking and cutting the tent. Some sources say that when there is a ball lightning, there also is a storm around. Could be a hint why the footsteps look like normal going. Because they wanted to run, but because of the storm they were only able to move normal. But in a storm in the winter wouldn’t there be snowfall that must have hide the footsteps? Not necessarily I would say.
Nevertheless, what I can’t understand is how a ball lightning can be such a danger to the hikers that they all left the tent is a hurry. You only leave your tent in such a night with only few clothes when you are in a great danger. If the ball hit no one, they could not have known that the ball is a danger to them (because surely if there was a ball lightning, the hikers did not know anything about it). But if the ball hits someone and that scared them so that they left the tent, the hit must have been very powerful. And this would have been noticed in the report. It is really hard for me to imagine how it could have happened.
Nigel Evans
21-08-2017 10:07 (GMT)
@Anna
"Semyon was trying to light a fire inside of his tent " "At first I thought Semyon had managed to light a fire inside his tent but the moment I looked outside, the light vanished." "I was packing supplies in my tent" "I heard a tent being ripped and when I looked outside"
@Nigel.I didn`t see anywhere the author to have mentioned multiple tents.I think the tent was divided in two sections.
Nigel Evans
21-08-2017 07:33 (GMT)
@Anna - the author is refering to multiple tents? Yudin didn't turn back with extra food, he said goodbye at the outpost? It's rubbish.
Loose-Cannon
21-08-2017 03:23 (GMT)
Dyatlov did it, at the treeline, with a big stick.
Anna Yordanova
20-08-2017 23:20 (GMT)
I cannot say Nigel.I found it very interesting.I was looking to find more information about the magnetic field on Kolat Syakhl when I came across this article.I can't prove its authenticity.
I don't know Nigel.The man kept this diary for 50 years and gave it to his brother shortly before his death.The last entry is fascinating and describes the moment when the tent was slushed.It describes the orbs in the sky too.Apparently that night two Yuries vanished and Dyatlov asked all of to go out and look for them.
When the rescuers found the bodies under the cedar tree one of them found Kolmogorova 's diary and hid it. In this diary you can see Zina' s entries in the diary unknown to anyone involved in the official case. Zina wrote that Yudin is very suck. He fainted two times. When he was living, he shouted "You are all gonners! Dyatlov killed you all"! I am sorry guys but I could not copy the link(I am on my phone now) The diary was provided by the nephew of the man who found it. Later on when I have access to my laptop I will send a link.
I mentioned the stove Nigel ,because it was the only source in the tent that could produce heat.What else could be a source of heat in this circumstances?
Nigel Evans
20-08-2017 20:36 (GMT)
@HK :-
"But surely it is a hint that there was something unusual or at least they thought." AK (nuclear industry) and SZ (KGB) were sensitive assets and there was concern of defection or abduction. Once they found the ravine four they closed the case against Ivanov's wishes.
Question one - i'm not qualified to give a professional answer on this one. All i know is that YK had a massive burn on his lower leg 31cm long with charring and with the skin blown open. There are a number of areas where the pathology seems unsatisfactory, LD's tongue, AK's neck and perhaps YD/YK's injuries (charred digits frostbite or burns?). YD's possible pulmonary edema has several possible causes including electrocution it seems. Also he had singed hair. You are assuming an electrical discharge but microwave burns are another possibility.
Question two - No as stated below it could pass through the tent harmlessly and just burn human tissue with microwaves.
@Anna - i think you would need a bit more energy than a stove
Nigel Evans
20-08-2017 20:16 (GMT)
@John - sometimes when i click submit the form doesn 't succeed in posting the contents to the website. But if i click on "Add comment" again the text is still present in the textbox for a reattempt. So i never lose a post. When using Firefox.
Anna Yordanova
20-08-2017 20:01 (GMT)
I agree with H. K. If the cause of death was lightning strike this would be noticed by the pathologists working on the case. Lightnings in winter is very rare phenomenon called thundersnow. The snow is not conductor but insulator of electricity, due to the low density. So, in order to have a lightning we must have a warm air entering the cold air, moving fast in vertical direction. They lit the fire which provoked baroclinic pressure and therefore lightning. In this case it is possible that the ones near the cedar were struck by a lightning, but does not explain why they have left the tent when the stove wasn't even used and didn't create warm air in order to create baroclinic pressure. To John I read your posts once you posted them
H.K.
20-08-2017 19:39 (GMT)
Hello Nigel. I have to admin such a large search party seems a little bit oversized for a simple alpine accident. On the other side, it were nine people that died at once. But surely it is a hint that there was something unusual or at least they thought.
The ball lightning theory is very interesting. Also there are a lot of other sources that deal with this topic.
Question one: If someone (e.g. the two Yuris’s) were hit and injured by ball lightning, wouldn’t this be noticed in the autopsy report? OK some of them had burning injuries on the hand, but these injuries happened when they tried to warm up on the fire. Hit by a ball lightning with 300.000 volt must cause dead or heavy injuries. But nothing mentioned in the report.
Question two: If a ball lightning hit the tent, or someone inside, wouldn’t it have the impact similar to a normal lightning strike? In this case I would expect burning marks and devastation at the tent.
Nigel Evans
20-08-2017 17:11 (GMT)
@HK/Anna - because the DPI group included sensitive assets the Soviet hierarchy deployed significant resources in the investigation, something like 30 men from police teams/kgb teams and alpine experts based there for months. No criticism of the tent pitch or placement was ever made, the slope was too shallow for avalanche risk, they knew what they were doing.
Q. and you fear that you could be buried in an avalanche, what would you do? A. Cuddle the girl next to you? Ok joking, as said before you'd be safer inside. The tent and it's contents would weigh close to a metric tonne and it would take some avalanche to move that a long way and you'd have a far better chance when it stopped moving, more airspace for breathing and escape.
"Must have been a natural force, as the original report says." - yes absolutely.
Q. but outside they calm down and go down the hill in a group and almost in a row A. what if they were assisting two injured members? The BL theory has several versions, one is that YD and YK (who clearly die first) suffer electrocution at the tent. This leaves them both groggy with YK badly limping as the pain sets in. So they need an able bodied guy each side of them to get them down the hill and at walking pace. Hence the side by side nature of the steps. Also the report definately talks about 8 OR 9 sets of footprints. This could be explained as YK sometimes making little contact with the ground. It also explains why they left so urgently in their socks and couldn't return whilst the BL stayed at the tent.
Q. A lightning ball inside or next to the tent? A. Ball lightning is famous for passing through solid objects without any damage, windows, even pressurised aircraft fuselages. Or it can demolish buildings, no one can explain it's behaviour.
Q. maybe because of the stove A. the stove was found unused.
Q. For example the hikers did not cut the tent, but the search persons did. A. the rescue team admitted to damaging the tent but not the large cuts made from the inside.
"but I see no direct evidence that proves it wrong". We'll have to agree to disagree. , whatever forced them to flee also forced them to stay away for a considerable period and seek alternative means of shelter. Fear of avalanche doesn't cut it imo, as Einstein said.
John Wolfe
20-08-2017 16:57 (GMT)
Hi everybody, I tried to post a few answers to questions on both Friday and Saturday but I have Frontier Telephone (the absolute worst internet / DSL service in the USA, they are corporate scumbags) anyway, here goes:
Anna -- please read my previous posts about the terrain and go to the links to see videos of the area in both winter conditions and spring. Ball lightning is still poorly understood and would be back in 1959 -- however it has been reported that it exhibits a "directed" behavior in that it is attracted to metal objects and conductors, as well as nodes in an electrical field. A tent, with a metal stove in it, surrounded by a fairly even and smooth field of several feet of snow (and in high winds) would be a node -- as would any human (also a conductor) standing outside the tent and looking at the strange balls of light. This is why you should not stand under a tree in a lightning storm -- humans conduct better than a tree so the electrical energy would jump from the tree to the human -- killing any it hits. Ball lightning has been reported that has both killed on contact and/or exploded on contact (in one reported case knocking down a stone wall). In the last photos taken there is something like a bright ball of light in the photo which seems to be coming closer to the camera / hiker using the camera. The "last" photo seems to show a ball VERY CLOSE to the camera and there are three dark head-like objects at the bottom edge of the frame. If that BL exploded that close to a person it would account for many of the major injuries (compression injury of the ribcage, injury to the skull, and in one hiker a small tear in his heart). Hikers then retreat into the tent - but BL is known to move both through and around in strange ways -- so it may have entered the tent - the metal stove was found inside and near the entrance of the tent. The only safe way out would be to slash the rear of the tent and flee -- ASAP ! -- which is what they did, not even stopping to dress for the cold nor retrieve their boots. I think the hikers originally thought they were running toward their stash of extra clothing, shoes, felt boot-liners, food and etc. -- however in the confusion ran the path of least resistance: downhill with the wind at their backs. Photos of the area taken by the Russian rescuers show snow blown in that direction. (leaving mini-drifts around small objects, like rocks or footprints) Videos of the tent site in winter snow done in February, decades later, show the same wind blowing in the same direction.
ALSO: the videos posted also show that the hillside was strewn with rocks which would be mostly covered with snow and could account for some of the minor injuries - to hands, arms, legs or face and might even account for some of the skull fractures. Though these skull fractures could also have been caused by BL exploding close to the head (see the "last" photo with the three "heads" at the bottom). Running at full speed in the dark in a Siberian snowstorm, down a rock strewn hill -- if / when you trip over something (remember they are barefoot) you would put your hands in front of you if you could - this might account for many of the hand injuries.
ALSO: an explosion next to your head could cause the fractures seen in some of the skulls. There were very little external body (skin bruising) marks that would indicate the fractures were caused by blunt trauma (like in an attack by persons unknown) -- again indicating an air overpressure and not a weapon or falling against a rock.
The hikers were most likely fascinated by the balls of light and went out of the tent to view, and photograph, and only later realized the danger - retreating into the tent.
No murders by the peaceful Manti, no yeti, no space aliens, no Soviet plot, no KGB, no weapons testing, no rockets, no fight among the hikers -- just a bad place to set up a tent, but then they were in a storm (see photo of setting up the tent) and in a hurry to do so before dark. They probably didn't orient themselves to the slope so that they knew which way was the hut and etc., but oriented the tent to avoid the wind blowing into the hooked opening (no zipper) -- and the wind was so strong they did not set up the stove but left it where the boots were found -- at the tent's opening -- their bedding as far from that wind as possible.
ALSO: the tent is plenty large for the ten original hikers.
ALSO: no avalanche was possible as they were just about at the hill-top of a gentle slope. (again, see my posts of the area, including marking flags where bodies and items were recovered)
ALSO: note that mountain climbers, far more experienced than the nine were, make fatal mistakes all the time -- the sad part of this incident was that all perished in miserable conditions. My heart goes out to them !
LASTLY: please read all of my posts.
H.K.
20-08-2017 15:15 (GMT)
Hello Nigel. You are right, the avalanche or “fear of avalanche” theory has some weak points. I can’t deny it. But everyone says they were so experienced, they knew everything and were not able to make mistakes. And this is proven wrong every day where very experienced people do big mistakes each day. And beyond this, they were experienced but still young. The leader was just 23 old. In our today’s world with 23 you are still a beginner.
Anyways, when you are in a tent with nine people and there is not so much space and you fear that you could be buried in an avalanche, what would you do? Staying there and hoping that the tent will provide some shelter? I would try to get out as fast as I can. But of course, this is speculation.
I think the issue is obvious. Why did they left the tent only with few clothes? It must have been a great danger or at least they thought it is a great danger. But a danger that is only in the area around the tent, in other case they would not have stopped at the cedar and make a fire. And the danger must have appeared after some time, because three of them were going back to the tent. And a danger that reach some hundred meters, because they were about one km away. Beyond this, one question is why did not all go back to the tent? Two answers are possible. First answer is that they were not sure the tent still is there or at least can be reached (e.g. buried under some tons of snow (avalanche) or burned down (lightning ball)). Second answer is that they feared the danger is still there or could be coming back. What I think is clear is that there was no living danger as other human or animals. In this case they would never have stopped at the cedar and made the fire. Must have been a natural force, as the original report says.
What Anna says is of course a good point. They must have been in a hurry, because they cut the tent, but outside they calm down and go down the hill in a group and almost in a row. Again, I can imagine that the hikers acted so because they feared an avalanche. But of course, some weak points. A lightning ball inside or next to the tent? Can’t be proven wrong, but I’m not convinced.
The only thing what really proves the cutting tent and walking down the hill is that they heard or saw something and they thought they are in a great danger. Because of this they cut the tent and outside they are welcomed by other human with machine guns. The men with machine guns guard the nine hikers to the cedar and then leave them alone because it should look like a dead with hypothermia. But makes this sense? I think not.
Another idea I had was something like poison gas in the tent, maybe because of the stove. This explains the hurry to come out of the tent and calming down when you are outside. But surely does not explain why going over a km away to the cedar. Instead it makes sense to cut the whole tent, get all the clothes and other things and move back to the next town.
Of course another explanation is that some facts are no real facts. For example the hikers did not cut the tent, but the search persons did. But if we doubt one fact, we can doubt all facts and each story is possible.
So when I consider all facts (snow, winter, mountain, tent outside, fear and a hurry, going a km away but later coming back) in my opinion it is more likely they were in fear of an avalanche than they fled from a lightning ball. The “fear of avalanche theory” has some weak points (the experienced hikers estimated the situation wrong), but I see no direct evidence that proves it wrong. But of course I won’t claim it’s the true, I simply say I can imagine that it happened so.
Anna Yordanova
20-08-2017 12:54 (GMT)
I am a bit confused.So they have cut the tent to escape,but then when realized that there is no avalanche they just kept walking towards the wood.Why they didn`t return back to the tent where it would be much more safer then in the forest.If they had seen a ball lightning why they didn`t run,but decided to walk in a straight line 500 m?Did the ball lightning hold them hostages?Or it was another humans?
Nigel Evans
20-08-2017 12:31 (GMT)
@HK - hi, welcome to the group.
Q. But back in the 50s did the hikers know this? A. Yes absolutely, these people were mountain experts, the trip would have qualified Dyatlov as a master alpinist or whatever the Russian title was. The route was graded as type 3 - "most difficult".
Q. Did they lose their original track? A. We don't know for sure but it's highly unlikely, the tree (brush) line started only 500m away. All the signs are that they made an intentional detour to observe something. YK's camera was found in the tent on a makeshift tripod. This is very unusual behaviour for a group that have got a bit lost in a whiteout. The slits support this theory.
I have to repeat that if you fear an avalanche getting out of the tent doesn't make you safer, if anything less so. The fear with an avalanche is that if you are lucky enough to not get dashed on rocks you get buried in snow that sets like concrete around you preventing you from digging yourself out. Modern off piste skiers carry an airbag that defeats this danger, creating an airspace that permits movement afterwards. In effect the tent would act as a big airbag. And the weight of everything in the tent would act as an anchor against a weaker avalanche compared to just a single person. Much safer inside than outside imo.
Glad you agree they used the cedar as a lookout even if we can't agree why
Yes the photos are intriguing, imo they must be genuine photos of a "light event" or fakes. The damage theory doesn't hold water, pun intended.
ZK got the furthest because women survive cold better than men, this is well documented. But there are signs of radiation exposure which imo explains the "bunching".
Q. but there are also some facts that speak against it (no evidence at all for this phenomenon, no melted snow. A. Sorry, there are several documented accounts from reliable eye witnesses of lights in this area at that time and then there is the hot spot (search the page).
Ball lightning isn't an invention, it's a well documented phenomenon with thousands of cases. Considering it further the DPI BL theory doesn't actually require the object to move downhill and attack them at the ravine, the 2 yuris could have suffered an electrocution event at the tent as they got out or just fell out of the tree on to the fire concussed and unattended and the ravine 4 just suffered crushing from a collapsed den. All the BL had to do was stay at the tent. The key question to answer is what threat coud make them leave the tent in their socks and keep them away for some time but unafraid to light a fire 1500m away? Fear of avalanche is better than many theories but is too weak imo, as Einstein said :- "As simple as possible but no simpler".
H.K.
20-08-2017 11:17 (GMT)
Hello Nigel. What you write is absolutely true from today’s point of view. We can consider it as a fact that no avalanche hit the tent (otherwise it would be much more damaged). Also the tent was in an area where the risk of an avalanche is very low. But back in the 50s did the hikers know this? Probably no. And they lost their original track, so they could not know exactly where they are. We know it was just end of the day when they built up the tent, so maybe they could not see how far away the top of the slope is. Consider you are sleeping in a tent and suddenly there is a loud rumble and someone next to you cries “an avalanche is coming”. What you would do is grabbing what you can and leave the area as fast as possible.
From today’s point of view I think leaving the tent was the wrong decision. Why? Because the tent is not damaged except the cuts from the hikers. If they would have stayed in the tent, they would have survived. Of course this can’t be proved, but the fact that the tent is not damaged speaks for it.
I can’t see wat speaks against climbing on the cedar. Imagine you are sitting there in the night and you realize that the fire is not enough and if you do nothing you will certainly die. But you know there is a tent with everything you need, but you don’t know if it is still there or under some meters of snow (still assuming they feared an avalanche). And you don’t know exactly where it is. So for me it sounds absolute logical to climb on a tree and look for the tent. And someone did this and saw the tent and because of this three hikers tried to go back to the tent.
Regarding the photos you are correct, I can’t explain them. But as you know, they are very controversial. Even if they were made by a human (and not because of external damage), they are so unclear, that you can interpret everything in the photos that is causing a large light (UFO, lightning ball, plane, atomic bomb, whatever). But of course, if the photos are real, this speaks for some external that is making a large light.
I think that they were found within 330 meters means nothing. They started in a group but Dyatlov gave up first, then Slobodin and then Kolmogorova. Why the woman made the furthest distance? Because on the fire under the cedar the women got the best places.
I think you favor the lightning ball theory. Surely, especially the last photos support the theory, but there are also some facts that speak against it (no evidence at all for this phenomenon, no melted snow, no burning marks on the tent …). What I simply can’t imagine is that a lightning ball suddenly appears and “hunts” and kills all the hikers when never ever before or after this tragedy such a thing happened. It sounds too much “made-up” (hope this is the correct word).
Nigel Evans
20-08-2017 07:30 (GMT)
@Dyatlover-Man - Ok, not proven fact, but commonly assumed fact, fair point. Either they chose the cedar as a lookout or because it provided big dead branches that would burn well or both. Using it as a lookout works well in the BL theory...
Sorry thumbs down on the Mk3 version, Pink Floyd!? Not enough gravitas for this. The Mk2 version was the best. Still knocked out by the Celtic Spirit choice.
AFilmCritic.
Loose-Cannon
20-08-2017 00:51 (GMT)
Hey Nigel... I decided you were right in that the video shouldn't have the same music twice, so I remade it. I moved the first section to the rear and added piano. My kinda piano. Roflmao https://youtu.be/nFSQGM9KGKE .
Loose-Cannon
19-08-2017 23:51 (GMT)
"No one would bother to climb a cedar to monitor the tent area 1500m away for avalanche risk at night. The fact that they did so points to something being visible at the tent. Something illuminated perhaps."
Fact they did so... fact fact... fact! OR, they simply broke off limbs.... for a fire. There are no 'facts' here. lol
Nigel Evans
19-08-2017 23:27 (GMT)
@HK - hi there. Problems with your theory :-
They were quite close to the top of the mountain and there was very very little chance of an avalanche on that slope. So no one flees a tent in their socks because they've heard a rumble nearby, they would have as much chance in the tent as outside, in fact it would be more dangerous further down than at the top. Even if they did erroneously decide to leave they would have discussed it first and had time to collect footwear and outer clothing. No need to slit open the tent. No one would bother to climb a cedar to monitor the tent area 1500m away for avalanche risk at night. The fact that they did so points to something being visible at the tent. Something illuminated perhaps. You haven't explained the photos - http://dyatlovpass.com/controversy#zolotaryovcamera . The argument against water damage etc is that the Eagle photo exactly matches a seperate eye witness account and the three heads looks exactly what you would expect of a shot of an extremely bright object from inside the tent. That would be some coincidence for random damage. The returning three all expire within 330 m of each other. I would point at this and argue that this is too small a distance to be simply by chance there has to be a reason.
Loose-Cannon
19-08-2017 22:42 (GMT)
"just read the metaphysic.narod.ru link."
Sounds like you got further then I did. lol
H.K.
19-08-2017 21:59 (GMT)
Hi everybody.
Good page but almost always there is a simple natural explanation and I am sure this is also the case here. And nothing extraordinary like the Yeti or UFOs or lightning balls that follow and kill people or whatever. As long as there are no new facts, everything we can do is speculate and create theories. So I think the following happened:
It is evening and they are sleeping in the tent. Some are wearing more clothes than other because when you sleep with nine people in a tent there are warmer places in the middle and colder places at the sites. Then they hear a loud rumble and think an avalanche is coming and they are in great danger. Of course today we know no avalanche did hit the tent, because the tent was intact. So maybe they heard an avalanche somewhere next to them, or maybe it was a thunder or a small earthquake. Fact is they thought they were in a great danger. So they grabbed some clothes very fast and cut the tent to get out very quick. Outside they calm down a little bit but still think the avalanche is coming soon. And they act very logical and organized. They stay in a group, grab each other on the hands so that no one gets lost and leave the area almost in a row. In the distance they see the wood and the big cedar and they go there to search for shelter. At the cedar they act very logical again. They make a fire to warm up. What they did not know: In a night with temperatures around -30 grad Celsius a fire alone does not help so much. So they try everything to make the fire bigger but after some time they realize that this has no success and when they stay at the cedar they will die. At this some of the hikers are just undercooled, at least the one that wear only some few clothes. Then someone is climbing the cedar to look whether the avalanche (they were thinking of) hit the tent or not. And they see the tent is still intact or at least they think it could be. At this point the two Yuri’s are just dead or as good as. And again they act logical because the other hikers take some clothes from the Yuri’s to have better chances to survive. And then they split (maybe in agreement or in a conflict). Igor, Zinaida and Rustem decide to go back to the tent what makes sense. But all three of them are undercooled and exhausted and they don’t make it and die of hypothermia. The other four are wearing more clothes and they decide to create a den. And they find a good place. In a ravine below ice or maybe a small cave in a wall of the ravine. There they are protected by the cold wind. But as we know, the protection was not as good as expected. Some part of the wall of the ravince collapses and buries the hiker under some meters of slow. This again matches the situation earlier in the tent, that there was some rumble (maybe some smaller earthquakes). If some tons of snow are lying on you, this matches exactly the injuries the hikers had (pressed ribs without external injuries).
Also the other facts can be explained with this theory: Rustem’s outer injuries: Possible that they did fight about the clothes of the two Yuris’s and Rustem was hit on the head. Or he was the one climbing the cedar and was hit while climbing/falling down.
The radiation: First of all, in the original report no radiation was mentioned. But let’s assume there was radiation. Then it is quite probably that the radiation was on the clothes before the trip. They were engineers and it was a time where several people worked with radiation and it was a time were safety standards were low.
The missing tongue: It is the same as with the eyes. During decomposition the soft tissues are affected first. O they were eaten by scavengers. Maybe Lyudmila bit up a piece of her tongue during the snow collapsed and the rest was done by decomposition and/or scavengers. The original report simply says the tongue is missing, nothing more. …
So we know they were experienced and exactly so the reacted. Today we know there was no avalanche, but it the night they did not know this. And also experienced people can do wrong decisions as it happens each day. So the tragedy was caused by some bad decisions (starting with the position of the tent) and simple a little bit bad luck (that the wall of the ravine collapsed).
Would like to hear your opinions and if there is something that speaks clearly against this theory.
Greetings from Germany
Nigel Evans
19-08-2017 21:07 (GMT)
@Loose-Cannon - just read the metaphysic.narod.ru link.
Oh he was so close! But in his story the microwaves/UHF are from an alien craft which makes repeated assaults on the group, pity.
As said before the fire in a snow covered forest 1500m away rules out a sentient threat. Also he doesn't see that the returning three survive the ravine four and nurse them passing clothing from the dead to the living (LD -> SZ).
A good effort, close but no cigar
Nigel Evans
19-08-2017 18:13 (GMT)
Correction, meant " Placed by ZK as she pressed on?"
Nigel Evans
19-08-2017 18:12 (GMT)
Yes the software concatenates URLs with the next line. Add a space and full stop, like this :-
8:05 is YURI KRIVONISCHENKO....... mislabeled as RUSTEM SLOBODIN. Not even worth posting the site thats how bad it is. Hard one to find... better save it. http://i.imgur.com/h83v951.jpg
8:54.... RUSTEM SLOBODIN. No Idea, good luck finding again. Likely not on any page worth a squat. Better save it... http://image.ibb.co/gM5Gz5/712202.jpg
@Anna - @Loose-Cannon is correct (don't get to say that very often) there are many scenarios from golf ball sized objects that last for seconds to mile wide objects that move at thousands of mph and last for a long time.
@Loose-Cannon - all nice work, but i wouldn't reuse the celtic spirit track as good as it is (well done for seeing the connection, touch of genius). I'd go for more pathos maybe - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtLHiou7anE . Some of the morgue photos i haven't seen before, would appreciate if you could provide a link.
Loose-Cannon
19-08-2017 08:04 (GMT)
Laff... I'm just measin with ya Nigel.
I revamped the vid making it more... Flashy? Also added a whole new segment to the end. https://youtu.be/CE-4LdRfsQo
Loose-Cannon
19-08-2017 01:43 (GMT)
Nigel is about to tell you all about how fireballs can last hours (if not days) and purposely chase you down several times while zapping and exploding. Like a bear.... dont turn and run because it will chase you.
Anna Yordanova
18-08-2017 23:52 (GMT)
I just read a very interesting article about BL by John Lowke,who claims that the rough lifetime of a ball lightning is only 10 sec and can be explained as the time for the ions to be dispersed to the ground.As we all know the footprints disappear after 500 m and to me sounds absolutely impossible for the hikers to have run 500 m for 10 sec.
Nigel Evans
18-08-2017 22:14 (GMT)
@Anna - Best to check to opening times for the cafe.
Anna Yordanova
18-08-2017 21:31 (GMT)
I am only joking Nigel.I will do my best to visit the caffe you recommend.
Nigel Evans
18-08-2017 20:35 (GMT)
@Anna - thanks nice offer but i can't see my wife letting me go camping in Siberia with a girl i met on the internet...
None of the other theories will be supported with photographs....
Or we can set off to Kolat Syakhl to observe the ball lightnings in situ.
Anna Yordanova
18-08-2017 19:15 (GMT)
Thank you Nigel for the link.Next week I am going camping near Rendlesham forest,famous with the UFO incident in 1980.I hope I won`t have an encounter with one.Thank you for all the information you are sharing with us,but before something is proven 100%(not just hypothesis)I cannot conclude anything.I only express my opinion,but I am not a crime investigator digging into cold cases.No survivors from this incident so we don`t know who is wrong who is right.I respect your opinion.
@Sergei-Eisenstein - Didn't see a photo of the ball lightning, did i miss it?
@Anna - The theory, perhaps just my theory is that complex electric topologies in the atmosphere combined with wind create large regions of microwave energy which seem to include visible plasmoids possibly as solitons. Lightning can do something similar. One of the documented effects is a loud rattling as the microwaves stimulate the inner ear. Other effects include burns and charred extremities. Not documented but quite plausible is interference with the nervous system and possibly pain sensation. So that's perhaps why they fled the tent, but not because of the ball lightning but because of it's cause.
Anna Yordanova
18-08-2017 13:03 (GMT)
@John Wolfe.Thanks for the links.I have seen a ball lightning when I was a child.I don't deny the presence of BL in the area where the hikers were found dead,but I cannot accept that all of them died because of it.They have been experienced,well educated and very responsible hikers.They have been in quiet difficult terrains.I cannot imagine that they will run outside with no boots,leave all of their jackets inside and die from hypothermia just because they saw a fire ball in the sky They wouldn't build a den to hide from a fire ball and they wouldn't have the injuries they have.At least one or two of them would be alive.But no one is, unfortunately.And I don't believe that the BL killed them.
Loose-Cannon
18-08-2017 12:41 (GMT)
Hopefully you saw the whole thing because there is a pause.... Don't let it fool ya!!
Nigel Evans
18-08-2017 08:39 (GMT)
@Stanley-Kubrick - Cool. Liked the Celtic spirit medley, nice touch.
Ok guys/gals... The slide vid is more/less complete. I may go back and add a few subtitles.... perhaps a whole new section on the end to show more investigation, personal items etc. It is what it is. My main goal was to consolidate many of these pics in a somewhat entertaining somewhat timeline vid.
note to Anna Yordanova: while fireballs / ball-lightning are rare -- they tend to be seen in specific locations in repeated observances. There are many places you can google to see these places. The fireballs are seen numerous times in one year but are not predictable. Because of this (unpredictability) the balls are seen from only a distance and not close up. However, in various books on ball-lightning, there are descriptions of balls of fire which sound a lot like these glowing spheres seen around Dead Mountain on various occasions by people who were far enough away that it was only a visual phenomena and did not effect them directly. The books on ball-lightning often describe the destructive force which can be released when the ball explodes -- enough force to knock down a stone wall -- or when it comes in contact with a person -- often killing them.
Imma little bit anal when it comes to changing slides with the tempo of the music and how the transition happens. lol
Loose-Cannon
17-08-2017 17:41 (GMT)
4min into a 8min video, and it aint getting any easier.
Nigel Evans
17-08-2017 17:33 (GMT)
Ah the, "do not like to affirm any one scenario is correct given the severe lack of information on the subject" excuse....
Looking forward to the vid.
Loose-Cannon
17-08-2017 17:21 (GMT)
Laff.... No, I told you. I have plenty of ideas, but do not like to affirm any one scenario is correct given the severe lack of information on the subject. Could have been anything... including but not limited to BL.
Hey... you may like this video. A one stop shop for like a hundred related pics.
Nigel Evans
17-08-2017 17:01 (GMT)
Ah the "Im busy working on a youtube video slide show" excuse...
Loose-Cannon
17-08-2017 16:50 (GMT)
Hey... c'mon man, Im busy working on a video slide show of incident pictures to upload to youtube. lol
Nigel Evans
17-08-2017 16:32 (GMT)
@ROFLMAO - well lets hear them then, i might be able to offer some constructive criticism, maybe even some destructive....
Loose-Cannon
17-08-2017 16:17 (GMT)
Oh I have plenty of theories. ROFLMFAO
Nigel Evans
17-08-2017 15:08 (GMT)
Any theory requires conjecture, your theory would if you had one...
Loose-Cannon
17-08-2017 15:00 (GMT)
Not hardly... Your reaching far and wide with conjecture to explain... more conjecture. :/
Your getting into bigfoot and alien territory with unsubstantiated claims.
Nigel Evans
17-08-2017 14:54 (GMT)
@Cool - you're missing possible air pockets, the injury profile suggests a narrow (100x30cm?) but heavy (1 tonne?) piece of the roof to fall on two chests with one head in between. So that allows for side spaces.
Just too easy, like taking candy from a baby...
Loose-Cannon
17-08-2017 14:47 (GMT)
Cool.
But I must have missed the evidence that they were dug out of the den, ROFL
In addition, this isnt your dainty light and fluffy snow, this your heavy packed snow "if" of course its going to crush skulls and chests..... which is your entire case. The contradictions are thick with with one.
Nigel Evans
17-08-2017 14:30 (GMT)
@ROFL - oh i do like fencing with you, it's so easy...
"Not if the returning 3 were nursing the den4 after digging them out of the snow."
Yeah... they dug them out of PACKED snow AGAIN by hand in record time before the die of suffocation (what like 4min), nurse them, then ultimately leave them face down hunched over a boulder.
Remember when I said your crapping in your own kiddy pool? ROFL
Nigel Evans
17-08-2017 13:12 (GMT)
@Loose-Cannon - "THE 2YURIS CLOTHING ARTICLES WERE SALVAGED BY THE DEN4 AFTER THEIR DEATHS." Not if the returning 3 were nursing the den4 after digging them out of the snow.... It would help if you read my posts... But i'd agree that the timeline for the deaths of the 2yuris vs the den4 deaths is too tight, so maybe they just had an accident and fell out of the tree earlier. Frostbite makes you clumsy?
Loose-Cannon
17-08-2017 13:11 (GMT)
What hut?
Emma
17-08-2017 13:08 (GMT)
Is there any record of who was living in the hut, at that time?
Loose-Cannon
17-08-2017 12:57 (GMT)
One of the facts we actually know......
THE 2YURIS CLOTHING ARTICLES WERE SALVAGED BY THE DEN4 AFTER THEIR DEATHS.
If your lightning ball collapsed a den (no evidence for) AND killed the 2Yuris (knocked out of tree... whatever you like).... Then you would have to have TWO FIREBALLS happening god only knows how far apart because digging a den by hand in packed snow like that will NOT take 15 min.
Unfortunately a TWO fireball theory takes in from a 'possible' to over the moon fantastical.
Loose-Cannon
17-08-2017 12:46 (GMT)
"Note it doesn't have to be a huge explosion, just enough to trigger a collapse in the den and cause the 2yuris to fall."
Killin me man.... killin me!
How can a single explosion bury the den4 and 'cause the 2yuris to fall'.... WHEN THE DEN4 HAS ON THE 2YURIS CLOTHES??
Think about what your saying......
Anna Yordanova
17-08-2017 09:14 (GMT)
@Nigel I don't think that they will cooperate.
Nigel Evans
17-08-2017 08:58 (GMT)
@Anna - presumably someone would have to ask the Russian government and they might not be very helpful
Anna Yordanova
17-08-2017 08:45 (GMT)
@Nigel Sorry Nigel I am unable to confirm the construction date. You may ask Valentin Degtyarev, the one who found it.
Nigel Evans
17-08-2017 08:20 (GMT)
@Loose-Cannon - no 2 isn't so bad, making progress.
@KMM - there were burnt tree tops and an unusual number of dead birds (white grouse) found in the forest. Note it doesn't have to be a huge explosion, just enough to trigger a collapse in the den and cause the 2yuris to fall.
@Anna - i think you'd need to confirm the construction date to have a decent theory...
Loose-Cannon
17-08-2017 04:26 (GMT)
Nigel is the BL expert... he says there are reports of dead birds, burned tree tops, round burn marks in tree trunks, and melted snow areas that refroze? Im guessing it would be more of a zapping episode. My main issue with the theory is the injuries.
KMM
17-08-2017 03:35 (GMT)
Would not such an explosion have left a blast pattern in the trees, branches, snow that would still show in a month ?
Loose-Cannon
16-08-2017 22:55 (GMT)
Nigel... here is your fireball solution for having articles of clothing from cedar2 found on rev4. Enjoy
Fire ball explodes/zaps/burns at the treeline with ALL 9 hikers present. The injured were cared for 'in part' by starting a fire. Decent size lower limbs on cedar trees commonly die prematurely (reason why they could even be snapped off in the first place) which was used for said fire because the wood is dry... all other dead wood is buried under snow. Conditions at the tent are even worse, and now having a destroyed tent... returning to it 'for shelter' is futile.... your not taking badly injured and dying people a mile up hill in horrific temps and weather/wind anyhow.
It would not have taken long to figure out a small fire at the treeline exposed to the wind/weather will not work for long as injured Yuri and Yuri have just died from exposure. At this time IGOR DYATLOV, ZINAIDA KOLMOGOROVA, RUSTEM SLOBODIN, and ALEXANDER KOLEVATOV are the least injured and rectify the exposed situation by going 75m into the woods and into a ravine where they made an improvised shelter or 'den', AND relocated the remaining injured which are LYUDMILA DUBININA, SEMYON ZOLOTARYOV, and NIKOLAI THIBEAUX-BRIGNOLLE. Unknown who was incapacitated and had to be dragged/carried, and who could move their legs and walk with assistance.
With the den secured, IGOR DYATLOV, ZINAIDA KOLMOGOROVA, and RUSTEM SLOBODIN make an attempt to retrieve vital gear and clothing from the tent leaving ALEXANDER KOLEVATOV to care for the dying in the den. Unknown if all three went together or if separately after the prior not returning.... I would think this to be a group effort given the amount of goods needed from the tent. Ultimately ALL three die of hypothermia in the process.
Back at the den without the tent3 to return, the injured die and ALEXANDER KOLEVATOV eventually gives in to hypothermia himself being the last alive.
LYUDMILA DUBININA, SEMYON ZOLOTARYOV, and NIKOLAI THIBEAUX-BRIGNOLLE had massive injuries while ALEXANDER KOLEVATOV was in the best condition of all 9. His 'deformed neck' was a post mortem.
DIDCLAIMER.... This is about the only base BL 'fireball' scenario with slight variations possible, and I do not necessarily subscribe to this theory. it may be a #2 on my list.
Anna Yordanova
16-08-2017 20:24 (GMT)
@Loose Cannon I came across the article yesterday.I will search the internet if I can find any ground level photos in the Russian sites.I agree that this are blurry.If this bunker exist,then it is a big deal.
Loose-Cannon
16-08-2017 19:53 (GMT)
This 'bunker'...
Is there any any actual ground level pictures? Or is this super blurry google earth image all there is? Thousands of people have been going to this area in recent years... You would think it be a big deal.
Nigel Evans
16-08-2017 19:49 (GMT)
@Anna - the existence of the fire rules out a lot of scenarios.
Anna Yordanova
16-08-2017 19:37 (GMT)
I said what I think.They were killed -not by Yeti,but another humans(if we can call them like that).I respect everyone else`s opinion,but we may never find the truth.It is sad that this people died in such a terrible way.
Anna Yordanova
16-08-2017 19:21 (GMT)
@Nigel.OK ,lets blame the BL for every single death in the region. @Loose Cannon.The bunker is 30 m long and 10m wide as far as I remember.Unfortunately I can`t check personally.
Loose-Cannon
16-08-2017 19:10 (GMT)
Wow.. look at the top of this image and go do some googlefoo. I'm sure you will find it was.... A fireball
Really? You haven't heard of the other people found dead in the area?
Nigel Evans
16-08-2017 18:37 (GMT)
@Anna - the BL killed 9 mansi?
Nigel Evans
16-08-2017 18:32 (GMT)
@Dena - hi, So you're into the Yeti theory or something similar As said before the idea that they fled a sentient threat and then lit a fire at the cedar 1500 m away in a snow covered forest is complete nonsense.
Loose-Cannon
16-08-2017 18:25 (GMT)
Experienced rarely means computant.... Especially when you botched the investigation which creates the conundrum in the first place, then run out of ideas so decide to pick a narrative appease the masses without any 'experience' as a ball lightning scientist. Why put so much faith in a revised opinion given by a person that was part of the problem from the beginning?
The bunker (if its even a bunker) must be where the fireball stalker lives!
BL... Its like the more eyewitness accounts of BL happening, the more you think its 'fact' of what happened. Lightening likely struck my state 5,000,000,000 times last year, does that mean it was the cause for my neighbors house burning down?.... Nope.
The mansi.... Great, lets rely on what one of the suspects say. (eyes roll).
All of this is conjecture... Not evidence.
Anna Yordanova
16-08-2017 17:16 (GMT)
I agree with Dena that the hikers have been attacked.Very interesting fact in my opinion is that the bunker found in Ural mountain is only 10 km South from the tent,exactly where the entrance was.That`s why they didn`t run towards the storage house,because the attackers were coming from this direction.If a BL killed 9 people why all of the others who have reported seeing this spheres were not killed?Why the ball lightning decided to kill Dyatlov and company?
Dena
16-08-2017 17:01 (GMT)
I used a nursing method – follow the symptoms, complaints, all evidence in an effort to determine what happened to these skiers. I believe these hikers were being stalked and they were aware of that. They pitched tent on the open snow to observe the forest through slits in the tent. They did not want to give up their excursion and return. They reckoned this was their last night in the area and they would lose the stalker on Mt. Otorten. Sheer terror caused these people to leap through their tent in sub-zero weather. A sudden attack caused them to run for their lives. Aware that their combined muscle and body weight could not overcome this attacker, they fled the tent without skis or clothing. The Mansi people told of a large confrontational animal species indigenous to that area of the Urals that they feared. We do not know all species of life on earth or in the sea. We share the earth with many species – confrontational and non-confrontational. Toxic waste in waterways could source mutation. The hikers suffered brutal, life-threatening injuries at the hands of the attacker, but succumbed to hypothermia before dying of those injuries. Hypothermia preceded death by injury due to the freezing temps. Possibly a female hiker screamed and her tongue was torn out by the attacker. Her mouth is frozen in a silent scream. An autopsy report stated the tongue was ripped from the roots. The men's hands are extended to fight off the attacker. Terror is frozen on their faces. Many people look peaceful in death. This group looks terror-stricken and were obviously fending an attack. They climbed a tree to view the attacker. Their arms were braced against blows - not from infrasound, an avalanche or lights, but from an attacker - an attacker that could tolerate being in freezing temps all night to attack in stages - an attacker with the tracking ability to find them, even buried under deep snow. In order to grasp what happened to these people, we must realize what an unusual, life-threatening event these skiers suddenly faced. Isolated at night - freezing - facing a formidable attacker. I am so sorry for what these hikers endured and for the lives lost that night in 1959.
Nigel Evans
16-08-2017 13:56 (GMT)
Further witness reports :- As the search for the remaining members of the group dragged on, some members of the rescue team began to witness strange phenomena. Valentin Yakimenko’s diary from March 31: Today, early in the morning, Victor Mesheryakov, who was on watch duty, left the tent and saw a light in the sky, like a round sphere. He woke us all. Partly dressed, we left the tent and, for about 20 minutes, we watched the movement of a sphere or round disk until it disappeared behind Mountain 880. We saw it to the southeast of our tent and it was moving in a northerly direction. Before it disappeared, in the very centre of this round sphere, we saw a kind of star, which gradually grew and then started to descend, having detached from the sphere. This occurrence made us really excited and we felt confident it was somehow related to the deaths of the Dyatlov group. It must be mentioned that on February 17, during the expedition of another group of climbers, something similar was seen. At around 7:30 AM one member of the party on cooking duty called out: ‘Come and look, something weird!’ Vladislav Karelin, who joined the rescue team later, subsequently recalled: I got out of my sleeping bag without my boots, but in my socks, standing only on branches. I saw a big bright spot. It was growing, and in its centre there was a little star, which also began to grow. This whole spot was moving from the northeast to the southwest and was in the process of falling to the Earth. It left a white tracer tail in the sky. This thing left different impressions on us. Atmanaki said he thought the earth would explode when the object struck, he felt as if it was another planet. As for me, I wasn’t really impressed; it was just a falling meteorite. The whole thing took just over a minute.
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (pp. 66-67). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
It was after this report that Ivanov started considering the ‘overwhelming force’, and in his opinion, it came from above. Some parts of the criminal case files are devoted to a phenomenon dubbed the ‘fireballs in the sky’. For some reason, Lev Ivanov included this data, and later it becomes more obvious why he was interested in these testimonies. The meteorologist, Tokareva, gives the most detailed description of the fireball: To the Director of the Ivdel Police Department 15.03.59: At 6:50 local time a comet was seen in the sky. The tail was similar to that of dense cirrus clouds. Then the star became free from the tail, became brighter, and flew away. It began gradually to swell and became a large ball surrounded in mist. Inside this ball a star began to burn, from which, first, a crescent was formed, and then an entire ball, but not as bright. The large ball began to fade and became like a blur. It disappeared at 7:05. The star moved from the south to the northeast. Atmanaki: On the 7th of February, Vladimir Shevkunov and I got up at 6 AM to cook breakfast for the rest of the rescue group. It was grey and I saw a kind of milk white spot, approximately five or six times the diameter of the moon, consisting of five or six concentric circles. It reminded me of a kind of lunar halo. I told my colleague that the moon looked weird, and he replied: ‘That’s not the moon,’ and ‘It’s supposed to be in a different part of the sky.’ At that moment, in the very centre of the white spot, a star sparkled, and then the star began to grow and move fast in a westerly direction. In several seconds, it grew to the size of the moon and then it broke out of the cloud and appeared as a huge fiery white disk about the size of two moons. And it was still surrounded by the pale white rings. Staying the same size, the sphere began to fade until it became the same as the whole aureola, and then the whole thing just dissolved in the sky. The whole thing took no more than about one-and-a-half minutes and was really strange. I got the impression it was some kind of cosmic body falling down, but then when it was growing the thought came to my mind that our earth was about to collide with another planet and maybe be destroyed. During all this time we were standing as if we were hypnotised watching all this. I spoke to many people about it, those who had also seen it, and people who were in their houses say the light was so bright that it woke them. The file contains an excerpt from the local newspaper with a story, which was indeed strange, as in the Soviet era everything was strictly secular and could be explained by science. On February 7, 1959 the Tagil Worker reported: Yesterday at 6:55 AM local time, to the south-east, at an angle of twenty degrees above the horizon, a bright globe appeared, about moon sized. Around 7 AM, inside of this globe, there was some sort of explosion and a very bright core of this globe became visible, which started to glow more intensely, and around it appeared a cloud. Then the cloud dissolved in the whole eastern part of the sky. Soon after this a second explosion took place, and it resembled the crescent of the moon, gradually the cloud was glowing and in the centre of it remained the bright spot. – A. Kissel, Deputy Head of Vysokogorny Colliery. A radio message was sent by the search team from the rescue group on March 31, 4:00 AM: In the southeast direction the soldier on duty, Misherakov, noticed a large fiery ring, which was moving away from us for about 20 minutes, and then it disappeared behind Mount 880. Before it vanished below the horizon, from the centre of the ring a star appeared, and this star grew to about the size of the moon and then detached from the ring and began to fall. All personnel that were awake observed this strange phenomenon. Please, we ask you to explain this to us, and how safe should we feel, because it made a pretty alarming impression. – Avenbourg, Sogrin and Potapov
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (pp. 100-103). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
Nigel Evans
16-08-2017 09:48 (GMT)
@Anna - forgot to mention - SZ's photos (if genuine) make it 5 events...
Nigel Evans
16-08-2017 07:51 (GMT)
@Anna - it's plausible it was left in previous military excursions or by hunters or as Loose-Cannon said. It's interesting how people hang onto a theory no matter how little evidence. For the BL theory there are three official sightings in that region in the spring of 1959 plus an unofficial claim of rollers passing the investigators tent. So lets say four and this is in a sparsely inhabited region. One of the reports talks of explosions. Plus we have the mansi's experience longer term that includes fatalities. So we have eye witness accounts of all of the required behaviour for the DPI BL theory both at that time and in the past. But no a scrap of clothing was found that YY didn't recognise, like he didn't recognise SZ's camera and this is pounced on as the basis for a murder theory.
Ivanov was an experienced police investigator and his finding is on record....
KMM
16-08-2017 01:24 (GMT)
does anyone know if the deer hunter they crossed paths with ever identified and questioned ?
Anna Yordanova
15-08-2017 23:31 (GMT)
@Loose Cannon.I am also surprised that he was able to remember what they`ve been wearing and to identify their belongings,but we never know.I am only saying what I have read and even Yuri was convinced that the military has something to do with this tragedy.
Anna Yordanova
15-08-2017 22:23 (GMT)
The bunker was found only 10 km away from the place where the bodies were found.That means that this might have been a military testing area after all.
Anna Yordanova
15-08-2017 22:19 (GMT)
I just found this Таинственное сооружение, связанное с гибелью туристов, найдено на перевале Дятлова 6:41 14 Августа 2017 30259 4333 В Избранное https://riafan.ru/915451-tainstvennoe-sooruzhenie-svyazannoe-s-gibelyu-turistov-naideno-na-perevale-dyatlova Скопировать Таинственное сооружение, связанное с гибелью туристов, найдено на перевале Дятлова .
Loose-Cannon
15-08-2017 21:59 (GMT)
Are you really surprised Yuri couldn't identify ONE article of clothing? These NINE people were wearing 4 to 6 layers each not including whatever else they had in their packs. I didn't know Yuri was the designated clothing hall monitor tasked with overseeing who wears what.
This wasn't a military testing area... The closest was a rocket site roughly 100 kilometers away and they were launched down a known range headed in the opposite direction.
Anna Yordanova
15-08-2017 21:47 (GMT)
@Nigel.You are right that lots of people have been messing around,but Yudin was called to recognize the belongings shortly after the tent was discovered and recalls that the piece of clothing was a military one.I read this in a Russian site.
Nigel Evans
15-08-2017 21:35 (GMT)
@Anna - Svetlana Oss has handled the report and notes that it's been restitched, but then Ivanov has told us that material was removed that supported the fireball theory.
Ball lightning might not that rare at the DP... A recent expedition noted a light that lasted 4.5 hours.
There was a rescue team, a police team and a KGB team there for several months who knows what got left behind or lost.
Anna Yordanova
15-08-2017 20:56 (GMT)
Nigel ,from what i have read I know that the case was closed due to evidence and reopened in the 90s(don`t know the exact year),but lots of the information in the file was missing.And also the military and another group of hikers have reported that they have seen strange orange globes in the area where Dyatlov and the rest died.Considering the fact that the ball lightning is such a rare phenomenon no one can convince me that these orange spheres seen in the sky at that time are exactly ball lightnings.I think that they were killed and this is my opinion.What if the military reached the tent before the rescuers?The search started at February 20 which means the search started about a week after Dyatlov failed to call in Sverdlovsk.For that time the military or whoever were the killers had plenty of time to go to the crime scene.Whose are the piece of clothing and he pair of glasses that were found in the tent?Yuri Yudin did say that they did not belong to any of the nine hikers.
Nigel Evans
15-08-2017 20:01 (GMT)
@Anna who says it was a secret? There was an investigation with a published report....
Anna Yordanova
15-08-2017 19:43 (GMT)
We all have our own ideas what exactly happened,but the fact that very experienced and well educated people died and there are no survivors means only one thing to me-someone wanted these poor young people dead and this wasn`t the ball lightning.Yuri Yudin in an interview shortly before his dead recalls how the authorities were more concerned why the hikers were in the area,not how they died.If the death of these students was because of a natural event (like a ball lightning)why the case was a secret for so many years?
Nigel Evans
15-08-2017 19:43 (GMT)
Dude why is that?
Loose-Cannon
15-08-2017 19:01 (GMT)
Welp... I was going to help you strengthen your fireball theory, but your crapping in your own kiddy pool. :/
Nigel Evans
15-08-2017 18:41 (GMT)
Dude... You cannot have it both ways bro. Your going to have to pick one. You claim ball lightning threw people from trees and HAD to have caused the burned leg because (how you read it) was SUCH a nasty deep 'charred' wound... Talked about electrocution burn etc..... Yep
THEN... You also claimed the very SAME 'single' explosion collapsed the den killing 4 after having dug the darn thing for how many hours? Yep
The salvaged clothing PROVES (in your theory) that the two parties dies at separate times... Likely hours apart judging by how long it would take to dig a den by hand. Yep but could just be 15 minutes apart.
Then... You so claimed the other hiker party said TWO explosions. Not necessarily the same evening. Maybe in the same week. The point being that these lights are observed to explode by eye witnesses in the same region in the same week.
So which is it.... Way I see it your theory can only be one of the following.
1. One explosion at treeline and the den wasn't even dug yet.... 2. One explosion over the den causing the collapse and the cedar2 died earlier from non fire-ball reasons. 3. TWO DIFFERENT fireballs hit the the group HOURS apart from one another in two different locations Possible. 4. THE SAME fireball attacked the group once, went away, then came back to attack them again the second time collapsing the den. Possible. 5. One explosion with the cedar2 dying before the ravine 4?
This isn't rocket science and you can't claim the fireball slammed two at treeline, others salvage clothing, then went back in freaking time to be in the den when the fireball happened. As science doesn't undestand ball lightning it is fair to say it is rocket science....
Loose-Cannon
15-08-2017 16:42 (GMT)
Dude... You cannot have it both ways bro. Your going to have to pick one. You claim ball lightning threw people from trees and HAD to have caused the burned leg because (how you read it) was SUCH a nasty deep 'charred' wound... Talked about electrocution burn etc.....
THEN... You also claimed the very SAME 'single' explosion collapsed the den killing 4 after having dug the darn thing for how many hours?
The salvaged clothing PROVES (in your theory) that the two parties dies at separate times... Likely hours apart judging by how long it would take to dig a den by hand.
Then... You so claimed the other hiker party said TWO explosions.
So which is it.... Way I see it your theory can only be one of the following.
1. One explosion at treeline and the den wasn't even dug yet.... 2. One explosion over the den causing the collapse and the cedar2 died earlier from non fire-ball reasons. 3. TWO DIFFERENT fireballs hit the the group HOURS apart from one another in two different locations 4. THE SAME fireball attacked the group once, went away, then came back to attack them again the second time collapsing the den.
This isn't rocket science and you can't claim the fireball slammed two at treeline, others salvage clothing, then went back in freaking time to be in the den when the fireball happened.
Anna Yordanova
15-08-2017 16:10 (GMT)
I found this article and seems quiet interesting.There is the link: The 72-year-old hunter told me who and for what killed 57 years ago the Dyatlov group
Easy the cedar two died quickly and the ravine four rescuers took some clothing.
Loose-Cannon
15-08-2017 15:21 (GMT)
Your forgetting one hard fact piece of evidence..... Articles of clothing from the cedar2 were salvaged by the den4. Its impossible for the ball to doomed both parties in separate locations at the same time given this fact....
I have your solution if you wanna hear it.
Nigel Evans
15-08-2017 14:34 (GMT)
Great.. dug in from the side. I can buy that, but how much snow would it take to crush rib cages, and bash in a skull? A couple of cubic meters of compact snow would be say 1.5 tonnes.... The theory is that a rectangular piece of the roof fell across two chest and one head lying in between.
Wouldn't blonde chicky have been frozen solid where she died? Look at how her body is slumped over that rock with arms UP over the rock...... It was the spring thaw? Look at the force of the water in the photo of her http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Lyudmila-Dubinina-post-mortem-1.jpg .
Again.... Pleasease explain how the ball traveled to the group only once and killed the cadar2 and rav4. Because it exploded overhead with enough force to destabilise the den. YD and YK weren't killed by it but they fell out of the cedar onto the fire. YK subsequently bit the skin off the back of his hand dealing with the pain. So he couldn't have died immediately. Shock from the burn could have done it. The explosion killed the nearby birds. Might have burnt the treetops as well. There's an outside chance that YD/YK suffered from electrocution instead of falling into the fire.
Loose-Cannon
15-08-2017 14:09 (GMT)
Great.. dug in from the side. I can buy that, but how much snow would it take to crush rib cages, and bash in a skull? Wouldn't blonde chicky have been frozen solid where she died? Look at how her body is slumped over that rock with arms UP over the rock......
Again.... Pleasease explain how the ball traveled to the group only once and killed the cadar2 and rav4.
Please explain how the ball moved towards them only once and did this...
So... A report from hundreds of years earlier is PROOF ball lightning explodes. Interesting.
The rav4 being found just outside?of the den suggests it was a shelf configuration and not very deep. They could walk right out the front. Its simply deep enough to block the wind. A collapse of several meters deep hole does not explain the movement of the bodies from the den, nor the blonde chick being hunched of a boulder on her knees. You say it collapsed and then they were moved after..... Who dug this second massively deep hole with their bare hands to get the out??
Nigel Evans
15-08-2017 13:05 (GMT)
Don't forget that the rav4 had to dig out the den anyway so a good assumption imo is that the same kind of labour could rescue them.
Nigel Evans
15-08-2017 13:00 (GMT)
@Loose-Cannon - Im not talking about the search crew, Im talking about the night this happened. We have no clue how deep the snow was when the den was ORIGINALLY dug, how it was dug, who dug it, and how long it took then to do so. Correct, but applies to any theory . The bodies were not found in the den but 5-10 meters away. So it follows (in my theory) that they were moved from the den debris to a nearby spot to be attended to which includes redistributing clothing.
Even "if" thats ball lightning in those frames from the camera.... How do you know it actually caused the physical injuries? I noticed you don't have a solution for why the ball lightning chased them down to kill them ..... Twice. Not twice, only needs to happen once. I don't KNOW it caused these injuries, that's why it's called a theory...... The ski party reported hearing two explosions 50km away after a light had descended below the hills. So you have a reliable eye witness account that these things can explode...
I've posted this before but just for you as you don't like reading the thread - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_lightning#The_Montague This one travels 3 miles over open water to explode by the ship, that main top-mast would probably be in excess of 20 inches in diameter. Quite an explosion.
Im not talking about the search crew, Im talking about the night this happened. We have no clue how deep the snow was when the den was ORIGINALLY dug, how it was dug, who dug it, and how long it took then to do so.
Even "if" thats ball lightning in those frames from the camera.... How do you know it actually caused the physical injuries? I noticed you don't have a solution for why the ball lightning chased them down to kill them ..... Twice.
Nigel Evans
15-08-2017 10:23 (GMT)
@John Wolfe - the map seems to show that they left the flashlight on the brow of the hill, exactly were it would assist a return from up to 1km away.
@Loose-Cannon :- How do you know the film is in fact.... Intact and not fubared via rotting corps, frozen, and water logged in a creek for months? I don't but that two frames look exactly like BL is a bit of a coincidence if it's random damage....?
Speaking of the leg burn... I dunno what your reading - This is from the official pathologist report, "There is a burn across the entire surface of the left anticnemion with a size of 31 x 10 cm with parchment density. In the lower third of the left ??? of brown-black colour with charred tissue and the blow out of the cutaneous covering ???? Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (p. 215). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition. " That's all sounding medium rare and crispy crackling to me.
Yes your list is interesting, for the fight theory, it would have to be that ID, RS and ZK did all the punching and YD and YK took all the punches. It's possible of course, but it's also possible that YD/YK fell out of the cedar breaking branches on their way down. It's possible that the bleeding orifices are from radiation. It's possible that nerve damage made them extremely clumsy. The key point for me is that the injuries are inconclusive. In my theory the returning 3 dug the ravine 4 out of the collapsed den which would have resulted in superficial scratches to the hands and arms. Note :- ID - "many small scratches of dark red color on the lower third of the right forearm and palm surface" ZK - "brown-red abrasion on the back of both hands in the area of metacarpal phalangeal and inter-phalangeal joints", N.B. the "inter-phalangeal joints" are the finger joints, so the report is saying that she had ABRASIONS NOT BRUISES between her knuckles and finger tips on both hands. These aren't combat wounds but are consistent with digging through snow/ice using their bare hands as shovels.
Loose-Cannon
15-08-2017 05:59 (GMT)
Note... Igor and Rustem have hand injuries stating 'metacarpal phalangeal' as "This is common injury in hand to hand fights. To get a better idea of the injuries just make a fist. This is the part of the hand which you use to hit someone."
Zina has the EXACT SAME injuries.... The explanation of what causes it however is not listed. ALL three.... Hand/hand combat wounds to the hands.
Loose-Cannon
15-08-2017 05:31 (GMT)
Ok ... Lets take a look at these injuries and I dare ya to say it cannot indicate fighting.
YURI DOROSHENKO
2. ear, nose and lips are covered with blood 3. swollen upper lip with dark red hemorrhage 4. right cheek soft tissue covered with gray foam; gray liquid coming form his open mouth. Most apparent cause is pulmonary edema. (Pulmonary Edema.... Fluid in lungs... Common when starved of oxygen) 7. right armpit has a bruise 2x1.5 cm 8. brown-red bruises with size 4x1 cm, 2.5x1.5 cm, 5x5 cm in the upper third of right forearm 9. swelling and small abrasions in the rear of the right hand soft tissue 10. bruise with bleeding into the underlying soft tissue on the back of the right hand corresponding to the second metacarpal bone 14. on the inner surface of the left forearm there is a surface skin wound covered with dried blood 15. similar bruises in pale red color on the shins of both legs
YURI KRIVONISCHENKO
1. bruises on the forehead 0.3x1.8 cm 2. diffuse bleeding in the right temporal and occipital region due to damage to temporalis muscle 3. bruise around left temporal bone 7. back of the right hand is swollen, fingers are brownish-purple 14. dark red abrasions on left wrist, back of the left hand is swollen 16.three linear skin lesions with straight edges, sharp corners and depth up to 0.3 cm on the inner side of the upper third of the left thigh 17. three cutaneous wounds with sharp corners on the inner side of the upper third of the left hip 18. dark brown abrasion on the front of the right femur and tibia 19. dark brown-red abrasions on the front-inner left thigh
IGOR DYATLOV
1. minor abrasions on the forehead 2. minor abrasions on the upper eyelids 3. brown-red abrasions above the left eyebrow 4. minor abrasions on the left cheek 5. brown-red abrasions on both cheeks 6. dried blood on lips 8. bruised knees without bleeding into the underlying tissues 9. both ankles had brownish red abrasions, size 1x0.5 cm and 3x2.5 cm with hemorrhage into the 10. underlying tissue 10. single incision 4x2 cm in the lower third of the right tibia 11. many small scratches of dark red color on the lower third of the right forearm and palm surface 13. metacarpophalangeal joints on the right hand had brown red bruises. This is common injury in hand to hand fights. To get a better idea of the injuries just make a fist. This is the part of the hand which you use to hit someone. 14. left hand is brown-purple color with brownish-red bruises 15. superficial wounds on the 2nd and 5th finger on the left hand 16. skin wound in the palmar surface of the 2nd 5th finger of left hand
ZINAIDA KOLMOGOROVA
1. dark red abrasion on the right frontal eminence 2. pale gray area 3x2 cm above the right eyebrow 3. dark red abrasion on the upper eyelids 4. brown red graze on the bridge and tip of the nose 5. numerous abrasions on the left cheekbone 6. bruised skin on the right side of the face 7. brown-red abrasion on the back of both hands in the area of metacarpal phalangeal and inter-phalangeal joints 8. wound with jagged edges and missing skin on the back of the right hand at the base of the third finger 10. a long bright red bruise 29x6 cm in the lumbar region on the right side of the torso. The bruise looks like left from a baton
RUSTEM SLOBODIN
1. hemorrhages in the temporalis muscles 2. minor brownish red abrasions on the forehead 3. two scratches are 1.5 cm long at the distance of 0.3 cm between them 4. brownish red bruise on the upper eyelid of the right eye with hemorrhage into the underlying tissues 5. traces of blood discharge from the nose 6. swelling and a lot of small abrasions on both sides of the face 7. bruises in the metacarpophalangeal joints on both hands. Similar bruises are common in hand to hand combat 8. brown cherry bruises on the medial aspect of the left arm and left palm 9. swollen lips 10. bruises on the left tibia in dimensions at 2.5x1.5 cm (not shown on diagram) 11. epidermis is torn from the right forearm (not shown on diagram) 12. fracture of the frontal bone 6x0.1 cm located 1.5 cm from the sagittal suture (showing on separate skull trauma diagram without numbers)
Loose-Cannon
15-08-2017 04:58 (GMT)
Speaking of the leg burn... I dunno what your reading, but this is what this site states.
"20. edema on the left leg and foot, burn in the area the size of 31x10 cm on the entire outer surface of the leg"
Thats 12 by 4 inches.... And nothing is said about the level of severity. Not to mention he was found next to...... a fire!
Loose-Cannon
15-08-2017 04:49 (GMT)
I know the ball didn't come down the mountain just once.... If Yuri and Yuri died, then clothing removed (fact), and the one yuri had this severe burn caused by the ball... Then the den 4 were NOT killed at the same time.... Not even close because the 'den' was hand dug through meters of snow prior to the balls return. Two times said ball would have had to chase them down.
Loose-Cannon
15-08-2017 04:41 (GMT)
If the ball chased after them down the hill and killed a few.... It must have left the treeline at some point in order for the yuri/yuri group to have their clothing salvaged. Where did it go? Must have went BACK to the tent because if it didn't.... Why didn't the remaining victims go to the tent where their gear/clothing was located?. So the ball goes down the hill and kills, goes BACK up the mountain to tent, the comes BACK down the mountain HOURS later to where the the den group had just HAND DUG a den through several meters of snow?
Loose-Cannon
15-08-2017 04:34 (GMT)
How do you know the film is in fact.... Intact and not fubared via rotting corps, frozen, and water logged in a creek for months?
How do you know the depth of the snow when/where the den was dug.... What did they dig through several of meters of snow with?
John Wolfe
14-08-2017 23:03 (GMT)
Nigel, yes the tent had everything -- including the ball lightning -- which is why they left. The idea of the flashlight as a beacon sounds likely but only if they expected to go only a short distance and would not have been visible over a km away - over the curvature of the hill. Also the tent had something which had attracted the ball lightning in the first place. (metal stove?)
John Wolfe
14-08-2017 22:54 (GMT)
see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MZiZrzTYIo for the area in the daytime on a nice day -- still lots of wind -- see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOVmADGlX2Y&t=552s for (part one of 5) to see that there would lots of exposed/jagged rocks to trip over and fall against and etc. -- the series is a good view of the area and is marked with a tent and flags showing where bodies were and evidence was. see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFgB2MMEO0s to view the ravine area in the spring, with no snow you can see that the ravine is not a deep ravine -- just a small stream. ALSO NOTE: in the winter videos there are many small animal tracks - animals that would be glad to eat the easier bits of hand or face.
Nigel Evans
14-08-2017 22:44 (GMT)
"When the group was chased out of their tent they went down the slope to forest, not to the storage site where they had left provisions before climbing Kholat Syakhl. 19 items (total weight of 55 kg) among them cereals, sugar, wood, Krivonischenko's mandolin, pair of skis used to mark the location, 2 pair of shoes (ski and warm), an ice pick, a cap, mask and a shirt. The shed seemed undisturbed."
versus
"On the bottom of the tent 9 backpacks were discovered with various personal items, jackets, rain coats, 9 pairs of shoes. There were also found men's pants, and three pairs of boots, warm fur coats, socks, hat, ski caps, utensils, buckets, stove, ax, saw, blankets, food: biscuits in two bags, condensed milk, sugar, concentrates, notebooks, itinerary and many other small items and documents, camera and accessories to a camera."
Nigel Evans
14-08-2017 22:41 (GMT)
@John Wolfe - from memory the labaz only had one spare pair of boots. There was nothing there for six of the group. They had to get back to the tent and get into the clothing they had left there. Everything they did that night was to move to a perceived place of safety and monitor the tent. They didn't leave the flashlight at the tent but several hundred meters down the slope - http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-flashlight.jpg in my theory this has been left as a beacon. Also in my theory the BL would have illuminated the path and crucially the top half of the cedar. This assumes that any whiteout had subsided of course.
Nigel Evans
14-08-2017 22:24 (GMT)
@Loose-Cannon - YK's leg burn was too serious for him to be concious when it happened, a massive burn 30 cm long deep into the underlying tissue. Any worse and it could be served medium rare. But given he bit the back of his hand off and the skin was found in his mouth it seems he was concious after receiving the burn and trying to manage extreme pain.
Both YD and YK's injuries could have been as a result of electrocution btw... But the simpler (occam's razor) explanation is falling out of tree and being unconcious for long enough.
Only the returning three show this damage on both hand and face, and the pathologist describes most of the facial damage as abrasions or scratches. N.B. ball lightning has been blamed for similar injuries in India. The hand injuries are more difficult to explain but it seems fair to say that if they did punch other people it wasn't anyone else in the group... Except ZK perhaps whose cut on the top of her hand suggests it was cut on someone elses teeth or something else. The facial injuries don't fit the profile of a fight, no black eyes or nose/cheek bruises. So it follows if the faces don't have bruises from fists then the fist bruises must have been gained some other way. Maybe the nerve damage makes you behave as if extremely drunk. ID was found face up in a "boxer" pose which could be relevant.
John Wolfe
14-08-2017 22:20 (GMT)
Hi Nigel, um ..... the "Occam's Razor" suggestion is a good one but was not really directed ay your comments. However, they did cache both clothes and a few pieces of footwear at a small hut just before going up to their last tent location -- their diary specifically notes that fact, as they were lightening the load they were carrying. Also, I have spent two years living in a very similar climate -- including all winter in a small / windy ! / and unheated hut -- no fun many days from zero to -40 F . This was done about 15 years ago in Wyoming, USA. I am convinced that they thought they were running toward the cache / hut . Remember two things: 1) they pitched in a very windy storm; 2) it would have been very dark when they ran. nb: evidence includes at least one flashlight dropped at the tent site -- batteries dead but switch in the "on" position -- someone was in such a hurry to get away that they dropped a working flashlight and didn't even take the time to pick it up -- that's an extreme hurry !! a life-or-death hurry he kind that leads you to run downhill when you needed to run UP-hill. and almost the same distance away: see the map at home page: http://dyatlovpass.com/
Loose-Cannon
14-08-2017 21:09 (GMT)
When you get close to frostbite, your hands/feet etc are numb. It's easy to burn yourself in an attempted to warm yourself via fire. How does ball lightning explain the hand/hand combat injuries on several of the victims?
Nigel Evans
14-08-2017 16:39 (GMT)
@John Wolfe - hi there.
Apparently each frame of the photos has apparently been marked as from SZ's camera which i presume means they have been individually cut and the order lost. Imo the three heads would be the last shot and is taken from inside the tent with the three heads being the canvas fabric of one of the slits. Eagle 1 is an excellent shot of the object in the sky with the others demonstrating camera shake (it was very windy). So imo he took most of those shots of the sky outside the tent and then returned inside to find wow! it's just outside the tent. Then they got out of there real fast.
As said many times before imo the trip to the cedar was deliberate, they needed somewhere to shelter from the wind chill that allowed them to observe the BL back at the tent. The cedar seems to be the only satisfactory option. The tent contained their clothing and footwear and was their ONLY hope for survival longer term. The labaz was just a food store with some bits and pieces.
Imo the deaths occured because the BL flew down the slope and exploded near the ravine, the den collapsed crushing the occupants and the two Yuris fell out of the tree and suffered burns whilst concussed and unattended.
One of the theories for these lights are that they are solitons in an microwave field occupying many cubic kilometers of atmosphere, some research at Hessdalen points in this direction. N.B. there is an overlap with this theory and crop circles.
The remaining three died by not understanding the debilitating effect that the same microwave field could have even at at reduced energy That's why they all expired within 330 meters of each other, they had all suffered from the same debilitating force. Maybe climbing the mountain (back into the field) did it, maybe they had reached an exposure limit and were doomed anyway.
Yes i know Occam's Razor but, "Everything Should Be Made as Simple as Possible, But Not Simpler" - Albert Einstein.
Cheers.
John Wolfe
14-08-2017 15:36 (GMT)
one last post on this: as is usual in nearly all mountaineering accidents, there is usually an identifiable mistake that led to some disaster. I think I know what happened. The hikers - experiencing some very dangerous ball-lightning made a mad dash, without bothering to dress for the cold, to the safety of the cache of extra clothing and equipment -- only they made a fatal error in the dark and the panic. I have studied Russian, winter-time, videos of the area and can see why this could happen: to get to the ravine (false cache) they would only have the wind at their backs and would only have to run downhill -- whereas to go to the true cache they would have to first run UP-hill and into a strong wind. --- sad --- those of you who need to make fantastic explanations of secret Soviet plots or accidental missile tests or space aliens or the mythical yeti, I suggest you do a little reading at the Google page: https://www.google.com/search?site=webhp&source=hp&q=occam%27s+razor+definition&oq=occam%27s+&gs_l=psy-ab.1.2.0l2j0i131k1j0.3354.6347.0.13622.9.8.0.0.0.0.267.1228.0j6j1.7.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..2.7.1226.0..35i39k1j0i20k1.SIVSGrhXKb8
John Wolfe
14-08-2017 15:09 (GMT)
Hi Nigel -- I am wondering about the sequence stated for the Zolotaryov film. I am also very convinced from about two years of reading text books on lightning and some NASA posts that the Earth is far more electrical than I would expect -- and, as we all know, that electrical energy is very potent. Anyway -- getting back to the question about the order of the film: could this order be backward? The "first" frame shows something (I would say very close ball lightning) which is very close. My feeling on this is that a ball that large and close might have also exploded with near lethal force -- thus ending any photography. I would not expect it to be at the beginning of any film. Since this is a damaged and incomplete film it might be that the order is either reversed or random (if there were only a few frames usable in any way) Also - if those are three heads, could two be wearing hats? They are larger and not as rounded as the one on the left. A blast might have knocked them off. Is there a listing of any clothing items outside but near the tent?
Nigel Evans
12-08-2017 10:23 (GMT)
@Loose-Cannon - it's not my Koolaid, it's Ivanov's and the Mansi's. All i'm doing is using the internet to show they were right.
Loose-Cannon
11-08-2017 22:20 (GMT)
Unfortunately I have read everything you posted today and recently. Apparently your excuse for someone not 100% drinking your Koolaid is they must not have read your post. (roll eyes)
Hey... read my post. Its all there, end of discussion. ROFLMAO
Nigel Evans
11-08-2017 21:02 (GMT)
You're not reading stuff i've posted today or yesterday. What's the point in talking to you?
Loose-Cannon
11-08-2017 20:46 (GMT)
Or is that Romanian... Either way, I think that is whats needed as a proper debate platform etc without egos getting butthurt you didnt read their post 876 post down from last year.
Loose-Cannon
11-08-2017 20:41 (GMT)
Again... I am not going to read 1113 posts to find out what your executive decision on any given subject may be, nor will I control-f to search every word you type. Thats ridiculous.
This site is AWESOME for documenting information (whether is fact or fiction) for individuals to read and make their own minds up of whats what, but this comment page is far from being an organized message board. The Russians have it... maybe we need an English version. http://taina.li/
Nigel Evans
11-08-2017 20:27 (GMT)
"You are claiming a definitive fact that these pictures represent the tops of three heads and CAPTURING BALL LIGHNING"
You've gotta read the posts to know what people are saying.... Try a ctrl F with "fabric".
Loose-Cannon
11-08-2017 20:25 (GMT)
@KMM
"I was just asking because I do not see ANY of the theories so far explaining the DPI"
I have heard it randomly in videos etc, but it has never been a full blown theory that I know of. Basically they spent a whole 3 seconds stating something like "or did some of them live longer". I couldn't tell you where to find it as Im going off memory, but it wasn't enough to amount to anything. More or less and afterthought that was never elaborated upon.
KMM
11-08-2017 20:17 (GMT)
"The vast majority of this tragedy can NOT be considered as fact" = TRUE
Loose-Cannon
11-08-2017 20:14 (GMT)
"Bit of a pattern here"
Yup, your selective propaganda. If your going to quote me, copy the entire sentence.
"You are claiming a definitive fact that these pictures represent the tops of three heads and CAPTURING BALL LIGHNING"
KMM
11-08-2017 20:11 (GMT)
I was just asking because I do not see ANY of the theories so far explaining the DPI
Nigel Evans
11-08-2017 20:00 (GMT)
@Loose-Cannon - "You are claiming a definitive fact that these pictures represent the tops of three heads"
Nope you're wrong again. Bit of a pattern here ...
Loose-Cannon
11-08-2017 19:14 (GMT)
This is exactly the problem. You are claiming a definitive fact that these pictures represent the tops of three heads and capturing ball lightning. Dont get your panties in a wad when I tell you this, but its a FAR reach. Again, its great to have a personal biased theory but unfortunately like all the others, its not the only one. Dont get me wrong... I think ball lightning 'could' have played a roll, but its about as far fetched as any other theory out there and no one spiracy is better then the other. You posted about ball lightning, with a side order of a video about the Hessdalen lights. Sorry If I missed your three "three heads + eagle photos".
"But still the unbelievers continue to post nonsense theories that are easily shot down by the facts"
I believe this to be your issue... The vast majority of this tragety can NOT be considered as fact. You tend to think your theory is 'fact' and everything else is 'fiction'. I am open to the ball lightning idea, but to think it does not have holes with a side order of reaching, is a bit narrow minded.
Your comments and Mikeys, are very indicative of someone that feels they know it all and everyone else's opinion is moot. This thread has literally become an echo chamber of a few individuals feeding their own narrative as if they are the authoritarian whom gets to make the executive decision what happened to these poor ruskies. I didnt come here for your crap, but Ill be your huckleberry if you wish. The choice is yours.
Nigel Evans
11-08-2017 18:46 (GMT)
@KMM - Hi. Well imo one of the big questions is how did most of them survive for say a couple of hours in those conditions and avoid frostbite?
It's all there. But still the unbelievers continue to post nonsense theories that are easily shot down by the facts. There are none so blind as those that will not see. (pun intended) "
Note the last line, if you bothered to read what i'm posting you would know the answers to the questions you've just asked.
But to repeat myself....
A recent expedition to the DP observed a light for 4.5 hours. The Hessdalen lights can last for an hour and give off radar signatures (that's microwaves) that last for hours.
So the evidence fits the theory that they fled the tent because one of these lights had parked outside (could also be a loud rattling sound) and it stayed there for one or two hours preventing them from returning. Then it travelled downhill and exploded near the den which collapsed crushing the occupants, dead birds fell out trees as did the two Yuris who were up in the cedar getting bad frostbite. They were concussed and unattended which explains the burns.
There doesn't have to be a lightning storm for these DP lights, if you read the thread you would know that.
Loose-Cannon
11-08-2017 18:35 (GMT)
@KMM
With some of these guys often talking in cryptic messages with a lingo only understandable to them.. making up secret terms and crap expecting you to read 1103 post to be up to speed on their definitions.... I couldn't tell ya if its been mentioned by the god-squad.
However, I have read here/there of people mentioning the idea some of the victims 'might' have lasted another 12, 24, even 48hrs past the others. I believe the contents of their stomach indicate the time of all their deaths at less then 3hrs of each other. This is if you assume they all ate in the tent together at the same time and this was their lats meals.
KMM
11-08-2017 18:24 (GMT)
any theories on if any of the hikers might of survived the first night or longer ? I have not seen this mentioned
Loose-Cannon
11-08-2017 18:18 (GMT)
No, its titled "Zolotaryov's camera"... I have read ALL OF THIS SITE AND MORE. Why you are refering to it as "three heads eagle" blabla bork spit, I have no idea. Perhaps referring to it in a language we can all undersatad would be great!
Great... Zolotaryov's camera! Now we are all able to know wtf your talking about being in some kinda cult click. Geez
I see why you fancy the ball lightening idea. So, I guess the idea is they were scared crapless out of the tent after observing ball lightning, and moved to the treeline to get away from it. Whats your take on why they didnt go back to the tent, and why all the bad injuries? Wouldnt said ball lighting last maybe 5min if your extremely lucky... why not return after the episode? And again.... why climb the biggest tree around during a freak lightning storm?
@Loose-Cannon - but so what, shouldn't we be discussing the three heads + eagle photos?
Loose-Cannon
11-08-2017 14:40 (GMT)
"The technician in the crime lab was given a camera with a film inside which he has to develop and give back to the investigators. Old cameras have film in a cartridge, the camera makes a photo by (1) pressing the shutter and then (2) using the film advance lever to draw next blank frame from the cartrige. Some people did (2) right after (1), some did (2) right before the the shot. The technician has no way of knowing if the camera is in position (1) or (2). Rewinding the film is only possible in position (1). The technician can either use the film advance lever which will not work if the camera is in possition (2) or press the shutter which will not work if the camera is in possition (1). Pushing the lever too hard can damage the film. Usually the lab technicians pressed the shutter and if doesn't go off then the film can be rewinded. If it does go off then the film can also be rewinded but the there is one last technological photo which captures whatever is in front at that particular moment - wall, ashtray, table, papers, and a lot of undetifyable objects nearly always out of focus. The shutter of Krivonischenko's camera was cocked, so the notorious photo №33 came to life. Initially this frame was not presented in the investigation as pаrt of the film, and it should have remained that way, because introducing it at a later time inflated even further the monstrous significance that this photo was gaining."
Nigel Evans
11-08-2017 11:55 (GMT)
@Mikey - adding to the list of possibilities, it could be an aerial craft e.g. helicopter through to alien space ship So you've got a basis for a special forces theory, the helicopter accidentally crushes some of them and then the same team coverup to get out of trouble because they realise these people are well connected, so the state genuinely doesn't know about it. The rest of the group are herded together until they die of exposure to make it look authentic and then placed down the mountain with the fire and den being fabrications. The hot spot is from the exhaust.
Problems with the theory - the eagle 1 photo doesn't support it. The theory requires significant effort from the soldiers in arranging things but no sign of military footwear anywhere. But then the rescue group could have contaminated the area. One of the big anomalies with the DPI is that several of this group apparently die of cold but have little or no signs of frostbite in supposed -25C conditions with bare hands and only socks. The only possibilities would seem to be that they die of something else sooner, somehow it was a warm night or anything containing water molecules (including human bodies) was being artificially warmed... NTB was found with his gloves in the pockets of his unzipped jacket. It seems that they weren't that cold.... unless you were up a cedar and then the windchill reversed that...
Nigel Evans
11-08-2017 10:45 (GMT)
Just re wording :- It's a statistical impossibility imo that it's random damage/double exposure etc that just happens to look like a shot of a bright light source through wind blown snow behind a piece of fabric.
Nigel Evans
11-08-2017 09:29 (GMT)
@Mikey - well the list of what it could NOT be is rather long yes?
It's a statistical impossibility imo that it's random damage/double exposure etc and looks like a shot of a bright light source through snow behind a piece of fabric.
A photo of a flashlight returning to the tent is a good idea but in my amateur opinion it's too saturated. It's quite a bright light source and the snow in front suggests it's a some distance away which means it's too bright for a flashlight of that era. It's even in the right direction and possibly the right distance for it's position in the photo to be located at the hot spot...
Could be say a solid fuel rocket motor but there's no evidence found by the investigators. Recent expeditions to that area have spoken of hardware dumped somewhere nearby but it's my assumption that the investigation was not a coverup and this dump is subsequent to the dpi. The investigation team stayed there for months and the mountain was closed for three years (could have been further investigations).
Btw lets not forget the Eagle 1 Light (Eagle 2 is a blow up). This is exactly as described by one of the eye witness accounts, as a bright light in the sky surrounded by a mist or fog.
Imo there's only two possibilites for these photos, either they are intelligent forgeries produced for reasons unknown or they are genuine.
Loose-Cannon
11-08-2017 05:35 (GMT)
It isn't a 'serious discussion board' when any and all possible contributing factors cannot be discussed. Dont like an idea... move along. This is really more of a blog of sorts where you dont even have to join before posting... it just a 1k+ sunning single thread with no organization of posts, etc. If you really wanna get serious about this, you should start a full blown discussion forum..... kind like the one I own and operate here. http://sks-files.com/index.php And by the way, we happened to solve a Communist Chinese State secret as to how they serialize and date their small arms weapons. Not an easy task and could not have happened without may contributors and all angles looked at including surveys.
Pft... call 'me' the troll? I just have a very low tolerance for bull-sheet, and its lookin like we need some tall waders around these parts as its getting DEEP!
Loose-Cannon
11-08-2017 05:14 (GMT)
Laff... Ergotamine is the main psychoactive product of ergot fungi, its just a fact. Again, never have I stated they purposely ingested contaminated rye bread... only that its a possibility. Because I tell you what... however great hiker you think they may have been, they did some REALLY STUPID crap. I do not believe in big-foot, yeti, or anything of the sort. Do I think they had moldy bread.... no freaking clue. FYI, I am not attacking you, dont be such a snowflake. It only seems to me like your driving a narrative based on your own bias "undisclosed theory" with an authoritarian attitude of 'how we need to sold the mystery'. News flash.... you aint solving jack squat Mikey.
Is it fun to debate possible causes etc... sure. Just dont misrepresent something I toss out there and act as if thats my whole story and Im sticking to it because aliens made me do it.
You know what happened to these people? Whatever frick Mikey says, thats what I think.
Good grief man... "you and off-the-wall theorys are all the same"
Yeti, ball lightening, top secret weapons, special force commandos.... I mention st anthony's fire, and you go full retard.
Still waiting for the official release of the Mikey story. Ill have fun shredding it into 10,000 slices.
Mikey
11-08-2017 04:48 (GMT)
@ Loose-Cannon And WOW you attacked me for no real reason.
Good name you have. Maybe one day you will become more objective.
Mikey
11-08-2017 04:38 (GMT)
I want the FULL STORY on Ergot Poisoning. I want to know how you come to that conclusion when NOTHING points to that. But, maybe you have a wonderful UFO and Yeti story you will tell us next.
As a SERIOUS discussion board, you have turned around and given an Ergot Poisoning narrative?
Nobody there was doing LSD trips, not poisoned, and the like. I am sorry, but you and off-the-wall theorys are all the same. This could be something like attackers, ball lightning, even just natural causes.
Don't be a troll. People get on to you. Please leave us alone. Oh, and that pic of the guy from behind the tree, that's a Russian Yeti.
Trust me.
Loose-Cannon
11-08-2017 04:29 (GMT)
Naw man... Just there is an infinite scenarios, theories etc and none of them can be proven nor disproven. There is no real place to begin or end... the very first course of events are shrouded in mystery and highly debated. If you cannot know for certain why they left the tent, anything beyond that point is conjecture. If someone says "they didn't cut their way out of the tent", and someone else says "prove it", then I say "prove to me the did". You see the dilemma?
Mikey
11-08-2017 04:24 (GMT)
Ergot poisoning? Okay, I'll give you that. Elaborate. Tell us the story. I'll listen.
Mikey
11-08-2017 04:12 (GMT)
@ Loose-Cannon
Naw, I'll be happy to leave. I don't mind. I just thought maybe you and others would enjoy a semblance and direction on how we tackle this.
If we place things into certain areas of thought, maybe we can get somewhere and build off others ideas.
I'm very sorry I may have upset you. We all have different ideas. I just think if we go one by one, we can agree on a conclusion.
All is good. My opinion means nothing. Have at it.
Loose-Cannon
11-08-2017 04:07 (GMT)
Mold and rye bread... look it up.
Loose-Cannon
11-08-2017 03:49 (GMT)
Oh thank god... I thought Mikey would never return to tell us his 'air tight' theory and tell us what the facts are and what to discuss.
Mikey
11-08-2017 03:42 (GMT)
There is some talk of them doing LSD trips, being drunk, even the reindeer piss that the Mansi enjoyed.
I think this is the farthest from the truth.
These people were SERIOUS. Beforehand, there was an incident, but no big deal. Everybody had specialized jobs where each would be in question.
In the Soviet Union, back then, you don't play games with your future. If you did, you would be shunned.
It's not like you and I who take a few nips of Jack Daniels to warm up a bit. We ALL have. The alcohol in the tent was pretty much untouched.
Like I said, most of us would drink up, but they really didn't touch it. They knew it would be a burden, so, on a ski slope ready to climb a mountain, most would not even touch it.
I wouldn't.
Until all is done and we survived afterward.
Not even a taste.
More to think about.
Mikey
11-08-2017 03:08 (GMT)
@Nigel
This pic with the three heads and the overwhelming light...
While I don't doubt it's authenticy, have we gone through ideas of anything it COULD NOT be? We do know that some pics were compromised in development. Some that the party took were "double" images, one shot taken over another. A tree over top of a snowy street where in the middle of the pic, a closeup tree is clear but also superimposed over a street scene.
Some pics were that way, as you know. The pic in question is highly degraded, but enough to prove something there. Let's think about some different ideas. If we can prove that NOTHING ELSE is there, but the obvious, it must be.
Let us see if we can dispel it first. What else could it be? Maybe someone with a flashlight entering the tent?
Remember, dispel it FIRST, then we can move on to the next ideal.
This does not mean you are wrong, but let's try some ideas before making it complete lore.
I think you are right, on that pic, but I want to find ANY plausible idea before we move forward.
It may NOT be what we think.
Thanks for listening.
Mikey
11-08-2017 02:29 (GMT)
Hey, look. Lots of theories going on. I have my own but I am NOT going to place them on everyone UNLESS I know true, hard facts. I don't mind others telling me that I am "forcing" others to believe a story I find almost "airtight."
That's NOT a huge deal to me.
I will say, find FACTS. Many web-sites have lots of dis-information.
Case in point, The door to the tent was almost DIRECTLY toward the storage area. This leaves the idea of where the tent was situated. Some sites tell us WRONG information as to where the cuts were made. Some tell us that the cuts in the tent were UPHILL versus DOWNHILL.
You see?
Half of the people reporting this are WRONG. And people believe it. Obvious is obvious, the cuts were DOWNHILL.
Igor was the guy in charge. He decided the slope. Why? There was no real chance of avalanche, the slope would not afford that. So why? He may have decided that as no problems, it may be a good idea to pitch there to give the party a new idea and try something new, for experience.
I may even decide that.
As we see the pics of them digging in, to make a place for the tent, sure, it looks rough, snowstorm, wind everywhere, but that slope is deceiving. It is NOT as it seems...
Winds pick up, then go away and calm. All pics you see are NOT EXACT. There are many times that things are calm without what "looks" like a snowstorm. This is the way of this particular slope. Winds shift, and sometimes no wind at all.
(read stories about this area)
Semyon was the MOST experienced there. Igor was the party leader. Semyon may have tried to take over the party, but I doubt it. Maybe later, but we do know Lyuda gravitated toward the older people.
We also know that something happened at the tent. One person we know MAY have been hurt there. Slobodin. His injuries (cracked skull) and cold may have allowed him to get down the hill. Maybe even get to the cedar. If so, he went back to the tent. Maybe he never made it to the cedar and he decided to get back to the tent. This is up for negotiation. His injuries were bad. I will say, with cold, he may have been okay enough to still function, for a bit of time. Obviously, he did not die quickly, he was warm enough to leave an ice ideal where he was found.
Zina and Igor were in the same ideal. Going toward the tent. Zina got hit. HARD. The bruise shows she got hit by something across her side. Did this show she died by her injuries? I think not. We ALL live with such bruises. She got the farthest to the tent, but never made it.
Igor was somewhat of an anomaly. If he made it to the cedar (which I think they all did leave out Slobodin) yes. There may been a fight, I doubt that.. Between the party? No. I think not. These people, in a situation they were in, would NOT have fought amongst each other. Not fighting like punches. There was no reason. Some say Igor and Semyon were at odds with Zina, but why deal with that? That wasn't a big deal, especially at this time. And I don't think it ever happened.
So, we know the three up the hill, as much as we can say. The two at the cedar were left behind, being the fire to warm them, IF they keep the fire burning. Problem is that at those temps, no small fire is going to warm them. None.
Doom is doom.
So now you have FIVE of the party dead, as we see it. Each, except for Slobodin had relatively "NON LETHAL" injuries, as far as we know.
Correct?
So, I ask everyone here, let's get on this.
A good start. Let's NOT focus on the idea on what made them leave the tent, let's focus on the injuries of these five people to start.
Chunks of sod shifting next to a creek... omg ITS CUT OUT WITH LASER PRECISION! ROFLMFAO
Interesting how non of these 'investigators' were never harmed or otherwise had their skulls smashed in from it.
Mike Smith
10-08-2017 21:25 (GMT)
@Nigel I'm more apt to go Hessdalen lights angle. Admittedly, I'm only 20 minutes into it, but atmospheric ionization makes sense for that latitude, Dyatlov Pass is at the same. latitude as Anchorage Alaska if my math is right, that elevation is ripe for atmospheric lights in form of the famous Aurora. There's probably a distinction between Auroras and Hessdalen lights I'll read about. From personal experience, Auroras can change rom a spectrum of colors, though I think green is most common. For the picture I've found, Hessdalen lights look to have an amber,(Sodium), tint.
@Mike - yes that's why i said the DP and Hessdalen lights were different....
Mike Smith
10-08-2017 20:55 (GMT)
@Nigel. Ok, I'll recon DP and Hessdalen lights, but as we understand the phenomenal called "Ball Lightning" mentioned in the paper, it dosn't fit our situation, plus the authors state it is duration is 1-5 seconds.
Anna Yordanova
10-08-2017 20:50 (GMT)
Yes Nigel.It disappeared into the socket,making a popping sound.It moved in a straight horizontal line.
Nigel Evans
10-08-2017 20:46 (GMT)
@Anna - interesting it disappeared into the socket.
@Mike - "google "hessdalen youtube"
Nigel Evans
10-08-2017 20:38 (GMT)
@Mike - yes that's why i said the DP and Hessdalen lights were different.... This is getting surreal..
Anna Yordanova
10-08-2017 20:31 (GMT)
I have seen a ball lightning.Believe me or not.I was with my mother and there was a storm.All of a sudden a bluish,round ball;the size of an orange entered the room,moved across horizontally and popped into the socket.I was 6 years old.I never saw a ball lightning again.
Mike Smith
10-08-2017 20:12 (GMT)
@Nigel The paper linked does not describe our situation. We do not have medium to heavy rain fall. We do not have a thunder storm. We do not have a light wind. We are not on or next to a large body of water. Maybe our two rivers count. Maybe there is a scientific paper that supports ball lightning in the Ural Mountains in the winter time, but this isn't it.
This paper stipulates that ball lightening exists, this is a theory of the physics behind ball lightning, and states that it should be able to be reproduced in a laboratory. The condition they give does not describe the night at our campsite on Feb 1st 1959.
Nigel Evans
10-08-2017 19:54 (GMT)
Loose-Cannon - "Then how do we get cracked and crushed skulls and rib cages?" Are you reading anything i've written recently?
I moves along the ground and hits the tent. Wouldn't ALL 9 be zapped in one form or fashion? Ok, some got out before it hit... Then how do we get cracked and crushed skulls and rib cages? And wtf would you wanna be near the biggest tree around yet alone climb the damn thing?
Loose-Cannon
10-08-2017 19:40 (GMT)
Welp, to your credit... I actually found some video etc having ball lightning follow along the ground. I still find it highly unlikely.
Nigel Evans
10-08-2017 19:40 (GMT)
@Loose-Cannon - something tells me you haven't read this thread....
1. hot spot - http://www.viafanzine.jor.br/site_vf/pag/5/dyatlov_part04.htm . 2. raised footprints - "The snow is compressed with the weight or the individual and days/weeks of wind blow away the rest". Yes if it's 0C, not if it's at -25C. 3. Frostbite - this says it all imo - http://www.candac.ca/candac/Outreach/Teacher_Resources_Index/tri/31.pdf 4. It's a tough point to argue but afaik the team were surprised by the density of the snow. 5. Missing from the previous post was that the snow covering the tent was so hard that they damaged the tent chipping it off. Lightning storm - see reply to Mike.
Loose-Cannon
10-08-2017 19:19 (GMT)
"1. hot spot" Where is this 'hotspot'? Where is the documentation, pictures, dimensions, location etc? If this is conjecture based on one account of a rescue worker... How much faith to you have on this account? I would say when in doubt, throw it out.
"2. raised footprints last nearly four weeks in high winds" Really? I seen this myself... The snow is compressed with the weight or the individual and days/weeks of wind blow away the rest. This is NOT imho evidence of ball lightning.
3. virtually no frostbite on most of the individuals even though they were collecting firewood and building dens in their socks and bare hands. Judging by the looks of the corps, I would say nearly all of them show signs of frost bite or at least early stages there of.... The tissue doesn't have to be black and or brittle.
4. when they found the ravine four with avalanche probes it took a team of men a full day with shovels to dig down 4 meters because the snow was so hard and compacted. This is not typical of siberian wind drift (afaik). They were is the darn ditch for MONTHS after the event. Your literally talking about the majority of WINTER snow in freaking Siberia for petes sake. They have snow still melting in summer!!
Further more... From what I have researched, ball lightning typically takes place fairly high off the ground with only a regular bolt connecting to the ground. I would also have to say that there were other hikers within miles and you would thing some crazy freak thunder and explosions with huge light shows fallowing them around the mountain and woods would have been notices by the other hikers. It would have been obvious and documented out the ass by all involved.
But my main question regarding ball lightning is... WHO THE FRICK CLIMBS THE TALLEST TREE IN THE AREA IN A LIGHTNING STORM?
Nigel Evans
10-08-2017 19:00 (GMT)
@Mike Smith - the eyewitness reports at that time - ski party, colliery manager, investigation team and mansi beliefs clearly indicate it's not a rare event at that mountain. The frequency of these reports are part of the case for the theory.
As said before there seem to be different classifiactions, you're talking about the same as Wu - https://www.nature.com/articles/srep28263 . N.B. this type typically forms in lightnng storms but not always.
The DP lights seem to be a more aggressive form of the Hessdalen lights which are a persistent aerial discharge (can last for hours). They're probably caused by complex electro magnetic topologies in the atmosphere but a full explanation is for the science of the future.
Mike Smith
10-08-2017 18:31 (GMT)
@Nigel what I'm reading about this ball lightning is there needs to be a lightning storm in the area to act as a catalyst for the plasma. Was there a lightning storm reported on Feb 1? I read where there was a cold front expected that night or the morning of the 2nd.
Mike Smith
10-08-2017 18:04 (GMT)
@Nigel. If I'm in the camp of unbelievers its because ball lightning is such a rare event, and your proposing it as a cure all to everything under the sun including following our happy campers down the mountain and into the woods like a sentient predator. I said in the beginning, I'm apt to believe down to earth theories over those of the fantastical. Sorry, but I'm catagorizing ball lightning under the fantastical for now and it's way down on my list based on probability.
With the incompleteness of the forensics, many theories are viable including ball lightning.
If They were to recast X-Files, I think I would be cast more as Skinner than Mulder. No disrespect, just can't go there with you.
Nigel Evans
10-08-2017 17:17 (GMT)
@Loose-Cannon - by the postulated cause of ball lightning (electro magnetic radiation in the microwave region of the spectrum) warming the snow closer to it's melt point. This had the consequence of weakening the structural integrity of roof of the den and substantially consolidating it (making it more heavy). There are other indications of this warming :- 1. hot spot 2. raised footprints last nearly four weeks in high winds 3. virtually no frostbite on most of the individuals even though they were collecting firewood and building dens in their socks and bare hands. 4. when they found the ravine four with avalanche probes it took a team of men a full day with shovels to dig down 4 meters because the snow was so hard and compacted. This is not typical of siberian wind drift (afaik).
Then the ball lightning explodes nearby triggering the collapse of the den. Birds in nearby trees drop dead, treetops get singed and and YD and YK fall out of the cedar.
The bruising can be explained by the microwaves numbing limbs and causing repeated falls. That's how the returning three all give up within 330 meters, their limbs just wouldn't work properly as they climbed back up into a field of increasing intensity.
Good post from Lighting on this :- "Lightning 29-05-2017 13:16 (GMT) @Nigel Evans- microwaves can actually cause "debiitating force". "Occurring at 0.1 J/cm^2, nerve damage can lead to a numbness in the limbs. The microwave reaches 1 J/cm^2 for ball formation."
About ball lightning caused by microwaves, for those that don't know who Pyotr Kapitsa was, he was one of the most senior physicists in Russia, writing to Stalin to overrule Beria's interference of the atomic bomb development.
Pyotr Kapitsa proposed that ball lightning is a glow discharge driven by microwave radiation that is guided to the ball along lines of ionized air from lightning clouds where it is produced. The ball serves as a resonant microwave cavity, automatically adjusting its radius to the wavelength of the microwave radiation so that resonance is maintained.[67][68]"
The ball lightning theory answers all the facts and there are reliable eye witness reports of these lights and explosions during the DPI period.
It's all there. But still the unbelievers continue to post nonsense theories that are easily shot down by the facts. There are none so blind as those that will not see. (pun intended)
Bette
10-08-2017 17:04 (GMT)
Hi everybody,
It’s great to find so many Dyatylov aficionados on here. I have an idea about what happened. Here are the first three building blocks of my theory. Please let me know where I go wrong.
1] A fire log A log was found near the tent (eyewitness Maslennikov). This suggests to me that they planned to spend the night on the mountain. Bringing a fire log with you when you expect to set up camp in a wooded area (on the other side of the pass) doesn’t make much sense in the best of circumstances. In this case they even ditched all their surplus weight at the labaz that morning. They obviously didn’t think of the log as something they could do without. They had to bring their own firewood if they were going to camp on the bare slopes of Kholat Syakhi.
2] The stove The firewood wasn’t meant to be used in the stove. They never assembled the stove. And there is a perfectly good reason for this: There weren’t any trees on the bare slopes of Kholat Syakhi. Dyatylov’s stove didn’t look like an ordinary stove (as in the potbelly kind). It was more like an exhaust pipe hanging under the ridge of the tent, with a canister on one end (the actual “stove”) and the “chimney” (outside the tent) on the other. There’s an approx. drawing of it in the tent-section on here. Just imagine going to sleep with this burning hot contraption overhead. That takes a lot of bravery, or stupidity, or both. Regardless of modern day safety instructions, the hikers knew they had to fasten their exhaust pipe to some solid structure. In loose photos 4 and 5 you can see the guy ropes extending from the middle of the tent (i.e. the pipe) and going upwards to the trees. Without trees they didn’t have any fastening points for their stove. On the bare slopes of Kholat Syakhi it was unusable.
3] A snow shelter It seems that the hikers decided on a different method to stay warm. A snow shelter. In loose photos 7 and 8 you can see them digging much deeper than needed for just leveling the ground. They are up to their waists in snow. That’s about the height of their tent (1 meter). In the picture taken by the search and rescue party (on this site in the section “tent”) you can see how the tent is dug in as well. To me it seems like a sensible decision. Whether they were able to erect (?) suspend (?) the stove or not, a blazing hot exhaust pipe doesn’t do you much good on a windswept mountainside. All that heat dissipates before you can say “icicles”. Digging in and letting the body heat of nine sardines in a can do the rest would probably be the better option. Perhaps that’s why they went up there in the first place. To practice this all important (level 3?) winter survival skill: building a snow shelter.
Loose-Cannon
10-08-2017 16:21 (GMT)
How does ball lighting bash skulls, crush chest cavities, and give people injuries consistent with fist fighting? Imh, ball lighting is one of the weakest theories.
Nigel Evans
10-08-2017 16:12 (GMT)
@Mike Smith - the ball lightning theory is the only one that fits all the facts and eye witness reports in that region in that period. Plus there's even photographic evidence.
Mike Smith
10-08-2017 15:41 (GMT)
Apologies Nigel. The videos look to have been posted by a John Wolfe.
Loose-Cannon
10-08-2017 15:38 (GMT)
Heck, any one of them could have stuck their hand in an existing hole and ripped downward. I wouldn't narrow it down to whomever had a cutting device. After the tent was more/less destroyed, there wouldn't be any point in returning to it for shelter.... only to retrieve its contents. However, by this time (in the woods) its a strong possibility they couldn't even see the tent due to conditions (reason to climb tree) and would have to hang out a while for visibility to improve (start a fire). By the time anyone attempts to return to the tent for goods, several have already died of exposure and a few will die attempting to reach the tent. Yuri and Yuri may have been observing the others progress for the tree. Its all conjecture but a few individuals show clear signs of kicking someone's ass or getting their ass whipped.
Mike Smith
10-08-2017 15:23 (GMT)
@Nigel. I got to go back and check out the lecture you posted on lightning.
Mike Smith
10-08-2017 15:08 (GMT)
@Loose-Cannon, a wind slab is still my #1 theory, but I have not dismissed the argument/fight Theory. Yuri Krivonischenko would be my candidate. He looks to have carried a fixed blade knife with him, which would be the preferred tool for slashing a tent. Based on the incident at the train station, he dosn't seem to have an aversion to trouble or causing a scene: Yuri ends up at the losing end of an argument, "I need some air", "Yuri we've already secured the tent, just chill out", "Screw you guys. I'm out of here", and slashes the tent and heads down the slope and the crew takes off after him.
Of Course Dyatlov had a lot of pride and felt ownership for the hike. The tent modification was his. The custom stove was his design. The organization of the hike was his. If his command was challenged due to the navigational mistakes or the choice of camp sight, I could see Dyatlov blowing a nut. Did he have have a fixed blade or locking knife? It could have been done by a hatchet. Modern forensics could make that determination. I would have thought 1959 forensics should have been able to correlates slashes to knifes and hatchets. Not sold on this, the forensics of the tent slashes is a completely mess. As always we ar against a wall of incomplete information.
Nigel Evans
10-08-2017 15:07 (GMT)
@Mike Smith - i'd agree that the "crime" scene was poorly handled. The first people on the scene were students from the university and they were interested in rescue not a criminal investigation so the tent and it's contents weren't respected.
@All non believers in the one true ball lightning theory - No one's put it better than Sherlock Holmes :-
"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?". This was Ivanov's conclusion. None of the murder theories stand up.
Q Why did they flee the tent in their socks but then light a fire? A. Because it was a non sentient threat.
Q How could they have been dropped from a height and not broken limbs? A It's not possible, they were crushed not dropped.
Q. If the state did it why woud they spend so much money investigating it? A. Because the state didn't do it and was concerned about defection of sensitive assets.
Loose-Cannon
10-08-2017 05:36 (GMT)
Correction... looks like it was a debate on which cedar it was. #1 or #2. Ruskies say #1
I am sure that their deaths are not result from natural or environmental factors.They were killed.Where is the piece of clothing recognized by yuri Yudin that did not belong to any of them?Mysteriously disappears.Why?Because the authorities didn`t want any further digging into the case.I still think that the killers have been in the storage house and the hikers have been targeted.Someone wanted them dead.
Loose-Cannon
09-08-2017 21:20 (GMT)
Hell, just look at a few pics of Igor... He has the Charles Manson eyes if I've ever seen em. We even have a picture of him climbing a tree like some kinda monkey. That boy is a few fries short of a happy-meal for certain.
Loose-Cannon
09-08-2017 21:16 (GMT)
Toss a few in a ditch, one gets away but dies on the slope... You know, something logical. Wouldn't be the first time someone went full-retard on a group of people.
Loose-Cannon
09-08-2017 21:14 (GMT)
If any movie should be made on the subject... It should be where Igor gets increasingly frustrated at the Zina Yuri love affair going on under his nose while he is getting strung along by her in typical tease fashion. Then, on the side of that mountain something triggers him resulting in him going full-retard on the group. One gets a crack across the skull with a baseball bat similar log, another gets pounced on from outta the tree, a few get beat unconscious and eventually freeze. Even his precious Zina who broke his heart gets a few knuckle samiches to the face, and a crack across the waist with the stick/log.
Loose-Cannon
09-08-2017 21:05 (GMT)
Stupid auto-correction... I am not responsible for what my phot types. Umkay..... Lol
Loose-Cannon
09-08-2017 21:03 (GMT)
If anyone within the party had a motive to go ape-sheet, it would have been Igor. Once unleashed, there would likely be no turning back as his reputation with the University etc would be ruined. Silence people cannot tell on you.
Mike Smith
09-08-2017 19:25 (GMT)
Nigel I have disagree with you about the importance of which side the tent was slashed. I think modern criminologists would agree that it is one of the most important pieces of information. Of course these are 1959 criminologists. Maybe I'm the only one, but I kind of get the idea that they are a bit out of their depth. I would think in Russia there would be forensics experts that would specialize in these types of cases. But these investigators seem to be a bit heavy handed with the crime scene evidence I get the feeling we have investigators more comfortable prosecuting participants in bar fights then actually using the inductive skills that their titles would suggest.
I'm stating what everyone already knows. We are dealt big with an incomplete or misleading data set either through accident or intent.
As for a heated argument/fight, I've seen particapents do some pretty irrational things. I can't ignore it.
Anna Yordanova
09-08-2017 17:46 (GMT)
Those in the ravine were dropped from a high while probably unconscious.Horizontal deceleration injuries include skull fracture,intracranial hemorrhage,sternal fractures,fractured ribs.If they have been walking they would have Vertical deceleration injuries compatible with fractures on the lower part of the body like legs and feet.They have fractured ribs and chest and also one of them severely fractured skull and neck.This for me exclude the possibility for them to walk to the ravine.
Loose-Cannon
09-08-2017 17:13 (GMT)
None of my quotes were from Igor
Nigel Evans
09-08-2017 16:47 (GMT)
Just trying to help. Your post about ID's irritability combined with his last diary entry does suggest to me that he didn't like the next step in the plan but orders are orders and SZ was there to make sure they were obeyed.
Also something I haven't suggested before is that the EM radiation from ball lightning can induce a sound, perhaps a rattling and they might have fled because of perceived noise.
Loose-Cannon
09-08-2017 16:23 (GMT)
Never have I mentioned shrooms or sex. Again, I only offer possible contributing factors. I'll be the last person you find claiming to know what happened from A to Z. Don't? patronize.
Nigel Evans
09-08-2017 16:17 (GMT)
Add some acid, magic mushrooms and some group jiggy jiggy to stay warm and you've got yourself a theory......
Loose-Cannon
09-08-2017 16:07 (GMT)
Then you add in the fact Igor has put them in a deadly situation, at one point or another most boys on the trip admitted to having a crush on Zina, Igor is currently Zinas tease victim, Zina brought her ex-boyfriend along for the trip, and the 38 year old is a known creepy womanizer.
Add in a little alcohol and some physical and mental stress..... You may have an issue.
Loose-Cannon
09-08-2017 15:56 (GMT)
Blonde chicky....
"Nobody wanted to take this Zolotarev first, for he is a new man, but then they spat and took, because you can not refuse"
"They talked all sorts of nonsense, of course, everyone was interested, everyone said, Trying to shout over each other and refute other statements"
"even sometimes he says something insulting. Does he think I'm some kind of fool. And I generally like to pour oil on fire, damn me. "
"The mood is bad and probably will be two more days. Evil as hell."
Brunette chicky....
"Last night the boys stupidly joked. In my opinion, they do not need to pay attention, maybe they will be less rude."
"Igor all the evening was rude, I just did not recognize him."
Nigel Evans
09-08-2017 14:24 (GMT)
Nothing if they elected to make the diversion. The Ortorten Times entries that evening show them in good spirits.
Loic
09-08-2017 14:15 (GMT)
Hi guys,
It's not easy to have in mind what the place of the event looks like. Unfortunaly I don't speak russian, but I've found 2 russian amateurs videos interesting to watch to "feel" the Khlolat landscape
@Mike Smith - what sort of heated argument could have them going down the hill in their socks and then building a fire and a den when everything is at the tent?
The rescue party created one of the slits chipping through the very hard snow, which is an indication (together with the hot spot and raised footprints) that the snow had been warmed and refrozen. They also removed one of the sections to get inside from memory. But afaik all the other slits are original or caused by flapping (not very probable imo).
Personally i don't think the question of the slit being cut from inside or outside is very important. If outside it could still have been one of the two better dressed. More important imo are the numerous slits, they were observing something very important. You don't cut that many slits to watch the moon... and then there's the three heads photo...
No my theory for the ravine four is that they were crushed in the den and had to be quickly dug out (suffocation in approx 30mins) and laid a few meters away from it. What first aid could be given for a crushed skull, flail chests and a corpse? Except perhaps gather clothing from the dead to assist the living.... This fits with the evidence, SZ wearing LD's stuff, pathologist said he would have outlived her.
Mike Smith
09-08-2017 12:34 (GMT)
My parents time of exploration would have been about the same time 57-62'ish. They were Americans and their exploration was in the Washington Cascades. I just remember how heavy their equipment was from skis to tents, to the cooking kits. Without exaggerating, I think modern equipment is a 10th the weight of their 50s counterpart.
Mike Smith
09-08-2017 12:11 (GMT)
@LooseCannon I've never completely dismissed a heated argument in the group that may have gotten out of hand. What muddies the water is we don't really have a clear understanding of the cuts in the tent. As, I think you pointed out, there was some entries in the journal on some angst caused by the mending of them. I wish the search crew could tell us which cuts were theirs, and which were pre-existing. I'll have to see if there is something in the forensics with a breakdown. I think you mentioned that the cut-from-the-inside stuff may have been cause by a a partially collapsed, stiff frozen tent rubbing against items inside when the wind blows.
@Nigel with the theory of the Igor, Slobadin, and Zina looked after the four in the creek bed before heading back to the tent for supplies. I need to better understand the position of the snow shelter in relation to the creek bed. If the 4 were alive, I would think they would have tried to get them to the snow shelter. There dosn't to appear to be any type of first aid given. Under this scenario I would think Igor, Slobadin, and Zina were trying to get up to the tent to save themselves with no intention of coming back down.
Nigel Evans
09-08-2017 08:03 (GMT)
They would dry their clothes by draping them over the stove. If they misjudged adding firewood to the stove in the night they could scorch them.
Their behaviour at the cedar is too organised to be hallucinating/intoxicated/crazy etc.
ZK/ID/RS were trying to return to the tent after digging the ravine 4 out and nursing them. That all three gave up within 330 meters of each other is significant imo. Could be windchill or could be microwaves. ZK's face was covered in blood from scratches and abrasions.
The two Yuris show much more frostbite than any of the others. Probably because they were observers in the cedar and suffered far more wind chill. Falling from the cedar and lying concussed and unattended can explain the burns. An explosion could cause this and would explain the collapse of the den and the dead birds.
Loose-Cannon
09-08-2017 04:58 (GMT)
Speaking of burn marks. What is the common conclusion as to why the one dude (im bad with names) was pictured days beforehand posing in a shredded up coat/jacket that is presumably burned?
I read something in one of the journals about a camp fire that got out of control, but there was no mention regarding any coat/jacket being burned up in the process. You would think if this were the case, it would be a key part of the story in the journal.
Or.. could this be another mysterious Igor stove conundrum?
Loose-Cannon
09-08-2017 04:50 (GMT)
@Mike
I contemplated the same idea. If you were walking down hill and collapsed due to (insert reason here), you likely would not willingly go down on your face. You would naturally plop down on your azz and lay back from there... Possibly roll over. To me, the head facing orientation is irrelevant for several reasons. I can picture those two never making it down in the first place, but it also makes me ask why would they not even make it to the tree line given they were fresh outta the tent? This was a ruski that was bit by a viper and refused to transfer her load onto the rest of her team on a previous trip.
I also think of all these ideas of who some of the victims must have been fighting with given the nature of their 'hand to hand combat' injuries to the knuckles, temples, mouth etc. In my opinion, they were fighting among themselves and not against some intruder etc.
Mike Smith
09-08-2017 04:33 (GMT)
I like the theory that Slobadin and Zina never made it down the hill. And, Igor borrowed a jacket and headed back up to look for them. That is backed by the fact that they do not appear to be wearing borrowed clothes nor have burn marks like those that might have been trying to stay warm next to the bonfire. Why face toward the tent? It might've been more comfortable to lay that way rather than downhill , or it might've been easier to resist the highwinds facing up hill.
Loose-Cannon
09-08-2017 02:45 (GMT)
Continuation..
What I find odd is all this crap thats presumed to be 'fact'.
Example: Some Russian made the executive decision that the tent was slashed open from the inside. Now everyone considers this as fact right? Welp, what if there were already numerous rips in the canvas (Igors jacket stuffed in hole) and like the blonde chicky states in her diary (I used my time on duty sewing up all the darn holes in the tent blah bla bork spit). Lets just think logically here for a moment.... If you have a tent already full of holes collapsing in on itself in full-retard speed wind on the side of a mountain flappin away for WEEKS and rubbing on god knows what inside the tent... Ya think those holes/rips may get bigger? Point being.... Instead of running in circles trying to figure out why they slashed their way out, perhaps you can also debate why they may have buttoned up the front expected to return but not. Thats the outside of the box thinking I'm talking about.
Loose-Cannon
09-08-2017 02:32 (GMT)
@Mikey
"Oh, come on, LSD panic? Let's be serious here because these people were SERIOUS hikers. Let's NOT turn this into some sort of event where everybody lost their collective minds. Look at this objectively, okay?"
"There are a LOT of stories and posts out there (on the internet) that get facts WRONG."
"This forum provides us to toss out ideas as we see fit."
"I certainly won't go out of my way to afford everyone with some stupid explanation of UFO's or the Yeti nor Elvis impersonating someone in the Dyatlov party."
No offense Mikey, but your posts seem a tad.... Hypocritical? My replies may be short when working. I only tossed something out there for folks to chew on a while without being able to go into full bible length detail on the subject. I do however find it quite high-horse of you to NOT even entertain the slightest new idea someone puts forth without even doing a simple google search and find out wtf the person is referring to. If this is going to turn into a 'mikey says hes unbiased?, but is actually SUPER biased As long as it fits HIS narrative'.... I'll be taking my ball and leaving. The choice is ultimately up to you.
On a side note... I didn't just stumble into this crap because I recently saw Devils Pass. I did some pretty hard research om the subject years ago for my own self satisfaction. While I may not remember what food they packed or remember every word written in the diaries, I have a fair understanding of story line and main information that can be considered as fact and not conjecture. While I may not fancy some theories, you will not find me blatantly dismissing other folks opinion without thought or consideration.
Side note: My mother inlaw grew up roughly 100mi from where this happened and was of the age 9. If you don't think unregulated food products in back-woods Soviet Union can manifest unintended side effects from moldy rye used in bread.... You haven't done your research. I am not claiming this as a fact, nor that it was ingested purposely. Its simply a possibility, just like its 'possible' some nuke grads could have made a radioisotope heater the Russian gov just may not have wanted anyone to find out about.
Side note #2. Have you ever taken LSD? If so, you should know that peoples minds tend to grasp onto some wild idea and not let it go. You may find yourself searching for Atlantis in a field of grass because the bark on a tree led you to believe it was there. You may start your 'trip' with 8 other people and within a few hours have no freaking clue where they all went because you were so wrapped up in Atlantis hidden in the weeds. Perhaps in a few days you will contact your 8 buddies and find out where they went, with whom, what they did etc.
Mike Smith
09-08-2017 01:49 (GMT)
Waiting for my baseball game to start. This is probably wrong but figure I would post the tree line scene that been running through my head.
The two Yuri's died of hypothermia pretty quick. I'm thinking the group didn't realize how dire their condition was, and gave them instructions to start a fire, maybe with other people to help. We don't know. Anyway as we know, it failed and some of the two Yuri's clothes were collected. Meanwhile Igor is doing what he does and is trying to organize the others into two groups. One to work on a snow shelter and the other to go up to the tent for supplies. I could see everyone putting their 2 cents in and Zena getting pissed off and giving them a quick jester of disapproval, as she start heading up the hill, Slobadin's takes off after her. After Igor puts Sasha in charge, he takes off after Slobadin and Zena. As we know they never make it back and after a certain time, in their hastily constructed snow shelter, our 4 survivors decide they better go find some firewood and get a fire started. They stay together. 3 or all 4 end up fallout into the ravine that was hidden in someway probably with an ice/snow bridge or maybe just brush. After that I'm lost. I think Sasha and Lula died quick but hitting rocks, but the other two I'm not sure about.
Mike Smith
09-08-2017 01:16 (GMT)
Not an expert on wind slab,( I only learned they existed about 2 days ago), but I'm guessing their slippery. Slippery downhills are something I'm familiar with from my youth in the northern climates. You can't run down them even if you want to. Also never went down a slippery hill with 8 of my fellow compadres, but I'm guessing they might have used each other for support. Not sure if that's it. Just a thought.
Mikey
09-08-2017 01:05 (GMT)
@Mike Smith
I enjoy your candor. This is refreshing.
We do know facts on this. As much as we can ALL go by. The investigators (Russian translation "search engines" did do some diligent work. But not enough. Remember, the Soviet Union was full of lies and of course mis-steps. Covering things up, no matter the banal it could be, was worthwhile to them at the time. It COULD have been a complete natural death on everyone. Sure. Is it possible? Of course.
The thing is that even a "natural" death seems suspect. Lots of things have to happen to create such a horrendous outcome. I think we all agree on that.
We have to think about what NOT made them leave the tent. All that is speculation. What needs to be focused on is, to start, why they did not run but WALKED down the slope. They did not run. Single file, 8 or 9 tracks according to the investigators. If 8, then why?
Slobodon was carried? who knows. but these questions need answered FIRST befor we all get to the cedar.
And I thank you for your investigation. All helps.
-Mikey
Mike Smith
09-08-2017 00:22 (GMT)
@Mikey what I found agrees with what you have. The The stove was found in the center of the tent in its case. There was a piece of wood outside of the back of the tent which would've provided for a warm breakfast. Or maybe that was for the next campsite.
Mike Smith
08-08-2017 23:49 (GMT)
There have been theories rolling around that the "Event" happened while the evening rations were being prepared,(as much preparation is involved with cold rations ) and everyone was getting ready for bed . I think I agree with this based on the varying degrees of dress among our hikers, the food being out but little having been consumed, and their kit still being spread out, which would not facilitate nine people sleeping in very tight quarters.
Mike Smith
08-08-2017 23:29 (GMT)
Glad you brought that up Nigel. I just read similar information about the tent and it correlates with yours. The tent could be either raise to its full height with the side walls exposed. This is the configuration where the stove could be used. The tent could also be configured down where the side walls are folded and only the angled roof is exposed. This position is used because it reduces exposure to the wind,( which sounds like there was an abundance ), and the roof could be supported by ski poles with less reliance on guy lines. What I was reading there was one piece of wood found near the back tent wall, which investigators thought might be used for a quick warm breakfast in the morning. That makes me think of in a pinch they could get the stove working in the down position for a short time. Maybe they just laid the stove outside the entryway i'm cook that way. I guess with all the dust settles I am convinced that they intended to sleep in the tent with no heat in temperatures close to 0°F.
Moose
08-08-2017 23:29 (GMT)
Thanks for the book recommendations Nigel! I will order the two you suggested.
As to my post below, I don't wish to be on the offensive. By no means. There are a LOT of stories and posts out there (on the internet) that get facts WRONG.
The investigation was botched from the beginning. All WE have to go by is what WE, as informed people (and of course menial investigators) have at our fingertips. Many of us are NOT professionals at this.
This forum provides us to toss out ideas as we see fit.
I certainly won't go out of my way to afford everyone with some stupid explanation of UFO's or the Yeti nor Elvis impersonating someone in the Dyatlov party.
There IS an answer to this. If everyone looks in all the cracks and crevasses and finds an airtight solution, I'm happy. I know what I believe so far, but then I am willing to listen to others' ideas as well.
An open mind.
-Mikey
Mikey
08-08-2017 21:57 (GMT)
Oh, come on, LSD panic? Let's be serious here because these people were SERIOUS hikers. Let's NOT turn this into some sort of event where everybody lost their collective minds.
Look at this objectively, okay?
CLOTHES: There were two types of clothes these hikers wore. We KNOW this. Outdoor hiking clothes and indoor sleeping clothes. Most were ready to bed down for the evening and have a meal before sleeping:
"The departure of the woodpeckers from the tent to the cedar, they explained by the long nature of the danger that took place on the slope and prompted hikers to urgently seek salvation in the Lozva Valley. Since the clothes of the dead clearly did not match the weather conditions, Moscow experts suggested that the danger caught up with those at the time of dressing."
The meat stash was open but wasn't really touched:
FOOD:
"The attention of the rescuers who tilled the tent attracted a large, kilogram by 3 weight, a piece of ham-loin extracted from the bag, and a strip of pigskin skin, torn from the ham, lying on the blanket. At the time when an emergency occurred with the group of Dyatlov, the hikers clearly intended to cut this "loaf" for reception in food."
There ya go.
Both of the above in italics explain why things are the way they were that night.
THE STOVE:
Igor- "He was the developer of a small-sized stove, which was used in trek in 1958-59. And proved its functionality. According to some reports, Dyatlov, it seems, was invited to stay in UPI after graduating from the institute to continue his scientific work. By 1959 Igor had considerable experience of distant hikes of varying degrees of complexity and among the members of the sports section of the sports club UPI was considered one of the most experienced athletes."
ALSO:
"Two bowlers, and also a cylindrical stove. Witnesses described the condition of the stove in different ways: some claimed that it was stuffed with chips and wood chips, while others said that parts of the chimney had been disassembled inside. For us it is important now to note that the stove at the time of emergency was clearly not used by the group for its intended purpose."
"Igor Dyatlov's hanging stove and chimney assembled (they were not used during the last night and found on the floor of the tent). Zone "A" - a place to the left of the entrance, where almost all the footwear of the group was found to be dumped."
There are many facets to this investigation. I have read that items in the tent were indeed re-arranged into small piles when found. Some investigating this in later years explain that the rescuers were "willy-nilly" at documenting everything in the tent, including taking a bottle of alcohol FROM THE TENT and drinking it that night, which belonged to the Dyatlov party. It has been documented.
ALCOHOL:
"Over dinner, the search engines decided to drink alcohol found in Dyatlov's tent, which was done with considerable (and quite understandable) enthusiasm. The episode with alcohol drinking is a very important point, which now needs to be paid attention, since it will still have to return in the course of the subsequent narrative. Then there was a very curious exchange of remarks, which can not be ignored. Boris Slobtsov offered to drink to the health of the wanted guys, to which forester Ivan Pashin responded very grimly: "You'd rather drink for the rest!" The students were enraged, considering the replica of the local resident cynical and inappropriate, the case almost came to a fight. Even then, after the discovery of the abandoned tent, none of them wanted to believe in the bad ... "
The initial investigation had many flaws.
I hope this answers some questions you may have.
-Mikey
Loose-Cannon
08-08-2017 20:24 (GMT)
How much LSD bread did they buy in town l, and were they tripping balls?
Loose-Cannon
08-08-2017 16:34 (GMT)
Ah.. my mistake. I was referring to the aqua lines. Yes, the dark blue line is a runoff drainage area (bottom of valley)
Nigel Evans
08-08-2017 16:28 (GMT)
Not sure, the text that looks like "BoAa" means water (and it's a blue line...).
If anyone's interested you can translate the text in the image by finding the right keys here - http://www.lexilogos.com/keyboard/russian.htm and then copy and paste into google translate.
Loose-Cannon
08-08-2017 16:07 (GMT)
The blue lines show the search line direction.
Loose-Cannon
08-08-2017 16:05 (GMT)
No... The dotted line is the treeline in your pic. Its squiggly and dips down like a U. Its accurate I guess.... Just misleading. No brush at all out past Igor towards the tent, and the 'brush, Igor was in is EXTREMELY thin at best.
Nigel Evans
08-08-2017 15:58 (GMT)
Thanks for the photo but i think it confirms the map if you assume he's including brush. But it's a good photo in explaining their decisions. The text that looks like KeAp is the cedar. So they headed straight for it. The blue line appears to be the ridge. So imo the only tree that appeared above the ridge when they set off was the top part of the cedar.
So although the brush was nearer it wouldn't have provided shelter from the wind. They opted to go further down for proper shelter and a vantage point to observe back to the tent.
Loose-Cannon
08-08-2017 15:38 (GMT)
Bingo... You are now seeing the correct treeline on the image you linked to. Its misleading
Loose-Cannon
08-08-2017 15:34 (GMT)
Study this carefully and let me know what you see...
The tree line is the wiggly dashed line? Happy to be shown the map is incorrect.
Loose-Cannon
08-08-2017 15:00 (GMT)
He was likely going off of where the 'brush' leading up to to the actual tree line was at, but even at this I find it problematic and nobody is without faults. If you observe the pictures of the three victims found that were said to be returning to the tent, Igor is in very light/thin brush, and the other two further out are in full open plains on the side of the mountain.... Nothing but wind swept snow. If you go by that drawing, all three were well within the trees. I don't buy it. I joined the Russian forum site dedicated to this and later on I can post some actual photos that may show what Im talking about. That drawing is inaccurate and misleading.
Nigel Evans
08-08-2017 14:44 (GMT)
From memory it was drawn by one of the investigation team.
Loose-Cannon
08-08-2017 14:28 (GMT)
That drawing is somewhat inaccurate and misleading.
That doesn't make sense. Literally everything I have seen and read states the cedar is just inside the treeline. No way they went 1000m past the treeline into the woods.
Nigel Evans
08-08-2017 13:55 (GMT)
The cedar is 1500m away. But that's not the tree line.
Loose-Cannon
08-08-2017 13:38 (GMT)
Seems I normally find 1.5 kilometers quoted as the distance to the tree line. Sure looks further then 500m the the photos.
Nigel Evans
08-08-2017 12:41 (GMT)
@Loose-Cannon - " I HIGHLY doubt there was anyone else screwing around up there other then themselves.". Absolutely agree.
There are other 'dirty' materials that would do the same job.
Like others have stated.... Judging by the last set of photos, they were digging in under extreme whiteout conditions on the side of a mountain with VERY limited visibility and extremely low neg temps. I HIGHLY doubt there was anyone else screwing around up there other then themselves. In my opinion, the first huge mistake was attempting to traverse that ridge under such conditions in the first place, secondly deciding to stay the night on that mountain only 1mi from a forest line. I don't care how experienced they were..... They made one huge mistake after another which cost them their lives.
Nigel Evans
08-08-2017 11:56 (GMT)
@Mikey - when i try and open that link it translates the page and then clears it. So i can't read it.
Nigel Evans
08-08-2017 11:51 (GMT)
@Loose-Cannon - Plutonium 238... Hmmm.
Nigel Evans
08-08-2017 11:50 (GMT)
@Moose - hi, i've read "Don't Go There - Post Mortem" and "Dyatlov Pass Keeps It's Secrets". Both are good pieces of research, DGTPM includes a full translation of the PM reports. DPKIS includes a lot of links to the statements of individuals from the rescue/investigation teams (in Russian). DGTPM attempts to suggest a solution which i don't agree with, DPKIS wisely just discusses all the main theories.
Anna Yordanova
08-08-2017 11:40 (GMT)
I think that the cedar`s branches were broken not because they observed the tent but because they were trying to locate Dubinina,Kolevatov,Tibeaux-Brignolle and Zolotaryov.Dyatlov as the leader of the group thought that they probably will be able to see where they have been taken by climbing the tree.They were trying desperately to climb the tree in order to see what is going on with their friends.They did not observed the tent ,they were trying to see where is the rest of the group.
Anna Yordanova
08-08-2017 10:52 (GMT)
Probably one of them was kidnapped in the tent.The killers sneaked silently and broke from the front.There were footprints from 8 not 9 people,which makes me think that one of the group was taken inside.The others cut the tent and started running but were stopped by fire guns.Again Just a thought.
Hi Everyone, Looking for a book recommendation for someone already familiar with the case. Looking to read something that gets into a bit more detail than some of the more main stream books out there. Thanks!
Loose-Cannon
07-08-2017 23:22 (GMT)
In addition, I saw that 'group diary' page but didn't seem to read anything like you guys quoted. What am I missing... Where are their individual personal diaries?
The main issue is.... You only have the evidence reluctantly given by the Russian government. Its the information in which they wont release that will forever fubar any investigation attempts. Given the server lacking of information regarding this home made heater contraption, and these peoples field of study... I would keep an open mind.
wikipedia/en/e/e8/Radioisotope_heater_unit.gif
Mike Smith
07-08-2017 22:42 (GMT)
Thanks Nigel. I've run across that picture. Hopefully I'll run across some more info. Hopefully, like someone's how's actually tried to build one. I need to find a Dyatlov inventory. One of the theories for the presence of radiation was that old school kerosene mantles were made with Thorium, which is radioactive and that is where the reading came from. Anyone who who replaced the mantles probably get some of it on them. Of course we know that two of our happy campers worked at facilities that processed radioactive material.
Sidetracked, anyway if our resourceful campers could use the kerosene lamp/s for heat, that would save them from foraging for wood.
Nigel Evans
07-08-2017 22:21 (GMT)
@Mike Smith - http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-tent-03.jpg seems to show enough imo. It's just a set of tubes that can be dismantled to be carried. The person on watch had to sleep next to the stove and put firewood in when required. Haven't heard of the lamps. They had torches.
Don't think it was nuclear powered...
@Loose Cannon - under the section titled "Diary".
Mike Smith
07-08-2017 22:05 (GMT)
If it is true that the stove was not used on the last night, was this their only heat source? I've heard mention of kerosene lamps. Not sure if we are talking 1 or 2, can't imagine anymore. Probably the same problem with the stove. We don't know enough about them to know if they can be used more as a heat source than for illumination, of if our resourcefull hiker,( can't get enough of that word), had other methods of producing heat.
Loose-Cannon
07-08-2017 21:45 (GMT)
Where have you guys obtained the contents of the personal diaries?
Mike Smith
07-08-2017 21:36 (GMT)
Nigel. I keep coming my across the same problem and I don't know how to address it. We don't know enough about this stove: size, weight, construction, fuel consumption. I'll have to do some more digging. Maybe the other writter is right and the nuke'ified it. I'm Kidding, I think.
Nigel Evans
07-08-2017 21:32 (GMT)
@Loic - thanks for the first article i'll have a read. The second one has already discussed on this thread Yes it's all about microwaves imo although these DP lights and Hessdalen seem a little different from typical ball lightning. Not so much shell structures more a glow discharge from a point source and can last much longer.
Yes i like the electric universe case for the scarring of planets and moons. But as to the cause i prefer some unknown solar behaviour to their ideas, where else could this amount of energy come from?
Nigel Evans
07-08-2017 21:21 (GMT)
@Mike Smith - this is the last section in the diary (written by ID) :- "It's warm. It is hard to imagine such a comfort somewhere on the ridge, with a piercing wind, hundreds kilometers away from human settlements.". So he seems to be recognising that it will be harder up there.
They take the stove but camp near the summit but don't make a detour to pickup firewood from the forest just 800m away. It is all strange. I don't find it easy to explain this except that either they got lost or there was a last minute change of plan. From the last photos conditions were extreme, why not divert to the forest and camp there with a warm tent? Seems a fairly shallow climb for the following day...
Unless on the ascent they saw something and elected to photograph it perhaps? Is the camera on a homemade tripod an important clue?
Mike Smith
07-08-2017 20:49 (GMT)
Yuri Yudin's description of the verying degree of dress of typical hiker's positioned within a heated tent matches well with our 9 victims. But the stove had to have been used. If a stove wasn't used on a sub zero night, everyone should have been wearing everything they own. Even then, I would doubt they would have been very comfortable.
Can't explain why the stove appears to be stowed. The state of dress of the two Yuri's under the tree tells me it was used.
The theorical studies of human injuries by microwave and and a very few real-life cases lead maybe to an explanation for the strange orange tan color of the corpses of the group.
Mike Smith
07-08-2017 19:56 (GMT)
"... of course, it was too cold to sleep without a stove, at the time, sleeping bags were wadded, very inconvenient, and were usually ignored, never use during the hikes" Yuri Yudin
Later the on " it was comfortable inside with the stove lit up. And we undressed almost like at home well, of course the ones who slept furtherest from the center felt cold, they were more or less dressed and the ones who are closest to the stove... they felt really hot, and usually no one wanted to sleep next to it... people on duty had to keep the stove warm; they lay next to it. When they felt cold, it was time to add firewood." From Dyatov Pass Keeps its Secrets by Irina Lobatcheva
Loose-Cannon
07-08-2017 05:00 (GMT)
I find it odd that several of the victims had occupations working with radio active materials. Its also odd to me they received their degree at the same institute as the others studying 'radio engineering'. I would assume 'radio' could very well be the equivalent to the US term 'nuclear engineering'. Interesting to note Igores home-made stove and its possible heat source. Could someone have had access to neclear waste for Igor to make said heater? I remember reading somewhere that on of the diaries had an entry stating that they were all scared if this heater and nobody wanted to be the one wedged up next to it at night in the tent.... I think said heater may have malfunctioned forcing the group to evacuate the tent in a hasty manor and not exactly want to return to it. This could explain higher levels of radiation, trigger for in- fighting within the group, and the gov eagerness to cover up an embarrassing situation where loose protocols dealing with waste materials could cause global panic.
Mikey
07-08-2017 03:32 (GMT)
Let the flames against me begin. I don't mind. I'm no snowflake who cries at the drop of a hat.
I think Anna has ideas and I want to hear more of what she says. Maybe she has an idea that others here may enjoy listening to.
I'm open to that.
Mikey
07-08-2017 03:22 (GMT)
Hey all,
Give Anna some credit. I think she is on the right track. We ALL agree something happened at the tent to make them leave. We just don't know what. It's speculation. Something DID happen.
Of course what made them go almost a FULL mile to the cedar? With sleeping clothes? Come on, that is just stupidity. These hikers were not "run of the mill" screwballs, drunk, idiots.
EVERY one of them had been around the block. Even the gals had been shot and bit by a snake. And SURVIVED.
I, myself have been camping for years, since I was 5 years young and I bet each and every one of these people you would ask to help on a camping trip. No matter the weather. Each and every one would not only go with you but teach you things you never knew.
Each KNEW their shit and TEACH you what you needed to know.
Respects to Nigel, this WASN'T ball lightning. Sorry my friend, but you are grossly mistaken.
This was done by people who KNEW what they were doing. And the WHOLE party was taken by surprise, which I would be. Everyone here needs to notice something happened.
Not natural (as I thought at first), not ball lightning (which I considered), but a full fledged assault on innocent people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Mikey
07-08-2017 02:49 (GMT)
@Anna-
You may be right. The tent door, as described, as looking down the slope was to the RIGHT facing where the storage was. But sideways.
"When the group was chased out of their tent they went down the slope to forest, not to the storage site where they had left provisions before climbing Kholat Syakhl. 19 items (total weight of 55 kg) among them cereals, sugar, wood, Krivonischenko's mandolin, pair of skis used to mark the location, 2 pair of shoes (ski and warm), an ice pick, a cap, mask and a shirt. The shed seemed undisturbed."
This may be a clue, being that nobody was at the storage but the hikers.
They went down the hill for a reason. It wasn't ball lightning. Maybe they wanted to watch it. If they were there to see it, nobody mentioned it in their diary, which most would have.
The objective was to climb the mountain.
Sure, they may have encountered ball lightning, but I DO NOT believe this is why they went all the way down the slope. As I have said, if it were me in charge of the party, go down the slope a bit of the way until the danger passed, THEN get back to the tent. No reason to go to the storage nor the tree line about a mile away. If you and I were in such a predicament, no shoes, sleeping clothes etc., obvious choice.
Ball lightning did NOT force them out of the tent. I say this with grey areas as to Nigel. Respectively. Somebody went in there and slashed it to make it useless to those who came back. Maybe from inside. We may not know.
What we DO know is that the whole party went down the slope, at least a mile. That's a trek with no shoes. Nobody in their right mind would do that if it were something like ball lightning. Not me.
Anna, I think you are right. SOMEBODY forced them down the slope as far as they got to the cedar. Outside of some Yeti or aliens (we forgo that) the only OBVIOUS answer is that someone FORCED them down that slope.
And you are right, the tracks do tell that they WALKED down, not RAN down. That tells something as well. The investigation was quite botched, but in snow, even after three weeks, the investigators noticed that there were no drag marks, as if they were running.
Anna, you are on to something.
And I do not believe ball lightning followed everyone around and killed them. This was done in a way to MAKE it look natural (and I started with that theory) but THIS was not natural.
They were killed.
Nigel Evans
06-08-2017 20:12 (GMT)
mountain
Nigel Evans
06-08-2017 20:11 (GMT)
@Anna - what storage house? The labaz was at the previous camp and the tent was at the top of the miuntain
Anna Yordanova
06-08-2017 18:13 (GMT)
I am gonna repeat again what I said in my previous post.I think the killers were hidden in the storage house,ready or not for the hikers.They blocked the entrance of the tent and that`s why the group cut the tent open at the back trying to escape,They were stopped by armed people and that `s why they walked,not run as the footprints proved it.As one of the previous comments suggested someone probably wanted the people.I also find very bizarre that Yudin claimed that he is unwell,but went in search of geological samples.He is even on some of the photos.If I am unwell i wouldn`t be bothered to be photographed.Everything happened in the storage house.My opinion.
Nigel Evans
06-08-2017 10:27 (GMT)
@Mike Smith - wind slab can explain why they cut open the tent and got outside. But imo it doesn't explain why they didn't just pop back in and grab boots and outer clothing. It would be the obvious thing to do.
Are you aware of the hot spot and the theory that the snow was unusually warm, the temp raised closer to it's melt point?
Nigel Evans
06-08-2017 10:21 (GMT)
@Anna/@Loic/@Mikey They didn't go to the storage house because there was no clothing there to protect them from the cold. It just had 55kg of food, a mandolin and a spare pair of skis they improvised as a sled. Everything was in the tent and the plan was to monitor the tent from the cedar and return to it. It was a good plan except they didn't heed the mansi warnings about how dangerous these lights could be.
@Loic - interesting articles. I'm sure that science will one day explain why these lights phenomena are tied to localities and geology has to be a front runner. I liked the second electrophonic article but need to consider it's implications, there's a possible connection with these guys - https://www.thunderbolts.info
Loic
06-08-2017 07:36 (GMT)
@Anna It puzzles me also why they didn't try to get the storage house instead of going to the opposite direction. I think there were metallic items in the storage depot (canned food). For me, they understood rapidly that they must leave their tent because of the presence of lots of metallic items (stove, ski pole, etc) attracting this kind of electromagnetic glowing bowl. And if they were probably scared that if they went to the storage depot, these glowing balls would be attracted also by this place.
Mikey
05-08-2017 21:17 (GMT)
I do think that flailed chest, fractured ribs or broken ribs is not the real point. The real point is that some of these people were in a whole world of hurt. Just MOVING was painful. Enough to make people pass out from the pain. The tracks prove that they walked (or ran) down the hill of their own accord. Maybe Slobodon was carried or did walk down on his own, which either is a possibility.
@Mike-
Sorry, I didn't forget about you.
Tracks in Siberian winter will last a long time. Remember, it never gets above freezing. Compressed snow (underfoot) may ice up and last a good long while, while preserving the tracks. One month may not be out of the possibility.
Mikey
05-08-2017 21:07 (GMT)
@Nigel-
Even on this site it states the injuries as follows: Lyudia-ribs 2, 3, 4, 5 are broken on the right side, two fracture lines are visible ribs 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 are broken on the left side, two fracture massive hemorrhage in the heart's right atrium Semyon-flail chest, broken ribs 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 on the right side, two fracture lines
Copypasta from the "DEATH" section of this site.
@Anna-
Great to meet you. As to why they didn't go back to the storage area? I think there are many ideas on that. One of which is because they planned on returning to the tent when the coast was clear. Everything they needed was there. The storage was intended AFTER they scaled the mountain. The second is maybe an avalanche blocked their path? Third is what Nigel says, that ball lightning may have blocked their path. Fourth is that they were forced down the hill by an attacker.
I think they intended to go back to the tent. Igor, Zina and Slobodon were certainly trying to as to how and where they were found. They just didn't make it.
Conclusions are not easy to come to in this story. Read down to some recent comments and see if any scenario suits you or has a few ideas that you have. Finding airtight theorys will be hard to do.
Anna Yordanova
05-08-2017 20:30 (GMT)
In my opinion the key factor in this tragedy is the storage house situated south from the tent.Whatever or whoever scared them was hidden in this premises and that`s why they did not seek shelter there.
Mike Smith
05-08-2017 19:17 (GMT)
I agree with you that they had to be mobile to get down to the tree line. I think the Windslab explains what got them moving and why the tent was slashed. If the raised footprints are real, they prove that windslabs were present that night. When all the injuries occurred is still a mystery. Not sure I agree that all 9 had to be up and walking. I'm still not convinced that one couldn't have been carried. Sorry, I'm still getting my head around how how footprints are still discernible after 3 weeks and 3 days. Admittedly Siberian snow is a little different than snow I grew up with. I'm willing to accept it over someone faking raised footprints. Who would have thought of that?
Nigel Evans
05-08-2017 17:41 (GMT)
@Mikey - just to confirm, we're not talking about fractured ribs but flail chests (LD and SZ), a deformed (snapped?) neck (AK) and NTB's skull was so badly cracked that his head had lost symmetry. But no broken limbs or even a collar bone... The pathologist estimated that AK was dead immediately, LD died within minutes with SZ surviving longer and NTB probably lived for a couple of hours but remained unconcious. These people didn't walk anywhere after those injuries.
Mikey
05-08-2017 16:33 (GMT)
Hey Mike,
I unfortunately have to agree with Nigel in regards to the avalanche theory. First, we MAY be able to place Slobodon (Rustem) into your theory Mike. He was in BAD shape going down that hill. He had skull fractures on BOTH sides of the head and a large fracture toward the front of the skull. According to those who performed the autopsy and medical practitioners, those injuries may have taken some time to set in and incapacitate him. Up to 30 minutes in the cold weather as well. Did he make it to the cedar and from there trudge back to the tent? He was found facing the tent going up the hill at 480 meters from the cedar. Did he notice that his injuries were making him not function properly and decided to turn around back to the tent before reaching the cedar?
The real clue is what happened to the ravine four.
Lyuda was a strong gal, but not so strong as to make it down that hill with such broken ribs AND one rib puncturing her heart. I myself have had just BRUISED ribs and I will say, standing or laying in certain positions is a true test of pain management.
Also take in the fact that Semyon had fractured ribs as well. As well as being the oldest and may have sustained rib injuries while with his armed forces, His pain would be the same as Lyuda, but with less injuries.
Just taking those two into account, walking down that hill, getting to the cedar, then branching off to the ravine would take some superhuman aptitude.
If an avalanche had taken place and just the people I mentioned sustained those injuries during the avalanche, I would be hard pressed to believe they even made it to the cedar.
Your theory bodes well with one of the hikers that was in a different party and joined the rescue operation. He was well experienced as well, even helped Igor construct the tent and indeed mentioned this fact during the rescue operation.
The problem is that many of the rescuers and investigators qualified the fact that there was no evidence to support the avalanche theory.
Could it have happened? Sure thing. Almost anything is possible in this mystery.
@Mike Smith - just a guess but i think the Soviet military know what they're about wrt to snow and avalanches, then and now.
Nigel Evans
05-08-2017 15:27 (GMT)
@Mike Smith - well if the ravine 4 received those injuries at the tent you then have to explain how these dead and dying people got down the mountain (there's no way that they walked). Then you have to explain how the footprints got there, explain how the rav 4 were buried in 4 meters of snow etc etc. So imo it's a binary thing, avalanche theory = state coverup.
Mike Smith
05-08-2017 15:03 (GMT)
Nigel, you got me thinking. 1959 Avalanche Experts and 1959 knowledge of Avalanches. I have to see if I can come up with some info on what we know and more importantly when did we know it. When we are talking a windslab on a 16-30° degree slope, we are probably not conjuring up what most people would envision as an Avalanche.
Mike Smith
05-08-2017 14:21 (GMT)
Nigel I don't think I have to go too far on the coverup front. It's a problem we still have today flipping from a rescue operation to a recovery operation. Evidence that's important to the recovery operation is not a priority for the rescue operation. For the staff in charge it looks like mismanagement. I can see where the authorities of a totalitarian regime would want to put it to rest as soon as possible. I could definitely see N. Korea using this same approach today. After all, where did they learn it from?
Nigel Evans
05-08-2017 13:56 (GMT)
@Mike Smith - The investigation claims to have used alpine experts to determine that no avalanche took place so surely the avalanche theory also requires a state sponsored cover up theory? And then you're back to asking why?
Mike Smith
05-08-2017 12:36 (GMT)
As much as I hate to admit it, raised footprints are a thing. They either happen at high altitudes or in extreme weather, which we have both. Unfortunately that brings us back to an avalanche in the form of a windslab. In mountaineering raised footprints are a sign of an avalanche danger. I know 16-30 degree slope and they are near the summit, but I'm back to not being able to ignore it. I either accept the raised footprints are real an there was a windsplab present or I say the raised footprints are fake and all other options are open.
Nigel Evans
03-08-2017 08:34 (GMT)
@Mikey :-
They went to the forest to shelter from the wind and associated wind chill. Local people reported extremely high winds that night. A temperature of -25C with high winds produces an effective wind chill temp of say -60C.
There was snow everywhere, on the ground and on the trees. Snow would reflect the light of the fire. Suggesting that they placed the fire behind the cedar to hide it is foolish. If they were escaping armed men the sensible thing would be to keep going, disperse and nominate a rendevous (perhaps the base camp).
They didn't stop at the nearest part of the forest but walked nearly twice as far (in their socks) to reach the cedar in order to observe the tent area - http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-flashlight.jpg n.b. it has been established in previous posts that it is very probable that the moon hadn't risen yet and it was quite dark. So what they wanted to observe a mile back had to be illuminated in some way....
Svetlana Oss's book - "Don't go there" is an excellent piece of research with a similar conclusion to your author, which i don't agree with of course. I've also read "Dyatlov Pass Keeps it's Secrets" which is also excellent. I don't need to read a third book particularly if i already think the conclusion is nonsense.
The police investigator, Ivanov is on record as saying he thought the fireballs were connected to the deaths but was ordered to not include them in his report.
Mikey
03-08-2017 00:01 (GMT)
I understand Nigel, and your idea is warranted. The fire, according to the murders essay, the fire was built behind the cedar so as to not be so noticed by the attackers. It is well documented. Also, at first the radiated clothes in my estimation was because some of the party worked in nuclear facilities. This may not be the case. The author of the essay states that the clothes were to be distributed among the party to cover something up or to make some guilty of something.
The plan went awry where the WHOLE party had to be extinguished. The best way to make it look "natural" was to confront them at the tent, make them strip of warm clothes and send them down the hill.
This seems logical. If ball lightning were to strike the tent, most in the party would only go down the hill part of the way. If me, that would be considered a good idea until the danger passed.
Something made them walk the mile into the forest.
I implore you to read the essay with an open mind. You may not agree, but it is very thorough and also may give you new ideas to your theory. The authors investigation is VERY detailed.
Take care and have fun with it.
-Mikey
Nigel Evans
02-08-2017 08:09 (GMT)
@gz - my theory explains it from start to end.
@Mikey - as i said we'll have to agree to disagree. Any theory has to explain the facts and you don't light a fire in the dark if an armed gang want you dead. One theory for the radiation is that they visited disused mines on the trek and may have picked up some contamination from direct contact. No i haven't read his book, have you read this thread? Are you aware of these links i've posted before? :- http://www.ball-lightning.info https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_lightning
Mikey
02-08-2017 03:05 (GMT)
@ Nigel
Look, explanations are never perfect, you know as well as I do. Nothing is perfect here. We may never know. But, the radiation threw me for a quick moment. Obvious is obvious. I would have initially thought that because some of the party worked in a "radiated" area, it would be no problem. Normal. Some of their clothes would have traces of radiation. Sure. I really didn't think of it because some DID work in radiated areas. That was no big deal to me if I were to think of this as a "natural" problem. Hey, If you and I were to work in those areas, of course our clothes would be suspect.
But, only a FEW items were irradiated. This creates a strong possibility that certain items had radiation. I.E. if Luyda had radiation on JUST the sweater she was wearing, why not her whole clothes? Ball lightning may have incapacitated her but radiation on JUST her sweater? And we do know that sweater was given to her by someone else. No radiation was on a single bit of her other clothes. Not a single bit on her trousers, her hat, and no other clothing. Only the sweater which was not hers. And she accepted it to stay warm. She had no idea that it had radiated isotopes on it, but she wore it anyway, which each and every one of us would wear, even if we knew.
It wasn't a big deal. The radiation may have helped.
Alas, she died, not by radiation but serious wounds (as bad as some of the team, if not more) and not by ball lightning looking to kill everyone. Ball lightning is indiscriminate and would have dissipated quickly.
Maybe the ball lightning DID take out a few birds and burnt the tops of trees. I give you that. RARE, but could happen.
Nigel, you did mention that they were there to photograph the ball lightning, but no entries in diary comments prove that. If they, including myself if I were there, would have written it down that was what I was actually looking for. No mention of that. Ball lightning? I would, and you would be too, writing that down in my diary that was was what I was looking for.
It never came up.
As a result, I have to agree to disagree on your theory. I am sorry.
Have you read the thesis by A. I. Rakitin?
I did. I glomed over the politics of it a bit, but I will go over it again. I like closure. This is closure.
Nigel, you and I may not agree on what happened but it may be in your best interest to notice a different idea.
Don't hold to just one. Give yourself time. You may be surprised.
With that, I will let you go. A friend indeed who gave me an idea of what you said, but airtight? I think not. Read. Maybe you come to the same conclusion. Just be open.
Thank you Nigel. You opened my eyes more than you think.
gz
02-08-2017 02:37 (GMT)
There is no theory that explains the incident from the start to the end. At some point they all bump into something unexplainable, something that doesn't make sense and mostly it is the hikers' behaviour. I'm not a hiker or know anyone experienced at this, but to me the most weird part is the placement of the tent. Why on the mountain out in the open? The woods were so close. Don't they provide safer shelter from howling winds and possible avalanches? Why they left the tent poorly dressed and later started to remove the clothes from the dead to warm themselves? Why Y.K and Y.D died first from freezing and their comrades managed to live longer? Did they leave the tent earlier than the others? Not by a few seconds but minutes or an hour? Did Kolevatov kill Dubinina, Zolotaryov and Thibeaux as he is the only one to die from freezing in that group and others from major bone fractures? Seems like Dyatlov, Slobodin and Kolmogorova were in a fight aswell, but not among themselves since Slobodin's body is in the middle of the path wichever direction they were going, and is described as the most dressed. If it was one of the outer bodies we could presume they were fighting each other for clothing. Seems like hikers indeed were going crazy and not because of hypothermia as they clearly tried to warm themselves. And maybe it all started a few days earlier and something that night scared the shit out of them that they took so many irrational decisions. I'm either thinking USSR tried some chemical weapon and Kolevatov or Zolotaryov were supposed to record its effect on their groupmates or it was Mansi spiritual orb.
Nigel Evans
01-08-2017 20:02 (GMT)
@Mikey - looks like we'll have to agree to disagree
So they were forced out of the tent at gunpoint and forced to discard clothing/footwear but then allowed to disperse in the assumption that they would die of cold?
It's just rambling rubbish imo, sorry. The whole point of the lighting of the fire at the cedar is that it rules out any sentient threat. Also the flashlight left switched on part way down the path to the cedar is assumed to be a beacon to assist the return. Also they chose the cedar because it was the only place they could monitor the tent.
So they had to flee the tent in their socks, but expected to shortly return {before dawn, hence flashlight} but were unafraid to light a fire in the interim whilst they observed the tent waiting for this threat to go away.
You do not do those things if the threat is a group of armed men wishing you dead. The fire is the best piece of evidence to classify what the type of threat was.
It's fair comment that BL appearing at the tent and then exploding near the cedar is an ask. But then science doesn't know what BL is and what attracts or repels it. Human beings are electrical systems and their organs and blood are composed of metallic compounds (liver=copper, blood=iron}, the gases from a fire are a form of charged plasma that could have been blown towards the BL. We just don't know. And there's always pure coincidence of course.
I must say, it is a very compelling read. The translation to english is rough but the reader can infer what the writer is trying to convey.
At first, myself as a person based in reality, I leaned toward an obvious "natural" ideal on how to look at this mystery. How in the world can EVERY person in the party come to such a horrible demise? Maybe I am naive in the fact that how can innocent people could be harmed in such a violent way? Experienced people at that. So, I opted to trust how I felt instead of leaving my eyes open to a completely foreign idea that just plain escaped me.
Nigel, I looked at your hypothesis, which would be considered natural, but as leaning toward your idea, I was still in the middle of reading the above theory. (link above) Some things still didn't add up.
The three areas of real concern are 1) The tent, 2) The cedar and 3) The ravine. Each have very peculiar circumstances involved as to what was happening to the party. Each had to have something "controlled" to make things turn out the way they did. The ball lightning idea is not "controlled" and therefore must be respectfully ruled out because in each instance, I do not believe the ball lightning followed each group in a priority to kill them.
Also, my idea of no ball lightning but natural cause and effect did not add up either. If there was no outside force "controlling" these experienced campers, somebody, if not more, would have survived. The wounds on each could NOT have been completely natural, as I have suggested, minus ball lightning. Maybe a few situations could happen to experienced campers, but NOT all.
As looking, reading and determining an airtight theory as to what happened, I believe that the A. I. Rakitin hypothesis is the most airtight as I have found.
I admit, it goes COMPLETELY against how I feel about humanity. The death of Dyatlov and his team are beyond comprehension, there was not a single ounce of compassion toward these people. Especially the women. I find that dire. Of course, that's just me. I know in history there are cases like this, but I kinda refused to actually believe people could do this.
Read the above (link) at your leisure. As I explained, the translation is rough, but understandable. The A. I. Rakitin story so far is the BEST theory I have seen so far.
Everyone take gentle care. Comments or questions are forever accepted.
Nigel Evans
01-08-2017 16:20 (GMT)
@mb - i'm getting deja vu now, must be the microwaves.
From memory my previous answer was that if i was presented with this frame with no knowledge of the dpi i could agree with you. But i know that they cut slits in the tent and that there was a strong wind blowing snow along the ground and one camera was found inside the tent on a makeshift tripod to photograph something. So imo it's a bit of a coincidence that this random damage that you see should look very much like an extremely bright light source illuminating horizontal snow/graupnel photographed from inside a tent slit catching the curled canvas and weave at the bottom of the frame....
mb
01-08-2017 14:15 (GMT)
Just my opinion but youve got badly damaged film exposed to the elements and water for a long period of time with some frames that look very like overexposed film, i think you have a quacks like a duck situation. This reminds me a bit of seeing orbs in photos.
mb
01-08-2017 14:10 (GMT)
Hi Mikey, you're kinda proving my point. USSR was significantly more than 'kind a police state'. It was similar to how North Korea is now. High status people were disappeared as often as nobodies, probably more so. For instance, Stalin purged hundreds of thousands of influential intellectuals, army generals, and politicians in the 30s. And Dyatlov happened at the height of Cold War paranoia. I would argue the Soviets creating a massive coverup/misdirection in order to liquidate a few students instead of just executing them out of hand is more outlandish than the yeti theory.
Nigel Evans
01-08-2017 08:09 (GMT)
If you consider the investment made into the investigation, it is very unlikely this could be a state sponsored murder. It all points to the state genuinely investigating it. But not for justice et al, but to account for the bodies to ensure no defection.
Mikey
31-07-2017 22:43 (GMT)
@mb-
Yes, the Soviet Union back then was a bit of a police state, bribes were the norm and killing off detractors without pity definitely happened.
If indeed it was the "higher-ups" who pulled this off, these hikers were pretty well-to-do. Many were in school and worked at nuclear sites as well. One has a father that was pretty high up in the Soviet establishment.
I agree that in those days, just pulling a gun and capping people did happen. This operation (if it so took place) would have to be masked as to make it look as if it were an accident so as not to raise the peoples' suspicions.
The pic that Nigel pointed to, with the three heads, yeah, it could be over exposed film but if it is a true pic of something, that something is brighter than a conventional flashlight. You can see the saturation in it.
Nigel Evans
31-07-2017 21:03 (GMT)
@mb - hi there.
1. I'm not sure you've fully considered the meaning of your photo, yes it's clear it's over exposed but it's clear what is was meant to be.... 2.Now what could have been the cause of the over exposed three heads photo (i.e. assuming your point)? Because there aren't many lights that bright on the top of a siberian mountain... Unless ....
Just to reiterate- a lot of the younger generations dont seem to understand how things were in the Soviet Union, especially in that period. If the government wanted these people dead, they would have just shot them out of hand. It happened all the time. There would be no need to hide the killings. If the KGB even had suspicions, or if you crossed the wrong politician of chekist, your life wasnt worth a nickel.
Yes, the stove was not hooked up but as you can see, in your scenario, it is very hard to determine exactly what happened. Even coming barely close to an airtight theroy is difficult. Why rip the tent? Agreed, really stupid move if the bright idea was to saunter down the hill and start a bonfire. Also remember that from the tent to the cedar was about a mile. That's a hike maybe in bad weather and cold, some not fully dressed for the elements.
@Nigel- The dead birds and the tree tops singed (burnt) does give me pause. You are right. Nothing is of the ordinary here. Conventional wisdom tells us there is a true explanation but so far, it's hard to nail things down so that everything fits perfectly.
Nigel Evans
31-07-2017 15:01 (GMT)
@Mikey - also, don't forget the dead birds found nearby in the forest and the eye witness account of the other ski party (saw light then heard two explosions).
Nigel Evans
31-07-2017 14:56 (GMT)
@Mikey - "It can be considered very rare."
Well whatever happened that night is very definately in the very rare domain... There's nothing ordinary about the DPI.
I really like the following scenario for the ravine 4 :-
They're all in the den sat on their seats placed as if on the four corners of a square. NTB has his jacket unzipped and his gloves in his pocket (this is how he was found), this is because the den is warm...
Now rotate the square into a diamond so that each corner is at the cardinal point of the compass - North at the top, South at the bottom and East and West are at the same "latitude".
Now put AK at North, NTB at South and LD and SZ at East and West.
Now there's an explosion from the South that pushes the southern corner of the den towards the North. Everyone falls off their seat except AK who hits his head hard against the North corner. LD and SZ lie at the same "latitude" with their chests between the East/West latitude and the North one. Because NTB has fallen from the South position he is further down so that his head lies between the chests of LD and SZ. Now the explosion has weakened the den roof and (say) 2 tonnes of snow/ice (possibly thermally compacted) falls down on top of them with the main force between the two "latitudes" stated above. This crushes 2 chests and one skull but no limbs. Before this drop AK has bounced off the corner and the fall drives his head into his knee snapping his neck.
N.B. an explosion would explain how YK fell out of the cedar and lay unconcious and unattended for long enough to burn his leg. Maybe YD was up there as well.
Saturnalia
31-07-2017 14:46 (GMT)
My opinion of most likely events: "Group was sleeping in the tent in the very early morning around 1 a.m. or 2 a.m. and everybody was miserably cold. Someone had a bright idea, let’s head down to the tree line and start a big fire."
There might be some truth in this in my opinion. Hypothermia makes you undress, but some individuals might also panic. It depends of the individual. When you realize you are dying it can make you freak out. This was the first night without stove on, if i understand correctly. They went into light hypothermia, and some of them started to panic or get aggressive. Yelling and punching, perhaps. They could not light up the stove because there was no firewood around.
This was their biggest mistake, not collecting firewood before the dark. Some members were propably quite comfortable still and wanted to continue sleeping, but some others, at least one member, went into hypothermia and started to behave aggressively demanding that they should walk down to collect firewood. Of course this theory has holes in it too. Why cut the tent? Totally stupid move. At least one of them must have been pretty out of control to do that. Like he wanted rest of them to die, cutting the tent in anger.
Another one is of course why not to dress up fully for the trip down? It's just crazy move. It's hard to think that they did this because their hypothermia was so far developed. It's not impossible though. Main question remains: this was their first night without stove on, and without collecting firewood for it. Why? God damn, why? Experienced hikers. Preparing to sleep in subzero conditions without heat and if i understand, without proper modern sleeping bags. It just buzzles me.
They possibly thought they can handle it well enough. Most of them possibly did, but somebody of the did not. In the army it never was that the whole tent was complaining about the cold, it was usually one individual. Others were coping with it just about.
Mikey
30-07-2017 20:27 (GMT)
The ravine/den boggles my mind. The two at the cedar dying of hypothermia and the three trying to get back to the tent are completely explainable, if you think about natural causes. A fire at -17C (1.4F) would give you hard luck to warm yourself. It's virtually impossible with cold wind, snow, frozen ground etc...
The ravine/den is a different can of worms.
(1)Ball lightning is a possibility but with all due respect to Nigel, it can be considered very rare to incapacitate four people other than exploding. It can be considered very rare.
(2)All four fell into the ravine/den at certain close intervals (snow giving way) and fell on top of each other. All were pretty much incapacitated and as we know, they were carrying firewood at the time, which may explain the building of the floor, but who was well enough to do that? Maybe the floor was built first and they went out to collect more wood and fell in afterward?
(3) Somebody else was there with combat training and knew how to take them all out quickly? Lyudmila missing tongue (maybe bit off during fall) may have been so outspoken that the attacker decided to chop her tongue to shut her up?
If I am missing something, please add to it.
But, with those three possibilities, I would opt for the more natural that they all fell in on top of each other and gained a whole world of hurt all the way around.
This of course is not to take away from Nigel's theroy, but the ball lightning is not only possible, but a rare occurrence.
In a group, in the dark, carrying firewood and not sure of footfalls, one falls in, the next falls, foot lands on someone's head, cracks skull with ball of foot, the next falls face forward on top and breaks ribs and the next falls sideways onto the rest and breaks ribs on one side. Not in that order of course.
Something to contemplate if you were to look at a natural way.
Sure, we can throw the Yeti and/or UFO's into the mix but I sure don't wish to go that route. All three are plausible and would NOT discount them.
Again, if I am missing another idea, please share. I'm open to all opinions.
Nigel Evans
30-07-2017 07:52 (GMT)
@Mike Smith - the stove wasn't used that night, they didn't carry firewood with them, just the axes to collect it locally. Imo it was a deliberate choice to camp higher than the treeline, the reason being to photograph the lights close up. @Mike Smith/@TP - the question isn't why weren't the footprints covered in snowfall (very windy) but how did these prints survive the wind for over three weeks? There are clues that the snow was warmer that night and closer to it's melt point. This would create a much firmer footprint that when it refroze could survive for that period. Clues are :- 1. Hot spot. 2. Most of the group suffered very little or no frostbite. How come in -25C with a wind chill at say -60C? 3. The best explanation i have for the ravine deaths is that the den collapsed on top of them. This theory involves the snow softening with heat which would greatly increase it's weight and reduce it's structural integrity. Cause of the warming = the cause of the ball lightning = microwaves.
Also regarding the "murder theory", LD, SZ and NTB were killed by a force of super human strength. LD and SZ's fractures apparently would need a fall of 60 feet. But neither suffered any other fractures or bruising. It would be quite improbable for one person to exhibit this profile, for two to do so rules out falling imo. They were crushed imo.
TP
30-07-2017 01:11 (GMT)
Hi Guys, I too am very dubious regarding the footprints. It is entirely logical that after, even a few days, these would be covered.
The initial investigation at the sight gives us some idea but how can we interpret those initial findings? How accurate were they? I think they add to the problem of this mystery.
Mike Smith
29-07-2017 22:26 (GMT)
Sorry I haven't made my way through all of the comments yet. The incident happened on the night of Feb 1. Near as I can tell the footprints started being found on Feb 25th? That's 24 days later: 3 weeks and 3 days. Am I the only one that find this a bit odd. I would have thought with all the talk of bad weather, these footprints would have been obliterated in a 3rd of that time.
Mike Smith msmith63@gmail.com
29-07-2017 20:22 (GMT)
Glad I found your website. I more of a fan of the down to earth theories than those of the fantastic. The two that stick out in my head is 1) something went wrong with the stove. What I've read the normal egress through the tent flap was a rather convoluted and involved process with lots of fasteners and an overlaying sheet. 2) a fight or argument within the group got rather heated and one of the contenders decided he/she needs a bit of fresh air. Anyone that witnessed a heated argument can contest that rationality is the 1st to depart.
Nigel Evans
29-07-2017 11:46 (GMT)
@Mikey - glad you like it but SZ being a KGB minder doesn't clash with the BL theory. They were sent there to photograph the lights without realising these things are dangerous and can kill.
James
29-07-2017 04:24 (GMT)
Robs comments are crap. Skip his comments if you are starting from the bottom of the page and reading up. He keeps asking for an answer to the same question when he was provided with a decent answer. It will save you some time
Rick
29-07-2017 01:16 (GMT)
@Mikey... I am not a world history buff. I do not know much of my Canadian history let alone the rest of the world. Unfortunately, I have read the tent is long gone. We have no idea if it was truly slashed from inside. From the remaining final photos of them digging in for the tent, it was very terrible weather. I don't see anyone wishing to attack in those conditions. (Peace time as well, no war). Running or walking to the trees without full attire is mind boggling. Obviously, they feared something. (Getting dressed in pitch black is not easy either.) I heard the ravine was about a 24 foot fall? Hitting rocks from that height would surely cause serious injuries.
Mikey
28-07-2017 23:25 (GMT)
Above all, I so enjoy an open forum. This way we can bounce many ideas off each other. Very nice.
Mikey
28-07-2017 23:17 (GMT)
@Nigel
I never thought of that concept! Just saw your post and it is very interesting. Sasha being used to PROTECT the team and ultimately failed. That is different from the ball lightning idea. I like the way you think!
Mikey
28-07-2017 23:12 (GMT)
Now, to everyone, I'm not saying that politics had ANYTHING to do with this. These "kids" although very adroit at "vacations" have political ideals, as we ALL do. Here in the Americas, we do have open dialog these days. We do have problems with those who go off the reservation as well. Also remember, back in 1959 and such years, things were very contentious. We in America had McCarthyism and the Soviets had Perestroika. Not the same, but still a persecution ideal.
I don't believe this is political, BUT it would match the fact that no items were stolen, no monies stolen, only lives. This could include the military. The thing is that someone would have yapped about it. Ben Franklin once said that three people can keep a secret as long as two are dead.
Nothing has come out of anything like that.
This team had been around the block. If you were to go hiking or camping, and you were a novice, you would ask ANY of them to go along and teach you what they know. Young and impressionable? YES. but they KNEW what they were doing.
Political? Inside job? Maybe, but I doubt it. Nobody pulls this off without somebody yapping about it. Sure, the Soviets were VERY secretive but after years and years, somebody should have come forward.
My compliments to both Nigel and Rick. Very good ideas, but I am not sure. I enjoy a good mystery and this is good. Not to take away from the plight of those who met their demise, which is a horrible outcome, but to offer new ideas as to what may have happened.
Thank you all for allowing me to post. I enjoy this forum.
Nigel Evans
28-07-2017 23:08 (GMT)
@Rick - i think it's generally accepted that Zolatarev was a KGB minder assigned to the party by the Soviet hierarchy who declined permission to travel for one of the original university group in order to fit him in. If so his mission was to protect them and ensure their safe return and possibly..... to photograph the DPI lights with an extra camera carried especially for this purpose.
Mikey
28-07-2017 22:42 (GMT)
@Rick-
I was thinking about the "Sasha" Zolatarev inside job idea. He was certainly political. He survived the Great Patriotic War, which was no small feat. Politics in the former Soviet bloc were crazy back then. Many different factions and different ideas. They still are to this day. Communism v/s socialism v/s fascism still run true in Russia. Back then, in 1959, the cold war with the U.S., many military were indoctrinated into different facets of socialism/communism. Many people came out of that with vile hatred toward freedom and individualism. Everybody had to be the same in many brainwashed eyes.
Wether "Sasha" Zolatarev was an "infiltrator" and joined the group to kill over politics may remain to be seen. He was killed rather harshly as well in the ravine. Ribs broken as Lyudmila Dubinina was as well.
Lyudmila enjoyed the company of older people and hung out with them much more often.
"Sasha" Zolatarev is dead, almost the same as she died. Whatever political (and if anything it would be political or military being no valuables were taken) differences, I don't think Sasha Zolatarev would pull something like this.
Agreed, he is a trained killer, but not like that. Plus, he is dead, and done in in an awful way.
Something else happened in that ravine.
Great call Rick, I thought about it as well. With all our ideals, maybe we can figure out an airtight solution to what happened.
Take care my friend.
Rick
28-07-2017 20:56 (GMT)
MAYBE. "Sasha" Zolatarev was sent in to murder. Possibly these young people were future "problems" for the USSR. and they had to be eliminated. Has anyone given the Zolatarev family the 3rd degree? So many un-answered questions. It is unusual Zolatarev would be interested in being chummy with University students. With 2 of the young people with broken knuckles, it is possible the were fighting for their lives. With no evidence of knife wounds to anyone. Zolatatev could easily knife anyone in a closed in tent....the more one thinks of this case, the more it baffles
Mikey
28-07-2017 16:33 (GMT)
Hi Nigel, so very nice to meet you. I have not thrown out the idea of ball lightning. It is very, very plausible. Matter of fact, as an experienced camper up and down the east coast and here in Florida, I have encountered many different things at night. I'm sure you probably have too. Wild hogs, deer, stray dogs, even the occasional lost camper in the middle of the night can make your hair stand on end. Those things are almost normal though. Encountering an actual squatch would be a different story. As for ball lightning coming close or even entering the tent would make me go bonkers! Apparently it is quite rare that something like that would happen. Metal items in a tent or even a metal based tent sealer (back then it is not out of the question) could very well attract such phenomenon. This, you are correct.
Yes, it has been said that ball lightning is very well known in that area. The Mansi have it in their lore. I am more inclined to lean toward your theroy than most others. That would terrify me! A Yeti would too, but that is HIGHLY improbable.
Something did happen though. I don't know if they RAN down the hill or WALKED. Some reports say that they walked almost single-file, straying a little, but wound up at the cedar tree. Unfortunately the investigation was not completely conclusive in that matter. Wind swept snow could cover many traces as to whether they were dragging feet, jumping, meticulous and such with their footfalls. Any ideas on that Nigel? It could prove very important.
Thanks for your answer, and as to posting here, I agree, let us all be considerate. No reason to be angry because we all have opinions and each one have merit because NOBODY really knows EXACTLY what happened unless someone here comes up with an airtight theroy. With this mystery, it is very hard to do. Take care.
Nigel Evans
28-07-2017 09:43 (GMT)
@KP - thanks for the support, "it took me all night" - looks like you've been hooked by the DPI, join the club! . As you say lets keep it polite, we'll never know for certain what killed them, although i believe science will in the future have an explanation for these lights which will either support my theory or otherwise. Investigations at Hessdalen look promising.
@Mikey - imo they intentionally went to the cedar in order to observe the tent to return when the threat had gone. The base camp was around the mountain and didn't have any clothing or boots, it was mainly a food store (55kg) for the return journey. Everything they needed to survive the cold was in the tent. It all fits with the photos attributed to SZ showing the light moving across the sky. Imo the three heads photo is it coming to rest outside of the tent. So it was a reasonable assumption for them that it would soon be on it's way. However the metal objects in the tent perhaps acted as attractions and it didn't move requiring them to extend their stay at the cedar and build a fire and then a den.
Mikey
28-07-2017 01:45 (GMT)
I will say this, if I may... I think the avalanche theory is out the window. These hikers/skiers were very talented in this type of excursion. Even the gals survived a gunshot and a snakebite doing things like this. I have no reason to believe the guys didn't know what they were doing either. Very skilled team. They wouldn't scare very easily. They encountered something of sheer terror to make them cut up their only tent and leave so quickly, wearing no shoes or hardly any warm outer clothing. Something REALLY bad happened in the camp area. Their storage was off to the right (if looking downhill) a number of meters away, but they opted for down the hill in a different direction.
That said, I think they ALL made it down safely to the cedar tree in good condition, although very cold with all the bumps, bruises, scrapes and wounds that go along with a normal hiking trip. We ALL get the normal bumps, scrapes and bruises when we go camping. It happens. Fish hook in the eyeball and whatnot...lol... BUT I do think they made it to the cedar tree pretty safely. Even started a fire using wet wood, enough to burn themselves a bit.
Whatever the case may be as to WHY they left the security of the tent and did NOT go toward the salvation of their storage will probably be constant speculation. Whatever terror they encountered, I don't think it hurt them physically in any way.
I think I will start my hypothesis at the cedar tree...
In his/her synopsis and investigation it is gratifying to actually read about the investigation, the actual autopsies, and other things that are reported incorrectly on this matter. It was quite well done. Thanks for allowing me to post and I hope to join the conversation soon.
KP
28-07-2017 00:05 (GMT)
Nigel,
It took me all night but I read through every single comment posted here. Your theory is the only theory I've read that makes sense on all account. I've enjoyed reading what you have to say and even when you were attacked by someone who clearly had different, strong opinions you remained polite and respectful. This is such an interesting and sad story. Thank you for sharing your theory and thoughts.
KP
27-07-2017 23:58 (GMT)
@ tp
The foot prints tell a different story. A) there would have been some form of evident that he had followed the group back. B) the footbrints to the cedar indicate that they walked in an orderly fashion--not that the ran fleeing for their lives.
If I was trying to escape someone who was trying to murder me I would not go start a fire to show them where I am located.
Nigel Evans
27-07-2017 09:43 (GMT)
@TP - he would have to achieve all of that without leaving any footprints...
TP
26-07-2017 23:41 (GMT)
Has anyone substantiated the claims of Yuri Yudin? Did he actually leave the others and did he return to where he said he was going? My theory is this- and much more simple than any ''paranormal activity'' or strange phenomena. Yuri Yudin was obsessed with one of the women. He may have very well wanted to leave the group but came back and followed them. First, without them knowing he was there, he tormented them and scared them. I believe forensics were incorrect regarding the cuts to the tent. I believe this was done from the outside. The killer would have been in a rage. The hikers fled in a massive panic. The brutality done to Lyudmila Dubinina was an act of a spurned would be lover. He took out the worst atrocities on her. The others were killed in a homicidal rage. The bruising to the skin and slightly deeper layers did not show due to the freezing snow and low temps. Two of the men had been exposed to radiation before and explains any read outs. The truth is much more simple. This was an act of murder.
Nigel Evans
25-07-2017 10:47 (GMT)
@Rick - the problem with the fight theory is that it doesn't fit with the evidence :-
1. why leave the tent without footwear/outer clothing? 2. why abandon the tent at all in favour of the forest but climb a tree to observe the tent and leave a flashlight turned on part way on the journey presumably to assist a return? 3. injury profile requires superhuman strength, pathologist says like in a car accident or bomb shockwave.
Rick
25-07-2017 01:41 (GMT)
Been looking into this since 2103. Yes the Russian authorities were very closed in info. I believe it was a fight of some sort between the guys. Irritability. Tired. Short tempered. I have been in Temperatures of -25. I am Canadian. Our Northern winters are similar. It is no picnic when you have wet cold feet and hands. These "kids" were still young however educated they were. They were still somewhat immature. And possibly a moment of temper(s) Cost them their lives. An intriguing mystery to say the least!!
Nigel Evans
14-07-2017 11:05 (GMT)
@Carol - if you're interested, Svetlana Oss has translated the pathologist's reports and you can get them from amazon. I can't see any mention of X-rayed limbs. But the examinations of the skull and the chest/abdomen seems thorough enough and any gross deformity of the limbs would be obvious? So we're still left with a strong force that can snap multiple ribs on multiple fracture lines but not appear to affect the arms or collar bones?
Carol
13-07-2017 16:50 (GMT)
A few more comments on the injuries. Multiple rib fractures are very frequently NOT associated with bruises or external signs even in the presence of blunt trauma. Lung problems but not rib fractures are associated with blasts. The skull fracture in the den was associated with contact with a blunt object e.g. rock or tree limb but not necessarily used as a weapon - contact could had been accidental. Without further information, I think Ludmilla's tongue was post mortem. During blunt trauma people sometimes sustain a tongue laceration from biting and this may have lead to earlier decomposition. I don't think the medical examiner X-rayed their extremities. In some cases an injury from a fall creates fractures without real gross deformity unless you are looking for them. The same is true for lumbar compression fractures. Also I can't tell how deep the knuckle scuffs were on the people who had them.
Joel Moma
10-07-2017 15:45 (GMT)
Didn't y'all see the Devils Pass movie. It's all explained, lol. (Actually is a pretty interesting movie, follows the facts up until........)
Stevie
09-07-2017 05:53 (GMT)
Could the missing flesh be attributed to scavaging animals? And is it possible that in hypothermia delirium that someone was so confused that they attacked and killed the others?
Stevie
09-07-2017 05:51 (GMT)
All I can think is a bear or a yeti. Could the clothes have been hanging from a branch in an attempt to dry them out? Was there any reports of a snow storm that may have prevented them from finding their original shelter?
Nigel Evans
06-07-2017 12:51 (GMT)
@Jeff - thanks for clarifiying. The problem with the snow slide theory is that the force required to create the ravine injuries would surely have resulted in other fractures, but none exist. No broken arms or legs, not even a broken collar bone. The force was both strong and very targeted. Barotrauma can perhaps explain the profile with no bruising but that is always attended with burst lungs/ear drums which are not found here. A crushing force through a layer of snow (small collapse followed by a big collapse) could explain the lack of bruising and the targeting nature.
jeff
05-07-2017 18:31 (GMT)
My apologies for mixing in what I thought was a real investigation and was just tv drama. ALSO I would like to make a substitution of SnowSlide in place of avalanche
Nigel Evans
02-07-2017 07:03 (GMT)
@Dynalee10 - in general the bodies had abrasions and bruises but three of the ravine dead - LD, SZ, NTB did not have any bruising to explain their extensive fractures.
Dynalee10
01-07-2017 19:40 (GMT)
I keep reading that they claimed no external injuries on most of the hikers then the autopsy lists all kinds of external injuries . I find it very inconsistent .
Nigel Evans
01-07-2017 13:43 (GMT)
Surfing around for a possible cause of these large scale microwave fields i've found this - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossed-field_amplifier The idea seems to have legs, the wind+snow creates free electrons (like with lightning and thundersnow) and circulates them in vortexes as it passes over the undulating terrain. Then all you seem to need is a magnetic field and you're amplifying background radiation perhaps? Wrt the mag field i remember reading that in the cold war the Soviets tried to build a radar complex in this region but had to abandon it due interference with local magnetic fields presumably from metallic ore deposits. Hessdalen is an ore rich region...
Nigel Evans
01-07-2017 11:32 (GMT)
@jeff - i don't understand the Mike Libecki point?
jeff
30-06-2017 21:32 (GMT)
so I boil this down to maybe a slight lean towards an infra sound event causing disorientation and maybe a small avalanche. What I wanted to say is I watch Mike Libecki go to the snow cave, NO trap cameras, NO FLIR, NO drones, so, at that point all of his investigation I was only along just for the drama, no actual evidence.
Nigel Evans
30-06-2017 19:23 (GMT)
@mb - from my googling of microwave burns the pain develops slowly. This would explain how YK got down the slope before the pain was making him bite the backs of his hands off (in my theory).
mb
30-06-2017 19:16 (GMT)
Microwave radiation in this context you would expect damage to all areas of exposed skin, and hence you would expect the victims to be desperate to cover their faces especially. I dont know that there is evidence of that. I'll leave it to the medical expert, but I would expect to see things like blistering rather than bruising, as its literally a burn caused by the water in the tissue being super heated. And the physics of microwave radiation cause radically different affect depending on the frequency. Frequencies that would damage organs might have no effect on the skin at all, and vice versa.
Nigel Evans
30-06-2017 09:56 (GMT)
@Carol - hi, i definately would be interested in hearing more from someone such as yourself with a lifetimes experience in trauma injuries. Todate the discussion has been limited by everyone is a medical layman, so we can only ask the questions but not supply the answers.
But to answer your post, you refer to Rustem several times but the more interesting cases surely are LD, SZ and NTB. N.B. NTB's injuries were more severe than given on this website, the base of the skull was also cracked right across. But for all three the big anomaly has to be that they don't display any bruising to explain the fractures?
My favourite theory is that the whole mountain was witihn a microwave field and that the bruising on the face and hands is consistent with radiation burns. There's empirical evidence in other cases that this burning is also connected with ball lightning, which i presume to be an effect of the microwave field.
I think it's generally accepted that ID died of hypothermia (bladder had 1 litre of urine) but he may be the only one?
Carol
29-06-2017 17:20 (GMT)
Really like this website. Very informative. I have worked with trauma patients of all kinds for about 40 years (its my job). I have some thoughts on the patterns of trauma seen in these individuals.
First of all explosion: There are three major mechanisms for explosive trauma to humans. Overpressure: this high pressure wave extends outward from the primary area. As a rule if one person in an area dies from this type of trauma, the others are at equal risk. A tent would not provide protection. Typical of over pressure injuries are blast lung (bloody pulmonary edema, perforated bowel. Cerebral edema but no skull fractures. Perforated eardrums. Usually a pressure wave in air causes lung and brain trauma, while one in water causes bowel injuries. Shrapnel causes penetrating injuries not really seen here. Injuries from being thrown. Can cause blunt trauma seen here, but the blunt injuries of Rustem and the lower four individuals did not occur at the same time. (I agree that their injuries would have significantly impaired mobility. A very powerful blast may create a "wind" effect which tends to dismember by tearing off legs etc.
Next hypothermia: As hypothermia progresses two behavioral changes occur which might have affected some of the findings. First: paradoxical undressing-in the last stages of activity during severe hypothermia, the patient begins to feel warm and sometimes attempts to remove his clothes. I wonder if this occurred with dyatlov. It might also explain the position of his arms if he was trying to unbutton things. Also confusion sets in. Even experienced decision makers are unable to think logically. I would expect that at least some of the actions to be illogical and disorganized. Skull fractures: to me it looks like two very specific mechanisms. Rustem would have impacted a flat or irregular surface, while the injury lower down the slope is compatible with a very localized blow or Impact Fight injuries The knuckle injuries on Dyatlov and Rustem are compatible with a fight as well as the superficial facial injuries on Rustem. If Rustem's injuries were from being rolled around or some other thing, i wound expect cuts and bruises on all sides of the head as well as on other body parts. Hope this is interesting.
Nigel Evans
28-06-2017 13:16 (GMT)
@Jack - it's worth adding that the dead birds fit an explosion theory which could be the cause of the collapse or indeed punched part of the snowbank in. The explosion theory could help explain another curiousity - that each of the ravine four and possibly RS as well only receive one serious injury. So the force has to be both strong enough to crush bone but limited to a specific area and quite weak outside of it. The ravine injuries are fascinating, no bruising over the fractures and in each case only one part of the body receives a crushing force. It's my guess that the den would insulate them from the normal consequences of an explosion - e.g. burst lungs/eardrums.
Jack
27-06-2017 18:24 (GMT)
@Nigel Thanks, I now have a better understanding of the den. If the den collapsed, that would have sucked big time.
I was just wondering if I could get some clarification on the den and what it was. Also, This mystery is very creepy, I wish there were more pictures of the den since zolotaryov had a camera after the fleeing of the tent.
Frank
26-06-2017 01:21 (GMT)
That is Creepy!!!!!!!
Nigel Evans
11-06-2017 00:27 (GMT)
@Loic - thanks for the link. The author has a similar theory to myself. Although I would favour microwaves over higher energies.
Congrats for the authors of this very informative website about this tragedy ! I've discovered this case 2 years ago while watching the Discovery TV "documentary" about the russian Yeti...
I've read lot a stuff about this mystery and for me the most convincing theory is a king of lightning ball.
Probably the geology of the area generate magnetic anomalies, coupling with the particular shape of the mountain creating vortex winds, made the perfect conditions to create reccurent lightning bowls.
They were probably awaken by a massive orange glowing orb next the tent. They cut the tent to see it, try to photograph (tripod) but understand rapidly that is was a kind of electrical phenomena. They leave in a hurry the tent regarding the presence of the metallic Stove.
During their run, maybe they were (nearly?) hit by this lightning ball and have to left the metallic flaslight.
They wait under the Cedar. They climb the tree to watch the glowing ball still standind near the tent, too long to recover themself from hypothermia. 4 tried to make a den but they were to injured to survive. At last, this electrical phenomena disapeared and the 3 survivors try to reach the tent but they were too exhausted...
A uncompelling natural force...
MB
08-06-2017 13:41 (GMT)
Doesnt explain why they cut their way out of the tent from the inside.
SCHAFFAAAA
07-06-2017 22:52 (GMT)
My opinion of most likely events: Group was sleeping in the tent in the very early morning around 1 a.m. or 2 a.m. and everybody was miserably cold. Someone had a bright idea, let’s head down to the tree line and start a big fire. Everyone was in agreement. Being overconfident, they didn’t dress very warm but just wanted to get moving and maybe the temperature was not so bad outside ~5 degrees F, not wanting to try to get properly dressed in the darkness with just a flashlight or 2 with 9 people in a small tent they said screw it, I am going how I am, get down fast and make a nice hot fire and I am going to cut my way out, the tent needs sewing anyways (maybe the fireplace was in the way of the entrance?). They made it down to the tree line and making a fire was not as easy as everyone thought. The wind started to really pick-up and the temperature dropped. Some guys climbed the tree trying to get some dry firewood and ended up getting cold and no able to get back down and eventually fell. The group split some tried to make it back to the fire and some tried to get down lower to build a shelter. The ones who tried to make a shelter either fell down the ravine or a big portion of the ravine caved in a brought a heavy massive amounts of snow on them.
Lightning
07-06-2017 16:21 (GMT)
Hessdalen lights have never exploded or left any burn marks. That means they are not electrically charged and are so called cold plasma (plasma thats near room temperature, little amount of atoms ionized). But it can glow as much bright as thermal plasma.
@mkk - the photos do display water damage on top of an exposed image as i would expect. Eagle has water damage, whatever chicken was has been obliterared by water damage. I cannot see any water damage on three heads. That's the original exposure imo.
@Saturnalia - there's nothing supernatural about ball lightning, it's a rare natural phenomena that has attracted theories from very eminent physicists. For conventional BL there seem to be two types, 1. glowing shells typically produced from lightning strikes that hover close to the ground and don't last long, say 90 seconds. 2 - lights in the sky that last for several hours, these lights are larger (hessdalen - "as big as a barn" and are diffuse glowing objects. The dp lights seem to be of the second type.
Saturnalia
02-06-2017 07:37 (GMT)
Nothing supernatural happened. That's the way i see this case. Somebody flipped out inside the tent and slashed it open. Propably some kind of panic attack, some people have those. That tent was quite hell to be inside. It was claustrofobic, loud and cold inside. Wind banged it like sail. I dunno how well that particular canvas breathed. If not well, then nine people inside that small tent is gonna cause some carbon dioxide problems. People have suffocated inside their tents while sleeping. That mountainside was crazy place to put your tent on, they must have had some spesific reason to do so. Ravine lower down would have been much better choice. Firewood, stream, much less wind, level ground, out of sight, etc. They did not care that it was gonna get bit extreme, high self-confidence. They propably did not use the stove because there was no firewood anywhere close. After the tent was slashed, it was all downhill from there, their rationality suffered somehow. Leaving the boots behind is mad, that is the part i just can not understand. It was crazy move, but they did it. Somehow there was no going back to tent. Ball lightnings etc last only a moment. This threat lasted long time. Was it so dark they could not find the tent anymore? Does not sound convincing. On the other hand, snow storm at night...you don"t really see much, moonlight is not there. I try to think this without supernatural explanation. Somebody had a panic attack inside the tent, they had a small fight, etc.
Thomas Whiteside
02-06-2017 03:05 (GMT)
@mkk totally agree it'd be much better so have access to the uncropped damaged photos.
I'm not expert on water damaged film either, but my reading suggests black and white film will be damaged in a variety of ways, depending on the time under water and how it's treated during the drying out / processing stage.
A quick google image search of water damaged film does bring up some examples with big white patches, though i agree they tend to be more streaky / linear and are somewhat different to the 'flashes' on Sasha's film.
Re winding the film, I'm not 100% sure but I think Sasha was using a Zorki 1 rangefinder camera, and as far as I can work out there's nothing unique on this camera with regard to winding the film back into the canister. If you wanted to unload the film in an everyday situation, you'd just hit and switch and then turn the rewind spool until the film came off the advance spool. The other option would be to unload the film without rewinding the pool in a dark room. My guess is you'd do the later in this case, because there'd be less risk of damaged the film further in the rewinding process. Can't see why there'd be any need to finish off the roll of film before unloading it. Though maybe that's a quirk of this camera?
mkk
01-06-2017 23:01 (GMT)
About Zolotaryov's camera and the uncertain pictures...
I don't know anything about film and stuff, so I googled it a little. It seems that water damage wouldn't result in random bits of the film being exposed (like all the "white blob" pics). Whatever was exposed would stay, but the picture might look a bit blurry or muddy or something.
(I'm not sure whether these links will be clickable, but you can copy & paste.)
The other suggestion I've read is that the person who recovered the camera & removed the film had to "use up" the remaining film in the lab in order to remove it from the camera. I don't understand why this would be. The old cameras i remember simply had a little knob that flipped out so you could wind up the film back into the roll before you took it out and put in a new roll. There's no reason you'd have to completely expose the film first. As a matter of fact, since the camera & film had been wet, I'd imagine that the developer wouldn't want to roll it back up at all before developing it because that might cause further damage to the film.
So, in spite of the strangeness of the photos, I can't find a good reason to discount them entirely.
Most of the pics on this site from his camera seem to be close-ups of small parts of the photographs. Is there any way to see the actual photographs, full-size, without cropping?
Nigel Evans
01-06-2017 13:29 (GMT)
@MB - i'd agree that you can't beat a photograph
MB
01-06-2017 13:23 (GMT)
Especially like them Just kidding, i'm not at all saying this event isnt related to something similar. I am saying human beings are awful eye witnesses, by and large. Memory is unreliable and easily influenced. Pictures of footprints and cuts in a tent are pieces of evidence that cant be refuted. Human reports are... more nuanced. Add that to the fact that lights in the sky are very common- and 'new' lights in the sky were common in the era of the early cold war, and i think you have to treat the reports of lights with some question that they are necessarily related.
Nigel Evans
31-05-2017 21:21 (GMT)
@MB - like the scientists investigating Hessdalen?
MB
31-05-2017 18:25 (GMT)
I dont discount the idea of some sort of storm/electrical anomaly, but on the other hand, people see lights in the sky all the time. Particularly when some mystery is in the offing.
Nigel Evans
31-05-2017 17:50 (GMT)
@Thomas Whiteside - ok we'll have to disagree. But i'd be interested in hearing from a relevant expert how 3 months under the snow can result in two different frames - Three heads and Eagle looking exactly like i would expect from an approaching GLO. That's one hell of a coincidence from random water damage. My only concern wrt these photos is that they are so good they could be fabricated as they seem to have just appeared on the scene many years later.
Wrt the witnessed lights, there were three reports from different highly dependable witnesses over three months including the rescue/investigative team itself who even radioed HQ over concerns for their safety. I'll agree that there's a question mark over the date of the ski party sighting (different sources disagree), but there is no question of the veracity of the three events from Jan to March 1959. Adding this to the fact that the Mansi have a pagan religion built around these lights (Golden Lady) and a more recent expedition recorded a light event that lasted over four hours and i think it's fair to say that the ball lightning theory has a basis in fact. The lights are real.
.. and there's no other theory for the DPI that fits all the facts...
Lightning
31-05-2017 12:33 (GMT)
Does this book explains dead birds, hot spot near tent, why the snow near tent and den was hard like a rock, why tree tops had burnt tops, why footprints look like they have been left on wet snow (it was at least -30 at that night)? If it doesn't, then it can't be called a book and it's not worth reading.
Thomas Whiteside
31-05-2017 11:28 (GMT)
@Lightning The 'Dyatlov Pass Keeps Its Secret' book goes into quite a lot of detail about the other supposed witnesses to the lights in the sky, and quite convincingly dispels this well known myth, pointing out that the other reports of lights related to another incident some distance away, a whole two weeks later. I don't have the book with my right now, but I'm happy to elaborate later.
@Nigel Evans I'm afraid I think what you're describing is paradelia. I simply don't see what you're seeing re the 'three heads' photo. These photos all come from a camera that spend three months under snow and water. No wonder they're damaged / light exposed. Additionally, much seems to be made about the camera being left cocked. Zorkis (and all russian viewfinders of that era) had famously fickle speed dials; the shutter must be cocked before the dial is adjusted. For this reason most users kept them cocked to avoid damaging the camera accidentally if the dial was knocked or adjusting without thinking.
Lightning
30-05-2017 16:45 (GMT)
@Thomas Whiteside- You are not convinced by 10s another witnesses who saw those lights?
Nigel Evans
30-05-2017 16:44 (GMT)
@Thomas Whiteside - the three heads works for me, undulating canvas at the bottom with the weave letting the intense light through, snow/graupnel passing in front of the light illuminated for the duration of the shot, the snow even repeatedly modulating as it rotates in high winds. There's too much that's right for it to be random damage?
Lightning
30-05-2017 16:44 (GMT)
@Thomas Whiteside- "Snow slip" theory doesn't make any sense. If it was powerful enough to cause injuries comparable to a car crash it would definetely crushed a dent and it would not be still secured on ground. Besides investigators would have noticed if there was any big chunk of ice or snow.
Thomas Whiteside
30-05-2017 16:22 (GMT)
Sorry, just to be clear. My commentary is based on a rejection of the massive bright lights in the three heads or eagle light photos etc. actually depicting a light show. I'm still not convinced they are of much meaning; they appear to be imperfections / damage to the film. It's not hard to get freaky looking things on damaged 35mm.
However, if you do think they depict a massive light event; then sure, I agree there'd be enough light to take some photos. My below commentary is based on there being normal night lighting conditions, including a good moon or a torch or two.
Thomas Whiteside
30-05-2017 16:09 (GMT)
The book goes through a bunch of various theories very nicely pointing to their strengths and weaknesses, then the author conclude my positing their own theory re the 'snow slip'. This theory is different still very different to the avalanche theory; a snow slip being a large chunk of ice / snow becoming dislodged rather than a full on avalanche. The idea is it hit only part of the tent; injuring some but not all etc. Theory posits those with broken ribs and cracked skulls were sufficiently mobile to be walked out but weren't much use beyond that etc. Anyway, I'm not here to argue big picture; more interested in the cameras right now.
I don't think it being a relatively bright night etc. overcomes the need for very good light to get a decent exposure. They are using flashless cameras, and flow speed film (I assume 100 or 200 ISO/ASA - 400 ISO/ASA didn't really come out until the early 70s).
Also, can you tell me what type of Zorkis they were using? Models 1 - 4 were available at the time. The photo on the camera section here appears to be a Zorki 1, but I've read on another forum someone had a Zorki 4.
Nigel Evans
30-05-2017 15:52 (GMT)
@Thomas Whiteside - I don't have the book to hand but from memory it discusses at least a dozen different theories. I thought that it was widely accepted that the existence of the footprints (of 8 to 9 individuals), the effort required to gather firewood and build a snowden versus the extensive fractures ruled out the possibility that they occured at the tent. AK was dead from a snapped neck, LD had a rib piercing her heart and NTB's skull was so badly split his head had lost symmetry. The avalanche theory has been discarded by most people interested in the dpi.
SZ was (it is assumed) a KGB agent and hence presumably well trained in using his second camera for day or night shots. If the photos are genuine then it wasn't dark! Imo the three heads photo is from inside the tent. If so then it seems plausible that he took the plane/eagle photos outside, got cold and returned inside were shortly after the GLO appeared right outside the tent, it's not a perfect shot it does seem a little over exposed but to be fair he was probably getting worried by then.
If you look under the "TENT" link above you'll see that when they descended they walked an extra 800 meters past the start of the treeline to reach the cedar which was the tallest tree by far and apparently provided a view of the tent from it's top half. This means that if the GLO was at the tent it would illuminate the top half of this tree and act as a beacon. That they walked twice the distance necessary to gather firewood is significant imo. They needed to get the the cedar because there was something at the tent to monitor.
MB
30-05-2017 14:01 (GMT)
Theres some discussion below that suggests lighting conditions that night (even though it was moonless until 3am) were unusual. See the discussions of the flashlights and where they were placed. Its not entirely conclusion (an additional flashlight may have never been recovered) but I think its pretty suggestive that they had enough light to see by for at least the beginning of the night.
Thomas Whiteside
30-05-2017 13:42 (GMT)
Oh and one more thing, the most logical reason for the camera being mounted on a tripod would appear to relate to the light needed for 35mm film.
There would have been very low light inside the tent, and one would need to use a very low shutter speed to even body attempting a photo. At any shutter speed below 1/60th you need to use a tripod otherwise you get a blurred image. I know no photo was taken inside the tent, but maybe someone thought about giving it a go in the fading afternoon light, set up the shot, and then decided it was a lost cause?
Also, is there any suggestion they were carrying light meters? I haven't picked on any suggestion they were? I'm pretty sure the 50s Zorkis didn't had inbuilt ones.
Thomas Whiteside
30-05-2017 13:33 (GMT)
First off, by the far the most convincing theory I've encountered so far is the 'snow slip' theory offered by Amanda Bosworth, Irina Lobatcheva, and Vladislav Lobatchev in 'Dyatlov Pass Keeps Its Secret'. The key being the fact only Slobodin's body left an ice thraw suggested he was still warm when he fell, and therefore suggesting injuries were caused inside the tent.
Anyway, just be reading again the camera section here, and a lot is made of the extra camera found around Zolotaryov's neck, supposedly taken by him when he left the tent to take photos of whatever terror was unfolding. This seems to miss a crucial point, it was dark! Manual rangefinders need light to work. Without a flash, there'd be no point taking the camera to take photos of whatever was occurring. Seems to me he was either just wearing it already, or keeping it safe to use another time.
Nigel Evans
30-05-2017 10:39 (GMT)
@Trf - i'd be interested in seeing a critique of SZ's photos if you find it again.
No my theory doesn't require lightning. The thundersnow theory is an alternative one to explain the ravine deaths and possibly YK/YD. A strong lightning strike has been known to throw people 30ft through the air and strip them naked. It's a good theory to explain natural barotrauma and burns and burnt clothing. But of course a weakness of the theory is that it requires very bad luck that the strike hits the ravine close enough to be fatal. N.B. the fire at the tall cedar might have encouraged the strike... But the "ball lightning at the tent followed by a collapse of the snow den theory" doesn't need it. They are alternative natural phenomena theories to explain the injuries. Currently i like the two phase collapse of the den the best. Doesn't make it true of course...
Trf
30-05-2017 07:16 (GMT)
@Nigel Evans
Like I said earlier, I do love your theory - but the negatives from Semyons camera aren't proof of anything. They're incredibly damaged and aren't necessarily photographs of light sources at all. I saw a good explanation from a photography expert but I can't find it.
I think Igor's last photograph is more telling, but even that could be anything.
Also, your theory involves severe lightning. You don't need to climb a tree in order to see ball lightning or some other extreme light phenomena. If it was extreme enough to make them slash their tent, surely it was lighting up the sky. Pretty obvious if it is still around the tent or not, no need to scale a tree.
Climbing a tree around lightning is illogical and obviously dangerous too. I think someone climbing so high (5 meters?) points towards someone trying either to hide or escape from something - or trying to provide a vantage on something that isn't so obvious as a ball of light. Or they were hypothermic and irrational and their tree climbing actions were chaotic. Firewood is another theory.
Nigel Evans
30-05-2017 06:06 (GMT)
@Lemmino YT - a smoke or carbon monoxide theory doesn't explain why they abandoned the tent without collecting clothing, headed for the cedar which was the tallest tree and provided a means of observing the tent site from it's top half. A good theory has to explain what kind of threat could cause them to vacate the tent area but seek to monitor it in order to return. Searching for an explanation for these facts we have eye witness accounts of lights and photos attributed to SZ.
Trf
29-05-2017 22:53 (GMT)
@Lemmino YT
The tent's canvas showed no signs of smoke or burn damage. Nor do any objects inside the tent. There certainly wasn't a large fire inside there because everything would be burnt. So maybe just smoke?
I agree that smoke is a great motivator to slash the tent - but it doesn't explain the horrific injuries that occurred later. It also doesn't explain why they walked so far from the tent. After the smoke was exhausted - why not grab your shoes? Why walk off barefoot?
Lemmino YT
29-05-2017 22:19 (GMT)
It's pretty obvious that the disassembly of Dyatlov's homemade stovepipe coupled with freshly burnt embers was the culprit that hastily smoked them all out of the overcrowded tent in the middle of the night and then sent them scrambling down the hill disoriented into the woods to procure additional kindling and cover and ultimately meet their untimely demise in the freezing pitch darkness. Ball lightning and Karman vortex streets? Come on, grow a brain people.
Nigel Evans
29-05-2017 21:12 (GMT)
@Trf - hi there.
Your theory has to deny the photos attributed to SZ, my theory embraces them.
YK's burn was a foot long (30cm) and the skin was charred down to the underlying tissues. It is accepted that this couldn't be accidental. Either he was unconcious or tortured or already dead or something else. That he bit his hands so hard rules out some of those. We can't prove where the burn came from but i like it as a reason for immediately vacating the tent.
It might not have been -20C, Ctrl F this page for hot spot.
I don't buy that they immediately vacate the tent and leave their clothing because the weather scared them. It was something stronger than that. Cue SZ's three heads photo.
Glad you like the theory overall.
The footprints were almost all from people without boots. Either they are genuine or fabricated, no possibility of contamination. The wind exposes or covers depending on the shape of the terrain. The bigger question is how did they survive 4 weeks, cue the warm snow theory.
Trf
29-05-2017 20:35 (GMT)
@Nigel Evans
It doesn't have to be something as rare/controversial and unprecedented as ball lightning for the theory to make sense. It could've just been normal lightning or bad wind. Have some terrifying, loud inclement weather roll over you and it can cause a panick, which leads to the tent being cut open.
From there, the only logical thing to do is to move to cover which is the tree line. The bad weather was still a pressing concern so most didn't bother getting correctly dressed, they just got out of there. Loud wind or stormy conditions may have made them worry about avalanche or snow drift which makes the tent on the slope a scary place to stay. They probably weren't thinking about consequences, they just wanted to get out and assumed they could come back for their items later.
I don't agree with you in your assessment of the burns. I think it is perfectly reasonable to expect freezing people without shoes be so desperate for warmth that they burn themselves without realising. I believe the burns were probably caused by the fire at the cedar tree. It is easy to burn yourself when huddled up by a fire, especially if you're drifting in and out of consciousness or suffering from hypothermia.
You mention it wasn't that cold. Most estimates put the weather that night to be around -20C. I don't care if you're a Jamacain or an Eskimo, being shoeless in -20C with high wind and wet snow would be enough to put your body into shock and begin hypothermia. This is scientific fact. They would have not been comfortable by any means. Sure, they didn't all have frostbite but you don't need horrific frostbite to die of hypothermia.
I agree with your general idea about the injuries they suffered. I think it was a combination of falls and impact with debris due to inclement weather. It isn't a coincidence that the individuals in the "snow den" had the worst of the impact injuries.
I think the most likely solution is bad weather scared at least one of the hikers to make them slash their way out of the tent. This rendered the tent inhospitable so they moved to get cover. Murphy's law took over and provided the rest.
Overall, your theory is excellent. I understand that the camera being on the corpse of Semyon may be a sign of some weird and wonderful weather phenomena occurring. Ivor's last photo might point to the same thing. As does the eye witness reports of light around the general area.
One question I have is about the footprints. Surely we can't put much stock into them. The investigators had no idea of the nature of the mystery when they found the sight and more than likely contaminanted the scene on arrival. Also, if enough snowfall occurred to essentially completely obscure the bodies - how were footprints still visible?
Nigel Evans
29-05-2017 15:06 (GMT)
@Lightning - "Others reported skin redness, vomiting and loss of hair, which are typical results of ionizing radiation". This all fits with the dpi of course.
However Wu is discussing lightning bolts generating microwaves which produce short lived ball lightning of relatively small size and short lifetimes. The DP lights are different and perhaps have more in common with Hessdalen where objects "as big as a barn" can last for hours and have a radar signature without being visible. Clearly there's a lot of overlap but what creates the microwaves would seem to be different. I like the large atmospheric maser/soliton theory of course.
Lightning
29-05-2017 13:16 (GMT)
@Nigel Evans- microwaves can actually cause "debiitating force". "Occurring at 0.1 J/cm^2, nerve damage can lead to a numbness in the limbs. The microwave reaches 1 J/cm^2 for ball formation."
My best guess so far :- 1. YK gets too close to the GLO at the tent and suffers an electrical or microwave burn. YD could have been burnt also but his "burns" are also consistent with frostbite from spending too long up the cedar in severe windchill. YK's injuries force an immediate but orderly withdrawal to the cedar. There is good evidence that temperatures were raised above normal and the group may have prefered immediate withdrawal to collecting unnecessary clothing (most of the group had no frostbite even though they had no gloves or boots and the fire and the den clearly took some time to create). 2. YK and YD die first at the campfire. YK is in such pain that he bites the back of his hand off which is found in his mouth. That he was conscious just before death makes it difficult imo to argue that his massive leg burn was accidental from the campfire. The rescuers claim that the footsteps where from 8 or 9 people. Imo this points to YK being carried part of the way. 3. A two phase collapse of the snow den creates the fractures including RS. The first collapse pushes the group off their seats with NTB's head lying between LD and SZ all of them struggling under the snow. AK gets his head above the snow just in time for the second much heavier collapse. This snaps AK's neck and punches the first fall of snow along a line cracking two chests and one skull. The "punch" is softened by the first fall so that it crushes without bruising or breaking limbs. RS is at the periphery of the first fall and receives more direct contact with it which does result in bruising. 4. The remaining three rescue the ravine four plus RS. AK is dead but all the others are still alive. Clothing is taken from YD/YK to try and make the injured comfortable. LD dies shortly afterwards and some of her clothing is passed to SZ who tries to write in his notebook. 5. As the leader ID decides to brace the cold and remain with the injured but instructs ZK to get RS back to the shelter of the tent now that the GLO has gone (and perhaps return with more clothing). 6. RS and ZK both collapse on the return journey. They together with ID all exhibit facial "scratches". Note this is consistent with other ball lightning experiences the theory being that it is caused by microwaves. 7. The last to die in the ravine would have been NTB estimated by the pathologist at taking two hours. ID now suffering from hypothermia tries to return but also collapses. The returning three all lie within 330 meters of each other suggesting imo some "debiitating force". 8. At sunrise a group of crows find the bodies removing eyes/tongue etc shortly before further snowfall/wind drift buries the bodies.
Lightning
29-05-2017 09:23 (GMT)
@Jordan As mentioned before here it is impossible that another human being can inflict such a damage. Medical examiner compared impact force to car crash. No normal human being cannot inflict such a damage neither a soldier. Besides if it was some super human it would definetely caused soft tissue damage, but there weren't any.
Jordan
29-05-2017 06:01 (GMT)
Chris,
You're right. I'm not really drawn to the light in the sky thing but I just felt like mentionining it. Can't discard it, primarily due to the witness accounts.
I also think the cause must be somehow related to the Soviet Union's government, because they undoubtedly obstructed the investigation and aftermath. Maybe their obstructiveness was just the way they operated about everything though.
The more I read the more convinced I am the hiker's injuries were inflicted by other human beings. Almost all of them had impact trauma - not just the ones in the snow den. Zina had a large "baton like" bruise on her stomach and Rustik had a strike to the head too. An avalanche could cause this, but that's all but been ruled out.
Chris
29-05-2017 04:57 (GMT)
The specks on the photo, based on the randomness of?their shapes, appear to be specks of radiation or other contamination. The film was under water for three months and very likely corrupted. There was one photo that showed what many call "lights in the sky", this could easily be an out-of-focus shot of a camp fire, or a meteor, or a UFO.
Jordan
29-05-2017 03:49 (GMT)
I think there is enough evidence to seriously consider the lights in the sky as a part of this. I don't want to sound like a tin foil hat UFO man - but there is evidence. The last photo they took appears to be a light. The negatives from Sasha's camera appear to be photographs of a light source. Several of them. Then we have the witness testimonies and observed light phenomena from that area. Then we have the tree marks.
I think they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. I just don't know why seeing light phenomena would motivate you to shred your tent.
It also explains why the Soviet officials covered it up. The lights were probably military testing.
I also think there is enough evidence to consider the blunt force trauma being the result of hostility.
I have a feeling the tent was shredded after the group were dead.
MB
22-05-2017 14:17 (GMT)
If it was so bitterly cold that they were already suffering from hypothermia IN the tent, it begs the question why they pitched the tent out in the open on the mountain. Demonstrably its a quick walk to gain some shelter and pitch the tent in a safer spot. Yudin postulated that Dyatlov chose that spot to challenge their mountaineering skills, which seems reasonable if the weather was amendable, but suicidal if the weather was already punishing them. Their state of dress (undress) also points to reasonably mild conditions when they camped. I think there are a some indications that there was a major shift in the weather in the night that contributed to the endgame.
Nigel Evans
22-05-2017 09:52 (GMT)
@Lightning - thundersnow can explain events after leaving the tent but not why they left it.
Saturnalia
21-05-2017 13:10 (GMT)
"if they were suffering from hypothermia why go 1.5 km away from the tent. They could just light up their oven or if it didn't work make a campfire near the tent? Suffering from hypothermia i can't possible see how could they walk 1.5 km."
Their tent was full of big holes, stove does not help much then. You can walk if you have hypothermia. Survival instict makes wonders for your performance.
But yeah, Nigel is right. They propably were feeling warm and okay, because they had undressed. Still...very, very limited space inside the tent. According to weather reports it was not horribly cold night.
Lightning
21-05-2017 12:52 (GMT)
Much colder air from the mountain collided with the warmer air. Was it cloudy during the day?
Lightning
21-05-2017 12:38 (GMT)
@ Nigel Evans- So it shows that temperature was suitable for formation of thundersnow?
Nigel Evans
21-05-2017 12:23 (GMT)
the software just stripped all the nice spacing out but hopefully still readable.
Nigel Evans
21-05-2017 12:22 (GMT)
From "Don't go there", temperatures from nearest weather stations, Feb 1-2.
That they were not wearing the above, particularly the gloves and felt boots indicates that they were not suffering from hypothermia...
Nigel Evans
21-05-2017 11:45 (GMT)
@Saturnalia -
They used the backpacks with the skis to create a floor that insulated them from the ground. But they had to sleep with the contents of course. But a lot of that would be clothing. I don't think they undressed much, imo what they left the tent wearing was their sleepwear. They hadn't washed in days, probably better to stay dressed
It's worth remembering that at this latitude in winter they would have limited daylight hours say 8 hours per day so 16 hours of darkness. It's possible that they normally slept in shifts with the others outside by the fire. The last night was an exception and they probably didn't expect a good nights sleep, just catnap.
Someone has speculated that they didn't take their outer clothing because it was wet and perhaps frozen. Good point perhaps but it doesn't explain why they didn't grab their valenki (felt boots) and other clothing.
On the first day the men carried 40kg backpacks and the girls 30kg, they left 55kg of food at the base camp to ascend, they didn't carry firewood for the stove, normally it was just outside the camp, they left three hand axes behind in the tent which also indicates the rush. That the stove was found inside the tent indicates imo that they hadn't settled in for the night, it would make sense to leave it outside in the snow for sleeping.
But imo the temperature wasn't -25C, these people must have been outside for at least 1 hour maybe longer in their socks with no gloves, no face protection and yet there is very little frostbite recorded, most of them don't have any. With the reported high winds the effective/wind chill temperature would have been much lower, could have been -50C. You'd get frostbite in minutes... The lack of frostbite, hot spot, footprints that last for weeks, snow on tent as hard as wood, it's all pointing at unusually warm conditions that subsequently returned to normal (much colder).
Lightning
21-05-2017 09:30 (GMT)
@Saturnalia- if they were suffering from hypothermia why go 1.5 km away from the tent. They could just light up their oven or if it didn't work make a campfire near the tent? Suffering from hypothermia i can't possible see how could they walk 1.5 km.
Saturnalia
21-05-2017 08:53 (GMT)
Somebody here noted that tent size was very small. I do agree. It is not impossible to fit nine people inside that tent without backpacks, but it"s gonna be very tight. No room for anything else, even turning around while sleeping is will be difficult.
How they did it with backpacks, is bit of a mystery. If everybody used their backpack as a pillow, then just about...but it was definitely claustrofobic inside the tent. Oxygen levels were propably suffering, expecially when the stove was on. Positive side is that when people pack themselves next to each other this tightly, they will heat up each other.
Just how they managed to undress and dress orderly inside so tight space is a mystery. It is not entirely impossible, i have done that in the army, but it is very slow process to dress up inside so tight space. Had this reality something to do with the fact they exited the tent undressed? Dressing up would have taken many minutes to do, and they somehow did not have minutes.
What buzzles me is the fact that the stove was not on that night. When i think how tightly next to each other they were sleeping, i kinda understand that, they did not need the stove that night, they heated up each other somewhat. Anyway, it was still cold.
Sleeping at -20C without a stove and without modern, high-tech sleeping bags and stuff can freak you out. It"s scary. It freaked me out once in the army pretty badly. During the hardest training period we were sleeping at -25C without sleeping bags and stove really did not help much. It"s scary when you lose the control of your mouth and can not speak anymore properly.
When we marched back to barracks i walked straight to the hot shower with my rifle and everything on, and got short punishment but i did not care. It was worth it. Never have shower felt so good in my life.
It somehow looks like they decided to try some kind of new experiment that night, trying to sleep without a stove by just getting packed very tightly, but it did not work very well. They were close to hypothermia, and then something extraordinary happened, or at least they imagened so.
Nigel Evans
19-05-2017 09:18 (GMT)
@Lightning - Svetlana Oss in her book - "Don't go there" gives the relevant reports from all the local weather stations. None of them are very close, say 50 miles away but from memory they all report ordinary conditions for the time of year, average temps/wind speeds etc. However people in settlements closer reported very high winds... Wind would be stronger at 1000m of course.
Lightning
19-05-2017 07:54 (GMT)
Are there any weather reports/maps about this area in February and March (doesn't matter what language, Google Translate will help)?
Nigel Evans
18-05-2017 21:28 (GMT)
@Saturnalia - the ball lightning theory has it that they could see the tent from the top half of the cedar because this was outside it - http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Zolotaryov-camera-01.jpg and that it had burnt the two Yuris by the tent forcing the group to immediately withdraw.
MB
18-05-2017 17:36 (GMT)
If it was murder it was the most inconvenient murder imaginable.
Tim mckernan
18-05-2017 17:06 (GMT)
Finger nail scrapings and or hair transfers could Yield DNA. This could point directly to which tribe and relative if they were murdered...RIGHT! They will find Emeilla first and flight M 270.
Saturnalia
18-05-2017 16:42 (GMT)
Watching those recent russian scene recreation videos that distance to the ravine from the tent looks like a loooong walk. Russian guy walks it and it takes over 20 minutes from him in the snow. They propably thought that their tent was now useless for survival and decided to build a den down hill. Walked there without their shoes and full clothes then. This case is insane. If they acted rationally after leaving the tent, why didn"t they pick up their shoes then from the tent? Something obviously prevented. It"s a looong walk to the ravine in the snow. Why go so far? Tent disappeared from their sight when they were only half way down. If somebody was on the tent he did not see them anymore, and they did not see him. From the ravine the tent was visible, but it"s just a little black dot far, far away. Tent was mile away and it was more or less dark. I don"t believe they tried to see the tent from the tree, tent was just too far away to really tell anything about happening around it. So, they rationally and calmly abandoned their tent and their shoes and clothes, and walked down to the ravine? Tent was screwed and new den was needed down hill, but why to leave important clothing behind? It"s like, there was somehow no way to return inside the tent, even after calm consideration. Weird. Only reason i can find to walk such a great distance without proper clothing was that they decided to build that den immediately, right after leaving the tent. That was the reason they went down hill, tent was useless. But why not to take shoes with them then? It"s just crazy. More you think of it it seems they ran down hill in panic without any plan about the den. That would explain why they left their important clothing behind. Flaslight was propably found to be non-working, so they just threw it away while they ran. Many of you propably have thought this case way more than me, i just try to fork around this a bit.
Nigel Evans
18-05-2017 07:53 (GMT)
@Saturnalia - SZ didn't have any head fractures. He didn't have any bruising to explain the chest fractures. Ditto NTB, his head fractures were more extensive than described on this site, the base of his skull was cracked from side to side, but no bruising. It's impossible to do this with a rifle butt? In fact although the ravine four carried other bruises they didn't have any that could explain the extensive fractures. Hence speculation that barotrauma was involved. But there are no burst lungs/ears that would be expected from an explosion. One explanation to fit the profile is the roof of the den collapsed. Or there was an explosion further back in the ravine snow bank that attenuated the shockwave enough to not burst tissues but still had enough force to throw the den and it's occupants sideways 6-10 meters perhaps. Dyatlov is above Helsinki, not the artic circle but getting there.
Saturnalia
18-05-2017 06:13 (GMT)
One member has severe head and chest injuries, but the camera hanging from his neck is intact. Blows that broke his chest did not touch his camera hanging on the top of the chest. This seems to indicate that those blows were very well aimed indeed. Somebody hit him with the backside of the rifle when he was on the ground. Did not hit the camera, which is weird. How camera can survive intact the force that crushes your chest? It swung on the side somehow? There"s so many mysteries in this case it"s unbelievable. Guy had a pee, and then started to run for cover. Threat must have been dramatic. One single mansi with a rifle will not cause this kind of panic. Who knows. Guy having a pee yelled to others inside the tent that "here"s a man with a gun!". Could everybody panic because of that? Somehow does not sound convincing. It must have been something more dramatic.
Dyatlov pass is around 1400 kilometers from here, at the same global height. It is not very far north.
MB
17-05-2017 19:50 (GMT)
We should expect the unusual, something unusual (or several somethings) certainly happened to these people, or a plausible solution would be available. The foot prints exist because the photos exist. Usual or not the searchers found them. Is it more likely that an uncommon sequence occurrence like a quick freeze followed by snow followed by wind just as the searchers arrived, or some much more unlikely or inexplicable event? Im not saying something genuinely unprecedented isnt possible, but if we're talking odds, i think those are longer odds.
Nigel Evans
17-05-2017 17:33 (GMT)
All discussions of temperature should recognise the reported high winds with associated wind chill, i.e. -25C can be in effect -50C if the wind is strong enough.
Nigel Evans
17-05-2017 17:31 (GMT)
@Lightning - from memory one of the reports talks about " a light surrounded by a mist", note the eagle1 and 2 photos.
Nigel Evans
17-05-2017 17:23 (GMT)
@Saturnalia - we crossed posted there, this is Siberia in Feb on the North side of the mountain, reasonable that the temperature shouldn't get above say -15C?
Lightning
17-05-2017 17:23 (GMT)
Well i found an exactly the same description of ball lightning that witnesses saw around that time (February and March) in Dyatlov. And it also happened at winter! And it also exploded! (Size of a moon and halo around it)
Nigel Evans
17-05-2017 17:01 (GMT)
@Saturnalia - as you say the facts strongly point to a static natural threat at the tent, forcing them to withdraw to safe distance and light a fire/build a den. But do you think that the footsteps can be explained by the temperature of the snow being raised close to it's melt point and then refrozen?
@MB - being covered by snow until just before discovery is an explanation but of course an improbable one. Occam's Razor doesn't explain the hot spot, or the rescue team reporting that the snow on the tent was as hard as wood.
Saturnalia
17-05-2017 16:52 (GMT)
Temperatures travel up and down inside four weeks quite a lot usually, melting and freezing again. Four weeks is a month, about. A long time during the winter. Many things are just about possible, but it is very unusual to be able the trace sharp footprints on snow after a month. Mellow round-edged shallow potholes. You can tell if it was two legged or four legged, but that"s about it. Of course mountain conditions can differ somewhat. Temps are colder higher up and there is less snowfall. Melting temperatures are less likely to happen on higher altitude.
MB
17-05-2017 16:31 (GMT)
@Nigel I dont know how much weight i'd give those followup expeditions regarding footprints. How many variables are involved? You'll never know if youve replicated whatever conditions existed exactly, and you'd really need dozens or hundreds of tests under differing conditions to even get an idea. I do know that footprints sometimes quickly ice over and then can be covered with snow that is later blown off. I'd suggest Occams Razor tells us thats likely what happened.
Saturnalia
17-05-2017 16:20 (GMT)
About those footsteps, there are no sharp footsteps after four weeks even if conditions were dead calm during all that time, which is very unlikely. Footsteps on snow smooth out quite fast, they become like mellow-edged round pots. Definitely untracable after four weeks. You can tell that a human stepped there, but that"s about it.
Saturnalia
17-05-2017 16:12 (GMT)
Thank you for your critique. I just tried to find some new leads. I have read tons about this case. That flashlight. Yeah, they propably left it behind intentionally as a beacon if it was not dead already. If it was dead already they could have just thrown it away. That means the threat they experienced was not mobile. It was a static threat around the tent area that did not chase them following the light cue. A static threat, that makes a group leave their tent in horror. Now what could that be? Human threat would have followed them, using the light cue. It was not a human threat if they left that flashlight there intentionally to find back to tent. If we believe in this flashlight theory, it was unhuman threat. This is very fascinating case indeed. Non-human threat, wow. Non-intellectual threat. We can pretty much count all animals out too, no one wants to leave them a light cue. A threat that did nor care about the flaslight next to it. I hate that thunderball theory, but something cold and unhuman it was. It seems like they behaved rationally right after leaving the tent, sort of. Missed the base camp though. Threat existed only around the tent area, it was not able to travel. Static, nonhuman threat. Sounds and blasts are not very static, they have a wide effect area. It looks like this threat was quite strongly limited around the tent area. What kind of threat could be static, unintellectual and unhuman? If it would have a blast of some kind, it would have been over after the blast. It was static and unintellectual but it lasted, preventing them from returning. Very, very interresting. It did not move but it did not go away rapidly. What the heck could that be?
Nigel Evans
17-05-2017 16:06 (GMT)
@Saturnalia - given your experience of these conditions i'd be interested in your view of the footsteps lasting four weeks. Subsequent winter expeditions have reported that they cannot reproduce this persistence. One theory is that the temperature that night was higher, closer to the snow's melt point resulting in impressions that when they refroze lasted much longer in the high wind conditions.
mkk
17-05-2017 14:12 (GMT)
@Saturnalia--My understanding is that there were broken fibers, or "blade scratches" on the inside of the tent around the cuts, but not on the outside. As though someone made attempts to cut through the tent from the inside before actually succeeding.
But there have been some questions as to how accurately the cuts on the tent were recorded (number, size, placement) since, at first, the volunteers were simply looking for the hikers and hoping to find them alive. I don't know whether that's a valid question, or whether the investigators can be trusted to have made accurate notes of everything.
Your theory of hypothermia makes sense at first glance, but it sounds like maybe you aren't familiar with the other pieces of information.
It seems that the only part of their behavior which makes no sense is leaving the tent. The rest of their behavior seems to be perfectly rational. There was a flashlight which looked like it had been left as a beacon to mark the way back to the tent. After the first two died (under the cedar tree) the others laid them out respectfully and donned pieces of their clothing to help fight the cold. (Thus some of them in the ravine were found wearing pieces of the clothing from the guys under the tree.) There was distinct evidence of a snow cave having been built, with evergreen branches for seats. None of this sounds like the behavior of people losing their ability to think carefully and attempt to survive. Even if it were some strange kind of temporary insanity that caused them to leave the tent, why not return to it to get supplies & gear as soon as their wits returned?
So we are left trying to figure out why intelligent, brave mountaineers decided they had a better chance of survival in the Siberian forest in February (without full winter clothing!) than in their tent. I agree with you, that people don't run out into the freezing night because of a weird sound. (Although--have you ever experienced infrasound? There are some sites online where you can hear/feel it if you have earphones. It's pretty crazy. I can see how it might drive someone batty after several hours. Only it doesn't explain why they didn't take sixty seconds longer to put on their shoes.)
Nigel has a good theory, which he explains in the thread below.
Nigel Evans
17-05-2017 13:11 (GMT)
@Saturnalia - about the theory that they were suffering from cold, but the theory has to explain how they were sufficiently sane to leave a flashlight as a beacon along the path to the cedar and collect firewood and make a fire but sufficiently confused to leave their footwear and other clothing in the tent. There are several key questions wrt the dpi and the biggest is why do that? You'll have to read the thread to get upto speed, checkout the three heads photo.
Saturnalia
17-05-2017 08:29 (GMT)
Two days before death their diary says:
"Came out relatively early (around 10am). Took the same Mansi sled trail. Till now we walk along a Mansi trail, which was crossed by a deer hunter not long ago. Yesterday we apparently came across his resting stop. Deer didn't go much further. The hunter didn't follow the beaten trail and we are now in his steps."
They travelled something like 6-8 miles per day. Mansis with a gun were no more than 12-15 miles away from their last camp. Propably closer. On a clear day you can see miles and miles on that kind of mountain area. Mansis propably had them on their view most of the time.
Saturnalia
17-05-2017 07:18 (GMT)
How we know the tent was cut from the inside? There has been quite a few criminal attacks on tents where tent was cut from the outside by the attacker. For me this looks like a some kind of outside attack, and then they escaped on wrong direction away from the base camp. Otherwise they would have cut the tent open without seeing the attacker, only based on sound, which is quite weird logically. IF the tent was cut from the inside, it was done based only on sound. If you think logically, there are no such sounds out there that make you do something that suicidal as destroying your tent on freezing cold arctic weather. I have been military trained on arctic where i live too, and you just do not destroy our tent like that based on some weird sound. Nobody is that stupid, and those people were intelligent scientists. They know the consequences of their every action exactly. I have slept on exactly same kind of conditions on tent during the military years, as a member of a same kind of group, and one suggestion that came to my mind is boring and simple, they experienced hypothermia inside the tent, i have experienced that once, and started to behave weirdly because of that. On hypothermia you want to undress. As far as i understand their stove was not on or there at all. It"s lethally cold to sleep on wet clothes at -30C without heat source. Problem with this logic is why they were so stupid then? Was their stove there? Without working stove on -30C after a day hiking, jesus. They possibly went on hypothermia inside the tent.
mkk
16-05-2017 23:25 (GMT)
@Tim--"the snow cave is to clean cut". Typo for "too"? As in, "the snow cave looks more neat and tidy than I'd expect, for being built in the dark."
Not trying to be annoying; just making sure I understand you.
Nigel Evans
16-05-2017 15:25 (GMT)
@Tim - i don't agree with most of that but in particular i don't understand the first sentence, what do you mean by "The shovel is out of place in the sequence of exiting the tent."?
Tim mckernan
16-05-2017 13:06 (GMT)
The shovel is out of place in the sequence of exiting the tent. Someone knew where the shovel was in the dark and used it to inflict some of the injuries on the hikers. The snow cave is to clean cut and looks staged for people freezing to death.
Michal Kantor (photo editor Bauer Media Prague)
16-05-2017 12:39 (GMT)
Hello, we'd like to write a double-page on Dytlov Pass in our Rhythm of Life magazine. We would like to use photos from your site. Possible? Thanks for the reply. mkantor@bauermedia.cz
MB
12-05-2017 13:45 (GMT)
@rol88 I actually think its very likely that two or more unlikely events happened in quick succession in this case. Thats the reason its such an enduring mystery. Its a game of statistics, millions of people have gone hiking in the last 60 years. Almost all of them have come back safe. Some have suffered accidents that are readily explained. A few have disappeared or are otherwise still mysterious. You get enough people out hiking over a long enough period of time, sooner or later something very unlikely is going to happen to them. Sooner or later two or more very unlikely things are going to happen, and its going to seem extremely mysterious in retrospect. IE- every so often somewhere in the world a cars brakes go out. Every so often the steering goes out. On very, very rare occasions the brakes and the steering go out near simultaneously for completely unrelated reasons. To the naked eye that seems so unlikely they there must be some connection or conspiracy, but thats not necessarily so. Its just the law of big numbers.
Nigel Evans
12-05-2017 09:48 (GMT)
@Rol88- well 5 deaths (if you include RS) are a result of the ravine event which is clearly due to mechanical force or barotrauma not radioactivity. Maybe the helicopter pilots had their suspicions about radiation and took a detector with them?
Rol88
12-05-2017 07:38 (GMT)
@Nigel Evans : My point is that it is highly unlikely the threat could be just " natural" phenomenon , -whether it is GLO or something else - given the fact the hikers were hurt and killed in 2 or 3 separate events. Natural phenomenon tends to strike randomly . It looks like they were targeted . If we assume it was GLO well I have never read about a " natural" GLO killing 9 people ( or even 8 people ,death of Dyatlov seems to be real hypothermia ) . The Hessdalen site you mentioned has never reported a single human casualty despite the fact it is inhabited ! Now it might very well be some kind of experiment which went out of control due to incompetence or stupidity . The highly secretive attitude of the Soviet authorities towards the case is very suspicious . It looks like they knew more than what they said . How do you explain the searching helicopter landed with a Geiger device on its board ? Who or what gave them the idea there might be some amount of radioactivity on some of the bodies or the clothes ? Is a Geiger Muller device a standard item in the rescue equipment of people stranded in the wild ? Even the pilots knew something and refused 1st to embark the bodies. They did it under threat . DPI looks more related to deaths associated with UFO such as cattle and even human mutilation etc. Also it reminds me of a very troubling case which happened in Brazil in 1966 . Pls check " the Lead masks case " btw the victims were also radio technicians. ..
mkk
11-05-2017 22:53 (GMT)
@Brittany--I've wondered a lot about that. I haven't read anything about it, but it's curious.
Does he mean that he just couldn't find the time to write for the group? Or that he couldn't write while he was walking/skiing like in the pic of Zina? Or maybe he's just being intentionally irritating to the rest of the group, avoiding a responsibility he doesn't really like?
Or maybe it's something more serious and meaningful. I'm curious to hear other people's opinions and thoughts.
Brittany
11-05-2017 18:44 (GMT)
I don't know if this is relevant to the DPI, but I haven't seen it discussed here before. Do we know what NT was referring to in his journal entry on 1/26?
"I can't, although I tried."
HA42
11-05-2017 18:27 (GMT)
I have analyzed the pictures of the unknown camera. Hereby I have counted how often a person was taken a picture from. By that analysis the camera must have been in the hand of Slobodin or Krivonischenko, because they are only on 2 or 3 pictures. And whos camera it was, he was interested in Zinaida Kolmogorova. And here's the entire result. Person Number of pictures on which the person is being fotographed Kolevatov 5 Dyatlov 4 Kolmogorova 12 Doroschenko 6 Dubinina 10 Yuri Yudin 1 Opa 1 Krivonischenko 3 Zolotaryov 6 Thibeaux-Brignolle 6 Slobodin 2
Nigel Evans
11-05-2017 17:13 (GMT)
@Rol88 - there's a nice quote on the viafanzine page below :- The "Heinlein Razor" (or Hanlon) represents the claim about the likely role of human error in the causes of unpleasant events. It says, " Never attribute malice to what can be adequately explained by stupidity ." The principle is named after Robert A. Heinlein formulated this idea first in his "Logic of Empire" (1941). The idea that the world is governed by a far greater measure of stupidity and incompetence than by malice and malice has repeatedly sounded from the lips of great men like Goethe and Napoleon. But people are much easier to convince themselves with the idea of ??a conspiracy than to make them believe that the world is governed purely by incompetence.
Nigel Evans
11-05-2017 15:21 (GMT)
@Rol88 - i have to disagree with the "evil intelligence theory". As said below the ravine deaths (perhaps including RS's injuries) could be due to the collapse of the den (accident) and the returning three are due to cold possibly combined with other factors such as microwaves. It could be that the ball lightning itself only injured the two Yuris and was unconnected with anything else. However it is true that some ball lightning events move towards people and two eye witnesses of lights in the dpi area talk of the lights behaving as if they know they were being observed which is interesting but no more than that. The answer lies in the science of the future. If you stand under a tree and lightning kills you it's not due to it having evil intelligence....
Rol88
11-05-2017 14:44 (GMT)
MB you're right, if the KGB wanted them dead they would have found a blunt, simple and brutal way to'' liquidate'' them . On the contrary , we see the trip was facilitated on't forget Krivo made a scene at Ivdel , was taken to the police station and released the same day ... We know that Zolotaryov who had nothing to do with the students was almost certainly a KGB agent . Dyatlov did not give the exact details of his route to the University which sponsored the trip.The strange decision of Dyatlov to pitch the tent in the middle of a barren slope in a blizzard ( an aberration !) many details point out to the fact the hikers were actually on a mission to observe or track some strange phenomena in the region. IMO these phenomena ,Globular lightning or whatever caused the demise of the hikers could not be ''natural''. The ''threat'' which drove them out of their tent was dangerous enough to cause the death of ALL of them . A '' Natural'' threat would have caused the death of one or two hikers but not the demise of ALL of them( even the bodies of some which allegedly died of hypothermia showed horrible lesions ie Slobodin had a cranial crack ,Kolevatov a broken neck , Krivo a 3rd degree burn and Doro burnt hair etc) there must be an evil intelligence behind this ''threat'' which pursued and killed the hikers . Now whether this malevolent ''intelligence'' is human or not is yet to be discovered.
@MB - quite agree, imo if the KGB deemed the DPI to have any significance we would never have even heard of it. The only reason it was so well investigated is that there was a question mark wrt defection (relatively near the Finnish border) of the ravine four who took 3 months to find. In particular it sounds like AK had worked in sensitive areas and the state wanted to know that he had died not defected plus SZ of course. Once they had all the bodies they closed the investigation as it was of no further interest to the state. Apparently when the ravine four were discovered Ivanov didn't even bother visiting the location. No need to, he knew that their discovery had ended the investigation with a predetermined cause.
User45
11-05-2017 08:26 (GMT)
@HA42 Could you make a screenshot of your sightings for I can not see what you see. Thank you.
MB
11-05-2017 04:08 (GMT)
The problem with any of the KGB, etc theories is that it was 1959 in the Soviet Union. If the KGB wanted them dead, they would have shot them, announced them traitors, and there would be zero mystery, zero inquiry, zero surprise. It happened all the time. The last thing Soviet government agents would do to hide a secret is to draw attention to the secret with an elaborate, inexplicable murder. 1000 times easier to put them on a train to Siberia where they would never be seen or heard from again, and anyone they knew too terrified to ask questions.
HA42
10-05-2017 23:21 (GMT)
On the picture Nr 9 of Zolotaryovs camera, you can see the face of a military guy with a hat and mustash smiling sadistic in the camera, just next to the white point in the lower middle part of the picture. You have to zoom in, in order to see it. It is, as if it was taken in the dark without any flash, so they don't find out, that he had a camera.
Nigel Evans
10-05-2017 20:55 (GMT)
@MB - they've still got to work inside the den, those seats were carefully constructed.
MB
10-05-2017 20:31 (GMT)
Its possible they moved to the ravine and built the shelter when the moon rose. I wish we had a better timeline.
Nigel Evans
10-05-2017 20:13 (GMT)
@MB - thinking on it further how did they build the den and kit it out with seats without some illumination? Must have been a third flashlight maybe now buried in the streams sediment? Whilst leaving one behind as a beacon makes sense, leaving your last one is less sensible perhaps.
@Lightning - thanks i think that's a recent update. Interesting that they can last for over 4 hours and this opinion that they come towards you if you look at them....
Lightning
10-05-2017 17:43 (GMT)
This page http://www.viafanzine.jor.br/site_vf/pag/5/dyatlov_part04.htm which Nigel Evans posted here quite a long time ago. If you scroll down to all most at the end of the page you can see a picture of ball lightning that one hiking group took at the same site 2012. So i think these photos from 1959 are legit.
Nigel Evans
10-05-2017 17:07 (GMT)
@MB - maybe add the aurora to the list.
MB
10-05-2017 16:35 (GMT)
I think so, GLO or lightning storm with low clouds. Unless there was another flashlight that was never recovered, I dont see how there wasnt an odd light condition.
Nigel Evans
10-05-2017 16:08 (GMT)
@MB - well if the three heads photo is genuine then the GLO would be a good source of light which could be reflected from snowfall above and possibly the terrain around. So the moon could be unnecessary.
MB
10-05-2017 15:36 (GMT)
I'd say, but I dont think there's any question they fled the tent and were traveling well before moonrise. Even if it was a very clear night, it would be difficult and dangerous to travel in the dark by starlight. Putting down that flashlight has to be explained- unless it died on them and it was intentionally dropped (and even that sounds reckless, you would hope to get a few flickers out of it after turning it off for a while in the cold). If it was left as a beacon, I have to think they had some other way to see.
It could be that some combination of Dyatlov, Kolmogorova, and Slobodin (and i dont think its a given they all set out together) headed back to the tent at moonrise when they could get their bearings, timing seems reasonable.
Nigel Evans
10-05-2017 15:22 (GMT)
@MB - good point. The autopsy said that they died 6-8 hours after their last meal and there is no sign that they had a meal in the tent except for some limited snacking on brisket (evidence of rinds). But then they couldn't have cooked a meal inside anyway so they might have just snacked on cold food only - biscuits and stuff. So whether time of death is before or after moonrise is difficult to ascertain?
MB
10-05-2017 14:37 (GMT)
@Nigel But the moon didn't begin to rise until after 2 in the morning. Unless the timeline of when they fled the tent is wrong, the moon wouldnt have helped them.
Nigel Evans
10-05-2017 14:10 (GMT)
@MB - I'm sticking with SZ's photos being genuine so what happens at the tent is that a GLO (and a pretty big one, maybe as big as a house or even a barn) parks itself outside the tent.
@Nigel All true, but you have to factor in the time component. I'm no meteorology expert, but perhaps its possible that a storm front blew up the mountain and would have passed over within an hour or so, dropping the temperature vastly. So this weird storm blows in (scary in itself) basically engulfing them in clouds, theres lightning and thunder all around, making it light enough to see by, something happens in the tent (perhaps a lightning strike and/or hail storm) and they flee for shelter. An hour or so later theyve gotten to the cedar, the storm moves past and its pitch black, so they climb the tree to try to spot the beacon flashlight or perhaps monitor the storm. I just cant get passed those flashlights being left, particularly the second one. That was probably their single most important survival tool at that moment. Imo, they must have somehow had enough light to see by when they set down that second flashlight.
Nigel Evans
10-05-2017 10:22 (GMT)
@Lightning - good to hear someone is reading this stuff The more i consider the ravine injuries the more i realise the strangeness of them. Extensive fractures without bruising, or burst ear drums/lungs or broken limbs not even a collar bone, weird. Plus the asymmetry, SZ+LD chest fractures and nothing else, NTB skull fractures and nothing else. Imo it fits better with a localised "soft crushing impact" than barotrauma.
@MB - SZ's photos and the eye witness account from the ski party 50km south would seem to suggest a relatively clear night. That could have changed later on, the three heads photo does indicate a lot of horizontal snow - blizzard. I don't think you'd abandon the tent because of hail, just prop up the tents's sides with ski poles and stuff to insulate yourself from the impacts. The investigation included mountain experts who would have spotted the signs i think. Also they climbed the cedar to monitor the tent area, like they were waiting on something there to go away. Good point about visibility but presumably they weren't in a blizzard/whiteout or no point in climbing the tree.
MB
09-05-2017 20:49 (GMT)
Another virtue of thundersnow- it lights up the night to the point where its like gloomy daytime (the low clouds/fog create an eerie low light effect). That would explain why they ignored the tent flashlight- they didnt need it, they could see. They placed the second flashlight as a beacon and were willing to move on without a flashlight, because they could see.
MB
09-05-2017 20:39 (GMT)
I like the thundersnow theory. We had a blizzard in Chicago a few years ago and there was thundersnow for over an hour, it lit up the sky as though there were firetrucks everywhere, red and blue lights under very low clouds. I believe it tends to happen around freezing but itself produces severe wind chills. That would line up with the footprints.
I would be terrified to be out of doors when that thing struck.
@Nigel Evans Yes, i'm aware of the positive lightning. I've read all of this page comments . Also positive lightning is responsible for "bolt from the blue".
Nigel Evans
09-05-2017 19:05 (GMT)
@Lightning - yes i've considered most of that already, ctrl F this page for thundersnow / positive polarity lightning. The advantage with the "roof collapse" theory is that the explosive event doesn't have to be close, just near enough to induce the first collapse. If the roof was unstable then maybe a thunderclap half a mile away would do it. The explosion only theory is less probable as it has to be quite close by.
@Nigel Evans Could be, because in the autopsy report i didn't find anything about ear drum rupture. If the blast wave was strong enough to rupture the ribs it also could rupture the ear drums. Maybe the examiner didn't inspect eardrums. But why if he said that such a damage can only be result of an explosion? And why nobody examined the birds, their cause of death.
Nigel Evans
09-05-2017 15:43 (GMT)
But the "roof falling in" theory doesn't explain the dead birds, so you'd still need an explosion but now it can be an aerial explosion at some distance from the den, and just big enough to shake the ravine and bring down the first fall.
Nigel Evans
09-05-2017 14:54 (GMT)
Just thought of an alternative theory for the ravine deaths.
I've considered before now the question "what if the roof of the den simply collapsed on them?" and i've discounted this theory because surely it must have resulted in broken limbs the lack of which is one of the primary facts to resolve in the ravine event. What could fracture a rib cage (three times in LD's case) and not break limbs?
But what if there was a partial collapse followed shortly by bigger one? I.e. the ravine had a depth of 4 meters, so assuming that the den is a metre high (or so, just big enough to sit inside). Then say a metre of snow falls in on them, although it would weigh approx a tonne because it's just above their heads it simply pushes them off their seats and fills in (packs) the gaps between them as they wrestle with it. Then the rest of the roof above falls in. This is two meters thick and possibly wider (2 tonnes or more?) and importantly has a metre of space below it in order to accelerate before impact. This hits them like a sledgehammer but the limbs are protected by the snow around them resulting only in crushing injuries to the head and chest. This would be a good explanation for SZ, LD and NTB, for AK i'd tweak the theory that he managed to get his head above the first fall before the second snapped his neck.
As to why the roof fell in? SZ was an experienced builder of snow dens of course so it's unlikely that it was built incorrectly. But there are several indications that the temperature of the snow was being raised nearer to it's melt point. It seems plausible that this weakened the structure of the snow above them. N.B. NTB was found with his jacket unzipped and his gloves in a pocket.
Nigel Evans
09-05-2017 13:30 (GMT)
@Lightning - thanks, i'd agree that military accident or BL are the only theories that work for me. A problem with the military theory is that the ravine injuries seem to rule out the involvement of high explosive as blast lung is the most common HE injury in survivors (due to the supersonic wave) and the autopsies didn't report any. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blast_injury
Lightning
09-05-2017 12:34 (GMT)
@Nigel Evans Yours , because it considers all the facts. ( So called cold spot, footsteps didn't dissapear, type of injury- barotrauma, photos, eyewitness accounts- another hiking group 50 km away saw at DIP lights and heard a bang).
Another theories like infrasound only explains why they ran out of tent but not the injuries and ignores the eyewitness acounts and photos. Same with the avalanche theory and the others.
Could be a millitary test, but unlikely. So two possibilites- millitary test or BL.
Nigel Evans
09-05-2017 08:08 (GMT)
@Lightning - what's your favourite theory?
Lightning
08-05-2017 22:10 (GMT)
It would be interesting if someone creates a poll asking which theory people support.
Nigel Evans
08-05-2017 08:52 (GMT)
@mkk - 1. there have been several winter expeditions to the DP since the tragedy and they all report that it is impossible to replicate the persistence of the footsteps, that is they cannot make them last for more than 24/48 hours before the wind blows them away. The original footsteps lasted for 4 weeks before being found. One theory to explain this is that the snow was much less cold on that night and much closer to it's melt point. This together with subsequent refreezing explains how they became harder. It also fits in with the hot spot, the hardness of the snow on the tent and the signs of the ravine snow covering the bodies having softened and refrozen. I'm heartened that last video i posted about Hessdalen mentioned that with one of the visible events that lasted for minutes, an object at the same location had been transmitting at radar frequencies for over four hours. So this fits well with the microwave theory, that the whole area is bathed in microwave radiation across many frequencies and this wrt the dpi has the effect of raising the temperature of the snow closer to it's melt point. It might explain why although most of them didn't have footwear there is little sign of frostbite (save for the 2 yuris and that doesn't fit with it being frostbite imo). 2. Apparently in radio terms the human body acts as a lossy dipole with a resonant frequency that varies between vhf and uhf depending on size and gender.
So it's possible that this radiation could have an effect on ID's posture at death, i'd guess at electrical rather than heat energy as the muscles have to maintain the pose until the body freezes and there no sign of body heat melting the snow as in the case of RS.
Or he could just have died whilst trying to adjust his clothing of course
mkk
08-05-2017 02:36 (GMT)
@Nigel--"with the microwave field debilitating them and bringing them to their knees as they try and ascend into it..." Any possibility that might account for Dyatlov's vaguely pugilistic-stance without noticeable surface burns? If microwaves (depending on the length?) heat muscles before surface tissue. (Not sure I'm understanding microwaves and their effects correctly)
Nigel Evans
07-05-2017 22:58 (GMT)
Good video on Hessdalen suggesting (imo) that lights and ufos are different versions of the same thing. Don't miss the end from 39.00, nice "string of pearls" and what seems to be the current scientific knowledge. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKlwlYiXuic
As to their cause lets not forget that our science cannot currently explain them. So we're in the domain of conjecture. Empirically it's my guess is that any atmospheric phenomena that creates an electron avalanche can result in ball lightning - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron_avalanche , once you have the ionisation then the effects follow from it.
There is clearly a connection with the frequency of witnessed accounts with locality e.g. Hessdalen and Dyatlov so some ground effect might be involved, possibly metal ore, e.g. Hessdalen is a very ore rich area. But there is conjecture of some other phenomena - a geo motor creating earthquake lights etc. Lets not forget Tunguska is impossible to explain with a bolide only theory.
As to your question wrt cloudless night/no storm don't forget we're talking about macro atmospheric events here, people have been killed by lightning on a sunny day with hardly a cloud in the sky "a bolt out of the blue" - http://www.iflscience.com/environment/world-record-longest-ever-lightning-bolt-shocks-scientists/ n.b. this the longest currently recorded, nature has probably exceeded this by an order of magnitude.
But wrt the DPI, i think the evidence is strong that a BL event (as photographed by SZ and reported by another ski party) injured the two Yuris forcing the group to withdraw to the forest in the expectation of returning quickly. This didn't happen and subsequently the two Yuris die of their injuries. The ravine deaths are caused either by ball lightning exploding or a powerful lightning bolt hitting the stream and creating an explosion in the snowbank. The deaths of the remaining three are due to cold with the microwave field debilitating them and bringing them to their knees as they try and ascend into it (they expire within 330 meters of each other with facial scratches, signs of vomiting).
Lightning
07-05-2017 10:44 (GMT)
@Nigel Evans. But the problem with the Handel's Maser-Soliton Theory of ball lightning doesn't explain how it can form without storm. There are several reports that it has occured in cloudless night without any storm. http://amasci.com/weird/unusual/bl.html Several reports on this webpage.
My favourite is the Handel Maser-Soliton theory. My theory (and perhaps of others i don't know) is that (wrt the dpi) the high winds reproduced horizontally what happens vertically in thunderstorms, i.e. creating seperation of charge between the clouds and the ground. But instead of this discharging as lightning the wind vortices move this ionisation in effect reproducing a magnetron generating microwaves which bounce between the earth and the sky as in a waveguide. These waves interfere with each other and by a process similar to aquatic rogue waves a soliton forms that is persistent.
But the answer lies in the future.
Good point about the burnt clothes, but that might be answered by the human bodies acting as aerials with a resonant frequency creating very localised heat on and within the body.
I wouldn't expect the bamboo pole to be scorched the internal moisture just has to expand and it will split.
Rol88
06-05-2017 16:30 (GMT)
@Nigel Evans: I have never heard of this GLO microwave theory you keep on referring to . I only read about : 1- The chemical theory 2- The plasma theory which seems to be the most pertinent . I also read that some Israeli guys were able to generate some micro GLOs ( which lasted few microseconds) by putting a block of Silicium in a modified microwave. That doesn't mean that GLOs are actually generating microwaves...Or do they ? Please enlighten us.I would appreciate you tell us more about it Anyway IF it was the case why the damp fabrics of the clothes and the leather of the boots- which both retain moisture thus making them heat fast when exposed to microwaves -left inside the tent were intact ? Also in reference to the broken bamboo pole , it did not display any scorched patch . Unlike the burnt clothes found on some of the hikers BTW. But it could have been electrical burns from lightning as well sustained under the treeline .
Nigel Evans
06-05-2017 12:54 (GMT)
@Rol88 - coming back to you wrt the electrical burns in the tent and there being no sign of burning on the tent or it's contents.
What if their injuries were not electrical burns but microwave burns? - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_burn This explains how they were injured in the tent without any burning elsewhere. The tent fabric would perhaps have got hot but not enough to discolour as it would take longer to heat up being colder and with a covering of snow, the damp cavities within the bamboo pole heated quickly and split it. Perhaps the radiation was only intense at one end of the tent as the BL passed near, just affecting the pole and two occupants who in effect shielded the others. Now you have your reason for cutting the tent open and getting everyone out as fast as possible.
First i am curious what the religions of member of the group were if known? Second is there a way to post two pictures? There are 2 pictures on cora hull website of an angled looking object and i noticed how very similiar they look to the black knight satellite. Thank u
mkk
05-05-2017 20:44 (GMT)
@Nigel-- Impressive internet searching; thanks!!
Nigel Evans
05-05-2017 10:33 (GMT)
@testinger - the book "Dyatlov Pass Keeps Its Secrets" lists all it's references at the back (121) virtually all of them are links to Russian web sites.
Nigel Evans
05-05-2017 10:19 (GMT)
@testinger - sorry i mixed up you and MB
Nigel Evans
05-05-2017 10:18 (GMT)
@MB - yes that's a good source of original transcripts.
Thanks, Nigel, for clarifying state of flashlights as found: 1. Flashlight at tent, switch in OFF position, working. 2. Flashlight some way down the slope, switch in ON position, not working. https://sites.google.com/site/hibinaud/ is exactly what I was looking for, but I am also dependent on Google Translate. It seems that Chrome's built in translation option does not return the same results as Google's manual translate tool: https://translate.google.com For Example: that 100 meters below the tent was found a flashlight turned on with battery burned that belonged to someone who died of the participants group. Becomes: that about 100 meters below the tent was found an electric flashlight in the switched on state with a burnt out battery belonging to one of the participants of the deceased group. which I prefer, because it is less ambiguous.
Nigel Evans
04-05-2017 19:37 (GMT)
@MB - just to confirm i'm talking about two flashlights :- 1.left on the tent switched off. 2. the other left down the slope switched on with a drained battery.
N.B. There seems to be some difference of opinion from members of the rescue party as to (2) distance from the tent 100 or 400 meters.
Imo (1) was the toilet flashlight that they didn't have time to collect. and (2) was deliberately placed as a beacon for the return to the tent.
As you say it's an important pivotal point, imo the facts point to that they had to flee the tent immediately but from a threat that didn't pursue them down the slope and that they expected to go away enabling their return, hence the beacon.
MB
04-05-2017 16:40 (GMT)
Nigel thats an interesting point- whether that tent flashlight was left on or off is a critical point either way. Consider:
-If it was turned on when found, it was obviously left as a beacon. No other reason to leave a perfectly good flashlight in the dead of night. -If it was turned off, you're probably right, it was left there in case anyone needed to leave the tent in the night. The only alternative would be that it was placed there turned off out of hand as they fled the tent, which is crazy. -Now if it WAS turned off, why didnt anybody think to pick it up knowing that 'thats where we keep the flashlight' as they are leaving the tent. That gives you an important indication of their state of mind, quite aside from abandoning their boots and clothes so abruptly. Just grabbing that flashlight would be a high priority in the dead of night, frightened by something. But nobody did. Either they fled in such a panic (which the tracks dont support) that they didnt have 2 seconds to grab a critical source of light, or *something about the tent made it impossible or unsafe*. That would perhaps support the fire/smoke filled tent theory.
-Now if we suppose the flashlight was left on, it was surely placed there and left intentionally. If someone was willing to do that, why werent they willing to reach in the tent and grab whatever gear was at hand? You have a flashlight, there are gaping holes in the tent, you stop to put the flashlight on top of the tent (obviously with the knowledge youre about to leave the tent vicinity), but you dont think to grab a blanket or valenki or just some random stuff that would be in arms reach? You have the presence of mind and critical seconds to place a flashlight, but not to do anything else.
Doesnt resolve much, but whether that flashlight was on or off sends your down two different theory paths I think.
Nigel Evans
04-05-2017 16:17 (GMT)
@mkk - apparently the newspaper - "Tagil Worker" that published the eye witness account of the colliery manager of the "lights and explosions" got into trouble because military testing did take place and was top secret of course and definately not for reporting. Which hints at the paranoia of those times, so it's easy to see how management would play safe and assume everything was a state secret even if it wasn't.
Playing with google translate i get multiple versions of "выгоревшей," as burnt out or faded. So i'll assume they mean a discharged battery unless any Russian speakers tell me otherwise.
Nigel Evans
04-05-2017 15:56 (GMT)
Thinking about flashlights it suddenly occurred to me what the purpose of the other flashlight found on the tent outside could be.
Perhaps it was for trips to the toilet in the night.
The first rule of trekking is that if you need to go to the toilet "for a dump" then you take a shovel to dig a hole and put some decent distance between you and the campsite.
So if you want to do this in the middle of the night when everyone is asleep then rather than have people searching for a flashlight that may have been placed anywhere by the last person to use it, it is kept at the agreed place preferably just outside the entrance so that people are less disturbed when you turn it on.
That's why it was found on top of 10cm of snow, as people used it it was placed back on top of the snow.
Apparently all seven of the felt boots (valenki) were found placed along the side of the tent that didn't suffer the slits. It makes sense that as part of the same "toilet procedure" they would keep these boots at the bottom of their designated "bed" (i'm assuming that they slept tranversely and all in the same direction to easily reach them in the dark. Then they would step over their sleeping comrades, open the entrance and find the "toilet flashlight" outside ready to use. Doubly important of course in whiteout conditions. It may be even that they turned the torch on and left it at the tent illuminating the snow and only went away as far as they could still see it.
The fact that these felt boots organised down the side of the tent were left behind (with this torch) really does indicate the speed at which they abandoned the tent. You would only need a couple of seconds to reach down and pick them up.
Also wrt my last post does anyone speak Russian? I'd love a more detailed translation of "burned battery", burnt or discharged? Microwaves?
mkk
04-05-2017 15:45 (GMT)
@Nigel-- Sure, I agree to those points. There's no way everything was totally square and above-board with the investigation. I didn't mean to imply that. I was speaking more to the idea that "the government knows the real truth and they're hiding it." (Not that I'm accusing you of promoting that idea, but I've read posts that seem to say that.)
There's a distinct feel of uncertainty about the whole thing. Authorities seemed confused and edgy, uncertain which information to suppress and which to allow. If they were determined to cover it up completely, they would have. They would have gotten in there before the amateur rescue crews arrived, wiped it clean, and invented a plausible story for the whole thing. At the very least, they would have prepared a reasonable explanation for the deaths and then stuck to it.
In mystery novels, the plot is often made more circuitous and involved because innocent characters are hiding something and inadvertently thwart the efforts of the detectives. Weirdly, the government efforts at concealment have a similar feel about them. With a bit of tongue-in-cheek, I'm attributing it to the habitual MO communist authorities, but it may be something much more interesting.
Nigel Evans
04-05-2017 12:51 (GMT)
@MB - putting this link - https://sites.google.com/site/hibinaud/home/dopros-svidetela-atmanaki through google translate gives :- "in addition, that 100 meters below the tent was found a flashlight turned on with battery burned that belonged to someone who died of the participants group. "
Hence the view that it was left at that position to assist the groups return.
Nigel Evans
04-05-2017 08:10 (GMT)
@mkk - two reasons to believe in a coverup :- 1. Ivanov was told to desist from investigating fireballs and to remove all evidence for them from his report. 2. If the photos attributed to SZ are genuine then there MUST be more, YK's camera was on a tripod.
It could be an "innocent" coverup, i.e. middle ranking officers assuming that the fireballs were man made and playing safe with their jobs. Or otherwise.
mkk
04-05-2017 00:55 (GMT)
It's as if the government's knee-jerk response was to squelch too many questions, but they didn't really know what they were supposed to be covering up.
An imaginary conversation high up in government some time afterward: "Why did you go to so much trouble to try to cover it up?" "Well, if you'd done it, wouldn't you want it covered up?" "But no one did it--it was just lightning!" "How was I to know that? I was just doing my job!"
testinger
04-05-2017 00:51 (GMT)
Thanks, MB, for pointing out my error. I am sorry. The flashlights were in the off position when found, as stated clearly here: http://dyatlovpass.com/tent On the top of the tent under 5-10 cm of snow lay Dyatlov's flashlight (made in China). Boris Slobtzov picked it up and turned it on - the flashlight was in working condition. Second flashlight was found switched off and battery discharged 400m down the slope.
So that leaves only the lack of footprints, and the fact that the hikers built a fire where it would reveal their location, as arguments against human attacker(s). The additional footprints might have been missed, if they were only near the tent, and the attackers skied in the hikers' tracks. Perhaps the reason for the the climbing of the cedar tree was to keep a lookout and alert the others if the attackers were coming. The attackers may have slept in the tent and cut their way out in the morning, simply because it was easier than going through the door. And there are many other attack scenarios that would result in the tent being cut from the inside. Imagination runs wild.
MB
03-05-2017 19:28 (GMT)
testinger, thats a great thought on the flashlights, but the flashlight on the tent was found turned off and still working by the searchers. The one further down the slope was supposedly found turned off as well, but wasnt working (perhaps it was thrown away in frustration).
MB
03-05-2017 19:13 (GMT)
I find it interesting that Slobodin and Kolevatov had matches... and not the two that died by the cedar tree fire. I think that suggests they intentionally split the matches, and very likely at the cedar tree. The Kolevatov group continued down the slope and fell into a ravine. Slobodin perhaps went back to the tent to gather supplies (inadvertently carrying off the matches) he falls, hits his head, and freezes. Doroshenko and Krivonischenko freeze to death, Kolmogorova and Dubinina split the clothing of the dead and try to make for the tent, dying in route.
Nigel Evans
02-05-2017 21:48 (GMT)
@testinger - but you have several eye witness accounts and photographs already of the dyatlov lights from that era?
I'm surprised that with the Hessdalen lights, given they have been so repeatable that they're not sending up drones with cameras and sensors, seems an obvious step. Unless high winds are a common associated factor of course...
Personally i'd like to know the microwave profile as you get close to these lights.
testinger
02-05-2017 21:12 (GMT)
Since the hikers, seemingly acting carefully to allow themselves to find their way back to the tent, left one flashlight on at the tent, and a second one ~420m down the slope ( http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-flashlight.jpg ), and since they built a fire at the edge of the woods, and since no tracks other than theirs were found, they were probably not fleeing a person, or people. Since whatever caused them to leave the tent, caused them to leave immediately, without the few seconds delay required to put on their boots or to take turns going out through the door, the threat must have been perceived to be certainly presently deadly. Furthermore, once outside the tent, the threat was such as to prevent them from going back inside the tent for any gear. Even a nausea and panic inducing infra sound event, as severe as the worst flu, or worse, would probably allow some of the hikers to get their boots. If the tent had only filled up with smoke from something burning, they would have seen, once outside, that the tent was not on fire, and waited for the smoke to dissipate before going back inside. A single, brief ball lightning event, probably would not be enough to cause them to flee without footwear, but if there was occurring a persistent ball lightning, for some reason attracted to the tent, or multiple ball lightnings, attracted to, or even arising within, the tent, that could have been surprising enough, and unfamiliar enough, that everyone there was sufficiently terrified, and or possibly even literally shocked. But the ball lightning theory seems testable, by placing detectors at the location of the tent, for the duration of a winter, or even for several years. Since ball lightning is visible, could you not just use a camera and some software which looks for glowing circular shapes, filtering out the sun and moon? The cameras and a computer could be solar powered, and the data could be offloaded wirelessly, no? Probably I am naive, and missing the reasons why this would not work, but it is terrible, not knowing.
Nigel Evans
02-05-2017 16:32 (GMT)
@Roll88 - yes i wouldn't be surprised if the Soviets were trying to induce and control the phenomena, i.e. weaponise it and wanted ground observers. Then it all went wrong and they ordered Ivanov to remove fireballs from his report. But i think the danger with the DPI lights is due to it's composition which suggests differences with Hessdalen. Interesting section at the beginning of this video about treetops - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0tbOLtv_mI Less interesting afterwards.
Rol88
02-05-2017 15:18 (GMT)
@mkk great news ! @Nigel Evans : What a coincidence ! Few days ago I posted you a message suggesting the GLO could have been man made . At least it does give some explanation why the hikers seemed to have been literally ''targeted'' by a natural phenomenon . What is striking is the fact that in the Norwegian locality of Hessdalen which is at the same latitude with Mount Kholyat , GLOs are very frequently observed but unlike on mount Kholyat there has never been any casualties (despite the fact the Hessdalen region does have some population unlike Mt Kholyat )
User45
02-05-2017 12:10 (GMT)
What a coincidence. Published at the same exact minute. Lol. Thanks.
User45
02-05-2017 12:09 (GMT)
@nigel I'm sorry, but where exactly at Camera should I look at? I can not find a picture titled ''three head''
@User45 - checkout the "three heads" photo under CAMERAS.
User45
02-05-2017 08:42 (GMT)
A question; exactly what picture is showing the supposed ball of lightning?
User45
02-05-2017 08:06 (GMT)
'' In the researcher's opinion, the version of the group's having ties with the KGB is also supported by the fact that only four of the ten rolls of film from all the cameras have remained and it is unknown what happened to the rest. ''
very similar write-up: http://www.our-russia.com/22072016234636/title-not-yet
Anyone have information whether this proposed "almanac" has been published?
Nigel Evans
30-04-2017 16:14 (GMT)
@Rol88 - yes it is possible that the GLO's were man made, as stated before military hardware like parachute flares/mines (or something like that) does fit a lot of the evidence. Except of course that there were no signs of military hardware. But it was extremely windy so could have blown away.
Wrt the intoxication theory they demonstrate quite logical ordered behaviour, built a fire and a den, laid out the two Yuris side by side showing respect, SZ found trying to write in his notebook.
Nigel Evans
30-04-2017 16:00 (GMT)
@Rol88 - I'm afraid i'm going to have to challenge your facts here :-
From wikipedia :-
12-year-old Yury Kuntsevich, who would later become head of the Yekaterinburg-based Dyatlov Foundation (see below), attended five of the hikers' funerals, and recalls their skin had a "deep brown tan".[2] Another group of hikers (about 50 kilometers south of the incident) reported that they saw strange orange spheres in the night sky to the north on the night of the incident.[2] Similar spheres were observed in Ivdel and adjacent areas continually during the period from February to March 1959, by various independent witnesses (including the meteorology service and the military).[2]
So the coffins were not closed. N.B. the eye witness accounts of the lights include explosions.
My understanding of the pilot's statement was that he thought he saw two bodies lying outside the tent before it was found. Not that it was surrounded by soldiers, can you point to were this is stated?
The boot cover could have been mislaid by the rescue group or mansi hunters that kept some kit when they returned from service. It's not a strong piece of evidence.
Rol88
30-04-2017 15:16 (GMT)
@Nigel Evans :Anyway these supposed GLO seem to be too ''intelligent'' in pursuing and burning the hikers. Have it ever occured to you it MIGHT have been experimental man made GLOs tested as weapons ? KGB may have cynically sent these youth as guinnea pigs or something went out very wrong ... Another interesting theory which was not explored thoroughly : Food intoxication due to contamination by hallucinogenic ergot or some other substance. I don't know if any test was performed on the food they had before the events break up ... It would very much explain their erratic behaviour in the night .
Rol88
30-04-2017 14:56 (GMT)
Nigel Evans : The replacement of the prosecutor, the interest of 2 presidents and the ''story'' of the high officers are relevant enough to point out against your GLO theory , simply because they make you suspect a simpler and more brutal death of the hikers ie military or KGB liquidation and cover-up : Let me put it this way , if someone gets electrocuted by a lightning in a trip to the mountains there will be a very straightforward and short inquiry , no officer would be demoted, the verdict would be cristal clear , no president would follow the inquiry because it is a casual accident and everybody would be allowed to see the body and pay respect, even in the USSR. .In this case what did we see instead ? the 1st prosecutor was decommissioned days later ( Forget about Ivanov's declaration he was the servant of the System and would write exactly what he is told ) , 2 presidents found the case strange enough to closely follow the case, the bodies were delivered in sealed metal coffins with no permission to open them ,an officer comes to the funeral of Dubinina and tells a story about a GLO which did not hurt anyone ... And when you add to all these points the fact that a pilot saw from his plane ( and reported it ) the tent surrounded by soldiers days before the rescuer party ( who BTW found a boot cover , an item used only by soldiers) among the items in the tent and the fact that soldiers came with a Geiger device to test radioactivity on the corpses one must admit the Soviet authorities knew - at least partially- beforehand what happened to the hikers. And what happened could very much be something more than a casual accident due to natural meteorological phenomena such as lightning or GLO strike(s) otherwise all the aforementioned measures taken by the the Soviet authorities would not have been necessary....
Nigel Evans
29-04-2017 12:34 (GMT)
Rol88 - answering your against points
1- No scorched fabric in the tent so how come 2 hikers were badly burned by GLO and the tent did not display even one mm2 of burned fabric ? Perhaps they were burnt outside the tent then? I don't see how this is argues againt the GLO theory, just a detail.
2- The fact they left the tent in good order : if a GLO turns into a ''roller'' and heads to your tent at the speed of 5-6 m/s , or even explodes few meters away, well, you won't leave your tent -barefoot !- in good order... But again, Dyatlov left his jacket and torch behind, next to the tent which doesn't plead much for the '' organized temporary retreat '' ... Perhaps there weren't any rollers. The GLO theory doesn't depend on them, maybe there were two aerial objects an hour or so apart.
3- GLOs , according to many testimonies, are limited phenomena in time (few sec to few min max) and number ( usually one GLO per observation) Most of the encounters with GLOs leave the witnesses unharmed even if in some few cases one witness is burned or hurt, It is extremely unlikely a GLO 'strikes'' the tent or next to it burning 2 hikers , another GLO or lightning pursue the hikers to the cedar tree and burn its apex then again explodes in the den, thus generating the horrible lesions of Thibeaux ,Zolotaryov and Dubinina . If this incident was due to orbs , then one must assume these orbs or GLOs were not natural phenomena striking or moving randomly but that some malevolent intelligence was behind these '' surgical targeted strikes'' This is a good point, the ability of GLOs to target people is well documented and can only be properly explained in the future when there is a proper scientific explanation for them (not currently). I would guess at the metal content of mammals together with their electric nervous system interfering with the "microwave standing wave system" such that they act as attractions. But just my guess, until science can answer what these objects are then we're left with only the empirical fact that GLOs do exhibit targeting behaviour.
4- As for what the officer confided to the victim's parents it could very much be a story to divert their suspiscions from a KGB ''operation'' . I lived once in a country run by a foreign intelligence service and I know what I am talking about : in order to keep people away of their dirty deeds and divert their attention elsewhere , they would make up now and then a new bogus '' story '' a scandal, such as : singers or celebrities caught practicing group sex , a new satanist sect in the country etc and so on .... the story of the officer could very much be a fairy tale .... I refer you to my previous post, you have to explain why they were afraid to remain at the tent but unafraid to light a fire 1500 meres away.
5- The fact President Khrutchev is said to have personally followed the inquiry So did Boris Yeltsin. I don't see how this is against the GLO theory?
6- the 1st chief prosecutor was decommissioned days after he opened the inquiry if they were struck by lightning or ''normal'' GLO s so why all this paranoid secrecy ... Not relevant to the GLO theory imo.
Imo Soviet authorities know much more than what they are willing to say . They are at least partially responsible to what happened to the hikers. The extent of their responsibility is yet to be defined . We will never know what really happened because some of the clues are still kept secret , some others were purposely flawed . I heard Keith Mcloskey on Youtube and he spoke a lot about the culture of secrecy in USSR . Some reminiscence is still lingering in Russian Federation until now.... For sure there was a culture of secrecy, but not relevant to the GLO/not GLO question imo.
Nigel Evans
29-04-2017 12:17 (GMT)
gtulloch/Rol88 - one of the fascinating questions of the dpi is what threat could have made them leave the shelter of the tent (that is afraid to stay there) but unafraid to light a fire 1500 meters away?" This seems to rule out many types of threat, basically from any intelligence be it human or non human (yetis/aliens etc). This single fact very strongly suggests some form of natural threat such as the one in SZ's photographs - presumed to be ball lightning. This was the conclusion of Ivanov the head of the investigation and the opinion of the local mansi people.
Rol88
29-04-2017 11:31 (GMT)
The teargas theory is interesting it would have been easy to toss a tergas bomb in the tent from the tent's entrance but again doesn't fit the absence of footsteps other than the hikers on the snow. It seems that 2 of t he group went out to relieve themselves , maybe Zolotaryov and Thibeaux because they were better dressed. By the way did anyone notice the tent entrance does NEVER show on any Photo taken ? A very strange detail.....
gtulloch
29-04-2017 08:55 (GMT)
@Roll88 I thought about the gunpoint idea as well, but the rips from the interior of the tent didn't fit well to the theory. It also doesn't explain all the rest of the findings as thoroughly.
gtulloch
29-04-2017 08:50 (GMT)
@Roll88~I didn't mention ball lightning. I suspect a chemical gas, like tear gas in the tent and everyone evacuates, unable to see and breath, thus extremely vulnerable. Several of the bodies had bled from the nose and lips, and two had fluid in their lungs, and the two that were outside the tent either ran from the attackers or were the attackers.
Rol88
29-04-2017 07:35 (GMT)
@ The search party found an unusual item among the hikers's in the tent : A military boot cover. Yuri Yudin said it did not belong to any of the hikers. It seems that soldiers were behind what happened or at least ''visited '' the tent before the searching party...
Rol88
29-04-2017 07:23 (GMT)
@gtulloch the ball lightning theory does not explain everything. If they left the tent ''in good order'' then it looks as if someone drove them out of it under gunpoint. The only thing is that there is no evidence of extra footsteps on the snow but again it happened in USSR and this is what they want us to believe !
gtulloch
29-04-2017 05:26 (GMT)
Tear gas-When people are hit at close range or are severely exposed, eye injuries involving scarring of the cornea can lead to a permanent loss in visual acuity
gtulloch
29-04-2017 05:23 (GMT)
From one of the people in the party or from someone on the outside. I feel the theories involving either the CIA or KGB to be most plausible as to the why. The party may have even been blinded, thus they could not find the way back to their supplies. The possible removal of tongue and eyes would maybe indicate an effort to hide evidence of chemical burns.
gtulloch
29-04-2017 05:19 (GMT)
An idea about the tent. Question what would cause them to leave by ripping the sides of the tent not through the entrance? Smoke? Tear gas? Tear gas works by irritating mucous membranes in the eyes, nose, mouth and lungs, and causes crying, sneezing, coughing, difficulty breathing, pain in the eyes, and temporary blindness. Which would explain cutting the sides of the tent to get out, the burns on the victims, leaving with only underclothes and the subsequent disorientation of the party. Where did it come from?
Rol88
28-04-2017 20:44 (GMT)
@Nigel Evans :Look, I really like the GLO( or UFO ?) theory but it doesn't explain all the facts. Some facts do plead for and some, but others against .For : 1- The 4m diam solidified ice surface near the tent 2- The camera of YK on the make shift tripod 3- the broken bamboo ski pole 4- to some -limited- extent the -damaged- film of Semen Zolotaryov showing lights on a dark background but again the film was damaged after 3 months under melting snow and many consider it worthless 5- the burn lesions on the bodies of Krivo and Doro 6- The testimonies of the other hikers group who saw light orbs. 7- The officer who came to the funeral and ''confided'' to the victims parents that soldiers camping there were ''attacked'' by orbs , hid in the tent and survived. Against :1- No scorched fabric in the tent so how come 2 hikers were badly burned by GLO and the tent did not display even one mm2 of burned fabric ? 2- The fact they left the tent in good order : if a GLO turns into a ''roller'' and heads to your tent at the speed of 5-6 m/s , or even explodes few meters away, well, you won't leave your tent -barefoot !- in good order... But again, Dyatlov left his jacket and torch behind, next to the tent which doesn't plead much for the '' organized temporary retreat '' ... 3- GLOs , according to many testimonies, are limited phenomena in time (few sec to few min max) and number ( usually one GLO per observation) Most of the encounters with GLOs leave the witnesses unharmed even if in some few cases one witness is burned or hurt, It is extremely unlikely a GLO 'strikes'' the tent or next to it burning 2 hikers , another GLO or lightning pursue the hikers to the cedar tree and burn its apex then again explodes in the den, thus generating the horrible lesions of Thibeaux ,Zolotaryov and Dubinina . If this incident was due to orbs , then one must assume these orbs or GLOs were not natural phenomena striking or moving randomly but that some malevolent intelligence was behind these '' surgical targeted strikes'' 4- As for what the officer confided to the victim's parents it could very much be a story to divert their suspiscions from a KGB ''operation'' . I lived once in a country run by a foreign intelligence service and I know what I am talking about : in order to keep people away of their dirty deeds and divert their attention elsewhere , they would make up now and then a new bogus '' story '' a scandal, such as : singers or celebrities caught practicing group sex , a new satanist sect in the country etc and so on .... the story of the officer could very much be a fairy tale .... 5- The fact President Khrutchev is said to have personally followed the inquiry 6- the 1st chief prosecutor was decommissioned days after he opened the inquiry if they were struck by lightning or ''normal'' GLO s so why all this paranoid secrecy ... Imo Soviet authorities know much more than what they are willing to say . They are at least partially responsible to what happened to the hikers. The extent of their responsibility is yet to be defined . We will never know what really happened because some of the clues are still kept secret , some others were purposely flawed . I heard Keith Mcloskey on Youtube and he spoke a lot about the culture of secrecy in USSR . Some reminiscence is still lingering in Russian Federation until now....
Nigel Evans
28-04-2017 15:39 (GMT)
@Rol88 - "Was it the observation of special phenomena in the sky or contact with US spies ?"
Well you don't need a second camera to make contact with US spies, his mission was to observe special phenomena in the sky and photograph it. The photos suggest that is what he did.
Lightning
28-04-2017 15:38 (GMT)
@ROL88 It didn't hit the tent directly. There was a cold spot some distance away. A place where snow had melt and freeze again, diameter about 4 meters. As Nigel Evans stated before.
Rol88
28-04-2017 14:54 (GMT)
Sorry guys posted it twice !
Rol88
28-04-2017 14:52 (GMT)
@Lightning : If the tent was struck with lightning they would have barely found its ashes ! It would had immediately set the tent ablaze !
Rol88
28-04-2017 14:52 (GMT)
@Lightning : If the tent was struck with lightning they would have barely found its ashes ! It would had immediately set the tent ablaze !
Rol88
28-04-2017 14:46 (GMT)
User45 : Good point Thibeaux promised his Mom it would be his last expedition as if it were his last mission ? Nigel Evans Why the secrecy .? Almost certainly because the Soviet auhorities unofficially commissioned some of the hikers a special mission. Was it the observation of special phenomena in the sky or contact with US spies ? Again we will never know . One thing is for sure , KGB was behind and watching closely . After all the hike was dedicated to the 21st Meeting of the USSR Communist Party...
Lightning
28-04-2017 09:51 (GMT)
Maybe they weren't running out of tent because i was taught at school when there is lightning you must not run and you don't want to be in open field or under single tree. Their tent was in open field and 1079 above sea level.
Nigel Evans
26-04-2017 11:52 (GMT)
@User 45 - " It makes me think that some members knew what this expedition would mean but did not expect the particular outcome of it"
Almost certainly. The fact that Yudin did not know about SZ's camera (or it's purpose) suggests that only some members knew. I would guess at SZ, ID, AK and YK.
A more interesting question is why the secrecy? Why deceive other members of the group?
User45
26-04-2017 10:38 (GMT)
(Yuri Alexeevich Krivonischenko - Georgiy)
1)''working in Chelyabinsk - 40 a secret nuclear facility'' 2)''His body will wear clothes that have traces of radioactivity that some trace to this particular event ''
I find this very odd. The background stories from some members are very sucpecious leading up to the Kholat events. It makes me think that some members knew what this expedition would mean but did not expect the particular outcome of it. ''Nikolai promised his mother that this would be his last hiking trip''
Nigel Evans
25-04-2017 17:17 (GMT)
@User45 - hi, glad someone's reading this
Apparently the KGB archives for this period are kept locked for some time to come (2030?) but in the future could become public domain. So there might be an answer one day.
It's almost certain that photos or even complete camera rolls were hidden from the report. Ivanov said that material was removed and expressed his guilt at not giving relatives closure. What could this material be other than photos? If SZ's are genuine then there have to be more, YK's camera was on a tripod. They cut several slits to observe something. It's a no brainer imo.
User45
25-04-2017 12:27 (GMT)
@nigel @rest... Thank you for keeping this subject alive and discuss the things we need to talk about. I come back every day to read about your theories and missing/new information!
I believe this is a story that will never be solved but will always be talked about for that exact reason.
A question of my own: All the camera's were found except for the one which could've captured the very last moments of the crew. It is still not found to this day. Any update on this?
Nigel Evans
24-04-2017 08:26 (GMT)
@mkk - good point but the main factor with the dpi will be wind chill. One local man stating that the wind was the worst he had known since moving there in 1951 (8 years earlier). The mansi told the investigators that the wind could be so strong it could blow man away. The last photographs indicate very strong winds. In a similar vein, has anyone noticed that the two Yuris seem to suffer the worst frostbite even though they die first? My guess is that the frostbite is misdiagnosed and is blackening from burning.
mkk
23-04-2017 21:16 (GMT)
Just wanted to comment on their leaving the tent without proper clothing. In the group diary, Dyatlov records the low temps for Jan 31 as "-18C to -24C". That's about 0F to -11F. (I'm in the US.) I remember more than once, while at college in northern Indiana, the fire alarms going off and everyone having to leave the dormitory in those temps. (It was usually someone who burnt the popcorn...) We would stand around outside for quite some time, waiting for the fire truck to arrive and the firemen to tell us it was okay to go back inside. Very few were wearing coats. Most of us had on sweaters, jeans, and slippers. In the snow, at temps below zero. It was uncomfortable, but you just laughed and made the best of it. It wasn't a huge deal.
It seems reasonable that they might have left expecting to return before too long. They were Russians; they were used to the cold. It wouldn't have had to be all the way up to 0C / 32F in order for them to be okay with less-than-compete wintertime-wear for a half hour or so.
The lady with the missing tongue: Was she sexually assaulted ? Her autopsy report is not as detailed as those of the other victims.
Pkghoshalta@hotmail.com
Cheers
Nigel Evans
23-04-2017 14:06 (GMT)
@Rol88 - "Imo , they underestimated the threat and thought it won't last much and that's why they left a switched- on Chinese torch on the snow maybe as a ''beacon'' to help them in their way back so : 1- they thought they will recover the torch before the batteries are empty 2- They thought they are going to need it to come back to the tent while still in the dark . In other words they did not expect to spend the night out of the tent. But the'' threat'' persisted and kept them from going back to the tent and may have pursued them to the cedar and/or the den. " Yes that's my theory.
But it might not have been so cold at the tent, if the microwave theory to explain ball lightning is correct then a large area could be warmed up (perhaps to say to +1C). The hot spot would have to be warmer to soften the snow of course. The snow found on the tent was peculiarly hard, the first members of the rescue party to arrive damaged the tent by having to use a ice pick to break through it. It is if it had been melted before refreezing. Ditto the ravine snow on top of the den, it had a similar composition like it had experienced heat.
Rol88
23-04-2017 13:19 (GMT)
@Nigel Evans: They acted rationnally by cutting their tent open and leaving it in the middle of the night by -26 DEG C almost barefoot ? I am sorry the threat was terrifying to make such tough people leave their tent so hastily and so unprepared . They knew very well that leaving the tent this way meant certainly frostbites , maybe death and still they took the risk... Imo , they underestimated the threat and thought it won't last much and that's why they left a switched- on Chinese torch on the snow maybe as a ''beacon'' to help them in their way back so : 1- they thought they will recover the torch before the batteries are empty 2- They thought they are going to need it to come back to the tent while still in the dark . In other words they did not expect to spend the night out of the tent. But the'' threat'' persisted and kept them from going back to the tent and may have pursued them to the cedar and/or the den.
Nigel Evans
23-04-2017 06:32 (GMT)
@mkk - yes i believe they behaved rationally, an organised temporary retreat with an injured comrade makes sense to me.
Nigel Evans
23-04-2017 06:30 (GMT)
@Rol88 - YK's camera was found in the tent on a makeshift tripod so it's debatable how much secrecy there was. They were all good friends.
Nigel Evans
23-04-2017 06:27 (GMT)
@Rol88 - previously i said that there was no sign of scorching inside the tent but i've remembered about the bamboo pole that had been "cut" at every section. I remember reading somewhere that this was consistent with an electrical discharge flash heating the air inside each section splitting the wood.
Nigel Evans
23-04-2017 06:22 (GMT)
@John Tadlock - it sounds like ball lightning not St Elmo fire, BL coming down chimneys (or stove pipes) is a common occurence, the theory is that the carbon in the soot (and metal pipe in this case) act as a wave guide for microwaves. Just guessing but you haven't seen the "three heads" photo yet? - http://dyatlovpass.com/controversy#zolotaryovcamera
The BL theory is that this is a photo of a much bigger orb and the "pop" you experienced was much more powerful with fatal consequences at the ravine.
mkk
23-04-2017 01:13 (GMT)
@JohnTadlock: I think Nigel has proposed something *like* that, regarding ball lightning, but perhaps not exactly the same.
I keep thinking about the hikers and what I've read about their behavior on previous hikes.
Lyuda had been shot in the leg and carried out on a stretcher--without losing her cool or her sense of humor.
Dyatlov had been in charge of a group when they were caught in a stampede of wild horses. He directed them to huddle together and stand perfectly still as the horses rushed toward them. Imagine the presence of mind he must have had, and the strength of character to get everyone else to do what would have felt so contrary to natural inclination! The horses, of course swerved around them and they were safe.
Doroshenko had attacked a bear with a geological hammer. His fellow hikers followed suit and they drove the bear away. Good grief!
Whatever it was, I have a hard time imagining this group fleeing the tent in mindless terror. There must have been some urgent, rational, reason that they chose a Siberian winter night over the confines of their tent. And chose to leave without proper clothing & supplies.
Rol88
22-04-2017 21:57 (GMT)
@ John Tadlock : They didn't use the stove the last night .They pitched their tent on the barren slope of Mt Kholyat Syakhl , where firewood was not available .
Rol88
22-04-2017 21:43 (GMT)
@ Nigel Evans: Of course ! While some guys were shivering in the cold of the night , all what some others were thinking about was to take some few more pics for the comrades of the KGB and the XXI st communist party convention... A brawl would inevitably break up....
John Tadlock
22-04-2017 17:31 (GMT)
During the mid 1960s, while still a boy, I was camping with my father and grandfather duck hunting. It was strormy. The cabin we spent the night in had a stove, with an active coal fire, with a long stove pipe extending outside then up. At one point tiny balls of lighting appeared and skittered along the stove pipe, eventually falling to the floor, and then skittering across the wood floor before disappearing with a pop. The several balls of tiny lightning were fairly small, the size of a closed fist, each behaving sort of independently almost as if they were alive. The phenom lasted a minute or two. I was more intrigued rather than frightened. My grandfather said it was just St. Elmo's fire. Uncommon, but he had seen it before. I am wondering if something similar scared the hikers from their tent?
Nigel Evans
22-04-2017 14:59 (GMT)
@Rol88 - and a good reason for a fight to break out.
Nigel Evans
22-04-2017 11:57 (GMT)
@mkk - ID was the only member of the group to have the classic signs of hypothermia, full bladder, paradoxical undressing.
@Rol88 - i'd agree and it also explains why Ivanov was overruled about the fireballs.
Rol88
22-04-2017 08:19 (GMT)
@mkk : The fact Dyatlov did not file the exact details of his route seems to point out that Dyatlov and of course the presumed KGB agent(s) Zolotaryov wanted to keep the real task of the mission shrouded in secrecy under the cover of a very casual hiker hike in the mountains. Let us not forget the expedition was dedicated to the XXI st Meeting of the Communist Party. If they dedicated an expedition to the Everest ,to K2 0r even to Kilimanjaro it would have been understandable because it is a real feat but to Mt Otorten ??? Obviously at least some of them expected to come back with precious documented observations about some interesting phenomena...
mkk
21-04-2017 13:51 (GMT)
@Nigel, I agree with you. That's one reason I just can't quite get on board with the infrasound theory, although it seems reasonable at first. Not only do birds hear and respond to infrasound themselves, but it wouldn't explain their deaths.
Incidentally, my grandmother had an encounter with ball lightning when she was younger. No one was hurt.
Dyatlov's position, with his arms raised to his chest, looks quite similar to the "pugilistic stance" (boxer position) which occurs because of muscles tightening and shortening in contact with very high heat--as in a fire. It can happen even if the heat occurs after the person is dead. Curious, since evidence seems to point toward his dying of hypothermia & I haven't heard of any burns on him.
Nigel Evans
21-04-2017 08:25 (GMT)
@mkk - the dead birds are explained by an explosion which is the best explanation for the four ravine deaths.
mkk
21-04-2017 02:52 (GMT)
I remember reading in Eicher's book that, for some reason, Dyatlov hadn't properly filed the official paperwork specifically stating the route they were taking. As I understand it, this caused some delay at the beginning of the search. I haven't seen this point addressed in any of the discussion. It may be irrelevant, but it is suggestive.
Also, there was mention of a surprising number of dead ptarmigans found by the search crews. I think this fact should be addressed by any serious theories. (Even if the explanation is just that they died later--why?)
Also, I remember reading (I believe in Zina's diary?) that the group members argued one evening about whose turn it was to patch up the tent. Lyuda got angry and went off by herself, and so didn't participate in their little celebration of Doroshenko's birthday. But just now I couldn't find where I'd read that. Anyone remember? I feel like there was something said about stuffing the holes of the tent with clothing to keep out the drafts.
Nigel Evans
20-04-2017 14:06 (GMT)
Rol88 - that danger being a GLO as photographed by SZ.
Nigel Evans
20-04-2017 13:49 (GMT)
@Rol88 - there must have been an event at the tent that forced them to immediately leave without any preperation. Hence my interest in YK's burn. If he received that at the tent (inside or outside) then it would be sensible to quickly withdraw with the expectation that this was temporary. Hence the torch left on halfway down to assist. Imo it was a temporary retreat until the danger passed. But they had underestimated the danger, it didn't recede and later came at them.
Rol88
20-04-2017 13:03 (GMT)
@Nigel Evans : What is your opinion regarding the jacket tucked in the hole of the tent ? Dyatlov was found quite lightly dressed you know with the jacket of Krivo ! How could he have relinquished such a precious item before leaving the tent ??? One more troubling detail !
Nigel Evans
20-04-2017 10:17 (GMT)
@Rol88 - I forgot about the jacket stuffed in the hole. Fair point, that and the lack of signs of scorching within the tent mitigates against a discharge inside. One torch/lantern was placed on the tent presumably mislaid the other was found halfway down left turned on. It's very difficult to lose an illuminated torch in total darkness! A very high probability that it was left there to assist the return.
The treeline provided shelter, the means of a fire, snowbanks for caves/dens, branches to build into seats. And importantly a position to monitor the tent area. It was a sensible decision, I don't see the advantage in heading for the base camp.
They would have been cold and wet that night. Tough kids.
I'm not keen on the brawling theory but personal choice i guess, we'll never know for sure.
Rol88
20-04-2017 07:42 (GMT)
@Nigel Evans : You wrote ''torch'' , I read somewhere ''lantern'' . Are we talking about the same items ?
Rol88
20-04-2017 07:27 (GMT)
@Nigel Evans : Imo I don't think the GLO burst inside the tent , otherwise how would you explain the burns on the leg of Y.Krivo and Doro and no burnt fabric ? Such a blast would have set fire in the tent or at least leave some traces on the fabric but again the tent was lacerated from inside no trace of burns whatsoever... Speaking of the tent : How do you explain they found the jacket of I. Dyatlov tucked in a hole of the tent ? A pitiful attempt to close the hole and keep some warmth in the tent ? They also found 2 Chinese made lanterns on the slope on the mountain. Again doesn't make sense to leave them behind . The ''Event'' in the tent happened around 9 pm. It was pitch black outside ,they could never recover the lanterns before dawn when they would be useless to them.. They found lots of items in the pockets of the victims . Zolotaryov kept his camera and his note pad , so why would they leave the lanterns behind on the snow ??? : As for the base camp : There was food , spare skis and Rustem's mandolin yes , but above all there was SHELTER from a freezing -28* c night but for some reason they did not want to or could not make it there... imo obviously because the whole expedition had a secret task ie to study strange phenomena ( which nature is subject to debate lets keep it for other posts) in the area. ID and for sure Comrade Zolotaryov would certainly not allow the rest of the group to leave the area and stop observing what was going on around the tent, even at the price of their lives ... Imo it explains why they pitched the tent on the slope of Kholyat and not in the forest with no protection from the winds and no firewood . The last night under the tent must have been pretty cold... This also may explain why the situation degenerated to a brawl later... ID died with his fists raised on his torso ...maybe he was still shouting swears and threats with Rustem until the last minute of his short life...
Nigel Evans
19-04-2017 16:13 (GMT)
@Rol88: btw feel free to challenge the theory, polite debate over different theories is what this page should be for.
"The 2 Yuris died of hypethermia their lesions were quite superficial of course YD had his hair burnt and his fingers and toes frostbitten but not to the point these lesions were life threatening. " YK had a massive burn on his lower leg and foot 30cm in length that had charred the skin to the extent exposing tissue underneath. He had bit both hands, presumably to try and deal with the pain, one of them so hard that skin was found in his mouth. Therefore (i assert) he was concious after the burn and so it is reasonable to suppose he was concious when he received it? Given the extent of this burn it is hard to attribute it to being accidental. Also YD had burns and it is imo difficult to explain them both as accidents from the fire, torture maybe but accidents no. This burn is a copycat injury for the one received by the lady in the ball-lightning link below. Electrical discharge is a good explanation for this injury, possibly the best one. Also the skin was found in his mouth which suggests that he bit his hand shortly before dying, this seems strange behaviour for death from hypothermia, shouldn't he be losing feeling in his hands by this time?
The base camp was out of sight around the mountain and only contained food, spare skis and a mandolin. It was of little use to them in surviving the night. They went to the cedar because they could see it from the tent, from it's top half they could observe the tent area. This imo strongly indicates that they wanted to return once the threat had receded and this tells us a lot about the threat that seems to rule out torture as a cause of YK/YD's burns. They also left a torch on halfway down the slope, imo to assist their return.
Rol88
19-04-2017 13:25 (GMT)
@Nigel Evans:'' YK and to some extent YD had horrific lesions'' ?? The 2 Yuris died of hypethermia their lesions were quite superficial of course YD had his hair burnt and his fingers and toes frostbitten but not to the point these lesions were life threatening. If there is something stumbling in this mad story , it is why on earth these people did not try to seek refuge in the base camp not very far down the hill where they could have found shelter, food and clothing . The den and the base camp were at the same distance from the tent and it would be very far fetched to speculate the GLO after storming into the tent stood also in their way to the base camp !
Nigel Evans
18-04-2017 13:35 (GMT)
@Rol88 - "Maybe one GLO got into that tent and scared the hell out of them to the point they slit their tent open and left it in a hurry." Or maybe one got in the tent and electrocuted YK and YD and blew the tent open as in the swiss case...
YK and to some extent YD had horrific lesions, the ravine four had barotrauma style injuries or as a result of mechanical impact (e.g. the side wall of the den pushed on them with great force.
"If we are going to put it all on the account of the GLO, then one needs to assume the hikers have been subjected to several GLOs pursuing them everywhere they go." We'll never know, but it is possible that it was just the one GLO, which stayed at the tent for some time preventing them from returning but then converted into a roller, fell into the ravine upstream of the den and followed it downstream smashing through the den on it's journey. Burnt treetops are a common sign of lightning strikes and could be irrelevant to the dpi. Lightning is an alternative theory for the ravine event, the frozen stream possibly providing the best earth in the vicinity.
Rol88
17-04-2017 16:26 (GMT)
@Nigel Evans .Very interesting ! It does explain why- probably commissioned by KGB represented in the persons of Comrades Zolotaryov and Kolevatov - , Dyatlov (a radio engineer) pitched his tent, in the middle of nowhere in order to observe the'' ball lightning'' or GLO . Maybe one GLO got into that tent and scared the hell out of them to the point they slit their tent open and left it in a hurry. But does it also explain why the Cedar tree apex was burnt AND Dubinina 's , Thibeaux and Zolotaryovs sustained these horrific lesions ? If we are going to put it all on the account of the GLO, then one needs to assume the hikers have been subjected to several GLOs pursuing them everywhere they go - the tent, the cedar tree , and the den- like guided missiles ! And these phenomenons tend to be - according to the reports- quite isolated in time( few seconds or minutes ) and space ( one GLO reported at a time ) .
Nigel Evans
17-04-2017 12:34 (GMT)
Some interesting overlap there with the DPI injuries and an alternative theory for how the tent was ripped open!
Nigel Evans
17-04-2017 11:49 (GMT)
Rol88 - no, probs, no probs! Happy Easter. Based on the injury profile it seems that only ID and RS hit anything/anyone with their fists. Another curiosity are the amount of scratches and abrasions on the faces of ZK, RS and ID. There is evidence that this is a feature of electro magnetic phenomena like ball lightning.
Rol88
17-04-2017 05:45 (GMT)
Nigel Evans I read my previous comment again and it seems I made some typing mistakes I was very sleepy sorry for the poor typing .
Rol88
17-04-2017 05:45 (GMT)
Nigel Evans I read my previous comment again and it seems I made some typing mistakes I was very sleepy sorry for the poor typing .
Rol88
15-04-2017 23:36 (GMT)
Nigel Evans : even if you're exhausted and confused you won't fall on your clenched fists you , you will always fall on your open palms. We can safely say there was definitely at some time a brawl between the members. Most probably Dyatlov had to answer about his bad decisions which stranded the hikers in the wild and caused the death of Doro and Krivo . Most probably Dyatlo had to defend his point of view with his fists. It is a detail but it would have consumed their body energy and hastened their demise on their way back to the tent. As for the radiotransmitter Dyatlov was taking it on hikes but that time I think Dyatlov was asked by KGB which infiltrated the group with Zolotaryov not to take the radiotransmitter . Maybe they wanted to keep the mission top secret and didn't want any information leak on the - air.
Rol88
15-04-2017 22:59 (GMT)
Happy Easter everyone !
Nigel Evans
15-04-2017 11:24 (GMT)
Rol88 - yes YK my error. For the record 330 meters apart. ZK didn't have bruises on her hands, they are described as abrasions. She also has a wound on the back of her hand. This fits with my theory that the returning 3 were the last able bodied group and had rapidly dug the ravine 4 out of the snow (with their bare hands) which had buried them in "the ravine event". N.B. most of the marks on the groups faces are described as abrasions not bruises.... As for RS and ID having bruises on their hands, maybe there was a brawl, after the 2 Yuris died people would be upset with previous decisions and the den is a sign that the group split into two. But i think "the bruising consistent with fighting" theory is just a distraction. E.g. ZK's bruise at the waist is almost certainly from dragging the makeshift sled. Both RS (concussion) and ID (hypothermia) probably died highly confused which means injuries from stumbling/falling/hitting hands on trees and rocks can't be ruled out and the fatal injuries have little to do with fighting... Don't see the relevance of leaving a radiotransmitter behind.
Rol88
15-04-2017 03:38 (GMT)
Also according to K Mc Closkey , Dyatlov designed not only the famous stove but also a radiotransmitter he was taking with him on trips. But for his last trip he didn't. Just left it behind ....
Rol88
14-04-2017 22:34 (GMT)
@ Nigel Evans : You mean to say Krivonishenko's nose . Dorosheko was turned face to the ground and in this position his nose couldn't be accessible to the birds of prey.Following your remark regarding the way Dyatlov , Slobodin and Kolmogorova fell consecutively at 250 m distance , pls do also note that the 3 of them had metacarpophalangeal bruises consistent with hand to hand fight . Even Kolmogorova.... Maybe the 3 of them sided each other against the rest of the group members and decided to leave the others behind and to return to the tent ?
Nigel Evans
14-04-2017 10:02 (GMT)
DRAGON_MARTIJN - well the coverup would seem to have to fool Ivanov and the students in the rescue group.
Rol88 - yes, imo they deliberately camped there to photograph the "mansi's golden orbs" and SZ was equipped with a camera specially for this. So it could have been a KGB sanctioned mission. YD lost the tip of his nose presumbly to predation. The predation could be explained by crows being quickly defeated by snowfall with no larger predators in the vicinity immediately afterwards.
Imo the most fascinating fact is that ZK, RS and ID all give up within say 250m of each other. Could be coincidence or they were entering a zone that was debilitating and weakening them.
Rol88
13-04-2017 22:26 (GMT)
One more strange detail : Despite the winter and the scarcity of available food , no animal scavenged on the corpses .Except of the eyes of Zolotaryov and eyes and tongue of Dubinina , which no one is really sure how they disappeared , the corpses were kept off of any scavenging.No traces of animal footprints around the corpses reported...
DRAGON_MARTIJN
13-04-2017 09:41 (GMT)
Parachute mines are in my vision also bombs. "natural aerial object that can burn and explode and fits with the local knowledge", don't know what that is. I think planes with bombs. Cover up can be done at the side of the military by not mentioning they were there. Not nice to admit you killed 9 innocent people.
Nigel Evans
12-04-2017 17:13 (GMT)
DRAGON_MARTIJN - military ordnance satisfies a lot of the evidence, aerial self illuminated objects - photographed by the group and reported by credible eye witnesses, shockwave style injuries. But not bombing - why light a fire? No bomb craters/fragments? Other devices could be a better theory imo, e.g. parachute mines and flares, with the evidence being carried away in the strong winds could be a fit.
But these options would require a coverup which doesn't fit with the evidence, the rescue party included fellow students who presumably would have by now spilled the beans if they had seen anything, the KGB rounded up Mansi leaders and the interrogation included torture until they found the first bodies. And "unknown compelling force" isn't much of a cover story.
A much better theory is a natural aerial object that can burn and explode and fits with the local knowledge.
DRAGON_MARTIJN
12-04-2017 14:18 (GMT)
My opinion. They were killed by Soviet plane(s) (see pictures of the planes on this website) by bombs. Maybe the pilots thought they were a target, maybe they thought they were escaped gulagprisoners who needed to be killed. The doctor said: killed by car crash or BOMB. Burned treetops... Probably first light flares to mark the territory and see the target and then the bombs. Probably one bomb on the other side of the mountain (they get afraid), one bomb which knocks down two in the tree and the three others who ran back to the tent, and a third bomb in the ravine. There goes some time over this, so probably they really wanted to kill them.
Nigel Evans
10-04-2017 21:33 (GMT)
Rol88 - it's probably best if we just agree to disagree about portals.
Incidentally in the late fifties it was the Russians that had a lead on the Americans (Sputnik 1957, First man in space 1961). This was mainly because their atomic bomb technology was cruder and hence heavier and so their ballistic missiles had to be more powerful. It was the Russian lead in rocket technology that forced Kennedy to commit to putting a man on the moon by the end of the decade.
Rol88
10-04-2017 20:36 (GMT)
@ Nigel Evans : I really appreciate the pertinence of your comments. Yes opening a portal(like in the Philadelphia experiment ) would have needed a considerable amount of material far beyond the strength of the hikers. But this theory is worth considering. It is a fact that by the late 50 ies the Soviets were starting to realise it was getting harder to close the gap with the US and they started exploring new alternatives such as the paranormal ( telekinesis , telepathy) etc...
Rol88
10-04-2017 13:40 (GMT)
@ Andrews :Now this being said , these are just suppositions, true facts may be different.
Rol88
10-04-2017 13:37 (GMT)
@ Andrew : It makes sense Y Yudin makes up an illness . ..Remember they were in the USSR and they had KGB agents among the members of the expedition . iIf he had any hint about what they were up to , the only way would have been to make up some excuse , to get out and to keep his mouth shut....Big Brother is watching....
Nigel Evans
10-04-2017 12:31 (GMT)
Rol88 - they didn't use the stove that night. When they set off with supplies for two weeks the men carried loads of 40kg and the girls 30kg. They had 3 axes and some knives and collected firewood each evening. They left 55kg of food for the return journey at the base camp to lighten their loads for the ascent up the mountain. They didn't use the stove because there wasn't any firewood to collect above the tree line.
Has Mr Genovese estimated what this portal opening device would weigh? How many car batteries do you need to open a portal to another dimension?
More seriously i would agree that SZ and probably AK were KGB. I've a suspicion that there was a plan to investigate the "golden orbs" either formed before they set off or along the journey.
Andrew
10-04-2017 00:43 (GMT)
Alright, so out of the theories given, I actually find Infrasound as a very likely candidate for why they left the tent, however, I'm not sure what to believe when it comes to the gruesome deaths of three hikers.
Andrew
10-04-2017 00:25 (GMT)
@Rol88 I wouldn't understand why Yuri Yudin would make up an illness and not tell anyone else, wouldn't he want to tell ANYONE else, so they wouldn't be killed?
Rol88
09-04-2017 23:33 (GMT)
According to French psychic Michel Genovese the whole trip was infiltrated and organised by the soviet secret service. Kolevatov and Zolotaryov were KGB agents infiltrators keeping an eye on the group activities. Dyatlov designed a special device to open a portal to another dimension and unleash malevolent forces to help USSR in their war against USA and was very keen to try it in the wild asap and the KGB was very interested to see the results. According to Michel Genovese , Yuri Yudin knew about the experiment and made up the story of his illness to get out of there before it was too late. The terrible forces unleashed during the experiment drove them out of the tent and caused their demise.
Rol88
09-04-2017 23:04 (GMT)
@NIgel Evans: you are right regarding the footprints.But then there is this story of the stove causing sparkles and fumes and driving the hikers out of the tent . It seems tempting to buy this theory since it explains why the hikers slashed the tent's fabric from inside. But then ,remember no one ever reported any burn of the fabric or of the items left behind in the tent. The theory doesn't hold when you think about it twice.
Nigel Evans
08-04-2017 12:02 (GMT)
Rol88 - my understanding is that the rescue party found the tent by picking up the trail by the river and following it?
The retreat path to the cedar was on the north side which would survive better (in the sun) than the approach path on the south side.
Can't see a problem with superimposed footprints?
Rol88
07-04-2017 17:18 (GMT)
And no one ever made any mention about superimposed footprints
Rol88
07-04-2017 17:15 (GMT)
Guys there are lots of dubious details in the findings during the investigations : take for example the footprints found on the snow , how come they found the footprints of the hikers going down the tent and couldn't find their footprints going up to their last camp given the fac t they made their way up few hours before their escape from the tent down to the forest ?
Nigel Evans
03-04-2017 13:23 (GMT)
Just in case people think i'm getting ahead of myself with the orbs
It's my conjecture that a more powerful form of this results in cattle and even human mutilation. E.g. google "human mutilation brazil".
Nigel Evans
02-04-2017 05:52 (GMT)
Don't go there - incidentally orbs and cattle mutilations may have a connection so it maybe that an orb could have removed the tongue. But the pathologist blamed post death decomposition.
Nigel Evans
01-04-2017 21:00 (GMT)
Don't go there - read my recent posts, that's not what the pathologist said .
Don't go there
01-04-2017 19:42 (GMT)
And how does it explain the ripped off tongue of the woman? Explanation on the site says she was alive at the time when it happened. No orb can do this.
Nigel Evans
01-04-2017 15:17 (GMT)
Expert - that's the point of what i'm saying, there was no panic. With this scenario they left the tent to get closer to the orb in relatively mild temperatures (lets say +1C). As highly qualified university level technicians with radio and nuclear backgrounds they would have been fascinated with the object and quite curious. ID put his torch on the snow on the tent whilst he adjusted his clothing perhaps. Then two of the party suffered electrocution burns and they elected to retire to the forest and light a fire. There was no panic, just realisation of the potential danger in staying near to the tent with this orb just outside it and that's what prevented them from returning. So they calmly walked down the mountain side by side assisting YD and YK who might have been limping. The reason that they slit the tent rather than using the opening could be the location of the orb or even St Elmos fire perhaps. The tent was on a slope with the entrance at the high point which would be where you'd expect the discharge. Then at the cedar they experience the real cold temperature and some of the group led by SZ decide a snow cave/den is the best option. Then the same orb or another one or a lightning bolt creates an explosion near the den that throws the den and it's occupants (but not the seats) several meters along the ravine with barotrauma style injuries.
Expert
01-04-2017 14:48 (GMT)
I really listen to detailed story. About escaping urgently ..
Expert
01-04-2017 14:44 (GMT)
because of YK burnt ?
Expert
01-04-2017 14:39 (GMT)
Nigel /
So, Why did they got panic in the tent ?
Nigel Evans
01-04-2017 14:12 (GMT)
Expert - no ID's torch was found on top of snow on the tent. Warmer doesn't mean warm. +1C is warmer than -20C but it's still cold.
Expert
01-04-2017 13:52 (GMT)
Nigel /
I imagine that in your explaining -If they were in those crisis , they were rolling in the hill, keeping their body cold on snow or run away from tent site before they were roasted. but they kept calm out of tent. unlike in tent. which mean no threat from the object.
In other idea, I assumed military helicopter. (they were warned to leave the site) but there were some traces the assumption couldn't 'explain or fit' in the incident.
Nigel Evans
01-04-2017 12:30 (GMT)
Expert - the hotspot indicates warming of the snow to soften it enough that the wind could shape it (slush?). So it's logical that this warming extended further out decreasing with distance but could include the tent location. That explains why they went outside not properly dressed for -20C. Because the local temperature wasn't -20C.
Nigel Evans
01-04-2017 11:52 (GMT)
Expert - there's several alternative scenarios connected with the ball lightning theory. Nothing wrong with discussing them in turn.
Expert
31-03-2017 20:38 (GMT)
Nature phenomenon could give human panic through big, sudden damage. there were no traces. your assumption was away from evidences
Expert
31-03-2017 20:35 (GMT)
Now,I am focusing on that- How they were driven out of tent urgently with big panic .
Your assumption is explaining it weirdly
Nigel Evans
31-03-2017 15:44 (GMT)
Expert - not sure i understand (1). I'm not saying they were too warm, just that around the tent it was significantly warmer than -20C. not sure i understand (2) either.
I don't know anything about a burnt trace on the cedar tree?
Yes i'm trying to fit the facts to the ball lightning theory and creatively so. Happy to hear other peoples explanations.
Expert
31-03-2017 13:42 (GMT)
Nigel /
When you match all puzzle pieces , do you match all puzzle pieces into your imagination ?
First,Match all pieces in order Later, judge your imagination was right !
It seems you are making up all remains into Ball Lightning . Then, you would get weird course..
1. the air in the tent would have been warm due to microwave heating. -> If they were too warm in the tent to escape urgently , Why didn't they escape urgently around the tent ?
2. if YK was too brave and went outside and put his hand(s) too near the orb (perhaps to photograph it's structure) then this would explain his burns (electrocution) and why they walked down the hill side by side (he was limping and needed assistance) and why they knew they couldn't return. -> It would be more rational that there was burnt trace on cedar tree and YK died under cedar tree and YK was attacked there .
Nigel Evans
30-03-2017 11:35 (GMT)
Expert - i think that :-
1. the air in the tent would have been warm due to microwave heating. 2. if YK was too brave and went outside and put his hand(s) too near the orb (perhaps to photograph it's structure) then this would explain his burns (electrocution) and why they walked down the hill side by side (he was limping and needed assistance) and why they knew they couldn't return.
Also wrt to SZ's photographs clearly showing an aerial object and the complete lack of any similar photos from the other cameras (except perhaps one) then this would support Ivanov's statement that material was removed from the report.
Expert
30-03-2017 10:07 (GMT)
[Opinion-1]
Nigel, Details Left Out /
The force had 2 character those would make them confused .
1- Very big force As they urgently escaped the tent without survival stuffs in terrible whether.
2 - Unknown force After they escaped urgently, they tried to calm down. Which mean the force did not attack them instantly, and I guess the hikers won't know exactly what that was
So, that did not give them panic anymore. ( unlike "in the tent" )
but at least, they got awareness - that has immense force. As everything 9 hikes could do is to escape from the site. It was windy day at less -25'C. (Though They soon could know terrible whether .. Everything they could do was the way)
They were very afraid of the force around the tent. And there are clues they tried to hide themselves.
1. Fire behind Cedar tree. it was made at tree opposite site from the tent.
2.Broken Cedar tree it was not used for fire, but empty space faced tent. it must be harder working to climb tree to Around 5M in the cold. . . than somewhat approach the tent. So, they were very cautious ..
there are many mentions , assumptions "they tried to come back to tent" but I don't agree it very much.
the tent was built on hill Nothing there for the hikers to hide !!
I bet "they tried just to pick up survival stuffs - wears, boots, ,
Nigel Evans
27-03-2017 14:14 (GMT)
Expert - my theory is that RS assisted by ZK started the return journey shortly after "the ravine event" but ID stayed to assist the dying with NTB although unconcious taking a long time to die of cold (he was well dressed and is estimated to have survived a couple of hours). ID is the only member of the group to have 1 litre of urine so the theory is that he stayed too long and was suffering from hypothermia (he also displays paradoxical undressing which supports this).
Nigel Evans
26-03-2017 16:38 (GMT)
aga - maybe the torch was placed on top of 10-15cm of snow?
Expert - i look forward to it
admin - could i request an update to the Ball Lightning section under Theories?
Something like :- "The "three heads" photo below would fit the ball lightning theory very well. The "heads" are curves in the base of the tent fabric slit, the "hair" is the weave of the canvas with the strong light penetrating through the fabric also. The horizontal streaks are individual snowflakes or graupnel particles passing at high wind speeds across the view within the shutter speed, the repeated modulation of brightness due to the rotation and reflection of the light source".
Aga
22-03-2017 19:17 (GMT)
I understand that there were 15-20 cm of snow on top of the tent and Dyatlov's flashlight was found burried under 5-10 cm of snow. Does that mean that it was lying on top of 10-15 cm of snow? it is unlikely that a large amount of snow wound get underneath the flashlight after it was dropped.
Nigel Evans
20-03-2017 20:24 (GMT)
Details Left Out - yes, for NTB Vozrojdenniy records three bruises/hemorrhages, forearm, upper lip and right temple. AK had diffuse bleeding in the underlying tissues of the left knee. LD and SZ's internal bleeding allowed him to estimate survival times post trauma which fits with the distribution of clothing. So these bodies had not decomposed badly having been frozen solid for most of the time until discovery. But no chest bruises to explain the fractures. The photo of LD in the morgue shows the right side of her chest, there are two fracture lines under the skin in that photo.
Details Left Out
20-03-2017 19:18 (GMT)
Nigel, you're right, I relooked and there is mention of bruising on Lyudmila's thigh. No broken bone on the thigh, though... perhaps severe bruises react differently on frozen bodies, as unlikely as it sounds. You'd expect with broken ribs there would be substantial bruising on the chest. Or maybe how the chest was pressed again the rock had it in a different environment than the thigh... all speculation, but it does make less of a case for murder/beatings, the fact that there was no bruise on her chest but on her thigh. Very interesting.
Nigel Evans
20-03-2017 15:54 (GMT)
If you look at that photo of LD you'll notice that there is an air gap between the water and the ice above presumably part of the spring thaw. Plus the stream has some strength again due to the thaw, hence it is possible that her body has moved before being found and the position of her head cannot be assumed to be the same as at death.
Expert - i'll pass on biting my tongue thanks :@D. I can't see how biting it (or lack of) affects post mortem predation? BL rollers demonstrate the mechanical force required to equal being hit by a car (and even being hit by a tank!)
Details Left Out - bruising, the autopsy recorded several bruises on the ravine four but none at the places they would be expected to explain impact from say a blunt object. The pathologist specifically stating "like the shockwave from a bomb". Yes the BL theory requires two events some time apart as it takes time to build the den. It's possible that YD/YK received their burns at the tent (electrocution) and were still able to limp down the mountain. A clue here is that most of the group seemed to have walked at a modest pace side by side perhaps to assist YK?
Details Left Out
20-03-2017 14:34 (GMT)
Expert: Okay, that makes sense, about the reason that their footsteps weren't hurried, even though they were panicked. The snow didn't allow quick passage.
I too think that Lyudmila's tongue was removed before death. The photo of her with her "face and chest pressed against the rock," which you linked, I believe shows that her head was turned, though. The right side of her face appears to be pressed to the rock, but her mouth and eyes appear exposed. It does not change my thoughts on her tongue, but maybe explains her missing eyes? Perhaps the eyes were removed post-mortem.
Details Left Out
20-03-2017 14:26 (GMT)
Nigel: I understand what you're saying about the tongue and blood in Lyudmila's stomach, that the blood may have gotten there if she simply bit her tongue before death, but that the tongue may have been removed after death. I still think it was removed before she died, but this, of course, is only speculation.
Okay, skin bath tissue = wrinkled skin from water immersion. This makes much more sense. Skin bath tissue sounds like a Silence of the Lambs type of activity. That is interesting that Rustem Slobodin had this on his foot. I wonder what caused this. More mysteries...
It seems that if ball lightening injured members of the group while in or around the tent, that there would have been signs of them being dragged or helped along on the way to the cedar tree, but it says that the footprints made it clear that each individual walked away without help. Maybe you are saying that the ball lightening also occurred while four of the members were in the ravine, causing their severe injuries then.
Details Left Out
20-03-2017 14:15 (GMT)
In the case of Lyudmila Dubinina and Seymen Zolotaryov, both of whom suffered a series of broken ribs, I am wondering if it's possible that there was bruising, initially, but that the bruising dissapeared over time. If this is possible, it would keep it open that maybe a physical attack or a fall occurred.
I have contacted the Alabama Department of Forensics (U.S.) to ask about bruising. On their website, there is a general timeline of how long it takes bruising to disappear after death: http://adfs.alabama.gov/Bruises.aspx In normal conditions, bruising will dissapear post-mortem in two-four weeks. However, this is not on frozen bodies. I have asked them how this might differ on a frozen body, specifically a body frozen for three months. It seems to me that the bruising could have been there, then dissapeared over time. Maybe longer than normal, in the case of a frozen body. But, I have no knowledge on the topic.
I came across their website because I mistakenly thought that the body farms were located in Alabama. There are several throughout the U.S., but they are actually based in Texas. I mention this because it is interesting reading, learning about the body farm: http://www.txstate.edu/anthropology/facts/labs/farf.html
Expert
20-03-2017 11:41 (GMT)
Mansi already had experienced through their companion death. They would investigate by them self . They were aware something was wrong around the mountain. They named it Mountain of the death or Otorten. They explained two something wrong - Forest giant, Sky ball.
I think .. it is nothing that "their footsteps weren't hurried" They just had to calm down. -Snow , hard stones on the pass .
They won't know what the sky ball was .. but big panic in the tent - maybe unknown, super technology would be used to drive them out of the tent. Don't forget less -25'C ! With strong wind. Surely they were in big panic ! If the force was nature or human, They must be damaged in the tent. but No damage ! Only Mental panic !
Expert
20-03-2017 11:17 (GMT)
I checked out sky ball motions that were depicted by Witnesses (Mansi , Russian mine worker) How could it be nature phenomenon .. ? I doubt ..
Expert
20-03-2017 11:13 (GMT)
Nigel /
Do you know any ball lightning cases that match their injuries . . . ??
sever rib damages ! broken skull ..
Expert
20-03-2017 11:05 (GMT)
Nigel /
You need to try an experiment . Bite your tongue . You won't pull out tongue
Expert
20-03-2017 11:01 (GMT)
I agree that LD tongue was removed in the incident : See the last pose of LD ! http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Lyudmila-Dubinina-post-mortem-1.jpg ... If tongue was removed after the incident (by other human) , her face would be turned. Animals also won't remove tongue perfectly in the pose. It was said "the tongue, along with the diaphragm of the mouth, were simply pulled out."
Nigel Evans
19-03-2017 18:57 (GMT)
Details Left Out - "skin bath tissue". I think that's just a poor translation of "wrinkled skin from water immersion". More interestingly the autopsy for RS noted the same for his foot. I've been fascinated with what could have caused the complete disappearance of LD's tongue and base muscle (exposing the hyoid bone) as it's a copycat injury with cattle mutilations which may be connected with ball lightning or rather a possible cause of it - microwaves. However i've come to the view that i'm being over creative and there are several mundane possibilities irrespective of whether she swallowed some blood. She could have bitten it in the event that broke her ribs and as said below a flock of crows could have plucked it out in a few minutes. Obviously other people will have their own theories but i don't hold with the murder theory, the pathologist was quite clear that the ravine four suffered high energy bone trauma without any sign of tissue damage from an impact. Someone below posted his view that skin doesn't bruise in extreme cold, but i don't think they were that cold in the den, gloves were in jacket and an unbuttoned coat. Glad you like the ball lightning theory, the author of the viafanzine site clearly likes it as well. He/she alludes to a point that i don't think has been made before on this page, that when they ran off into the night poorly dressed for -20C it was because the area around the tent could have been a lot warmer, possibly above zero, due to microwave energy warming the area up. It wasn't just the hot spot that was warm....
Details Left Out
19-03-2017 14:25 (GMT)
Nigel:
Skin bath tissue?
I know little about the process of decomposition, and of decomposition in sub-freezing/freezing and wet environments, but it does make sense to me that the eyes and soft tissue around the mouth would decompose at a fast rate than the rest of the body, especially if pressed against wet snow. But the tongue makes less sense to me. Are you saying her tongue may have simply decomposed, just as her eyes did?
I was thinking, her ribs being cracked could also have been done if Zolotaryov pressed his knees to her chest while removing her tongue. This could explain why both sides of her ribs were broken. It does not explain why the right side of his ribs were cracked though.
Mysterious, all of it.
Some of your thoughts of the lightening ball seem plausible to me.
Nigel Evans
18-03-2017 22:56 (GMT)
Details Left Out - The pathologist didn't say that her stomach contained blood, he described it as a dark reddish slimy mass. Sadly never sent for tests to determine it's composition. But he did say that "The injuries of the head area of ??the soft tissue and "skin bath 'limbs are posthumous changes".
Details Left Out
18-03-2017 12:52 (GMT)
Maybe the answers, or some of the answers, are in the details left out of the autopsies.
Why were the autopsies of the worst victims the least detailed? Why was nothing said of Lyudmila's missing tongue other than that it was missing and blood was found in her stomach (implying the tongue was removed while she was still alive)? It should have been simple to detect whether the tongue had been ripped out or cut out, for example.
I do not know why they left the tent. You wrote that their footsteps weren't hurried, and if they were terribly frightened, I think they would have run. But yet they left without proper clothing. The stove smoking out the tent seems plausible for why they cut holes in the tent from the inside, and maybe explains why they ripped their way out of the tent, if the stove was near the tent's entrance. But then why did they walk so far away from the tent? It seems they would have stayed in the area and then removed the stove from the tent and got back in the tent.
Or maybe they were frightened by someone or something or some phenomena outside the tent, slicing holes in the tent either to see or as a start to ripping the tent open, hoping to get away from whatever or whomever was by the tent's entrance. But then why did they walk, not run from the tent? Were they simply unable to run in the condition of the snow?
Or did the two members outside of the tent, Semen Zolotarev and Nicolai Thibeaux-Brignolle, thought to be relieving themselves, have a fight outside the tent and frighten the others? This also wouldn't explain why they ventured so far from the tent. Unless, one of those men went crazy and drove everyone out. No evidence of this though. It seems likely that they experienced a threat outside of their group, though whether it was a sound, a sight, strange gravity, or attackers, human or non-human, I have no idea. Whatever it was, it was terrifying.
But I do have an idea of how the members of the group died, and what can be deduced from what their autopsies strangely left out.
The people in the ravine obviously lived longer than the others (as they had stripped clothing from the others). And their injuries are the worst.
Maybe everyone went to the cedar tree, and began collecting firewood. The two men who died there, Yuri Doroshenko and Yuri Krivonischenko, had injuries explainable by climbing the tree and maybe falling from the tree. Maybe they were trying to see the tent or maybe they were afraid of something on the ground. That the side of the tree facing the tent had broken branches (evidence of climbing), doesn't necessarily mean that they were looking at the tent. Since they were coming from the direction of the tent, it would make sense that they would climb at the first part of the tree that they reached. It's possible that they were afraid of one or more members of their own group. Or, that they climbed the tree to break off branches to use for firewood. I think that they were both trying to view the tent and break off branches for firewood. The minor burns on their bodies/clothes could be from the fire they made. Regardless, items of their clothing were taken from them. Whether they were already dead or were in a weakened state, it is unknown.
Why did three members of the group then walk toward the tent, and the other remaining members go in the opposite direction? I don't understand this. Maybe there was just a difference of opinion on whether it was safe to return to the tent.
And why do the three members who went toward the tent (Igor Dyatlov, Zinaida Kolmogorova, and Rustem Slobodin) have similar injuries to their hands and faces? I think the three that went toward the tent fought with one another. They bruised their knuckles in the fight, and received blows to their faces from one another. Maybe all three fought one another, or maybe Igor and Zenaida fought with Rustem. It was suggested Igor and Zenaida were close, though not sexual together. Maybe they were dating. Rustem Slobodin was found with a knife in his pocket, and Igor Dyatlov had an incision on his right ankle--maybe Rustem cut Igor. There was also bruising on Igor Dyatlov's front and back ankles, suggesting maybe he was trying to get away from Rustem, while Rustem was on the ground grabbing and cutting at his ankles. Regardless, Igor Dyatlov is found first along the way from the cedar tree to the tent, so he probably died first. I think Rustem was trying to remove Igor's jacket, which would explain why the jacket is unzipped and Igor is clenching it so tightly, to prevent it from being taken from him. Rustem dies next along the trail, and Zinaida gets the furthest toward the tent. Maybe she fought, but then left the two men fighting and made for the tent. Maybe the reason the three of them fought was due to their upset over the deaths of their two friends, Yuri Doroshenko and Yuri Krivonischenko, under the cedar tree. Maybe they fought due to a love triangle between them. The bar-shaped wound on Zinaida's side could have been from a thick tree branch.
All speculation, of course, but I do think they fought one another and it's obvious that they were in a highly upsetting situation, with their two friends dead and whatever happened at the tent to begin with. As their cause of death is hypothermia, I think they injured each other, also causing further exhaustion, and so they simply walked as far as they could before freezing to death. Expect Igor, whom, I believe, Rustem fought and left laying on the ground to freeze, after unsuccessfully trying to remove his jacket.
As for the four remaining members of the group, Lyudmila Dubinina, Alexander Kolevatov, Nikolai Thibeaux-Brignolle, and Semyon Zolotaryov, who went in the opposite direction of the tent from the cedar tree, their deaths are more mysterious.
It seems someone cut or ripped out Lyudmila Dubinina's tongue, as blood was found in her stomach. Everyone is in a state of extreme duress, devestated by the death of their friends (they knew about the deaths of the two Yuri's by the cedar tree), cold, hungry/thirsty, somewhat frostbitten, and frightened. They must have felt desperate. I'm a woman, so as much as I don't want to stereotype the woman of these four, she may have been more hysterical than the others. Maybe not. Perhaps she wouldn't be quiet, speaking incessantly of all her fears. Perhaps she was angry, and blaming one or more others in the group. What we do know is that Semyon Zolotaryov is found wearing her jacket. We also know he had elite military training, and had managed to survive in very desperate situations in the past. Perhaps he knew that positive morale was essential. Maybe he threatened to cut her tongue out if she wouldn't stop talking, then did so. Maybe the two of them struggled, falling together deeper into the ravine. The injuries to their chests are similar. Both have broken ribs on the right side on their chests. This could have been from falling atop one another in the ravine, maybe with Lyudmila Dubinina facing away from Semyon Zolotaryov, he fell on top of her while going after her. Her chest injuries were worse than his, and her ribs of her left side were broken as well. She dies kneeling at the edge of the ravine as if trying to get out of it on an impossible side of it.
As Zolotaryov's injuries from the fall were significant, he likely cut out her tongue and took her jacket before the fall. The injuries of the others, Aleksander Kolevatov and Nikolay Thibeaux Brignolle, could have been inflicted by Zolotaryov as well.
Aleksander Kolevatov's injuries seem to have been done by Zolotaryov, as a "snapped neck and blow behind the ear is a common sign of killing performed by special forces." His jacket was unbuttoned and unzipped. Perhaps he was trying to protect Lyudmila Dubinina and Zolotaryov snapped his neck and hit him with a thick branch (blunt object). Then Zolotaryov started to remove his jacket, but was interrupted.
Nikolai Thibeaux-Brignolle's injuries also could have been inflicted by Zolotaryov. Maybe he and Kolevatov together tried to defend Dubinina.
Then, with Aleksander Kolevatov and Nikolai Thibeaux-Brignolle defeated, Zolotaryov tries to remove Kolvatov's jacket and Duninina attacks him. Zolotaryov then turns around and starts after Dubinina, taking her jacket instead, and then ripping or cutting out her tongue. She tries to get away from him. Then they fall into the deeper part of the ravine, causing fatal injuries to both. Zolotaryov then tries to write something down, possibly an explanation of why they fled the tent, but dies before he can do so.
I think the missing eyes of Zolotaryov and Dubinina could have been from scavengers, but I'm not sure.
It makes sense to me why Vozrojdenniy, the medical examiner who conducted the autopsies, would have left things out. It was the late 50's, in a small town area. People cared about one another's feelings more than exposing truths at all costs. If he would have said that the injuries of seven of the members were likely inflicted by one another, it would have been devastating to the grieving families. It also would have been an upset to the government in the case of Zolotaryov, as he had been awarded a number of elite military metals. Vozrojdenniy may have feared the government would kill him and simply find another examiner to produce less embarrassing results. It would also have become a blame game, of pointing fingers at "bad" members of the group. Perhaps Vozrojdenniy also understood that people behave much differently in desperate situations than they normally would. Murder is a horrible crime, but when someone is trying to survive and feels it's him or me, it is well within human nature to do what it takes to survive. And Zolotaryov would have known this better than anyone. Self-preservation is always appropriate.
None of this, however, explains why the group suddenly left the tent in the dark, freezing cold night, leaving behind shoes, jackets, and other things necessary for their survival. I have no idea why they did this. But I do think that whatever the trigger situation was, it dissipated, which is why three of the members tried to return to the tent.
Nigel Evans
14-03-2017 23:22 (GMT)
Expert - the probability is all BL but more than one of them some hours apart (it takes time to build a den).
Nigel Evans
14-03-2017 18:12 (GMT)
Expert - i haven't deserted it But the tent event wasn't lightning and the nearby ski touring group claimed to have seen a light and heard a bang on that night. So probability is all BL.
Nigel Evans
14-03-2017 15:20 (GMT)
Expert - we'll have to disagree about the fire, it would illuminate the trees around and above..
EXpert - [ the fire was set behind the cedar, but could not be seen from the side of the tent ]
I'm not sure that would fool the aliens...
Nigel Evans
12-03-2017 15:17 (GMT)
Expert - Part 04 via google translate - http://www.viafanzine.jor.br/site_vf/pag/5/dyatlov_part04.htm is the best discussion i've seen so far on the various theories (but it's fair to say that the author likes the ball lightning theory and gives it a lot of space).
As to the question, how could ball lightning be responsible for the three events, tent, cedar, ravine. Well my thoughts are :- 1. Various classifications for the witnessed events including "navigators". Because that's what is observed. 2. The injuries of the cedar two might have occurred at the tent and been the cause of them fleeing? Interesting that they descended in a line abreast, maybe one or two needed assistance from another's shoulder? So possibly only two events to explain.
Nigel Evans
12-03-2017 12:03 (GMT)
Expert - imo, it's a product of the culture of fear that existed in the authoritarian Soviet Union at that time. Ivanov wanted to state "the fireball theory is the best one" but was overruled because it was a semi fantastic theory that couldn't be proved and could result in harsh outcomes for his superiors (google the 1937 Soviet Census). Also the event killed all the witnesses which considerably amplified the confusion of course.
Nigel Evans
08-03-2017 15:34 (GMT)
Regarding an explanation for the horizontal lines, i'd opt for snow/graupnel passing across the view in high winds. A max speed of 70 mph = 31meters per sec = 30cm in 1/100 of a sec, so depending on the shutter speed and and the speed of the wind you could get a single snowflake travelling some distance in the exposure. Support for this would be the slight change in direction on the right hand side of the photo as the wind follows the ground. But not conclusive of course.
Nigel Evans
08-03-2017 15:05 (GMT)
Expert - and the "heads" are peppered with white dots, possibly the weave of the fabric letting intense light through. I'd opt for fabric.
Expert
08-03-2017 13:02 (GMT)
1) Camera angle
2) back head color line is very clear. Not blurred .. It mean bright light lost its strength by a barrier - tent fabric.
Expert
08-03-2017 12:48 (GMT)
What is overwork in my claiming ?
Expert
08-03-2017 12:47 (GMT)
Correct ^^ 1.5 METER
Nigel Evans
08-03-2017 12:47 (GMT)
Expert - let's not overwork this. We can agree to disagree.
Expert
08-03-2017 12:45 (GMT)
Nigel /
Now, you need to try it.
(1) Make 7 cm sphere(Camera lense) with your fingers . (2) Idendtify if you can put 3 humans heads in the sphere what Meter behind .
- Maybe, you can put 3 heads in sphere only 1M behind.
Expert
08-03-2017 12:45 (GMT)
Nigel /
Now, you need to try it.
(1) Make 7 cm sphere(Camera lense) with your fingers . (2) Idendtify if you can put 3 humans heads in the sphere what Meter behind .
- Maybe, you can put 3 heads in sphere only 1M behind.
Expert
08-03-2017 12:28 (GMT)
the tent was ... width - 180 length - 400 height - 100 It s impossible ?
Nigel Evans
08-03-2017 12:19 (GMT)
Expert - if they are heads then the photographer is 6 feet behind and approx 3 feet above. A bit difficult to arrange in the tent! Easier outside.
Expert
08-03-2017 11:22 (GMT)
Nigel /
I need more detailed explaination.
Expert
08-03-2017 11:11 (GMT)
Nigel /
I am saying the first photo, I am not saying order between the 12 photos.
but Why 1 photo couldn't be taken in tent ?
Nigel Evans
08-03-2017 10:51 (GMT)
Expert - i don't think there's any order to the sequence of photos (last one taken days before).
If the objects at the bottom are heads then it couldn't have been taken in the tent. But they could be pieces of tent fabric.
Expert
08-03-2017 07:29 (GMT)
the first photo would be taken in tent.
Expert
08-03-2017 07:18 (GMT)
I guess the photo was taken in tent. (camera angel , back head color) If so, the photo would be taken,, right before the tent was torn ..
Looks like three heads looking at ball lightning to me!
Case closed imo.
Nigel Evans
07-03-2017 11:05 (GMT)
Expert - but her head is turned left side up and she lost her nose, upper lip and left side of her cheek. Several crows could have done it in less than 5 minutes.
Nigel Evans
06-03-2017 20:41 (GMT)
Expert - i think that's a good theory, YK lost his nose, SZ his eyes and LD eyes and tongue to crows https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooded_crow before the snow covered the bodies.
Expert - where is your source for the claim that the Mansi state that many reindeer lost their tongues? Do you have a link?
From that site i posted and Svetlana Oss's book, i've been reading the translation of the pathologists report for NTB. His head injuries were more serious than described here, as well as the damage to the temporal bone, the base of the skull was cracked (anterior cranial fossa) and the fornix broken (this lies at the centre of the brain). Hence the references to similarity with being hit by a car or shockwave. N.B. the damage being extensive enough that the head had lost symmetry...
The injuries to LD, SZ and NTB seem to be either due to :- 1. Falling from height (i've read 60 feet) but no broken limbs? 2. Explosion. 3. Being hit by something like a car.
The pathologist thought that NTB although unconcious could have had signs of life for 2 to 3 hours which (in my theory) explains how ID stayed long enough to get hypothermia.
There were many articles - 3 members ( ZD, ID, RS) tried to come back to the tent. but I don't agree it .. they tried to pick up survival stuffs like wear, foot wear, torn tent .. maybe.. that would be ZD's Idea.
I will explain whole course next..
Expert
06-03-2017 12:16 (GMT)
Alien would use electronic power like lightning . If they were interstellar travelers , the tech would be very easy technology .
Expert
06-03-2017 12:10 (GMT)
I counted whole attack number by alien craft . They would be attacked 5-6 times.
JD RS ID they all would be attacked by each 3 attack Cedar attack - 1 Ravine attack - 1 or 2
whole attack times - 5 or 6
Expert
06-03-2017 11:56 (GMT)
EoinOC /
Good point
I think they dug snow on hill.. snow file collapsed in 20 days. (as the tent was discovered 20 days after)
their footprints was frozen instantly.
someones were discovered under snow -> much snow would be filed up tree , those snow would fall down As time pass .
As I know,,, Ivanov said to close one. " Sky ball is responsible for the incident , whether it is Alien craft or Secret weapon or Natural disaster .. " He assumed those 3 forces . He did not say skyball was ball lightning
Expert
06-03-2017 11:27 (GMT)
Nigel /
I feel awkward ,, now.. I couldn't find any sentences related to my question( Did Ivanov conclude the UFO as a nature phenomenon like ball lightning ? )
"A former police officer named Lev Ivanov who led the Inquest in 1959 published an article in 1990 and admitted that the investigative team had seen “flying spheres” themselves! Invanov believed in a paranormal explanation for the groups deaths involving UFOs."
Nigel Evans
06-03-2017 10:03 (GMT)
Expert - Yes, Ivanov thought the "fireballs" provided the best answer. The rescue party saw one and radioed HQ that they were concerned for their safety.
EoinOC - the mountain gets high winds, so the snowfall isn't uniform? The wind drifts would cover some of the path and leave some of it exposed?
DS - maybe Ivanov was wrong, maybe he wasn't. All we can do here is discuss. Could be worth remembering that someone has gone to effort to provide this website and we should all use it with respect.
Expert
06-03-2017 09:18 (GMT)
Nigel /
?
Where is the answer in your sentences ?? MY Question is that Ivanov concluded the sky ball in Nature phenomenon ? If my English was wrong , I change sentence - Ivanov concluded the sky ball was a nature phenomenon like Ball lightning ?
DS
06-03-2017 08:57 (GMT)
Nigel I see that you are Australian too, though I may have obliterated you and you're alter-ego's on the forums perhaps you would like to argue your points face to face. My name is Darryl S I live in Adelaide Australia I would LOVE to meet all three of yourself.
DS
06-03-2017 08:47 (GMT)
Or a Yeti, or a nuclear bomb, or a ...you get the point. evidence people do you see it?
DS
06-03-2017 08:47 (GMT)
Tantalizing piece of evidence though...As I doubt ball lightning held them at gunpoint and marched them through the snow.
DS
06-03-2017 08:44 (GMT)
No idea but they're there, could have rained in between and frozen them solid.
DS
06-03-2017 08:43 (GMT)
FINALLY someone with a brain Nigel Teedy mcExpert where are you??
EoinOC
06-03-2017 08:37 (GMT)
Can anyone clarify the following: the image of the tent, as discovered by the search party, clearly shows it partially buried in snow. The bodies of the 9 hikers were also covered with snow. How was it that the footsteps leading away from the tent were also not buried in snow?
Nigel Evans
05-03-2017 18:58 (GMT)
DS - it's good to have a hobby, gives you a purpose in life. Btw who is MODS? No one has used that handle?
DS
05-03-2017 16:07 (GMT)
NIGEL EVANS I hope you were smart enough to use an alias. You cannot hide the evidence of what you're doing. Now I'm going to look into YOU my friend. Congratulations dumbass you've turned an OCD investigative genius against you.
DS
05-03-2017 16:03 (GMT)
MODS WHERE ARE YOU??
ATTENTION MODS/ALL INVESTIGATORS I put it forth that the two biggest shitposters NIGEL and EXPERT on this site are THE SAME PERSON. scroll to roughly 1/4 way from the bottom of page
19-10-2016 04:06 (GMT)
First appearance of expert. Judge their interactions for yourself
Nigel Evans
05-03-2017 11:54 (GMT)
Expert - yes, he was interviewed as an old man after Russia had opened up. He said that his opinion was that the fireballs were the cause but his superiors didn't like that and forced a change to - "unknown compelling force" and material had to be removed from the report. Svetlana Oss has seen the same report and noted that it has been stitched twice. Ivanov expressed guilt that he couldn't be candid with the relatives of the deceased.
DS
05-03-2017 03:53 (GMT)
I won't let you do this Nigel I will log in every day and expose you
Nigel Evans
04-03-2017 19:35 (GMT)
DS/me - Ball lightning was apparently the chosen solution of the local mansi people and Lev Ivanov the police investigator. It's one of the very few theories that explains all the facts.
If that pisses you off that's just tough buddy. If you don't agree then give us your better theory.
For the record expert and i are different posters.
DS
04-03-2017 19:23 (GMT)
Reading your posts gives me chills now i know its just one guy chatting to himself
DSme
04-03-2017 19:18 (GMT)
But I don't. people get falsely convicted for murders all the time because of passionate (yet tunnel vision impaired) investigators like you. wake up bro pay attention fuck.
DS is me dickhead
04-03-2017 19:12 (GMT)
dude. give up. you have tunnel vision. investigators get it all the time. you want to believe ball lightning did this horrific crime so badly i almost feel bad for exposing you.
DS
04-03-2017 19:07 (GMT)
(UPDATE: SCROLL DOWN AND SEE NIGEL/EXPERT IS FULL OF SHIT) MODS WHERE ARE YOU??
ATTENTION MODS/ALL INVESTIGATORS I put it forth that the two biggest shitposters NIGEL and EXPERT on this site are THE SAME PERSON. scroll to roughly 1/4 way from the bottom of page
19-10-2016 04:06 (GMT)
First appearance of expert. Judge their interactions for yourself
Nigel Evans
04-03-2017 14:24 (GMT)
Expert - it was apparently quite a burn, the skin was charred down to the underlying tissue.
One of the features of BL is the variance between harmless through to ultra deadly. As said before the luxury of the theory is that as we don't know what it is, it can be stretched to fit the evidence because the accounts are so variable.
Nigel Evans
04-03-2017 08:33 (GMT)
Expert - we don't know enough about the DP lights i guess. The Hessdalen lights are better studied https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hessdalen_lights and they can last for over an hour "The duration of the phenomenon may be from a few seconds to longer than an hour".
I've been looking again at YK's hand injuries and questioning the reason that he bit both of the backs of his hands (very hard, with the second bite he died with the epidermis in his mouth). I think he bit his hands because of the excruciating pain of the burn on his leg. So if he was concious after he received the burn, he must have been concious when it happened?....
Nigel Evans
03-03-2017 18:36 (GMT)
Expert - "How could the nature force drive them to the forest with bare foot or slight wear ? "
Hi, look at that video you posted and ask yourself what would you do if it was heading for your tent?
Nigel Evans
03-03-2017 12:19 (GMT)
DS - can i assume then that you don't like the ball lightning theory?
DS
03-03-2017 01:41 (GMT)
Read about half of there conversations so far and yep. Nigel. Expert. Whoever you are. You should be ashamed of yourself, can't believe I wasted so much time on your bulls*#t theory and the bulls#*t games you play to try and prove it. No more from you. No more ball lightning bulls#*t until you post your probable sequence with all evidence supported. Am I clear? Never gonna happen though so please just leave the Dyatlov case alone so we can try to find the real answer to the question that brought us all here.
DS
03-03-2017 00:12 (GMT)
bye bye Nigel
me
03-03-2017 00:10 (GMT)
ATTENTION ALL INVESTIGATORS; I put it forth that the two biggest shitposters NIGEL and EXPERT on this site are THE SAME PERSON. scroll to roughly 1/4 way from the bottom of page
19-10-2016 04:06 (GMT)
First appearance of expert. Judge their interactions for yourself
DS
02-03-2017 23:58 (GMT)
Nigel/expert would you please provide your sequence of events. What are you avoiding?
Nigel Evans
02-03-2017 20:52 (GMT)
me - hi, feel free to criticise and contest. I'm disappointed if people feel they're shut out of the discussion. But lets keep it polite, yes?
and Expert isn't my sidekick, he has his own opinions, some we share some we don't.
Btw the KGB, spent a lot of time investigating the DPI (months) because they lost one of their own and when they found him they closed the mountain for three years to continue monitoring what was happening there. Imo that rules them out.
DS
02-03-2017 19:56 (GMT)
I too have thought a lot about the kgb being involved or to blame somehow. There's only hints of their involvement but you'd expect so much from the kgb so who knows. A good question for any kgb theory would be why didnt they destroy all the evidence completely? (Given the isolation and ruthlessness of the kgb to keep secrets
me
02-03-2017 19:22 (GMT)
Lurker on this forum for a while but was too affraid of Nigel and his really supportive sidekick expert. Thank you DS you have raised couple good question i will try to answer. I think it was KGB and military but still much to understand
me
02-03-2017 19:08 (GMT)
read a lot of DS and Nigel fight and i feel he does bring up some new points. There are many theory that use same evidence as BL how can you be so sure?
DS I really want to hear Nigel full story too
DS
02-03-2017 17:50 (GMT)
If your theory is plausible and fits the evidence, I'll never bother you again and write you a lengthy apology letter.
DS
02-03-2017 17:46 (GMT)
I'll take it one step further: I promise to post my sequence directly after yours before I question your theory at all. We can have them back to back for all (who are hopefully not yet as certain as we may be) to judge.
DS
02-03-2017 17:38 (GMT)
I'm not going to stop until you do. or you can concede and admit that your theory doesn't fit with the evidence in which case I'll just post it.
DS
02-03-2017 17:33 (GMT)
I promise you a minimum of one sequence as soon as you reveal yours.
DS
02-03-2017 17:31 (GMT)
THEN IT SHOULDN'T BE HARD FOR YOU
Nigel Evans
02-03-2017 11:38 (GMT)
DS - this page is rich with ideas from me as to a possible sequence of events.
and is very empty of ideas from you.
It's time for you to state your ideas or shut up.
DS
02-03-2017 11:22 (GMT)
Worry about your own theory Nigel it needs your help badly. I've got a couple of possible sequences that involve no unexplained phenomena and guess what the evidence fits with them. I've already asked you many times though so would you be so kind?
DS
02-03-2017 11:14 (GMT)
state a possible sequence of events and include all physical evidence or shut up.
Nigel Evans
02-03-2017 10:40 (GMT)
DS - "You cannot expect me to take you seriously if you only cherry pick the bits that suit your theory "
Absolutely true. That's why i don't take you seriously because that's exactly what you're doing.
The pathologist was quite clear on what caused the chest injuries and it wasn't fighting.
Plus you have no explanation for the deaths by the fire and none for the exit from the tent.
You're not just cherry picking you're grasping at a single straw that three of the party have bruises on their hands that can be attributed to punching, and nothing else.
Lets hear your end to end explanation for the dpi.
DS
02-03-2017 02:38 (GMT)
You cannot expect me to take you seriously if you only cherry pick the bits that suit your theory
DS
02-03-2017 02:31 (GMT)
Nigel: Give me a sequence of events (including all the physical evidence) that fits your theory and I will retract everything I've said.
This goes for all the theorists: You must be able to apply all the evidence to your theory and present at least a plausible sequence of events or your theory will only lead to more questions than answers. And wont stand up to scrutiny from somebody like me.
DS
01-03-2017 17:02 (GMT)
LOL now I'm done, read back through it all and answer or disprove my questions. Or continue ignoring them and I'll compile them all into a list for future copy and pasting whenever you continue pushing your theory on this case.
DS
01-03-2017 16:57 (GMT)
You heard it here first folks: well documented proof that lightning balls are afraid of fire.
DS
01-03-2017 16:54 (GMT)
Two days and I can see that most of the known evidence doesn't fit your sequence of events in the slightest.
DS
01-03-2017 16:48 (GMT)
No more time wasted disproving your theory Nigel. I've done enough.
DS
01-03-2017 16:47 (GMT)
Once again, you are saying the men received injuries consistant with fighting injuries (noted by the only expert to ever examine the bodies firsthand nonetheless) to the backs of their hands by digging. If this were the case it would be their fingertips that received the most damage.
DS
01-03-2017 16:43 (GMT)
To stay warm? So you agree the cold was they're biggest perceived threat at the time?
DS
01-03-2017 16:40 (GMT)
And remember the film had three empty frames left. yet he only took a singular picture of the most elusive and deadly balls of light ever imagined. I think you're stories cooked mate. Your evidence proves nothing and you rely on speculations and assumptions. Sorry it had to end this way.
Nigel Evans
01-03-2017 16:33 (GMT)
DS - well who is getting the more ridiculous, someone who accepts that BL is well documented or someone who doesn't? Have you looked at the wikipedia link for it?
No i'm saying the rescuers - ID, ZK and possibly RS used their hands as shovels and tunneled through snow, ice, twigs and branches to remove their buried friends. They're the ones with the injuries to their hands and face and are not decomposed. The ravine four were too injured to punch their way out of a paper bag.
A number of camera frames aren't published on this site. These consist of exposed film that shows nothing but a black background with a white dot. There is conjecture whether these are bad exposures or true photos perhaps of the night sky.
As you say you've only been researching this for two days....
"How does the fire at the cedar fit into your theory?" I can say with some confidence that they lit the fire to stay warm....
DS
01-03-2017 16:28 (GMT)
Looking at your favorite blurry photo again there's a good sign of the reported cracked lens. Have you investigated this at all?
DS
01-03-2017 16:20 (GMT)
Agreed that no one will ever know. But we can also work together to agree on what is impossible based upon the evidence found.
DS
01-03-2017 16:13 (GMT)
In the tent? Perfect. so according to your theory: he took a single blurry photo of the ball. packed up the the tripod and then returned it to the tent. You can't even prove the photo was taken that night, let alone what is in the photo. The photo beforehand however, tells us much more about their last day alive: It was cold as balls and the weather was terrible.
DS
01-03-2017 16:02 (GMT)
"Well documented"-show me. My statement stands that you cannot prove it exists. You're saying that the men PUNCHED their way through snow. This is getting ridiculous Nigel. look at the photo's and tell me again they weren't decomposed at the time of autopsy. Many many more pieces that don't fit into your story at all. I've only been researching this for two days, you've been at it for over a year and you never tried to fit all the evidence into your theory??? for example: How does the fire at the cedar fit into your theory?
Nigel Evans
01-03-2017 15:40 (GMT)
In the tent.
DS
01-03-2017 15:36 (GMT)
Does it say where the camera was found?
Nigel Evans
01-03-2017 15:28 (GMT)
From the page :-
There are 6 films available today in The Dyatlov Pass foundation. There was one more film but it is lost. They have developed it and the pictures are exist but the film itself is missing. Apart from the well known pictures available on the Internet, the films have some rather srange shots which we will discuss below.
The exact number of the cameras in the group is not known. The inventory of the scene lists 3 cameras and there is one tetimony of yet another camera.
The camera № 488797 (Krivonischenko’s) was found with it’s color filter broken and it was attached to a tripod.
Nigel Evans
01-03-2017 15:23 (GMT)
DS - i've no problem with criticism, no need for aggression though. No one will ever know for sure what happened. No need for armchair investigators to get heated...
You say that the ravine male members weren't preservered enough. It is recorded that NTB had two bruises and AK had bleeding in the knee. If they had had cuts and bruises on their hands they would have been noticed and recorded. The evidence is not consistent with fighting but is consistent with the remaining able bodied members franctically digging the ravine four out of (tons?) of snow and hurting their hands on ice, twigs, branches etc. Ditto the face marks on ID, SZ nd RS. The report consistently uses the words abrasions and scratches to describe the marks on all three faces. Not bruises. Imo this is consistent with rescuing the injured from under the snow and not consistent with fighting.
The ball lightning is a well documented phenomena and both myself and Expert have posted videos of it on this page. BL is well documented as burning and exploding with significant force. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_lightning .
"cooperation and death" - cooperation - they voluntarily shared clothing. death - they removed clothing from the dead to assist the living.
Svetlana Oss's website - she is a Russian journalist who speaks English and the author of the book on the DPI "Don't go there". You might like to read it as she supports your view of death by violence by humans. Personally i think her conclusion is rubbish but she has researched the case well accessing all the official archives etc.
DS
01-03-2017 15:15 (GMT)
I couldn't find the tripod, saw the word assumption used an awful lot though.
DS
01-03-2017 15:04 (GMT)
That link is pure garbage. She makes her assumptions based on snow. in a picture. of a crimescene that was 25 days old. I refuse to read any further.
DS
01-03-2017 14:51 (GMT)
You cannot come up with any reasonable explanations to my questions. And since my questions are based on solid facts and findings that can hardly be disputed, they are very hard to dismiss are they not? Haven't you wondered about these things yourself?
DS
01-03-2017 14:45 (GMT)
"there are other causes, cooperation, order of death." care to elaborate on that?
DS
01-03-2017 14:41 (GMT)
I'm sorry if I'm aggressive with my arguments. We have much in common as we both just want to know the answer to a simple question: why? I have based my theory around the clothing absolutely. but also the injuries and other solid evidence (the fire, the sub zero temps, things that actually exist). It's a shame the three den men weren't preserved as well as the others. As I'm sure their hands would have answered many questions. All of your evidence for the hotspot could be proof of almost anything. a flying saucer. a bomb blast. What exactly is "consistant" about ball lightning? You can't even proove it exists.
Nigel Evans
01-03-2017 12:42 (GMT)
DS - wow a lot of posts to read there. "LD's chest had fractures on both sides", yes that's simply explained by the explosion. The shockwave could simultaneously fracture several parts of the chest with a compression phase and a vacuum phase.
Evidence for ball lightning, the hot spot of course which is consistent with the snow being melted in high winds (ridges), and the burnt tree tops (but that could be lightning also). The numerous tent slits all at a similar height indicate they were watching something as does the tripod and the in use cameras and photos of night sky with just a dot of white light. The burns and ravine deaths by shockwave are all consistent with ball lightning/lightning.
SZ was placed with the group to ensure the safe return of valuable state assets, particularly perhaps AK as they would be getting near to the Finnish border and defection was a concern of the state. His orders would be to ensure their protection not kill them if he got cold.... Even with a flail chest and the knowledge he was dying he was trying to leave a note to those that found him a professional to the end.
You put great store in that they wore each others clothes as proof of violence. I don't see that at all there are other causes, cooperation, order of death.
That they were found 6-10 meters from the den is imo support for the theory that they were placed there by the remaining able bodied members who dug them out of the snow. It was a nursing station. In particular the bodies were laid so that their heads were only one foot apart. This was to monitor them.
RS didn't have a double skull fracture, only one side was fractured, he had haemorhages on both sides. This can be easily explained by the explosion theory, the shockwave cracked his skull and pushed the other side into the den wall or he landed on the other side of his head. Ditto AK had a snapped neck from being thrown through the air and landing on his head.
Feel free to attack further.
Expert
01-03-2017 12:13 (GMT)
DS /
I don't think some hiker ate some hiker haha they all died only 6-8 hours after dinner.
You need to explain how the first event happened in the tent. (by some human)
Expert
01-03-2017 12:06 (GMT)
DS /
I am not a ball lightning Expert, haha (you, Ask Nigel that rather than me) and I am still investigating ball lightning or lightning injuries. and I am not sure that Sky ball around the tent was nature phenomenon . Rather artificial object of aliens .
but I suggest you : Lightning doesn't have only power . but these forces- power, electronic,heat
It won't hit a direction because Lightning happen by streaming of electron (it could hit right and left side of the skull in same time)
My drawing might be around ending . But give me time to make clear conclusion haha
Expert
01-03-2017 09:57 (GMT)
DS /
Their wears, stuffs are one of the important points. Of course, I am checking out your opinion to get new idea from other viewer
Expert
01-03-2017 09:35 (GMT)
I believe this incident would be related to sky ball . but (as I said) The problem is Whether The origin of Sky ball is on Nature Phenomenon or on Artificial Object (alien craft). I focus on that. Most presumptions are useless. They are Away from Logic.
Expert
01-03-2017 09:29 (GMT)
This is why I don't want to say this incident could be related to alien attack.
Expert
01-03-2017 09:27 (GMT)
I know that,, Alien is not monster but intelligent lives who have been evolved from other space. but Alien conception on many peoples is Monsters in Star wars or other movies . Evolution would be usual phenomenon because The Universe have common rule of evolution . - Whole star system will have habitable zone in someday as stars are aged -Atomic that composed earth lives Already have been spread in The Universe through Super Nova explosion . like Carbon, Oxygen, Hydrogen, Nitrogen .......(It is mention by Science and it is testified by spectrum analysis) -time gap(age) between star systems range billions years (evolution difference) Our star system is young ( supposed around 5billions ) but some stars were aged around 15billions - in big bang range. Those scientific data say intelligent lives are very common than we think. but Many peoples still think aliens are monsters in Hollywood.
Teddy
01-03-2017 08:52 (GMT)
DS / To your last comment - I don't think so. And also your psychological profiling is like the ball lightning, it can't be proved.
Teddy
01-03-2017 08:46 (GMT)
DS/ I like that you are stating the facts when it comes to clothes rotation, injuries etc. but then you turn to interpretation of how and why did it happen and you are in Wonderland as any other theory. You are saying that what killed them is not what chased them out of the tent but they turned against each other, or rather SZ turned into Mr Hyde?
Teddy
01-03-2017 08:33 (GMT)
DS / "He grabbed her by the scruff of the neck and smashed her against the rock." and then he did the same to himself.
DS / I think they did run and hide. But it wasn't difficult for their murderers to find them, especially with the fire. I think the fire is what fated the group.
Teddy
01-03-2017 08:11 (GMT)
I think what/whoever wanted them dead expected them to die faster. The fire made the murderers go down once again. And finally the hikers better dressed received most of the beating. Like the monster went back again and again to make sure they are or will die. And by monster I mean people, not Yeti and aliens.
Teddy
01-03-2017 08:01 (GMT)
LD died from a fractured rib piercing her heart. If they were beaten at the same time LD would have died long before SZ. Her cause of death is hemorrhage into right atrium of the heart. You can live with so many broken ribs. I am the living proof. I think SZ died relatively long after everybody else.
2) some peoples who experienced the site believed that skyball would be responsible for the incident (Mansi tribe, search group student, official investigator .. some soviet governors)
3)No Evidence of invasion(no foot trace from outer)
So , I focus on that .
but your idea on human action (murder possibility) is a possibility on my idea .
I discounted some possibilities -animal attack, Yeti, fire in the tent, avalanche , infra sound ..
but I still don't exclude human possibility.
it's possible in the course. (Criminal Possibility in nervous circumstance would be much higher than Usual circumstance) but it won't be a basical disaster that drove them into the forest.
Anyway, I am checking out your opinions.
Expert
01-03-2017 00:34 (GMT)
starting point is the key of the mystery .
Mansi seemingly knew everything . They knew there was something wrong around the region. but even Dyatlov groups discounted their opinion , considering just folktale or superstition. and wanted thrill , adventure. At last,which was connected to their tragic. Mansi were afraid of the Mountain Naming it Otorten.
Expert
01-03-2017 00:23 (GMT)
Seemingly but Surely, this incident must be relative to Sky ball .
Problem is the origin of Sky ball - Whether it is originated on nature or artificial technology .
How did the ball cause them to be scared ? that would be the point relative to this incident .
Starting point (from tent) is solution of everything .
Nigel Evans
28-02-2017 23:38 (GMT)
DS - Tell me more about the holes in my theory.
Teddy - LD and SZ have the same injuries from the same event?
Teddy
28-02-2017 22:37 (GMT)
Although I can't see the hikers killig each other in a brawl over clothing DS said something that stuck in my mind "whatever or whoever killed LD wasn't enough of an immediate threat for SZ to want to leave, and gave him enough time to retrieve her clothing before it/they attacked him"
Nigel Evans
28-02-2017 20:52 (GMT)
DS - we'll have to agree to disagree, the pathologist was quite clear about the injuries to the ravine four and he didn't mention LD being repeatedly smashed against a rock. He did say that she and SZ had experienced high energy trauma like in a car accident or the shockwave from a bomb and that she probably died before SZ, hence imo the transfered clothing by those left still standing. SZ was the best dressed member of the group from the beginning to the end, he had no reason to resort to violence even if the other strong and fit male members would have allowed it. Also some of the clothing connected with the den was found hanging unused. They were warm in the den? The bodies weren't heavily decomposed, they had been frozen solid for most of their time under the snow. NTB is recorded as having a bruise on the upper lip and his extensive skull fracture had no tissue damage to explain an impact. They didn't take a wrong direction down the mountain, the base camp held 55kg of food for the return journey, a mandolin, a spare pair of skis and little else. They deliberately headed to the forest to shelter from the wind, make a fire and watch the tent (from the cedar) for an opportunity to return to it once the threat that had caused them to leave had gone away. Granted the campfire versus the den suggests a disagreement, but it doesn't have to be so. They could have built the den with the plan to rotate people between it and those keeping watch at the campfire/cedar.
Nigel Evans
28-02-2017 17:42 (GMT)
DS - keep going as much as you want
But the reason that the Soviet Army suffered such huge losses in WW2 was in part due to their battle strategy which favoured hitting the enemy as hard as possible above conserving resources including manpower. One of the ways this was achieved was that in battles the rear guard was composed of NKVD (the forerunner of the KGB) who shot any Russian soldier that dared to retreat. The ordinary Russian soldier had a choice of dying going forward or dying going back. It would be my expectation that survival rates of NKVD were much better. N.B. it was much the same for the ordinary German soldier fighting on the Russian front with the SS taking the place of the NKVD. It was a tough war...
When the rescue party reached the tent they recorded signs of urination some distance from it, so it's a good theory that SZ and NTB had popped out for a pee just at the right moment and hence were fully dressed. Also the footsteps indicate that one or two of them joined the main group further down the slope to support that theory. Also SZ has no injuries consistent with brawling, in fact only ID, RS and ZK have.
Expert
28-02-2017 15:37 (GMT)
It have been reported by UFO witnesses - unknown phenomenon like car doesn't work or .. human lose consciousness .......... they would experience unknown technology . and they would be attacked by artificial lightning around Cedar or Ravine
This is giant ball lightning video taken in Siberia . My wonder is .. These ball could make 9 hikers feel panic mood , Causing them to flee from tent to forest At 30' C below 0 with bare foot or slight wears ? ? ? What a cute ball !
The sky ball hovering around the tent must make them super scared . Bizarre life came out of the craft or caused unknown fear .
I am reading now the Portugal site through google translation .. here is a good suggestion by a search group student . ...........
Mikhail Sharavin (UPI student, along with Boris Slobtsov, found the dyatlovtsy tent): "I have an opinion on the question of why they left the tent so urgently: these were probably factors that affected them. They could not breathe. If there was a displacement of the snow, they would not run in such a situation. I think it was the factors associated with the unknown and the inability to continue staying there. They could not breathe! (...) That's why they ran. "
For hikers, the first factor that affected them in relation to the Object was the psychological commotion. Such an object was by no means familiar to the Dyatlovtsy, being for them something inexplicable and unpredictable, and therefore this generated fear and panic. If it represented any understandable technical device, however dangerous it might be, the behavior of young engineers and students would have been different"
Nigel Evans
28-02-2017 13:38 (GMT)
Ball lightning rollers could be of interest wrt the dpi. The Malvern case describes rolling bl with strong mechanical energy, note the burns and burning of hair on one side (YD). An alternative cause for flail chest injuries (like in a car crash)?
Nigel Evans
28-02-2017 13:21 (GMT)
DS - i'd agree that the distribution of clothes is saying something, but i think it's describing the order of death and the nursing efforts of ID and ZK as detailed below. I think they were sufficiently warm in the den = snow cave to undo some clothing and remove gloves.
Nigel Evans
26-02-2017 17:50 (GMT)
Invisible deadly force creating scratches
Nigel Evans
26-02-2017 17:24 (GMT)
Expert - yet again thanking you for a good link! Some of the dpi group had multiple scratches on the face, ZK was found with her face covered in blood from them and an indian professor connects them with ball lightning, well well....
" that is only information you want to hear" and that's the opinion of the mansi and the police investigator.
What are these deer injuries, i don't know about them?
Didn't understand the rest of your post.
Expert
26-02-2017 16:40 (GMT)
Nigel /
Why do you consider only sky ball except for Menk , that is only information you want to hear ^^ ?
Why Did explosion of BL make bizarre injuries around the day ? containing bizarre injuries of deer. and this is a repeated question by me . BL was hovering around the tent , then bl gave hikers time enough to escape from tent and make a fire .. after first attack , Ravine group took some wears from 2 death . and other BL appeared to RaVine hikers (making cold spot around ravine) . and it killed ravine group.
tongue is not soft muscle . but disappeared somewhere ..
As detailed in previous posts, other groups that saw "lights" :- Management at a nearby colliery same week (and heard two explosions). Another ski group in the same area in the same week. The rescue party something like two months later and radioed their concerns to HQ.
This woman took alien photo with hand phone . Even there were Medical evidences . but I don't expect you to believe . .. ^^
Nigel Evans
26-02-2017 13:57 (GMT)
Expert - i don't think the injuries of the ravine four fit with the yeti/menk theory.
No broken limbs, no tissue damage to explain the flail chests and skull fractures. They fit with barotrauma, i.e. the pathologist's report - "like the shockwave from a bomb". The ball lightning theory isn't just supported by the Mansi but by other groups of reliable witnesses who saw lights as well in the same area at the same time and even heard explosions..
But lets try the alien theory out. They flee the tent because a spaceship is hovering nearby, close enough to the ground to melt the snow. Then they light a fire..... One of the several fascinating questions of the dpi is what was it that made them flee and prevented them from returning but unafraid to light a fire? Imo it rules lots of possibilities out like alien, animal, human, any intelligent life, but rules in natural phenomena such as lightning, ball lightning.
I'm not trying to disprove aliens. In an era of smartphones i look forward to the next Voronezh or nothing, either way in the next say 50 years we should have proof. But i don't think they're responsible for ball lightning.
N.B. if you want to look for an alternative theory, military testing, perhaps parachute mines would be a good start, with the high winds dispersing the evidence.
Expert
26-02-2017 06:03 (GMT)
Nigel /
Mansi didn't say that was Yeti (seems the word was mistranslated by Russians) Menk means ''forest giant'' in Mansi language. it could be alien from other world (in the Universe)
Expert - just to restate - It's not "microwaves come from ball lightning" but "ball lightning comes from microwaves".
Nigel Evans
25-02-2017 17:01 (GMT)
Expert - if the microwave energy is sufficiently strong to create a visual plasma at the anti node (BL) then it follows it would be strong enough to excite water molecules nearby (in the snow) and warm them up (melt) just like a microwave oven does. The effect should be circular if the wave system is static.
The same statement can be applied to the (genuine) crop circles were the stems aren't mechanically bent but seem to have folded with heat and steam believed to be due to microwaves and this effect is strongest in the centre and reduces (linearly?) to the circumference.
Seems to be the same thing.
Expert
25-02-2017 16:04 (GMT)
Nigel /
Microwave of Lightning make Ball lightning
Microwave trapped in BL made cold spot (wave type) around the tent.
you did not think (a)example made snow cold spot ?
Nigel Evans
25-02-2017 15:40 (GMT)
Expert - good links, the Alaskan event would fit well with the my theory if a large group of nodes all became excited and visual with variable ground radar detection.
The Turkish events would have to be either genuine or a hoax imo, alien implants that just look like bits of glass pushes me to the hoax side...
N.B. i'm not trying to prove aliens don't exist, just that many ufo sightings might have a natural explanation.
It's not "microwaves come from ball lightning" but "ball lightning comes from microwaves".
Expert
25-02-2017 15:18 (GMT)
And We must totally discount Mansi witnesses about Menk ? personally I don't discount the unknown life
Expert
25-02-2017 14:47 (GMT)
Ball Lightning , Lightning .. the combination could make the incident . I admit it s possible (from some hikers injuries)
but the possibility would be very rare.
1 ] BL around the tent made them scared and they fled from tent to tree . 2 ] then, Lightning hit hikers under tree 3 ] next,,, Other powerful lightning hit hikers around ravine and 2 hikers got bizarre injuries
why were the regional lightning or bl so bizarre around the incident ?
(some deer got vacant eyesokets as well)
Expert
25-02-2017 14:27 (GMT)
Microwave doesn't come only from ball lightning
I doubt Dubinnina bite tongue or BL caused it to be disappeared .
1)she Bite tongue ? ? ? ? ? ?
I bite my tongue in experiment now, haha .. then, I bite Only 1/3 .. How HER Tongue could be pull out ?
2 ) BL or Lightning made it disappeared ?
- I Researched BL or Lightning injuries and couldn't find those injuries - removed eyes or tongues
Of course, Then, the force of lightning could make isolated incident .. but I doubt
Even better would be :- Expert - the bl theory assumes that they stayed at the fire because they were unable to return to the tent because the bl was hovering there, (long enough to soften the snow). Doesn't have to be the same instance of bl that killed them and could have been lightning instead and if it was the same object then if it moved at speed it wouldn't melt the snow.....
Nigel Evans
25-02-2017 12:44 (GMT)
Sandro - personally i'll stick with the idea that they left the tent to escape a threat.
Expert - the bl theory assumes that they stayed at the fire because they were unable to return to the tent because the bl was hovering there, (long enough to soften the snow). Doesn't have to be the same instance of bl that killed them and could have been lightning instead. n.b. ufo observers report "lights" over the fields on the same nights. Google "youtube cropcircle lights".
Expert
25-02-2017 11:59 (GMT)
Nigel /
I read the site written in Portugal language .
my question is ..
why wasn't the cold spot connected from the tent to the forest ? it mean the object rise up ? (before it chased the 9 hikers.)
Nigel Evans
23-02-2017 12:17 (GMT)
Expert - it's one of your links, drop this into google translate and search for "cold spot". http://www.viafanzine.jor.br/site_vf/pag/5/dyatlov_part04.htm
Nigel Evans
23-02-2017 12:05 (GMT)
Expert - "Eyes witness with radar trace. " Yes that's the point, the invisible microwave that can be seen by radar (depending on wavelength) can produce an object (ball lightning) that can be seen visually. I'll have a dig for the hot spot.
Expert
23-02-2017 05:20 (GMT)
I can explain DPI with alien attack . but this is so easy way .. like Pyramid was constructed with aliens . haha I focus on nature phenomenon or human action
Nigel Evans
21-02-2017 08:33 (GMT)
Just re read my post, i meant to say "If an aircraft approaches being a metal object it will disturb the standing wave system and the changes will be seen to move very quickly."
Nigel Evans
16-02-2017 20:14 (GMT)
Building on this, it occurs to me that this is an explanation for UFOs.
Then what if the "ball" can become elongated and form a cigar? What if the the cigar becomes circular and forms a disc? If several antinodes in a line form balls then you have a "string of pearls". The microwave standing wave system might produce radar frequencies and appear on radar. If an aircraft approaches this metal object it will disturb the standing wave system and the changes will be seen to move very quickly.
"Ball lightning, a fireball sometimes observed during lightnings, has remained unexplained. Here we present a comprehensive theory for the phenomenon: At the tip of a lightning stroke reaching the ground, a relativistic electron bunch can be produced, which in turn excites intense microwave radiation. "
N.B. the paper is from Nature a respected scientific journal.
So building on this paper, lightning produces intense microwave energy which can result in cattle mutilations and other effects - "Others57 reported skin redness, vomiting and loss of hair, which are typical results of ionizing radiation".
From historical records it is known that ball lightning can electrocute and explode so it provides a complete theory for the DPI, it can explain the fleeing from the tent, burns, barotrauma, loss of tongue, skin colour, hair loss, vomiting. The rescue from the collapsed den can explain injuries to hands and face consistent with fighting. It's all there.
The local mansi people had it right all along, it was the golden orbs....
Expert
15-02-2017 07:58 (GMT)
Of course, modern sleeping bag must be evolved than then. but I wondered - if they were the experienced hikers, why did not use sleeping bag ? and I wandered it as well - they felt very cold in the tent. but Why 2 Yuris were in slight wears in the tent.
Syed Ikram Abidi said on FB: "Unanswered questions even for gravity theory: 1. The footsteps seemed to show a rather organized descent in group and the number showing all 9 people walking out of tent. 2. The gravity affected them so strongly and yet each of the contents in the tent even their shoes remained "as is" with no signs of sudden departure. And many more... Well thats why it will remain a mystery."
Nigel Evans
14-02-2017 17:42 (GMT)
I've just read the updated "Theories" page which includes an excellent section on Ball Lightning
But wrt the gravity theory or lack of it. Apparently a feature of cattle mutilations is that the animals can be found on snow or mud where there are no sign of any tracks leading to the animal. It's as if they dropped from the sky.... However in the case of the DPI, the footprints would seem to undermine this a little
Nigel Evans
13-02-2017 14:01 (GMT)
I've been thinking about the injuries attributed to fighting, specifically to the hands and the face and have an alternative theory.
These injuries seem to belong solely to ID, RS and ZK.
According to my "ravine explosion theory" these three are the last able bodied members (RS perhaps limited capability).
So what if the explosion resulted in a collapsed den burying them in deep snow?
The remaning three - ID, RS, ZK would try and rescue them and dig them out with their bare hands? They would know that time would be limited and they would have to work fast using their hands as shovels, picking up bruising, cuts and scratches on their hands. This might also involve tunneling resulting in a lot of facial scratches (from ice and twigs). There could perhaps be a further collapse of a rescue tunnel injuring RS who could originally be able bodied?
The rav4 were found in a close group with their heads together (one foot apart). SZ was wearing two items of LD's clothing. This fits with the pathologist's report that SZ outlived LD, so those looking after the victims removed clothing from LD after she died to make SZ more comfortable. They were found 6-10 meters from the den in a tight group because that's were the rescuers placed them after digging them out of the den.
As to the question, if the den collapsed do we need an explosion theory at all? Well i'm not qualified to differentiate the injuries between an explosion or the crushing force of a collapsed den (tonnes of snow?). A distinct feature here is that the strong force required to split rib cages didn't break any limbs at all, which imo favours explosion over crushing. So i'd still favour an explosive shock wave that created the flail chests but moved all the snow above as well collapsing the den and burying them.
Admin
12-02-2017 12:35 (GMT)
Rain / You already asked this question on 2016-11-30 17:07:24
Rain
12-02-2017 10:33 (GMT)
Was there any blood found in Ms. Dubininas stomach?
Teddy
10-02-2017 23:14 (GMT)
Good arguments.
Nigel Evans
10-02-2017 23:00 (GMT)
Teddy - my research has it that :- 1. they had no use for the stove that night because they had no firewood. They travelled with 3 axes and some knives and would have collected firewood locally around the camp each evening. But that night of course was unusual in that they were above the treeline. It's possible that there was a change of plan due to the storm and they were originally planning to spend the night at the forest (with a hot stove). Their loads when they started out with all the food for the trip were 40kg for the men and 30kg for the girls. No room or need to carry firewood on your backs! 2. Most of their food (50kg) was left at the base camp for the return journey. From memory they had a 3kg piece of smoked brisket (beef) and some signs (pieces of rind) of consuming it that evening presumably cold. Although note that most of them hadn't eaten for 6-8 hours. 3. A flask of alcohol was found in the tent, i'm not aware of a report that says they were intoxicated. 4. Some of the burnt clothing will be from drying their kit on the stove for too long in previous evenings.
So i think the author has his facts wrong and more importantly skips over the central question that they had no time to collect footwear and outer clothing and were unable to return to the tent for some time afterwards. Difficult to blame that on some smoke....
I know Nigel commented on Luk that "the stove was found dismantled, it wasn't used that evening" but the video says that there was fried bacon and ham (never heart of that before) so the stove must have been used earlier and an ember reignited after the stove was taken apart. The stove theory starts after the min 13:20. Another thing bothered me 5:27 "It should also be noted that four of them had died while intoxicated." referring to the first 5 bodies. I have to check just for my files how much was the alcohol in their blood, and presuming it was the men excluding Zina. MHO the facts are shaped around this theory. Every time somebody introduces a theory facts are being manipulated. Like the cooked food and consumed alcohol. I know they carried vodka, but no empty bottles were found.
Nigel Evans
09-02-2017 16:28 (GMT)
Expert - imo there is a fit between lightning, microwaves and cattle/mammal mutilations (CM) and possibly the DPI. I think there is something waiting for science to discover here that's got nothing to do with aliens
Afaik the main features of CM are :- 1. Missing eyes and tongue at the front, missing genitalia and anal (blood rich) muscle at the rear. 2. Blood missing. 3. Cauterised wounds at the front and rear orificies (no bleeding). 4. No other damage to skin/hide. 5. Internal organs intact but unusual coloration.
The selectivity of the injuries seems to somehow be a fit with those posts on microwaves. Grapes = eyes, hot dogs = tongue.
Nigel Evans
08-02-2017 13:52 (GMT)
So that would be an explanation for LD's tongue and all cattle mutilations including the human mutilation brazil case. Microwave radiation that is present within thunder/lightning clouds, travels down a lightning bolt that acts as waveguide (tube) and any mammal close by suffers flash heating of blood rich tissue but not (fatty) skin creating specific repeatable injuries.
"Complex spherical models of the human head consisting of a core of brain tissue and spherical shells simulating the skull and the scalp indicated that hot spots or localized regions of high energy absorption could occur in the center of the brain with magnitudes much higher than observed at the surface of the head due to the focusing of energy by the high dielectric constant and spherical shape of the head (Shapiro et ale [161], Guy [71]). More extensive analyses using spherical, prolate spherical, and ellipsoidal models created a much better understanding of the absorbed energy patterns in the bodies of man and animals exposed to EM fields (Ho et ale [78], Durney et ale [38], Johnson et ale [86], Massoudi et ale [113], Gandhi [62], Allen et ale [3])."
From memory expert's link to that russian site discusses the appearance of brain tissue.
But separate to that, it would follow that if the head focuses EM radiation then the greatest effect would be observed in the blood rich muscle tissue within the head, i.e. the tongue...
Shortwave diathermy heating of human tissue only heats tissues that are good electrical conductors, such as blood vessels and muscle. Adipose tissue (fat) receives little heating by induction fields because an electrical current is not actually going through the tissues.[19]
https://www.wired.com/2014/05/wuwt-microwave-metal/ This same electromagnetic activity can do a number on metal. The oscillation of the microwaves can produce a concentrated electric field at corners or an edge of a metallic object, ionizing the surrounding air “so you can hear it popping away,” says Ross. You might also see sparking, which “is a little like lightning,” she adds. This kind of microwave sound and light show isn’t limited to metal. Ross sometimes puts on a demonstration for her kids: She cuts up hot dogs, creating sharp edges, and “watches the electric sparks jumping between them.”
Pyotr Kapitsa proposed that ball lightning is a glow discharge driven by microwave radiation that is guided to the ball along lines of ionized air from lightning clouds where it is produced. The ball serves as a resonant microwave cavity, automatically adjusting its radius to the wavelength of the microwave radiation so that resonance is maintained.[66][67]
The Handel Maser-Soliton theory of ball lightning hypothesizes that the energy source generating the ball lightning is a large (several cubic kilometers) atmospheric maser. The ball lightning appears as a plasma caviton at the antinodal plane of the microwave radiation from the maser.[68]"
microwave radiation could perhaps explain the loss of iron rich soft tissues in cattle mutilations, blood, tongue, anal muscle....
Nigel Evans
07-02-2017 21:40 (GMT)
Expert - i understand your point that to explain this as natural causes requires the group to have been quite unlucky and that this justifies looking at other theories involving intelligence.
I'll stay with natural causes that science has yet to explain properly.
Nigel Evans
07-02-2017 16:38 (GMT)
expert - tell me more about the bizarre life wandering the forest?
Nigel Evans
06-02-2017 11:08 (GMT)
Expert - your photo looks like 3.5 seats! Ok it's my assumption that the photo represents 4 seats that have been disturbed. Certainly doesn't look like 7 or 9. Four deaths in the ravine and what looks like four seats... Plus injuries consistent with fighting. Hence a reasonable assumption that the group split up.
Nigel Evans
06-02-2017 08:24 (GMT)
Expert - there were only 4 seats in the den, so it's seems very reasonable that the group split into two or there would be more seats.
Expert
05-02-2017 17:59 (GMT)
If this was nature disaster, I expect it - they all would die in tent . because the tent was isolated place where all disaster power could focus .
Expert
05-02-2017 17:10 (GMT)
I think ... about why the group was divided into three group .
they were not divided , but just working in each role. -They make a fire under Cedar tree,,because of sever weather. but they got aware - that can be dangerous . so well dressed peoples go to dig a den , slightly dressed peoples (2peoples) warm bodies around little fire. 3 peoples (igor group) collect branches and carry to the den. Then there are first attack around Cedar .
I am still investgating this incident. - the 4 peoples were known to die at last moment.
Expert
05-02-2017 16:54 (GMT)
Puzzled / we maybe don't know most important information.
some soviet governors would know it .
Expert
05-02-2017 15:55 (GMT)
Hungarus /
ok, your mention is thoughtful but those photos have been spread on internet. and this site exist for debating the cause.
the important thing to me is how they got the injury. I don't want to know who they are.. but wanna know what force through the injuries.
Nigel Evans
05-02-2017 12:29 (GMT)
Puzzled - the den only had 4 seats so it's clear that the group split up, probably due to ID and SZ arguing over the decision making. YD and YK might have been dead by then also. So plenty of reasons for a brawl. They shouldn't have left the base camp in snow storm, "caution is the better part of valour", "safety first". I'm sure there was a disagreement over that and tempers boiled over.
Puzzled
05-02-2017 09:54 (GMT)
Dear all, I wondered if it is possible that the incident took place somewhere different and then after some time, the bodies -dead or alive- carried by the military to the Dyatlv Pass after interrogation. Pros: 1) we do not know the exact time of death. Last photo and diary entry belongs to feb 1 and the tent is found on feb 24...all we know is hikers are dead appr. a couple of hours after their last meal...are we absolutely sure that ie the team did not die/left to dyatlv pass on feb14? 2) extensive non lethal wounds on the team members, ie knuckle wounds that resembles a fist fight and especially cuts. Might be due to interrogation? 3) missing films and diaries from the tent 4) the piece of clothing found around the tent that does not belong to the hikers Cons: skin pieces on cedar tree bark...
Admin
03-02-2017 19:58 (GMT)
Hungarus/ Can you right click, View Image Info, copy the name of the images you consider offensive and send them to info(at)dyatlovpass.com
Hungarus
03-02-2017 17:52 (GMT)
Please black out the intimate body parts of the deceased. Thank you.
Expert
02-02-2017 10:03 (GMT)
Gull Cottage /
I don't think the tribe told a lie. but I think they knew a wrong truth - that was not Yeti and the program,,Russian Yeti,, drove the being to Yeti.
Expert
02-02-2017 09:53 (GMT)
admin , Nigel /
great working of him. I am very interested ,, I feeling like time-machine photo. haha (I got wrong information ?? I thought their skin turn brown , but she just got brown spot.)
I highly appreciate lightning presumption of Nigel - the possibility seems to be higher than I thought earlier ,, I got the awareness after research lightning disasters on internet...
Of course, I have some reasons I keep alien attack presumption.
I will debate diverse possibility with open mind .
Nigel Evans
02-02-2017 09:04 (GMT)
Gull Cottage - arguments against a cover up :- 1. The government spent a lot of money investigating it. 2. The first thing Boris Yeltsin did on taking control of the country was to interview the relevant management to discover what they knew about the DPI. 3. "Unknown and compelling force" isn't very creative as a cover up. Imo it's the best argument against one.
Gull Cottage
02-02-2017 03:55 (GMT)
For 54 years life went on as normal, then While watching the Discovery Channel, The Yeti Lives (I think that was the title?) ...with little interest, don't get me wrong I believe that the Yeti is real. The DC reaches deep into the tradegy, based on one photo to fit their documentary. During this brief snippet my jaw dropped and I instantly grabbed my computer and MY journey into this surreal event started. Like so many others, as I read comments over many years, it seems that SOME are truely COMPLELLED to research only credible facts to consider the truth vs. fantasy. My first attempt at finding facts left me horrified and overwhelmed with sadness, to imagine having to tell their families of the unbelievably painful passing of their children. Each new research session moved me from a heavy heart to "wait a minute, this can't be right" then the deeper I searched I started getting madder and madder, realizing this was a complete set up. The "RED HERRINGS" are endless and the list of facts, based on ALL the investigations, photos, diaries and first hand accounts are far to many to mention. Like so many, I go over every detail available and come back to - NO WAY this is anything but a cover up by "The Powers That Be" circa, 1959 Russia. The only revaluation I thought of concerning possible cause, was that in the 1950's the Soviet Union was doing R&D on Laser (Maser) technology. This effort was geared solely toward warfare but would later be applied to many other positive applications. The first U.S. patient was in 1960. This will be my only post, only to honor the memory of The Dyatlov Expedition members and their families. This historical event can become addictive and unproductive. My faith lies completely in Jesus Christ and I will wait to find out the truth when I reach the other side.
Nigel Evans
01-02-2017 22:15 (GMT)
admin - happy to do so even though all three are from wikipedia! and thanks for the interest.
as an aside note the comment that aircraft might not be protected from positive polarity lightning....
btw it's lightning not lightening.
I forgot to mention that Ivanov apparently favoured "the fireball theory", perhaps your entry should correct that.
Cheers Nigel.
Admin
01-02-2017 21:03 (GMT)
Nigel Evans/ Can you give me the references [20], [21] and [22], I want to rephrase my text for your theory that I published under http://dyatlovpass.com/theories#lightening
Nigel Evans
01-02-2017 18:29 (GMT)
Seems the contribution has been deleted because it is "original research without a reliable source". Well if it's that new (and original) it wont have a reliable source! Other than the author I've complained and pointed out that the explanation section should state that Ivanov favoured ball lightning (although that gets a mention further on) and my contribution is to observe that cold weather lightning could explain the injuries together with suggesting a timeline. Imo more sensible than yetis and infrasound...
Nigel Evans
01-02-2017 17:56 (GMT)
@all - or i'm trying to add my theory to wikipedia but someone is undoing it! Here's my contribution :-
Ball lightning and Lightning Nigel Evans at http://dyatlovpass.com/comments has proposed an explanation for the event including a combination of ball lightning and lightning strikes. The tent slits, hot spot near the tent and a camera on a makeshift tripod suggest that they were observing something in the sky. Given that the local Mansi people blamed the golden orbs for the tragedy and the repeated sightings of lights in the sky from reliable witnesses in the same period together with photos from the group's cameras possibly of aerial lights, it is plausible that the group fled from the tent due to an occurrence of ball lightning [20] getting very close to the tent and hovering there melting the snow beneath to create the hot spot. The group then hurried to the treeline 1500 meters away and lit a fire whilst they waited for the object to disappear. The theory then describes how the two deaths at the cedar were due a single electrocution event (due to normal lightning strike or ball lightning) creating burnt hair, bleeding head orifices, large burns, burnt clothing, pulmonary edema and tree damage and the subsequent four deaths in the ravine due to an explosion event near to the den (again due to a more powerful lightning strike or ball lightning). Although cold weather lightning is rare it is possible see [21]. The theory suggests that the ravine lightning strike hit close to the den and vapourised a substantial quantity of stream water, snow and ice (positive polarity strikes - [22] can produce 300,000 amps and temperatures several times hotter than the surface of the sun, e.g. 30,000C) creating an explosion amplified by the confines of the ravine that threw the den and it's occupants 6 to 10 meters resulting in blunt force injuries similar to a car accident or barotrauma. The theory suggests that the three surviving members died in two groups, RS was injured and urgently had to be returned to the tent assisted by ZK. Due to snow drifts and high winds he collapsed on the journey and ZK also further on due to the same plus exhaustion from the effort of assisting him. ID remained with the ravine four as LD and SZ although badly injured stayed alive for some time afterwards and NTB was unconcious. ID may have stripped the two bodies at the cedar (turning the bodies) to provide more insulation for those still alive and possibly contributed some of his own. Some time later he decided to abandon his vigil and return to the tent but died being the only member of the group to have clear signs of hypothermia.
The above may or may not appear on the wikipedia page depending...
@admin - i've included the link on the assumption that you approve of the exposure, please advise if otherwise.
It's only me
01-02-2017 13:52 (GMT)
I just wanted to say thank you for the website. I've recently played the computer game Kholat and it has got me interested in the mystery. This website is solely responsible for generating my interest further, thank you for the valuable information.
Personally, a combination of madness and fear of an avalanche caused the incident. But I've ordered some books and I look forward to piecing it all together soon.
Nigel Evans
30-01-2017 12:08 (GMT)
Expert - i don't see how they could take photos of lightning with that camera equipment. They'd be photographing something more persistent, like......
Nigel Evans
29-01-2017 17:27 (GMT)
Ken - surely the slits and the camera on a tripod indicate they were observing from within the tent. None of the ravine 4 could have walked after their injuries. AK snapped neck, LD+SZ flail chests.
Nigel Evans
29-01-2017 17:16 (GMT)
I disagree2 - by the way the cedar was by far the the tallest tree at that location. Plus if the wind dropped the rising plasma from the fire could have encouraged a strike.
Nigel Evans
29-01-2017 13:41 (GMT)
I disagree2 - i look forward to your theory for the burnt tree tops.
I disagree2
29-01-2017 13:19 (GMT)
Great info. But I insist, several lightenings (at least 4 or 5 in the theory) and all of them ignores tallest conductors? I'm still scheptical about the theory. But nice info!
About the lightening theory, they wheren't on the highest spot of the pass. Actually there are plenty of higher spots on the map that a lightening would strike first...
Nigel Evans
29-01-2017 12:28 (GMT)
Expert - good link. interesting that ZK's and ID bruises were believed to be due to rope marks. Could have been due to exertions of previous days of course.
Admin
29-01-2017 11:50 (GMT)
Expert/ It certainly does. I am adding links to Dyatlovmania page as I follow your discussion and I will certainly translate some of the content of this site. Your comments are much appreciated.
The search party covered the bodies and left them there through the night.
Nigel Evans
29-01-2017 11:07 (GMT)
asrin - my theory is that they died where found, no one was moved.
curious - lots of snow plus lots of wind equals little snow in exposed sites and lots of snow in sheltered places (wind drifts). The ravine was full to the brim (flat) with snow. We don't know what YK and YD wore, ZK+RS were well dressed.
This is the things I can answer. 1) They fell or were thrown into snow pile around ravine .
2) The Question was one of the reasons why I suspected they were sacrificed by artificial force.
3) I don't know what you mean. that is trustworthy information ?
Expert
29-01-2017 10:36 (GMT)
Nigel /
Do you think this broken branch was caused by lightning? http://gipotezi.ru/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/ivanov2.jpg This would be made by someone climbing tree to watch out the force , and he left skin tissue of him on Cedar bark . Do you think they couldn't know that was a nature disaster since they fled from the tent?? [ other disaster they encountered was sever weather. If I was one of them, I would return fastly for some clothes , shoes, tent. So I guess there was the force around tent ]
Curious
29-01-2017 09:45 (GMT)
Hi, I observe some oddities that have not been discussed throughly: 1) The amount of snow on the area: When the search party arrived,there were still foot prints around the tent and through the forest for some 500mts. So it did not snow much after the incident...How come the 4 corpses in the ravine found under 4mts of snow? 2) It is also strange that only the better clothed team members (found in the ravine) have mortal wounds. It is as if someone used brutal force as a last resort only for the skiers that will not be killed by the cold weather...Government involvement? 3) Offical cover up/disinformation: Maria Ivanovna (medical assistant) claims she saw 11 bodies not 9...But the ravine group was found 3 months later so, she should have seen 5 (or 7 seven bodies first) then + 4 corpses, 3 months later.. IMHO, official reports may not be that trustworthy.
asr?n s?rr?
28-01-2017 23:17 (GMT)
I guess you do not understand what I want to say @ Nigel. LD, SK received fatal wounds near the cedar tree. Were taken to the side of the river afterwards?
Nigel Evans
28-01-2017 22:46 (GMT)
asrin - do you mean why did they go to the ravine if the cedar had proved to be dangerous?
asr?n s?rr?
28-01-2017 20:18 (GMT)
@Nigel, hi.
So LD, SK, before the death of the cedar was next to the tree, then taken to the side of the river, was not safe place?
Nigel Evans
28-01-2017 13:45 (GMT)
Expert - interesting question about the eyeballs, don't know why they were blanked out.
"I think those were burnt by their fire around Cedar tree". Well it is a big burn, 31cm, charred down to the tissue. He would have to be unconscious (or dead).
Nigel Evans
28-01-2017 13:14 (GMT)
Expert - "And it is not weird for lightning to melt only snow without affecting soil or making holes ? ? "
No, if the stream provided a good earth then the current wouldn't leave a crater, it would just follow the stream overground. Might vapourise the stream of course. If there was any damage to the stream bed this would be hidden by the water which would have strengthened by the time they were found.
Nigel Evans
28-01-2017 12:56 (GMT)
Expert - lightning strikes differ considerably in their strength. 90% of people survive a strike. But the stronger ones can throw a victim thirty feet through the air causing them to typically land on their head. Another feature is that much of the current can travel on the outer layer of clothing causing it vapourise in the heat. So victims of strong lightning strikes can be found dead, naked with head injuries prompting the police investigation to initially consider lethal violence. If the victim is female then sexual violence. Or they can be found with severe burns of course.
It all depends on the current and it's strength and path to earth. Some people just feel a strong tingle and live, some get killed, thrown and stripped naked, others get bad burns.
So my theory is :-
Cause of fleeing from the tent - lightning strike close to the tent or ball lightning. The slits and hot spot could be due to either, the camera on a tripod favours ball lightning.
Cause of deaths at fire - mild lightning strike directly hitting the 2 yuris, damaging the cedar branches and scorching the tree tops. Also creates burnt clothing.
Cause of deaths in ravine - the group had split into two due to fighting. The ravine four made a snow cave that had four seats. RS went to talk to them. A powerful explosion occurred close to the den either by a lightning strike or ball lightning. This threw the rav4 6 to 10 meters from the den (with a lot of snow) into the stream. LD and SZ got the shockwave the worst, NTB and AK less but they suffered a severe skull fracture and a broken neck as they landed. RS being nearby was thrown but not violently enough to be fatal (or he was lucky) but still another head injury. RS was found to have wrinkled "prune" skin on his feet. A possible cause is that he landed in the stream and his right boot filled with water.
Cause of death of last three - ID, ZK rush over to help. The explosion has thrown tons of snow into the air and off the trees which is covering the bodies. LD and SZ are still alive but unable to move. AK is dead with a broken neck and NTB is unconcious (and never recovers) from the head injury. RS is moving, dazed but concious. Clearly RS's only chance is to get him back to the tent. So ZK leaves with RS whilst ID tends to the wounded and the dying. But the wind and/or the snow drifts defeat them and RS collapses, his body still warm enough to melt the snow beneath him. ZK is stronger but she falls into a deep snow drift that defeats her, she dies from exhaustion (RS would have been a big burden) but not hypothermia. ID stays at the ravine trying to help LD, NTB and SZ. as a true professional KGB agent, SZ is trying to write in his diary but fails. LD is alive for 20 minutes (the patholgist estimated this from the internal bleeding this is apparently possible even though a rib had punctured her heart). Although three are still alive ID cannot leave them to freeze to death, he tries to make them comfortable by stripping the two Yuris of their clothes and dressing the survivors with extra layers whilst he waits for ZK to return. He waits but he is getting very cold. Finally he decides that ZK isn't returning (or all three appear to be dead) and heads for the tent. But he has waited too long and is the only member of the group that dies with the classic symptoms of hypothermia.
I guess they did not leave traces. And even if they cause the bones to break, should they cause harm to the soft bones? Maybe it's a ridiculous theory.
Nigel Evans
24-01-2017 23:33 (GMT)
asrin - well as far as i know it's a new theory, but i think they would leave some tracks?
asr?n s?rr?
24-01-2017 23:03 (GMT)
I have heard that there may be deers in the dyatlov gated area. Could the deer have crushed the mountaineers?
asrin - "deer rug could have crushed them" doesn't translate?
asr?n s?rr?
24-01-2017 22:01 (GMT)
@Nigel Evans Do you think the deer rug could have crushed them? (:
asr?n s?rr?
24-01-2017 21:23 (GMT)
@Expert Tongue and eyes can be eaten by rotten or flying rattles for a long time due to snow and river water.
Nigel Evans
24-01-2017 19:55 (GMT)
Expert :-
1. lightning just outside the tent, (hot spot) scared them into running away. The slits are from watching lightning approach. If it's 2-3 miles away you can't even hear the thunder due to the snow (thundersnow). So it could quite scary. 2. Cedar and ravine could have been one multiple strike or two seperate strikes. I favour one strike that splits into two. Lichtenberg figures are typically were the victim lives from a mild strike. Note you can't see any on this guy - http://www.eplasty.com/article_images/eplasty08e46_fig1.gif One of the Yuris had black arms from the hands to the elbow and a 31 cm burn on the leg and foot. Good question why the autopsy didn't ask about electrocution. All the evidence fits including pulmonary edema (but several causes for that one).
Expert
24-01-2017 19:24 (GMT)
I will study lightning presumption more .. as it is possible on my thought
Expert
24-01-2017 19:21 (GMT)
Of course, I think lightening is the best idea of nature disaster. I will study this more but even this doesnot look perfect. .
this is the looks of human struck by lightning he was not burnt , but got mark https://i2.wp.com/www.capturedlightning.com/frames/human_LF2.jpg My question 1950's Experts couldn't know their injury were related to lightning ? 4 peoples dig a den after lightning strike around cedar . and third strike ? 1, 2, 3 ?
Expert
24-01-2017 18:17 (GMT)
They were frightened by lightning collision They fled from the tent urgently They gathered around cedar tree They were attacked by second lightning around Cedar They got damaged They scattered from Cedar
Expert
24-01-2017 18:05 (GMT)
(I focus on lightning possibility. . Except for presumption on aliens)
Expert
24-01-2017 17:54 (GMT)
At least, you need to complete explaining removed eyes or tongue ,, it is hard homework for lightning ^ ^
Nigel Evans
24-01-2017 17:41 (GMT)
Expert - no, my "lightning at the tent" theory is that the strike was near the tent at the hot spot. So no need to consider burn marks on the tent.
Expert
24-01-2017 17:36 (GMT)
Nigel / If lightning was responsible for the incident, the tent was burnt by it , wasn't it ?
Expert
24-01-2017 17:27 (GMT)
asr?n s?rr? / Well, I think avalanche presumption is very unlikely. only a little snow covered the tent ! and there were many footprint from tent to 500M site. even a little wind could cause tent in steep hill to be covered.
Nigel Evans
24-01-2017 16:11 (GMT)
asrin - problems with the avalanche theory :- 1. there's no sign of one, not even a small slab avalanche. Alpine experts were part of the investigation. 2. their last meal was 6-8 hours previously so it's highly probable that they died by 8-9pm. So they weren't sleeping. Very likely to have been sitting. 3. No broken limbs which could be expected. 4. The footprints would have indicated if people were being carried or limping. 5. LD's and SZ's injuries were too severe for them to go anywhere even if stretchered. LD had a broken rib pushed into her heart. Impossible for those two to have walked or even be helped, the flail chests meant that each breath would have been extremely painful. They died quickly afterwards, with SZ found trying to make a note in his diary. If they had have died at the tent then why not leave them there? Or else drag the bodies?
asr?n s?rr?
24-01-2017 15:37 (GMT)
A russian scientist predicts; The mountaineers were sleeping in the tent, perhaps crossing the sleepers in a small avalanche. Sleeping at the entrance of the tent door RUSTEM SLOBODIN (not much damage) LIUDMILA DUBININA, SEMIAN ZOLOTARYOV, NIKOLAI THIBEAUX-BRIGNOLLE are injured due to the avalanche effect. The mountaineers are tearing the tent on this event and bring their wounded friends to the forest side more safely. There are a total of 8 footprints on the ground. Because probably NIKOLAI THIBEAUX-BRIGNOLLE died in the tent. 5 people who are in good condition after they hurt their wounded friends also die hypothermia. It is quoted in a document. Https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rItOKPEiC4
Nigel Evans
24-01-2017 10:50 (GMT)
Expert - the hotspot could have been from a lightning strike. If so then it's possible that they got an electric shock from the voltage difference (if they weren't insulated within the tent they could have been killed). The bamboo pole might have been damaged by the strike. Clearly it would make sense to immediately evacuate the exposed position on the hill and seek shelter within the tree line and build a big fire to stay warm.
Expert
24-01-2017 09:47 (GMT)
Nigel / -25'c with slight clothing is not a nature threat ? the torture could make all adventure possible. If the threat was lightening , they might want rather lightening than the state .
Nigel Evans
23-01-2017 23:08 (GMT)
like lightning.
Nigel Evans
23-01-2017 22:28 (GMT)
Expert - so that was the nature of the threat, immediately dangerous/deadly but expected to go away soon.
Nigel Evans
23-01-2017 22:13 (GMT)
Expert - the point i made there - "they had to flee without time to grab clothing but they were waiting by the cedar for the chance to return to the tent."
Suggests that they had to immediately leave but they expected to be able to return shortly.
Nigel Evans
23-01-2017 21:25 (GMT)
Expert - the plan was that the night on the mountain was the start of a circular hike for about three days, returning to the same place. So they left approx 50kg of supplies of mainly food for the return journey afterwards in a cache near the river. I originally thought that when they left the tent they had intended to return to this store and had gone to the cedar in error. But on further reflection i think they chose the cedar on purpose. The cache was just food and very little clothing so no reason to go there. It's a fascinating problem, they had to flee without time to grab clothing but they were waiting by the cedar for the chance to return to the tent.
Expert
23-01-2017 19:51 (GMT)
Nigel / Slight Wear at less -25' for hours , which is really terrible torture. I have a question , do you know ? : they had storage house near tent . what it looked like ? How far it was away from tent ?
Nigel Evans
23-01-2017 12:56 (GMT)
Expert - yes, what forced them to leave the tent AND prevented them from returning is the big question".
Expert
23-01-2017 11:52 (GMT)
Today, I experienced -16'C . I was sure again the force of Dyatlov pass caused terrible fear.
Nigel Evans
21-01-2017 21:53 (GMT)
Expert - i'm not saying that i know how it happened, just that lightning in those forms can explain the facts.
Nigel Evans
21-01-2017 12:04 (GMT)
Expert - the central question is not "why did they flee the tent?". but "why did they flee the tent and then light a fire 1500 meters away but still unable to return to the tent although suffering from frostbite in -20C?".
There aren't lot of possibilities to answer this :- 1. Prisoners - but no sign of attackers. 2. Madness or intoxication - but clear signs of orderly organising the fire and the den. 3. Animals or Yetis - you don't light a fire. 4. Aliens - you don't light a fire. 5. Natural phenomena like lightning or ball lightning - the slits strongly suggest that they were watching something. The hot spot suggests a heat source, lightning or ball lightning would fit. You can have cold lightning, synoptic snowstorms can produce it and the most dangerous type positive polarity. Lightning is produced by friction of atmospheric ice. By far the most common cause of this is warm moist air meeting cold air as in classic thunderstorms but it isn't the only cause and there may be causes that aren't properly understood as suggested in the paper i posted below. An explosion, heat and electrocution explain all the facts of the dpi case other than radiation which i assume to be from contamination with ground sources.
Nigel Evans
20-01-2017 23:45 (GMT)
Expert - there was the "hot spot" at the tent, 4meters in diameter were the snow had melted and refrozen. That and the tent slits favour BL.
Me:)
20-01-2017 21:53 (GMT)
I think the lights and the cracking sound were what killed them. It could account for the injuries they received,like the eyes and tongue gone. It sounds like it was some kind of nuclear explosions in the sky. IDK. I can only guess.
Asr?n S?rr?
20-01-2017 21:05 (GMT)
@ Expert, yeah me too.
No new theories ?
Nigel Evans
20-01-2017 20:52 (GMT)
Expert - BL at the tent , BL or lightning can explain the cedar and ravine. The tent slits heavily lean to BL at the tent. It's probable that the cedar and ravine are a single lightning strike.
Nigel Evans
20-01-2017 11:25 (GMT)
Expert - hi, nice to see you back
Whether alien visitation is real or not i don't see a connection with the dpi.
i.e. the primary path was in the ravine and a secondary path hit two people at the cedar attracted by the stream of ionised particles rising from the fire.
The den in the ravine had seats made out of branches but interestingly there were only four. Presumably for the four that died there. So this infers that the group split into two probably due to dissatisfaction with ID's leadership.
For me what's interesting about the missing eyes and tongue is the overlap with "mammalian mutulations". I'm coming to the view that these are due to some form of lightning strike that isn't understood yet. The brazil case has good indicators of a lightning strike. No clothes, serious burns.
Admin
20-01-2017 10:02 (GMT)
To allow corrections of typos we will have to impose registration. I can not correct but I can delete entries of spammers. If you want to correct something please make another entry with the correct spelling and send me an email to info(at)dyatlovpass.com to delete the wrong entry.
Expert
20-01-2017 09:58 (GMT)
My Opinion is .. I think We must not discount all incident related to aliens visiting.
and about Ball lightening Nigel insist
1) it is unlikely the objects were divided into ''first explosion object and second explosion object'' (that sound like they were alive)
2) the object damaged cedar tree ? if so, The cedar tree must be damaged by explosion as well as burnt trace.
3) Ball Lightening is not proper to explain the injuries - removed tongue or eye balls . (any predators don't eat other animals like the way)
Expert
20-01-2017 09:57 (GMT)
I know some cases about sky hovering balls from global incident. there were many witnesses that was related to alien crafts . Except for foreign countries case, I will say the only incidents that happened in Our country.
3 pilots in South Korea chased hovering skyballs in past time (about 60years before) one of them said " I don't think that was a secret weapon made in different country . Because That was too high technology to be made by human ....... that disappeared instantly at tremendous speed when we chased it. "
another case is testified by a old monk on TV she lived in deep mountain Oneday, she felt extraordinary at night time ..
Q) Why did you feel extraordinary then ? A) I reared some animals but the animals started to cry and there was very bright light from door. Q) What did you see ? A) Yes, there were red light balls over my yard . Q) What did you think of the sky balls ?? A) Earlier , I just have no idea on that. but now, I think they were aliens from outer space. I was just scared by them. Q) Did you see lives in craft ? A) Yes Q) How ? A) Lives came out of the craft through a light. Not stair. Q) Couldn't they humans ?? A) they weren't human and they did not use any language to communicate with me. but I could got it . even I can write it on paper using only number 1 and 2 .
She said this "they were kind beings to me, I hope to meet them again. " So I wanted to build this landing site .
this sites were made by her proposal (and it is known some ones helped her)
Thanks @Nigel. The image that is related to Yeti is a picture that discovery channel appeared recently. That's why I do not think it's for me to for yeti's. @Random: This event could be a lightning bolt, a lightning bolt, a biological weapon. There is doubt about the oldest member of the group.
Finally: I guess this event is exactly what we will never know.
What were the other members of the group writing on their cameras and diaries? Maybe they will explain everything. Only Allah knows.
Nigel Evans
16-01-2017 15:27 (GMT)
asrin - i don't know if it's real .
It's frame no17 from NTB's camera. It has spawned the yeti theory but as the author of this site points out there are tracks between the camera and the figure, probably one of the party went to the toilet and NTB took a photo as a joke. Pity he didn't get a better focus to silence the yeti theorists....
Random
16-01-2017 14:19 (GMT)
I posted a comment about it being a biological attack and it was deleted. A biological parasite from the oldest member of the group, (as the bodies closest to him had extensive injuries) who had a mysterious past for his time and unknown reasons for being a nomad traveling with college students. This is hypothesis that no one mentions in any publications and should be considered. Most feel the military was testing a nuclear weapon when it may have been biological.
asrin - SZ was attempting to write in his diary so presumably he had eyes at that point .
So SZ and LD eyes are easily explained as predation or freeze/thaw or water erosion or a combination post mortem.
LD swallowed blood before dying so clearly the tongue was injured before or at the fatal event. Best guess is that the blast wave made her bite it badly and that attracted predation. A wilder theory is that our science knows that lightning produces antimatter which immediately annihilates with normal matter. So it's theoretically possible perhaps that the vacuum phase of the explosion made her draw antimatter across her face and into her mouth. N.B. that there's an overlap in this injury with cattle mutilation and the "human mutilation brazil" case. So i'm just guessing that one day science will find a connection. But probably beyond our lifetimes. But these cases resonate empirically.
Asr?n S?rr?
15-01-2017 19:45 (GMT)
@NigelEvans Thanks for all the information. The result: the lightning that killed the Dyatlov climbers. So, lost tongue, missing eyeballs, what is the explanation for this? Thanks, Nigel.
Nigel Evans
15-01-2017 18:02 (GMT)
Another explanation for the hot spot outside the tent is that is was perhaps where a conventional lighning bolt hit the earth. Only this wasn't focused by a stream or an irrigation pipe and hence didn't create a crater, just an area 4 meters in diameter of melted snow that the wind formed into ridges as it re froze. But not only would the bolt be incredibly bright but it would probably collapse the tent.
SUMMARY. Our knowledge of the physics of posi- tive lightning remains much poorer than that of nega- tive lightning. Many questions regarding the genesis of positive lightning and its properties cannot be an- swered without further research. It is worth noting that attempts to initiate positive lightning using the rocket-and-wire technique generally result in dis- charges that are composed of the initial stage (rela- tively low-level, long-lasting current component) that is not followed by positive leader/return-stroke se- quences. Bipolar lightning is an even less understood and often unrecognized phenomenon. While some simple cloud charge distributions, such as a “tilted dipole,” an “inverted dipole,” or a “positive mono- pole,” can apparently explain the generation of posi- tive lightning, the occurrence of bipolar lightning, as well as complex cloud discharges, suggests that the cloud charge structure cannot always be described by simple, vertically stacked charge models. It is likely that positively and negatively charged regions can exist at about the same height in the cloud.
Nigel Evans
15-01-2017 15:52 (GMT)
asrin - also a feature of thunder snow is that the falling snow intensifies the lightning flash and muffles the thunder so it cn be inaudible beyond two miles. So the slits could be due to them observing a fantastic but silent light show...
Nigel Evans
15-01-2017 15:46 (GMT)
asrin - well i'm not a meteorological expert but the internet tells me that lightning is due to the build up of voltage due to collisions of ice particles within a cloud and the typical cause of this is hot moist air rising vertically in a thunderstorm. This means that lightning is very rare at the poles and most frequent in the tropics. But it would be my strong guess that the mixing of ice (and snow?) particles can also have other causes. Just because these causes are rare doesn't make them impossible. E.g. freak wind circulation, downward flow of the jet stream, anomalous electrical ground conditions repelling the air vertically (the region clearly exhibits freak frequency of ball lightning and strong magnetic anomalies).
N.B. my "dpi - lightning theory" can be satisfied by either conventional lightning or ball lightning or a combination of both. Also don't forget that our physics cannot explain ball lightning at all, and there maybe unknown causes of conventional lightning waiting to be found. Dark lightning has only been recently discovered...
I'm currently reading "Dyatlov Pass Keeps Its Secrets" which i can recommend. For me it's a no brainer that the cedar tree and ravine deaths can be most easily explained by electrical discharge at the cedar and an explosion in the ravine. This gives you - burnt hair, burnt clothing, massive leg burn, scattered fragments of burnt clothing, shockwave injuries, serious skull trauma without tissue damage (chunks of flying ice softening in the heat flash and landing on head in snow), heavy bruising, four bodies found in a tight group 6-10 meters from their den.
Everything i read is a fit, except for perhaps the radiation. This would be explained as a red herring, that the contamination was picked up from one of the disused mines that they explored or naturally occurring on the ground. Strontum, trituim etc.
A reminder of a notable fact from the book. SZ was found still holding a diary in one hand and a pencil in the other (this strongly suggests that he didn't travel in the stream later and that the curious clumping was there at the fatal event). Lying there with the extreme pain of a flail chest he was still trying to leave a record of the event for people to find. A professional agent to the very end?
Asr?n S?rr?
15-01-2017 06:52 (GMT)
@NigelEvans I read in a forum, there are those who say that there can not be a lightning event.
The temperature was -30C (-22F), which is much too cold to allow for any generation of atmospheric lightning. Not sure what happen there, but lightning would have been simply impossible. Yes, lightning can happen during some snowstorms, but in these cases the temperatures are much warmer and near the freezing mark (0C, 32F). This makes a huge difference since convection of ice particles that freeze and melt during the convection cycle is critical for generating the charge.
just_me
14-01-2017 16:41 (GMT)
Obviously they were inside tent when heard something that made them so scared and runaway in panic.
Well, why don't someone put some microphone on that location and record for 1 full year or more ... maybe got something to hear
Nigel Evans
12-01-2017 19:15 (GMT)
asrin - i've thought of an extra refinement to the theory.
In the ravine after the explosion. The strike creates a lot of water vapour as this powerful bolt - 50,000C, 1 million amps, earths down the stream this hot vapour rises until it refreezes. Also the explosion sends a lot of nearby snow (ground and trees) into the air with the wind blowing a lot of it into the ravine, plus snow on the side of ravine slides down. So four people are buried in snow with three survivors. ID now has a dilemma. RS is clearly injured and needs care. But he doesn't know if the buried four are dead or alive. So as the leader of the group he decides that ZK should accompany RS back to the tent whilst he stays in the ravine hoping for signs of life. It will be part of his training to know that buried under snow you can breathe for approx 30 minutes before the snow near your mouth reaches a concentration of CO2 that kills you. So he sends them back and waits perhaps listening or attempting to dig with his hands. So ZK helps RS back to the tent but the path is uphill in deep snow and very tough. Along the way RS collapses. Being a girl she can't lift or drag him and she is getting weak from cold and the explosion. So she decides to leave him there and if she can get to the tent she could bring warm clothing down to help him. But she succumbs to the cold and conditions (high winds?) 200 meters further uphill. Meanwhile ID decides to abandon his search as he is getting very cold. It's a feature of hypothermia that one of the first stages is mental confusion. So perhaps as good leader he stays too long. Anyway he doesn't get far before the hypothermia overtakes him and he is found displaying classic signs of death by hypothermia, paradoxical undressing and a litre of urine.
May they rest in peace.
Asr?n S?rr?
12-01-2017 17:41 (GMT)
I think it is strange that they want to take each other's clothes even after the lightning falls on them. They would probably be hot, they would get warm, they would be cooked, why they took each other's clothes and put on themselves ... Ludymilla's tongue broke off from the lightning bolt. You also have the opportunity to make an animation of this theory, thanksgiving, thanks @Nigel Evans.
Nigel Evans
12-01-2017 17:03 (GMT)
asrin - i think the best explanation for leaving the tent is ball lightning, it would seem that there were two people outside well dressed for the cold and seven people inside the tent and there are at least seven slits at standing height in the tent. So all the people in the tent cut an individual slit to observe something. This fact combined with the hot spot strongly favours ball lightning and not a lightning strike. Either the proximty of the BL caused them to flee the tent or a lightning strike hit the bamboo tent pole or both. But the event has to prevent them from returning to collect boots and clothing so BL hovering over the hot spot fits best.
The the two yuris are killed by a weak lightning strike like this - http://www.walterreeves.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/lightning-3.jpg only in this case the tree trunk is covered in snow and the strike travels outside the bark only damaging the branches. The 2 yuri's are huddled together by the fire, the strike enters YD's head on the right side burning his hair and causing profuse bleeding to the ears, nose and lips. The current crosses over to YK and exits the left leg resulting in a massive edema (31cm).
Then all seven realise that the fire under a tree is unwise and they retreat to the ravine probably on the advice of SZ as this was a WW2 technique to survive the extreme cold. However they haven't realised that if lightning is a threat then the water in the stream is very dangerous as it provides the best earth for more lightning strikes. The strike that kills the four outright is much more powerful than the first one, like this - http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2011/8/22/this-is-what-it-looks-like-when-lightning-strikes.html n.b. that strike blew a hole three foot deep to find the earth provided by the irrigation line... This strike doesn't hit any individual but results in a powerful explosion as it instantly vapourises snow, ice, mud etc, paticularly so in the confines of the ravine which amplifies the shockwave. Note in that image that the hole is small relative to the area of grass that is killed. So it fits that most of the "ravine 7" got a good dose of heat changing the colour of their skin as they were blown through the air. Four died and three survived but with injuries and shock. They pick themselves up and decide to return to the tent. But the explosion has left them substantially weakened and disorientated and they do not make the logical decision to remove shoes and clothing from the deceased. This is possibly due the to heat melting a large area of snow up the sides of the ravine which slides down and covers all of them causing the three still alive to scramble out. Whatever this proves fatal as they return for ZK and ID, RS dies anyway collapsing whilst still warm.
I've no plans to make an animation. The text is sufficient for me.
Asr?n S?rr?
12-01-2017 16:08 (GMT)
So the dpi event was due to lightning. Lightning strikes in the tent, the mountaineers were troubled, somehow they decided to go to the woods, after which a strong lightning bolt killed them, and some died of hypothermia. is it true ? @ Nige Evans
@Nigel, can you make an animation video of this theory? Thank you.
Nigel Evans
12-01-2017 15:27 (GMT)
asrin - no to the weapon theory, the Soviets wouldn't have invested that much effort in investigating the dpi if they already knew the cause.
As far as i know all the evidence can be explained by a combination of ball lightning (frequent occurence in that area - 2 events witnessed within 2 months of the dpi) and lightning strkes (thundersnow can produce the most powerful type - positive polarity).
Asr?n S?rr?
12-01-2017 15:03 (GMT)
@Nigel Evans : I think lightning is a natural lightning, Or did the Russians make with Tesla's lightning weapon? I hope you understand? The language problem is seriously bad! (:
Nigel Evans
12-01-2017 12:40 (GMT)
Asrin - my theory is that ZK, RS and ID were with the ravine 4 when they were killed but further away from the blast. ZK's official cause of death is - "hypothermia due to violent accident". RS - i suggest that he collapsed from shock and his head injury. ID - clearly died of hypothermia.
Regarding the ravine 4 :- LD and SZ - flail chests due to shockwave from explosion. AK - the explosion threw him backwards and he landed on his head, resulting in headwound and a deformed neck. NTB - the blast threw a projectile that hit him in the head.
Nigel Evans
12-01-2017 12:05 (GMT)
Asrin - I think most people would agree that the pathologist's report isn't rigourous enough (LD's tongue). As far as i know the injuries of YD and YK are consistent with them being electrocuted whilst sitting side by side the lightning entering YD's head and exiting via YK's left leg and foot.
The damage to the cedar tree supports the lightning theory. N.B. if the snowstorm was as photographed when they setup camp then they would have no reason to climb the tree as the visibilty would be very limited and they couldn't see the tent anyway.
From this website :- the soft tissues of both hands and fingers tips are especially dark purple; all fingers and toes are severelly frostbitten. If Yuri Doroshenko would have survived, he would have required an amputation of all his toes and fingers.
Asr?n S?rr?
11-01-2017 22:15 (GMT)
Hi. @Nigel Evans : Do autopsy doctors not understand lightning strike? Did you feel a lightning strike, Nigel? Please ask to learn.
Maybe it's irrelevant, but I'm looking at it, zinaida is well dressed, but how does she get hypothermia and die? The subject still has not reached the solution and it has been about 60 years ...
There is also a detailed video on the scene in this video account, perfect.
The person who shoots the video is walking with the socks and there is no problem ...
Thunder snow and positive lightning :- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thundersnow "Finally, there is a greater likelihood that thundersnow lightning will have a positive polarity which has greater destructive potential than negatively charged (typical) lightning"
Asrin - assuming you meant "why did the mountaineers leave the tent?".
Anyone of the three could have spooked them but the cause has to continue to spook them to prevent them from returning afterwards.
So i guess that reduces the probability of a lightning strike in favour of st elmos fire or ball lightning. The 4metre hot spot in front of the tent favours ball lightning imo.
Then the two Yuris are killed by a normal lightning strike.
With the ravine 4 it's not possible to determine whether it's BL or a lightning strike. But either cause creates deaths by an explosion not electrocution. Apparently a LS can generate temperatures 5 times hotter than the surface of the sun. So if that hit the stream in the ravine the water would instantly vapourise creating quite a bang..
Asr?n S?rr?
09-01-2017 17:31 (GMT)
@Nigel Evans
The result is lightning strike? If you cause a lightning strike, will you explain it, why did the tent leave the mountaineers? Can you give a detailed explanation @ Nigel, Please? Thank's.
Nigel Evans
09-01-2017 12:46 (GMT)
I've spent a little time researching how lightning strikes affect trees. Tall conifers near to flowing water would seem to be high risk!
Also the strike can have very different effects depending on whether the current travels outside the tree or within it. Wrt to the dpi it would be highly likely that the branches would be snow covered and the the strike would jump from branch to branch resulting in damaged branches but an intact trunk. It fits that the fire would assist the strike giving off a stream of ionised particles. Then some or all of the discharge would jump from the tree and pass through the people sitting by the fire resulting in electrocution injuries (burns and pulmonary edema).
Being an intelligent group with scientific backgrounds they would realise with hindsight that the tree and the fire were a bad idea and retreat to the ravine but sadly there was another similar event but this time primarily explosive.
So a good explanation for all of the facts would be that the area exhibits static electricity anomalies that combined with the snowstorm encouraged - st elmo's fire/lightning strikes/ball lightning and a combination of these resulted in the dpi.
Nigel Evans
09-01-2017 11:21 (GMT)
Mr Woo - they didn't use the heater that night, so no case for CO.
asrin - excellent article, which closely follows my thinking (and that of Ivanov and the mansi). Provides a good explanation for all the facts.
Here is another theory. I will not overexplain. Carbon Monoxide poisioning. At least enough poisoning to cause confusion, hallucination, and possible violence. It would explain sudden fleeing from the tent, signs of trauma to the bodies, discolouration of skin, etc. As the autopsies were inconsistent and challenged by the time, weather, and the elements, it could mean that Soviet provincial science was not entirely up to snuff.
Asr?n S?rr?
08-01-2017 03:16 (GMT)
Hello to everyone.
Best scenario: - The fact that they closed access for a few years is revealing. Why,- because of radiation. The incident happened elsewhere - somewhere on their proper route. That area had high radiation, due to military weapon / UFO. So they moved the bodies somewhere away from the actual event to confuse things, as well as to protect any search people from high radiation? The pilot observed the tent with bodies, while the soldiers were relocating the group to the radiation free area. Because of the radiation left on bodies/clothes of group, Lev Ivanov was informed to carry a radiation detector. The fact there is a (damaged) pole at the tent also could be a mistake by the soldiers, or whoever was moving things around. Alternatively it could have been intentionally left by a soldier who was disgusted at what they were doing & who wished to leave a clue as to the lack of authenticity of the scene. If it hadn't been for Yuri Yakimov revealing the light set events, I would have went with military. But that's too much of a coincidence to happen in this area also. It could be the Mansi reference to mountain has more meaning than we think, going back ages, it could be a sort of 'dimensional' gateway or at least an area where there is more than usual UFO activity. There seem to be certain areas where they are more prevalent. UNQUOTE I thought about the noise made by explosions but the students who reported the lights on the Chistop Massif were 30 miles away and the wind was blowing away from them carrying the sound. The Mansi settlement at Ushma is closer but still several miles and again the wind is an issue. I also gain the impression that the Mansi were willing to help out but didn’t want to get drawn into any contentious issues. Especially as nine people were dead and the authorities may have been looking to point the finger at someone.
Nigel Evans
05-01-2017 19:08 (GMT)
Hi Asrin
Yes i'll add my comments to the other page.
It's no problem for me if google translate makes communication clumsy. Good ideas are not limited to people who can write in English.
2. the fire is estimated to have burnt for 1.5 hours through 8 cm logs. It seems it was a good campfire. Not an ineffective one as claimed in the youtube video. 5. two members of the group were outside keeping watch. If so it couldn't have been that cold.
But we will have to agree to disagree on the main point of this theory that they would elect to leave food, equipment and clothing (wet clothing is much preferable to less clothing in -20C), and especially their boots, just to go and light a fire in a more sheltered place. The main question with the dpi mystery is what made them leave everything behind?
Asr?n S?rr?
05-01-2017 17:39 (GMT)
Hello, everybody. I am doing this article with google translation help. @Nigel Evans You can write your comments on the person who prepared the video (Goruna X) as a comment. If you have animated dyatlov pass videos, would you like to link here? I want to look at all of them.
@Nigel Evans: I want to answer your questions.
1) I think after setting the tent, they realized that there was no firewood in the tent and they walked to the forest together, 4 people went to the forest before, they lost their direction and they were wounded. Others tried to warm up by the fire at the entrance to the forest. The cold influenced the mountaineers' thoughts negatively.
2) I could not understand what you said, sorry. (Google translate inefficiency)
3) I think it was going to go back to the tent by collecting dry wood, and they do not take their clothes to their side and not to be burdened. But it started to show no effect on the road.
4) This is your opinion, socks can be very strong, wool socks. As a result they may have made an incorrect decision.
5) I could not understand what you said, sorry. (Google translate inefficiency)
6) The fractures were probably after river side injuries.
As a result, I think this theory tells a big part of the story, but maybe not the whole story. I write the conversations with google translate, sorry.
Nigel Evans
05-01-2017 11:52 (GMT)
Asrim Sirri - thanks, that's a new theory i haven't come across before.
Thoughts :- 1. if it was an orderly retreat from the tent due to cold and wet then why didn't they take their three axes and food and some alcohol ? 2. the fire was relatively successful burning branches upto 8cm thick (estimated at 1.5 hours duration). 3. if the clothing was too wet to wear why not take it with them to dry by the fire? 4. i find it impossible to believe that they prefered walking in socks in say -20C instead of putting their wet boots on. These are intelligent people with alpine training. 5. the indications are that two members of the group were outside keeping watch. If so it couldn't have been that cold. 6. the pathologist is very specific about the cause of the fractures - high energy trauma "like from a car accident or the shockwave from a bomb". No broken limbs, collar bones etc but flail chests where the rib cage has been partly snapped vertically three times? I don't see how a collapsed snow cave could create this profile of injuries.
S.J.M.
05-01-2017 08:15 (GMT)
Better translation ;-) .......
I turn just following theory to the Dyatlov to discusion:
The disaster happened in two parts, without any foreign influence:
The first part was a drug experiment of the five members (Rustem Slobodin, Yuri Doroshenko, Yuri Krivonischenko, Igor Dyatlov and Zinaida Kolmogorova) at the edge of the forest under the pine tree. Possibly, with the help of psychedelic substances, a "shamanistic" experience at the campfire would be made. This was either done with the help of regional mushrooms or LSD-derivatives, which may have been brought along, as well. (I do not know whether gastric contents or blood were examined 1959 ?!) In both cases there was probably a certain contamination and/or overdosing in the game, Which, in addition to the horrortrip, also leads to an accelerated cooling (by a centralization shock, possibly in combination with the "paradoxical undressing", and would, by the way, explain the orbicular discolouration of the skin of the victims of death, namely by icterus in liver failure. In addition, in this type trip often flight-fantasies occur, which would clarify the climbing of the tree. I also can not exclude a conscious undressing to intensify the "natural experience". Also not untypical would be the search for the little melting creek for the purpose of "purification" or thirst quenching or the desire to neutralize in case of poisoning-phenomena.
Part two: When the first group suddenly realized that there was something extraordinary going on the way, Dyatlov, Kolmogorova and Slobodin wanted to reach the (possibly nothing anticipating or sleeping) rest of the group (Lyudmila Dubinina, Alexander Kolevatov, Nikolai Thibeaux-Brignolle and Semyon Zolotaryov).
These, who were taken aback by the sleep very surprised and panicked, as someone was screaming or was busy at the entrance of the tent (possibly blocked by snow drift too), now fled down to the edge of the forest by slitting the side tent, where they found the other members of the "drug group" were probably in a corresponding condition.
This led either to further panic-like flight or uncontrolled searches for some aid in the direction of forest natures, downhill. They crashed into the snowy canyon with corresponding crash injuries such as fractures and tongue bites. Eyes by two members in my opinion were lost postmortal by animals or putrescence.(Zolotaryov and Dubinina were found over 2 months after accident !)
Whether the drug experiment was planned from the beginning, or even "sponsored" by some circles or even commanded, or simply developed on a whim, remains speculative of course. The only surviving member, the tour-departed Yuri Judin has probably never said (?).
The framework conditions were, in my opinion, fit in any case; 9 young adventurous, experience-seeking students at a time of emerging "mind-expending" substances in a solitary, mystical area..........
S.J.M.
AsrinSirri
04-01-2017 23:08 (GMT)
To me this seems to be the most simple and logical explanation to the mystery.
SJM - you should read Svetlana Oss's book "Don't go there", she has a murder theory that involves hallucinogenic substances. N.B. the pathologist ruled out falling as a cause of the fractures, and as the photos show these serious injuries have no surface tissue damage. An explosion is the best explanation.
S.J.M.
03-01-2017 14:23 (GMT)
psychedelic drugs, what else ? bad experiment.
leslie
03-01-2017 09:53 (GMT)
I am very curious about the youtube videos that expert posted, when hikers returned to the site of the tent amd the ravine. Would anyone be willing to offer a translation, at least of the highlights? what is the significance of the flags? at what point in the video are they in the ravine, and do they show the cedar tree in any of the videos? the den? hoping someone can shed light on this.
peter
01-01-2017 09:53 (GMT)
I think ti got it right back on 17-5-2016. It was not an avalanche but fear of an avalanche coupled with snow drifts that forced them to exit the tent.
I am not sure but the thought of 9 or 10 people being covered with tons of snow in a collapsed tent could be a compelling reason to exit immediately
Nigel Evans
24-12-2016 13:18 (GMT)
Bird - the tent is described as 2, 4 men tents sown together. You make a good point regarding the size of the tent but my guess is that :- a. modern materials permit much more tent room than in 1959, so the space was limited to the weight. b. the siberian winter nights are long and would allow enough time for two groups to rotate usage. It would have been wise to keep a watch for wild animals (wolves) so i could imagine that they have at least two men outside overnight probably with a fire. Indeed the footsteps in the snow suggest that was the case when they fled the tent (but no fire).
I think they were on the open ground beyond the trees to gain height for the following day. From memory their plan was to execute a three day circular hike returning to the base camp where they had left the food for the return journey. So the purpose of the camp that night was to achieve the altitude in order to make good distance the following day.
Bird
24-12-2016 12:16 (GMT)
Hello all. I'm from Central Europe and am interested in palaeontology, archeology, paleontology and unexplained mysteries. Thanks also to the creators behind this perfect site where absolutely everything about the expedition, including photographs. I also thought long on this mystery, until I saw the direction of detail where this man pulls. I would like to describe their observations as the other thing, and I deal with enough forensically to the smallest detail. It is unnecessary to elaborate on his theories here and entertain the detalily, because the main thing was before my eyes and not see it at first, then? That must see for anyone that 9 people (10 people) in the tent 4M X 1.8M nobody can come in during the entire journey expedition. Stan odhahuji to max. 3 persons and if we add backpacks and stuff, so they fit into the tent, perhaps none. Also, this way I miss the photographs. Where to sleep? Hm? Until resolved the question of how the tent 4 x 1.8 meters next to 9 people with backpacks, even things that were allegedly found in a tent, we can continue.
So the main question for me remains the size of the tent.
Nowhere in the photos is not seeing them spend the night and eating. Supposedly, they were experienced mountaineers. If I was a dress code for the disco (Dubinina) so I froze way. At least 10 days' journey in the mountains of Siberia, have too small backpacks. Most of the contents of a sleeping bag and mat and spare stuff. Where is the food for 10 people for 10 days? Tube tent to me is exhausting moisture, as would the tent is frozen and probably even suffocated. I have many theories, but one of radioactivity into contact just come and Kovalov employee was allegedly nuclear research. I believed in a version of infrasound, but it unfortunately falls, because they do not know how 9 people with backpacks, fits into the tent 4x1,8 meters. It is impossible. 6x4 meters ideal for 9 (10) persons.
So there is a version with transfer of radioactive material in the tent and never slept, because there will not fit. So where to sleep? How much did the dishes? Experienced mountaineer knows the counting and would have stayed down in the woods, or went behind the ridge. Pitch a tent there on top is illogical. The tent is obviously old and patched and most importantly is installed between the trees. Up there he fell on them. They would have to build a wall of snow and skis anchor the tent. Maybe the tent fell on them at night in a mad wind, but it applies to someone explain to me and understand that I never found that nobody cares how could fit 10 people into the tent 4 x 1.8 meters and with backpacks,.
Maybe we can not understand, because it never happened. Please views on the size of the tent vs 10 people.
I would also like to add: Bigfoot does not exist. He yeti wearing dark pants, a light jacket and dark gloves? (This is seen in the photo) Does your neck? Of course, it is a member of the expedition and a hooded and therefore has no neck. If the text is found in the tent that Bigfoot exists, it could be evidence of fraud or message to someone that their actions came out to surrender. Further, I also do not understand how they can film in cameras in 1959, survive in Siberia in the cold under the snow and to be quite ok.
The main question remains: how to fit 10 people into the tent and backpacks, with pipe measuring 4 x 1.8 m. This also applies to the previous stations down in forests. It's good to see the size and age of the tent and the people around him. Such tents would need 3 and not 1
Why someone is in deep winter on Siberian mountain in the middle of winter? Why not go in the summer when they were hikers? Sea issues, but without explaining how they went into the tent, not worth continuing. In addition to the mountain appoint Mountain of the Dead just for fun. It has a reason. Maybe there Mansove bury the dead, and they disrupted their cemeteries. That mark on the tree clearly indicates that it is their territory. Maybe they did, or shaman actually a story with Yetti invented to make people afraid to go there. Whole Mansovy understand. They want to have peace.
Nigel Evans
21-12-2016 17:31 (GMT)
luk- the stove was found dismantled, it wasn't used that evening.
Patrick
21-12-2016 04:52 (GMT)
The tent, as shown, is in the wrong spot. It should be shown over the next ridge to the north; which means the valley where the bodies were found is also over the ridge to the northwest.
Patrick
21-12-2016 04:47 (GMT)
The tent in you map should be over the ridge to the north of where it is currently shown.
luk
20-12-2016 22:09 (GMT)
Hello, what about the stove theory? I mean that the stove either exploded or the smoke was suffocating them
Nigel Evans
17-12-2016 12:38 (GMT)
someguy - hi
1. "Snowmen exist" - probably part of the folkore that springs up. E.g. the mansi give a hill the name "Dead Mountain" meaning there's nothing up there to hunt and this get converted into "Mountain of the Dead".
2. Parachute mines - this could explain a lot of the facts but evidence would be left (parachutes?) and Ivanov would not have given an interview later in life were he admitted his belief that it was the fireballs and facts directly supporting this were removed from the report.
3. Radiation - in the dim light of the morgue the staff reported that parts of the clothing had a purple glow. One theory is that they had visited abandoned mines on the trip and contaminated their clothing there. However that would presumably have resulted in alpha radiation not the beta that was found. Also a water test suggested that the original contamination could have been much higher.
4. Knives - the knive used to exit the tent and collect firewood was never found. They left hand axes in the tent.
5. Den - they didn't dig it. They just arranged branches in the floor of the ravine to shelter from the wind. There are indications of very high winds.
6. Don't think the body is relevant to the dpi.
7. There was another hiking group in the area a week later that witnessed "a light in the sky". Igor Dyatlov was training to be an alpine master and the leading the hike would raise his ranking. So not so unusual perhaps, permission had to be sought for the trip and a one member was refused and SZ substituted for him.
someguy
16-12-2016 18:10 (GMT)
6 hours reading about this mystery - quite intriguing! Thanks for the site.
I visited a few sites to try and get a view from all angles and theories. This site is nice since you can see the photos and medical information, plus the diary excepts is interesting.
1. "Snowmen exist" is mentioned elsewhere on the Internet but is not found in the English translation of the diary on this site. Several articles include the quote but the translation on this site makes me think this quote is false/fake. There is nothing in the diary translation that would hint at "snowmen exist" either. Could the author of the site confirm this on the diary page for future visitors?
2. Wikipedia (not a useful source, I know) has an interesting theory of parachute mines but this site doesn't mention it. Unfortunately there is no source cited on wikipedia for the parachute mine theory, but it is interesting none the less. It is mentioned that there was metal debris around the tent but nothing specific as to what kind of metal (size, shape) and if the metal could've belong to the hikers.
3. Speculation: The radiation on the shirt/pants seems like they were trying to use the lamp (as noted elsewhere the lamp had radiation elements within it) to keep themselves warm. The radiation reports indicate lower shirt/wrist / upper pants/waist, so perhaps the lamp was being kept near the waist or cuddled around?
4. I was curious as to the amount of cut marks in the tent photos. It looks as if multiple people were trying to cut the side of the tent. Was there any evidence found indicating what cutting tools were used? I believe it was said one person had a knife on their belt/carabiner. Were any of the cutting tools found outside of the tent or not on a person (like the flashlight)?
5. Was there any indication of tools used to dig out the "den"? Did they dig it out with their hands?
6. There was a report released by RT in January 2016 about a new body being discovered near the pass. After some research, it may be a hermit / homeless person that lived in a nearby town, however there is little information about him. It would be interesting to know when he died (if it was recent or closer to the death of the hikers) and why he was in that area to begin with.
7. Something that is curious to me is if this was a typical hike for people in the area? How many hikers in that era would've made the hike to the mountain each year? This information could give a "sample size" to show how many people hike in that location (ie. many = this incident is unique; few = this incident is stranger), or another sample is has this happened elsewhere in the world (ie. people suffering similar deaths while hiking in the winter). At least such data would give a reference point to better evaluate how strange this event was (typical or not).
RK
14-12-2016 07:03 (GMT)
An additional thing I have to say: this page is very great! Thank you for the work and the amount of useful and clear informations!
RK
13-12-2016 15:28 (GMT)
Sorry, but I find it is not to believe how many strange ideas should be responsible for this incident. However, I was a soldier, have medical experiences and educations in technology and radiology. I read many about this case and like everybody seem this case almost to solve, but nevertheless does not fit. Always close, but then there is another argument. Traces, radiology, injuries, some behavior of the members is right, some not. Which investigations are right? Which doubtful? When somebody sees any lights in the sky and hear about radiology in combination with a strange incident we have immediately extraterrestrial, military or strange nature items in our heads. But in almost every strange case which has solved it was…surprise…the people for themselves. The investigations are insufficient. Some examples. Radiology on clothes at this time is not unusual. In this time were some x-ray exams made with clothes. Some clothes were produced with radiology-included colors. The investigation of the traces is absolutely unbelievable. What was the real cause of death of the members especially the ravine group. Three of them had the most injuries (pressure-injuries) and they were under 4 meters of snow? They were lying in a creek month of melting snow-waters. The branches of the cedar were cut in the direction of the tent. If I want climb on a tree to look in a direction I cut the branches on the other side (example: slobodin’s picture frame nr.5). I want escape from a tent and nobody try to pull the buttoned entrance, everybody search first for the knife to destroy the only habitation that would save my life (and if just later)? And why this extrem big hole? In a case of emergency with 7 or 9 people the most would use the hole of the precursor. It would be faster. And then I go without rush to the woods? The cuts in eye-level are in the escape-direction? I would flee off the danger. What is right what is wrong? The first question I have: If I were in a tent with 7 or 9 people, what have to happened to rip the tent in this big size of one side? Right, it could be an emergency incident. Maybe a defective oven. Maybe a threat from outside. The next question should to be: was the tent already collapsed and is this maybe the reason for the big hole? In a collapsed tent it is hard to find the exit, it is dark, I am afraid, there is a threat inside or outside…a good reason for all members to destroy the tent in the length. But the cuts are straight from to bottom, sign for a not collapsed tent. Several members cut a intact tent at the same time in one direction and all stroll without rush in the forest the most without sufficient clothes. Why? There are only two reasons: The danger is absolute directly or there were forced. And here the hamster begins to hobble: 2 theories, 2 ways:
Way one: If the danger is directly why they went without rush to the woods? Is the danger only in the range of the tent and they could not went back? Which kind of danger could that be?
Way two: If there were forced why did they destroy the tent? Were they forced to destroy the tent too? And why did they destroy it from the inside? Was the danger from the inside? Was the danger a member of the group or another person?
If I combine the Theories: Was the threat a member of the group or another person, forced them to destroy the tent or did his himself and hound the others away or in the direction of the forest? Maybe in rage and regardless the lack of clothes?
Is this a start of a fight first for clothes then for survive?
I think it is important to find out what is happened in the tent. At the photos we see a good mood and atmosphere until the last day. The last day the weather was badly and they had to put up the tent in deep snow and a slope. Maybe the atmosphere had turned.
If I leave out all the doubtful results of the investigations I see 9 young people, 7 male, 2 female, well trained for this trip, but in some faces not complete seriousness. I see a lot of fun. I see a lot of young power. I see many injuries of fight with hands. I believe to see an incredible tragedy caused of emotions of young people.
Nigel Evans
11-12-2016 15:01 (GMT)
Expert - sorry i don't understand the first line.
I don't think you've properly understood what the pathologist is saying. The strength and transient nature of the force rules out many other causes. The easiest explanation is barotrauma from an explosion. LD's rib cage was cracked twice in the upper right hand side but not cracked in the lower half at all. Do you understand what sort of force is strong enough to start cracking the ribs twice but not for long enough to reach the lower half? It was strong, local and highly transient. You can't reproduce this with a rifle butt or stamping etc etc. Plus there was no tissue damage anyway.
I contradict you repeatedly on timelapse of your opinion . You couldn't have answered properly about the question. (the question point of me is that the incident didnot happened by natural force )
but you still keep insisting
the pathologist was comparing only the power to car crash or bomb but which did not mean they died of car crash or bomb
and Ivanov did not say the ball was ball lightening phenomenon. give me link
Nigel Evans
11-12-2016 12:57 (GMT)
Robs - i thnk i've discussed the injuries at length to justify the BL theory?
To repeat my case :-
The pathologist stated that the flail chests required very specific forces such as in a car accident or (and this is the crucial point) "like from the shockwave of a bomb". N.B. he ruled out falling. So this and the unusual number of dead birds points strongly at an explosion.
Then you have eye witness reports a week later of a light in the sky followed by two explosions.
Other evidence is burnt tree tops, burnt people, local beliefs, radioactivity, skin colour possibly due to radiation.
All of this fits with historical accounts of ball lightning wth the exception of radiation.
So it's no brainer really. That's why Ivanov had to choose it.
Robs
11-12-2016 10:58 (GMT)
Yes I get that Nigel but how do you explain the injuries. Plus the photo of the scene before and after shows no evidence of an avalanche or massive high winds etc as the tent and surroundings (like the ski still upright) remains untouched
Nigel Evans
11-12-2016 10:50 (GMT)
Expert/Robs - I think we can remove alien contact as a theory for the DPI. The fact that they fled the tent but built a fire nearby whilst still unable to return to the tent is a strong tool for removing possible causes. Either they were prisoners or it was a natural force that they had no reason to fear 1500m away. Imo the prisoner theory doesn't work. Force them to leave the tent undressed but let them build a fire and a den? Much better is that they had to flee the tent from a threat and were waiting to return from a location they believed to be safe. But they misjudged the threat and it's potential to kill.
Expert
11-12-2016 09:11 (GMT)
Nigel
Expert
11-12-2016 09:09 (GMT)
Neigel / Even the gap between australopitecus and modern human is calculated only about 3 millions years . (argon date) the number is a little in the universe. There are tremendous amount of star systems billions ahead of ours ..
but I agree with your opinion. when we solve unexplained phenomenon the first is to consider the result from inner space the last is to consider the result from outer space that is right way to solve it.
Robs
10-12-2016 16:16 (GMT)
I agree with Nigel on the UFO theory. There is no proof and you can blame UFOs for any mystery in history.
Nigel Evans
10-12-2016 14:42 (GMT)
Expert - i've got a degree in physics and i'm sure that if aliens are visiting us they will view our science like we look at our stone age. However my problem with reports of alien contact is the lack of evidence unless the conspiracy theories are to be believed (global government cover-up). Hence I favour natural phenomena that science cannot as yet explain, together with hallucination, the latter possibly a result of the former...
Apart from what beings they are .. every visitors (from no this planet) must overwhelm human science . because human physics for universe travelling is limited in relative theory-Einstein
There are many witnesses relative to aliens. but,those tend to be discounted by no scientific evidence. (though it have been known radioactive was sometimes detected around those sites where aliens were reported)
Expert
09-12-2016 22:27 (GMT)
Their ribs broken or body discovered under 4M snow .. would be explained by the assumption.
Expert
09-12-2016 22:16 (GMT)
Dubin and Zolota could be thrown out of craft after abducting
Expert
09-12-2016 20:02 (GMT)
I know what peoples think when I mention about aliens. but I am not a believer in fairy and i am not a fan of StarWars . I just need to say the possibility of alien attack could be high in this incident. if we exclude it , it is hard to explain in right logic
Expert
09-12-2016 10:31 (GMT)
drunk and sleepy.
Expert
09-12-2016 10:28 (GMT)
i wanna write .. but now , i am drunk haha . so next
Expert
09-12-2016 10:22 (GMT)
becos they were so cold to death. go into -25 with slight wear . then you can say.
Nigel Evans
08-12-2016 17:21 (GMT)
Expert - ok so they flee the tent to escape an alien craft but then they light a camp fire?
Expert
07-12-2016 15:45 (GMT)
Next ...................
Expert
07-12-2016 15:43 (GMT)
I know some case about alien craft. even there are some cases about sky balls in our country
Expert
07-12-2016 15:40 (GMT)
I am thinking the sky ball was alien craft.
Expert
07-12-2016 15:39 (GMT)
He thought earlier sky ball was clearly relative to the incident ...... and said close one '' the sky ball would be spaceship or natural phenomenon or new weapon . ''
Expert
07-12-2016 15:25 (GMT)
He=Ivanov
Expert
07-12-2016 15:23 (GMT)
I read there was a interview of him in 1990's he would know what happened then. about mystery of the incident. 1960 and 1990 are very different age on science. He could think somethings more than then..
Expert
07-12-2016 15:17 (GMT)
6 hikers seemingly died of hypothermia. but that was not all. they died after chemical attack. they couldn't feel cold maybe.. by chemical anesthesia . I am thinking now.. whether the balls are artificial force or natural force.
It have been know Ivanov maybe could have some photos that weren't announced on public
There were more photos about sky balls . it looks like nothings . but some hikers took it repeatedly (Zolotarev, probably, took 19 shots. The objects seemed to move in the direction of the Pass because the images get bigger. )
Expert
07-12-2016 14:09 (GMT)
The chemical cause turned their hair, skin
Expert
07-12-2016 14:05 (GMT)
See 2 corpse under cedar or Slobodin corpse. It looks like they were sleeping at summer night.
they might die of hypothermia after anesthetized or stunned.
(1) All 9 hikers were attacked by something . ( though specially fatal attack was for Ravine peoples )
(2)6 peoples except for 3 peoples were known to die of hypothermia. but that was just result of physical looks in 1959 medical.
I think there were chemical attack by something.
Nigel Evans
06-12-2016 21:34 (GMT)
Purplehorn because it doesn't fit with the facts. That's why the police investigation didn't go for it.
Robs
06-12-2016 09:06 (GMT)
There were no boot prints of the 9 around the tent. So they either setup the tent in bare foot or the prints were covered. So if the prints were covered then prints of hijackers could be covered? And yes it could have been murder from within the group but no one survived ... why?
Expert
06-12-2016 06:15 (GMT)
PurpleHorn / if so, how to be explained ''9 mansi killed in past time'' or ''the cause of 9hikers's gray hair, dark orange skin'' or .......... I think it is unlikely
Robs / think no footprints of invader - that would be why official investigator Ivanov turn his idea from murder(people) to hovering balls .
PurpleHorn
06-12-2016 00:24 (GMT)
Why do so many leave out the simplest idea that there was conflict within the group?
Robs
05-12-2016 17:48 (GMT)
Why do they need aircraft why couldn't they walk? Something made them leave the tent with little or no clothing knowing they would die soon. 4 were killed in the ravine. 2 died never trying to get back to the tent. 3 died trying to get back to tent. I can see no other reason than being hijacked internally or externally
Expert
05-12-2016 16:01 (GMT)
I must consider again. . . . to solve this incident it cannot be discounted - 500M Site ! their foot prints disappeared or covered with snow .. any information (like photos) ??????
Expert
05-12-2016 12:28 (GMT)
My first question is useless. but what about second question ?
Expert
05-12-2016 12:02 (GMT)
Robs / What type of aircraft did the hijackers use ?
Expert
05-12-2016 09:31 (GMT)
Robs / it is written on this site - A chain of eight or nine sets of footprints, left by several people who were wearing socks, a single shoe or barefoot, could be followed and led down towards the edge of nearby woods (on the opposite side of the pass, 1.5 km north-east) but after 500 m they were covered with snow.
disappear ? or covered with snow ?
Robs
04-12-2016 20:22 (GMT)
My theory is that hijackers forced them to leave tent with no shoes and little clothing knowing that they would soon die (and attacked them later). The tracks disappeared just like the tracks from the 9'when they setup camp
Expert
04-12-2016 17:15 (GMT)
I misread. About footprint disappeared 500 M from tent. just covered with snow. . . . . . this made me puzzled haha
Expert
04-12-2016 16:56 (GMT)
Robs / that was zolotaryov's , which puzzled researchers earlier before he was discovered with his leather boots. Ivanov concluded nobody around the site , the day
Robs
04-12-2016 13:38 (GMT)
There must have been boot prints around the tent. Otherwise the 9 setup the tent without boots which is impossible.
Snow sports is not my favorite . So I Research how perfectly the shoes could remove footprints . ( even poles leave sharp trace behind )
I remove the possibility of military.
Expert
04-12-2016 01:13 (GMT)
their goal was otorten where Mansi warned . they would want a thrill with curiosity. but Mansi warning became real. I am reading Mansi interview. they seemingly watched everything relative to their death (death of fellow tribes , weird death of some animals , hovering balls. . ) Mansi tribes were afraid of going there. So, they named it Otorten.
Expert
04-12-2016 00:10 (GMT)
the Russian was walking even with barefoot. total angle of the terrain was gentle with much snow.
when I watched the videos , I guess injuries of the 9hikers were caused by attack - not while running .
Expert
03-12-2016 23:49 (GMT)
This videos were the pass of the hikers at the day. (from tent to ravine)
this mystery can not be explained in close age, if it is not explained with open mind.
many scientists explained the globe was flat . but they could not explain why last land had not been discovered .
Expert
03-12-2016 17:09 (GMT)
And why do Nobody explain about one that need to be explained ? ? footprints of 9hikers along 500 meters site from tent . where ,, why did it evaporate ?
Nigel Evans
03-12-2016 14:11 (GMT)
Expert - don't know, could be just one that stayed by the tent for say an hour before heading down to the ravine, or it could be two separate BL events. We'll never know the exact sequence or reasons, all we have are the facts, which are :- 1. they fled the tent very quickly. 2. they would not return to the tent preferring to stay by the fire and the den. 3. tree tops were burnt. 4. 2 of them suffered burns. 5. 4 of them died from injuries consistent with an explosion. 6. eye witness accounts describe lights/explosions a week later. 7. the mansi people blamed the golden orbs. 8. an experienced police investigator was forced to agree with them.
Expert
03-12-2016 13:40 (GMT)
You answer second question of me -> if BL chased the hikers , why did BL give them time ?
so you said it - 2 or more than 2. one was around tent. another was around cedar or ravine. Right ?
Expert
03-12-2016 13:30 (GMT)
the video below your reply .
Nigel Evans
03-12-2016 13:03 (GMT)
Expert - what video?
No my theory is they fled the tent to escape the BL there which did not follow until later or it was another one. No chasing down the hill.
These two entries from wikipedia have all of the necessary elements to explain the DPI, BL covering distance to reach group, killing individuals and explosive force. N.B. the mast might have been 20 inches in diameter.
In December 1726 a number of British newspapers printed an extract of a letter from John Howell of the sloop Catherine and Mary:
As we were coming thro’ the Gulf of Florida on 29th of August, a large ball of fire fell from the Element and split our mast in Ten Thousand Pieces, if it were possible; split our Main Beam, also Three Planks of the Side, Under Water, and Three of the Deck; killed one man, another had his Hand carried of [sic], and had it not been for the violent rains, our Sails would have been of a Blast of Fire.[10][11]
The Montague
One particularly large example was reported "on the authority of Dr. Gregory" in 1749:
Admiral Chambers on board the Montague, 4 November 1749, was taking an observation just before noon...he observed a large ball of blue fire about three miles distant from them. They immediately lowered their topsails, but it came up so fast upon them, that, before they could raise the main tack, they observed the ball rise almost perpendicularly, and not above forty or fifty yards from the main chains when it went off with an explosion, as great as if a hundred cannons had been discharged at the same time, leaving behind it a strong sulphurous smell. By this explosion the main top-mast was shattered into pieces and the main mast went down to the keel.
Five men were knocked down and one of them very bruised. Just before the explosion, the ball seemed to be the size of a large mill-stone.[2]
I am thinking that (after watching the video) 1. the distance between tent and ravine is shorter than I thought . 2. terrain angle is gentle ..
So, they (attacker and escaper) might watch easily the lights- each others possessed . . . . . .
It is unlikely their ribs broken happened by falling into ravine . (( there were much snow piled on gentle terrain. )
Expert
03-12-2016 12:27 (GMT)
This is the video I really wanted for investigation on internet. and I recommend peoples here watch this video - some Russian investigators walking along hikers 's pass ( from the tent site to the last ravine site ) .
Expert
03-12-2016 08:26 (GMT)
Robs guess they fell into ravine, got ribs broken.. after that,, some eyeballs removed by scavengers .
Nigel guess they got ribs broken by BL .. after that,, some eyeballs removed by scavengers .
If eyeballs,tongue were not removed by scavengers in nature, the force must be artificial force.
Expert
03-12-2016 07:45 (GMT)
Ravine 4 injuries were made by artificial force.
Expert
03-12-2016 07:43 (GMT)
And The thing Teddy said "all soft tissue of them must have been damaged.
i think this is very important. to say whether ravine 4 got the injury by mistake or by attack.
Expert
03-12-2016 07:35 (GMT)
Nigel // you need to explain this question. they clearly were frightened by something around their exit. and you claim something is ball lightening.
1) there have been such BL phenomenon reported that fly with group ? - Witnesses said a group of balls hovering
2) if BL chased the hikers , why did BL give them time ? (this sounds unlikely) -It took time for them to make a fire , dig a den......
you explain it as a physics . BL have electronic and life have electronic. so the hikers were chased by BL.
I assume the balls could wander around the tent. that is why they watched out and did not come back in sever weather. and it might be possible there re-appeared around cedar there was ,at least, 2th attack around ravine.
Expert
03-12-2016 06:58 (GMT)
Teddy // You mentioned a important thing - to say whether ravine 4 got the injury by mistake or by attack.
# About Eyeballs , tongue removed .
I don't think the injuries happened by the scavenger. (I like to watch nature documentary, book or article.. that is one of hobbies of me) I wonder which life eat other life like those way. . . ? ? ? ? ? ? Investigators have to mention the cause as this injuries are important. They would know those weren't caused by scavengers bite. ( at least , there were microscopes in 1959. though they were poor compared to now)
Nigel Evans
01-12-2016 13:00 (GMT)
Teddy - no probs.
Rib theories :- 1. Ball lightning - A week after the deaths eye witnesses saw a light moving through the sky and subsequently reported two explosions. Historical accounts of BL include substantial explosive force. So this was the bomb that the pathologist suggested. 2. The local mansi have a hallucinogenic mushroom (fly agaric?) that assists them jumping high in rituals. However these injuries are consistent with falling 60 feet so they'd have to be jumping high! and no skin injuries to support such impact. 3. Military accident during exercise - unlikely because it would have (a) been reported so no need for an investigation (police / kgb teams on site for three months) or b) explosive device would have left some fragments.
An unusual number of dead birds (white grouse) were found around the ravine. An explosion is the best theory to explain the rib fractures and hence the skull fractures.
Teddy
01-12-2016 10:56 (GMT)
I was commenting on Rain's question about blood in the lungs and got carried away. I wanted to testify that there was blood in the lungs for sure. Nigel, the cause of the tongue injury is speculative, but I have not heard a theory about the ribs so far. I know what could cause it, but who inflicted it and how. i think even Rakitin doesn't explain that.
Nigel Evans
01-12-2016 10:00 (GMT)
Teddy - Wow you're lucky to be alive, hope you've fully recovered.
Yes you're echoing the pathologists report that the injuries required substantial energy like in a car crash or the shockwave from a bomb, his words.
But LD did lose her top lip as well as the tongue so it could be natural causes via predation, a theory being that she bit it hard in the "event", swallowed a little blood before dying, predation from something with a low consumption rate doing the rest.
Teddy
30-11-2016 18:09 (GMT)
Another thing - what caused my trauma is high velocity impact - I was mounted in the back of a truck, much like this http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Krivonischenko-camera-film6-05.jpg the truck going down a mountain and the brakes failed. The truck lost control and we smashed into a rock with 70 km/h. So I tell you - you can not break your ribs by falling down a snow slope or somebody hitting you with a heavy bat. This is what is puzzling me, even if there were people pointing guns at them, how did they manage to inflict such a horrific injuries? A butt of a rifle can cause and most probably did cause Slobodin's skull fracture http://dyatlovpass.com/death#Slobodin but not Dubinina's broken ribs. Zolotaryov had similar rib fractures http://dyatlovpass.com/death#Zolotaryov
Teddy
30-11-2016 17:52 (GMT)
Dubinina had 10 broken ribs on both sides. Please refer to http://dyatlovpass.com/death#Dubinina I had similar injury - flail chest with lung contusion http://distal-humerus.com/resources/320/gallery/2012-07-24-X-Ray-chest.jpg They drained my right lung for 10 days - it was a pulp. My prognosis was dim. Dubinina had twice as much broken ribs but she didn't drown in her own blood because a broken rib pierced her heart. The cause of death is stated as hemorrhage into right atrium of the heart, multiple fractured ribs and internal bleeding More interesting is that there were 100 g of coagulated blood in her stomach which means she swallowed after her tongue was ripped out. Photos of Lyudmila from the morgue clearly show that there is no damage to the mouth, nose, ears or other soft tissues. If the body was devoured by scavengers, insects or even fish in the water these would be the first parts of the body that would show signs of damage.
Rain
30-11-2016 17:07 (GMT)
Was there any blood found in Dubinina's lungs?
Nigel Evans
30-11-2016 15:24 (GMT)
the threat was strong enough for them to ignore the axes in the tent.
Accidentally killed in a military exercise would be reported and there would no need for an investigation. Plus no foot prints found.
It has to be murder or natural force of some kind. If murder then the murderers tried to look after them first.....
Expert
30-11-2016 06:37 (GMT)
Nobody was shot by soldier gun. but what made them urgent ?? and where have soldiers footprint gone ?
Expert
30-11-2016 06:34 (GMT)
but it seem that they did not resist but just run urgently , did not come back before death.. Though soldiers seemingly did not shot them, why they were so scared ??????????
Expert
30-11-2016 06:28 (GMT)
But that made me confused is that - there were soldiers of witnesses . they watch hovering object. but none of them did not say illuminating shell . (soldiers can distinguish it easily )
and personally i cannot understand the situation - why there were no footprint of soldiers. soldiers would give them time to leave from the site. or soldiers would arrest them to investigate about why they were there or what goal they had or how they got to know the site.
Expert
30-11-2016 06:05 (GMT)
illuminating shell .When It is used at night, we can see as at night as at day . it could make tree top burnt
Expert
30-11-2016 05:59 (GMT)
I think.. It is hard for usual peoples to do the threaten. . 9Mansi also killed in past time. (even except for 9 killed by airplane accident)
# The possibility of military. I was a soldier. (all men in our country have duty on military) Where i was on duty was around border line. (our country was divided by war . long time before)
There is tension along the border (in military zone) -Usual citizens banned from entering the zone.
if someones are found in the zone, 1-soldiers would warn them go out . if they don't obey the order, we report it to our senior.. waiting for order. or when they extremely resist with weapon, soldiers can shot with militant gun.
that is usual way.
Military is the organism run by order.
i thought the possibility of military was high. because the force seemed to be very strong.
9 peoples (containing 7 guys) couldn't think any resistant with only panic. Even tent torn in sever cold.
the force must be very strong.
Nigel Evans
29-11-2016 21:53 (GMT)
Thought that last post was worth restating :-
That they fled the tent and then lit a fire instead of returning to the tent rules out a lot of possibilities.
EITHER a) fleeing a natural force that remained at the tent after they had reached the trees. OR b) prisoners of something/someone that insisted they leave the tent without footwear but let them light a fire and strip the first two in order to stay warm and build a den in the shelter of the ravine. But then killed them....
I'll stick with a)
Nigel Evans
29-11-2016 18:27 (GMT)
That they fled the tent but then lit a fire rules out a lot of possibilities. Either fleeing a natural force or prisoners of something/someone that insisted they leave the tent without footwear but let them light a fire and strip the first two in order to stay warm and build a den in the shelter of the ravine. But then killed them....
Expert
29-11-2016 16:50 (GMT)
I think sincerely the possibility of extraterrestrial.
Expert
29-11-2016 16:46 (GMT)
the Last photo was like hovering object taken by Krivonischenko .
But the photo taken really in last time would be zolotaryov's. it might be real reason why ravine 4 were attacked. he would take a surprising photo. ( he protect his camera around his neck. )
other ones .. what about that ?
29-11-2016 14:54 (GMT)
hovering ball was nothing with the incident. injuries happened by their accident. it make the incident easier.
If i discount Ivanov , Robs opinion is heard "proper".
Expert
29-11-2016 14:36 (GMT)
that might be very simple incident. . . Chaser and Runner at night. (but , footprint of chaser around tent ?? )
Expert
29-11-2016 14:29 (GMT)
this is my contradiction to Robs opinion. but when i communicated wih you, rather i thought it . if i discount some arguement, Robs opinion is heard logic to me .
In other words, Everyone might have made simple incident so complex.
Expert
29-11-2016 14:19 (GMT)
(1) i still dont understand why investigators did not leave mention - eyeballs or tongue by animals. (we are just talking about that .. watching photo , but they watched real injury)
(2)Ivanov concluded no one around the day and the site. (but you Robs guess it - by human)
(3) I read medical report - ravine 4 died earlier than others (i will check out again)
(4) It seems that Ivanov the investigator consider burnt tree as a point. but a member of soviet congress forced him not to talk about that. (but Robs discount flying ball)
(5) radioactive
Robs
29-11-2016 13:35 (GMT)
I don't believe the doctors report. Remember this was 1959 and I think it was inaccurate. I find it difficult to understand how they can say they died in a certain order after months of being in the ravine. Also if clothes were missing off the ceder tree 2 and were found In the ravine then they were either stripped of clothing while still alive or the ravine 4 died after the ceder tree 2 (this is more likely)
Expert
29-11-2016 12:44 (GMT)
ravine .. my english -.-
Expert
29-11-2016 12:41 (GMT)
I will check the article out again
Expert
29-11-2016 12:40 (GMT)
I just read it at medical report - raven 4 died earlier than other 5
Expert
29-11-2016 12:38 (GMT)
I am thinking now... but your opinion is logical.
Robs
29-11-2016 12:26 (GMT)
Expert, yes I agree. However some of the clothes found at ravine were from ceder tree two. That means that the ceder tree died before the ravine 4 otherwise why take there clothes
Expert
29-11-2016 12:24 (GMT)
Ok, now .. our reply order ( answer after question ) is fused .. haha. anyway i am reading your opinion.
Expert
29-11-2016 12:18 (GMT)
as i said before, it might mean - all peoples dig a den around raven. and something attacked them. and the first death happened. and 5 peoples were scattered. I think it s possible logic
Robs
29-11-2016 12:17 (GMT)
People have reported seeing hovering lights all over the world many times none of which have been proven to kill multiple persons. I don't think the BL or lights are relevant. I'm Not denying that they weren't there but I don't think they chased the 9 and killed them. The injuries i have 2 opinions, 1. They fell into the Ravine which caused crushing injuries, they were attacked by persons unknown.
Expert
29-11-2016 12:14 (GMT)
Robs/ 2 under cedar died after raven 4 died ( medical test ) .. what about that ?
Expert
29-11-2016 12:02 (GMT)
If something was other human, which is also mystery .
Expert
29-11-2016 11:57 (GMT)
car crush like injury but no external injury.
Expert
29-11-2016 11:55 (GMT)
Mick and robs/ so,, How can you explain hovering balls ? or both of you think that is not relative with this incident ? how they left those injury - like car crush ?
Robs
29-11-2016 11:42 (GMT)
The bodies in the ravene were not found for 2 months. This means certainly animals could have done this. For every question there are two more. They were buried under 4 meters of snow, so when did that occur? Why were they wearing clothes of other members ? My opinion is that they were all at the ceder tree and then split up from there. That's the only explanation I think otherwise why would they be wearing each other's clothes?
Expert
29-11-2016 11:40 (GMT)
I need to check out more info. about natural flying ball like ball lighting . but I ask you another question - if there is an example of lighting ball in group type. (allegedly witnesses saw a group of hovering balls)
Expert
29-11-2016 11:31 (GMT)
that is a real wonder which life eat only eye balls of other life .. . Animals tend to leave their trace-such traces torn by bite or beak. .. even i doubt if there were snails around Siberia mountain stream in winter .
Robs
28-11-2016 18:09 (GMT)
That is a possibility Mick, certainly i think that the group were hijacked by persons unknown
Mick
28-11-2016 17:44 (GMT)
Earlier, the group had had an argument with a drunk man who claimed they'd stolen his wallet, so perhaps when he'd sobered up he got his friends to follow the hikers, and clubbed them in their tent?
Nigel Evans
28-11-2016 08:27 (GMT)
expert - something like water snails explains the assymmetry, LD eyes and tongue, SZ eyes other two untouched. Rodents would presumably attack all four bodies more evenly. Imo it's plausible that there aren't a lot of water snails around in a siberian winter.
The pathologist did not offer any opinion as the loss of her tongue. No one knows how it went.
Nigel Evans
27-11-2016 18:39 (GMT)
Robs - well Tunguska is a subject as big if not bigger than the dpi, but from memory - the main explosion can be explained by a bolide but only one with a very very very specific construction and mass to be able to survive the earth's atmosphere but not leave an impact crater. And a bolide doesn't help explain :- 1. eye witness accounts of many subsequent explosions for minutes afterwards (like cannonfire). 2. eye witness accounts of a large change in direction. 3. earthquake lights (from memory before and after the event) - daylight at midnight in parts of Europe. That's just off the top of my head.
I'm glad you are 99% certain that CM isn't caused by BL. Other people aren't so sure . One of the interesting features of CM is that the animals can be found in ground or on snow banks that show no signs of the animal walking there, as if they fell from the sky. N.B. these reports are from hard headed farmers, vets, police etc... Thrown by an explosion?
Ufo web sites are full of reports of bodies being found in remote places (e.g. google Unit 58) but you've got to believe in conspiracy theories to accept their case. If like me you don't then you would have to widen the time span. If you say how many recorded cases of fatalities in the last 500 years are due to BL i would guess at dozens maybe three figures, and that's where eye witnesses survive of course. Just because something is infrequent doesn't lessen it's suitability as an explanation of the dpi. A example of this is that someone has asked the question "how many people have been killed by meteorites in recorded history?" and the answer maybe 1000, apparently the ancient Chinese have records going back thousands of years. One guy (1800s?) was recorded as being hit in the chest as if shot from a rifle. Don't think he'd be consoled by the infrequency of the event...
Expert - Q. If it was natural phenomenon, where did eyes or tongue disappear ? A. I've answered this before, predation, e.g. water snails can be carnivorous.
Q. why did not they call others... hiding self from something ? A. Who are they going to call in the middle of a siberian forest? Ghostbusters?
Q. why did Soviet cover up a natural phenomenon ? A. It wasn't covered up, it was diluted to *unknown and compelling force" and the soviet authorities closed the area for three years to investigate. This was Soviet Russia where civil servants got arrested and shot for telling the truth.
Robs
27-11-2016 17:28 (GMT)
Nigel, I am sorry but I dont agree with your explanations. Tunguska was a meteorite is is almost 100% proved, cattle mutilations is unexplained but I can say 99% it's not BL. Nigel, In recent history, I mean in the last 20 years has anyone been killed let alone 9 people Killed or seriously injured due to BL?
Nigel Evans
27-11-2016 15:52 (GMT)
Robs - well as BL cannot be explained by our current science, it affords people like me - "supporters of the BL explanation for the DPI", the luxury of just making things up . So it's not hard to concoct theories.
Imo there are a number of phenomena that seem to be explainble (at leat in part) as due to a "geo motor effect" (BL, Tunguska, cattle mutilations), i.e. some as yet unknown (but probably based on electro magnetism) physics where there seems to be some interaction between the earth's magnetism and atmospheric static electricity, possbly compounded by solar wind activity (latitude=60). This interaction seems to create localised massless energy that persists for a limited time. These events are infrequent but can repeat at certain locations possibly due to the prevalence of suitable conditions within the ground and latitude.
But regarding the DPI :- 1. They fled the tent by the close proximity of BL at or near the entrance. 2. The "campfire two" deaths have multiple possible explanations, fall from tree plus lost conscious whilst unattended and falling too close to the fire (burns, charring) or electrocution from BL. Imo the proximity of the den to the campfire suggests that the remaining seven saw no threat and hence that leans against BL so probably natural causes. 3. The remaining group (all 7) are in the ravine when the same BL at the tent or a new event moves towards them scorching tree tops. It then explodes (a known feature of BL) with great force and heat, killing four of them immediately (injuries consistent with explosion trauma) or they expired shortly afterwards, LD bit her tongue in the explosion and had time to swallow blood, the wound subsequently attracting predation. The explosion kills a significant number of birds roosting in the trees nearby. 4. The remaining three are the hardest to explain, all seem to be returning to the tent but expire in a close grouping. ID has clear signs of hypothermia, but the other two less so. The overnight temperature in the area in general was -20C and it is estimated that on the mountain it would have been closer to -30C. And of course there could have been some other reduction of temperature connected with BL? If the BL was giving off heat it could have created a localised artificial wind, reducing the local temperature in the immediate vicinity (that cold spot is ribbed a sign of high winds). I have a memory of reading a report from local mansi of extremely high winds that night, this contradicting the official weather reports.. So best guess is that the explosion weakened them, they were exposed to extreme cold (possibly supercold?), they could have suffered radiation exposure that the autopsies missed (radiation was found on their clothing but could have been picked up from exploring disused mines) and this resulting in them expiring at a similar time. 5. As to the question - "why would the BL be attracted to groups of people, well human beings are electrical systems rich in metal compounds so perhaps the answer lies there (but we don't know). BL accounts clearly describe how it interacts with metal (follows overground, underground cables etc.). Or the ravine could slightly closer to underground metal deposits than the rest of the ground, etc etc etc.
Robs
27-11-2016 13:57 (GMT)
Nigel, please can you explain why they left the tent due to BL, then explain how it followed them, then explain how it killed 4 in the ravine, then explain how it killed the 3 returning to the tent, then explain how it kept the two from returning from the tree to the tent ?
Nigel Evans
27-11-2016 12:15 (GMT)
Robs - a frequent occurence of BL is that a single object divides into several - "a string of pearls". Indeed the last link from expert records an eye witness account of this.
Daniel - any explanation of BL has to account for it's mobility over potentially many miles, see my BBC link below. Specifically wrt the dpi - formation at altitude in the clouds, travelling through the sky (for many miles?) slowly descending to ground level. It's fascinating stuff, one account describes how BL appeared within a passenger jet, exited harmlessly through the pressurised fuselage and then bounced along the wing perpendicular to the airstream (approx 400mph). If you're interested in more accounts Paul Sagan's - Ball Lightning A Paradox of Physics, is a cheap source of hundreds of eye witness accounts mainly from the scientists, engineers and military at Oak Ridge Labs - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oak_Ridge_National_Laboratory
Robs
26-11-2016 16:58 (GMT)
The bodies weren't found for weeks. Footprints couldhave easily been made or covered without any hassle including the hijackers foot prints (if that's what happened) the BL theory is just too far fetched for me, to make them Leave the tent in such a panic, apparently follow them and kill them at different locations doesn't seem right
Daniel
26-11-2016 15:17 (GMT)
Hello, My opinion is that indeed the all nine people had to do with an extraordinary phenomenon involving (in my opinion) an atmospheric electricity process. A large-scale electrical discharge (a unique plasma discharge) generated by landscape configuration and tectonic plates stress in the area. In laboratory simulation, high-intensity electrical discharges (see Dense Plasma Focus device - https://lppfusion.com/fusion-power/dpf-device/ ) are associated with X, gamma radiation, heat release and other effects. To see if indeed the environment in that area can create large scale electrical discharges with unique features you need to have some measurement devices (voltmeter, amperemeter, magnetometer)and patience. The process is cyclical.
I have a description of this hypothetical process - I could send it in pdf format?
Expert - thanks for the links, but everyone please be aware that my virus software (Symantec) blocks some of the links within the first page as attack sites.
Some interesting details though that i haven't heard of before :- 1. a cold spot near the tent due to a heat source melting the snow and refreezing. This ould be freeze thaw from the sun but the situation doesn't seem to fit that possibility. 2. An unusual number of dead birds found in the area by the rescue party. An explosion would explain that of course. 3. The snow that covered the ravine four was four meters deeps and very solid (frozen) requiring a lot of digging. The depth could be due to drifts but this doesn't explain the solidity. But both the depth and solidity can be easily explained due to a heat source melting the snow on the sides of the ravine that then slid down over the bodies and then refroze...
Robs
25-11-2016 21:44 (GMT)
The key to the whole mystery is the tent and the reason that the had the escape quickly. Once you have that answer the rest will be obvious (just my opinion). I have thought about the reason and knowing that they were experienced mountaineers and scientists or at least students the only reason i can think of is they were hijacked by internal or external persons.
John
24-11-2016 09:27 (GMT)
I should clarify. By similar injury I mean impact related or blunt force broken rips skull fractures the like. I have a theory about the woman who bit off her tongue. But I'm doing some digging into that before I post it.
Expert
23-11-2016 00:19 (GMT)
All my possibility is limited in ''gun man or alien from space or yeti'' (I don't believe in Yeti. there is little possibility but I can't discount it in this incident.)
Expert
23-11-2016 00:04 (GMT)
I am thinking about that - the first discovered pose of Dubina
she was climbing stone in stream ( though it was very cold winter ) and she was discovered in that pose
- she would be alive with removed eyeballs .
Expert
22-11-2016 23:55 (GMT)
and something wasn't any animal
Expert
22-11-2016 23:53 (GMT)
1.Something did not chase them as soon as they run .. but started to chase them after some time.
2.They did not call each other after scattered - it mean they tried to hide oneself from something.
I am saying that wasn't any natural force.
Expert
22-11-2016 23:41 (GMT)
John // all of them had similar injury ? I didn't understand it exactly.
John
21-11-2016 12:01 (GMT)
Expert. Given the near universal presence of impact related injuries I'm wondering about the construction of the tent it seems the only way all of them could have such similar injuries is if initial incident occurred at the tent. Keeping in mind experienced hikers cut their way out of a tent in a dangerously cold area.
Expert
20-11-2016 05:56 (GMT)
There are many videos some Russians explored on the site..
Expert
20-11-2016 05:51 (GMT)
.. well........... i need to correct my last reply. i am not sure every fire can be sensed on the place. but a chaser could find their fire site easily in night time. ANany way , Russians would get more information. from their updated research. i need to check out the more information
Expert
19-11-2016 23:33 (GMT)
i found interesting thing on the russia site linked. On the place where the tent was made ,a Viewer could see every light. If something was artificial force, it seems that the force could see every light the students made. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AIDi2udwl8 ( 4:36 view )
Expert
19-11-2016 23:18 (GMT)
( my english is poor , our country don't use english. so i learnt it as a second language) but i understood entire situation. this is the reality novel that made me fall into ..
Expert
19-11-2016 23:07 (GMT)
the tent was discovered 25 days after they had been missed . but little amount of snow over the tent in 25days.
Expert
19-11-2016 22:55 (GMT)
there are many hypothesis.. most of them are useless. i check every possibility out. clearly most of them are useless. we cannot know what is real .. but we can know what don't fit in .. Avalanche - the possibility is 0%
can be translated online. Go to google translate and copy and paste the link in the left hand side and then click on the right hand side.
Lots of discussion there (58 pages!). Imo the avalanche theory can be discounted because it doesn't explain why they clearly avoided returning to the tent to get boots and clothing even after two had died.
Expert
16-11-2016 20:39 (GMT)
something interesting is that diatlov pass is likely same to now since 1968
Expert
16-11-2016 20:30 (GMT)
to montana. the site linked by you looks very good. many replys and many photos by Russians. But I have no idea on Russia languages.. I just can use a little English as a 2th language. But photos and videos make me interesting . I am checking those out.
montana1903
14-11-2016 14:03 (GMT)
Just realised a person who looks like Mansi among the group ! It even gets more interesting..
I expect to see an increased frequency of these reports now that many people have a video camera enabled smartphone. Looking forward to the day one explodes on camera...
Coral Hull - your post is an interesting piece of synchronicity for me. I've just returned from Ireland where i purchased a book - "Field Guide to Irish Fairies". This tells me that some fairies are fallen angels. It also describes the Sheerie a nocturnal fairy that lures travellers to their deaths because they follow it's light. This led me to google Will-o-the-wisp and find links were people (in previous centuries) have captured the lights and the material producing them describing it as luminescent frogspawn that quickly degrades to a whitish, grayish foam. Note the report on YD....
Nigel Evans
01-11-2016 23:59 (GMT)
Expert - and you need to read my posts properly.
Coral Hull
01-11-2016 01:11 (GMT)
Fallen angels [orb form, pagan gods, fake UFOs] murdered the hikers at Dyatlov Pass, on 2nd February, 1959. I believe that a manifesting demonic entity, [known as a yeti, menk, bigfoot or skinwalker], was also involved in the murders and assisted by the fallen angels. I haven't seen/ or read anything that comes close to explaining/ describing all the injuries and positioning of the bodies after death.
Nigel Evans
31-10-2016 20:34 (GMT)
Remind me what are we agreeing to disagree about?
Robs
31-10-2016 19:12 (GMT)
Ok we will have to agree to disagree
Nigel Evans
31-10-2016 18:55 (GMT)
Robs > Just for you , four people died here :-
The Great Thunderstorm of Widecombe-in-the-Moor Another early description was reported during the Great Thunderstorm at a church in Widecombe-in-the-Moor, Devon, in England, on 21 October 1638. Four people died and approximately 60 were injured when, during a severe storm, an 8-foot (2.4 m) ball of fire was described as striking and entering the church, having nearly destroyed it. Large stones from the church walls were hurled into the ground and through large wooden beams. The ball of fire allegedly smashed the pews and many windows, and filled the church with a foul sulfurous odour and dark, thick smoke.
Nigel Evans
31-10-2016 18:53 (GMT)
Robs - you've got to be kidding, the Warren Hastings event killed two men?
Also the sentence - " By this explosion the main top-mast was shattered into pieces and the main mast went down to the keel.". Is talking about a section of the mast being shattered that could be 70 feet long and 21 inches in diameter. That's a significant explosion imo, i wouldn't want to be in a ravine with that going off over my head...
Robs
31-10-2016 18:45 (GMT)
So there is no record of multiple deaths via BL
Nigel Evans
31-10-2016 17:22 (GMT)
Robs - the three cases below would seem to give you :- 1. strong explosion capable of shattering rib cages "like a shockwave from a bomb". 2. burns. 3. burnt treetops.
The Catherine and Mary
In December 1726 a number of British newspapers printed an extract of a letter from John Howell of the sloop Catherine and Mary:
As we were coming thro’ the Gulf of Florida on 29th of August, a large ball of fire fell from the Element and split our mast in Ten Thousand Pieces, if it were possible; split our Main Beam, also Three Planks of the Side, Under Water, and Three of the Deck; killed one man, another had his Hand carried of [sic], and had it not been for the violent rains, our Sails would have been of a Blast of Fire.[10][11]
The Montague
One particularly large example was reported "on the authority of Dr. Gregory" in 1749:
Admiral Chambers on board the Montague, 4 November 1749, was taking an observation just before noon...he observed a large ball of blue fire about three miles distant from them. They immediately lowered their topsails, but it came up so fast upon them, that, before they could raise the main tack, they observed the ball rise almost perpendicularly, and not above forty or fifty yards from the main chains when it went off with an explosion, as great as if a hundred cannons had been discharged at the same time, leaving behind it a strong sulphurous smell. By this explosion the main top-mast was shattered into pieces and the main mast went down to the keel.
Five men were knocked down and one of them very bruised. Just before the explosion, the ball seemed to be the size of a large mill-stone.[2] HMS Warren Hastings
An English journal reported that during an 1809 storm, three "balls of fire" appeared and "attacked" the British ship HMS Warren Hastings. The crew watched one ball descend, killing a man on deck and setting the main mast on fire. A crewman went out to retrieve the fallen body and was struck by a second ball, which knocked him back and left him with mild burns. A third man was killed by contact with the third ball. Crew members reported a persistent, sickening sulfur smell afterward.[13][14]
Robs
31-10-2016 17:14 (GMT)
Hello Nigel, without reading word for word it seems no one has been killed and if they have none have got similar injuries to the DPI persons? Maybe you can clarify?
Nigel Evans
31-10-2016 13:31 (GMT)
Robs - pasting my link from the 4th post on this page :-
N.B. most ufo sightings are probably ball lightning.
Robs
31-10-2016 12:11 (GMT)
How many people had BL actually killed leaving these exact injuries ? I suspect none but I'm not an expert?
Nigel Evans
31-10-2016 11:13 (GMT)
Expert - there are 10,000 theories for the DPI none of which can be disproved, aliens, forest fairies, mirror universes, etc etc. Imo it's pointless to speculate like this. I'm only interested in sticking to the facts. One of the most important facts is that (as said before) they urgently left the tent but then lit a fire a little time afterwards. This narrows down the possibilities considerably to either natural but non intelligent force, or prisoners and subsequently murdered. The "murdered prisoner" theory doesn't really fit with the facts whilst the natural force theory fits quite well with what is known about ball lightning, the mansi beliefs in "golden orbs" and eye witness accounts of lights very near to the date of the incident. That's why Ivanov an experienced police investigator favoured it. N.B. bl is famous for passing through walls, airplane fuselages without leaving any mark. So the bl theory for the dpi could include a fireball entering the tent.
Nigel Evans
30-10-2016 10:51 (GMT)
Expert - My understanding is that Ivanov stressed that he didn't mean UFOs = alien ships, but UFOs = fireballs. My wikipedia link below describes ball lightning behaviour that explains the dpi facts - fatal contact, explosions. Just shows that you should never believe anything you read in newspapers. Imo there's no need to link ball lightning with ufo = aliens, bl is almost certainly a natural phenomenon that our science is yet to explain.
Expert
29-10-2016 17:33 (GMT)
all possibility were limited in my thought. The attack of Military or Extraterrestrial
Expert
29-10-2016 17:17 (GMT)
Something was coming towards tent exit. Or .. .. They were listening to threaten sound(like gun shooting sound) They were listening to threatening sound (like gun shooting sound )
They thought their urgent weapon ( knife , ass ) were useless to something. They choose ''just run ''
Something would stay near tent, which would made them not come back
The distance between tent and them is over 1.5 km. But it seems that they could watch something because something stayed in bright light.
Expert
29-10-2016 16:42 (GMT)
to _CE399_ i don't think something was Yuri Yudin . because investigators already would suspect and investigate him on what he then did or where he then stayed. And if he was killer, he would steel clues like diary, camera.
Frank Black
25-10-2016 19:27 (GMT)
Best web site I've seen so far with very comprehensive injury information. I don't believe in a Yeti, UFO or any of that paranormal crap. There is only one kind of animal that can inflict that kind of damage to those young people- MAN. Military security, regular Army whatever but I believe it was other humans. I know that it might take some of the "lunatic fringe" mystery out of it but really a Yeti, be serious. Look at the autopsy data, some of those kids had the crap beaten out of them. You have to look at this logically plus 9 intelligent educated young people lost there lives possibly because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Cat
25-10-2016 18:29 (GMT)
I still do not buy the avalanche theory. I'm no expert and certainly I am very new to the Dyatlov Incident but if there was an avalanche why on earth would someone stop running and walk and it seems an orderly walk at that! As for having a camera cocked, yes that is one of the first things you are taught to not waste film but eventually you do for quick shooting also you can load film carefully to get an extra few frames so really there is nothing unusual about that fact.
Nigel Evans
25-10-2016 17:56 (GMT)
My thoughts todate :-
1. Their boots were stacked in the front corner inside the tent but something made them flee into -25C so quickly (by slitting the tent open in the diagonally opposite corner) that they didn't (couldn't?) pick them up.
2. But this something didn't curtail lighting a fire 1500 meters away. Imo this considerably narrows the possible causes to :- 2a. prisoners of persons that didn't leave any detectable footprints. 2b. a perceived danger but not one with intelligence (human or animal), that would detect the fire and come after them. N.B. the numerous slits in the tent together with a camera on a tripod and SZ's secret camera favours (2b) imo. They were observing something.
3. The victims of weapon testing testing theory is counter to the facts. The soviet authorities investigated the case very thoroughly. Ivanov's police team was complemented by a KGB team, alpine experts and helicopters. Some of the dpi group had worked in top secret establishments and SZ was almost certainly a KGB "minder", so defection was a worry for the state, but all that effort is hardly necessary if the state already knew the cause. It is possible that the expense was to ensure that all the bodies were accounted for (no defection) but the ravine four took three months to discover which makes the case that the authorities could have just waited for the spring thaw if they already knew the cause. I find it easy to say that it was not weapons testing.
4. If so it was either a "natural force" or murder. The injuries of the ravine 4 are very difficult to explain as murder. LD's rib cage on the RHS has two fracture lines under the armpit but none in the lower half. The pathologist's opinion seems reasonable that this profile is of strong and localised kinetic energy such as a car accident or the shockwave from a bomb. SZ's injuries are very similar in this regard, his rib cage on the RHS breaking along two seperate lines, imo this fits better with a single event (explosion) than two seperate murder events. As said below the lack of bruising can be explained by the cold and LD's tongue and stomach blood can be explained by her biting her tongue badly, swallowing some blood as she died with the wound attracting predation (e.g. water snails). However the completeness of the tongue removal including supporting muscle echoes one of the injuries found in cattle mutilations - "empty mouth cavity". A pity the pathologist didn't go into more detail here.
5. Although the pathologist recorded most of the other deaths as hypothermia this is contrary to modern opinion (full bladder) and only ID displays the classic symptoms. YD and YK could have died from afterflow but that still leaves RS and ZK as "warm when they stopped moving", RS had a skull fracture but ZK is the hardest to explain.
6. YK had a massive burn on his lower left leg and foot (30cm x 10cm). This could be due to several reasons, loss of conciousness when too close to the fire, torture but also electrocution.
7. It was observed by the rescue party that tree tops were burnt.
8. The rescue party observed "lights" and reliable eye witnesses recorded lights a week after the fatalities are presumed to have taken place. One of these reliable witnesses talked of two explosions.
9 Radiation was found on some of the clothing, this could be from investigating mining activity on the journey or from the fatal event. However a water test suggested that the initial exposure could have been quite high and there are observations of the clothing exhibiting a purple glow. The helicopter pilots only flew the ravine four after being threatened by a superior officer at gun point (they wanted to wait for lead coffins).
10. The local native people had no doubts as to the cause - goldern orbs.
11. Ivanov wanted his report to state the cause of death was due to "fireballs" but he was overruled and forced to state a more general conclusion - "unknown and compelling force". Crucially in order to support this change in direction material was removed from the report. This can only be because it supported the fireball theory, n.b. there are no entries in the diary after leaving the base camp....
12. There are numerous photos taken from the cameras that seem to show nothing unless highly magnified and then a ball of light can be seen. Some of the observations of lights talk of concentric rings with a point source (star) in the centre. I don't know what 1959 photographic film was capable of but maybe the human eye can detect light wave lengths that are not detected by the film?..
Nigel Evans
24-10-2016 12:58 (GMT)
Expert - and then they lit a fire?
Robs
22-10-2016 09:51 (GMT)
If the autopsy is to be believed and there are no external injuries then then only explanation is crushing like from an avalanche. I am not skilled in this area but that would be my explanation. BUT and this is a bit BUT I don't believe the evidence reported because none of it makes sense. No external injuries even though multiple ribs broken Walking in single file from tent even though seemed to exit in absolute panic with no clothes Multiple injuries such as crushed skulls The ravine 4 seemed to be there for a while even setting up a temporary camp. The only thing that makes sense is that they were either high jacked at least to start with
Nigel Evans
20-10-2016 17:48 (GMT)
CE399 re your comment that their injuries are not consistent with ball lightning.
I must disagree, bl is documented as being explosive and the burns could be via electrical discharge also well documented. BL is in my opinion the best explanation of the established facts.
Nigel Evans
20-10-2016 15:22 (GMT)
CE39 when the clothes were removed from the bodies and hung up there were observations of a "purple glow". I'd agree that the water test doesn't prove anything. N.B. when the ravine four were to be moved by helicopter the pilots initially refused to take them until lead coffins were provided. Could be that they knew something that never made the report?
kkz
20-10-2016 15:09 (GMT)
Well I don't think Yuri Yudin has to do anything with the deaths. I mean come on. If he was was the assasin, he must have secretly follow the hikers for days, carrying his own tent and stuff. Or he was with others? Again: a group must have follow then the hikers for days - and there's no evidence of a camp anywhere near. Also if they we're following the group in a great distance, so they couldn't notice them, they wouldn't end up, where the group had ended, because that place wasn't on the original route. (Yuri Yudin was surprised where they have found the bodies.) Also it's highly unlikely that a killer, or a killer group travels for days in the snowy mountains just to kill a group then travel back for days. (Yeah, you can say, they killed them there, because it's so far out, that people won't find the bodies. But they did. And the killer must have know they will eventually.) If Yudin was the killer, he wouldn't leave the group at all - he just would went with them, and kill them in their sleep or something. Also Svetlana Oss's book mentions that Yudin was collecting minerals this time with other students, and there are student diaries to prove this. Also Yuri Yudin being the killer explains nothing about the strange circumstances, that made Dyatlov pass incident a mistery. (Strange lights, radioactivity, missing tongue, etc.) Yuri Yudin's alibi, motives and whereabouts been fully examined? Not at all. Is there any evidence against him? Nope.
_CE399_
20-10-2016 13:22 (GMT)
Nigel Evans, regarding fireballs and prisoners:
I lived and worked in Laplandia which extends over the northernmost quarter of Norway, Sweden and Finland and an equivalent area of Russia. And that is why I am interested in the Dyatlov incident.
Because one of the most esoteric theories is that one or more of the group was planning to defect to Norway. I think that theory is silly nonsense but it turned my head one day and caused me to take an interest in the Dyatlov event.
Ball lightning, fireballs, starbursts, skylights, "night suns", daylight bright & lingering meteorite storms, highly localized aurora borealis events, and other light and sound presentations happen all the time in the valleys and ravines of the sub-polar arctic regions.
Members of the Dyatlov party would have been very familiar with the northern lights and various types of light and sound events. They would have found the fireballs interesting and noteworthy that were supposed to have occurred on the night of their demise. But no "fireball" would have sent them into a panic.
Their injuries are not consistent with any kind of ball lighting or fireball.
Escaped prisoners would not have ventured into that river valley. And if they did, why didn't they take any possessions or supplies that would have been crucial to their own survival.
No, the prisoner theory doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
But a theory that the Mansi did it or something to cause it is viable.
Like the Mansi, the indigenous Laplanders have a scary sounding name for every unsafe pass or accident prone traverse like "valley of doom", "Mountain of no return" and yes, a lot of "Dead Mountains" or more accurately "Mountain where stupid people die who don't take good advice".
Laplanders are peculiar people in the sense that they do not come across as your enemy but they are certainly not your friend either.
_CE399_
20-10-2016 11:54 (GMT)
Regarding radiation sickness or directed energy weapons being involved in any way with the Dyatlov group:
Although both are real, neither has any basis for being included in the contributing factors of the causes for the group abandoning their shelter and supplies or the injuries they sustained.
Radiation is abundant in nature, especially in the Urals region where the Dyatlov incident occurred. The group had visited abandoned campsites and villages where geological assays had been conducted. In 1959 in the Soviet Union, geological assays consisted of obtaining surface and core samples at various depths and compiling a statistical report of the likelihood of the amount of each of the metals and minerals found in the area being explored. In the 1940s and '50s uranium and other naturally occurring radioactive elements were of utmost interest.
The group photographed themselves handling discarded core samples and hanging around the buildings and structures of the abandoned geological research facilities.
The amount of radiation detected on some of the clothing was consistent with what would be expected of people who were essentially kicking around in the dirt in that area.
Radiation testing was unofficial, its accuracy unknown and it was an extremely shallow sample from only a fraction of the clothing and possessions. Most of the clothing, bodies and possessions of the group were never tested.
Just about every book, movie, documentary, video and blog fallaciously states "high levels of radiation were found on the clothing [and/or] bodies". This unfounded assertion is used to launch innumerable theories radiation caused group panic and all of the injuries--especially oozing gray foam and discolored skin.
But there is no evidence the group was exposed to any radiation in any significant degree and even if they were, it is unlikely they would have fallen ill when they the did, and in fact did not just get ill but died.
Radiation was not a significant factor in the event.
Directed Energy Weapons have existed on a large scale since at least Sept 11. 2001 when DEWs of some sort destroyed the World Trade Center buildings (all seven of them, not just he towers.)
In 1959, the only directed energy weapon of any military value was microwave transmitters.
Nigel Evans
20-10-2016 10:43 (GMT)
CE399 hi, I think there are only two theories that are credible, Ivanov's fireballs or prisoners. I'm with Ivanov and the shockwave from a bomb theory. Interesting that you've been in the artic circle. What I've read about hypothermia is that as the body constricts blood flow to the limbs etc the reduced volume results in increased pressure which the body control's by offloading fluid into the bladder via the kidneys. Concurrent to this the victims mental faculties are highly diminished (no urination). So a full bladder =1000ml is almost guaranteed in hypo deaths. Only ID displayed this.
_CE399_
20-10-2016 10:07 (GMT)
To illustrate the gross inaccuracies of the science that has been the basis of the most popular conclusions regarding the Dyatlov incident: <<== Patient G., thirty-three years old, was admitted to the hospital on 23 January 1964. A doctor picked him up off the street, hesitating as he debated whether to take him to a morgue or a hospital, and ‘just in case’ decided to bring him to a clinic. The limbs [of the body] were bent at the joints and could not be straightened out – the body was ‘stiff’. The rectal temperature was below 0C. Heartbeat, breathing and reflexes were completely absent. Direct cardiac massage and intra transfusion were started. After twenty-five minutes, there was ventricular fibrillation of the heart. After forty minutes, breathing appeared. After fifty minutes, weak contractions of the heart began. After three hours and twenty-five minutes, the patient regained consciousness and started to talk. He remembered that having finished work, he drank 750 grams of vodka and went home. The air temperature was -29C. He had been lying on the street for seven hours. There was no evidence of damage to the central nervous system (CNS), and one year later the patient’s condition remained good.
Excerpt from "Death by Hypothermia" (1977) by V.P. Desyatov as quoted in Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (Kindle Locations 1565-1568). . Kindle Edition. ==>>
Conclusions based on the coroner's reports of the presentations on the skin and other external components of the Dyatlov victims bodies along with all other declarations of the coroner's reports regarding causes of death can be summarily disregarded.
The above book "Don't Go There: Post Mortem" by Svetlana Oss provides conclusive evidence and argumentative reasoning for essentially throwing out every officially documented conclusion of the medical examinations. Only the raw data and observations--insofar as they can be determined to be sufficiently objective--can be used to form any hypothesis that have a chance of surviving a test against the significant amount of verifiable evidence, most of which is no longer extant.
_CE399_
19-10-2016 20:09 (GMT)
Comment to all previous posts:
1. Zina Kolmogorova's postion at death is not mysterious at all. Zina was romantically involved with both of the men whose bodies were closest to her body. The group had split up at some point with some of them forming an expedition to try to get back to the tent. The "tent" subgroup was Zina, Dyatlov and Slobodin. Zina was the best clothed, strong and athletic but had been struck in the side and back with something resembling a baton (or butt of a rifle). She made it the furthest of any in the "tent" expedition but of course, succumbed to hypothermia. The "tent" expedition was ill-fated because no one was properly clothed and all had sustained injuries and expended too much energy most likely fighting off their attacker(s).
2. The attacker(s) killed Thibeaux-Brignolle most likely because he tried to be heroic in trying to defend the girl in the group who was closest to him in age. His injuries are consistent with an impulsive young man who is killed by a much more experienced fighter wielding a long, hard object like a baton, rod or rifle. Zina's injuries are also consistent with such a weapon and more closely match what a male assailant who was an experienced fighter would do to woman who tried to attack him.
3. Regarding the so-called "lack of external injuries". The medical examiners were mediocre. All of the victims were experiencing various stages of advancing hypothermia when they sustained injuries. Bruising is not seen because blood flow is retracted from the skin of a hypothermic person. The body concentrates blood into the vital organs when it becomes hypothermic. I have personally experienced this happening very rapidly and very acutely. A cut on hypothermic skin that is shockingly deep may not bleed at all. In a particular episode of M*A*S*H a patient is said to have survived because he was "frozen" and would have bleed to death in warmer weather. The television series was known for its on-set medical advisors who took real accounts of combat from the Korean War and adapted them accurately for the show. The only thing that is not entirely accurate about the episode is that the soldier was not "frozen" because freezing kills tissue and bursts vessels. The soldier was hypothermic and his blood flow was restricted so much to the area of the wound that it did not bleed. The noticeable lack of "external injuries" is due to hypothermia. Remember, people are quite conscious and alive when their bodies begin to react to hypothermia.
4. I have lived a number of years above the Arctic Circle. Lights, fireballs, and other strange luminescent events are common. People in the lower latitudes only know about "the Northern Lights" but there is a whole range of strange and spectacular things that happen at the higher latitudes. And it's not all lights either. Sound events often occur too, with and without lights. I have heard and seen things that I would think were alien ships whizzing by or crashing if I wasn't an engineer with a physics education. The amount of energy deflected and channeled by the earth's magnetic field is enormous and causes all sorts of light and sound shows at the higher latitudes.
Everyone wants to treat the fireball events seen around the time of the Dyatlov tragedy as special. Sorry, that sort of thing is not special at all. Go spend a couple winters up there and you'll see. I have. And I am not impressed at all by the stories. They are as common as hurricanes in Florida. Sure, some are bigger than others and some seasons have few and others a lot. But what was seen was not unique.
If you take any story in isolation, it can be made out to be a spectacular or strange occurrence.
How many accounts of the Dyatlov incident mention that the lights in the sky seen at that time were also seen before and after that day for many days and from year-to-year? And none of the witness accounts of the "halos" are certain to have occurred exactly on the day when the group perished which is another issue.
_CE399_
19-10-2016 19:21 (GMT)
Comment to Robs: Group infighting does not explain the hurried exit from the tent unless someone pulled a gun on the rest of the group. Or say, grabbed Lyuda and threatened to slit her throat if the rest of the group didn't do as he said.
Zolotaryov had the most unstable personal life going into the trip. He was a serial job-hopper. That is often a sign of an acute personality or psychological disorder that suddenly erupts. He was a loner and from a culture that almost required marriage yet remained unmarried at an age that was considered too old.
Zolotaryov had strange tattoos which are not that unusual for hardcore Soviet military men except that they were too cryptic in way that was not normal.
Zolotaryov was a Cossack from a group that was 97% wiped out by Stalin's genocide. He survived by joining the Soviet army and proving himself loyal to them. To abandon your familial heritage and join the enemy has to mean something is askew or will go askew with you psychologically at some point. And Zolotaryov had a very askew career and personal life.
Zolotaryov was an unvetted outsider with a very suspicious past that included World War II service where Soviet soldiers committed genocide, murder, torture and rape on a scale that certainly touched his experience if not fully involved him.
I would agree that infighting could have been what happened if Zolotaryov had not suffered the same violent death as Lyuda.
Zolotaryov was well clothed when he died of internal trauma. The rather mediocre coroners said there were no "external signs of injury" i.e. bruising to match the cracked ribs. This has been mistakenly attributed as evidence that the "overwhelming force" was some mysterious electromagnetic beam weapon.
Every other member of the group had a lengthy history with each other that rules out any of them as being involved in a fatal infighting incident.
Only Zolotaryov could have been the cause of an infighting conflict that drove them to their deaths. His background paints a very troubled person. But nothing that indicates he was a sociopath.
The biggest problem with trying to pin it on Zolotaryov is that he died with the other victims in a way that could not have been self-inflicted. And there just isn't another person who can be fingered with any reasonable degree of evidence. The group was also nearer the beginning of the trip than the end. Nerves get frayed during an expedition of several days but the group had not been traveling in the wilderness as a group, out of contact with the rest of the world, for more than four days. And they had not encountered any significant difficulties that would accelerate interpersonal tensions.
Someone from the outside attacked the group and did so for reasons that were personal and excluded most of the group.
Because Lyuda was so viciously attacked and two other men with her were killed violently, the most logical scenario is that the attacker(s) drove the group suddenly out of the tent.
At some point, some of them fought back and escaped. Some of them were seriously injured in the process and all were too weak and vulnerable to survive which would explain why the attacker(s) did not pursue them.
A person improperly clothed in a storm at -25 Celsius isn't going to survive the night. The escapees tried to get a fire going and climbed a tree to see where they were --strong evidence that they were driven from the tent by an attacker and not a fireball. If they had had a choice of where to flee, they would have headed toward the larger river, main path and their storage cache by the abandoned campsite.
Some of the escapees tried to get back to the tent and some stayed with the fire. Those who stayed with the fire were burned because that is what happens when the fire is too small and the weather too cold.
The clothing was not taken off of dead bodies, it was ordered to be given to the subgroup that the attacker was most interested in dealing with. People just assume the clothing of some of the victims was removed by their comrades after they died. In a hostage scenario the possibilities include clothing being ordered to be removed.
Because Zolotaryov was wearing Lyuda's hat and because his injuries would have left him alive for minutes or hours, it is logical to imagine that the assailant injured Zolotaryov first. Lyuda then, seeing him injured took compassion on him and gave him her hat. This likely took place in "the den" where Lyuda would have been out of the wind and could have survived without a hat.
The assailant then attacked Lyuda, perhaps it was because she showed compassion for Zolotaryov. Her injuries are consistent with someone acting out of anger and not as part of a fistfight.
The assailant then left the group after seeing that all of them were dead.
Doing such a thing was crazy stupid illogical and irrational but most crimes of passion are.
_CE399_
19-10-2016 18:17 (GMT)
Q14. What is the most likely scenario that explains how the group died? A14. Yuri Yudin either attacked the group or was an accomplice of the attacker(s). He left prematurely and his alibi is unverified. Yuri Yudin is seen in photos to be most affectionate with Ludya who was the target of the greatest violence. He therefore had romantic motive.
An attacker or attackers stalked the group from the moment they left the last town. The best opportunity for attacking the group was just before they began their ascent of the mountain. They would be furthest form civilization but not yet away from cover that allowed the stalker(s) to remain hidden.
The attacker(s) approached the tent and made demands that caused all or some of the members inside the tent to cut the tent in an attempt to flee from the threat at the opening. The lack of space and urgency of the situation did not allow anyone to gather up any supplies or clothing.
The assailant(s) forced the team to march down the hill toward the cover of the trees. The choice of going toward the small river and off the main path by the big river indicates the assailant(s) wanted privacy.
The objective was to confront one or more members of the team.
Yuri Yudin or someone he was assisting had a personal, likely romantic matter to resolve with Lyuda. She was the last to die and it was a viscous beating that killed her.
The person who received the next most violent beating was Zolotaryov. He was the likely usurper who received punishment for either being romantically or sexually involved with Lyuda. The autopsy report on Lyuda does not mention sexual activity as it does on Kolmogorova.
The mystery of why Zolotaryov joined the group is explained if he had a romantic interest in Lyuda.
This would also explain the suspicious coincidence of Yuri Yudin's departure from the group upon the arrival of Zolotaryov into the group.
And lastly, Yuri Yudin is the sole source of the one detail that delayed rescue operations claiming that Dyatlov told him they would be a few days later than expected.
Yuri Yudin's motives, opportunities and alibi were never fully investigated and he remains the No.1 suspect.
Robs
19-10-2016 17:38 (GMT)
Comment to CE I agree that this is more likely than any other ideas. They needed to leave he tent instantly I don't believe Ball lightening would do this. The tent had slits at eye level so they were looking out the tent for some reason. They could have been marched out fought and the group had a chance to run and split up. I still think that it could have been in fighting between the group. I just don't see the BL theory at all.
_CE399_
19-10-2016 16:40 (GMT)
Q9. What scenario explains some of the members suffering physical trauma inflicted by an assailant yet the injured and uninjured remain together after the conflict? A9. An assailant from outside the group of injured and uninjured is the only explanation. If you are violently attacked or witness someone near you being violently attacked, you flee from the attacker. The uninjured and injured members of the Dyatlov group remain together, therefore the attacker was not among them. Q10. Could the attacks have been a subgroup since there are three location groupings where the bodies were found? A10. No. The uninjured appeared to have died before the injured. If a subgroup and attacked another subgroup, it would be the attackers who survived longest, not the victims. Q11. Were any of the group involved romantically? A11. Yes, very much so. Kolmogorova was involved with at least two of the men prior to the trip. Q12. Was Lyuda Dubinina involved with any of the men? A12. Unknown. Lyuda was the youngest and prettiest of the two. She was only 20 years old and was very extroverted, perhaps even flirtatious. Q13. What types of scenarios explain a person inflicting an attractive young woman like Lyuda with such violent and severe chest injuries? A13. Anger and sociopathic behavior. Lyuda sustained an amount of violence that cannot be explained as happening from a fight. The person or persons who fractured her ribs did the same to Zolotaryov who was found near her.
_CE399_
19-10-2016 15:23 (GMT)
Q1. Why cut tent to leave it? A1. Because the usual opening was blocked and leaving was deemed mortality urgent. Q2. What urgency could cause such action? A2. Most logical cause would be an armed and dangerous person blocking normal exit. Q3. Why would team march down the slope in formation and away from where they had just left their cache of supplies for the return? A3. Because someone pointing a gun at them forced them to walk away. Q4. Who would force them away from their shelter but not raid the shelter? A4. Someone whose interest was not in the possessions of the people but the people themselves. Q5. Who would have had an interest in the people? A5. The tenth member who left the group on the pretext of illness. A6. The most logical of all suspects is Yuri Yudin, the tenth hiker who left the group. Q7. Is the claim that no one entered the camp supported by the evidence? A7. No. It is spurious reasoning at best. Although no other footprints were found, the absence of footprints proves nothing but an absence of footprints. Snow shoes would leave no trace that could be seen three weeks later. Yuri Yudin could have returned, perhaps with accomplices, wearing snow shoes and left no evidence of their presence. Q8. Has Yuri Yudin's alibi, motives and whereabouts been fully examined? A8. Not at all.
HK
17-10-2016 20:49 (GMT)
Who is the Author?
Nigel Evans
13-10-2016 11:41 (GMT)
Well this site has a photo of LD's chest (may she rip), most of her ribs were found to be snapped with one penetrating the heart. No bruises can be seen or were recorded except one on her thigh.
Eye witness accounts of lights and explosions near to the assumed date of the event.
Ergo the ravine four died from an explosion....
The only explanations i can think of for the close grouping of the "returning three" is acute radiation sickness or deep snow. An ARS theory requires the symptoms to be missed by the pathologist. Skiing off piste i've fallen into loose snow that was chest height in depth and no one could walk/crawl through that quickly. But two of them didn't die of hypothermia? RS was warm when hestopped moving (could be the skull fracture) but ZK is the most difficult one to explain, she was relatively well dressed?
Robs
12-10-2016 08:03 (GMT)
I agree the 3 were coming from somewhere else maybe the ravine? How accurate were autopsies back in 1959? What I mean is some of the bodies was not found for months, how can they say that they had no visual evidence of impact injuries ?
Nigel Evans
11-10-2016 14:17 (GMT)
Robs> for me the close grouping of these three is one of the big questions. They are clearly in transit (no camp or den) presumably returning to the tent but they all stop walking/crawling within about 200 meters of each other. Weird. Given that the terrain would take them off course (seeking the easiest path) i don't think their actual position relative to the tent or the cedar is very relevant. We can't know. Also somne maps show them taking the shortest route with others having them elaewhere?
But we do know that they all perished so close to each other and that cannot be easily explained imo. Also only ID showed clear signs of hypothermia.
Robs
11-10-2016 10:07 (GMT)
Why do we think that they never returned to the tent ? A few options. Couldn't find it (why not just retrace steps) Something was stopping them They were terrified
Also the 3 that were found trying to return seemed to be off course and not setting off from the tree. This means they were elsewhere when heading for the tent. Any ideas?
Nigel Evans
05-10-2016 17:53 (GMT)
>RPGStylee, the wind conditions are a bit of a mystery, from memory the locals reported extremely high winds but all the relevant weather stations reported nothing unusual. The last photo of them making camp suggest whiteout conditions, i.e. possibly high winds.
Nigel Evans
05-10-2016 17:48 (GMT)
>Robs, it maybe you have little experience of alpline conditions, like skiing?
What happens on snowy hills/mountains is that depending on the attitude of the ground to the sun, there is variable freeze/thaw were the sun melts the snow during the day and then it refreezes at night. These areas can be be like glass and difficult even for correct footwear. Skiers sometimes describe them as "boilerplate". Further to this, these areas can then be hidden by light snowfall. So nobody runs down snowy mountains unless they've got spiked footwear and not in the dark of night. Indeed it maybe that the group deliberately went northeast towards the cedar rather than southeast to the base camp because the north face is always easier wrt to freeze/thaw. ID's last diary entry mentioned how icy the conditions could be away from the river. These conditions might be the cause of most of the cuts, bruising and even head fractures as they repeatedly fell over.
I've been googling around hypothermia today and come across "after flow". What happens with hypothermia is that the body restricts blood flow to the limbs in order to protect the core temperature. When a hypothermic patient is warmed up there is a risk that the body relaxes this restriction too quickly and the (relatively) cold blood in the limbs rushes into the core and the patient dies of the shock. Apparently the correct approach is to increase the temp of the trunk without warming the limbs at all, via drinks and hot stones, clothing etc. So given that YD and YK had charred digits and burns there as a possible explanation for their early death, i.e. they sat too close to the fire and warmed up their limbs instead of their core.
RPGStylee
05-10-2016 16:53 (GMT)
It may be that they wanted to run but couldn't because of high winds and poor visibility. What was the weather like on the night?
Robs
05-10-2016 16:25 (GMT)
Nigel, I know what the report says but im wondering your opinion. Further down the slope the report says they seemed to be walking. This doesn't make any sense what so ever. They leave the tent in a panic with no clothes (or very little) and then walk to the trees. If they are walking (obviously not panicked) why not turn around and walk back to the tent? I guess he question I'm asking why not walk back to the tent what was stopping them? Are we assuming BL stayed above the tent stopping them? Then moved down and killed the remaining four?
Nigel Evans
05-10-2016 12:30 (GMT)
>Robs. Nope, as said before, the only evidence of their footprints is further down the slope and they seem to be walking.
Robs
05-10-2016 10:47 (GMT)
So you agree that they ran from the tent and didn't walk to the tree line? So if you agree then you must question the findings that they walked in single file because it isn't true.
Nigel Evans
05-10-2016 10:32 (GMT)
Robs> i'd agree that leaving the tent so urgently and unable to return but comfortable with lighting a fire 1500 meters away must rule out a lot of possible threats. Unless they were prisoners the threat cannot be human or animal imo. As an aside i've been rereading Svetlana Oss's book and it appears that medical science has moved on since 1959. Specifically she passed the pathology findings to an expert in hypothermia and his opinion is that many of the original findings are confusing the effects of post death freezing with cause of death and it's probable that only ID died of hypothermia.
Robs
05-10-2016 05:11 (GMT)
They lit the camp fire because they were dying threat or no treat they had no other option. They were too scared to return to the tent at that time for what ever reason. We have to agree that they left in panic and ran to the tree line. Or were forced out of the tent and walked there is no other explanation unless you can explain it. This is the most important part of the mystery.
Nigel Evans
04-10-2016 21:23 (GMT)
Robs> the photos of the footprints (under TENT) do seem to be of normal walking, not running. Bear in mind that there were no footprints immediately near the tent and those photographed are somewhat further on. So inconclusive imo. N.B they were sufficiently relaxed about the threat to light a campfire at the cedar...
Robs
04-10-2016 21:04 (GMT)
So that is exactly my point. The report said they walked to the tree line. I thought we all agreed that didn't happen and they must have ran. You don't cur your way out of the tent (obviously in a panic) leave with no or little clothing (obviously in a panic) in minus 20+ and then walk in single file to the tree line. So we either agree with the report and they walked or we don't agree in that they ran.
Nigel Evans
04-10-2016 19:25 (GMT)
>Robs and all BL doubters.
From Svetana Oss's book, a report from the Tagil Worker Feb 7th 1959. Yesterday at 6.55 am local time, to the south-east, at an angle of twenty degrees above the horizon, a bright globe appeared about moon sized. Around 7am, inside of this globe, there was some sort of explosion and a very bright core of this globe became visible, which started to glow more intensely, and around it appeared a cloud. Then the cloud dissolved in the whole eastern part of the sky. Soon after this a second explosion took place, and it resembled the crescent of a moon, gradually the cloud was glowing and in the centre of it remained the bright spot. - A. Kissel Deputy Head of Vysokogorny Colliery. The same event was reported by another group. There are other similar reports on the 15th and 31st of March.
Also i'm not aware of a finding that they ran from the tent, all i've seen is that they walked.
Robs
04-10-2016 17:50 (GMT)
These were scientific professionals not your average man off the street. Something happened in the or around the tent that made 9 people panic and evacuate the tent under extreme pressure. Knowing it was minus 20+ they left without clothing and equipment. We already agreed that they ran from the tent not walked so that already falsified the report saying they walked in single file. I see no evidence of BL or the phonomia of the low wave sounds that "send people mad". The BL to strike in 3 different locations and kill multiple persons is at best highly unlikely. We are missing something if they didn't read the tracks correctly as mentioned above then they could have missed other things in my opinion
Nigel Evans
04-10-2016 16:33 (GMT)
RPGStylee > yes, the stove was on the floor of the tent and they stored excess material in the hut as they were about to ascend the hills and only took what was needed. My errors.
However lighthearted i can't agree wrt the drug theory, they setup camp by the cedar, stripped the bodies of clothing and then created the den in the ravine. All sensible organised behaviour which would seem to rule out "crazy people".
Re metal - you're right that the BL theory requires multiple events 1500 meters apart. So hence a theory that the group attracted it somehow.
There seems to be an empirical connection between BL and ionised air (lightning strikes + more frequent reports at altitude). Maybe also spinning ionised air (foo fighters, dust storms).
The post wrt Hesdalen lights waa mine. I think the connection with latitude is interesting. We're sitting on the crust of a big ball of molten rock whose centre is a big ball of molten iron. This molten iron presumably has currents, coriolis force, convection etc. Perhaps this can create a local concentration of energy as yet unknown to science that manifests as lights, BL etc. Maybe explains cattle mutilations. Maybe the metal in mammalian bodies acts as a catalyst.... . Tunguska is also at the same latitude, but an explanation for that has to include some form of bolide but cannot be fully explained by just that. A geomotor theory would fit in with my thoughts above.
RPGStylee
04-10-2016 14:49 (GMT)
>Nigel Evans
I'm sure it was found on the floor of the tent, but it wasn't set up. I'm not sure about the metal content of the body, but it can't be enough to be the preferred path for a discharge of electrical energy considering all metals in the body make up less than 1% of the mass.
As for the drug theory, it makes about as much sense as anything at this point. I was just joking around haha.
A more serious theory I've been thinking of is that ball lightning and other 'lights' might be caused by cosmic or solar radiation interacting with the atmosphere and the magnetic field. A sudden and intense bombardment of cosmic ray particles could saturate the area with BL, and ultra high energy particles could have caused the 'explosion' that fatally injured the 4 in the ravine. Someone else in the comments has mentioned the Hessdalen lights, and that they are at essentially the same latitude as Dyatlov pass. They may have the same cause. AFAIK the lights only ever appear at night. They way the particles might interact could send them careening around the earth to the night side where they then filter down through the atmosphere.
Nigel Evans
03-10-2016 20:43 (GMT)
>RPGStylee
I think they left the stove at the base camp. N.B. the existence of the base camp suggests the trip up the hill was a diversion with a purpose. The luxury with BL is as science can't explain it, it can be stretched to fit the theory, so maybe there is enough metal content within nine bodies ~(blood = iron, liver = copper, etc etc) to attract over 1500 meters. Well if they ran after a trippy member why didn't they run back again when their feet got cold? It does look like they had to escape the tent region and then used the cedar as a lookout to observe the same area.
I don't think they were sent there, just decided to do it out of interest, perhaps sought permission and SZ was attached to the group to report to the KGB. His death triggered the high investment in the investigation imo.
RPGStylee
03-10-2016 19:44 (GMT)
Ahh yeah. I suppose tent damage is something they would be well prepared for. Problem is Ivanov specifically said fire balls were spotted in the area during the investigation, which is why I would think there would be some sort of burning or intense heat. I suppose it's possible that there were both 'cold' and 'hot' ball lightning occurring over(?) the area. I don't think it entered the tent though. I think it's more likely that if it did it would have discharged into the stove since it is more conductive and it was closer to the ground(it was on the floor).
Ball lightning can't be an explanation by itself in my opinion. It would be an extraordinary chain of events for them to be forced out of the tent by ball lightning, then for it to appear again 1.5 km away at the top of the cedar that two of the group members happened to have climbed, then appeared again in a ravine 75 m away. It also doesn't account for the radiation either. It could have been just pure bad luck, but I doubt the chances of such a scenario occurring. It must have been a multitude of events that lead to their deaths, but that would also be an extraordinary circumstance. Maybe they really were just that unlucky.
I'm not sure about them being sent there to study BL. I think the military would have kept better contact and/or conducted a search&rescue mission as soon as they failed to report back, and not wait 2 weeks for the families to complain. If I were in their position I would be sweating at the collar as soon as I found out top students have gone missing, one of which had worked in the nuclear program and another that seemed to do some shady work for the government.
The more I look into it the less progress I seem to be making. Maybe they all took drugs or something and went wild. Old Semen was like,
"hey you kids, this is the stuff that got me through the war, you want to try yes?"
They then went all crazy and one of them started tripping heavily, got spooked and just slashed his way out of the tent, then the rest ran after him or something.
Nigel Evans
03-10-2016 17:27 (GMT)
>RPGStylee. Ball lightning doesn't have to scorch. It is famous for passing through material without leaving any mark - e.g. windows, airplane fuselages. N.B. it's equally famous for damaging material including human tissue... it all depends. So i don't see a connection with the slits as >kmr says. Imo they were quite ok with cutting slits and then repairing them, they were using the tent as an observation station protected from the elements, keeping cameras free of snow including loading film. My theory is that they knew about the lights and intentionally went there to observe them as part of the trip and diary entries wrt this have been deleted.
Robs> my theory is that they exited so quickly because the BL came very close or even entered the tent (without leaving a trace). The first two to die - YD and YK had burns, charred digits and signs of a pulmonary edema. All of these injuries can be caused by electrocution.
So it's possible the BL entered the tent without leaving a mark, discharged into YD/YK and forced everyone out asap. Although these two could make their way down the mountain they died quickly afterwards weakened by this event, N.B although YD had frostbite but his urine level doesn't fit with hypothermia, he might have died from something else.
Robs
03-10-2016 16:36 (GMT)
I think if we ever found out why they exited the the tent then I'm sure the rest would fall into place. For me it is the key to everything. Although it say the tracks were walking towards the forest I don't believe that bit unless they were hijacked somehow. Why cut the tent to exit quickly take no shoes and then walk to the Forrest it doesn't make sense. Then either ran for cover which I believe or we're forced to. What do you guys think?
kmr
03-10-2016 15:20 (GMT)
>RPGStylee I remember that Zina Kolmogorova mentioned in her diary, that she sewed the tent at one point during the trip - so what I'm saying cuts, damages in the tent fabric wasn't too big deal for them I belive - I don't think they we're so afraid to damage their own tent, if they make a cut, they just sew it back together. If something's out there, that scares you and could even hurt you, so you don't wanna go out, till you know what it is, the best option for even experienced adventurers too to make a cut, look out, and later you can sew together that cut.
RPGStylee
03-10-2016 11:32 (GMT)
>Nigel Evans
I doubt they'd intentionally damage their only tent regardless of how old it was. I suppose it could be possible, if Ivanov's account of ball lightning or 'fire balls' is to be believed, that the group made the slits to avoid being scorched by the heat. However as far as we know there were no scorch marks on the tent and no signs of melting in the area around the tent. There are photographs of the camp site and the tent that don't show any signs of scorching or melting, but of course there is an entire side of the tent that has no known photographs taken of it. However the problem with that is the side of the tent with the slits in was photographed. This doesn't fit with the 'fire balls' he described because if the slits were made with the intention of observing a 'fire ball', there would be burn marks on the side of the tent with the slits. He also said that some of the trees were burnt too but there are no photographs of that. Of course, the information may have been removed from the final report for an unknown reason. I personally don't think it was a cover up of anything shady. I think the authorities were just as baffled as everyone else and hid the information to avoid embarrassment(At least with the nuclear disaster in 57 they would have been able to figure out a cause). They were too confused by whatever the events were to come up with a solid conclusion. This is obviously bad for the Soviet Union's image. The cause of death(hypothermia) was probably decided upon to give the families of the deceased some sort of closure, keeping them quiet.
The problem with this incident is that there is lots of information, but not enough key pieces of information to go on. Perhaps they all just went insane.
Nigel Evans
01-10-2016 12:53 (GMT)
>RPGStylee - good points, but Ivanov had to remove material from his original report in order to comply with orders to change the finding. So it's logical that the material supported his stated view - "it was ball lightning". This removed material was probably diary entries and photographs a view supported by there being a gap in the diary entries. Wrt slits, cutting your tent to observe something instead of standing outside is unusual but perhaps the tent was old, at end of life and they wanted to observe from inside for an extended period and keep camera lenses clear of snow etc.
Later in life Ivanov gave an interview where he expressed his feelings of guilt wrt the report and hiding information from the families of the deceased. This might have included the last thing they ever wrote....
RPGStylee
01-10-2016 00:36 (GMT)
This incident is an extremely intriguing mystery, and I appreciate the effort it took to create such an informative site on the subject.
A couple of things stick out to me that I think haven't been given much attention. The group made no entries in their diaries at all on their last day alive, only taking pictures with their cameras. Up until this point they at least made an entry about the weather everyday. Now travelling in the open under high wind would mean that they wouldn't be able to write as they went. They didn't write anything in the morning of the final day, and they didn't write anything after they got settled down in the tent for their final night either. Although, you could say that whatever it was that caused them to leave the tent happened while they were in the process of getting ready for bed. This is out of the ordinary when compared to the previous days. Something happened either in the night or the morning of the 1st that spooked them into silence. This event may also have influenced the decision of Dylatov to go up the slopes of dead mountain rather than make for the pass. Ball lightning has been mentioned by a few in this comment section. It seems a sufficiently odd phenomenon to warrant avoidance by the group, but not frightening enough to a group of well educated individuals to not mention anything at all about it. It's probable that the group would have at least taken pictures of such events. The images may have been on the damaged film in the unknown camera. Unfortunately we may never know.
The other thing that isn't too clear to me is the horizontal eye level slits made in the tent. The simplest answer is that they were made so that the pieces of tent on either side of the large vertical slits would collapse, allowing for a fast and easy exit. From what is unknown. Since I mentioned it previously, it could have been more ball lightning. The problem with that is, it doesn't fit with the slits being made at eye level with the intent of observing the ball lightning, or something else. These are experienced adventurers. If they had wanted to observe something outside of the tent, they would have at least put on a layer of clothes and used the entrance to take a look. I doubt that they would have intentionally created slits in their only tent because of an unexplained light source. I think this lends a little more credence to infra-sound or another startling noise causing them to leave in a hurry rather than anything visual.
Robs
27-09-2016 08:07 (GMT)
Again I think they ran to the tree line. Why walk and not take shoes? It all points to exiting the tent quickly and panicked.
Robs
27-09-2016 08:04 (GMT)
Again it doesn't make sense. Why cut the tent to exit quickly and then walk to the tree line? If they were terrified of the BL why walk to the tree line?
Nigel Evans
26-09-2016 20:16 (GMT)
No blood and the footsteps indicate walking down in an orderly manner. Deep snow would help explain how they missed their tracks made coming up.
Robs
26-09-2016 19:34 (GMT)
Do you know if any blood was found in or around the tent? I think you could be on the right lines about hostile. I don't think the snow blew away though
Nigel Evans
26-09-2016 18:51 (GMT)
Robs > well it seems that there is no way to prove the timeline regarding the "ravine four" and the "returning three". It's equally possible that the two groups were very hostile to each other and seperated in a different manner, they would have been very upset that they had taken the wrong route from the tent and that two of their party had perished and there are injuries consistent with brawling, there's no way to know. That the returning three all stopped crawling within such a short distance of each other is saying something imo. Unless the snow was deep and subsequently blown away that would explain it.
Robs
26-09-2016 18:08 (GMT)
That is an interesting thought that they all went to the ravine, definitely possible. But I just don't see them leaving the ravine with no clothes (or shoes) to walk back to the tent?
Nigel Evans
26-09-2016 17:19 (GMT)
Robs > well the 2 by the fire seem to have been the first to die and their bodies were stripped of clothing and respectfully laid side by side. N.B. a possible explanation of their injuries is falling out of a tree after suffering an electrical discharge from BL. Evidence to support this is that the tree tops were burnt (as were as the bodies). Regarding the remaining seven my theory would be that they all retired to the ravine to shelter from the wind and built a den out of branches to isolate themselves from the icy ground. The party was sufficiently relaxed about their situation that some of the clothing was left hanging rather than being worn. Then there was a violent event that created the injuries. My explanation is that ball lightning appeared overhead of some of the party which would have been dispersed (e.g. collecting more branches or perhaps there had been fighting and they'd split into two groups) and then exploded. Those nearest the blast received fatal injuries, those further away were thrown off their feet and received non fatal bruising (i.e. RS and SK, also ID had blood in his mouth). What's interesting is what happens next :- 1. the remaining three do not appear to stop to recover extra clothing or footwear not even the clothing hanging on branches this suggests that they abandon the site with urgency. Some of the ravine four were very comfortably dressed including footwear (SZ and NTB). N.B. ZK had no footwear, RS had one boot, ID had no footwear, but they didn't stop to collect any even they subsequently appear to have died of hyperthermia... N.B. the clothing of the ravine four was contaminated with radiation. 2. they then appear to be making their way back to the tent but all three of them expire within say 200 meters of other? This is very strange, the snow wasn't deep, surely it should be more variable than that, that they would die hours apart, or at least one/two hours apart? It's as if they were all suffering from some fatal sickness that got all three at the same time. Acute radiation sickness? Whatever all three seem to have ceased moving forward within say 15 minutes of each other....
Robs
26-09-2016 16:25 (GMT)
So how do you explain the injuries on the 3 trying to make it back to the tent and the none injuries of the ones underneath the tree (apart from burns which could have been caused by the fire). Are you saying that there was multiple BL explosions or it was all caused by one?
Nigel Evans
26-09-2016 16:12 (GMT)
Robs > well it's good to chew over it with an opposing view but what can be said for certain is that :-
1. the local mansi people blamed the "golden orbs". 2. another hiking party in the region miles away saw a light descend in the DP area and then heard a bang on that night. 3. other eye witness accounts of "lights" over the following weeks including from the rescue party on the same mountain. 4. the pathologist ruled out falling as the cause of the injuries and suggested "like a shockwave from a bomb". 5. alpine experts ruled out avalanches. 6. Ivanov an experienced professional police investigator determined the fireballs as the cause but was overruled by his superiors. 7. beta radiation was discovered on clothing and a water test suggested that the original contamination was high.
Robs
26-09-2016 12:36 (GMT)
Like I say I still don't buy the BL explanation however the only thing that we can for certain is that all left the tent in a hurry for whatever reason and died in 3 groups it's a tragic incident
Nigel Evans
26-09-2016 12:03 (GMT)
Robs > i'd try reading the wikimedia article a bit further.
She didn't just bite part of her tongue off. Again from this site - "The medical records simply (state) that "the tongue is missing". Vozrojdenniy describes missing hypoglossal muscle as well as muscles of the floor of the mouth.". I.e. all the soft tissue within mouth was removed. A possible explanation here is that she bit her tongue, swallowed some blood before dying and then predation attracted by the wound did the rest. Crustacea like water snails would be a good fit for the assymetry of the resultant damage, but note another good fit is whatever causes cattle mutilations....
Robs
26-09-2016 10:14 (GMT)
Without reading the entire wiki info but just skipping there seems to be no evidence of multiple people being killed. Like I say I am not saying you are wrong but personally find it unlikely. I think they fell into the ravine, she broke ribs and bit her tongue off. She was resting on the rock because she couldn't breathe.
So then the ball lightening just happened to kill the other 4 that were found in the ravine? I don't know facts on ball lightening but how many people had ball lightening killed? Do they all have similar injuries?
Nigel Evans
25-09-2016 21:27 (GMT)
then they slit the tent open from top to bottom to escape quickly (from the ball lightning that was getting too close).
Nigel Evans
25-09-2016 21:05 (GMT)
Robs > the distance from the tent to the trees is given in the map section as 1500 to 2000 meters. I agree with you that they left the tent quickly to return to the previous camp but fatally made an error in direction. Realising that they were now lost they built a fire to survive until dawn were the daylight would help with orientation. The tent had several slits made at eye height (to observe something) and then they slit the tent open from top to bottom to escape quickly.
Robs
25-09-2016 19:08 (GMT)
I have read your articles and I'm not dismissive of them because we will probably never know the truth. However let's take it one step at a time, what is your reasoning for cutting the tent to escape quickly? Only to run a few hundred meters and then stop and build a fire?
Nigel Evans
25-09-2016 18:17 (GMT)
>Robs, it's not about bombs but ball lightning, see my post dated - 04-05-2016 20:59 (GMT).
It appears that this was also the opinion of the chief police investigator Ivanov.
Robs
25-09-2016 17:47 (GMT)
I just don't buy the bomb theory. I think she bit her own tongue off when she fell, I find it impossible for the guy to say the fractures in her body were not from a fall when the bodies weren't found for months. If it was a bomb how did the others receive skull fractures and abrasive marks. Why did the others build a fire? If bombs were going off I wouldn't stop and build a fire. Why did they exit the tent so quickly? Obviously this is all my theory but I think it best explains the deaths.
Nigel Evans
25-09-2016 16:05 (GMT)
>RobS - from this website (under DEATH) - "Vozrojdenniy, who undertook the autopsy, excluded accidental fall on the rock as a possible cause for such a massive and unusual fracture" He also said in his report (documented in Svetlana Oss's book) that the injuries of the ravine four were consistent with the shockwave from a bomb. Also LD had 100ml of blood in her stomach, suggesting that the tongue and associated muscle were removed whilst she was still alive and she swallowed.
RobS
25-09-2016 12:00 (GMT)
Ok my theory Why did they cut the tent to get out? They were obviously panicked, so it has to be avalanche or threat of one. Loud noises etc would not make you cut the tent to get out. It was not an avalanche but maybe a few inches of snow panicked them. The other option is a brutal fight in tent which made them exit quickly. I think they ran not walked down to the tree obviously thinking they were heading to the hut. They realised that they were the in trouble as weather closed in and visibly was poor. They built fire and climbed tree trying to find hut. By then they were all together. (If it was a fight they were all back friends realising their mistake). Three went back to tent and didn't make it. Four went to find hut fell into ravine causing brutal injuries which killed them pretty quickly. The questions that I would like answered if anyone knows is. How deep was ravine could it have been deep enough to cause crushing injuries if they fell. Was there and blood found in or around tent this would explain fight. I don't think it was yeti, special forces, ufos or anything similar.
Nigel Evans
22-09-2016 16:35 (GMT)
>Joseph, the pass is at 61°45?17?N 59°27?46?E but i think you'd have to work out the other coords from the maps. Why do you need to know exactly? They were young fit individuals, cross country skiing with 1959 equipment is a demanding activity. The pathologist noted that "the ravine four" would have probably survived their extensive injuries for up to half an hour due to their youth and high level of fitness.
Joseph G. Sego
20-09-2016 21:36 (GMT)
Also, the hiking equipment that the Hikers had seemed heavy. Does anyone know the actual height of the Hikers?? How about Luda and Zina. Judging from the pictures of the Hikers, they did not appear to be very tall or very strong. I would appreciate if I could get answers to my questions.
Joseph G. Sego
20-09-2016 21:26 (GMT)
Great site. I only hope that someone on this site has the co-ordinates of Dyatlov's tent on 1079. Also, would like to know the co-ordinates of the ravine and the cedar tree. Anyone know these co-ordinates???
Thank you
CH
17-09-2016 11:16 (GMT)
When Lyudmila Dubinina says goodbye to Yuri Yudin on the abandoned settlement of "Second-North". To the right is "Thibeaux-Brignolle" [not Zolotaryov] and on the left, is Igor Dyatlov. Cheers,
CH
17-09-2016 11:16 (GMT)
When Lyudmila Dubinina says goodbye to Yuri Yudin on the abandoned settlement of "Second-North". To the right is "Thibeaux-Brignolle" [not Zolotaryov] and on the left, is Igor Dyatlov. Cheers,
CH
12-09-2016 05:02 (GMT)
Diary 28 - Snow cover is significantly less than last year. Lyuda Dubinina - this entry is not signed, but can't be anybody else but Dubinina.
This would be Igor Dyatlov [not Lyuda] because he had been there the year before. He spoke about Zina as well, because he was courting her at the time of the trip.
Nigel Evans
08-09-2016 11:50 (GMT)
> kmr, interesting. It seems that Ivanov had to dilute his report from what he wanted to say - "it was the fireballs" to "unknown and compelling force" and material was removed from it in order to support the change of direction. So it's plausible that they did take photographs that have quietly resurfaced. Might be some journals out there as well.
CH
07-09-2016 11:20 (GMT)
№29-30 shows Kolevatov posing in his burned quilted jacket with humor ...
I think it is Rustem Slobodin in the jacket, not Kolevatov. Check the facial structure against other photos. Cheers,
Suzanne
06-09-2016 13:28 (GMT)
I really like Ian's conclusion - he has by far explained what might have happened to the individuals with the most plausable explanation. Whether or not it was soldiers is probably the only "iffy" part of the explanation. It could have been natives or soldiers - doesn't matter. It definitely fits the clues left.
Nigel Evans
02-09-2016 18:40 (GMT)
>> Eugene, good link. Although google's translation is a somewhay garbled, section 14 was interesting. He makes (to me) a new observation that three out of the four ravine bodies had scalp tissue damage towards the back of the head. Suggesting that they were thrown backwards with some force. Imo this fits with my "BL explosion" theory as would be looking at (facing) the object before it exploded.
>> Ian, quite agree with your opening sentences, a tragic end to these young lives.
However it is very difficult to fit the facts with a "they were murdered theory". The key problem is that the autopsies showed that the extensive fractures did not include trauma to the relevant tissues, the pathologist recording that the injuries were consistent with the "shockwave from a bomb".
Another problem is that the Soviet authorities took the event very seriously and at considerable cost (police team, kgb team helicopters etc for 3-4 months) investigated it very thoroughly. The only explanation for this is that the military were not involved and the authorities were baffled and hence had concerns for national security.
My theory is recorded below ( 04-05-2016 20:59 (GMT)). I know ball lightning may sound like science fiction to some, but if so they should read "Ball Lightning: Paradox of Physics by Paul Sagan". The Dyatlov incident would fit within his classification as "Lethal Rocket BL" - descends from the clouds, travels above the ground before discharging and/or exploding possibly with loss of life. BL also explains why they vacated the tent in the way they did and "that photo".
Imo some or all of the group knew about the existance of the dyatlov lights and this is why they broke their previous camp so late (3pm?) and travelled such a short distance before they camped there on the mountain to observe them (one camera in the tent was on a home made tripod) and SZ had a secret camera of course.
Ian
13-08-2016 14:11 (GMT)
These were young people full of life and ability, who would have brought a lot of good into the world if they had been able to live out their natural lifetimes. The sheer tragedy of this story hasn’t allowed it to leave my mind for days. At least for me, trying to put together a rational explanation of the events brings a little bit of closure. I’m not saying that the hypothetical scenario that follows is what happened, but I do think it fits all of the available evidence. What do you think?
Sometime during the day or evening of Feb 1st, the Dyatlov group encountered a clandestine testing or training operation perhaps involving jets or rockets (This would explain the reports of glowing orange lights and the military debris in the area later noted by YY). It wasn’t the type of situation where there was a fear of the hikers leaking photographs of a secrete weapon (their cameras would have simply been confiscated). For some reason, the group itself came to be perceived as the threat.
The group’s journal records that as they were traveling towards the beginning point of their hike, they sometimes sung anti-revolution songs that could have landed them in jail. They twice had scrapes with authorities on their trip (once for singing). Also from the journal, it appears that they enjoyed free and open debates about a variety of topics. Later, out in the woods hundreds of km from the nearest settlement (journal entry), they probably would have felt even greater freedom in such expressions. Entering into the area of an ongoing operation may have brought them under surveylence, perhaps without their knowledge. An overheard song or a frank debate about politics, combined with their chance-but-perceived-as-“suspicious” presence in a sensitive area, caused them to be viewed as subversive.
They camped that night on open high ground. When one of the members, perhaps SZ or NYB, stepped outside to relieve himself, if it was clear, his flashlight would have been visible for a long distance, alerting anyone in the area who might not have already been aware of their tent’s precise location. Minutes later, as the group was finishing dinner and drying out their clothes, a small armed detachment arrived at the tent. Whoever it was (I’ll call them “soldiers”) knocked the tent down, fired a few rounds into the air, and ordered the hikers outside or they would be shot. (Supposedly, there were no footprints other than the Dyaltov party’s at the tent, but how could one tell? Surely the Dyaltov group made many boot prints when they set up camp, obviously the rescuers were wearing boots days later when they got to the tent. At first no one suspected it could be a crime scene. It is not just possible but probable that a couple extra pairs of footprints at the tent would have gone unnoticed).
Unexpected gunfire and barking orders would have sent a momentary jolt of fear into even these level-headed travelers. Members of the group who had pocket knives at hand quickly cut through the tent to get everyone outside before the threat was carried out. The multiple cuts in the tent were created in the panic and confusion of exiting a wriggling collapsed tent cover in the dark.
The soldiers wanted to neutralize the hikers, but to leave bullet holes or other obvious wounds would have eventually led to strong demands for an explanation from the community. The soldiers chose to expose them to the cold. Under some guise, the soldiers told the Dyatlov group that they had to leave the area immediately. With great presence of mind, the group leader, ID grabbed a flashlight and his heavy coat as he was leaving the tent. He was immediately ordered to leave them behind, setting the flashlight on the tent, and throwing his coat down, near the spot where he had exited (It’s difficult to conceive of another logical scenario that would explain these objects being found where they were).
The Dyaltov party was followed, but not very far. (Their being followed some distance would explain the heeled boot track found among their own tracks as they headed down slope - No one in the group was wearing such boots at this time). They dropped a lit flashlight on the way, either because they were ordered to do so, or in hopes of using it as a beacon to direct them back to the tent if the soldiers left.
Poorly clothed, in extreme cold, and possibly in the dark, these resilient people covered half the distance that they traveled in their entire day’s hike, to arrive at the nearest tree line. This probably took quite a bit of time, and they knew that with their level of exposure the clock was against them. They set up a small base camp under a pine tree, just out of site of the tent, and together built an emergency fire (an impressive feat with frozen wood, in the cold, with no gloves, and possibly in the dark). Afraid that the soldiers were still at the tent, and unsure if they would pursue, YD and YK were posted near the fire to keep a lookout for the soldiers’ approach. (This would explain why branches were broken off so high up in the tree on the side of the tent, when other branches would have been easier to obtain.) Perhaps they kept a lookout from up in the tree as long as they could. Many or all of the injuries on these two individuals were from exposed hands getting frost bite in the tree, eventually leading to them falling out.
The rest of the group proceeded to build a shelter in a protected area, near, but out of site of the lookout tree. The small fire of frozen wood was not enough to keep the injured YD, and YK warm. Even though they burned parts of their numb extremities, they fell asleep. Either someone in the group was with them, or came back to them, showing care and respect by placing the bodies next to each other. The outer clothes, no longer of any use to the deceased, were removed. At this point, the shelter was not yet finished, because some of their clothing was incorporated into it. The survivors did their best to stay warm in the shelter, but were dangerously cold and heartbroken over the deaths.
Shortly before dawn, the soldiers returned to make sure no one was left to tell the tale. They discovered the shelter, and a hand-to-hand fight ensued. (This would explain many’s of the group’s injuries, including the bruised metacarples on ID and RS, RS’s concussion, and the baton bruise on ZK.) Exhausted and freezing, the group was now no match for their assailants even without the use of their guns).
ID, RS, and ZK managed to break free into the darkness. They made a run for the tent, desperate for the axes or anything to help their friends. (Such a level of desperation would explain why they left the group, the shelter, and the fire, when they were so close to freezing that they could only go a few hundred more yards). ZK, a strong and brave young woman came the closest to making it.
As for the group that was left, the soldiers pressed LD and SZ to death, broke YK’s neck, and crushed TBS’s skull, neutralizing them without leaving any obvious weapon mark. (Such a grim scenario would explain the types of injuries sustained by the party members found in the ravine - crushed chests with none of the external cuts or arm injuries that would have certainly happened in a fall, explain why they were all found outside of their nearby shelter, explain the fragment of soldier’s garb found in the ravine, and explain why it was subsequently taken out of evidence). The autopsies of these group members were the most vague, because the coroners had no choice. More detail would have raised still more questions from the community and gotten them in official hot water.
It is significant that YY, who was a part of the group, knew the Dyatlov party’s circumstances better than any living person, and saw all or most of the original evidence, thought that the military had something to do with his friend’s deaths. In 2008, 6 of the original rescuers and a team of 31 experts came to the similar conclusion that military testing was involved. The official report was that the Dyatlov group died at the hands of an “unknown compelling force”. How could words come closer to summarizing the above, without implicating the party responsible? This may also explain why the military closed the area for the following three years.
Any thoughts?
Isaac
11-07-2016 07:35 (GMT)
Monday july 11 2016 i have a dream where i am sent to a disaster to clean. Flash foward. I am on a snowy mountain. Looking at a tag on a sleeping bag. In russian. Someone calls out Georgiy. The dream ends. It is 12:30. I may have been him in my past life. Please. If any other information is obtained leave a link to it. All i typed in is gregory And russian factory incident. This came up and said all of the information i need to be convinced of this happening is something bigger. I am but 14. If anyone has anymore information please leave another comment. My name is Isaac Perez.
julie
02-07-2016 17:59 (GMT)
Orange orbs I heard were associated with grays??
julie
02-07-2016 17:48 (GMT)
Whats most interesting is why they felt they had no time to gather their shoes, skiis, and he kept camera for a reason...they were into tech ask the natives.
julie
02-07-2016 17:22 (GMT)
I read that local natives know to stay away from certain areas due to lore of something thats been there a long time. Perhaps they were dropped, running from something left quick, radiation, one had color of hair changes not mentioned in article, running from something...I think they were dealing with a technology...they all look very pointedly smart why go out to such extent seems like mission gone bad.
Berkay Tasdemir
01-07-2016 04:39 (GMT)
Great but I have middle English , please add Turkish language for us.
by the way -- this you tube video is the best I've seen on ball lightning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lavcOYUGnfQ at 11:30 into the video is a ball that comes toward and above the viewer (goes above someone who was filming from inside a building) -- THAT segment looks something that would have produced a B&W still photo much like the last of the Dyatlov photos.
John Wolfe
21-06-2016 01:56 (GMT)
Hi Nigel
My point of the abandoned village is that it was close to the area where the hikers died -- granted some distance, in miles -- but that it might have had similar experiences either lightning or ball lightning. note: hikers 80 miles away saw balls of light on a different day - and at a different location. No one abandons a village that is 1/2 way built unless there was an "unknown compelling force". Of course there could be other reasons -- such as a change in economic plans -- but these would tend to simply change the nature of the village, say from housing scientists or engineers to use by hikers or as vacation dashas. Leaving a village behind and not returning at all has to have a big reason. A reason that was not apparent when they chose that location for a village. There are areas on Earth where balls of light continue to be seen on a regular basis, maybe that area is one of them.
Nigel Evans
20-06-2016 14:59 (GMT)
John > Yes Tesla could produce ball lightning as have others - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_lightning But no one's got a good explanation of why it's happening Not sure that the abandoned village is part of the DPI? I'm moving away from the anti matter comet theory, difficult to explain the modest/stationary velocities commonly observed. One of the theories for the Tunguska event is that there is some unknown interaction between the atmosphere and the earth - a "geo motor". This would explain the localisation/repetition of the "lights" phenomenon of course.
John Wolfe
18-06-2016 00:34 (GMT)
Hi Nigel,
Have you gone to much of the Dyatlovmania sites? I just went to one that claimed the tent was on a "steep slope" that was "subject to avalanche" -- which is the opposite of the facts. (that was the coldsmokeco web-site) When I see stuff like that - I just stop reading and go somewhere else.
Question: any idea, if any of the research of N. Tesla reported any fire-balls of any kind? Most things I have read or seen talk about his interest in radio and power transmission and other high voltage / high frequency phenomena -- he also worked with static charge accumulation and so I'm betting there were "accidents" which might have produced a fire-ball but were ignored as just an effect of whatever the accident involved.
That web-site you went to said somewhere that it was (in part) a work of art which presents a true event -- and what I noticed is that they sometimes used the images from the hiker's stills but crudely animated them and etc. -- made a few video clips --- also: what verification code ?
still my big question is WHY that scientist's village was abandoned ?
Was that a research site? or an engineering site? or what? What were they doing building a small village of log homes right in the middle of nowhere in Southern Siberia and then abandon the village -- some photos showing walls 1/2 way built (not falling down) and notice that ALL the roofs are in good shape as if they were just built -- several buildings have windows, but others buildings are not finished and have not been windowed, but are framed for windows. I think they left in a hurry -- which is what the hikers did as well .............
Nigel Evans
16-06-2016 12:39 (GMT)
John > Lovely website, a masterclass in presentation. But i don't think all of the fotos are connected with the event. But some interesting original info. I regularly have to re enter the verification code. I've googling further and may have hit the jackpot! :- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimatter_comet Seems an excellent explanation for the DPI evidence. Maybe for cattle mutilations and spontaneous combustion. I'd agree that BL maybe a generic term for multiple phenomema, google naga fireballs.
John Wolfe
15-06-2016 20:11 (GMT)
Hi Nigel,
I just went to that web-site and it doesn't have the translations I thought it had (does have a few of reports of lights and etc.)
Also: I am wondering about that "abandoned" village the hikers encounter -- here's why; 1) the buildings look relatively new with good (still intact) roofs and SOME OF THE BUILDINGS LOOK ABANDONDED 1/2 WAY THROUGH CONSTRUCTION 2) the buildings have the feel of a project abandoned 1/2 way through its start-up (could be just another failed project, but it looks more ominous) no one is even using the buildings for a shelter or village or whatever. The hikers don't say much and treat it as some normal thing.
-- this leads me to believe that it might have had problems. In the pull-down for Cameras you can clock on the entire selection of recovered film -- there are several shots of this abandoned village -- including one with a wall and roof half built -- I'm wondering why this new village was abandoned. Do you have any info on this?
John Wolfe
15-06-2016 19:37 (GMT)
Hi Nigel,
Question about this comments section:
Do you have problems with the "verification code" ? -- several times I enter the exact 'code' and it rejects it as "invalid" -- does this happen to you ?
John Wolfe
15-06-2016 19:33 (GMT)
I would think that a best fit of natural events is the best anyone can do to explain this. With that in mind: the two Florida Institute of Technology over-view lectures on lightning research (watch one, as they are versions of the same lecture) both report -- BOTH Gamma Rays and anti-matter jets (positrons) in the upper atmosphere -- so you're anti-mater conjecture could be possible. However, I'm not convinced that BL is one phenomena but could be two -- as some balls are hot and start fires and explode and cause damage, while others just go around glowing for a while and then just dissipate. Also there are a few good videos that show BL moving across the sky with a much longer life-span. (minutes as opposed to seconds)
Nigel Evans
13-06-2016 11:53 (GMT)
John. I have a degree in Physics from the University of London. Yes matter-antimatter interactions release huge amounts of energy (more than nuclear fission from memory) because the atomic nucleus is annihilated but here we're only seeing the electrons being annihilated with positrons, the mass and energies involved are much much smaller. You just get gamma rays. Granted these might kill you within hours or days but not from an explosion. Anyway the BL composed of positrons theory is just some blue sky thinking from me to connect Dubinina's injuries with cattle mutilations. Very possibly (anti matter) pie in the sky. But n.b. Dyatlov might have been showing signs of ARS - acute radiation sickness as he had blood on his lips possibly from vomiting. Weakened by ARS as well as the cold could help explain how the three failed to make it back to the tent. Afaik, Svetlana Oss is the only Russian national who has investigated the dpi and translated the Soviet archives/reports/affidavits into English for a Western audience. Apparently it's not "Mountain of the Dead" but "Dead Mountain", which is a big difference, e.g. "The Sea of the Dead" versus "The Dead Sea". So imo it's the best source of the facts rather than spooky hype and it's not unreasonable to give her a plug when i'm quoting verbatim from her book. This is how she makes her living. Glad you favour the BL theory. At least we agree on something..
John Wolfe
13-06-2016 04:28 (GMT)
Hi Nigel,
You need to study some high-energy physics --- gamma ray particles are among the most energetic and powerful in the universe. Also matter-antimatter interactions release huge amounts of energy -- what looks small to you is because you have confused the energy of one particle with the energy of a large group of particles. For example: if I hit you over the head with ONE molecule of wood, I suspect that no matter how hard I do that, you will not even feel it --- now compare that with the results of a large number of wood molecules .... like a baseball bat ! The anti-matter (positrons creating BL in this example) might have a similar effect (assuming BL is made up of positrons) --- there would be a big release of energy (explosion) which could cause the injuries seen. However simple electrical energy could also do this -- which is why you see damage from regular lightning. The DPI injuries are consistent with being close to a release of a fair amount of air-burst energy -- enough to compress parts of the body without causing surface (skin) damage.
I have not read the Svetlana Oss book, however, from interviews (I just watched) I can see that she is just exploiting the DI for financial benefit - she even refuses to speak on camera about her own conclusions but suggests everyone buy the book (a dead giveaway NOT to buy the book).
Also: I noticed that several (researchers? writers? etc.) have repeated each other's nonsense as if it were fact (further confusing the story).
also: I do think the reports of BL are as accurate as can be expected - considering that the various reporters were not familiar the phenomena; like myself, I have never seen it, but do know of its existence -- many people in the 50's or 60's, even well educated people, would have never even read about BL.
I favor the BL approach to the DPI as it is the most simple, makes the most sense, and most importantly: other people at other times have reported seeing what would be interpreted as BL.
Nigel Evans
12-06-2016 17:36 (GMT)
>John, i've been rereading Svetlana Oss's book and realised i'd answered a question from you badly - wrt other sightings of the lights, her book records the following :- 07/02/59:06.55 - a detailed description from the Deputy Head of Vysokogorny Colliery. 07/02/59:0600 - ditto from a two members of the rescue group. Both reports talk about a large globe or concentric rings 5,6 times larger than a full moon with a bright star in the centre. 15.03.59:0650 - from a meteorological technician. Comet with a tail turned into a large ball with a star at the centre. 31.03.59:0400 - search party sentry on duty and all members who were awake saw a large fiery ring with a star at the centre that grew to the size of the moon before dropping out of sight. N.B. they were so concerned for their safety that they radioed the sighting and specifically requested assurances that they were safe there "because it made a pretty alarming impression".... But the kicker imo is the following, her book records the formal interview between Ivanov the chief investigator and Vozrozhdenniy the forensic pathologist who performed the autopsies. Ivanov is asking about the three who recieved the worst fractures - Tibo, Dubinina and Zolotaryov (as spelt in the book). Tibo's skull fracture showed no impact damage to the associated soft tissue (i.e. he wasn't hit by a rock). Dubinina and Zolotaryov chest fractures are explained as "These wounds, especially appearing in such a way without any damage to the soft tissue of the chest are very similar to the type of trauma that results from the shock wave of a bomb". For anyone reading this and who interested in all things Dyatlov, i'd recommend her book "Don't go there"- Svetlana Oss, she's an English speaking Russian journalist who has done a thorough research job imo, granted i don't agree with her conclsion but you'll have to buy her book to find out why... Not expensive on Amazon.
Nigel Evans
09-06-2016 22:10 (GMT)
Hi John. Wrt "Anti-matter would not "dissolve" matter -- it would explode with force on contact with it!" I can't agree, an electron / positron annihilation just results in two high energy photons (gamma rays). That's all, nothing else. Imo it could just be a pop or a fizz. But the "matter" would disappear.
Wrt to predation, well the blood in the stomach is very easy to explain as swallowed. Also the profile of the facial tissue damage amongst the four bodies found in the stream is highly asymmetric. Also it doesn't of course explain the fractures.
John Wolfe
08-06-2016 23:58 (GMT)
Hi Nigel,
a better "anti-matter" connection to ball lightning might be if the ball itself is or contains anti-matter --- which could explode with force, but no chemical heat, and could explain some of the injuries -- but not how the ball could enter the tent, nor things like the facial injuries, which are very consistent with small animals (mice or birds?) nibbling on the soft tissues. Eyes make great fish-bait and are illegal for such use in many states (they work that good) so face down in a creek might cause the eyes and etc to be eaten. I went to some forensic autopsy sites and found that this kind of soft tissue injury is, indeed, common. Anti-matter would not "dissolve" matter -- it would explode with force on contact with it!
Nigel Evans
04-06-2016 21:45 (GMT)
> John, only know about the videos on youtube.
Thinking further on the connection between lightning and positrons, if i assert that BL is composed of a container of positrons=anti matter that is stable for a limited time then this gives the following explanation wrt dyatlov :- Dubinina's and Zolotaryov's injuries could be explained by a beam (cloud?) of anti matter released from one BL just before another one exploded. The cloud hits them in the face removing their eyes which would focus the radiation onto the retina. It also removes eyebrows, eyelids and surrounding facial tissue. In Dubinina's case she starts to inhale (perhaps to scream) and takes in some of the cloud removing her tongue and lower muscle, nose tissue, upper lip and left cheek. Whilst they are still reeling she swallows about 100ml of blood before another BL explodes resulting in the chest fractures as they are thrown with great force.
I should add that i've read the anti matter removing the tongue theory elsewhere on the web so not original. At first i thought it to be a crank idea but now i like it more. It is a recorded feature of BL that a single ball can breakup into several smaller ones, which also fits here.
N.B. the radiation found on the clothing was beta.
John Wolfe
04-06-2016 05:33 (GMT)
Hi Nigel,
If you find any video lectures on ball lightning, please post them. I have not found much -- many bogus and / or UFO-space alien nonsense under the guise of "ball lightning video" The Florida Institute of Technology video was the best I've found, and his was just an informational lecture for the public.
Nigel Evans
03-06-2016 19:13 (GMT)
>John.
Good video thanks, interesting that lightning produces anti matter (positrons). I had to chuckle with the world's foremost expert talking for an hour, giving BL 30 seconds with "it does exist honest"...
John Wolfe
03-06-2016 04:18 (GMT)
Hi Nigel,
Spinning magnetic field -- CREATING -- spinning electrical field -- CREATING -- spinning plasma. I think it starts with a spinning magnetic field.
and thanks, I am aware of the other reports of "lights" or balls of light in the sky. The lightning tutorials I listed below are interesting in that they are presented by a PhD who has studied lighting in Florida for over a decade. He is boring but worth watching once as he highlights two things: 1) tons of upper atmosphere mega-lightning and linked lightning over large areas; and 2) the fact that lightning does some strange (ie. unexplained) things.
ALSO: its possible that various people saw various things / "lights in the sky" some might have been rockets -- but not on that night. However, because of the tests, some of the local party officials might have tried to "cover-up" something that didn't happen, thus complicating things.
Nigel Evans
02-06-2016 19:26 (GMT)
>John - Another hiking group in the area reported seeing the lights as did the Mansi from memory.
Spinning ionised air initiating something else. However I personally like the "earthquake lights" theory. Some of the theories for the Tunguska event (an explosion of megatons) discuss BL, as the event is difficult to explain as a comet/meteor as there's no impact crater and observers state it changed direction. Curiously Tunguska is at a very similar latitude to Dyatlov and Hassdalen just over 60 degrees north...
John Wolfe
02-06-2016 08:03 (GMT)
In the dyatlovmania section there are a couple of photos taken at the site where the tent was and they show what looks like snow that has been blown by very strong winds -- which is consistent with the contours shown in the maps section. Whether the wind had any effect on the hikers is still not known, but infrasound with ball lightning -- and during a Siberian blizzard -- might be some sort of fatal mix, causing enough terror to chase the hikers from the area and toward the protection of the forest line below. Without something (the ball lightning?) to chase them out of the tent, its just another stormy night on a mountain.
Also, in that same dyatlovmania section are quite a few quotes -- some reporting ball lightning in the same area -- any idea where they came from? There are no citations.
John Wolfe
02-06-2016 07:49 (GMT)
Not the spinning of the ionized air (which may happen) but the spinning of a magnetic field creating a hot electrical field acting like a feed-back loop. (a field, which can pass through many things, such as a window or wall and etc.) And yes, that created plasma might also explode, causing much of the injuries seen -- compression injuries -- against a lung full of air could break the rib-cage. There are places in the USA where balls of (??) light are seen moving around -- Marfa, Texas comes to mind. Also, everyone is making an assumption that all the injuries happened AFTER leaving the tent -- do we know that 'for sure'?
Nigel Evans
01-06-2016 18:07 (GMT)
> John Wolfe, hi.
Yes well spinning ionised air seems to be a common factor - tornadoes, aircraft wing tip vortex (foo fighters), but how this results in stable persistent objects is still unknown afaik.
Regarding your comment about radiation levels not being significant, the contaminated clothing was subjected to a "water test" - placed in running water for say 12 hours to see how much it reduced the radiation, (the bodies had been in a stream for many weeks). Based on this test is was determined that the initial exposure was quite high.
I agree that the last frame could be a BL photo.
Personally i'd be cautious about throwing metal at BL, one of the theories explains explosions as rapid shorting of different layers. The chest fractures were consistent with being dropped 60 feet.... .
Regards
John Wolfe
31-05-2016 02:07 (GMT)
note to Nigel Evans:
Ball lightning seems to be several related phenomena -- while I have no answers -- having watched the formation of ball lightning (on videos) I would conjecture that it might be some sort of rapidly spinning MAGNETIC field effect: 1) spinning magnetic fields create electrical current possibly self-contained and energetically creating a plasma from the surrounding air -- this would account for its ability to go through walls and etc.; 2) since the rate of field rotation could be almost random -- the differences in spin-rate might account for the vast difference in reported power / activity of the visible ball of plasma; some explode with enough power to injure or damage, but many just dissipate with no apparent harm.
Sad to say, but if I'm right, and if ball lightning had entered the tent, the hikers could have thrown any metal object at it and it would have disrupted the spinning field.
also note: rescuers reported that the hikers DID NOT set up the metal stove and its metal chimney (as if they were experiencing or expecting lightning)
John Wolfe
31-05-2016 01:48 (GMT)
A good tutorial on lightning is on this you tube site:
which is from Florida Institute of Technology -- the lecturer, J. Dwyer, has several worth-while you tube lectures. (note: you have to be able to follow a one hour lecture to benefit, as its more technological and less entertainment orientated) Here's another of his lectures on lightning:
that last frame of film #1 -- the "technical photo" might not be a lab image of tripping the shutter (to wind the film back onto spool) -- I initially had no thoughts about it but thought I'd look at internet images of ball lightning as it might be ball lightning (plasma). The internet has a lot of bogus images which could easily be anything -- HOWEVER: after several hours of fruitless looking at many images and videos of ball lightning, I did see two images which are eerily similar: one, a still shows almost the same sort of blurred bright blob moving through the frame; and the other, a video (and this is what convinced me) a similar blob, which was definitely ball lightning (formed from a lightning strike) coming at the camera (over a short time, a few seconds close up, mostly distant, total elapsed time about one minute - 100 meters? - comes right at the camera and goes above it in just a few seconds -- and looks just like what would make that "last frame" image on film #1) I then interviewed two hikers who were caught in a lightning storm on a mountainous site of similar elevation (but in the Summer) in the USA. They were in their separate one man tents and it was night and began storming. The lightning was very intense and hit near-by many times for a few minutes -- they then notices a humming-buzzing sound and saw, through the tent fabric that a bright blob of light was hovering around their two side-by-side tents. What was of special interest was that they both reported extreme fright -- the kind that might make you cut through the tent to get out the back-side if the ball lightning came through the tent material or that came through the closed flap. I also note, that there are many vertical cuts in the Dyatlov tent -- as if someone was trying to let something out of the tent -- however I am not convinced that all of these cuts were done by the hikers, as they could have been done by the rescue party in an effort to expose the tent's contents (and possibly anyone still inside - which they then found out were elsewhere.
John Wolfe
31-05-2016 00:49 (GMT)
note: for anyone actually interested in this fairly complete site -- I sometimes sign my name "JD Wolfe" -- both are me. I sometimes sign differently not remembering that, that causes confusion, sorry.
john wolfe
28-05-2016 05:25 (GMT)
OOPS ! how do I edit a misspelling once posted? (I'm dyslexic)
misspelled "clothes" in the post below:
john wolfe
28-05-2016 05:23 (GMT)
I am wondering if the tent was found with the fasteners still holding the opening / flaps, or were they open? I assume they were closed. Also I am not familiar enough with the tent to know what the fasteners are made of and their design -- no one has discussed this crucial information from what I've read.
ALSO: the radiation on the closes was minimal and consistent with the two things in Soviet (and World) life then; specifically 1) the amount and numbers of atmospheric nuclear bomb tests, and 2) some of the party had access to minor nuclear materials in the labs they worked in -- remember -- they were undergraduate and graduate students at the MIT of the Soviet Union, in the 1050's.
Prism
25-05-2016 04:18 (GMT)
Awesome site - I will tell you what I think and this story and gave me the creeps at first.
I am an Eagle Scout, I've camped in zero degree weather. I have read, Dyatlov, had some sort of rigged gas stove to help keep them warm at night and might have had a problem causing someone to yell that it was gonna blow, obviously these folks were either asleep or about to be, and probably had most of their clothes off to try and dry, and when you're cold and tired being half asleep and probably low on calories, you almost feel drugged.
Since you cant untie those old tents fast, probably one of them took a knife and cut them out and ran. grabbing what they could, thinking about the stove about to blow and that causing a possible avalanche ran towards the direction they thought was that cabin, instead they went the wrong way, judging that where the tree was at, was about the same distance as the cabin (on the other side of the mountain area), the few that were injured probably climbed the tree and fell looking for the cabin or land marks...you've got to remember they probably were in blizzard like conditions.
Even though these people were obviously tough, hypothermia was probably setting in, that can cause all sorts of madness. They probably split the odds for survival, the two staying and building a fire, and Dyatlov and the other two trying to get back to the tent. I've read Dyatlov had a branch in his hand, and people saying he was fighting...he probably was shielding himself from the wind/snow hitting him in the face. The others being injured bad, if they were still alive, probably huddled together to keep warm.
And the radiation, they used to make thorium dioxide (I think that's right) lantern wicks. If those break that garbage gets on you.
tl
17-05-2016 18:37 (GMT)
I thought of an alternative to the small avalanche. An enormous snow drift builds up on their tent while they sleep. At some point, the tent suddenly collapses as we see in the pictures. It gives them the impression of an avalanche. They escape as fast as they can, some loose a shoe or a sock, but they are alive.
This explains both the upright tent poles and their panicked exit from the tent. Why else would they cut their way out and then abandon it. It must have been collapsed by snow, but could not have been collapsed by a normal avalanche, because the tent poles remained upright. A normal avalanche is quite unlikely on such a shallow incline.
When they dig their way out from the 2 or 3 meters of snow drift, they are in a panic. Their tent is collapsed, cut up and buried and they are afraid of further avalanches, so they hurry to get their supplies. The rest happens as described in my other comment.
Usually in a tent collapse, people have no choice but to remain with their tent and try to dig it out. But at Dyatlov pass, they had a supply depot nearby. It was just not close enough and very hard to find in the darkness.
With regard to Doroshenko climbing the tree, he was trying to collect firewood while remaining near the heat of the fire and also trying to prevent the branches above the fire from catching fire themselves.
About Krivonishchenko's burns. Think about the temperature differences involved. If you have -30C on your back, that's a -70C difference to your body temperature. Just to keep your temperature level, when standing still, you would need a +70C temperature difference in front of you. That would be 40C + 70C =110C. A fire is NO GOOD in these temperatures if you have poor clothing. You will die because the temperature you need from the fire is so high that you will get 3rd degree burns trying to get heat and still die of hypothermia. Poor Krivonischenko. You are a hero, all respect to you.
This explains why the people who were moving and had better clothing lasted longer than the people by the fire.
They are the Gods of the mountain.
tl
17-05-2016 11:42 (GMT)
I have a theory. The bright lights were rocket testing, possibly a rocket explosion. Not dangerously close, but close enough to scare them and trigger a small avalanche on the relatively shallow slope where that would not normally happen.
The avalanche is enough to cover the tent and scare them more, but not enough to injure them or flatten all the tent poles.
Because of the tent's orientation, the side facing down the hill is the only one not completely covered in snow, so in the darkness and their panic they manage to cut themselves out and escape the tent with what they have.
No one is injured at this point. The avalanche was only a meter or so deep.
The rocket testing is ongoing and they are extremely afraid, so they go down the hill toward their supply stash, but in the dark, they choose the wrong direction.
At the tree line a fire is lit. Kolevatov burns part of his jacket trying to get heat from the fire. They realise it will not be enough to save them and a group goes on to retrieve the supplies. Krivonischenko and Doroshenko stay to look after the fire. Krivonischenko is a hero and gives his brown sweater to Dubinina. "I don't need it I have the fire." He sees she is struggling and tries to save her. So the party splits for the first time.
The forward group fall through the fresh snow into the ravine and suffer injuries. Some die immediately. Clothes are redistributed and the injured are made as safe as possible where they are.
Those who can walk, that is Dyatlov, Slobodin and Kolmogrova, now realise that their direction was wrong because the ravine should not have been there. They also realise that the fire and the tent is safer than out here, so they head back, hoping to rescue their friends in the ravine later.
On the way back to the tent they find their friends dead. Krivonischenko had burned himself in the fire trying to keep warm but it was not enough. They place the bodies of Krivonischenko and Doroshenko together. Kolmogorova, Dyatlov and Slobodin head to the tent, but do not make it.
I am not sure about the theory. I decided to make the best case for this scenario that I can. I feel great sympathy for the people involved.
Nigel Evans
04-05-2016 20:59 (GMT)
Having read around this on the internet and including Svetalana Oss’s book “Don’t go there” it is clearly in my opinion ball lightning. Ivanov believed that UFOs was the best explanation, but he stressed not aliens, just lethal unidentified flying objects/fireballs, the soviet authorities diluting his finding to “unknown compelling force”. Ball lightning fits in with his view and explains :– mountain lights being observed from elsewhere and reported by the mansi, burns that are otherwise difficult to account for, burnt clothing, burnt tree tops, deaths due to extreme pressure (explosion). Because ball lightning isn’t yet understood by science it also allows the luxury of being stretched to explain skin colour, hair whitening, radiation. But in particular it works extremely well with what is perhaps the key question, why did they leave the tent that way? :- The occupants are settling down in the tent it is dark outside. A light (or lights) appear on the mountain bright enough to be noticed inside the tent. Fascinated the occupants start making slits along the top of tent at standing height (say three 30 cm slits, enough for up to nine people) to observe. Zolotaryov picks up his hidden KGB camera and keeps it around his neck for the duration. Then one of the lights moves very near or even enters the tent at or near to the entrance. N.B. it’s common for ball lightning to pass through matter without leaving a trace. Everyone very quickly exits the tent via cutting a slit at the back, there is no time to put on any footwear or extra clothes. Now unable to return to the tent (more lights?) and at risk of exposure they decide to make for the cache of food and kit. But they get lost because (1) ball lightning (electro magnetic energy?) affects their compass?) or (2) the bl is moving down the slope towards the cache? A type of bl is classed as “rollers”. or (3) they’re just disorientated by the dark and the snow (one of the last photos show them to be in whiteout conditions). Anyway they take the wrong path a critical decision that costs them their lives and might have resulted in brawling later if there was a difference of opinion when they set off. So they choose to camp next to a cedar that gives a good lookout to watch the lightshow back on the hill in order to make a return to the tent when it's safer as now they are not sure where the cache is located. But the lights move down the hill towards them burning some of the tree tops.... Beyond this point no one knows the order of events but it seems that Doroshenko and Krivonischenko were the first to die. N.B. both had burns that are not easily explained from a small camp fire but perhaps more easily explained by electrical discharge. E.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9QFU0u0L5U Historical records state that it is a feature of aggressive ball lightning that it can injure or kill (by burning) some members of a group leaving others unharmed or just with burnt clothing it all depends on the discharge. For the remaining seven either some or all moved to the ravine and four died due to another ball lightning exploding overhead with tremendous force. The remaining three where lucky enough to be distant enough from the blast not to be killed (n.b. Slobodin had a head fracture). Whatever, they realised that they could not shelter from the lights, their only remaining chance was to get off the mountain by returning to the tent and finding their boots and skis. Sadly weakened by cold and possibly the explosion they never made it. May they rest in peace.
Other thoughts – I don’t like the “murder by others” theory because imo it doesn’t fit the facts, no obvious lethal force, several of the party clearly died of hypothermia and clearly in at least two separate events, probably three. All the other injuries sustained by the party seem to be explainable by - brawling, climbing, collecting firewood, falling out of a tree, previous falls on the skiing trip (one had a bandage), that is all but one injury, Dubinina’s tongue (it’s my assumption the missing eyes can be explained by decomposition in the stream but possibly not?). Now here it starts getting rather interesting. If you google “cattle mutilations” you will find there is a well documented phenomenon (hundreds of cases?) that includes specific types of head trauma (disappearance of eyes, tongue and some mouth tissue) that are quite similar to Dubinina’s injuries. It’s not only cattle that are affected but other mammalian species as well, including it seems humans, google “human mutilation brazil”. Now if we discount the possibility that this is due to aliens or even humans performing brutal surgical processes we’re left with an unknown natural process as the cause, an energy that removes organ tissue selectively and exits the body via it’s orifices cauterising tissue bloodlessly in the process. Ivanov’s fireballs, ball lightning? Perhaps even an explanation for spontaneous combustion? Also Dyatlov Pass is at a very similar latitude to Hessdalen where the “lights” phenomenon has been more closely observed so it would be my conjecture that the Dyatlov lights are created by the same forces. N.B. higher radiation levels have been found at Hessdalen in areas where sightings have occurred.
Matt
03-05-2016 23:26 (GMT)
Where did the author of this site find obtain the autopsy report re: Zinaida? Was her cause of death solely hypothermia or hypothermia with violent accident?
You mean nobody noticed
02-05-2016 19:35 (GMT)
That all the victims are perfectly grouped , in order of their birthday , so on the slope 11,12,13 januari , mid slope , under the tree in ascending order 29 jan / 7 februari and at last 12 may / 8 july / 16 november. The only who is out of place is 2 februari , but he was the key person in this astrologycal ( as above so below ) event . The 10 th. survivor was totaly out of place , so it was an sacred event , i don't know who or what did this , but there is an astro connection.
Dudu Cordos
29-04-2016 10:17 (GMT)
Could a mini-nuke (experimental) detonation above the ground in the vicinity of the tent catapult the group of 4 straight into the ravine where they were found, causing the extensive damage to their body? That would explain why they are better dressed - assuming they were outside the tent at the moment of detonation. I mean just look at Dubinina position where she was found, against that rock; could have been slammed against the rock to her death?...Also explaining radioactivity (from the blast) in their clothes. The ones in the tent rushed out after event to look for the missing 4, ignoring the clothes, scared, in panic, only to find them death by the ravine; attempted to make a funeral bed for them but failed, one by one, to the cold. Here a permalink for a mini nuke explosion simulation near the position of the tent. The 15 psi blast radius would have been enough to blow them 1500 m away? Of course this don't explain other mismatched details, but... goes together with the glowing spheres saw by other people in that area... http://meyerweb.com/eric/tools/gmap/hydesim.html?dll=61.76016,59.43208&yd=1&zm=13&op=156
Nigel Evans
17-04-2016 13:07 (GMT)
Google "cattle mutilation". The phenomena includes organ removal and animals being dropped from a height.
Tammy
11-04-2016 01:19 (GMT)
The diaries mention a hunter. They were trespassing in Mansi land. They were murdered by a group of Mansi men. Stomped which could account for the horrific internal injuries. No UFO, no yeti, nothing supernatural. Murder.
Nigel Evans
06-04-2016 13:01 (GMT)
Google "mountain lights" and "longdendale lights"
Daniel
04-04-2016 19:08 (GMT)
Hello, It is the second attempt to write a comment...I think there was some trouble wit first.
In my opinion we must not be indifferent to what the Mansi community tells us. Something happens in those mountains area. Collected data witnesses, corpses state indicate the presence of a natural phenomenon linked to electricity that arises in this area. This electric phenomenon is a large-scale (different from the usual lightning; maybe ... similar to ball lightning or corona discharge) one, with a large transfer of electric charge between different ground areas through atmospheric layers. I believe that the nine were inside an electrical discharge in a large area (some plasma bullet). The theory can be verified by on-site measurements.
Great site.
Thomas Whiteside
04-04-2016 16:03 (GMT)
Firstly, great site.
Has it ever been theorised that the group was attempting to make a retreat from the tent (following 'the incident') back towards the food cache / storage house near the Auspia River (where they stored surplus food & supplies on January 31), but instead became totally disoriented and went down the wrong side of the slope instead?
Looking at the map it's doesn't seem to be a dissimilar distance to that from the tent to the cedar tree.
This could explain the following decisions: a. to leave food, supplies and some clothing in the tent -as they could be replaced once they reached the cache. b. to walk rather than run down the slope - if they have a plan to access food, shelter and clothing, they are perhaps calm and rational, not frantic and panicked. c. why Zolotarev, Kolevatov, Dubinia, and Thibeaux-Brignolle decided to keep heading down the slope (maybe they thought the cache was just a bit further downhill). d. it could even explain the possible fist fight between Dyatlov and Slobodin - perhaps they argued about whether they were going the right direction (admittedly this point is rather weak in support of this theory - an argument could have broken out in numerous circumstances)
All total conjecture, but the idea of an orderly retreat seems to fit with Igor Dyatlov's reputation for ingenuity and level headedness.
Obviously this theory hinges on what exactly they had cached, how much shelter the cache provided and how far away the cache site was from the tent.
Would love to know others' thoughts
Feel free to email me: last-pistol-shot@hotmail.com
John Wantling
03-04-2016 09:01 (GMT)
This film by Richard D. Hall and David Cayton contains the solution to this mass murder. UFOs AND NATO The Human Mutilation Cover Up 1 OF 6 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsBIkhwCNVA
br
24-03-2016 20:44 (GMT)
They get frightened by the guardian spirit Mansi Marvtvtv. End
wizzy
20-03-2016 02:56 (GMT)
does somebody know where the personal diaries can be found?
Andy
17-03-2016 02:56 (GMT)
yes It was the 'Russian Yeti' program I was referring to. Is the date on the official files that they show in the program accurate? say the military investigated on the 6th of Feb.
Maciste
16-03-2016 08:01 (GMT)
@Andy
Was there a new TV show broadcasting, or do you mean "The Russian Yeti - The Killer Lives"
Maybe there is a possibility to have some scans from old newspaper articles etc. on this site.
Andy
16-03-2016 02:16 (GMT)
I understand that the American TV show rather sensationalized the events and may well be highly inaccurate. But what do you make of the possibility that the Russian Military may well have been as the site as early as the 6th of February, several days before the bodies and tent were officially found?
Objective
05-03-2016 15:11 (GMT)
Disclaimer: have not not studied details carefully However, theory noone has concluded just yet: 1)infrasound due to high winds/vortices makes leader THINK there is an avalanche (it doesnt matter how experienced they are, it is dark and even the possibility of avalnche could compel the order to run). 2) lack of light as it was evening and panic from possible avalanche results in non stop movement in one direction. The fairly better dressed group make it further before stopping, the others stop at the treeline and being freezing, decide to make a fire as quickly as possible; 3) for two (hypothermia sets in and clothes are removed due to burning sensation) and other three realize that the avalanche probably did not occur and it should be safer to return to tent and grab clothes before suffering same fate as the two hypothermic; 4) on the way they face howling winds and freeze to death before making it; 5) the other 4 that make it further unknowingly run into a ravine that maybhave been 25ft deep and suffer fractures and blunt force trauma as they fall; 6) being stuck there and frozen to death the elements (partial mummification) and wildlife result in missing tongue, lips etc; 7) the orange lights are in fact ufo (for argument sake we will accept the fact that there are ufo/aliens that visit us). However, if this is the case, then probability is that they visit our planet often and in different places at different times and as such, could simply have been a coincidence that their visiting this time happened to be when these 9 unfortunate souls were caught in a terrible tragedy
Amber Kelly
24-02-2016 22:20 (GMT)
This is a really great collection of information on the incident. I am working on a podcast and a play dedicated to The Dyatlov Pass Incident: http://unknowncompellingforce.podbean.com/ Would it be possible for you to share your image files in high quality format via a file share? Thanks in advance and thanks for creating the site
Nigel Evans
19-02-2016 19:43 (GMT)
Great site. Ball lightning is a possible explanation - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_lightning (note the reports of explosions and fatalities) with the cold and wild animals doing the rest.
Dee
31-01-2016 19:55 (GMT)
Great site. It contains lots of photographs that I haven't seen before. I would really like someone to get to the truth of this mystery.
Me
14-01-2016 17:24 (GMT)
They were obviously murdered somehow.
SP
16-11-2015 11:31 (GMT)
This is the best, and most informative site on the subject. Concise, and lacking in the usual crazy-talk.
Ladies And Gents, This Is Your Admin Speaking
On behalf of the forum crew, let me welcome you aboard Dyatlov Pass Forum. The forum is a spin off from this message board. We’ve just hit our cruising altitude of 3000 posts and I have turned off the ability to leave messages, which means you are now free to move about the forum. However, for your own benefit, please register in case you encounter any unexpected facts or thoughts you might want to comment on or share with us.
Though I’ve turned off the maintenance mode, please note the “no cursing” light will remain on throughout the session, in compliance with FA (Forum Administration) regulations. You may not litter the boards and mods prohibit tampering with the spam detectors. Feel free to babble, tattle and preach on, though. Those aren’t forum crimes. Not yet!
On behalf of your forum crew, please, sit back and enjoy your trip.
You can comment to this message here http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=30.0
http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=29.0
You join yet.... Good. Lets do this. Ready when you are.
http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Rakitin-moderator.png
I call BS my friend. I told you several times, thats what general discussion is for... There is no isolation.
You are simply being a pissy-pants because its not called 'The BL Board" and you know it. FYI, I will fully represent the BL theory for you in the BL and UFO section.. No worries mate, nobody 'needs' to cater to you and kiss your royal behind. You had your chance...Know what Im saying?
Your not a fan of people having somewhere to discuss and develop NON BL theories. Fact
Write a book and make a movie while you're at it.
I don't think you realize that if you create a thread... You can change the original post at ANY TIME. I addition, if you were the moderator of the BL section, welp... You can move crap around all ya want in thar.
Again... General Discussion is where you will likely see alot of discussion. The individual (many merged) are where you go to talk only bl with your bl buddies, if you think that the bl section will be a ghost town.... I guess the theory needs improvement?
Its simple. Create a master post laying out your entire theory, sticky it so its at the top for all to see and never goes to page 2 etc. Modify it all ya want.... Lock it... Whatever!
Go to the General discussion board for mixing, matching, new theory ideas, combining, debating.... you know...GENERAL DISCUSSION.
Why would you be intimidated by other theories having their own discussion area where people can take a break from BL and expand their own ideas without heckling?
Since you are registered already, can you recount in a post the latest еxpose of the BL theory so I can update the site and we can have it at the beginning of the discussion. Don't think about the structure. Look how it's gonna look in a year time. http://taina.li
That's because the "THEORIES" section should be updatable by the nominated mentor.
Currently it's all too clumsy. I've refined the BL theory several times since that section was last changed.
That's how i would want it, a general discussion area and then a read only area for each theory to capture the argument todate. Having a seperate discussion area per theory is going to make things look lonely imo.
@Lyndasez - the interview is in "Journey to Dyatlov Pass, Keith McClosky".
#2 Call me crazy, but I don't think it was ever the owners intention to have a 4 mile long discussion/debate on a single page. Rather for it to be.... For comments. Namely on the site. As in.... "Hey, nice job and very informative", or "this is a great site with lots of information" etc.
#3 if you have input (always welcome) on the board structure, perhaps the place to discuss it is..... On the forum. Just a crazy thought.
In fact, I may recommend to Admin that this comment page be locked up. It's a vulnerability as a whole having no verification or registration and has diverged greatly from what I believe was the original intention.
Re: forum
Wouldn’t a simple COVERUP topic address notions of true or false since we have only intuition to go on?
Also, where is this Ivanov bossmans interview located? Hibinaud? Name?
**thanks for the clarification on rav3.
If true - then it rules out most of the theories, you are left with things the state must coverup- military accident, natural phenomena useful to the military (like BL), aliens perhaps.
If false then all theories are possible.
Kolevatov body (upper left) was found right next to Zolotaryov's as if the latter was carrying or protecting him. Tibo's body was positioned aside of them lower downstream
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (p. 76). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
Because the BL didn't more from the tent, hence the hot spot???
"You punked out ...not me."
dream on darling
The other forum I started a few years ago has 38,560 Posts in 3,297 Topics by 611 Members.
@KMM,
Where’s the action?
Went there ...and got stuck somewhere...
Just register there, It still gathering members, it will pick up
Where’s the action?
Went there ...and got stuck somewhere...
I will. For now check the maps I have amounted here http://dyatlovpass.com/maps
http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php
Make a good informative post in a section, and you may find it stickied at the top of that board.
You really need to get a grip man. Just saying.
from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loose_cannon_(naval)
A loose cannon refers to a cannon which gets dislocated and moves about randomly on the decks of a battleship, creating a hazard to crew and equipment.
A famous literary depiction of a loose cannon appears in Victor Hugo's 1874 novel "Ninety-Three", whose plot is set during the French Revolution. In a well-known episode, a ship of anti-revolutionary French Royalists is sailing towards Brittany, to aid the anti-revolutionary Chouannerie rebellion. While at sea, a sailor fails to properly secure his cannon, which rolls out of control and damages the ship. The sailor risks his life to secure the cannon and save the ship. The Marquis de Lantenac, leader of the Royalists, awards the man a medal for his bravery and then executes him (without trial) for failing in his duty.
--- nice guys, those French ---
The widespread publication of Hugo's book, both in the original French and in translation to various other languages, helped make the concept of a loose cannon more well-known. It has eventually developed a metaphorical meaning relating to a person who is acting in a wild and unpredictable manner and who constitutes as much danger to his or her own side as to the enemy.
-- or could be a danger to the new forum --
Like I said... Its easy to have a General discussion board for basic theory talk. The subsections for individual victims simply hold relative information and a place to discuss them individually.... Thats why its condensed with subsections for each and will not dominate the index. The theories as of right now are not in subsections.
Basically you have a small rules and board information section, individual victim section..... Then all the theories. As of right now its very basic and not nearly as crazy as the one I linked to. That was simply an example of how its a dedicated DPI forum and not just a topic within a board of many other things... Like your two links.
Relax. Dont crap a Volvo just yet.
#1. Its more secure
#2. Page load speeds will be instant because there wont be a 3 mile long blog type single thread
#3. Its organized
#4. Relative information are easily stickied in each section for quick reference
#5. Pictures and vids are displayed directly within the thread and uploading is free without joining an image hosting site.
#6. There is a full blown messaging system to privately message other users.
#7. You can set an email notification of new replies to any thread you choose... Like ones your most interested in.
#8. A full blown search function... Who doesn't like that?!?!
#9. Rules. John Wolfe may have a very hard time with this one. Just sayin.
I can literally go on and on as to why a dedicated forum is.... A giod thing. Winking
That sounds OK to me!
Basically you have a small rules and board information section, individual victim section..... Then all the theories. As of right now its very basic and not nearly as crazy as the one I linked to. That was simply an example of how its a dedicated DPI forum and not just a topic within a board of many other things... Like your two links.
Relax. Dont crap a Volvo just yet.
#1. Its more secure
#2. Page load speeds will be instant because there wont be a 3 mile long blog type single thread
#3. Its organized
#4. Relative information are easily stickied in each section for quick reference
#5. Pictures and vids are displayed directly within the thread and uploading is free without joining an image hosting site.
#6. There is a full blown messaging system to privately message other users.
#7. You can set an email notification of new replies to any thread you choose... Like ones your most interested in.
#8. A full blown search function... Who doesn't like that?!?!
#9. Rules. John Wolfe may have a very hard time with this one. Just sayin.
I can literally go on and on as to why a dedicated forum is.... A giod thing.
O man one section leads to a subsection of a gazillion categories...can’t even navigate ...1 or 2 measly replies ea...oof!
I give up...
The admin is going to design their own theme, but this is a full blown forum, not just a blog section within a site.
More like http://taina.li/
{Havent seen a list/structure idea from anyone else as of yet. }
Thanks...
I prefer this: https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/t.php?t=670317
Anyone else?
If you sectioning off each of those theory categories into the forum?
I can easily combine my theory with 3 or 4 of those single catergories, an one not listed, not going to each section to discuss....
Genesis:.
Rules.
Introductions.
Board Information .
Victims Discussion:.
YURI DOROSHENKO.
YURI KRIVONISCHENKO.
IGOR DYATLOV.
ZINAIDA KOLMOGOROVA.
RUSTEM SLOBODIN.
LYUDMILA DUBININA.
SEMYON ZOLOTARYOV.
ALEXANDER KOLEVATOV.
NIKOLAI THIBEAUX.
Dyatlov Pass: (Factual Information).
Materials of 1959.
Photography.
Case Files.
Maps and charts.
Diaries and letters.
Events before the incident.
Materials Modern:.
Publications / Media
Video / Photography
Theories Discussion:.
KGB agents.
Infrasound.
Secret Missile launches.
Lightning strike / Ball lightning.
Avalanche.
Shrooms.
Mansi natives.
Mistaken Identity .
UFO.
Yeti / Snowman .
Teleportation .
The stove.
Gravity fluctuation.
Club House:.
Members Lounge
Just messing with ya Nigel
{Basic stuffs.}
Sweet!
Could you clarify - - is this a pic to show ravine depth or yet another pit? Thanks
http://news.theparanormal.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/dyatlov-pass-ravine.jpg
Something tells me the forum will be simple and have no spam adds.
Its not like there is a trader section, vender section, feedback system, chatter box, retail section etc.
All Im currently doing is adjusting a ton of settings so it will work properly.
Also uploading several mods so that pictures are 100% up-loadable right from the posting window without having to join a photo hosting site and uploading it to there first. Also a Youtube mod so vids will play directly within the thread etc.
Basic stuffs.
"Will our past comments still be there, or will we start off new ?"
Not sure what you mean... past comments still be on this page? Its up to the admin whether or not they keep this pages contents.
Can someone answer who is who, left to right in this photo?
http://gipotezi.ru/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/ruchei.jpg
I’ve seen posts that put Tibi at right because they see 2 watches...???? Thanks.
Don't stop talking now... It will be a few days or more until the forum is ready.
Will our past comments still be there, or will we start off new ?
{Ditto rabid reindeer section.}
Don’t Go There... It knocked your BL theory outta the park...you couldn’t answer the heavy question — why did they run and stay away. You punked out ...not me.
I also added if you want an espionage theory I’d do that too...so enough with the talkin big. ;c}
If posters may be so bold as to weigh in on the forum construction ...I’d like to add my 2 cents.
Most of the DP forums that have 2”avatars & register info, fancy graphics, a gazillion categories, and bazillion photos clogging pages are largely defunct.
This comment section has the latest and most comments I’ve come across, due it’s simplicity— easy navigation, doesn’t hurt your eyes, can see many comments at once.
So my vote goes for simplicity.... :c)
Can be whatever you like.
http://image.ibb.co/d6hXqb/dpi2.png
Admin has email
I would recommend comrade Nigel as moderator of the hand to hand combat section as it wont need a lot of attention.
Have you considered an actual discussion forum?
IVANOV:
Ivanov unleash attack-pterodactyl on peasant hikers.
KMM:
SIR: have you concidered a pterodactyl laying an egg in front of the tent thus creating the warm spot ?
You know what they say about opinions.... He had several apparently, and UFO was at the top.
@IVANOV. I 'get' the comic relief, and its needed imho. No idea why you would be censored.
This is the one I've read...
(Internet version *)
© A.I.Rakitin, 2010-2011
© "Mysterious crimes of the past", 2010-2011.
I think both of those are combined in link I posted
Which was expanded? I scan them to see if they're headed where I'm going...
This is the one I've read...
(Internet version *)
© A.I.Rakitin, 2010-2011
© "Mysterious crimes of the past", 2010-2011.
Your post was by the same guy so I didn't inspect...
I'm not sure some of that wasn't expanded on and added by someone else
@KMM,
"If you are reading that long winded essay, it goes into US overflights over Russia. Too much so really IMO."
Haha, I've sped read the internet version. Yes, hopefully that guy must've been paid by the word.
That's the guy who said they were transferring radioactive material--yes?
Yes
I think in the end the military/special forces theory fits best – and we all know that this is not the first time someone comes to that conclusion. It is clear that at least some of the victims suffered major injuries, which only can be explained by the exposure to a tremendous/ explosive force. Who is in charge of explosives? The military.
And it seems that there was a lot of cover up done afterwards, to disguise the truth. And who is very experienced and good in covering something up? The military.
I think most of us would agree, that we don?t have an unlucky accident here, but a murder case. (Who has the license to kill? The military).
And after the homicide the military had enough time to cover their tracks, as the rescue team arrived after more than 20 days at the crime scene. And the rescue team was at first not aware that they had to deal with a crime scene. This became clear only after 2 months, when the more violently hurt bodies where found. All the evidence that may have been there initially was long ago gone. …and closer we will not get to the truth, as much as we try. We will never exactly know why the hikers had to die, nor what exactly made them leave their tent, nor what exactly happened that night - as much as we whish. There is only one way to know more than we already do: it may be that somewhere in forgotten secret archives (of the russain military maybe ;-) the report of that disastrous night including the scensored pieces is kept and hopefully released one day – but I doubt this will happen. Howsoever: In my opinion most of the other theories don?t fit and are contradictory (including ball lightning, drugs/shrooms, diseases, avalanche, infrasound, yeti…).
"If you are reading that long winded essay, it goes into US overflights over Russia. Too much so really IMO."
Haha, I've sped read the internet version. Yes, hopefully that guy must've been paid by the word.
That's the guy who said they were transferring radioactive material--yes?
:-)
I don't think you will get many arguments on a coverup. Just the reasons for it .
If you are reading that long winded essay, it goes into US overflights over Russia. Too much so really IMO.
"A coverup DOES NOT, have to have anything to do with BL !"
I strongly agree.
----
@Nigel,
I doubt the interest in the eye witness accounts of lights was due to harnessing BL.
Due to the nuclear test ban its clear to me the Russians were paranoid of American spy planes or balloons ....being those "lights."
@Lyndasez - well if the interview with Evgeniy Okishev is to be believed there was a coverup ordered at a high level after the criminal investigation was underway, the clear order was to falsify the report as an accident whilst the real one was confiscated. From memory the second highest officer in the Russian criminal prosecution service travelled 400 miles to personally attend the autopsies on the first five bodies over three days. Gives you a feeling that the pathologist had the outcomes written for him.
So if you embrace that interview as genuine there are few options. BL still fits as it could be the Soviets were investigating trying to weaponise it. They could have even been inducing it perhaps, hence the several eye witness accounts in that period...
A coverup DOES NOT, have to have anything to do with BL !
So if you embrace that interview as genuine there are few options. BL still fits as it could be the Soviets were investigating trying to weaponise it. They could have even been inducing it perhaps, hence the several eye witness accounts in that period...
Are you saying your BL theory has changed? Now you are onto weaponised BL? Not quite reading you.
When you were quoting "Don't Go There," you demanded facts from me believing in no cover up, now you've gone full circle???
I can go full on espionage...
BL, you're omitting to dial in what we now know about the coverup. It had to have been something very sensitive. That now rules out a huge number of possibilities including rabid reindeer and food poisoning btw.
My money is on either the military testing or interested in weaponising BL. That Kapitsa was working in this field at the same time and some of the group were working in nuclear resonates with me, they would have heard his theory for BL and people would be talking about it as a solution to the mansi siberian lights perhaps. So some intersects there.
Accidental deaths from military testing - well i see it as a coverup being launched late in the day after the state's legal arm found the first five and began an investigation. So i discount the tidying up theory, whatever it was didn't leave traces other than as reported.
Do you have something to add to the conversation other then but-hurt?
"They acted like people exposed to a high order Toxin that effected their CNS. Like LSD , nerve agent, or several food born toxins would have. Did anyone run test on the Kasha for Ergot"
They did, but the file/results are conveniently left out of the case files.
" Both strips were free from emulsion damage but there was a small section of underdeveloped film on the ten frame strip due to the layers of film getting stuck together in the developing tank. The most glaring item to begin with, in the examination of Zolotarev’s film, was that nine frames were missing"
Missing...how? Cut, unused???
The rest is gibberish, what are we looking at negs, photos of negs....what?
And if they photos have anything to do with those on this site...look yourself....says damaged.
Btw. You can't help but get emulsion damage if strips stuck together...double talk.
@Nigel Evans
"also there was no blood or even signs of a struggle at the tent.
Just guessing that there weren't any animal footprints either."
----------
Tent was not orderly ...entrance was littered with items.
Zinas face was bloodied, her back bruised, numerous signs of cuts an bruises on others...
Tracks: Snowed over...the 2 pair of men's boots left no tracks as well.
Umm, you're supposed to answer this as well, BL vs Deranged animal!
Just guessing that there weren't any animal footprints either.
"It just doesn't fit the facts, they left the tent to walk down the slope half undressed leaving knives and axes behind. Same with the yeti theory."
Yeti?! I never said yeti, that's within the realm of your fantasies. Keep it simple.
Do you have time and light to gather weapons and clothes if an animal pounced your tent and injured people?! The surprise attack alone would unnerve you. Next question?
It just doesn't fit the facts, they left the tent to walk down the slope half undressed leaving knives and axes behind. Same with the yeti theory, you'd get your boots on and take all your weapons.
@Ray - the biggest argument against hallucinating et al is that they all move with the same purpose which is difficult to explain with natural poisoning, affecting all nine the same - quite improbable. Then they make quite rational choices, leaving a flashlight halfway down turned on (presumed to be a beacon to assist the return) collecting firewood, stripping bodies for extra clothing, building seats in a den (at least, if not building the den entirely).
I'll put my rabid/deranged animal theory against your BL anyday, the statistics are with me....too simple for you?
-----------------------
First case of rabies reported in wild animal in Interior Alaska Tim Mowry/tmowry@newsminer.com; ... There have been cases of rabies in caribou and moose, ...
Moscow, Feb 13 (IANS/RIA Novosti) Two residents of Moscow have reportedly been hospitalized while 12 of their relatives are undergoing treatment after coming into contact with a rabid moose.
Rabid deer confirmed in Cherokee County, N.C. - Carolina ...
Rabies is a disease, ... elk and moose causing a characteristic spongy degeneration of the brain of infected animals resulting in emaciation, ...
Rabid Wolf Attacks Hunter | Alaska Public Media
A Moose Hunter is considering himself lucky to be alive after being attacked by a rabid wolf. Rodrick Phillip, age 35 of Kongignak, was hunting on the ...
mad moose?
crazy cat?
delirious dog?
barmy bat?
potty penguin?
Good question. The answer has to be that as a true professional he did and they kept them. Valentin Yakimenko's study of the group's negatives established that there are several (nine?) frames missing from that roll, the one producing the 30x. Maybe we only know of these pictures due to a failure to recognise their content.
Secrecy would of went out of the window once BL showed up !
"Maybe, but why would these same 2 veer off from the group then rejoin them later?"
I don't think those are their (rav3) prints, think that was 2 yuris.... They (3) could've gone so fast tumbled or what have you, the warm feet left the prints. That's why I went with the simple rabid animal, to explain to Nigel, how his theory falters. Disoriented animal drawn to light pounces tent. They creep downhill, Igor tells 2 to gather wood an build fire, animal lingers, animal makes sudden movement Luddy heads for the ravine, animal takes after....very simple but one in many...
@KMM,
Here's how I see it with the 3 in question.
Firstly, you don't suit up to take a pee. So, I think before lights out, SZ & Tibi went out for a smoke.
Maybe, but why would these same 2 veer off from the group then rejoin them later?
Here's how I see it with the 3 in question.
Firstly, you don't suit up to take a pee. So, I think before lights out, SZ & Tibi went out for a smoke. (2 folded blankets amongst the rumpled)
Alex may have had to pee and joined them....they are panicked by something, alert others and high-tail down hill for cover.
ALEX---->"a ski jacket of black paper on a zipper, unbuttoned, right and left breast pockets and cuffs unbuttoned, the buttons are intact. The left sleeve of the jacket on the upper side has fabric defects in the area of ??25 x 12 x 13 cm, the edges of the fabric in the indicated place are adorned. On the right elbow of the jacket there are insignificant tissue burdens 7-8 cm long. Above the jacket is a brown sweatshirt with sweatshirts, then under it is a second gray sweater, a worn, cotton cowboy in a blue, red and black cage, with two breast pockets. On the right pocket is an English safety pin, it contained a flat key from the lock, the collar and cuffs of the cowboy are unbuttoned. "
Native shirt with fleece, pale gray, worn. A canvas trousers are a khaki overall on straps with an elastic band. In the right pockets of the trousers a soggy box of matches, at the bottom trousers on metal buckles with tears, beneath them are ski trousers of a blue bikey with side clasps, in the pocket of their handkerchief. On the legs woolen socks are dirty, white, homemade with knots of burning, brown cotton socks. On his left leg are three brown cotton socks, under them on the ankle joint, a gauze bandage. Pants gray-gray paired with a shirt, blue satin panties"
He didn't have boots.
I've wondered about the 2 that went off by themselves, later rejoining to rest. Read it was the 2 best dressed, NTB and SZ
O Cripes, more reading. Just kidding, thanks for sharing!
"link to A.I. Rakitin's essay, ALL 30 chapters of it!"
There was a moratorium on nuclear tests between '58-'60. However, they could've stumbled on tainted aftermath of previous tests. Hence, the 3 yr ban on traversing the area. (Cleanup)
To me this isn't the simplest of explanations. Too many variables to account for.
Why we're the 3 at the ravine dressed warmest?
No burns attributable to lightning strikes.
The victims panicked behavior to a natural phenomena.
No evidence of unexplained solid ice, craters, surface damage.
Why was the first to die, the 2 by the fire and so forth.
Plus if we want to include tearing of tent from inside?
If I were to, off the top of my head think of a simple reason to panic it would be a rabid reindeer pounced the tent stayed awhile there and butted the RAV4, left others alone to venture back to tent....
But I see your starting to think of other possibilities. Thats a good thang.
http://www.interesmir.ru/smert-idushhaya-po-sledu-glava-1/
But given the coverup here from Party HQ the favourite theory now has to be either military accident of highly sensitive weapon technology (neutron weapons might be a good avenue as there's a connection with tritium and beta emitters) or accidental encounter with a natural phenomena that was being looked at by the military. Whatever it was it had to be kept a state secret. This wasn't mansi hunters et al and if the state wanted them silenced they would have just disappeared. So it looks like a genuine accident that brought in the law agencies and then the state woke up to what was happening late in the day and ordered a coverup, confiscated the prosecutor's file ordering a dummy one to be created.
Interesting that Pytor Kapitsa (author of the microwave cavity hypothesis for BL) was working on high energy microwave plasmas during this period - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyotr_Kapitsa - "He invented high power microwave generators (1950–1955)".
[ http://image.ibb.co/gLsKG5/EnV6O.jpg .
I do NOT trust these loggers!]
No, and given their goals Igor and company probably gave them lots of details of the hike.
- I -
Goals and objectives:
1. Acquaintance with the nature and economy of the Northern Urals.?
2. Conducting conversations and reports among the population.?
3. Increase the athletic skills of the participants in the trek.?
4. Study of the depth of freezing of soils according to surveys and observations of residents of the Northern Urals.
If you know...I've read through the case files and saw no account of folding shovels recovered. I miss something?
( if the explosion was small enough and in the snowbank , or even just in the ravine, there'd be little other damage it would direct the blast along the ravine and straight up. If they had been permitted to return for a site inspection in the summer maybe they would have seen something, snapped saplings perhaps.) wwwwhaaaaat happened to this???===> "The theory suggests that the ravine lightning strike hit close to the den and vaporized a substantial quantity of stream water, snow and ice can produce 300,000 amps and temperatures several times hotter than the surface of the sun, e.g. 30,000C) creating an explosion amplified by the confines of the ravine that threw the den and it's occupants"
Abandon ship! Theory is sinking!!
Good job! ;c}
(The mechanism of damage formation is as follows: a blow, compression from the right to the left with a solid blunt object with a traumatic surface comparable in size to the chest of Zolotarev.). <===A SHOVEL or from the look of that 13ft, immaculate den, a backhoe...
That's were Rustem, Zina and Igor get their hands and fists scratched etc digging them out.
"What happens when your standing in a creek of boulders next to a wall of pack ice when it collapses/slides/shifts/settles into the ravine? "
You're guaranteed to get broken limbs. A key feature of this injury profile is the strong crushing force required to snap ribs that doesn't break limbs, or even a collar bone.
#1 they were not in the den.
#2 plenty of evidence suggesting the den didn't exist in the first place.
I still for the life of me do not understand why you think an explosion 'had' to have happen. Your a physics guy... What happens when your standing in a creek of boulders next to a wall of pack ice when it collapses/slides/shifts/settles into the ravine? An explosion does not have to exist for this to happen.
Correct but the chunk of the den wall pushed into her chest by an explosion outside could be. Then the roof den collapsing gives you bi phasic.
Explosion card reinstated.
@KMM - if the explosion was small enough and in the snowbank , or even just in the ravine, there'd be little other damage it would direct the blast along the ravine and straight up. If they had been permitted to return for a site inspection in the summer maybe they would have seen something, snapped saplings perhaps.
I just read a couple pages on this. I didn't know much about it
"The expert, Vozrozhdenniy interprets petty-hemorrhage as a spot of Wischnewsky. But at the same time, in the stomach of Dyatlov, "about 100 cubic cm of liquid mucous mass of a brownish reddish color", "the mucous membrane of the stomach is lilac-red, swollen," and "the lips are covered with gore".
Most likely, Dyatlov had vomiting before his death with an admixture of blood. The source of bleeding is the gastric mucosa. What caused such a vomiting - poisoning or abnormality of the stomach - can not be established, since there is no case in the materials of the forensic chemical and histological examination." .
"5. In each of the nine acts, the Vozrozhdenniy writes that pieces of internal organs are taken for forensic chemical research. But in the case materials there is not a single result of the conducted forensic chemical research, which should at least show the presence or absence of alcohol. But, a little nuance - to determine the alcohol take blood and urine. Vozrozhdenniy points out that parts of internal organs are taken for a forensic chemical study. This means that he directed the bodies for a forensic chemical study, not only for alcohol, but for the presence of poisons." .
"It is very alarming that the results of the forensic histological examination of the first five corpses are absent in the criminal case! And, as our expert suggested, it is possible that the results of that histology were intentionally concealed. Special attention: all 9 corpses take pieces of internal organs for forensic chemical examination. But there is not a single result in the case materials! And this gives us reason to suspect that chemical experts could find traces in bodies, for example, of some sort of combat poison." .
Poison, poison..... LOL.
And you thought I was WAY out in left field for suggesting a possible ergot poisoning.
"At the same time, there was no system to free the tent from snow. First they took out a few stale blankets, then buckets, a stove, two or THREE SACKS OF BISCUITS , shoes and other things. Things were stacked in backpacks, and dragged the tent to the search engine camp.
Naturally, after such manipulations on the tent, sections and torn pieces could appear." .
"The tent had an ice ax, an extra pair of skis. On the tent was a Chinese lantern in the unlit state. 9 backpacks, 9 pairs of skis were found in the tent, all of them were under the tent floor, 8 pairs of shoes, 3.5 pairs of boots, quilted jackets and MANY BISCUITS, half a sack of sugar, a large number of concentrates, cereals, soups, etc. , cocoa, axes, saw, cameras, diaries of students, documents and money." .
"Apparently the group was in the final stage of dressing and preparing for the night at the time of the incident. In the near half found a few crusts from the loin. There are rusks scattered all over the tent." .
Rusks...... https://www.google.com/search?q=rusks&rlz=1C1AOHY_enUS710US711&oq=rusks&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.2261j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 .
So I state AGAIN.... never crap on someones theory without proper consideration of possibility.
http://image.ibb.co/n6KMUQ/meYZP.jpg .
http://image.ibb.co/gLsKG5/EnV6O.jpg .
I do NOT trust these loggers!
An explosion that left no BLAST pattern, as in melted snow, felled trees.
The forensic expert and criminalist expert Churkina refused to sign off on the official autopsy, but Ivanov signed..... AS OF TODAY THE AUTOPSY REPORTS ON RAV4 ARE INVALID AS TWO REQUIRED SIGNATURES ARE ABSENT! .
https://image.ibb.co/dFTBya/sme.jpg
in support of Black Dahlia: people are always seeing LIGHTS in Hollywood.
Last time I looked, a blast wave is neither solid, nor blunt.
Explosion card denied.
Funny... that isn't what ANY of the medical examiners have said.
YURI DOROSHENKO.
1) With such a transformation of the brain, it is impossible to see the swelling of the meninges! .
2) The presence of dark blood is not a sign of death from hypothermia, on the contrary, when supercooled, the blood is bright red due to the high content of oxyhemoglobin.
3) The resulted statement about a frostbite of fingers of extremities is not proved. There is nothing about this in the text of the study.
4) These circumstances (see General Comment, point 3) allow us to say that Doroshenko's death came as a result of hypothermia, only in a hypothetical form.
Yuri Krivonishenko.
1) It's strange, but Krivonischenko's craniocerebral trauma is only in the description of the act, and in conclusion about the reasons for his death there is none. But this damage was formed as a result of a blow (or blows) by a solid blunt object (or objects) in the right temporal and occipital areas of the head of Yuri. It can not be ruled out that the trauma could be obtained by falling from the standing position and by hitting the right temporal and occipital areas of the head against a hard blunt object. With such a trauma there could be hemorrhages in the brain, but the disintegration of the brain substance in Krivonishchenko destroyed all the informative signs.
2) Again the same rake. In the description of the act about the bite is written, and in the conclusion about death - not a word. But this one line gives reason to believe that Krivonishenko himself bitten himself by the finger, snatching a piece of leather. What does it mean? Perhaps Yuri tried to restrain the cry with severe pain. Perhaps, it was important that someone at that moment did not hear it.
3)I can assume that these "wounds" - cuts - were formed from a sharp object. Knife, glass, blade - anything.
4) It is doubtful that these abrasions were formed when the person fell face down on the snow. Then the nose and the superciliary arches would be buried, and there would be more scratches on the forehead. These abrasions of Krivonischenko from blows with a solid blunt object (or hitting against similar objects) at an acute angle.
5) Suppose, second-degree burns can be obtained by negligence, falling asleep at the fire. But third-degree burns are charring (!) Of soft tissues. To achieve this effect, you need to keep your feet in the fire for a long time. Get in a dream such a burn is impossible, burns already 1-st degree cause severe pain and awakening. In this case, third-degree burns could be formed if a person was in deep depression, for example, into intoxication (he did not feel pain or could not pull his leg off, - Auth.) Next to a strong fire.
6) Wounds on the nose are caused by animals and after the death of Yuri. Otherwise, there would be traces of bleeding.
IGOR DIATLOV.
1) At the autopsy, Igor Dyatlov's internal organs were in rotting state. Therefore, it is incorrect to assert that the internal organs are full of blood, as their structure is modified by postmortem processes. And the presence of dark blood is not a sign of death from hypothermia, on the contrary, when supercooled, the blood is bright red due to the high content of oxyhemoglobin.
2) Most likely, Dyatlov had vomiting before his death with an admixture of blood. The source of bleeding is the gastric mucosa. What caused such a vomiting - poisoning or abnormality of the stomach - can not be established, since there is no case in the materials of the forensic chemical and histological examination.
3) But these damage from falling on the snow will not get. They could appear from circular compression in the ankle, for example as a result of binding by a rope.
4) Obviously, shortly before his death, Igor had to hit with a brush, clenched into a fist, over a hard object.
ZINAIDA KOLMOGOROVA.
1)And these injuries the girl received, most likely, from punching on a solid object. When falling on the snow with an emphasis on the fists, there would be other damage.
2) It was formed as a result of a blow by a solid blunt object, which had an elongated shape (stick, branch of a tree, etc.).
RUSTEM SLOBODIN.
1) With such a transformation of the brain, it is impossible to see edema of the meninges.
2) This trauma was formed as a result of a blow by a solid blunt object or from a blow to the head about such an object.
3) This assertion is unreasonable. There was blood under the dura mater. And this gives all grounds to say that Slobodin had a subdural hemorrhage (hemorrhage under the dura mater). According to available data it is impossible to exclude the onset of Slobodin's death as a result of craniocerebral trauma.
4) Traces of secretions of parched blood formed as a result of a trauma to the nose.
5) These abrasions could be formed as a result of the action of a solid blunt object, as well as the impact of a fist clenched on a solid object.
LYUDMILA DUBININA.
1) It should be noted that the fractures of the ribs were formed biphasic. But there is not a word about this in the act of the Renaissance. In the first phase, as a result of a blow to the right side of the thorax by a solid blunt object with a traumatic surface comparable in size to the length of the rib cage, there was a fracture of the right lobes II, III, IV, and V in the mid-axillary line. In the second phase, as a result of compression of the thoracic anteriorly backward with a hard blunt object, there was a fracture of the ribs II, III, IV, V on the right along the midclavicular line, and fracture of the II, III, IV, V, VI, VII ribs on the left along the midclavicular line. In the same phase, a hemorrhage in the region of the sternum was formed, and a bruise of the heart also occurred.
2)Neither during the throw, nor during the fall, marked damage to the chest by Dubinin could not have been formed. Similar injuries occur when rolling through the chest of a massive blunt object. For example, breast trauma, similar to those detected in Dubinina, is characteristic of a traffic accident - a car crossing the chest with the victim lying on his back.
3) Apparently, Lyudmila hit hard on a hard blunt object, or hit her with a similar object.
4) It is not clear that the expert considers them normal mobility, because in norm, with a whole bone, they are immovable in general. Why are they mobile (pathology of the structure, fracture, if fracture, then where) in the Act is not described. If the bone was actually broken, then it is impossible to tell whether this fracture is alive or not, since the Act does not describe the nature of the soft tissues surrounding the bone. The study of the hyoid bone was not carried out.
SEMYON ZOLOTARYOV.
1) Fractures in the ribs of Zolotarev have been intravital, as evidenced by the results of a histological examination (hemorrhages in the soft tissues - Auth.) And the presence of blood in the pleural cavity. The mechanism of damage formation is as follows: a blow, compression from the right to the left with a solid blunt object with a traumatic surface comparable in size to the chest of Zolotarev. To break thus the ribs, falling on a flat solid surface, is unreal.
2) Both Zolotarev and Dubinina had similar injuries posthumously, as a result of damage to the corpse by animals.
ALEXANDER KOLEVATOV.
1) This conclusion is groundless and in no way follows from the results of the forensic medical examination. There are no characteristic signs: no scarlet stains, no scarlet blood (just scarlet, not dark), Wischnewsky spots, and a number of microscopic signs.
2) The deformation of the neck in the text of the act itself is not described in the following. Not specified and the nature of deformation - congenital or acquired. What exactly is deformed and how. And according to the available description it is also impossible to determine - the deformation of the neck in the lifetime or posthumous.
NIKOLAI TIBO-BRINOLS.
1) This trauma was formed as a result of a blow to the right temporal region with a blunt solid object with a limited traumatic surface that does not exceed the dimensions of the lesion. Stone, iron, or something else that is much stronger than the bones of the skull.
2) This again formed as a result of the impact of a solid blunt object. Direction of impact from front to back towards the anteroideal surface of the right shoulder at an angle close to the straight.
3) In a histological study there is no record of the study of this bone. But there is such a record - "Rib - Between the bone beams blood in a state of putrefaction." This suggests that Vozrozhdenniy at the time of the autopsy revealed a fracture of the rib and took it for histological examination, which showed the intravital nature of the fracture. But in the text of the Act there is not a word about rib fractures in Thibault Brignoles.
GENERAL REMARKS.
All the inspection protocols for the location of the detection of corpses and forensic medical examinations are made, roughly speaking, hackneyed:.
1. The examination was conducted without the participation of a physician-specialist in the field of forensic medicine, which is a violation of the procedure for examining corpses at the place of their detection. The presence and localization of cadaveric spots and the state of the skin in general are not described, the visible lesions on the body are only partially described. Clothes and the position of corpses are described very superficially.
2. Forensic shooting of the scene of the incident was not carried out, the photos are not very informative, closer to the artistic shooting than to the forensic photography.
3. The conclusions of the first five acts of forensic examination were written as a photocopy:.
"... Doroshenko's death (or Krivonischenko, Kolmogorova, Dyatlov, Slobodin) was caused by low temperature, as evidenced by edema of the meninges, a sharp fullness of the internal organs, an overflow of the dark blood of the heart cavities, the presence of Wischnewsky spots on the stomach mucosa, frostbite fingers of the extremities ... ".
4. In each of the nine acts, the expert indicates that the pieces of internal organs are taken for histological examination, but the results in the criminal case are only in the last four - Thibo-Brignol NV, Kolevatova AS, Zolotareva AA and Dubinina LA It can be assumed that the histology of the first five corpses was deliberately hidden, since it was clearly more informative than the corpses found two months later.
5. In each of the nine acts, the Vozrozhdenniy writes that pieces of internal organs are taken for forensic chemical research. But in the case materials there is not a single result of the conducted forensic chemical research, which should at least show the presence or absence of alcohol. But, a little nuance - to determine the alcohol take blood and urine. Vozrozhdenniy points out that parts of internal organs are taken for a forensic chemical study. This means that he directed the bodies for a forensic chemical study, not only for alcohol, but for the presence of poisons.
6. And, finally, the arrangement of cadaveric spots does not coincide with the position of some corpses at the time of their detection. Rustem Slobodin and Yuri Doroshenko found face down, and the cadaver spots the expert described on the back surface of the trunk. The same description is also given by Zinaida Kolmogorova, who, as indicated in the examination report, found lying on her side.
Semyon also took a crushing force from the right to the left, like if he had been sitting next to Luda in the den...
But here's the smoking gun :-
"This sign indicates a bilateral rupture of the lungs"
That's got to be burst lungs, from an explosion....
It should be noted that the fractures of the ribs were formed biphasic. But there is not a word about this in the act of the Renaissance. In the first phase, as a result of a blow to the right side of the thorax by a solid blunt object with a traumatic surface comparable in size to the length of the rib cage, there was a fracture of the right lobes II, III, IV, and V in the mid-axillary line.
In the second phase, as a result of compression of the thoracic anteriorly backward with a hard blunt object, there was a fracture of the ribs II, III, IV, V on the right along the midclavicular line, and fracture of the II, III, IV, V, VI, VII ribs on the left along the midclavicular line. In the same phase, a hemorrhage in the region of the sternum was formed, and a bruise of the heart also occurred.
Like something heavy rolled over her...
This is was based on a non biased viewpoint from a regarded forensic expert WITHOUT Ivanov and the funky bunch of communist state coverup artists standing over him.
GENERAL REMARKS.
All the inspection protocols for the location of the detection of corpses and forensic medical examinations are made, roughly speaking, hackneyed:.
1. The examination was conducted without the participation of a physician-specialist in the field of forensic medicine, which is a violation of the procedure for examining corpses at the place of their detection. The presence and localization of cadaveric spots and the state of the skin in general are not described, the visible lesions on the body are only partially described. Clothes and the position of corpses are described very superficially.
2. Forensic shooting of the scene of the incident was not carried out, the photos are not very informative, closer to the artistic shooting than to the forensic photography.
3. The conclusions of the first five acts of forensic examination were written as a photocopy:.
"... Doroshenko's death (or Krivonischenko, Kolmogorova, Dyatlov, Slobodin) was caused by low temperature, as evidenced by edema of the meninges, a sharp fullness of the internal organs, an overflow of the dark blood of the heart cavities, the presence of Wischnewsky spots on the stomach mucosa, frostbite fingers of the extremities ... ".
4. In each of the nine acts, the expert indicates that the pieces of internal organs are taken for histological examination, but the results in the criminal case are only in the last four - Thibo-Brignol NV, Kolevatova AS, Zolotareva AA and Dubinina LA It can be assumed that the histology of the first five corpses was deliberately hidden, since it was clearly more informative than the corpses found two months later.
5. In each of the nine acts, the Vozrozhdenniy writes that pieces of internal organs are taken for forensic chemical research. But in the case materials there is not a single result of the conducted forensic chemical research, which should at least show the presence or absence of alcohol. But, a little nuance - to determine the alcohol take blood and urine. Vozrozhdenniy points out that parts of internal organs are taken for a forensic chemical study. This means that he directed the bodies for a forensic chemical study, not only for alcohol, but for the presence of poisons.
6. And, finally, the arrangement of cadaveric spots does not coincide with the position of some corpses at the time of their detection. Rustem Slobodin and Yuri Doroshenko found face down, and the cadaver spots the expert described on the back surface of the trunk. The same description is also given by Zinaida Kolmogorova, who, as indicated in the examination report, found lying on her side.
FROM AUTHORS:.
We thank our expert Eduard Tumanov for the work done. And now, in a clearer picture of the injuries of the woodpeckers, we can safely assume that a fight has occurred on the pass. With poachers? Or with someone else, or ... we spread our hands. At the same time, strong rib fractures in Dubinina and Zolotarev indicate that such injuries do not get in fights. That is, according to the cleavages of the ribs you can see that they did not kick a man, there ... with boots, but only one blow and some great object were dealt. What would that mean?
It is very alarming that the results of the forensic histological examination of the first five corpses are absent in the criminal case! And, as our expert suggested, it is possible that the results of that histology were intentionally concealed. Special attention: all 9 corpses take pieces of internal organs for forensic chemical examination. But there is not a single result in the case materials! And this gives us reason to suspect that chemical experts could find traces in bodies, for example, of some sort of combat poison.
We are going to continue the investigation further and we will be glad to new specialists who can help us on this topic.
NICOLAI, POSSIBLE, BEAT BY HEAD AND BY RIBS.
NIKOLAI TIBO-BRINOLS.
The certificate of forensic medical expert Vozrozhdenniy from May 9, 1959:.
"... In the right temple, there is a distinct hemorrhage in the right temporal muscle ... a depressed fracture of the right temporal parietal region is determined in a 9 x 7 cm area with a defect in bone tissue and a temporal bone 3 x 3.5 x 2 cm in size. the area of ??the bone is pressed into the cavity of the skull and is located on the dura mater ... in the middle cranium of the pit a multifaceted fracture of the right temporal bone with a divergence of cracks was found ... ».
Tumanov:.
This trauma was formed as a result of a blow to the right temporal region with a blunt solid object with a limited traumatic surface that does not exceed the dimensions of the lesion. Stone, iron, or something else that is much stronger than the bones of the skull.
The certificate of forensic medical expert Vozrozhdenniy from May 9, 1959:.
"... In the area of ??the right shoulder on the anterior-internal surface - a spilled bruise 10x12 cm in size is greenish-blue at the level of the middle and lower third. In the area of ??bruising, hemorrhages in the underlying soft tissue ... ".
Tumanov:.
This again formed as a result of the impact of a solid blunt object. Direction of impact from front to back towards the anteroideal surface of the right shoulder at an angle close to the straight.
The certificate of forensic medical expert Vozrozhdenniy from May 9, 1959:.
"For histological examination, a part of the temporal-parietal bone is taken from the right.".
Tumanov:.
In a histological study there is no record of the study of this bone. But there is such a record - "Rib - Between the bone beams blood in a state of putrefaction." This suggests that Vozrozhdenniy at the time of the autopsy revealed a fracture of the rib and took it for histological examination, which showed the intravital nature of the fracture. But in the text of the Act there is not a word about rib fractures in Thibault Brignoles.
ALEXANDER KOLEVATOV.
The certificate of forensic medical expert Vozrozhdenniy from May 9, 1959:.
"Based on the study of the corpse Kolevatov believe that his death came as a result of exposure to low temperature."
Tumanov:.
This conclusion is groundless and in no way follows from the results of the forensic medical examination. There are no characteristic signs: no scarlet stains, no scarlet blood (just scarlet, not dark), Wischnewsky spots, and a number of microscopic signs.
The certificate of forensic medical expert Vozrozhdenniy from May 9, 1959:.
"The neck is long, thin, deformed in the region of the thyroid cartilage.".
Tumanov:.
The deformation of the neck in the text of the act itself is not described in the following. Not specified and the nature of deformation - congenital or acquired. What exactly is deformed and how. And according to the available description it is also impossible to determine - the deformation of the neck in the lifetime or posthumous.
Now SZ
SEMYON ZOLOTARYOV .
The certificate of forensic medical expert Vozrozhdenniy from May 9, 1959:.
"... it is determined by the II, III, IV, V, VI rib fracture on the right along the okologo-ore and mid-axillary line with hemorrhage into the adjacent intercostal muscles.".
Tumanov:.
Fractures in the ribs of Zolotarev have been intravital, as evidenced by the results of a histological examination (hemorrhages in the soft tissues - Auth.) And the presence of blood in the pleural cavity.
The mechanism of damage formation is as follows: a blow, compression from the right to the left with a solid blunt object with a traumatic surface comparable in size to the chest of Zolotarev. To break thus the ribs, falling on a flat solid surface, is unreal.
The certificate of forensic medical expert Vozrozhdenniy from May 9, 1959:.
"... In the region of the superciliary arches and eye sockets, a defect of soft tissues of a rounded shape at a site of 7 x 6 cm with thin edges, with exposure of the bones of the facial skull. The glaznitsa gap. There are no eyeballs ... ".
Tumanov:.
Both Zolotarev and Dubinina had similar injuries posthumously, as a result of damage to the corpse by animals.
Now LYUDMILA DUBININA.
The certificate of forensic medical expert Vozrozhdenniy from May 9, 1959:.
" Dubinin 's death came as a result of a large hemorrhage to the right ventricle of the heart, multiple bilateral fracture of the ribs, lethal internal bleeding into the chest cavity.".
Tumanov:.
It should be noted that the fractures of the ribs were formed biphasic. But there is not a word about this in the act of the Renaissance. In the first phase, as a result of a blow to the right side of the thorax by a solid blunt object with a traumatic surface comparable in size to the length of the rib cage, there was a fracture of the right lobes II, III, IV, and V in the mid-axillary line.
In the second phase, as a result of compression of the thoracic anteriorly backward with a hard blunt object, there was a fracture of the ribs II, III, IV, V on the right along the midclavicular line, and fracture of the II, III, IV, V, VI, VII ribs on the left along the midclavicular line. In the same phase, a hemorrhage in the region of the sternum was formed, and a bruise of the heart also occurred.
The certificate of forensic medical expert Vozrozhdenniy from May 9, 1959:.
"... in the pleural cavities contained up to one and a half liters of liquid dark blood.".
Tumanov:.
This sign indicates a bilateral rupture of the lungs, but the act does not say a word about it. Yes, and the statement of the expert should be taken critically, since after the onset of death before the moment of forensic medical examination 3 (!) Months passed, and as a result of rotting tissues in the pleural cavities accumulated exudate (putrefactive fluid - Auth.), Which mingled with broken blood.
The certificate of forensic medical expert Vozrozhdenniy from May 9, 1959:.
"... are the result of the impact of a large force, followed by the fall, throw or bruise of the chest area by Dubinina.".
Tumanov:.
Neither during the throw, nor during the fall, marked damage to the chest by Dubinin could not have been formed. Similar injuries occur when rolling through the chest of a massive blunt object. For example, breast trauma, similar to those detected in Dubinina, is characteristic of a traffic accident - a car crossing the chest with the victim lying on his back.
The certificate of forensic medical expert Vozrozhdenniy from May 9, 1959:.
"... On the outer and anterior surface of the left thigh, in the middle third, the diffuse bruise of cyanotic-lilac color in a section measuring 10 x 5 cm, with a hemorrhage into the thickness of the skin ...".
Tumanov:.
Apparently, Lyudmila hit hard on a hard blunt object, or hit her with a similar object.
The certificate of forensic medical expert Vozrozhdenniy from May 9, 1959:.
"Horns of the hyoid bone of unusual mobility." Then comes the word "broken", but the expert in the Act hid it.
Tumanov:.
It is not clear that the expert considers them normal mobility, because in norm, with a whole bone, they are immovable in general. Why are they mobile (pathology of the structure, fracture, if fracture, then where) in the Act is not described. If the bone was actually broken, then it is impossible to tell whether this fracture is alive or not, since the Act does not describe the nature of the soft tissues surrounding the bone. The study of the hyoid bone was not carried out.
RUSTEM SLOBODIN (found on the slope of Mount Holatchahl).
The certificate of forensic medical expert of the Vozrozhdenniy from March 8, 1959 :.
"... edema of the meninges, fullness of the internal organs, Wischnewsky spots on the stomach mucosa ... The dura mater of the cyanosis, the vessels of its weak blood filling. Under the dura mater, up to 75 cc was kept. cm, bloody fluid, mild cloudy, red-greenish color. The substance of the brain is a formless mass of greenish-red color with indistinguishable contours of the ventricles of the brain, as well as gray and white matter ... ".
Tumanov:.
With such a transformation of the brain, it is impossible to see edema of the meninges.
The certificate of forensic medical expert of Vozrozhdenniy from March 9, 1959:.
"From the anterior margin of the scales of the left temporal bone ... upwards of the frontal bone segment there is a bone fracture with a divergence of the edges up to 0.1 cm, crack length up to 6 cm. ... Under the dura mater, up to 75 cm3 of bloody fluid was contained.".
Tumanov:.
This trauma was formed as a result of a blow by a solid blunt object or from a blow to the head about such an object.
The certificate of forensic medical expert of Vozrozhdenniy from March 9, 1959:.
"The absence of a pronounced cerebral hemorrhage gives reason to believe that Slobodin's death occurred precisely as a result of his freezing.".
Tumanov:.
This assertion is unreasonable. There was blood under the dura mater. And this gives all grounds to say that Slobodin had a subdural hemorrhage (hemorrhage under the dura mater). According to available data it is impossible to exclude the onset of Slobodin's death as a result of craniocerebral trauma.
The certificate of forensic medical expert of Vozrozhdenniy from March 9, 1959:.
"The back of the nose is straight, on the dorsal side of the nose and in the region of the tip of the nose soft tissue is brownish-red. On the tip of the nose is a section of soft tissues under a dry brown-cherry crust measuring 1.5 x 1 cm. ".
Tumanov:.
Traces of secretions of parched blood formed as a result of a trauma to the nose.
The certificate of forensic medical expert of Vozrozhdenniy from March 9, 1959:.
"... In the region of the metacarpophalangeal joints of the wrists, the deposition of the protruding parts of the soft tissues in the areas of 8 x 1.5 cm, covered with dry parchment density, is lower than the skin level. On the ulnar edge of the left hand, the brown-cherry coloring parchment density of 6 x 2 cm with the transition of sedimentation to the lateral surface of the finger of the left hand. ".
Tumanov:.
These abrasions could be formed as a result of the action of a solid blunt object, as well as the impact of a fist clenched on a solid object.
Now with ZINAIDA KOLMOGOROVA! .
ZINAIDA KOLMOGOROVA (found on the slope of Mount Holatchahl).
The certificate of forensic medical expert of Vozrozhdenniy from March 4, 1959:.
"... In the upper eyelid of the left and right eye, the site of skin firming of dark red color is 5 x 1 cm and 0.5 x 0.5 cm. On the dorsal side of the nose there is a reddish brown reddish brown, 1 x 0.7 cm in size, on the tip of the nose the same abrasion of the parchment density of 2 x 1 cm. In the area of ??the zygomatic arches, cheeks and chin a variety of abrasions of different shapes and sizes under dry brown color crusts from 6 x 2 cm in size to? x 1 cm and less. ... ".
Tumanov:.
Zina could get these bruises when she fell face down on the snow.
The certificate of forensic medical expert of Vozrozhdenniy from March 4, 1959:.
"... On the back of the right and left hand in the area of ??the metacarpophalangeal and interphalangeal joints, bruise-colored abrasions are dense to the touch, ranging in size from 1.5 x 1 cm to 0.3 x 3 cm. In the rear of the right hand, at the base of the third finger, shape, the angle facing the terminal phalanx in dimensions of 3 x 2.2 cm with uneven edges and scalp skin graft .... ".
Tumanov:.
And these injuries the girl received, most likely, from punching on a solid object. When falling on the snow with an emphasis on the fists, there would be other damage.
The certificate of forensic medical expert of Vozrozhdenniy from March 4, 1959:.
"... In the lumbar region of the right lateral surface of the trunk, right side of the abdomen, the skin is set in a bright red color in the form of a strip measuring 29 x 6 cm ...".
Tumanov:.
It was formed as a result of a blow by a solid blunt object, which had an elongated shape (stick, branch of a tree, etc.).
The main sign of death from hypothermia is the presence of the so-called ‘Wischnewsky spots’, described in 1895 by the coroner S.M. Wischnewsky. These spots are found on the gastric mucosa (stomach membrane) in about seventy-five percent of deaths from low temperatures. According to Vozrozhdenniy, all members of the Dyatlov group had Wischnewsky spots. Tumanov questions the possibility of identifying these spots in the last four bodies due to the state of their deep decay; and even for the first five corpses, which were found in a much more preserved condition, it is difficult to give a clear hypothermia diagnosis based on this and other characteristic features of the condition. Tumanov also doubts the possibility of identifying oedema of the brain – one more characteristic of hypothermia. The brain matter in the corpses was ‘a greenish red, jelly-like substance. The grey matter can hardly be distinguished from the white matter. Brain ventricle contours are indistinguishable. The cerebellum matter pattern is poorly distinguished.’ It was improper defrosting that made it impossible to diagnose oedema of the brain. Still Vozrozhdenniy cited it in order to conclude that freezing was the cause of death. He also mentioned cardiac cavities full of liquid dark blood, which cannot qualify as a sign of death from hypothermia because the blood of frozen people is bright red due to high concentrations of oxyhemoglobin. Finally, neither third nor fourth degree frostbite of fingers or toes was observed. Krivonischenko’s report reads ‘terminal phalanx is dry and dark brown in colour’. According to modern experts, these are the signs of post mortem freezing of the body. Five of the group members had facial abrasions. Small abrasions often occur when an exhausted person is crawling in frozen conditions when he or she can injure the skin by rubbing against firm snow or ice. The location of these on the frontal parts of the bodies (faces and hands) excludes possible compression with snow (like in an avalanche). Had this been the case, they would have been observed all over the body evenly. The bodies were not found in the classic foetal position supposedly assumed by a person freezing to death. Doroshenko and Krivonischenko were even found in a pose similar to that of sunbathing on a beach. In fact, the foetal position is found in less than 30% of all cases of death by freezing, and simply suggests that the person still felt cold when he or she died. Dyatlov’s pose is closer to this classical position. Tumanov suggests that Dyatlov was the only one on the slope who really died by hypothermia.
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (pp. 152-154). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
Now with Igor Dyatlov! .
IGOR DIATLOV WAS VOMITING THE BLOOD.
IGOR DIATLOV (found on the slope of Mount Holatchahl).
The certificate of forensic medical expert of Vozrozhdenniy from March 4, 1959:.
"... a sharp fullness of the internal organs, an overflow of the dark cavities in the cavities of the heart ...".
Tumanov:.
At the autopsy, Igor Dyatlov's internal organs were in rotting state. Therefore, it is incorrect to assert that the internal organs are full of blood, as their structure is modified by postmortem processes. And the presence of dark blood is not a sign of death from hypothermia, on the contrary, when supercooled, the blood is bright red due to the high content of oxyhemoglobin.
The certificate of forensic medical expert of Vozrozhdenniy from March 4, 1959:.
"... on the upper surface of the folds of the stomach on the mucosa is a large number of small hemorrhages, spots Wischnewsky ...".
Tumanov:.
The expert, Vozrozhdenniy interprets petty-hemorrhage as a spot of Wischnewsky. But at the same time, in the stomach of Dyatlov, "about 100 cubic cm of liquid mucous mass of a brownish reddish color", "the mucous membrane of the stomach is lilac-red, swollen," and "the lips are covered with gore".
Most likely, Dyatlov had vomiting before his death with an admixture of blood. The source of bleeding is the gastric mucosa. What caused such a vomiting - poisoning or abnormality of the stomach - can not be established, since there is no case in the materials of the forensic chemical and histological examination.
The certificate of forensic medical expert of Vozrozhdenniy from March 4, 1959:
"... in the region of the forehead on the frontal tubercles, small abrasions are dark red, in the region of the left superciliary arena a brownish-red abrasion, parchment density rises above the surface of the skin, on the upper eyelids small brown-red abrasions, on the nose and tip of the nose - red color of parchment density, 2 x 1.5 cm in size, in the area of ??both cheekbones, abrasions of reddish-brown color under a dry crust 3 x 1.5 x 1 cm, 3 x 0.5 cm, on the left, and on the right small abrasions . In the region of the left cheek, small abrasions are dark brown in parchment density. In the area of ??the knee joints on the right and on the left, grazes of dark red color, 1 x 0.5 cm in size and 0.5 by 0.5 cm in parchment density without hemorrhage into the underlying tissues ... ".
Tumanov :.
Igor could get these bruises when he fell on the snow.
The certificate of forensic medical expert of Vozrozhdenniy from March 4, 1959:.
"... In the region of the left ankle joint on the anterior lateral and posterior surfaces, in the areas of both ankles bruised-red abrasions are impressed over the surface of the skin, and also at the skin level, measuring 1 x 0.5 cm, up to 3 x 2; 5 cm, with a hemorrhage into the underlying soft tissues. In the area of ??abrasions one cut is visible, in the lower third of the right shin the skin is covered by 4 x 2 cm ... ".
Tumanov:.
But these damage from falling on the snow will not get. They could appear from circular compression in the ankle, for example as a result of binding by a rope.
The certificate of forensic medical expert of Vozrozhdenniy from March 4, 1959:.
"... In the region of the metacarpophalangeal articulations and interphalangeal articulations, soft lacquer-lilac, parchment-dense tissues are covered with dry, crusty crusts with hemorrhage into the underlying tissues. The left brush is a brown-lilac color with brown-red color, parchment density, 1 by 0.5 cm in size, and 2 by 0.2 cm. The skin is in the area of ??the back surface of the 2nd 4th finger ... ".
Tumanov:.
Obviously, shortly before his death, Igor had to hit with a brush, clenched into a fist, over a hard object.
Now with Yuri Krivonishenko!.
Yuri Krivonishenko (found next to Doroshenko).
The certificate of forensic medical expert of Vozrozhdenniy from March 4, 1959:.
"... in the right temporal region and the occipital region a diffuse hemorrhage with impregnation of the right temporal muscle ...".
Tumanov:.
It's strange, but Krivonischenko's craniocerebral trauma is only in the description of the act, and in conclusion about the reasons for his death there is none. But this damage was formed as a result of a blow (or blows) by a solid blunt object (or objects) in the right temporal and occipital areas of the head of Yuri. It can not be ruled out that the trauma could be obtained by falling from the standing position and by hitting the right temporal and occipital areas of the head against a hard blunt object. With such a trauma there could be hemorrhages in the brain, but the disintegration of the brain substance in Krivonishchenko destroyed all the informative signs.
The certificate of forensic medical expert of Vozrozhdenniy from March 4, 1959:.
"... on the middle phalanx of the middle finger (right hand, - Auth.), The epidermal defect in shape and size coincides with that found in the oral cavity ...".
Tumanov:.
Again the same rake. In the description of the act about the bite is written, and in the conclusion about death - not a word. But this one line gives reason to believe that Krivonishenko himself bitten himself by the finger, snatching a piece of leather. What does it mean? Perhaps Yuri tried to restrain the cry with severe pain. Perhaps, it was important that someone at that moment did not hear it.
The certificate of forensic medical expert of Vozrozhdenniy from March 4, 1959:.
"... On the inner surface of the upper third of the left thigh, there are three dermal wounds of a linear shape with even margins as deep as 0.3 cm with sharp angles of 1.5 to 0.4 cm ...".
Tumanov:.
I can assume that these "wounds" - cuts - were formed from a sharp object. Knife, glass, blade - anything.
The certificate of forensic medical expert of Vozrozhdenniy from March 4, 1959:.
"... In the middle part of the forehead, a section of a 0.3-by-0.3 cm round-shaped precipitation is of a brownish-red color of parchment density. ... In the left temporal region, two abrasions of a brownish-red color of parchment density, a size of 1.2 to 0.3 cm and 1 cm to 0.2 cm ... ".
Tumanov:.
It is doubtful that these abrasions were formed when the person fell face down on the snow. Then the nose and the superciliary arches would be buried, and there would be more scratches on the forehead. These abrasions of Krivonischenko from blows with a solid blunt object (or hitting against similar objects) at an acute angle.
The certificate of forensic medical expert of Vozrozhdenniy from March 4, 1959:.
"Burns of the left thigh and shin 2-3 degrees (near the fire)".
Tumanov:.
Suppose, second-degree burns can be obtained by negligence, falling asleep at the fire. But third-degree burns are charring (!) Of soft tissues. To achieve this effect, you need to keep your feet in the fire for a long time. Get in a dream such a burn is impossible, burns already 1-st degree cause severe pain and awakening. In this case, third-degree burns could be formed if a person was in deep depression, for example, into intoxication (he did not feel pain or could not pull his leg off, - Auth.) Next to a strong fire.
The certificate of forensic medical expert of Vozrozhdenniy from March 4, 1959:.
"... In the middle third of the nose a brown-red abrasion, parchment density, passing into the wound in the tip of the nose and wings with a defect of soft tissues measuring 1.8 x 2 cm, the bottom of the wound is the cartilage of the nasal septum, right nasal passage ...".
Tumanov:.
Wounds on the nose are caused by animals and after the death of Yuri. Otherwise, there would be traces of bleeding.
Lets start with Yuri Doroshenko!
It is impossible to confirm that two people were frozen at the bonfire
YURI DOROSHENKO (found under the cedar near the remains of the fire)
The certificate of forensic medical expert of Vozrozhdenniy from March 4, 1959:
"... Doroshenko's death came as a result of exposure to low temperature, ... as evidenced by edema of the meninges, a sharp plethora of internal organs, a dark liquid overflowing the heart cavities, the presence of Wischnewsky spots on the stomach mucosa, bladder overflow, frostbite of the limbs and burn II - III degrees around the fire. " .
Tumanov: .
Given the putrefaction of the corpse, it is highly doubtful that a forensic expert could see all of the above signs at the autopsy. Thus, Vozrozhdenniy, in support of the diagnosis, writes - "... as evidenced by the swelling of the meninges ..." at the same time, at the autopsy reports - "... The substance of the brain is a mass of a jelly-like reddish-green color. Gray matter of the brain is hardly distinguishable from white matter. The contours of the lateral ventricles of the brain are hardly distinguishable ... ".
With such a transformation of the brain, it is impossible to see the swelling of the meninges! .
The presence of dark blood is not a sign of death from hypothermia, on the contrary, when supercooled, the blood is bright red due to the high content of oxyhemoglobin.
The resulted statement about a frostbite of fingers of extremities is not proved. There is nothing about this in the text of the study.
These circumstances (see General Comment, point 3) allow us to say that Doroshenko's death came as a result of hypothermia, only in a hypothetical form.
(That's the part I must of missed. Maybe you haven't got to it yet.)
Lol, hey don't knock it, like you say, a lot of unsolved murders could be solved!
Nigel's got Roller BL...
I call Cyberknife BL! ...That covers the Ripper and Black Dahlia mysteries!!!
"he convinced me that no such facilities were nearby and no possibility of missile launches." .
Nothing to see here.... move along now (pat on the head).
"But, there was one instance that put us on the alert. When the last bodies were found later in May, an order came to collect all items found at the pass and send them for radiological examination".
The first bodies showed us something your not allowed to know about which is why Im ordering you to test for radiation.
"Also, all people who had been in contact with the things found in the tent and nearby were ordered to undergo body counting."
While your at it... test all these ground peasants that were at the tent and touched crap also.
" So it was done, but neither a reassuring, nor any other results were made known to us. And again, the fact of some secret military tests being held was coming to mind." .
This is way above your paygrade... go look for some fireballs or something.
"We applied with a letter signed by the Oblast Prosecutor to either the Prosecutor General of the USSR or the Federal – I don’t remember exactly now – asking to explain what really we were investigating into? And how it was related to radiation? Could it be so that even the top commandant of the Urals Military District knew nothing of any tests of armaments held there? In response to our letter, Deputy Prosecutor General, comrade Urakov came to meet with us and gave orders that we were to all tell anyone who asked that the hikers’ death was an accident".
Listen up peasant... Not only am I NOT going to answer your question, but I came all the way down here to personally tell you to shut your big fat mouth about radiation and tell everyone it was an "accident".
"Urakov evaded all our direct questions about tests of armaments. I mean, he did not deny this version, but simply avoided direct answers." .
Pft.... this is on a need to know basis and your not in the loop.
"What’s more, Urakov took absolutely no interest in the course of our investigation, as if the picture of the scene was absolutely clear to him already. He, however, took the case away with him." .
We know something that you dont, so we are yanking the rug out from under you.
"With that, our investigation came to an end. Just imagine: at the very height of the investigation, when dead bodies with strange injuries have just been found, the case is being taken away!" .
CLEAR EVIDENCE OF A COVERUP
"And I clearly remember when we were signing our letter in the office of Oblast Prosecutor Klinov, he himself asked in doubt whether we had omitted something and had not fully checked one or the other evidence? We told him that if the top officials discard the military incident version, then all is left to us is to consider other possible versions. He found our considerations convincing, and signed the letter. But, again, the reaction from Moscow was such that our suppositions of a military involvement had been neither confirmed nor disproved..." .
You go look for leprechauns and unicorns little boy, you are done here.
Be my guest.
@Lightning - aren't there youtube videos of stuff like this? People filming their path?
What facts does it address that you couldn't take the BL out and replace with almost anything ?
What fact wrt the DPI does the BL theory not address? And what's this agenda i have?
You see things ass backwards imho.
"The BL theory is a first class fit for the facts"
No Nigel, it is not.. it fits only false facts you have construed to push an agenda.
- well i'm burdened with trying to find a theory to fit the facts.
That's the part I must of missed.
The ravine is only nine feet deep.
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (p. 120). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
I think that picture of the den is the depth of the ravine. Doesn't rule out an overhang/wind slab though.
@Lyndasez - best of luck.
The same with the least amount of wild assumptions!
http://image.ibb.co/n7ai9Q/0_91aae_9e660b2c_XL.jpg
Then you are a glutton for punishment ...
Your theory has too many outlandish assumptions.
BL without leaving traces...
Special KGB cameras
Terrified experienced hikers who flee an extraordinary occurrence, yet, ordinary locals don't put their lives in jeopardy
A triage set up in the ravine
SZ taking notes in the throes of death
Explosions that have an impact on people yet leaves the area untouched
KGB film left at scene and disseminated
The hikers maps were approved
They deliberately went where the coordinates of BL were noted
There's no coverup
I'll think of more...that'll do for now
http://image.ibb.co/gRQGUQ/2716627.jpg
It was a portion of this:
(Inspection report of the scene
Sheet 3
Inspection report
Places of Incident February 27, 1959)
Which I used to tell Nigel, the Russian info is not to be trusted....because one thing says this and another negates it...that all.
This was not part of the official autopsy or any other file in which a determination was established.
Nigel is misbehaving, for fun!
That was my initial point...
Incorrect again. The only person conducting themselves with misinformation propaganda to fit a narrative is..... you.
A negative with sprocket holes is a negative with sprocket holes. Your holy grail pictures are scans of negatives, and the light areas would have been dark areas when developed.
This isn't freaking rocket science..... There are no mysterious pictures of fireballs of light. Fact
The whole index finger is obscured in that photo as well...
LC,
Nigel is having fun with you... :c)
Left.. left... left.
Its redundant anyhow and I likely shouldnt have posted it. The statement came from a university search party individual as he recalled the cedar scene.
Did you post the right pic? Because the index finger if it's there, is hidden by his hair??
http://image.ibb.co/b4h4W5/krivonishenko_07_02.jpg
@Nigel- "you're assuming SZ's camera was standard, the negs you're showing aren't from his camera." .
Your assuming that SZs camera was NOT standard. Then what camera were they from??
They are masters at disinformation & coverup. For example: LC says: a finger is ripped off. You say: not true!
Well your both right according to offical docs, autopsy doesn't say so. However inspection at the scene does!
Sheet 4.
Identified: Krivonischenko Yuri
"The skin on the back of the left palm is torn off{{.Between the fingers is blood. The index finger is ripped off. }}The skin on the lower leg of the left leg was torn off, blood came out. There are no other injuries during the external examination. Next to him with Krivonischenko, is the corpse of Zolotarev? (from above it is written in parentheses: "mistake"
It's weirder than an accident?
@LC - you're assuming SZ's camera was standard, the negs you're showing aren't from his camera.
Cant rule it out!
In my opinion though, Its more likely that information and files within 1 case simply went poof which makes everyone observing it in totality missing several key ingredients.
http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Zolotaryov-camera-02.jpg
Original 35mm Negs
http://image.ibb.co/fmYmB5/19_4.jpg
Both inverted as it were to be when developed.
http://image.ibb.co/grpF4Q/1_5.jpg
Note... The holes are opposite colors simply because the trips held to the window and were backlighted with white light. The other was scanned which attributes a black background to this area.
"EO thinks the deaths are connected with rocket testing."
Could be!
At a certain elevation rocket boosters fall away from main body of the craft and fall to earth, where? who knows but a cleanup crew picks it up.
Could be, maybe, prehaps, maybe not. The only thing this clears up for me is the fact a major cover-up took place. Something embarrassing to the Kremlin.
It goes on to say that a further site inspection once the snows had melted as abandoned because they couldn't get a permit... Central office refusing the criminal investigation team further access to the site. Central party figures present at the five autopsies was highly unusual.
Central office basically closed the case and instructed EO and Ivanov to state it was an accident and "rig" the report to fit that. EO states how good Ivanov was as an investigator describing him as meticulous and very thorough. He says they found it quite stressfull dealing with the parents who wanted answers but they had to follow orders.
Missing documentation is noted, all the personel on the case would be assigned via official orders but this is missing.
EO thinks the deaths are connected with rocket testing.
Yeah, lol, okay! ;c)
Anyway Semyon's camera could be a special KGB camera, who knows what it could do
Gives me the confidence to go on in my lonely struggle for truth and wisdom.
@KMM - i'm still waiting for the next theory to complement the two heard so far... Wind and then flapping tent, how do you come up with this stuff? Unrecognised genius? Possibly going to stay that way...
@IVANOV - i don't have that many roubles in my piggy bank. How about 2 Euros and a copy of Kylie Minogues, "I can't get you out of my head" and a piece of chewing gum?
Omg...lol, let the guy come up for air!!!
He's a good sport------> "@IVANOV - hi there i could use some help with this motley crew."
Caught me a fireball the other night with my cellphone! 8^O .
Have you got stopped running yet ? :-P
http://image.ibb.co/k8gKyk/IMG_20170905_205657246.jpg
see those sprocket holes? That thar is a negative. This means Nigels white orb is a black shit stain when developed.
Think they'd say photo or contact if this were true, not negative.
The black dots could be light, hard to say they're clearly examining a compromised negative. They're playin you....we're lookin for black orbs on a negative.
"Doesn't matter, anyway, unless we're looking at "developed film," you're looking at a reverse image (negative)." .
Bingo.... Nigels black orbs have no light. lol
I'm sure he will say "DARK BL", related to dark matter. :-)
Bingo.... Nigels black orbs have no light. lol
"It is claimed that under a microscope they can be seen to be exposures."
Yes, the film was over exposed due to the elements, meaning it's garbage. Same would happen if you took photos with a roll of film then unraveled the film in a lit area or swished it in water. Those exposures you took are now toast!
It is claimed that under a microscope they can be seen to be exposures.
Yeah, sorry, but he's pissin in the wind with this BL theory. First he says it "hit the den area vaporizing snow with heat stronger than the sun," but left a twig seat intact, there's no massive amounts of solid ice, snapped trees, or burnt victims!?..
Now it's accounts of people seeing lights --one so close he thought planets were colliding, but these kids defied death to run from it an stay away...?!
I don't think the crews of any of the sailing ship accounts jumped overboard and swam for the open ocean either>
Alex would've wanted his pic taken beside BL, and the rest would be fighting over who saw it first!
Hell, those folks in the story Nigel posted didn't jump out windows! However, there was a boat load of destruction in its path, which Nigel hasn't accounted in his DPI theory!
@KMM - three eye witness accounts in two months (from memory) including the investigation team onsite and the ski group said their's was over Mt Otorten. Not sure about the meteorologist.
Doesn't matter what the zoom is to me, it's what's there after it's zoomed.
So, you have no evidence of what happened to DP group. Just some hearsay stuff about lights seen in sky elsewhere !
I hate to be the one that reminds you of this, but other photos shown as SZs are now debunked. They are negatives which is evident by the film gear slots and thus.... Your little blotches at 30x magnification are would actually be black spots if developed. To add insult to injury, they have been proven to reside outside of the viewable rectangle area where the pictures exposure takes place.
Its ALL bs..... Not just the three amigos.
Doesn't matter what the zoom is to me, it's what's there after it's zoomed.
50km away and how else are they going to witness a light in the sky other than being some distance from it?
Except on a mountain top?..
So their just a witness to a light in the sky, NOT, I repeat, NOT a witness to anything to do with the DP group !
No, the theory that SZ had a secret camera and the three heads was an original non processed photo got shot down (by my investigation and no one elses ....).
But the evidence remains, photos of lights from three cameras. Semyon took a lot of shots, say 10 which at 30x zoom show distinct similarities to eye witness reports. But granted the photographic evidence is not conclusive and open to interpretation.
Not so the eye witness reports.
"A person saying they saw a light in the sky 50 miles away is NOT an eye witness ! "
50km away and how else are they going to witness a light in the sky other than being some distance from it?
Except on a mountain top?....
@KMM - "see, its not that hard "
that's far worse than the first attempt. I'm sensing desperation.
The thing is nigel you have NO actual evidence !
your BL photo got shot down
A person saying they saw a light in the sky 50 miles away is NOT an eye witness !
By the entrance was a furnace; baskets; water flasks, one of which was filled with alcohol; a saw; and an axe.Deeper inside were the cameras. Further back was a bag with maps and documents, Dyatlov’s camera, a can containing money, Kolmogorova’s diary and windbreakers belonging to Dyatlov and Kolevatov. In the corner was a bag of rusks and another bag containing breakfast cereal. Next to them was a pair of boots. The other six pairs of boots were at the opposite side of the tent. In the middle of the tent were three pairs of valenki and one single one. Next to the rusks there was a log taken from the place of the previous camp. Above all, there was a ski pole, scored at several places.
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (pp. 50-51). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (p. 122). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
I would imagine that a well regarded professional and university star of the program on the most important trip of his life to obtain the ultimate goal of level 3........ might have boots that fit.
From above?
@KMM - "see, its not that hard "
that's far worse than the first attempt. I'm sensing desperation..
@LC - bruised ankles
maybe his ski boots didn't fit that well.
@IVANOV - hi there i could use some help with this motley crew.
From above?
NOTE: Back and front of both ankles bruised with abrasions and hemorrhaging. Was he dragged or something? Strung upside down? Was he bound at the ankles and relocated? Was his hands bound aswell? His frozen position is strange to me at best.
Yeah,I have seen reports they were roped/used a rope all the way down the slope. Didnt know if it was definite enough to argue
D - E - A - D as in dead. Move along now, nothing to see here! Where's me Ivanov vodka?
Oh looky, a squirrel...
@KMM,
Have you read Nigel's theory?
Cedar guys were stuck by lightning...
BL creates hot spot (crusted ice) near tent ...but he neglects to explain how these microwaves didn't melt its path or its burst didn't snap and scorch trees.
I've read ALL his comments like he "instructed" me to do right off the bat !!
Good catch! These bone-heads are covering something up. Thanks again for that hibinaud link cleared up a bunch for me!
March 4, 1959 The autopsy is done and signed. Within the text states... "On the night of February 2, under unclear circumstances, all 9 people died"
They determined the rav4 dead very early when they could have very well been alive for all they knew as the bodies had not been found.
Basically shithead Ivanov at the time 2yuris, Igor, Rustem, and Zina were just found... declared the rav4 dead. Nigel will tell you its perfectly acceptable, but in reality it shows his utter neglection of duty and pure incompetence.
We take a look at the body if Igor Dyatlov. Why might you ask?? Because its small potatoes!!! .
"STUDIES OF THE CITIZEN DYATLOV Igor Alekseevich, 23 years old on March 4, 1959".
"The cuffs are buttoned. In a breast pocket there was a packing "streptotsid" with 4 tablets".
Note: Hmmmmm Guess he has a habit of carrying this around in case of emergencies?
"in the forehead area on the frontal tubercles, small abrasions of a dark red color".
NOTE: Abrasion on the forehead. You can see the severity of the 'small' abrasion below. Looks to me like a half dollar size of his scalp is pealed back! Unless.... they are talking about other abrasions of the forehead, which would make this pictured wound UNDOCUMENTED! http://image.ibb.co/c9ONzQ/PkTFfHW2.jpg
"in the region of the left brow, a brown-red abrasion, parchment density rises above the surface of the skin"
NOTE: Abrasion left eyebrow, skin of affected area is swollen, or its an open cut with raised edges. You decide.
"small brown abrasions on the upper eyelids".
NOTE: Self explanatory.
"on the dorsum of the nose and the tip of the site of the brownish-red color amentnoy density, dimensions 2 x 1.5 cm in both chines abrasion brown-red color under dry crust 3 x 1.5 x 1 cm, 3 x 0.5 cm, -.. the left and right small abrasions".
NOTES: I dunno but it sounds like several abrasions of the nose.
"Lips of cyanotic-lilac color, covered with gore".
NOTE: Blood, pus, spit.... gore! .
"On the upper jaw teeth white, smooth, rare, on the lower jaw there is no central incisor without a change in the mucous gum"
NOTE: From what I understand, he was already missing this tooth. However, this reads as if the gum has not 'changed', or possibly 'recovered'. Knocked out tooth or prior extraction... You decide.
"In the area of ??the knee joints on the right and on the left, grazes of dark red color, measuring 1 x 0.5 cm. 0.5 to 0.5 cm of parchment density without hemorrhage into the underlying tissues".
NOTE: I would kinda expect these crawling around and whatnot.
"In the region of the left ankle sushutava on the anterior lateral and posterior surfaces, in areas of both ankles bruise-red abrasions, colors pressed over the surface of the skin, as well as on ???? skin, size 1 x 0.5 cm, up to 3 x 2, 5 cm, with a hemorrhage into the underlying soft tissue. "
NOTE: Back and front of both ankles bruised with abrasions and hemorrhaging. Was he dragged or something? Strung upside down? Was he bound at the ankles and relocated? Was his hands bound aswell? His frozen position is strange to me at best.
http://image.ibb.co/dXT865/dyatloff_igor.jpg .
The murder theorist are going to rake Nigel over the coals with this on imo.
"on the outer side in the lower third of the right forearm, on the palmar surface, small abrasions of dark red color of parchment density".
Note: Outside of the right forearm abrasions.
"The rear of the right hand is lilac-gray in color. In the region of the metacarpophalangeal articulations and between the phalangeal joints, soft lacquer-lilac, parchment-dense tissues are covered with dry, crusty crusts with hemorrhage into the underlying tissues".
Note: Right back of hand is discolored, and the metacarpophalangeal articulations (knuckle joints) are dry and crusty with bleeding into the underlying tissue of the hand. These are the knuckles closest to the body of the hand...... the ones effected when punching something, or someone.
"In the region of the palmar surface of the 2nd 5th finger, the cutaneous wound of an irregularly linear shape with even edges located transversely to the long finger of the fingers, wounds of a surface depth of 0.1 (or 0.2 - approx.) See Bones and cartilages of the skeleton at feeling whole".
NOTE: Somewhere on the left hand middle AND ring finger cutaneous (of the skin) wound /wounds that are literally busted open down to the bone.
Hey, what was up with that previous post about proceedings?...what didn't I see??
"Sorry if this is off-topic, but does anyone else see what Im seeing here"
Have you read Nigel's theory?
Cedar guys were stuck by lightning...
BL creates hot spot (crusted ice) near tent ...but he neglects to explain how these microwaves didn't melt its path or its burst didn't snap and scorch trees.
see, its not that hard
@KMM - "I don't see it ! I could craft several theories to fit, none containing BL. How about a freakish strong wind lasting a few hours. "
and you'd leave the tent half dressed? Maybe the next of your several theories will be better.
You need to remember you are arguing BL !!!!
8-)
"it all depends on the direction of the force?"
Well don't hold back, where was the direction of force, we'd know from collateral damage....where and what would that be???
Question is ...why'd Thibi n SZ have boots? You don't suit up to take a pee. And if you're going with SZ was there to film it, he'd have calmed the situation, he knew panicking an running out half dressed was deadly.
If so, its a long long looooong way to hit rock bottom.
Hey,.. is there a boulder filled ravine at the bottom? That would be great. thanks. ROFLMAO
it all depends on the direction of the force?
and you'd leave the tent half dressed? Maybe the next of your several theories will be better....
"They leave the tent in their socks. No felt boots or gloves."
Had you read my post about the victims....
Thibi had felt boots.
SZ was maxed out, he had quilted burki.
"Men wore a special kind of valenki called burki. The bottom looked like leather boots, but upper part was made of white felt, framed with dark leather strips to protect from moisture and to contrast white felt. In Soviet times burki were worn by military officers, and heads of collective farms."
Hence, no 9th track, the warm barefeet left tracks (ice crust) till they cooled...
They walk to the cedar with no sign of any other tracks, leaving a flashlight at a position suggesting a beacon to assist the return.
They light a fire at the cedar, seemingly unable to return to the tent and make use of a den 70m away. (the den was found because of a trail of branch fragments used to construct the seats leading into the ravine snow, so they did use it even if they didn't construct it).
Pathologist talks of ravine injuries requiring superhuman force suggesting energy similar to a car accident or a bomb.
I don't see it ! I could craft several theories to fit, none containing BL. How about a freakish strong wind lasting a few hours.
Your last post is precisely what I am talking about.
"They walk to the cedar with no sign of any other tracks, leaving a flashlight at a position suggesting a beacon to assist the return." .
#1IIRC there wasn't any footprints to count or tracks in the treeline and into the ravine to observe, so in reality there could have been 300 people walking around down there and nobody would have ever known it.
#2 Could have been a potty light also. WE DONT KNOW
"They light a fire at the cedar, seemingly unable to return to the tent and make use of a den 70m away. (the den was found because of a trail of branch fragments used to construct the seats"
#1 Its a long ways back up there to a destroyed tent, or was it destroyed? WE DONT KNOW
#2 Bingo... They did NOT find the den (if there was a den) because of foot tracks. how many people were in the treeline/ravine? WE DONT KNOW
"Injuries ambiguous or otherwise, slits internal or external etc etc are small potatoes compared to what caused the above."
#1 When you dont know what the above answers are (you may think you do, but you dont)... better start looking at smaller potatoes!
#2 I wouldnt expect you to look for indications of not BL probabilities.... your not going to change now. #
#3 Imagine that.... someone you know found dead. Would you expect all the potatoes to be looked at especially their physical injuries? Unbelievable
"Of course the BL theory knocks these questions down like skittles."
Incorrect sir as your questions are bias and relatively invalid to begin with. This is exactly the arrogance I speak of, and the narrow mindedness that gets all of us no where.
"My problem with your thinking is that you're ignoring the big questions and trying reverse engineer a solution by proving that the injury profile shows human violence when an experienced policemen didn't see that. It's your mission to find a non BL solution at all costs, i'm just sitting at the top of the hill enjoying the view and throwing rocks at you, no offence :@)"
#1 laff... Nigel, Cmon man..... Your mad because Its to show all readers your unwillingness to accept critical information and otherwise attempt to discard it because it is non conforming to your narrative.
#2 Fighting within themselves in of itself does not eradicate your BL theory. How do you know a fight didnt ensue after having been forced to the treeline by a fireball? Why would that make/break your theory?
Nigel... I like ya man (some times), but you have got to get that head out of the anus asap.
"Sorry if this is off-topic, but does anyone else see what Im seeing here"
What's goin on, what am not seeing?
Pathologist talks of ravine injuries requiring superhuman force suggesting energy similar to a car accident or a bomb."
Umm, the docs say 8 followed a trail to ravine, two branched off, (direction of cedar?) where's the 9th?
The den couch, they all put scraps of clothes down in all 4 corners for seats as in pic and don't burn the darn seat for warmth, come on...that seat would've been blown to oblivion, if Rollin BL threw 4 people everywhere!
It doesn't. It's just that there isn't anything else that comes close. Lets trot through the key points yet again.
They leave the tent in their socks. No felt boots or gloves.
They walk to the cedar with no sign of any other tracks, leaving a flashlight at a position suggesting a beacon to assist the return.
They light a fire at the cedar, seemingly unable to return to the tent and make use of a den 70m away. (the den was found because of a trail of branch fragments used to construct the seats leading into the ravine snow, so they did use it even if they didn't construct it).
Pathologist talks of ravine injuries requiring superhuman force suggesting energy similar to a car accident or a bomb.
So those four lines are the BIG issues to solve. Injuries ambiguous or otherwise, slits internal or external etc etc are small potatoes compared to what caused the above.
That's the problem to be solved. Of course the BL theory knocks these questions down like skittles. Then there's the supporting info, eye witness accounts and photographs from three cameras (granted there's room for interpretation) of light phenomena. Ok burnt trees and dead birds are just curiosities.
My problem with your thinking is that you're ignoring the big questions and trying reverse engineer a solution by proving that the injury profile shows human violence when an experienced policemen didn't see that. It's your mission to find a non BL solution at all costs, i'm just sitting at the top of the hill enjoying the view and throwing rocks at you, no offence :@)
This is Igors... all structured the same.
"STUDIES OF THE CITIZEN
DYATLOV Igor Alekseevich, 23 years old
March 4, 1959, according to the decision of the Prosecutor's Office of the Sverdlovsk region of March 3, 1959 forensic experts of the Regional Bureau of Forensic Medical Examination of the Sverdlovsk Region VOZROZHDENNIY V.A. and Laptev Yu.I. in the presence of the Public Prosecutor of the Sverdlovsk Region, the State Counselor of Justice of the third class, Klinov NI, prosecutor of the criminal prosecutor of the regional prosecutor's office of the Junior Adviser of Justice IVANOV L.N. and witnessed tov. GORDO S.D. and NASKICHEV K.V. in the premise of the morgue of the central hospital of the office box No. 240 in daylight and sunny weather, a study of the corpse of a citizen DYATLOV IA was made. 23 years, to determine the cause of death and to answer the questions indicated in the resolution.
The circumstances of the case
On January 23, 1959, an amateur group of hikers consisting of 10 people went to a ski resort along the route Ivdel - Mount Oorten. From the site of the 2 nd Northern in the ski trip went 9 people. On February 1, 1959, the group began the ascent to Mount Oorten and in the evening broke the tent near the height of 1079.
On the night of February 2, under unclear circumstances, all 9 people died."
(" relevant to burns (possibly) and mechanical force (like a car accident)."
No, sorry, doesn't fit your narrative.
If BL followed them down a hill where's the sliding pond ice crust from micowaves, where's the crater, where it burst!!..
And if you're going with the aerial rubbish, where's the snapped, scorched trees?!
All had "bath skin"
Don't see any burns to any of these victims!
Thibi had a jacket, pants, socks, felt boots, and a fracture at the base of his skull
SZ had fur hat, jacket, sweaters, black quilted Burki=boots, socks, scarf, overalls, coveralls which continued folded newspaper, ski pants with more bits of newspaper, compressed nose, compressed chest on one side. <--- he was prepared!
I'm not buying this triage set up by Igor, if he was so smart everyone would've been together, an they'd had fashioned torches, if this occurred in the dead of night, not buying this....by the light of the silvery ball lighting thing...
Dont worry KMM, he pulled the same "if you bothered to read my 857 posts, you would know Im right" BS with me also.
@Nigel.
"you wouldn't look foolish"
I sure dont think kmm looks foolish, and when you start talking like your superior to everyone... it kinda turns people away from the BL theory even more then already stated. I wish you would have taken my advice and keep it simple. Something like... 'BL may possible be the reason why they left the tent and didnt return. BL might have been why they climbed the tree. It also may have come down the slope and injured some and killed others bla bla'....
But when you start talking about all this crap which has zero basis in fact as if it were indeed fact, and then expect other folks to explain their theory/idea to fit 'your' unsubstantiated 'facts', and then insult them...... it irritates the shit outta people and only degrades the quality of discussion. Lord knows I can go full-retard, but I do not get there on my own (like john). I wish it were as easy to point to x,y, and z as definitive proof, but when you start trying to force others to believe in burnt tree tops, hot-spots, secret KGB BL photo mission, james Bond camera, specs of crap out of frame with a 300X zoom, three heads BS thats actually part a zoomed part of another know exposure entirely...... on and on and on.... with no real tangible resources to verify them... It gets old man. just sayin.
Even if the injuries I have been listing are 1% accurate. There is more to this story that you are simply not willing to even entertain. Thats fine, we have all heard you clearly state your position, but what we dont need is to be bullied or otherwise intimidated and ridiculed for thinking drastically different then you. Whos right? Probably nobody and/or it may be (as I stated before) a combination of unfortunate events.
Side note:
You know Nigel, having a rav4 not be killed via an explosion of a fireball does not diminish your theory, it only makes it more basic and simple. You shouldn't have to construct a way in which said BL kills absolutely all of them. You should be willing to accept some or all died as a result of other means other then BL, while at the same time tow the line for the BL being the root cause of the situation i.e. forced away from tent. The 2Yuris being burned by the fire and not BL, same deal.
Like others, I am not married to any particlular theory, so I have no dog in the fight. I only wish you would accept other possibilities and how they may play a roll in how they died. If a BL scared them off the ridge, and then several other circumstances ultimately contribute to their passing.... whats wrong with that? Why does this 'have' to be ALL BL or nothing for you? Help me to understand this reasoning.
@KMM - "I guess he forgot to redistribute himself a pair of shoes to make his journey back to the tent ? 8-)"
Maybe he had big feet? As said before he could have been suffering from hypothermia and getting confused.
"as said before (many times)" said by YOU ! That DOES NOT make it true !"
Yes but if you followed things better i wouldn't have to repeat myself so much and you wouldn't look foolish criticising a theory you haven't bothered to follow...
"You ever hear of huddling to sharing body heat? Common practice when 2 or more are trying to stay warm. "
I think Nicolai was dead? Could have been used as a windbreak...
BUt you are the one claiming to HAVE all THE ANSWERS
Maybe he had big feet? As said before he could have been suffering from hypothermia and getting confused.
"as said before (many times)" said by YOU ! That DOES NOT make it true !"
Yes but if you followed things better i wouldn't have to repeat myself so much and you wouldn't look foolish criticising a theory you haven't bothered to follow...
"You ever hear of huddling to sharing body heat? Common practice when 2 or more are trying to stay warm. "
I think Nicolai was dead? Could have been used as a windbreak...
I guess he forgot to redistribute himself a pair of shoes to make his journey back to the tent ? 8-)
@KMM - as said before (many times) the rav4 were nursed by Igor (having sent Zina back to the tent with Rustem) who redistributed clothing from the dead to the living
"as said before (many times)" said by YOU ! That DOES NOT make it true !
You ever hear of huddling to sharing body heat? Common practice when 2 or more are trying to stay warm.
"Isn't sulphur smell associated with BL occurrences?"
Certainly with some, i doubt for all.
"She slid in a kneeling position, arms rested on ledge? Seriously, she'd have gone over if the current were strong in same position as men an carried away! "
All depends how she slid. Or if she was disturbed by the digging above. The 3 men where found lying next to each other like man and err wife. Doubtful they died like that.
@KMM,
Excellent observation, however, Nigel will say SZ lingered longer than others, took off Luddys hat an coat whilst she lie beside him in a kneeling position in the ravine...!?
I'm sure he will. Maybe he needs to look at SZ's injuries
Excellent observation, however, Nigel will say SZ lingered longer than others, took off Luddys hat an coat whilst she lie beside him in a kneeling position in the ravine...!?
If you posted this story as an example, it should have something to liken or compare to your narrative, Roller BL I presume. I find nothing.
[MALVERN HILLS TRAGEDY
"The rolling fireball rushed into the building through the doorway and struck the stone table, which was instantly shattered into fragments. It then passed straight across the room and exited through the window, tearing out the frame and surrounding stonework. In its passage, the rampaging fireball also smashed apart many of the large stones that comprised the walls."]
Isn't sulphur smell associated with BL occurrences?
("was the spring thaw (May) and the flow of water was strong and creating an airspace above the bodies (which can be seen in the photo). So it's very likely that the rav4 were pushed along the stream a little and Luda over the rock. She slid there imo."
She slid in a kneeling position, arms rested on ledge? Seriously, she'd have gone over if the current were strong in same position as men an carried away!
That 'was' the investigation. Lol it was concluded right there on the autopsy table. Post mortem.
Another note. The den3 with injuries during life... The injuries reflect exactly how they were found on the rocks. I do not believe the snow pushed them much if any. Just looking at LD slumped over the rock does not seem to be a natural way to 'wash' over a rock, especially with both arms up and over. Her ribs were broken on both sides in the FRONT exactly how she was found. Nikolai and SZ were found... On rocks... In the creek... laying on their right side....Both having broken bones on the right side of the body.
If there was a collapse or shift of a snow bank... It likely threw them to the ground right where they stood and the impact against the rocks caused the injuries.
Or, thats where they were murdered and or tossed. Depending on the theory you subscribe to. Either way, I believe it was the bodies being thrown/pressed against the rocks that broke the bones, and you do NOT need a fireball to shift or collapse a wall of snow. Especially 'if' they just dug a large chunk of it out for a 'den'. OR the den was staged.... We know it was 'reconstructed?'.
Don't know, two people got burns which could be the fire of course.
The theory is the rav4 (and perhaps Rustem) got an aerial blast within the ravine or the BL exploded within the snowbank that held the den.
"Ummm, she was pressed against it when found, now she was either thrown with the rest, slipped down there on her knees or fell an tried to reach others. But, anyway you slice its there's a ledge/wall there, no doubt. She and 3 others are on 2 different levels."
It was the spring thaw (May) and the flow of water was strong and creating an airspace above the bodies (which can be seen in the photo). So it's very likely that the rav4 were pushed along the stream a little and Luda over the rock. She slid there imo.
I neglected to add...
"An examination of the dead bodies, and the severe injuries to Joannah, revealed that all three had suffered burns to the face, neck, and breast, and that the hair on their heads was intact on one side while burnt off on the other. The clothes of each girl were also partly destroyed."
There's no injuries like the above on the RAV4. Where did this BL impact, it just spontaneously combusted, where?
Ummm, she was pressed against it when found, now she was either thrown with the rest, slipped down there on her knees or fell an tried to reach others. But, anyway you slice its there's a ledge/wall there, no doubt. She and 3 others are on 2 different levels.
http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Lyudmila-Dubinina-post-mortem-1.jpg
For some reason I doubt they obtained these injuries while skiing down hill face first with a closed fist like superman.
Something forced the hikers flee in their socks and crucially STAY AWAY from the tent for some time, so different behaviour. I just posted it because LC is filling up the pages with autopsy reports. Although rollers could be relevant to the undocumented rumour (afaik) that the investigation team experienced them later on.
"If your claim is BL is respnsible for the RAV4..how did it involve Alex, he died of exposure"
Fair point, but he had a wound at the back of head (autopsy says post mortem) and a deformed neck (not investigated!) so just guessing that he was unconcious and died of cold.
"and Luddy it's explained, she fell or ran into a ledge. "
Based on the forensic examination of the corpse of Ms. L.A. Dubinina I think that the death of Ms. Dubinina was caused by massive haemorrhage into the right ventricle, multiple bilateral rib fractures, and internal bleeding into the thoracic cavity.
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (p. 215). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
Luda got the whole package, may she rest in peace. I think the ledge is just some theorising, they can't know that.
" The former students were there to get their level 3.... Just like SZ. They all were"
Thank you, Just saw they weren't paid for that time an wondered. Trying to figure why Dyatlov didn't file the last of his paperwork=the route map, seems they had to put it together from memory.
@Loose-Cannon - "There is never going to be anything conclusive in this case... Only probable."
Agreed, but it's fun to chew over and make the case for your favourite theory, having someone to contest it with sharpens the thinking and improves the result. Since we've been arguing i've learnt a lot about the DPI and assumed facts.
"FYI... Its completely unnatural to fall with a closed fist, just like it is to lay down on a hill with your feet towards the summit."
When i broke my leg skiing i was going fast enough to be flying through the air and on landing found myself skiing downhill with a broken tibia. This gives one a problem, how to stop travelling downhill on one good leg.. So i took the biggest swallow dive ever (not easy on 1.95m skis off one leg on these - https://images.evo.com/imgp/700/1446/157991/k2-seth-vicious-skis-2006.jpg .) and came to a stop after a long slide facing downhill with my arms protecting my head and clenched fists (adding a broken fibula to the list). If i had expired at that point that's how they would have found me. True i didn't and the pain of two broken ends of my tibia scraping past each other as the muscle contracted got me turned round real quick to use gravity to counter it but you get the idea. It all depends on what happens and how gravity reduces the pain
Rustem had a 1litre of internal bleeding same as Semyon. So quite plausible imo that he was further away from the ravine explosion but the shockwave tore his rib muscle et al and he collapsed and died with the same degree of internal bleeding as Semyon. So it fits he was trying to get back to the tent with Zina. The clenched fist indicating pain.
"Your lies are old but you fell them well. "
I'm no lies Nige...
I've read that novella you posted. I see 2 killed sat by in amazement, they didn't jump out windows..seems they headed for shelter and those outside froze in fear. Quite different how the hikers reacted, no?
If your claim is BL is respnsible for the RAV4..how did it involve Alex, he died of exposure and Luddy it's explained, she fell or ran into a ledge. "Death is forcible." <---- what's that mean, tried to look it up couldn't find. :c{
FYI... Its completely unnatural to fall with a closed fist, just like it is to lay down on a hill with your feet towards the summit.
Your lies are old but you fell them well.
"Ah... ambiguous."
That's the DPI for you. What's not ambiguous is that they built a fire which is somewhat at odds with the murder most foul theories. Don't see that getting mentioned much in this War and Peace of injury stuff.
"This is a jamming injury to the hand... No doubt about it."
What like when you slip badly and stick your hand in a rock?
"Its a whole host of injuries that are 100% consistent with hand/hand combat. "
Its a whole host of injuries that are 100% ambiguous with hand/hand combat. Nearly all the right words and spelling is correct...
"you should remember you have already had to eat crow numerous times in the past few weeks."
Yes and i'm eating crow becuase I'M finding errors in stated facts which is more than you have done. But nothing to change the overall BL theory, just details.
"and I think you keep forgetting they were found NEXT TO A FIRE."
Yes that's why i used the word ambiguous...
"Three more to go!"
and nothing conclusive so far
"the second metacarpal bone is an abrasion 2 x 1.5 cm in size, brownish-colored with hemorrhages in the underlying soft tissues".
NOTE: Right index finger abrasion along with some serious damage to the underlying tissue. This is... In fact what happens when you punch something, or someone... Along with swelling of the back of the hand. This is a jamming injury to the hand... No doubt about it.
Its not just one busted lip Nigel. Its a whole host of injuries that are 100% consistent with hand/hand combat. Instead of ignoring the overwhelming evidence of fighting injuries, you should remember you have already had to eat crow numerous times in the past few weeks.
They nearly ALL have these injuries consistent with fighting across the hands and face/head. Amazing how selective BL would be when nobody even knows what BL consists of. :/ I would also presume the medical examiners would know what an electrical burn looks like vs a fire burn, and I think you keep forgetting they were found NEXT TO A FIRE.
Three more to go!
@KMM.
"It was forming the impression that, when the hikers, at their feet, descended down the mountain, SOMEBODY intentionally ended some of them"
Very interesting quote from Nigels role model.... Perhaps he should either listen, or realize he daddy was the entire season we are talking about it in the first place. Ivanov couldn't solve how he got up in the morning. We all know it including Nigel... He's just in a perpetual state of denial.
As said many times now they're all ambiguous, burnt hair could be from the fire, could be from BL. The pulmonary edema could be from falling or electrocution from BL... The split lip is a combat wound but falling out of a tree could do it. There's not one individual where it is clear they they got beaten up, all ambiguous which lends the evidence to a non combat scenario imo and in Ivanov's.
Also imo it's a stretch that these tough resilient kids should both end up dead with burns and edema from falling out of a tree. Accidents do happen, but i'm finding this hard to swallow. But there was human skin/flesh on the tree and YuriK lived long enough afterwards to bite the back of his hand dealing with the pain. But i'd put my money on something other than a human accident, maybe even superhuman...
N.B. the gore could be from his brain expanding, bursting into the sinus area and running out of his nose. This is relevant to Rustems fracture if his sinuses didn't burst then the skull might crack. http://www.rjlm.ro/system/revista/15/199-202.pdf .
btw it's spelt "specific", here endeth the lesson
Or wait.... You cant, that's? it.... Gotcha
https://sites.google.com/site/hibinaud/home/akt-issledovania-trupa-dorosenko-uria .
"On the left leg are two pairs of knitted light brown socks, with rips in the area of ??the rear of the foot and ankle joint; woolen socks are white, with a heel trimmed, in the area of ??the forefoot on the toe, there is a burnt area of ??2 х 5 cm in dark brown color".
NOTE: Burnt toe area of left sock. Unknown if the toe itself is burned.
"On the right leg, the remnants of a cotton sock with an elastic band are the same color as the one on the left. Wool white socks. On the inner surface of the panties there is a marking label with the inscription STS1313".
NOTE: Thats an odd brand name for a pair of undies. :/ But I digress! .
"In the right temporo-parietal and occipital region there is a burning area of ??the ends of the hair, the hair is stained with remains of moss and needles of coniferous trees".
NOTE: Ends of the hair on the right side above and behind the ear are burned.
"In the region of the back of the nose, the tip of the nose and the upper lip, there are traces of discharge of gore".
NOTE: Not very spicific as to what the 'gore' actually is, but I would imagine blood is involved. Blood/snot... You get the idea.
"Upper lip swelling, in the red portion of the upper lip hemorrhage dark red measuring 1.5 x 2 cm".
NOTE: Swollen upper lip thats busted... Hemorrhaging... Blood.
"In the area of ??the right cheek, soft tissues are covered with a layer of frothy gray liquid, from the mouth of the mouth there are traces of discharge of liquid of gray color".
NOTE: Fairly strange.... Literally foaming out of the mouth when died. Pretty sure this is where the pulmonary edema comes from. "Pulmonary edema is a condition caused by excess fluid in the lungs. This fluid collects in the numerous air sacs in the lungs, making it difficult to breathe. In most cases, heart problems cause pulmonary edema." Fairly important information I would say.
"on the inner surface of the right shoulder in the middle third are two abrasions measuring 2 x 1.5 cm. brown color of parchment density of irregular shape, without hemorrhages in the underlying tissues. In the area of ??these abrasions two cuts of linear are made".
NOTE: Minor cuts and Abrasions outer collar bone/arm region likely caused by carrying a heavy pack. Had this myself in the usmc plenty of times. Yuri was a fairly big dude and likely carried the tent, which would be the heaviest load. You can see him carrying it in this pic... For the last time. http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Krivonischenko-camera-film1-31.jpg .
"On the front surface of the right shoulder, small bruises of reddish color in the form of strips measuring 4 x 1 cm, 2.5 x 1.5 cm and 5 x 0.5 cm and minor abrasions in the lower third of the right forearm".
NOTE: Right shoulder same as above, and and minor abrasions of the forearm.
"In the area of ??the rear of the right hand, soft tissue swelling and minor abrasions. At the rear of the hand".
NOTE: Back of the right hand is swollen with abrasions.
"the second metacarpal bone is an abrasion 2 x 1.5 cm in size, brownish-colored with hemorrhages in the underlying soft tissues".
NOTE: Right index finger abrasion along with some serious damage to the underlying tissue. This is... In fact what happens when you punch something, or someone... Along with swelling of the back of the hand. This is a jamming injury to the hand... No doubt about it.
"On the lateral surfaces of the left elbow joint, small abrasions of a burgundy color of parchment density and abrasions of the same color 2 x 3 cm in size with traces of slip in the form of bands parallel to each other".
NOTE: Abrasion of the elbow.. could be from anything.
"On the inner surface of the left forearm on the border of the middle third and the lower third, the cutaneous wound of an irregular oval shape measuring 0.6 x 0.5 cm, its edges slightly pinched and covered with gore, under the wound marks of gore. A cut was made in the region of this wound, where a hemorrhage in the underlying soft tissues was detected".
NOTE: cutaneous..... 'of the skin'. Deep nasty pusy wound with underlying bleeding with a raised outer rim... Like a volcano crater rim.
"Soft tissue in the area of ??the rear of the left hand is slightly swollen reddish-colored. End phalanx of fingers of hands dark-blue color".
NOTE: Swollen back of left hand, and the ending segments of the fingers have early signs of frostbite. Bet ya 100 rubles he is right handed.
"Soft tissues in the area of ??the terminal phalanges of the toes of the foot are dark-colored".
NOTE: Ends of all toes showing signs of frostbite.
"The aperture of the anus and the urethra are clean".
NOTE: Yeah... Too much information!!!
Ok... Yuri-D wasn't in 'that' bad of shape. He had a few easily explainable bumps and scrapes, but he obviously punched the living shit out of 'something' or 'someone', and received a nice busted lip.
The real interesting ones are yet to come
A STRANGE TRAGEDY ON THE MALVERN HILLS
If the GLO ‘Fireball’ might be compared to an aerial bomb, artillery shell, or depth-charge, and the ‘Apparition’ to a floating mine, then the ‘Roller’ is perhaps best described as the ‘battle tank’ of these phenomenal invaders. The following case, surely one of the weirdest and most chilling events of a phenomenal nature ever recorded, certainly bears out the latter analogy.
On a fine day at the height of the English summer, the three daughters and the eldest son of Joseph Hill, a wealthy resident of Lindridge, an attractive village in the valley of the River Teme, Worcestershire, set out for a walk over the nearby Malvern Hills. They were accompanied by several young ladies, staying as guests of the family, and a manservant bearing their provisions in a small handcart.
Around 15:00, the party reached the Worcestershire Beacon, at 425 meters above sea level the highest point in the range, and upon which there was a solitary building that had been erected on the orders of a Lady Harcourt. The robust structure, designed as a storm shelter and intended for the use of people walking on the hills, was built of stone and covered with a roof of iron plates. It consisted of a single room with a stone table in the centre and seats on each side; it had two apertures: a doorway and a window sited opposite the door.
Shortly after their arrival the sky took on an ominous appearance, and soon a great and furious electric storm advanced upon the hill. Brilliant discharges of lightning flashed from the skies almost incessantly, producing a succession of thunderclaps, the violence of which was so great as to make the ground itself shudder. Quite understandably the young people became fearful of being in the open at the mercy of the elements, and the entire party, with the exception of the servant, abandoned their picnic and fled into the shelter. No doubt feeling reasonably secure once they were within its sturdy walls, Eliza and Joannah Hill, and a friend, Ellen Woodyatt of Hereford, seated themselves at the table, while the rest stood and waited for the storm to pass. What none could have been aware of was the approach of a menacing phenomenon with all the energetic potential of the deadliest lightning bolt ever hurled into the earth, and yet so lethally different from an ordinary electrical discharge that it rendered those within as vulnerable as the poor servant left outside to face the tempest.
After a while, Margaret Hill, aged about 15, who had been extremely upset by the storm, went to the door hoping to see some sign that the disturbance was moving away.
Deliverance, however, was certainly not at hand instead she saw the remorseless approach of a thing unearthly and absolutely terrifying: a huge ball of ‘electric fire’ was rolling at high velocity along the surface of the hill, and directly towards the entrance of the party’s retreat! So rapid was the advance of this dreadful object that no sooner had the poor girl recovered from her initial shock, and before she could alert those within, it was upon her and she was hurled violently to the ground. Quite remarkably, though her shoes, and part of her dress, were burned, Margaret survived. Her brother, who had been standing nearby, was injured in much the same manner.
Some other members of the party, however, were tragically and quite horribly less fortunate. The rolling fireball rushed into the building through the doorway and struck the stone table, which was instantly shattered into fragments. It then passed straight across the room and exited through the window, tearing out the frame and surrounding stonework. In its passage, the rampaging fireball also smashed apart many of the large stones that comprised the walls. Of the three young women seated around the table, two, Eliza and Ellen, were killed on the spot, and Joannah was left apparently more dead than alive.
The horror of the scene left the manservant, who alone had suffered no physical injury, almost deranged. When he looked into the shelter, it must have seemed like a massacre, for all the young persons had been affected; most had been struck down and lay dead or injured on the ground. He began to scream with hysteria, his pitiful cries alerting a labourer working nearby.
This man rendered whatever assistance he could before seeking help. Eventually a physician reached the scene, examined the badly injured Joannah and, having discovered that vital signs were still present, proceeded to open a vein and relieve the victim of a quantity of blood - still a standard procedure in 1826. She was then taken to Great Malvern and lodged in the Unicorn Inn where she remained, possibly conscious but certainly unable to speak. Doctors were pessimistic as to her chances of recovery (optimism being somewhat unfashionable in the medical circles of those days).
An examination of the dead bodies, and the severe injuries to Joannah, revealed that all three had suffered burns to the face, neck, and breast, and that the hair on their heads was intact on one side while burnt off on the other. The clothes of each girl were also partly destroyed. A coroner’s inquest on the deceased would have been held within a few days, but, to the best of my knowledge, no further details were printed in subsequent issues of the two London newspapers* from which I have compiled this account.
According to a paper in the Transactions of the Worcestershire Archaeological Society for 1957, an entry in the diary of Charles Dunne (1783-1850), rector of the manor of Earl’s Croome, refers to three women having died in the tragedy, while a footnote states that the victims were a party of seven, and that all three of the Hill girls were killed along with Miss Woodyat.
The true number of fatal victims could be traced through burial records, and it is probable that at least one of the victims is interred in the churchyard at Lindridge where some form of memorial should be extant. The fate of poor Joanna is no doubt described in an article, or announcement in a local newspaper which should eventually be located.
The nature of this terrible rolling fireball, if examined in terms of conventional atmospheric physics is totally inexplicable: An ‘ordinary’ discharge of lightning would have immediately gone to earth in or close to its point of contact in a fraction of a second, but this fearsome peripatetic manifestation was sustained, coherent in form, and evidently under control.
The destruction of the stone table was an example of the awesome power of the GLO Roller, while its effects on the three victims seated around the table, demonstrates the complex nature of what was clearly a violent, yet curiously selective outpouring of energy. The dramatic fracturing of this rather formidable item of furniture would have actually been caused by heat, generated when electrical energy from the fireball penetrated this poor conductor and obstacle to its progress. Energetic discharges, projected out like tentacles, had much the same effect on the wall stones they contacted, and also removed the window and its surround in a violent but mechanical fashion.
Contact with human tissue and clothing evidently brought about an almost instantaneous change of amperage and frequency in these electric and electromagnetic projections, a factor that prevented the victims’ bodies from superheating and exploding into fragments. Whatever the nature of the mechanism housed within the envelope of the GLO, it clearly operated at a phenomenal speed and seems to have endowed the object with a crude sense of purpose.
* The Times, 07.07.1826, p3f; The Age v2, p482, 09.07.1826
above or beyond what is human; having a higher nature or greater powers than humans have:
Lev Ivanov, who conducted the subsequent investigation and closed the case, stated, "In May, together with EP Maslennikov, we inspected the vicinity of the scene of the incident (in the area of ??the ravine and cedar), noting that some of the new spruce at the edge of the forest have burn marks, but such traces did not have a concentric shape or any other shape system, nor did they have an epicenter. This confirms that some kind of heat ray or strong energy, but completely unknown (at least for us), has been directed, acting selectively: the snow has not been melted, the trees have not been damaged. It was forming the impression that, when the hikers, at their feet, descended down the mountain, somebody intentionally ended some of them
#2 Its says right there in the quote 'political AND CRIMINAL'
#3 Am I to believe everything Russia says or does?
#4 Your stupid list shows when administrators began their term.
#5Your entire rant is irrelevant because an escaped prisoner in 1950 can still be evading the authorities in 1959. If they were to stop building cars today, would that mean all existing cars prior are non existent?
God have mercy this is stupid!
my typo you cited as if I thought Khrushchev closed the gulags BEFORE HE WAS BORN -- not worth anything more than an "oops" -- I have bad eyesighrt and didn't see the typo. -- should read 1956, and not 1856.
--- The Gulag institution was closed by the MVD order No 020 of January 25, 1960 but forced labor colonies for political and criminal prisoners continued to exist. Political prisoners continued to be kept in one of the most famous camps Perm-36 until 1987 when it was closed."
-- um ... you could claim political prisoners are everywhere, even in the USA.
--- also --- Perm-36 is outside Moscow and is over 1,000 miles from where the hikers were.
--- from the wiki site you posted --- note the last date (April 4, 1956) for administration of the gulags --- anything after that date was illegal and subject to immediate shut-down.
Gulag administrators
Name
Years[78][79][80]
Feodor (Teodors) Ivanovich Eihmans April 25, 1930 – June 16, 1930
Lazar Iosifovich Kogan June 16, 1930 – June 9, 1932
Matvei Davidovich Berman June 9, 1932 – August 16, 1937
Israel Israelevich Pliner August 16, 1937 – November 16, 1938
Gleb Vasilievich Filaretov November 16, 1938 – February 18, 1939
Vasili Vasilievich Chernyshev February 18, 1939 – February 26, 1941
Victor Grigorievich Nasedkin February 26, 1941 – September 2, 1947
Georgiy Prokopievich Dobrynin September 2, 1947 – January 31, 1951
Ivan Ilyich Dolgich January 31, 1951 – October 5, 1954
Sergei Yegorovich Yegorov October 5, 1954 – April 4, 1956
In tonight's post we will observe the body of Yuri Doroshenko. The long time lover of Zina and quite possibly the trigger for Igors issues. Lets do this.
https://sites.google.com/site/hibinaud/home/akt-issledovania-trupa-dorosenko-uria .
"On the left leg are two pairs of knitted light brown socks, with rips in the area of ??the rear of the foot and ankle joint; woolen socks are white, with a heel trimmed, in the area of ??the forefoot on the toe, there is a burnt area of ??2 х 5 cm in dark brown color".
NOTE: Burnt toe area of left sock. Unknown if the toe itself is burned.
"On the right leg, the remnants of a cotton sock with an elastic band are the same color as the one on the left. Wool white socks. On the inner surface of the panties there is a marking label with the inscription STS1313".
NOTE: Thats an odd brand name for a pair of undies. :/ But I digress! .
"In the right temporo-parietal and occipital region there is a burning area of ??the ends of the hair, the hair is stained with remains of moss and needles of coniferous trees".
NOTE: Ends of the hair on the right side above and behind the ear are burned.
"In the region of the back of the nose, the tip of the nose and the upper lip, there are traces of discharge of gore".
NOTE: Not very spicific as to what the 'gore' actually is, but I would imagine blood is involved. Blood/snot... You get the idea.
"Upper lip swelling, in the red portion of the upper lip hemorrhage dark red measuring 1.5 x 2 cm".
NOTE: Swollen upper lip thats busted... Hemorrhaging... Blood.
"In the area of ??the right cheek, soft tissues are covered with a layer of frothy gray liquid, from the mouth of the mouth there are traces of discharge of liquid of gray color".
NOTE: Fairly strange.... Literally foaming out of the mouth when died. Pretty sure this is where the pulmonary edema comes from. "Pulmonary edema is a condition caused by excess fluid in the lungs. This fluid collects in the numerous air sacs in the lungs, making it difficult to breathe. In most cases, heart problems cause pulmonary edema." Fairly important information I would say.
"on the inner surface of the right shoulder in the middle third are two abrasions measuring 2 x 1.5 cm. brown color of parchment density of irregular shape, without hemorrhages in the underlying tissues. In the area of ??these abrasions two cuts of linear are made".
NOTE: Minor cuts and Abrasions outer collar bone/arm region likely caused by carrying a heavy pack. Had this myself in the usmc plenty of times. Yuri was a fairly big dude and likely carried the tent, which would be the heaviest load. You can see him carrying it in this pic... For the last time. http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Krivonischenko-camera-film1-31.jpg .
"On the front surface of the right shoulder, small bruises of reddish color in the form of strips measuring 4 x 1 cm, 2.5 x 1.5 cm and 5 x 0.5 cm and minor abrasions in the lower third of the right forearm".
NOTE: Right shoulder same as above, and and minor abrasions of the forearm.
"In the area of ??the rear of the right hand, soft tissue swelling and minor abrasions. At the rear of the hand".
NOTE: Back of the right hand is swollen with abrasions.
"the second metacarpal bone is an abrasion 2 x 1.5 cm in size, brownish-colored with hemorrhages in the underlying soft tissues".
NOTE: Right index finger abrasion along with some serious damage to the underlying tissue. This is... In fact what happens when you punch something, or someone... Along with swelling of the back of the hand. This is a jamming injury to the hand... No doubt about it.
"On the lateral surfaces of the left elbow joint, small abrasions of a burgundy color of parchment density and abrasions of the same color 2 x 3 cm in size with traces of slip in the form of bands parallel to each other".
NOTE: Abrasion of the elbow.. could be from anything.
"On the inner surface of the left forearm on the border of the middle third and the lower third, the cutaneous wound of an irregular oval shape measuring 0.6 x 0.5 cm, its edges slightly pinched and covered with gore, under the wound marks of gore. A cut was made in the region of this wound, where a hemorrhage in the underlying soft tissues was detected".
NOTE: cutaneous..... 'of the skin'. Deep nasty pusy wound with underlying bleeding with a raised outer rim... Like a volcano crater rim.
"Soft tissue in the area of ??the rear of the left hand is slightly swollen reddish-colored. End phalanx of fingers of hands dark-blue color".
NOTE: Swollen back of left hand, and the ending segments of the fingers have early signs of frostbite. Bet ya 100 rubles he is right handed.
"Soft tissues in the area of ??the terminal phalanges of the toes of the foot are dark-colored".
NOTE: Ends of all toes showing signs of frostbite.
"The aperture of the anus and the urethra are clean".
NOTE: Yeah... Too much information!!!
Ok... Yuri-D wasn't in 'that' bad of shape. He had a few easily explainable bumps and scrapes, but he obviously punched the living shit out of 'something' or 'someone'. No real issues of any kind to the face etc, so I imagine? he was a giver and not a taker.
The real interesting ones are yet to come.
Well, if the force is "superhuman," it ain't BL! ;cP
To give you your due. After having read some of the witness accounts on hibinaud, I can now see the connection to your BL obsession...
One witness said they saw a circular cloud that grew in size so much so, he thought planets were colliding.
Or could one of these ....
http://news.sky.com/story/meteor-team-of-20000-sent-to-ural-mountains-10454500
@John Wolfe, Being a fan of reality myself an FYI, Khrushchev was born in 1894.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag .
"The Gulag institution was closed by the MVD order No 020 of January 25, 1960 but forced labor colonies for political and criminal prisoners continued to exist. Political prisoners continued to be kept in one of the most famous camps Perm-36 until 1987 when it was closed."
I forgot to add to the comment (see below this) ..... according to the trolls ...... all this was covered up by the Soviet Government because they found out it was carried out by their own KGB in an effort to hide secret weapons testing which leaves no evidence (other than strange injuries) and was designed to confuse the American CIA agent who just happened to be in the area to pick up a sample of "radioactive" material from a defector --- thus, this assassination of the nine counter-revolutionary hikers was assigned to the Mansi (modern, and quite friendly, Siberian hunter-gatherers / tribesmen / they're also good drinkers) who hired Yeti (abomdidibaomdidibomadbale snow-men) who don't actually exist but existed long enough to hand it off to space aliens -- WHO USED BALL LIGHTNING TO ATTACK THE HIKERS ! (and thus thoroughly confuse this writer) -- the very same space aliens, who, I might add, are sick to death of internet trolls. (I know, I know, I know ....... the internet wasn't conceived until the mid-1960's, and utilizing software developed in the 1970's, was privately implemented in the late 1980's and made public in the early 1990's ....... but the space aliens have a time machine !)
Hey look! I've got to go off to my star-system for a while -- I'll write some more a few days ago ... when I have some more .......time
-- this is actually a good idea -- I will be suggesting this to the Ural State Technical University this winter -- and yes, it is a frightening idea -- ball lightning, that is -- though some trolls prefer to fear invisible attackers who don't leave footprints anywhere in the area, who have no motivation to torture and kill nine hikers, who wield superhuman strength and produce air-burst like injuries designed to fool .......... fools.
5 nights of autopsy reports.... Post 2 coming up in just a few hrs.
YURI DOROSHENKO
2. ear, nose and lips are covered with blood <<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT
3. swollen upper lip with dark red hemorrhage <<<<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT
4. right cheek soft tissue covered with gray foam; gray liquid coming form his open mouth. Most apparent cause is pulmonary edema. (Pulmonary Edema.... Fluid in lungs... Common when starved of oxygen) <<<<<<< CHOKED THE FRICK OUT
7. right armpit has a bruise 2x1.5 cm <<<<<<<< FIGHTING
8. brown-red bruises with size 4x1 cm, 2.5x1.5 cm, 5x5 cm in the upper third of right forearm <<<<<<< FIGHTING
9. swelling and small abrasions in the rear of the right hand soft tissue <<<<<<< KICKING SOMEONES ASS
10. bruise with bleeding into the underlying soft tissue on the back of the right hand corresponding to the second metacarpal bone <<<< KICKING SOMEONES ASS
14. on the inner surface of the left forearm there is a surface skin wound covered with dried blood <<<<<<<<< BLOCKING/FIGHTING
15. similar bruises in pale red color on the shins of both legs <<<<<<< FIGHTING GROUND WRESTLE
YURI KRIVONISCHENKO
1. bruises on the forehead 0.3x1.8 cm <<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT
2. diffuse bleeding in the right temporal and occipital region due to damage to temporalis muscle <<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT
3. bruise around left temporal bone <<<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT
7. back of the right hand is swollen, fingers are brownish-purple <<<<<<< KICKING THAT ASS
14. dark red abrasions on left wrist, back of the left hand is swollen <<<<<<<<< KICKING THAT ASS
16.three linear skin lesions with straight edges, sharp corners and depth up to 0.3 cm on the inner side of the upper third of the left thigh <<< FIGHTING, POSSIBLE TREE CLIMBING
17. three cutaneous wounds with sharp corners on the inner side of the upper third of the left hip <<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT
18. dark brown abrasion on the front of the right femur and tibia <<<<< FIGHTING OR BIG FALL
19. dark brown-red abrasions on the front-inner left thigh <<<<<<< FIGHTING OR BIG FALL
IGOR DYATLOV
1. minor abrasions on the forehead <<<<<< FIGHTING BEAT UP
2. minor abrasions on the upper eyelids <<<<<<< FIGHTING BEAT UP
3. brown-red abrasions above the left eyebrow <<<<<<<< FIGHTING BEAT UP
4. minor abrasions on the left cheek <<<<<<<< FIGHTING BEAT UP
5. brown-red abrasions on both cheeks <<<<<<<< FIGHTING BEAT UP
6. dried blood on lips <<<<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT
8. bruised knees without bleeding into the UNDERLYING tissues <<<<<< FIGHTING WRESTLING
9. both ankles had brownish red abrasions, size 1x0.5 cm and 3x2.5 cm with hemorrhage into the 10. underlying tissue <<<<<< FIGHTING POSSIBLE DRAGGING
10. single incision 4x2 cm in the lower third of the right tibia <<<<<< FIGHTING CUT WOUND
11. many small scratches of dark red color on the lower third of the right forearm and palm surface <<<<<<< FIGHTING
13. metacarpophalangeal joints on the right hand had brown red bruises. This is common injury in hand to hand fights. To get a better idea of the injuries just make a fist. This is the part of the hand which you use to hit someone. <<<<<< FIGHTING!!!!!!
14. left hand is brown-purple color with brownish-red bruises <<<< FIGHTING
15. superficial wounds on the 2nd and 5th finger on the left hand <<<<<<< FIGHTING
16. skin wound in the palmar surface of the 2nd 5th finger of left hand <<<<<<< FIGHTING
ZINAIDA KOLMOGOROVA
1. dark red abrasion on the right frontal eminence <<<<< BEAT TO SHIT
2. pale gray area 3x2 cm above the right eyebrow <<<<< STRANGE
3. dark red abrasion on the upper eyelids <<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT
4. brown red graze on the bridge and tip of the nose <<<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT
5. numerous abrasions on the left cheekbone <<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT
6. bruised skin on the right side of the face <<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT
7. brown-red abrasion on the back of both hands in the area of metacarpal phalangeal and inter-phalangeal joints <<<<<< KICKING THAT ASS
8. wound with jagged edges and missing skin on the back of the right hand at the base of the third finger <<<<<<< KICKING THAT ASS
10. a long BRIGHT red bruise 29x6 cm in the lumbar region on the right side of the torso. The bruise looks like left from a baton <<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT..... BATON, BRIGHT RED, FRESH, NOT DAYS OLD, BIG FUGGIN STICK WACK.
RUSTEM SLOBODIN
1. hemorrhages in the temporalis muscles <<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT
2. minor brownish red abrasions on the forehead <<<<<< FIGHTING
3. two scratches are 1.5 cm long at the distance of 0.3 cm between them
4. brownish red bruise on the upper eyelid of the right eye with hemorrhage into the UNDERLYING tissues <<<< BEAT TO SHIT
5. traces of blood discharge from the nose <<<<< BEAT TO SHIT
6. SWELLING and a lot of small abrasions on both sides of the face <<<<<< GOOD GOD BEAT TO SHIT
7. bruises in the metacarpophalangeal joints on both hands. Similar bruises are common in hand to hand combat <<<< KICKING THAT ASS
8. brown cherry bruises on the medial aspect of the left arm and left palm <<<<<<< FIGHTING
9. SWOLEN lips. <<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT
10. bruises on the left tibia in dimensions at 2.5x1.5 cm (not shown on diagram) <<<<< LITERALLY KICKING.... THAT ASS
11. epidermis is torn from the right forearm (not shown on diagram) <<<<< FIGHTING, KICKING ASS
12. fracture of the frontal bone 6x0.1 cm located 1.5 cm from the sagittal suture (showing on separate skull trauma diagram without numbers) BEAT TO SHIT, BLOW TO HEAD, FIGHT OVER, CAN BE DONE WITH FIST, ROCK, LOG, BOOT, YOU PICK
AND THATS JUST THE 5 NOT ROTTED BEYOND RECOGNITION.
LOL - Well go and reread your post - 03-09-2017 23:14 (GMT)
@Lyndasez - you've confused me again.
The info about the fall is from 2 sites, you determine.
". Doroshenko was lying on his stomach. Beneath it found a broken branch of a tree from falling into several pieces." -hibinaud
"Remains of a fire under old cedar with branches broken up to 5 m high suggesting that hikers had climbed up to look for something or to hide from someone." -this site. 16ft
Never have I claimed the 2Yuris died from falling from the cedar, nor have I suggested their other injuries directly resulted in their deaths. You have an opinion that BL spicifically targets the back of hands and the face of its victims. I am of the opinion that there very well have been a tree climbing exercise, but some of these injuries are a clear sign of possible fight, i.e 'hand/hand combat'.
We all know from their photo evidence that these injuries were not present in the days prior, and you shouldn't get them by pitching a tent in deep snow or walking down a hill.
You have your opinion and now we should hear from the rest of the board what they think.
We have several more victims to go through.....
When I was 7 years old, I fell out a tree and snapped my elbow. Yeah... I was a climber.
What's curious here is both the Yuris seem to die early in the sequence of events. That's pushing probabilities imo.
They could both be involved in the fall but both dying?
Normally I would agree, but not with this... Way too many of said injuries to be causes by one fall.
@KMM - my theory would have it that Igor waited too long for the Zina and Rustem to return and was suffering from hypothermia = confusion. He seems to have been stopped ascending by small thicket, i.e. too confused to navigate around.
@LC - if these guys have fallen out of a tree then split lips etc are explainable. Ivanov mentions that there was a small piece of flesh hanging from the cedar, looks a really bad slide/fall.
"Death violent - unhappy happening"
https://sites.google.com/site/hibinaud/home/akt-issledovania-trupa-krivonisenko-g .
"The left-hand lower half pants offline until the level of the knee joint, the edge of the fabric pants in areas breakage pants misaligned with charring the fabric." .
NOTE: Good to know... His left outer pant leg was missing up to the knee with a jagged charred edge.
"in an outer pocket a coil of copper wire and silk pink ribbon." .
NOTE: I thought this was a bit odd, but whatever .
"On the left leg cotton sock torn, the edges of his charred." .
NOTE: Charred left sock also.
"In the left temporal region there are two abrasions of a brownish-red color of parchment density, with a size of 1.2 by ?, 3 cm and 1 cm by 0.2 cm" .
NOTE: Abrasions on the left temple.. welp somehow they got there! You decide.
In the middle third of the nose, a brown-red abrasion , parchment density, passing into the wound in the tip of the nose and wings with a defect of soft tissues measuring 1.8 x 2 cm.
NOTE: Another abrasion. This one on the nose that goes right up to the point the tip of nose being missing. I do agree the missing tip of nose was from scavengers.
"Mucous lips of dark-cinnamon- colored parchment density, the mouth is closed, lips are swollen. Behind the lower." .
NOTE: Swollen lips!! I don't think its possible for ship rats to swell up lips in extreme sub-zero temps.
"Behind the lower teeth flap epidermis pale gray color with papillary lines size of flap 1.8 to 0.6 cm." .
NOTE: Cut lower lip into top two layers if skin... And size. The size is nearly 3/4 of an inch for all you non Brits. Thats one hell of a busted lip! .
"on the cheeks abrasion dark brown color parchment density" .
NOTE: More abrasions to the face... More ship rat carnage? You decide .
"The auricles are swollen with a cyanotic red color" .
NOTE: Red and Swollen ears!! Again... Swelling in sub temps.
"On the right side surface of the rib cage at the level of the axillary cavities abrasions of pale red color measuring 7 by 2 cm, without hemorrhages in the underlying tissues." .
NOTE: More abrasions.... Right side of mid rib cage. Not so deep.
"At the rib margin of the right hypochondrium along the middle clavicle line abrasions of pale red color of parchment density of 2 x 1.2 cm size 1 x 1.2 cm, without hemorrhages in the underlying tissues." .
NOTE: Another abrasion. Upper right chest inline with nipple. Not that deep
"The rear of the right hand is swollen. In the region of the metacarpophalangeal joints, soft tissues are whitish -gray in color, the fingers burolilovogo colors terminal phalanx dry dark brown color, n and rear of these fingers minor skin abrasions dark brown color parchment density. Palmar surface of the right hand bluish-red color with skin Ranko with jagged edges dark brown color at the base of the first finger. On the middle phalanx of the third (forwarded from the "average" - note). finger defect of the epidermis in shape and size coinciding with that found in the oral cavity".
NOTE: Right hand swollen, blueish red color, jagged cut at base of index finger.... And a big chunk of the back of his hand missing...... Matches the chunk of skin found stuck in his own teeth.
"In the area of ??the left wrist joint, grazes of dark red color of parchment density of 5 x 2.5 cm, the rear of the left hand swelling".
NOTE: Swollen left hand.
"Along the whole width of the rear - the left hand scalp wound with delaminated epidermis dark brown color parchment density measuring 8 x 2 cm".
NOTE: Big damn cut roughly 3" by .75" above and behind the left ear.
"Rear fingers 2-5 left brush black color with wrinkled epidermis 5 thumb and dried up end phalanges. On the palmar surface, the soft tissues of the terminal phalanges are dried, dense. On average phalanges 4-5 fingers a skin wound of 1.5 x 1 cm and 1 x 0.5 cm of dark brown color, dense to the touch with charring".
NOTE: Dried up... Frostbite.... Down to the bone in fact. Phalanges are the bones within the hand. Sounds like some burning also. Poor dude burnt his hand trying to prevent frostbite and failed.
"On the outer surface of the left buttock and the left thigh are areas of soft tissues of pink color and brown color of parchment density with a sliding epidermis on the site size 10 x 3 cm, 6 x 2 cm and 4 x 5 cm".
NOTE: Basically another big ass abrasion... On the butt/thigh.
"On the antero-internal surface of the thigh abrasions of dark brown dark-red color of parchment density in size ? x 2 cm. 1 x 1.5 cm, and more small".
NOTE: Same left thigh, inner abrasion... Smaller then the outer thigh/butt abrasion.
"On the inner surface of the upper third of the left thigh, three skin lesions ??? eynoy shape with smooth edges depth up to 0.3 cm. with sharp angles size of 1.5 to 04 cm. Left shin and ??? and swollen".
NOTE: Strange lacerations and swelling of the upper 1/3 of the inner left thigh. Could quite possibly be from climbing a tree.... Ill give ya that one Nigel.
NOTE: Big ass burn on lower shin/calf of leg... I thought it was the right, but this says left.
"On the posteromedial surface of the left lower leg abrasions dark brown color parchment density measuring 8 x 1.3 cm. ? x 1.5 cm and 2 x 1 cm".
NOTE: Abrasion on the mid section of left calf
"The rear of the left foot is brown- brown in color with epidermis peeling sites measuring 10 x 4 cm. ??? The second finger is charred dark brown the color of the fabric ????? are dense to the touch".
NOTE: Left heel skin peeling... More of the burn I believe. The ring-toe is charred
"On the front surface of the right thigh and lower leg, abrasions dark brown color of parchment density of 5 x 2 cm. 3 x 8 cm, 7 x 1 cm, and 2 x ? cm".
NOTE: 4 Abrasions down the front of right leg.
Some of these injuries can be from climbing a tree or scuffling about in the woods etc, but the hand wounds, and swelling along with the cut lip, head, swollen lips and ears tell me he was in a scuffle with someone or something. You won't get this many external issues from one fall out a tree and he was in perfect health via photographic evidence in the days prior. He obtained all these injuries that fateful night.
Nigel : My error, all three had fb on their fingers but none on their toes so no need for taking shoes off anyone which is how this got started
You don't need frostbite to tell you your toes are freezing (cold) !
(Missing finger and blood blood blood. Sad)
Yes, I think this is one of the cedar Yuris, one climbed the tree, tried to hang on, caught a branch on the way down ripping off finger and accompanying skin to the back of his hand and tears to the legs.
@Nigel Evans
@LC et al - Repeating my previous post :-
(This relevant to your (and others?) frequent claims that there is obvious signs of combat. According to the above there isn't any at all, ever, and posters claiming otherwise need to see a doctor or explain why the official report is incorrect. Only the rav4 die from violence, probably superhuman but possibly not.)
Yes, Nigel, I see sticks n stones caused the injuries to the tent3 an cedar2...and speeding cars and blomb blasts hit the Rav3...No mention of possible "ball lighting." So your theory is out the window!
https://sites.google.com/site/hibinaud/home/protokol-osmotra-mesta-proissestvia
My error, all three had fb on their fingers but none on their toes so no need for taking shoes off anyone which is how this got started.
I stand corrected
That's the finding. RS could have been "lucky" that he further away from the explosion that killed the rav4 so something like a chunk of snow or ice hit him on one side pushing his head against something else, maybe the ground maybe a tree. The fracture could also have been due to freezing.
Whatever, this whole combat thinking is divorced from the official reports. Officially it never happened.
"Based on the data of the study, the corpse of Citizen DYATLOV Igor Alekseevich, 23 years old,"
" bladder, frostbite of the fingers of the extremities III and IV degree."
All 3 Zina, Rustem and Igor....
(which says he died of freezing and his fracture IS NOT attributed to violence.)
Agreed. He died of exposure, after something
cracked up both sides the head and stunned him to a crawl....
"The death of Slobodin is violent - an accident."
Same link... Look under the left column, at the top you will find the other autopsy reports... Scroll down on each one because the SECOND autopsy of the internals are there aswell.
"The fracture of the left frontal bone found during internal investigation could occur when a citizen of Slobodin fell or a bruise of the head area about solid objects, such as stones, ice and so on. This closed trauma of the skull is caused by a blunt instrument. At the time of its appearance, it undoubtedly caused a state of short-term stunning of SLOBODIN and facilitated the fastest freezing of SLOBODINE. The absence of a pronounced cerebral hemorrhage gives reason to believe that the death of SLOBODIN occurred precisely as a result of its freezing.
Body injuries found on the body of a citizen Slobodina, in the form of abrasions, scratches, and sieges are caused by a blunt instrument as a result of a fall or bruise on stones, ice and so on.
Damage was caused both during life, as well as in the agonal state and posthumously.
The data of the investigation of the corpse of SLOBODIN give grounds to believe that the food intake was 6-8 hours before the moment of death. The presence of alcohol during internal investigation was not detected.
-2-
Taking into account the above bodily injuries, Slobodin could move and crawl in the first hours from the moment of their infliction.
The death of Slobodin is violent - an accident."
Rustem couldn't move after being stunned by a blunt instrument ...but the injuries are on both sides of the head?!
This relevant to your (and others?) frequent claims that there is obvious signs of combat. According to the above there isn't any at all, ever, and posters claiming otherwise need to see a doctor or explain why the official report is incorrect. Only the rav4 die from violence, probably superhuman but possibly not.
BTW... Never have I stated the cedar2 or tent3 died as a result of their injuries. I simply acknowledge they have them.
Lyndasez.... Here is Rustems full file... Not just what Nigel wants you to see and think that's everything.
https://sites.google.com/site/hibinaud/home/akt-issledovania-trupa-slobodina-rustema
Really, no signs of violence, only on RAV4?!
What's this:
"Fracture of the frontal bone and hemorrhages (shaded areas) in the temporalis muscles that were found on the skull of Rustem Slobodin"
"swelling and a lot of small abrasions on both sides of the face"
"bruises in the metacarpophalangeal joints on both hands. Similar bruises are common in hand to hand combat"
Only the rav4 show any signs of violence according to the official report (from your link) :-
"Forensic medical examination found that Dyatlov, Doroshenko, Krivonischenko and Kolmogorov died from the action of low temperature (frozen), none of them had physical injuries, not counting minor scratches and abrasions. Slobodin had a crack in the skull 6 cm long, which had spread to 0.1 cm, but Slobodin died from cooling."
This relevant to your (and others?) frequent claims that there is obvious signs of combat. According to the above there isn't any at all, ever, and posters claiming otherwise need to see a doctor or explain why the official report is incorrect. Only the rav4 die from violence, probably superhuman but possibly not.
So, you turned this....
"Neither traces of the struggle nor the presence of other people were found in the tent or near it."
Into this....
"Nigel Evans 21-09-2017 18:53 (GMT)
Agreed, the official report specifically states that there were no signs of violence either at the tent or the cedar."
Nothing about the cedar Nigel... Nice little lie ya had there.
Again.... Thats your Boy Ivanov and he inspected the tent for like 39 seconds. There was also a whole mountain and valley in which blows took place.
"Based on the study of the corpse Kolevatov believe that his death came as a result of exposure to low temperature.
The body injuries found on the body of Kolevatov are in the head area - defects in soft tissues, as well as "bath" skin, are posthumous changes in a corpse that was recently found before it was found in the water.
Kolevatov's death is violent."
(Link to the page source Nigel...... Link)
Oh no, Ivanovs gut reaction was murder....then this:
"You know, Slava, it seems to me that there were two impacts of the elemental forces unknown to us: first – it was a mental impact bs it kicked them out of the tent just out of the blue, and the second – the physical impact that destroyed the three who went away from the main group”.
– Perhaps, Ivanov learned something that was a state secret?"
see...he said 3, he knew Luddy was trying to reach the others when she ran into a ledge.
" the entire den hole is a fraudulent attempt to create a narrative and hide something."
For sure! But the search party didn't dig that thing, it was there...what are the odds them setting down camp in the open breeze, when there was a pre-built encampment so close...and why weren't these kids allowed binoculars or a telescope??? Distress flare??
..a lighter??? Did they have lanterns...jeez.
I think I read similar in one of the testimonys, was it Ivanovs statement about the tent? LINK it! But the problem for your claim of 'no violence' is that its a big mountain and a big valley... And of course the autopsys? show otherwise. Where did each blow take place... On the slop, woods, creek.... No idea.b
Aha, the plot thickens! Thank you!
@KMM,
Thank you for that info...I was going by a previous post of LC....
( BTW... The depth in which the staged den floor was found IS IN THE CASE FILES. How about reading it.... No?)
Yes, but nothing about the "den" ever being used.
(Agreed, the official report specifically states that there were no signs of violence either at the tent or the cedar.)
This seems to knock out your theory then. Being hit in the gut with a super energized ball of electricity seems a pretty violent way to go!
Agreed, the official report specifically states that there were no signs of violence either at the tent or the cedar.
(With whom were the hikers engaged in "hand/hand combat?" No tracks were found other than their own and those of rescuers.)
There weren't any tracks of anyone found except for a stretch down the slope from the DP group. None around the cedar, none around the tent, none around the ravine. None from DP group or anyone else
Thank you for that info...I was going by a previous post of LC....
( BTW... The depth in which the staged den floor was found IS IN THE CASE FILES. How about reading it.... No?)
Lyndasez : :I'm starting to think they never used the den, all staged, till I find further documentation otherwise.
You won't find any, there is none.
(With whom were the hikers engaged in "hand/hand combat?" No tracks were found other than their own and those of rescuers.)
The tracks of barefoot hikers...the heat from the body melted snow beneath an left a footprint of ice. Anyone who had proper footwear, their prints could've been snowed over or brushed away.
You won't find any, there is none.
( "move the injured", he's not moving them anywhere, flail chests are extremely painful, each breath really hurts. Plus he has to strip the 2yuris so it might be considered inappropriate for Zina. Rustem might have been injured by then and not much use, as walking wounded getting him back to the tent might be best. Take your point about why not build another fire. Sending Zina back would be the gentlemenly thing to do, she'd get back to her boots and warmer clothing long before him.)
I've experienced being thrown into a wedge of shale by a running stream. Yes afterwards was put on meds to breath. However in life an death situations you take the chance, moving them to safety. Manners an customs don't apply here. Strictly live or die. I'm starting to think they never used the den, all staged, till I find further documentation otherwise.
Look at the position of his arms when frozen in death. Dude looks like he was starving for air or similar.
Leaving the tent would mean a change in elevation. They could have thought it would be better in the valley, but could have actually been worse.
The patholgist estimated that Nicolai lived for two hours but unconcious. Semyon had leather slippers maybe they didn't fit? Maybe Igor didn't need footwear because it wasn't that cold? It is one of the mysteries how Igor had no shoes or gloves but died of cold without any frostbite. Ditto Rustem, Zina had a little fb on her fingers, none on her feet.
@Lyndasez - "move the injured", he's not moving them anywhere, flail chests are extremely painful, each breath really hurts. Plus he has to strip the 2yuris so it might be considered inappropriate for Zina. Rustem might have been injured by then and not much use, as walking wounded getting him back to the tent might be best. Take your point about why not build another fire. Sending Zina back would be the gentlemenly thing to do, she'd get back to her boots and warmer clothing long before him.
The pic of SZ shows a camera case. I don't believe anywhere states there was a camera found in it. I think its stated SZ had more than 1 camera
"@LC - don't sweat it, being an "internet investigator" is meant to be fun."
I insist... It will be fun.
Don't be scared. Hey, while I'm at it... You ever think of getting together with your fellow BL theorist (particularly 8 others) and take a few weeks to explore the DP area in winter? I think you should... The BL gods are calling you.
@KMM,
As suggested, I've read the theory pg of this site. I see a few issues to address.
Firstly, you don't hand over tainted material as is, don't think they addressed that, however it could've been housed in the lining of that old military leg binding that disappeared from evidence.
Secondly, "take photos of Americans!?" No, no, first thing they'd have opened an tossed would be that camera, had they met.
Thirdly, where'd they come from, were they part of village group, police, disguised as mansi...did the hikers run out to help a distressed comrade and we're ambushed?
Yes, that theory leaves questions also
As suggested, I've read the theory pg of this site. I see a few issues to address.
Firstly, you don't hand over tainted material as is, don't think they addressed that, however it could've been housed in the lining of that old military leg binding that disappeared from evidence.
Secondly, "take photos of Americans!?" No, no, first thing they'd have opened an tossed would be that camera, had they met.
Thirdly, where'd they come from, were they part of village group, police, disguised as mansi...did the hikers run out to help a distressed comrade and we're ambushed?
Who knows, have to put the pieces of disinformation together and patchwork backwards.
And shoes should of been given to returning 3 without waiting till rav4 died. you know, voluntarily
@LC - why didn't the returning three remove shoes from the dead? Because they weren't dead. Igor immediately sent Zina and Rustem back to the tent for more stuff whilst he stayed with the rav4. When they didn't return he set off later but was overtaken by hypothermia.
Igor wasn"t wearing shoes either. All of the rav4 would of been dead by then
(Because they weren't dead. Igor immediately sent Zina and Rustem back to the tent for more stuff whilst he stayed with the rav4. When they didn't return he set off later but was overtaken by hypothermia.)
This is making less and less sense. Since Igor is the leader an strongest, he'd first make a roaring fire out of that staged "den seat," move the injured to dry and warm surroundings. Leave Zina to tend, he an Rustem would retrieve supplies.. Seems the only one to really tend would be SZ. Luddy was trying to join the 3 guys when she expired, AK I think had the snapped neck, and the coroner said, I believe SZ could've lasted up to an hour....all these guys with pencil an paper yet nothing recorded...yep no cover up here?!!!
It also amazes me you still refuse the fact humans CAN inflict the types of injuries of the rav4.
Very true, we have to rely on eye witness accounts :-
Meanwhile, the main group found dead Slobodina about 1000 m from the tent, was clothed in a ski suit, cap, socks and one boots. His head was sent to the tent,
...
On hand were abrasions and skin incisions received during falls or breaking branches.
Not fighting...
Igors position.
#1 I never claimed ALL three died traveling down slope, nor did I state NONE of them.
#2 The saplings are small.... The type of stuff you walk right through or next to. And who is to say while laying down it wasn't chosen as 'some' blockage from wind. Tiny saplings are not a deal breaker on the downslope possibility.
Nobody knows.... Not even Nigel
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (pp. 58-59). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (pp. 59-60). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
But only on Rustem, Zina and Igor? No one else. Imo some of it is a candidate for predation.
Except f course the laundry list of hand/hand combat injuries. :/
In addition... I just cannot seem to find someone laying with their feet pointed uphill. Perhaps you can help?.
https://www.la.utexas.edu/users/bump/images/Zilker/People%20on%20Barton%20Hillside.jpg
The last people to see the group alive were the loggers. These people imo in the pictures just seem.... 'off'. Like Deliverance, but 1959 Russia. 8^o The body language and facial looks of these Russian hillbillies give me the creeps! Especially the red headed bearded leader with the Manson 1000yard stare. God only knows what kinda shenanigans these weirdos were up to isolated in the backwoods. Was the group followed by the logger creeps? Did they supply them with anything? Where did the bags and bags of biscuits come from? The flask of alcohol.... thinned with methanol? Literal wood alcohol? People die in their own vomit all the time from that crap. Just food for thought.
Another thing.
Many seem to assume that Rustem, Igor, and Zina were headed BACK to the tent simply because what... Their heads were towards the tent when found? I call BS.
I've always wondered about which direction they were actually going also. If they were going back to the tent to get equipment to help all, somebody would of said, " here wear my shoes"
Rustems hat was just a little pulled back. If I were about to take my last breath and die of numbing hypothermia with my face buried in deep snow, the last thing I would be worried about is fixing my cover. He could have been squirming around face down or literally nose dived for all we know. To say his hat is somehow contradictory to a murder theory is absurd.
Many seem to assume that Rustem, Igor, and Zina were headed BACK to the tent simply because what... Their heads were towards the tent when found? I call BS.
If you are walking down a decent grade slope of a mountain and for one reason or another collapsed in pain, discomfort, exhaustion etc, you wouldn't sit or especially lay with your feet uphill. Its unnatural and uncomfortable to say the least. Its one of things you would naturally do without even thinking about it. You would go down on your butt, eventually lay back, and possibly roll over.
Point being.... NOBODY knows if they expired headed to, or away from the tent. Fact of the day.
Yeah, the cuts, tears, whatever in the tent, and how and when they happened leads to more questions than answers
I think your exactly right. When it comes right down to brass tacks, the BL theory doesn't hold any more water then any other theory. :/ Heck, the cuts in the tent (to me) look exactly like hatchet/axe cuts, and curved shovel cuts. Its really not hard to imagine a flap pealed back making the inside of the canvas now facing outward. You would have one heck of a challenge attempting to cut a semicircle in thick canvas yet alone do it several times unintentionally. :/
The official case files state a flap was pealed back on the windward side.... Thats it! The rest was done when Ivanov ordered them to dig it and its contents out with an axe and shovel, then drag the darn thing over rocks and ice to the helicopter pad. 8^o
@Lightning - hi.
as said i like - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_lightning#Microwave_cavity_hypothesis
hy·poth·e·sis
hi?paTH?s?s/Submit
noun
a supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation.
"professional astronomers attacked him for popularizing an unconfirmed hypothesis"
synonyms: theory, theorem, thesis, conjecture, supposition, postulation, postulate, proposition, premise, assumption; More
PHILOSOPHY
a proposition made as a basis for reasoning, without any assumption of its truth.
You quoted ONE of several theories as to what BL is. Where is the documentation of powerful microwaves of this nature recorded directly from a real/live BL? If there isn't any... Its only one guess out of many. This is in no way shape or form 'proof' of..... Anything. You also do not have any proof of any 'hot spot'. The 'report' of crunchy ice from a reporter looking for a story. Amazing evidence, or more fake news? You know the Russians are propaganda masters right? I mean... This wouldn't be the first time a 'journalist' embellished something or flat out made up a story. Thats what they do... Always looking for an elaborate story and its common for them to make crap up as they go along.
In reality, there are wonky reports of..... Yeti, UFOs etc. How is this any different?
Don't get me wrong... Its just a huge reach. Did BL do it? Perhaps, but theory is very weak and based on nearly nothing. But possible... Like several others.
Its a 50/50 whether or not they even slashed their way out of the tent in the first place. 'If' they did, BL could be one of several reasons as to why, but it does not explain the casual walking away from it. That's really about it other then some sightings proving BL exists.
(the strange thing is there is a circular hot spot near the tent, diameter about 4 m and it was noticed that snow down the slope was thinner (melted). So there was some sphere object that melted the snow locally and bigger microwave event that melted the snow on the slope)
Rotors of a helicopter style aircraft (circles), heat off the craft? (Melted snow?)
Err it wouldn't have been rushing anywhere on Feb 1st? Only later in May? Even if there was a trickle it would have almost certainly been under a layer of snow/ice. In the ravine the night cold would dominate any meagre day sun.
as said i like - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_lightning#Microwave_cavity_hypothesis
"that the energy source generating the ball lightning is a large (several cubic kilometers) atmospheric maser"
that gives you the general warming.
"ball lightning is a glow discharge driven by microwave radiation that is guided to the ball along lines of ionized air from lightning clouds where it is produced."
that gives you the hot spot.
Like this :-
http://www.viafanzine.jor.br/002imag/03_13/dyatlov4_objeto.jpg .
http://www.viafanzine.jor.br/002imag/03_13/dyatlov4_objeto2.jpg .
Or even non visible in infra red perhaps like this from the Chilean Navy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcNALjt6dBA . 3.00 thru to 5.43.
(So Semyon being a true professional is lying there knowing that it's not good for him so he tries to leave a record of what happened to complement his photographs. But he sadly for us doesn't. )
Where is this nursing station the remaining 3 erected? In the rushing water of the ravine?! What the...an SZ, after sustained bomb-blast injuries is making notes in the water to compliment his destroyed photos! That's dedication! This is turning into a Stephen King movie...wth!?
Ooh, the microwave thing.....remembered!
( The 2 yuris display this level of fb BUT NO ONE ELSE?)
"softened and whitened skin (maceration) of the fingers and feet, sign consisted with putrefaction in a wet environment"<==RAV4
Zina had frostbite, Rustem had skull fractures, Igor protected extremities better? Some dressed better than others...where you going with the frostbite thing, I forgot? Oof!
There was one more person present during the search, a journalist named Gennady Grygoryev. Thanks to him, we have more than the official and emotionless reports from the rescue team, and also some verbal inkling of the atmosphere: We came upon Mount 1079. The weather was calm, and the mountain was as if it was frozen in ice. The snow was compacted. There were ice-covered rock craters all around. The going was so slippery that, as I was carrying the camera and notebook, I almost broke my leg … The corpses were frozen and broken like glass.
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (p. 59). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
"What do they add to windshield washer fluid to keep it from freezing? "
Methanol doesn't explain the curious frostbite profile?
Glad you're onboard with drastically altered ice/snow patterns.
Its a wonder they were not found butt naked. Lol Too bad there isn't any anomalies recorded in the records as far as these drastically altered ice/snow patterns are concerned. :/
You know what else melts snow and ice? Quiz time.... What do they add to windshield washer fluid to keep it from freezing?
I'm going to help Nigel out here : it rhyme's with
smethanol :-l
You know what else melts snow and ice? Quiz time.... What do they add to windshield washer fluid to keep it from freezing?
@Lyndasez - yes maam.
@KMM - Admin is a very pleasant lady, have you clicked on the About tab?
Been there, Done that
While microwaves may not heat up the air... Everything else would be. Given the fact humans are mostly water, they would have been cooked like last nights leftovers. The autopsy reports mention nothing of the sort. You would think they woul know!
@KMM - Admin is a very pleasant lady, have you clicked on the About tab?
@KMM - talking to yourself now
Cant argue with you, I don't want the Admin jumping all over me ! :-)
(KMM - talking to yourself now )
Now, now, Nigel, I believe that was an extension of a conversation with me. He or she was excluding a theory, as you do with others...
(Look under theories tab on this site, the first theory explains better then I can.)
Thanks, will check that out.
@Nigel,
(Sounds like i'm ahead of you then... )
Oh lightyears ahead, ole buddy! I'm running against microwaves here! ;c)
Not really they'd been in the freezer until a short time before being found in the stream. They'd lost eyes and an tongue probably from predation but everything else including the internals was there to examine. Google images frostbite to see some graphic images, if they had any of that the autopsy would record it.
Now look at this chart - https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-XTozWAM3-Vw/UtBX1IWPVbI/AAAAAAAACi4/uraJWtO9rZs/s1600/Frostbite+Infographic.jpg .
Based on the above the people running around in their socks should have got fb in minutes, in an hour the tissue would be lost/blackened? The 2 yuris display this level of fb BUT NO ONE ELSE? As said it's really weird... Unless the condition of the snow indicating it has been raised in temp close to it's melt point (thaw/freeze) applied to that night? But then how do the 2yuris get it so bad? Enter the microwave warming theory, this warms the snow (water molecules) but not the air so the snow could be +1C but the air temp and associated wind chill could still be very extreme so if the 2yuris stay up in the cedar for any length of time they get bad fb but 4/5meters below them everyone is ok...
It certainly is NOT BL !
(I'm of the thinking that there was suppose to be a meeting between a kgb agent and western intelligence to transfer some radioactive clothing to the west.)
If I understand correctly, your belief is SZ? was a double-agent, his plan of exchange uncovered and Military elite activated, no survivors...and CIA or MI6 detained, or also destroyed? What was the importance of the clothes?
I'm thinking SZ was working for the kgb, maybe another also. I think Igor would of been made aware of this in order to change the route. Something went wrong and they were killed by the group they were to meet.
The radioactive clothing and what location (city) it came from would tell a lot about what activity was going on there.
Look under theories tab on this site, the first theory explains better then I can.
Oh, no, no, thanks! Was just trying to get a handle on the enormity of undertaking constructing a shelter under severe conditions. Dont think they would see a mansi shelter as the only one I could find looks like an igloo, doubt they'd invade..in pitch dark armed with matches and no lighter, jeez.
Sounds like i'm ahead of you then...
"Bu they weren't, no frostbite on the rav4. Only the 2yuris show extensive FB. Something happening there no one's thought of yet. The 2yuris are an anomaly compared to the others."
The RAV4 weren't preserved in snow like the others, they were severely decomposed, who could tell if they were frostbitten?
As to the Yuris, they all branched off and possibly given jobs, they were wood supply/fire keepers, (possibly where all the wood came from, for that fancy seat in the den?) one fell out of tree, knocked out the other...an off we go...
Lyndasez... I was referencing Lightning. I'm more then happy to help you out however. Iirc the depth was 5m. I can find it again if need be.
I said nothing about any band of killers, my theory is evolving by including or excluding this or that as more info comes in....I'm not married to one scenario as of yet.
But i will make two points to the rudest poster who uses the crudest language commonly with a lot of capitals :-
1. "MANNERS MAKETH MAN".
2. "LESS IS MORE" - https://moz.com/blog/art-of-concision .
You know who you are....
You've confused me then asking where's the roof? It's my assumption it was a snowcave?
"....and whilst we're on it, when accounting your theory, could you throw in a a name or 2, like Zina ...Igor, all these initials, gives me pause de-ciphering it all, thank you."
What about the Yuris? YuriD and YuriK...
"(SZ was found holding notebook and pencil but nothing written apparently, so i win)
How so, I said they had notebooks, you disputed? "
He hadn't written anything, my little joke (not my best perhaps).
"Additionally, now you have to explain speeding car crash injuries which left SZ still holding his, blank notepad!? "
Ah now this is one of the killer facts against the murder most foul theory. I would maintain that after the rav4 are injured the returning three setup a nursing station to try and make them comfortable including distributing clothing from the dead to the living. So Semyon being a true professional is lying there knowing that it's not good for him so he tries to leave a record of what happened to complement his photographs. But he sadly for us doesn't.
Now how do those facts fit with a band of killers running amok? "Don't kill me just yet because i want to leave a little note"?
Ditto Rustem, he his found practically face down in the snow but his little cap is curiously placed right on top of his head http://image.ibb.co/gM5Gz5/712202.jpg .
Was that a random accident or did Zina place it like that as she left him to try and get to the tent? Don't think the nasty killers would do it...
Don't know anything about Higgs boson collisions, my guess is that quantum physics isn't necessary for explaining BL, i think Kapitsa and the soliton theory (good name for a band) are on the right track.
Den could be a mansi hunter shelter.
( BTW... The depth in which the staged den floor was found IS IN THE CASE FILES. How about reading it.... No?)
Don't mean to be the annoying new kid in the class, but I don't see any harm helping each other...I'll get up to speed, meanwhile, any help or direction is appreciated.
I was referring to the width seeing its believed to have been dug sideways by the woodpeckers. Im guessing the search team are the only ones to have dug a shaft downward. You are correct... I do not believe the woodpeckers had the provisions of energy to dig a big cave in packed snow.
@Lightning
Yes yes... Lets ban those whomever you disagree with and/or if they counterpunch when insulted.. What is this.... Communist Russia??
Its not my fault? your BL theory was wide open to be shredded. Its baseless to begin with as I have clearly shown.
(I'm of the thinking that there was suppose to be a meeting between a kgb agent and western intelligence to transfer some radioactive clothing to the west.)
If I understand correctly, your belief is SZ? was a double-agent, his plan of exchange uncovered and Military elite activated, no survivors...and CIA or MI6 detained, or also destroyed? What was the importance of the clothes?
@LC,
Oh boy, let's say the dude in the pic is conservatively 5Ft, there is another 4ft of snow above his head, making the entire height 9ft! Which I dispute was dug by the RAV4...just clarifying.
(All gone quiet here, must be my BL theory stunning everyone into silence...?)
Haha, it sure would be stunning if you actually thought BL was Higgs boson! I'm no student of quantum physics, however, if 2 collided, results would be catastrophic, no?
(The investigation team dug that pit out with shovels!!!)
Oh for pity's sake, I'm disputing accounts the victims built it! Can we stay on the same page.
....and whilst we're on it, when accounting your theory, could you throw in a a name or 2, like Zina ...Igor, all these initials, gives me pause de-ciphering it all, thank you.
(SZ was found holding notebook and pencil but nothing written apparently, so i win)
How so, I said they had notebooks, you disputed? Additionally, now you have to explain speeding car crash injuries which left SZ still holding his, blank notepad!?
?
You do know that snow etc changes after WEEKS... right?
Yes i know it's sloppy police work but you've got to remember that all the morgue photos are from the groups own cameras! That's right they've got a possible murder hunt for five people with the cameras containing film of possibly huge importance and they just use up the remaining frames on taking morgue piccies. This was Russia in 1959.
Now who is telling lies, this is the proper story...
The condition of the snow is one of the curiosities of the DPI.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
The last photos show them digging the base for the tent out of normal snow having skied there.
What the rescuers found was quite different, most of the snow across the whole slope had become extremely icy including the snow on the tent which was so tough to chip through that they damaged the tent. Rescuers couldn't ski to the tent but had to leave their skis and walk carefully the ground was so icy.
This condition is consistent with thaw/refreeze as any skier knows however this is the north east face of a siberian mountain. Also there was a spot near the tent called the "hot spot" were the snow had suffciently melted that it had become corrugated in the high winds and refrozen as clear(ish) ice.
http://www.viafanzine.jor.br/002imag/03_13/dyatlov4_cedro.jpg .
http://www.viafanzine.jor.br/002imag/03_13/dyatlov4_nodoa.jpg .
So signs of things warming up sometime after they took those photos of setting up camp.
Also there is the frostbite or lack of it. Seven of these people were in their socks at best and yet only the 2yuris show serious frostbite. Five people in their socks and no gloves for say two hours in -20C with a high wind chill creating effective temps of say -60C (before they got to the forest at least) they should have been getting FB in minutes in those conditions and serious FB in an hour (it probably took 20min to reach the cedar). But very modest fb in some of them with others having none at all. Really really weird.
So there are signs that this entire area was warmer than normal that night.
This fits with the BL theory in that the whole area was in a cloud of naturally created microwaves which also produced the BL. If you think that's science fiction then checkout - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_lightning#Microwave_cavity_hypothesis . True it is still just a theory and in that sense fiction, but one posited by a very senior physicist and one i'm very interested in hence my interest in the DPI. I think the 2012 photos at the DP are of a glow discharge as the theory has it.
This theory also explains why the returning three all expire within 330m of each other trying to ascend the mountain, i.e. climb back into the microwave cloud. It also gives you suntans and skin damage. In fact the BL/microwave theory is the only one to explain all the facts and curiosities of the DPI. Nothing else comes half as close.
The investigation team dug that pit out with shovels!!! The ravine had been filled up with drift between the DPI and the den's discovery.
ID's entry was in the groups diary, a more formal record of the trip.
SZ was found holding notebook and pencil but nothing written apparently, so i win
I don't put as much into it as you may believe. I'm simply looking at all documented information available. From what I understand (maybe you know different) is that several substances naturally irradiate. Uranium is just what is used when producing plutonium. Either way said substances have to be enriched before reaching substantial levels. The specialist in the official case file didn't utter a single word about getting this naturally as if the run-off water deposited it, but yet quite the opposite. He went into detail regarding washing and how the levels would have been much higher beforehand.
Im more interested in the methanol idea at the moment... Historical context shows a great expansion of oil development at the time and the state had many 'bush drilling' outfits in the area. In the winter, they used enormous amounts of methanol to shove down a well hole to keep it from freezing. In fact, there is evidence showing those very helicopters that transported the bodies had normal operations in the area transporting large amounts of methanol. These model aircraft were literally designed for transporting heavy payloads. They were even instructed to drop their cargo in the outback country in the event of any type accident.... Engine failure, load securement etc...
Who is to say they didn't have a spill of methanol in the area that the woodpeckers waded through causing one or more people within the group to become sick? Through the skin, or through the lugs....either circumstance would have stopped the group in a rather precarious location under unfavorable conditions. Speaking of which, where are the rest of the group members when that photo of them digging in was taken? Where they off sight-seeing in whiteout conditions? Or were they off to the side being cared for? How do we 'know' all was well when the decision to dig in was made?
I can't help but remember being gassed in the Marines for the sole purpose of experiencing what its like to not have oxygen any more and how desperate you become to het away from it. God forbid you have methanol laced clothing fuming up a tent, or you start a fire only to find out it was a really bad idea once the fire ignites your socks etc just a bit too easily. I also can't help but wonder what happens to snow when covered in the substance....
Lots to thinks about...... No tunnel vision for me thanks.
Certainly doesn't look like something dug out from under meters of snow. Where is all the snow that would of been down in-between the branches? looks awful clean from being buried with snow
"They were fairly warm"
Perhaps.... Or, perhaps it was paradoxical undressing.
"Paradoxical undressing is a term for a phenomenon frequently seen in cases of lethal hypothermia. Shortly before death, the person will remove all their clothes, as if they were burning up, when in fact they are freezing."
Perhaps they just thought they were warm.... Eh Nigel? WE JUST DONT KNOW
Say it Nigel... Say after me...
MY THEORY ONLY WORKS IF THE GALAXY ALIGNS JUST RIGHT AND 300 UNKNOWNS ARE TWISTED INTO FACT. ALL FOR THE SAKE OF PRESERVING A NARRATIVE MY INTELLECTUALLY SUPERIOR ASS IS PUSHING.
Say it.... Show me that testicular fortitude.
Welp, to me it looks rather small.... Say 1.5m in British measurements. (Wink) . And the hole/shaft depicted in the photos was dug by the search team. They could have done as Nigel says and dug a cave type shelter from the side of an existing snow bank, but he gets all wonky wonky with the wild BL explosions that throws people meters through away but yet somehow leaves the den flooring of twigs and clothing fully in tact. I don't buy it...... I am very sceptical of the den to begin with..... If it was soo deeply buried, how did the search party know it was even there!?!? I don't buy the trail of clothing lead them to it.... It was buried... Under meters of snow. As in... They follow breadcrumbs that lead into a ravine and miraculously know the exact dead center place to dig? THATS AMAZING!!! I have read reports that the whole den thing was basically made up... Basically the searchers collected twigs the found chopped by the group, and their clothing, then dug a hole and said looky... this is what they must have done here!
The unfortunate fact is... You really cannot put too much into the den conundrum. Too many variables and not nearly enough information. Of course, that leaves an open door to conspiracy theorist that need to fill massive holes in their Swiss-cheese storyline of fictional fantasy.
I told you already... Its common knowledge these hikers were on the trip in the first place to earn another merit badge, and digging in under extreme conditions on the side of a mountain was not only bragging rights, but would render Igor the talk of the club (and possibly the ladies (Zina).
Besides... Its also well known he was running behind getting bogged down in the deep snow of the lowlands. One trek up the backside of that ridge and they were home free skiing around the parameter of the mountain slop. NOT bogged down in the forest they died in.
Most of this stuff is just a matter of common sense Nigel... No conspiracy to document the elusive god particle with futuristic cameras need apply.
For anyone not aware... Nigel found a web page article (BL god particle) where some asshat claims a reporter (city folk) came onto the ridge and noticed the snow was crusty on top (seen it a million times from the actions of the sun), so the author takes a well known picture from the tent location, circles an area in red, and claims it was a BL 'hot spot'!! Wow... Its like wow, but backwards!
Now every chance Nigel gets, he claims there was undoubtedly a 'hot spot' and speaks of it as if it were facts. What a freakin joke. Its the exact same thing with the bird story.... Rescue team caught their dinner turns into dead birds everywhere!! Same stupid article!!! Burnt tree tops and trunks..... Yup, same elaborate hoax stated somewhere obscure that Nigel preaches as fact only because he wants it so badly.
All rubbish, and he knows it.
"No notebooks of men were found by the rescue. There could be written some previous events or recording ongoing situation. These notebooks could have been destroyed immediately or removed.”
(I like to add that there is a certain proof that Sakharova is accurate in this assumption. If one reads Vladimir Aslinadaze’s testimony which can be found here it is pretty obvious that at least Zolotaryov’s notebook was found at the scene. Askinadzi was present there, he is the one who actually found the last 4 bodies. – S.O.)?"
They dug down an found this?! They dug with what, a knife?!
Men don't keep diaries? Who were you quoting from in a previous post about the weather?! Besides I made no mention of diaries, I said the men's notebooks, KGB agents don't take notes?!
@KMM, Thanks, thought I was getting nuts there...been at it all day..
Bu they weren't, no frostbite on the rav4. Only the 2yuris show extensive FB. Something happening there no one's thought of yet. The 2yuris are an anomaly compared to the others.
KMM, Some of your posts are very amusing...can't tell, are you having fun with my logic?
I'm of the thinking that there was suppose to be a meeting between a kgb agent and western intelligence to transfer some radioactive clothing to the west.
Maybe that was it's purpose, to be the beacon. I'm just giving a reason for it being on the outside of the tent. Don't forget there were 9 people inside that tent sleeping, if each one needs to find the flashlight in the middle of the night that's 9 times through the night. Better to leave it outside in a nominated place?
"Well if it's a cave, what happened to the roof, and why are the 9ft walls perfectly chiseled?"
Err they dug down a few meters to find the den? That's how they dug the walls?
"....and off the top of my head, Zinas pockets were turned out, seems to me someone was searching them...where are the men's notebooks? "
Men don't keep diaries, it's a girlie thing.
@KMM - knife/axe - a lot of the witness statements contradict each other, 50m or 500m etc etc.
The den floor looks well constructed for a temporary shelter.
Better constructed then a few people freezing to death (in the grip of hypothermia) could accomplish
The den floor looks well constructed for a temporary shelter.
"So why go up there? Why not head for the forest? "
Perhaps they got a gander at that backhoe style den and said...let's not camp on possibly secret or hostile turf!
http://gipotezi.ru/sekretnye-materialy/katastrofa-u-gory-holatchahl/6
A knife you say Nigel ?
"Got a feeling SZ wouldn't agree with you. Imo it has to be a snowcave not a more open structure, too cold and NTB's gloves were in his pocket and AK's jacket unzipped. They were fairly warm."
Well if it's a cave, what happened to the roof, and why are the 9ft walls perfectly chiseled?
....and off the top of my head, Zinas pockets were turned out, seems to me someone was searching them...where are the men's notebooks?
Added when Ivanov was in a hurry to close the case !
"the last photos show they were in storm, high winds, whiteout conditions.
So why go up there? Why not head for the forest? "
They weren't lost, ID recorded in the diary the previous night his doubts as to this plan - "It is hard to imagine such a comfort somewhere on the ridge, with a piercing wind, hundreds kilometers away from human settlements"
It's really wierd, their plan was to go up in that weather and camp just under the ridge, not knowing how long the bad weather would last...
When the snow began to fall off gradually and the scraps of clothes were revealed, the search engines once again surveyed the terrain 75 meters from Cedar - that ravine where the landslide had descended.
Down the creek, at a depth of more than 2.5 m, cut clothes were found lying on an ordinary heap of branches (possibly collected for a fire), which for some reason will be called "decking"
http://gipotezi.ru/sekretnye-materialy/katastrofa-u-gory-holatchahl/6
four seats is from the photograph of the den?
RS is my guess.
KEYWORD : IN MY OPINION ! more guessing by Nigel !
So why go up there? Why not head for the forest?
The official report says YK's knife was found nearby so they had a tool to cut the wood with which to dig into a snowbank.. The photo of the den suggests 4 seats and it maybe RS was there to. I'd say more like 7x7ft.
Where do you get this? from Ivanov's ramblings? About all reports I've read say all but the penknife was found in the tent.
Got a feeling SZ wouldn't agree with you. Imo it has to be a snowcave not a more open structure, too cold and NTB's gloves were in his pocket and AK's jacket unzipped. They were fairly warm.
" They didn't know how long the snowstorm would last, it could have been days... So this a key piece of the mystery imo."
That den was not dug by them...sorry, they may have fashioned a seat but that's all I'll give you..
N.B. "GLO" stands for "Globular Light-emitting Object", it's not immediately obvious and is a bit confusing.
@Lyndasez
"Den looks like the product of a backhoe"
some stout branches in that picture. Maybe WW2 vets know more about this than you or i.
they did this in a pitch dark storm!?
not if there was an object as bright as the full moon up on the hill or a missing torch or maybe from the fire.
If this BL is the sort that hovers in place awaiting prey..
BL isn't sentient?
This is madness!
Funnily enough the BL theory doesn't get everyone's vote....
Den looks like the product of a backhoe, they did this in a pitch dark storm!? You can't be serious! If this BL is the sort that hovers in place awaiting prey...why not dress accordingly an crawl commando style to safety?! This is madness!
"The key to all this is why'd they leave the tent orderly it seems without proper clothes...but have the presence of mind to leave a beacon back????? ", Ah that's the beauty of the BL theory. Fits all the facts here like a glove (almost).
They had to flee it hovering just outside at the hotspot.
But once a little way away they could relax and walk for the forest to beat the windchill.
Whilst the BL hovered at the tent they couldn't return.
When it left they'd need a beacon to assist returning.
When they got to the cedar it was still back there so they made a fire.
Probably SZ disagreed with the fire and recommended a den as his WW2 experience.
The BL moved down the hill and exploded in the ravine with enough force to throw the rav4 several meters and kill birds, maybe leaving RS injured. AK's autopsy is cause for concern here. The deformed neck (snapped) would fit the above but the pathologist never investigated it?
ID, ZK and RS are only survivors, they tend to the injured stripping 2yuris and moving clothing from LD to SZ.
BL now gone so ZK and RS try and return to tent for supplies but they're climbing into the microwaves and find it debilitating, RS collapses first, ZK puts his cap on the back of his head and continues but also expires.
Later ID realises that they're not returning and tries to return but expires. N.B. RS and ID are not found in the classic foetal position of dying from cold.
The only bit that doesn't fit perfectly is what happened to the 2yuris, they have to die and be turned (stripped) sometme later after the lividity has frozen in. It would be nice to say the explosion threw them out of the tree onto the fire but the it doesn't suit the timeline, has to be something else earlier.
But Svetlana, who worked with Ivanov, I believe, said, his first instinct was murder till he saw the RAV4...whatever that means...
Why not just keep quiet about it?
All fair points but there are the facts, SZ attached to the group even he had nothing to do with the university, they went up to the ridge in a snowstorm even though ID records in the diary the previous night he has concerns. So what was going on? Why on earth would any group of experienced skiers elect to spend the night above the treeline is those conditions instead of staying with the planned route? They didn't know how long the snowstorm would last, it could have been days... So this a key piece of the mystery imo.
Who it to say those lights weren't secret military aircraft, missiles, comets..?? Are they harnessing BL now for some scientific reason? The KBG would've sent out experts to investigate...with REAL EQUIPMENT ...not just dinky cameras, come on..
"On February 1, a snowstorm moved in, and the group lost their way -- instead of maintaining their heading toward Dyatlov Pass, they veered west, toward the peak of Kholat Syakhi. At some point they realized their mistake, but instead of retracing their path, they chose to camp on the mountainside and wait out the storm."
@Lyndasez - err, yes but the authorities knew where it was? Who says they veered off course?
You guys keep dissing the BL theory but all i hear from you is nonsense about thyroids and hangars that almost certainly weren't built in 1959....
@Nigel, This place didn't appear on maps, plus they veered off approved course...
Probably thrown on it by an explosion....
Err uranium comes from natural sources?
Lemme guess... To you, 'throw' is 100% fact she was blown up by a fireball. Am I right!?!
500euros say I can toss your butt into that ditch and onto the boulders at the bottom..... Lets do this...
Whatever you do... Ignore the part about impact force... Fall.... HELLO MCFLY! HELLO..... Have you seen the boulder she was straggling?
But my main point is.... You said I was wrong, when in fact.... YOUR stupid book was wrong, and you along with it. You need to burn that blasted thing!!!
'MANY TIMES HIGHER PRIOR TO BEING WASHED'.... The clothing was not just radiated from natural sources.
The position of the internal organs is regular, the pleural cavities contain up to one and a half litres of liquid dark blood.
and
Based on the forensic examination of the corpse of Ms. L.A. Dubinina I think that the death of Ms. Dubinina was caused by massive haemorrhage into the right ventricle, multiple bilateral rib fractures, and internal bleeding into the thoracic cavity. The said damage was probably caused by an impact of great force causing severe closed lethal trauma to the chest of Ms. Dubinina. The trauma was caused during life and is the result of high force impact with subsequent fall, throw or bruise to the chest of Ms. Dubinina.
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (p. 215). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
The pleural cavities contained up to one litre of liquid dark blood.
and
Based on the examination of the corpse of Mr. Zolotaryov, 37 years old, I think that he died due to multiple fractures of the right ribs with internal haemorrhaging to the pleural cavity while at a low temperature. The above-mentioned multiple fractures of Zolotariev’s ribs with haemorrhaging into the pleural cavity were caused in vivo as an effect of a high-power impact to the chest of Zolotariev at the moment of his fall, squeezing or throwing.
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (p. 215). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
in vivo means whilst alive. He died from internal bleeding together with the cold
No, he doesn't. I've read a lot about Charlie over the years & this laughing innocent boy, esp. with the snow on his face, looks nothing like Manson. Not sure how you came up with that one but rest assured.......no one has eyes like Charlie but Charlie. There is nothing evil looking about Igor. Just more of your b.s.......
He died from the crushed chest. The last 4 died from their massive injuries caused by homicide.
@L.C. I find this offensive as there is nothing written about her being a tease. Yuri was NOT her "ex lover". Zina was still a virgin as well as Luda. Zina wrote in her diary that Yuri had been "holding hands with a girl from the other group" & how she felt jealous. Zina had nothing to do with Yuri wanting to come along. She wrote in her diary she wasn't sure how she'd feel. Zina still had feelings for Yuri. So she wasn't "stringing him along at all".
She like the attention of boys.... if ya know what Im sayin. No, LC, I don't know wtf you're trying to say.
I disagree with this & find it offensive to Zina as well. There is no truth in this. Her & Yuri went out a few times & he quit seeing her. She was a virgin as I stated b/4. She was irritated with Igor because he made her sleep next to the stove the nite b/4. Perhaps it was her turn.
Anna, this is certainly littered with possibilities. Given that the Kyshtym Accident, a nuclear incident happened in Sept '57 in southern Urals an no one knew it till the '80s.
I've read the notebooks for the men are missing, or sewn up in a Top Secret file, so I think they are hiding many things.
You assume reports of lights are ball-lightning how is what I do different?
I think not, it can be seen from satellite, would've been huge to the hikers. We're they supposed to go off course? I'm sure they gave a map of their expedition for approval. Everything is up for supposition in this saga. You think they're gonna register schematics of this bunker?!
I posted this a couple of days ago. You blew it off as being previously covered......
A mysterious object was discovered near the site, where hikers died when trying to cross the Dyatlov Pass. Amateur radio engineer and researcher of paranormal phenomena Valentin Degtyarev believes that the structure that was found on the site may have a connection with the tragedy that took place there in the winter of 1959.
It goes about a construction 25-30 meters long and 10-15 meters wide. The construction was found at a distance of ten kilometers from the site, when a group of hikers died in 1959. The construction, Degtyarev believes, could be a part of a bunker that had been built in the Ural mountains during the times of the Cold War.
The researcher assumes that the group of hikers could find themselves on the pass the day when neutron weapons were tested. This may explain the presence of radioactive substances on the clothes of one of the victims. The death of the hikers could be a reason, for which the tests were wrapped up. The underground building was blown up and mothballed. The upper part of the bunker is still visible on satellite images.
The Dyatlov Pass is considered to be one of the most mysterious areas of hiker routes in the Urals. In February 1959, nine skiers of a hiker club were killed near Mount Otorten under unclear circumstances. Igor Dyatlov was the leader of the group. The bodies that were subsequently found on the site shocked forensic experts: most of the people froze to death, whereas traces on the bodies of other victims indicated that they had died violent deaths.
The pass was named in memory of the hiker group led by Igor Dyatlov. Some researchers believe that the hikers died as a result of an explosion of a ballistic missile.
According to ex-governor of the Sverdlovsk region, Senator Eduard Rossel, the tragedy on the Dyatlov Pass still remains strictly classified information.
Pravda.Ru 08.14.2017
This is interesting given your Phd in physics or was that the Wolfeman?!
@Nigel, quite possibly from the underground bunker (neutron bomb testing) they recently found, mothballed, but was active in the 50s. It was 6 miles from their campsite or..YK brought some of his work home with him..on clothes...working with plutonium.
@Nigel, I 'think,' LCs complaint is, they didn't test the thyroid gland, and come on, that contamination on the clothes is whoa high after washing!
On February 17, I and Vladimir Shevkunov got up at 6.00 in the morning to prepare breakfast for the group. After splitting the fire and making everything necessary, they waited for the food to be ready. The sky was cloudy, there were no clouds and no clouds, but there was a slight haze, which usually dissipates with the rising of the sun. Sitting face to the north and accidentally turning his head to the east, he saw that a milky white blur about 5-6 lunar in diameter and a series of concentric circles consisting of a row of them had spread in the sky at a height (...?). It resembled a halo around the moon in a clear frosty weather. I made a comment to my partner, that's how they painted the moon. He thought and said that in the first moon there is no, and besides, it should be on the other side. From the moment we noticed this phenomenon took 1-2 minutes, how long it lasted before
Sheet 212
and how did I initially do not know. At this moment, at the very center of this spot, an asterisk flared up, which for a few seconds remained the same size, and then began to increase sharply in size and rapidly move in a western direction. Within a few seconds, she grew to the size of the moon, and then tearing off the smoke screen or clouds appeared a huge milk disc of milky color, 2-2.5 lunar in diameter, surrounded by the same rings of pale color. Then, remaining the same size, the ball began to fade until it merged with the surrounding halo, which in turn spread out across the sky and went out. It was dawn. The clock was 6.57, the phenomenon lasted no more than a half minutes and produced a very uneasy impression. Initially, we did not pay attention to it, but then, when the glowing disk itself appeared, they were amazed. Personally, I had the impression that some heavenly body was falling in our direction, then, when it had grown to such enormous dimensions, a thought flashed through, another planet came into contact with the earth, that now a collision would follow and nothing would remain of all earthly things. We were already awake for more than an hour, so we could retire after sleeping and not believe in hallucinations, but in the end everything was as hypnotized and only when
(illegible)
"THIS PARAGRAPH IS THE SUMMARY OF THE FINDINGS ON THE CLOTHING ONLY!!!!
THE SUMMARY OF THE TISSUE SAMPLES ARE AFTER THE READINGS ON THEM, AND IT STATES NO SUCH NONSENSE!"
1) The solid biosubstrates studied contain radioactive substances within the natural content determined by Kali-40. 2) The individual samples of clothing examined contain several inflated quantities of radioactive substances or radioactive material, which is a beta emitter. 3) Detected radioactive substances or radioactive substances when washing clothing samples tend to flush, i.e. are caused not by a neutron flux and induced radioactivity, but by radioactive contamination with beta particles. Chief radiologist of the city of Levashov 27.05.1959 (Signed)" "
Err what's your point here, the findings are that the tiisue samples are normal? Clothing is inflated.
http://image.ibb.co/cD65g5/0_985f3_d09d8b6e_XL.jpg .
But what about these two? .
http://image.ibb.co/hH2BM5/0_985f5_c4906940_XL.jpg .
http://image.ibb.co/hdg5g5/0_985f4_259eeac9_XL.jpg
http://image.ibb.co/jVx315/0_98569_91789bbc_XL.jpg .
Awe...... so CUTE! lol .
http://image.ibb.co/c5VO15/0_98568_2b98da0f_XL.jpg
http://image.ibb.co/fcBo15/dgfrjs.jpg .
But what about this one? Taken at the same time.
http://image.ibb.co/ftO1M5/0_b2144_70347d91_XL.jpg
Nothing fell through the cracks unless Ivanov wanted it to #1. #2, Burn marks on live wood trunks would be visible for a very long time. Your excuse is ridiculous at best. Black/white photography wont work....... gimme a freakin break, WEAK! "
@Loose Cannon, I agree, the naivety Nigel labors under is puzzling to say the least. Black n white photos are of no use, neither are rulers, how bout a pic of the burn with a ruler beside it?! Measurements, photos, any visual that can aid in proving a theory is critical!
The statement regarding.....
"The absence of appropriate instruments and conditions in the laboratory made it impossible to perform radiochemical and spectrometric analysis to determine the chemical structure of the emitter and its radiation energy."
Is taken from this paragraph in its entirety...
"Experimental washing of clothes showed that the contamination
is removed, the percentage of washing varies from 30% to 60% (washing clothes was done in running cold water for 3 hours). When determining the type of radiation, it is established that the activity takes place due to beta particles. Alpha particles and gamma quanta were not detected. The absence of appropriate instruments and conditions in the laboratory made it impossible to perform radiochemical and spectrometric analysis to determine the chemical structure of the emitter and its radiation energy. Radiometric measurements of solid biosubstrates were carried out on a B-2 installation (No. 2554) in a lead house with a BFA-25 meter. The unit was measured using a strontium preparation with an activity of 1) 7000 rpm, 2) 2000 rpm. The results of measurements of samples from No. 1,2,3,4 are summarized in Table No. 1 (see on the back)"
THIS PARAGRAPH IS THE SUMMARY OF THE FINDINGS ON THE CLOTHING ONLY!!!!
THE SUMMARY OF THE TISSUE SAMPLES ARE AFTER THE READINGS ON THEM, AND IT STATES NO SUCH NONSENSE!
" Control samples were obtained from the forensic medical expert of Dr. Renaissance. The samples of the tissues of a person who died in the accident of a
motor vehicle in the city of Sverdlovsk, also showed the presence of a natural radiological element of potassium-40 in approximately the same
amounts as in Table 1.
Thus, the results of the studies in Tables 1 and 3 do not exceed the averaged data on the content of radioactive substances in human organs and may be due to
natural radioactive Potassium-40. Radiation by type refers to the Beta-
particles. Alpha particles and gamma quanta were not detected.
CONCLUSIONS:
1) The solid biosubstrates studied contain radioactive substances within the natural content determined by Kali-40. 2) The individual samples of clothing examined contain several inflated quantities of radioactive substances or radioactive material, which is a beta emitter. 3) Detected radioactive substances or radioactive substances when washing clothing samples tend to flush, i.e. are caused not by a neutron flux and induced radioactivity, but by radioactive contamination with beta particles. Chief radiologist of the city of Levashov 27.05.1959 (Signed)"
Here is THE ACTUAL CASE FILE!!!! and I dont give a rats ass who ordered it. As you can see... your book grossly reworded it! .
https://sites.google.com/site/hibinaud/home/zaklucenie-eksperta .
So they didnt do a radio'chemical' test to determine the chemical structure of the emitter.... so what! It was beta and measured.
Under the orders of Investigator Ivanov, an examination was made of the clothes of some expedition members, in order to determine if there was any radioactive contamination on the clothes or the dead bodies. To order a radiological examination was by no means a regular part of the investigative process. The examination was conducted on May 18, in a poorly equipped city laboratory, almost ten days after the last funeral. Vladimir Levashov, the main radiologist of Yekaterinburg, conducted the examination. Levashov’s report reads: ‘The absence of adequate equipment and the conditions in our laboratory did not allow us to conduct radiochemical and spectrometric analysis for defining the chemical structure of the emitter and measuring the energy of its emission.’ It’s possible that in May, Ivanov received some information or an order to conduct this examination. It’s also possible this was done on his own initiative. If it had been ordered from above, the examination would have taken place in the best possible laboratory, which, at that time in the USSR, would have been in a military institution. As it was, Ivanov contacted the rescue party member Albert Kikoin whose brother, Isaak Kikoin, was in charge of a national laboratory for studying radiation. Levashov was warned that this investigation was to be a matter of secrecy and he signed a document to confirm he wouldn’t release the information to anyone but the investigator. He was provided with all the clothes of Zolotaryov, Dubinina, Kolevatov, and Tibeaux, as well as bio-culture samples of their bodies.
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (p. 103). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
"As I understood it there was no bruising (bleeding) caused by the horrific crushed chest, otherwise he died from it, which is it, since there's ...ahem, no coverup, he died from freezing or crushed chest?"
Yes there wasn't any bruising but there was internal bleeding. When you go to a restaurant and order ribs, you're getting the tissue surrounding the actual bone to eat. When the rib cage suffers a massive fracture as in these injuries then that tissue is ripped and bleeds whilst the heart continues to beat. So a pathologist is trained to look at how extensive the trauma is and collect the volume of blood and estimate the how long the bleeding was before the person died and it stopped. From memory one of them had a litre of bleeding which takes a while.
"They didn't wait because parents and other students and interested parties were gonna conduct their own search! Too bad they didn't!"
Well first they wouldn't be going anywhere without state permission and even if they did get it (which they wouldn't because the state had concerns about defection), for a prolonged investigation they would need a supply chain. Pretty expensive business definately best left to the resources of the state.
"But if they wanted to hide the cause of death, why not wait until the summer? They'd come back to find just skeletons spread all over the mountain by predators.
What are they going to measure that isn't known?"
They didn't wait because parents and other students and interested parties were gonna conduct their own search! Too bad they didn't!
How bout depth of snow, tent, distances, evidence found near bodies, cuts on ski poles, cuts on tent before they added to them...let's not get into lack of photos...forget it, the Donner party was better documented!
Im sure it must be some sort of university hiking badge. He she is again....
http://image.ibb.co/h1KFW5/0_f323c_e3e13956_XL.jpg
These clothing articles were glow-in-the-dark radiated prior to being washed in the creek. Makes you wonder why the first 5 were not tested. Or were they and the results were hidden..... Its also interesting to note the helicopter crew refused to fly out the bodies of the rav4 until proper radiation protective body bags were obtained. The rav4 bodies were not tested as of yet, so how on earth would they have reason to suspect radiation???
This one is interesting, if someone know what those white badges on each means? http://image.ibb.co/hvgYYk/0_8d29e_3656f85b_XL.jpg
Oh to be sure there was fighting goin on, both ladies make mention of it in diaries. That “unknown compelling force," was themselves...something worked them pretty good.
Question #4. What do you think, what could be the degree of contamination of individual objects, if you take into account that prior to research they had been in the running water for about 15 days.
Answer: It can be assumed that the contamination of individual garments was many times greater, but here one must take into account that clothes could be washed unevenly, that is, with varying degrees of intensity."
THEY WERE IN THE STREAM A LOT LONGER THEN 15 DAYS..... You do the math.
"Because the pathologist would have spotted the lack of internal bleeding with the two chest fractures (unless he's lying as per coverup)."
As I understood it there was no bruising (bleeding) caused by the horrific crushed chest, otherwise he died from it, which is it, since there's ...ahem, no coverup, he died from freezing or crushed chest?
I am not surprised you are not paying attention....
"I'm not aware of this, they had a vat of alcohol for the staff to wash with."
Someone refuses to read the autopsy reports and the sworn testimonies.
"Probably assumed freezing."
Show me another case or study stating THREE TIMES THE SIZE is normal.
"The radiation testing was done privately by a friend on his own initiative EVEN though he had been ordered to wrap up the case.... Afaik it was only on the clothing. The pathologist took tissue samples for further analysis but i don't know of any radiation testing."
There is a lot you are not aware of.... to busy with head up ones own ass i would presume.
https://sites.google.com/site/hibinaud/home/zaklucenie-eksperta
"Nothing wrong in "Missing presumed dead", interesting that she wouldn't sign("
Unless of course your the head of an investigation regarding 4 missing people. How does he know they are dead? Alot of presuming if you ask me. FYI, there were TWO other signatures required on that document other then Ivanovs..... Neither would sign off on it!
"Not sure black and white photography would have been much use. Could have been a practical issue, bad weather, then fell through the cracks"
Nothing fell through the cracks unless Ivanov wanted it to #1. #2, Burn marks on live wood trunks would be visible for a very long time. Your excuse is ridiculous at best. Black/white photography wont work....... gimme a freakin break, WEAK!
"My guess is that they did take them and they've been lost."
Yeah yeah.... lost... thats it. Ivanov must have lost them! Add that to the list then...... I call BS
"Once they had the bodies it was wrapped up as it was costing a fortune."
I guess thats why it was closed to the public for 3 years.... right nigel... Tell me, today in London if they were to find 4 mutilated bodies.... would the case be closed the same day? Unbelievable
"Not an easy one to solve"
Not for anyone that came afterwards.... you know why?... IVANOV .
Nigel, you displayed a rather weak and pathetic set of excuses, and you know what they say about excuses. Its somewhat concerning watching you twist truths and invent others.
Maybe he had drunk a bit too much vodka.
#2 Lack of investigation photos etc
Probably the fault of the other guy.
#3 He arrived at the tent AFTER it had beed fubared by in-computation college kids, made an on-the-record report of its state with spicifics, then says that another investigator was there before him so go ask him, the other guys account is very different.
You would have to produce facts for this claim.
#4 He spent all but 5min at each site.
Apparently he didn't visit the site when the rav4 were found which i've remarked upon. But this could have been a hiearchy thing, he had a team of men there full time so they would do the footwork. Don't forget that Ivanov was ordered to Moscow during this investigation and came back "a changed man" there was good reason for him to be fearful for his future if it was a state coverup. I'm not saying it was of course but he would be watching his back pretty hard.
#5 The rav4 bodies were thoroughly washed with chemicals to hide something
I'm not aware of this, they had a vat of alcohol for the staff to wash with.
#6 The Aortas were measured, but he never investigated as to why 3 times larger then normal
Probably assumed freezing.
#7 Nearly every organ of the Rav4 were tested for radiation levels except THE ONE ORGAN that hold the highest concentration.... the thyroid. 200% higher concentration and this isnt 'new' information. He either covered up the results OR he purposely excluded them from the official order. They tested what he asked them to test.... nothing more.
The radiation testing was done privately by a friend on his own initiative EVEN though he had been ordered to wrap up the case.... Afaik it was only on the clothing. The pathologist took tissue samples for further analysis but i don't know of any radiation testing.
#8 He has been all over the map as to who, what, and why..... wonky at best.
Rolls eyes.
#9 The forensic expert and criminalist expert Churkina refused to sign off on the official autopsy, but Ivanov signed..... AS OF TODAY THE AUTOPSY REPORTS ON RAV4 ARE INVALID!. ALL THREE WERE SUPPOSED TO SIGN!! IVANOV WAS NOT INTERESTED IN THE EXPERTS OPINION AND THE TWO EXPERTS REFUSED TO PUT THEIR NAME ON A BOTCHED REPORT! https://image.ibb.co/dFTBya/sme.jpg #10 Ivanov made an official report that all 9 hikers had died..... BEFORE THE RAV4 were found!!!!
Nothing wrong in "Missing presumed dead", interesting that she wouldn't sign, S Oss states that she thought the head pathologist was "afraid".
#11 In 1990 he wrote an article stating that trees had burn marks.... yet THERE HAS NEVER AND WILL NEVER BE ANYTHING ABOUT THAT DOCUMENTED IN THE OFFICIAL REPORTS AND NOTHING OF THE SORT WAS EVER DOCUMENTED>>>>>> GE EITHER BOTCHED THE INVESTIGATION IN 1959, OR HE IS A FREAKING LIAR.... TAKE YOUR PICK.
Not sure black and white photography would have been much use. Could have been a practical issue, bad weather, then fell through the cracks.
#12 HE ORDERED A TEAM TO DIG OUT THE TENT AND ITS CONTENTS WITH AN AXE AND SHOVELS AND THEN DRAG THE TENT OVER ROCKS AND ICE TO THE HELICOPTER.... WITHOUT A SINGLE PHOTO BEING TAKEN OF ITS CONTENTS OR THE LAYOUT AND CONDITION PRIOR TO REMOVAL....... ID LIKE TO POP THIS IDIOT IN THE DING-DONG!
There is one photograph of the tent prior to removal which begs the question why not more? My guess is that they did take them and they've been lost.
#13 He closed the case PREMATURELY!
Once they had the bodies it was wrapped up as it was costing a fortune.
#14 He didnt solve the case.
Not an easy one to solve...
I do believe there was plenty among the group to squabble over. From the numerous diary entries I post a while back to the indications I see Zina being a big tease and likely leading Igor on..... to top it all off she brought here 'ex lover' Yuri along for the trip. I think she was still fairly close to Yuri and getting the same string-along as Igor. There are loads of prior DPI photos of Zina and Yuri on previous hikes etc. From what I understand, Yuri was the only boy she ever brought home to meet her parents.
To this house as a matter of fact....
http://image.ibb.co/hurdzQ/0_8d294_685ffdb3_XL.jpg .
Some shots with Zina and Yuri..
http://image.ibb.co/mWr0Dk/0_8d2a1_3e13d855_XL.jpg .
http://image.ibb.co/jVn7tk/0_f325a_a42ccb17_XL.png .
http://image.ibb.co/hvgYYk/0_8d29e_3656f85b_XL.jpg .
She like the attention of boys.... if ya know what Im sayin.
http://image.ibb.co/bZUbm5/0_f3241_ace5f508_X5_L.png .
http://image.ibb.co/hx0Stk/0_f3233_413ede19_XL.jpg .
I would also expect in the 1950s for this skimpy dipping in front of the boys to be pretty damn risque. An event like this likely got around among the boys.... Pretty sure thats not a 1950s bikini.
http://image.ibb.co/fBmxR5/0_8d2b1_5263cc95_XL.jpg
http://image.ibb.co/iJ0M3k/footprints1.png
Nigel... here are the conditions the morning of on the backside of the ridge. Weather must have changed on them pretty rapidly!!.
http://image.ibb.co/b8ioG5/les.jpg .
http://image.ibb.co/c0MfUQ/cats2_600x266.jpg .
From the act of examination of corpses. Cadaveric spots.
Doroshenko Yuri - purple-purple disposed on the rear surface of torso and neck limbs .
Kolevatov Alexander - crimson-purple richly arranged on the rear right side of the trunk and the extremities .
Krivonischenko Georgiy - purple-lilac color, located on the back of the neck of the body and of course first.
Dyatlov Igor - bluish-red colors are located on the rear surface of the body of the neck and limbs .
Slobodin Rustem - bluish-red color abundantly located on the back of the neck and the torso and limbs .
Dubinin Ludmila - bluish-gray c / pveta disposed abundantly on the rear and side surfaces of the neck, trunk and extremities .
Kolmogorov Zynaida - bluish-purple disposed on the rear surface of the trunk .
Zolotarev Semen - purplish-gray color, abundantly located on the back of the neck, trunk and extremities .
Tibo Nikolay - purple-green color located on the rear-side surfaces of the thorax, neck and limbs.
What does it mean? Why Vozrozhdenniy in all acts of the MEA wrote the same location of the spots on the cadaver of dead bodies, regardless of the positions, in which they were found?
Perhaps, on the bodies it was not simple cadaveric spots, but is written in the JMO could not. The reason for the lack of cadaveric spots on the bodies of the dead might be bleeding of internal organs or blood clotting due to strong radiation.
All these facts are contrary to the media the conclusion that the death of the children was caused by hypothermia and point to signs of poisoning or strong exposure."
I want to draw your attention to another important fact - the description of the media acts very important body, which from the effects of radioactive iodine (131J) suffers in the first place - the thyroid gland .
In the first group of hikers, whose bodies were discovered in the early days of search operations:
Dyatlov Igor - "... The horns of the hyoid bone intact. The thyroid gland is at the cut fleshy red ...
Kolmogorova Zinaida - "... The hyoid bone is intact. The thyroid gland in the section bluish-red color ... "
Slobodin Rustem - "... The horns of the hyoid bone intact. The thyroid gland is the cut of red ... "
Doroshenko Yury - "... The horns of the hyoid bone intact. The thyroid gland in the fleshy section, reddish ... "
Krivonischenko Georgiy - "... The thyroid gland in the fleshy section, dark-red color. The horns of the hyoid bone intact ... "
The second group of hikers, whose bodies were found in a ravine in the creek, under a 3-meter layer of snow ex.
Kolevatov Alexander - a description of the thyroid gland in the media there is no "... The neck is long, thin, deformed in the area of the thyroid cartilage ...."
Dubinina Lyudmila - description of the thyroid gland in the media there is no "... The neck is long, thin. Soft neck tissue flabby to the touch. When the feeling is determined by the neck unusual mobility of the horns of the hyoid bone and thyroid cartilage . ... "
Zolotarev Semen - a description of the thyroid gland in the media there is no "... The hyoid bone is intact. ... "
Tibo Nikolay - a description of the thyroid gland in the media there is no "... The hyoid bone is intact. ... "
Iodine-like substance, extremely selectively deposited in the thyroid. After hitting 131J in the human body, the radioactivity of thyroid radioactivity may exceed all other tissues of more than 200 times!"
#2 Lack of investigation photos etc
#3 He arrived at the tent AFTER it had beed fubared by in-computation college kids, made an on-the-record report of its state with spicifics, then says that another investigator was there before him so go ask him, the other guys account is very different.
#4 He spent all but 5min at each site.
#5 The rav4 bodies were thoroughly washed with chemicals to hide something
#6 The Aortas were measured, but he never investigated as to why 3 times larger then normal
#7 Nearly every organ of the Rav4 were tested for radiation levels except THE ONE ORGAN that hold the highest concentration.... the thyroid. 200% higher concentration and this isnt 'new' information. He either covered up the results OR he purposely excluded them from the official order. They tested what he asked them to test.... nothing more.
#8 He has been all over the map as to who, what, and why..... wonky at best.
#9 The forensic expert and criminalist expert Churkina refused to sign off on the official autopsy, but Ivanov signed..... AS OF TODAY THE AUTOPSY REPORTS ON RAV4 ARE INVALID!. ALL THREE WERE SUPPOSED TO SIGN!! IVANOV WAS NOT INTERESTED IN THE EXPERTS OPINION AND THE TWO EXPERTS REFUSED TO PUT THEIR NAME ON A BOTCHED REPORT! https://image.ibb.co/dFTBya/sme.jpg
#10 Ivanov made an official report that all 9 hikers had died..... BEFORE THE RAV4 were found!!!!
#11 In 1990 he wrote an article stating that trees had burn marks.... yet THERE HAS NEVER AND WILL NEVER BE ANYTHING ABOUT THAT DOCUMENTED IN THE OFFICIAL REPORTS AND NOTHING OF THE SORT WAS EVER DOCUMENTED>>>>>> GE EITHER BOTCHED THE INVESTIGATION IN 1959, OR HE IS A FREAKING LIAR.... TAKE YOUR PICK.
#12 HE ORDERED A TEAM TO DIG OUT THE TENT AND ITS CONTENTS WITH AN AXE AND SHOVELS AND THEN DRAG THE TENT OVER ROCKS AND ICE TO THE HELICOPTER.... WITHOUT A SINGLE PHOTO BEING TAKEN OF ITS CONTENTS OR THE LAYOUT AND CONDITION PRIOR TO REMOVAL....... ID LIKE TO POP THIS IDIOT IN THE DING-DONG!
#13 He closed the case PREMATURELY!
#14 He didnt solve the case.
Thats off the top of my head and I am SURE there are other!......... Your daddy was a full blown IDIOT or, he intentionally botched, covered, mislead, and otherwise created wild goose chases.
The entire body holds alot of water, but yet the autopsies said nothing about being cooked from the inside out, so you can reasonably rule out microwaves.
1. fact 1
2. fact 2
and so on.
The bodies were frozen solid for many weeks, the expansion of the brain is known to crack skulls. The aorta contains a lot of water (blood) so it will expand a lot. As said before microwaves can heat liquids and make them expand...
AND NOT A SINGLE SHRED OF INTEREST AS TO WHY THEIR AORTAS WERE THREE TIMES THE SIZE THEY SHOULD BE!
Earlier, I noted that the actions of student search engines who parried the tent and injured her, no one controlled, so for the investigation it was incorrect to investigate the state of the tent in the Lenin room.
Thus, during the study of the tent, as prosecutor Ivdel Tempalov VI claimed, there were no incisions in the tent.
However, it is worth noting that on the windy side, ie. from the side of the spur, the tent was torn in the middle part, and, as Tempalov noted, it was brought at first glance by dense snow. This is the only place where Tempalov discovered damages in the tent, which means there were no cuts from which the hikers were escaping from the tent, there was no tent!
Sections and huge holes in the tent on the other side of the spur appeared after Tempalov VI. He examined the tent and instructed the students to collect it and all the things and load it into the helicopter. The tent was frozen to dense snow, so the students cut out and pulled it out of the frozen snow and ice.
Then, according to the testimonies of the search engines, the tent dragged to the helicopter to deliver it to Ivdel for research.
Those who saw the tent after the search engine students "worked" with it attributed the cuts made by the search engines to Igor Dyatlov's group. Then, based on this false "fact", a legend was invented that Igor Dyatlov's group cut the tent during its departure.
In fact, the tent was intact and the group left it in an organized manner. Things were all brought into the tent, and the entrance to the tent was closed.
The tent itself was not torn by the wind, and only from one side, from the side of the spur, it was pressed down by dense snow, resulting in a large rupture, the reason for the appearance of which just needed to be thoroughly explored ..."
Would ya imagine that!!..... dense snow build on one side pressing down causing a rupture, along comes the students ripping, tearing, shovels and axe!
I said it once, Ill say it again. For all we know they never 'fled in panic' to begin with and its HIGHLY unlikely they were 'observing' anything outside the tent in whiteout conditions.... remember this?? http://image.ibb.co/fsd69F/dtyjdty.jpg
We disassembled a ten-man tent covered with a hard snow with shovels!
According to the former judge of Ivdel in 1959 Novokreschenova GV. Korotaev V.I. said that ... "the tent was covered with snow, and the snow was very hard. I had to use an ax, cut it with an ax and, of course, crippled it."
At the same time, there was no system to free the tent from snow. First they took out a few stale blankets, then buckets, a stove, two or three sacks of biscuits, shoes and other things. Things were stacked in backpacks, and dragged the tent to the search engine camp.
Naturally, after such manipulations on the tent, sections and torn pieces could appear."
BINGO..... a complete mishandling of evidence. NOW YOU TELL ME NIGEL... If this tent was flap flap flappin in gale force winds for weeks and a chunk tore back starting at an existing tear/hole OR a student (amateurs first on scene) ripped it open (you admitted they did) and the section was PEALED BACK..... You get after that tent digging it out of hard snow with an AXE AND SHOVEL..... THE CUTS WILL NOW BE ON THE INSIDE OF THE CANVAS THAT WAS PEALED BACK AND COVERED IN SNOW!!!! WOW... Freaking amazeballs!!!
Right.... I see whats going on here. The items were removed while DIGGING IT... LIKE WITH A FREAKING SHOVEL!! Talking about eye level cut.... Just what is the shovel-head width comparison to those slits Nigel..... Hmmmmmmm?? Think McFly!
The tent was discovered on the slope of the peak "1079", 100-150 m from the top to the northeast. At first glance, the tent seemed snowed, but when we looked at it, we saw that the tent on the entrance side held on to the central peg and was well reinforced with ropes. Another of its edges, too, stayed on the wheel, but since The middle of the tent was covered with snow, and the skylights of the tent on the windward side were severely torn, then the edge sank and was under the snow."
You read that?? "skylights of the tent on the windward side were severely torn" WINDWARD SIDE WAS TORN
So with all this talk of high ass winds etc and statements like this..... You telling me there is NO CHANCE of the darn tent ripping from flap flap flappin in the winds for WEEKS rubbing on god knows what inside?? I call major BS man, MAJOR BS! And dont give me the "oh there was eyelets cut to watch the BL" horse crap.... you have no clue where, when or why those smaller three horizontal holes were made! I told you.... READ THE DARN DIARIES! For petes sakes.... here it is again!
DIARY OF ZINA
It was much easier to go yesterday without backpacks, snow, snow, snow, snow on the banks froze. rivers snow snow.
Lunch was an hour at 4 pm
"After dinner I did just one transfer and stopped to rest. I SEWED UP THE TENT. We lay down to sleep. Igor all the time was rude, I just did not recognize him. I had to sleep on the wood near the stove."
This damn tent was riddled with holes and in constant need of sewing repair!!!!! Folding, dragging, wet freeze, unfold, rip, oops.. Its also common to store anchoring gear for the tent folded up with it!
After such actions the students, of course, the tent lost its original appearance, and the consequence of no trace near the tent could no longer detect. The snow around the tent was strewn with search engines, and the tracks were sprinkled ...
In the report of the inspection of the tent, Tempalov, in particular, noted that the stretches of the tent on the south side were intact, while the stretches of the tent on the north side were torn off and the whole second half of the tent was covered with snow. The tent was installed on a level platform excavated by students, with a windy side it was torn in the middle part. In his testimony, Tempalov did not say a word about the tent sections, because there were no incisions!
Tempalov wrote that in the right corner of the tent near the entrance lay food and a flask empty from alcohol or vodka (the smell was felt) and that he had the impression that the students drank vodka and had a snack. This was the first version and an attempt by the investigative authorities to falsify the cause of the death of hikers.
In the blood of students, alcohol was not detected (methyl alcohol - not alcohol, but poison)."
"Above all things lay a ski-slit cut into several pieces, apparently, the northern end of the tent was strengthened on it. Decide on the spoilage of the stick, given that in the group there were no substitutes it is possible only under special circumstances."
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA....... The stick (ski pole) was used as an anchor on the Northern end of the tent!!!! Actually was North West but I digress again!!! THE POINT IS..... NO FREAKING TRIPOD FOR BL VIDEO FOOTAGE. Read the GD case files!!!!!
"Under the tent put 8 pairs of skis down attachments. Thanks to the dense snow cover, the tent was installed very firmly. Everything is covered with already clammy snow, except for the southern skate, fortified on a ski pole and tied for a pair of skis. Under the northern ridge there was no stick."
And you thought it was a fancy field expedient tripod for the undercover KGB fancy high speed/low drag futuristic camera thats waterproofed with special BL lenses !!!
wrong wrong wrong..... just admit that you were WRONG!!
Try giving them to me again, might have missed them before (rolls eyes).
Because the pathologist would have spotted the lack of internal bleeding with the two chest fractures (unless he's lying as per coverup). The internal bleeding gives him a rough time as to how long they lived after the trauma. LD circa 15min, SZ longer. Incidentally that fits with the transfer of clothing from LD to SZ. Assuming the autopsy is genuine then they died of those injuries.
But if they wanted to hide the cause of death, why not wait until the summer? They'd come back to find just skeletons spread all over the mountain by predators.
What are they going to measure that isn't known?
I don't think you're factoring the high winds and cold, it's a tough place to look for a needle in a haystack.
Also Ivanov came on the scene late after they'd fired the first guy. By then any evidence had been recorded or lost.
@Nigel, They were in no hurry to investigate, you've done more indepth work on your BL theory. They used no measuring tools at the scene, probed with ski poles, were seriously lacking in investigative photos, compromised evidence, cutting it..on and on. Then fed preposterous theories and disinformation.
They tossed out things like some super force crushed bones without surface bruising...
How about a moose used them as footpath post mortem?! ...
@Nigel, haha, Yes, indeed, my friend and why do you think that is? They're probably data-mining this sites info to see what sticks!
I already gave you like 6 examples of how he fubared the investigation. Whether it be on purpose, because he is a moron, or both.
You didnt even let me get to the thyroid gland crap!!!!
Q. Why do it if they knew where the bodies were buried?
A. Because they didn't and they had concerns wrt defection. That's why they couldn't wait until the summer and go back for the skeletons. They just didn't know what had happened.
Lyndasez - give me your case for a coverup. What are the facts?
Nigel is asking for facts ? strange, he argues BL without any facts
@Nigel, "According to ex-governor of the Sverdlovsk region, Senator Eduard Rossel, the tragedy on the Dyatlov Pass still remains strictly classified information."
Pravda.Ru 08.14.2017
Red herrings ..left an right!
This site has pretty good info..on blunders an whatnot, hard to navigate:
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fmurders.ru%2FDyatloff_group_1.html&edit-text =
"Investigator Ivanov was not too lazy to get the number of the newspaper "Tagilsky Rabochiy" dated February 18, 1959, which - for a minute! - was not sold in Sverdlovsk and cut out a note about an unusual celestial phenomenon. The investigator did not leave any explanations for his manipulations in the case, thus allowing the interested parties to independently puzzle over the hidden logic of his behavior."
@Anna Yordanova, you are correct! Unfortunately the lead investigator, this knucklehead, Ivanov is a student of Russian cover-up and an disinformation. He pretty much threw out the rule book and did everything he shouldn't, if he did anything, based on accounts I've read. Facts are few and far between...
Nigel, You neglected to add, "under a powerful microscope."
Like I said, without me seeing the entire negative, it's difficult to determine.. the key is, are we looking at a negative (unprocessed film) or positive (processed) true image.
@Nigel, the film, if it contained actual photos, to me, they've been ruined (over-exposed) this is based on the few snippets of them posted, if that's any comfort.
@Loose Cannon, thanks for sharing those sweet finds, awesome work!
@Nigel, the film, if it contained actual photos, to me, they've been ruined (over-exposed) this is based on the few snippets of them posted, if that's any comfort.
@Loose Cannon, thanks for sharing those sweet finds, awesome work!
@Nigel, the film, if it contained actual photos, to me, they've been ruined (over-exposed) this is based on the few snippets of them posted, if that's any comfort.
@Loose Cannon, thanks for sharing those sweet finds, awesome work!
Got that right.
Based on this they had already gone too far west with the 31 Jan camp/labaz.
Soooo, on the 30th jan they were already commiting to this change of plan even though ID had his doubts about it.... I'm seeing a purpose to all of this...
Dream on...
Flowing Ivanov.... A full blown idiot. AND HE DIDN'T SOLVE THE CASE. but I guess neither will you, so its fitting. What kinda kangaroo court you guys have over there anyhow??!?
You act as though BL is the only theory with evidence whatever.... THE BL THEORY IS 100% BASED ON FALSE FACTS AND CONJECTURE. IT IS NO BETTER THEN ANY OTHER THEORY. And THAT is a fact.
A huge chunk? of your theory just vaporized before our eyes regarding your holy grail three balls bs. Your already doubling down. Wow
Left late.... Did you bother to see when they stopped the delay before or take in account how tired they were, OR how long it takes to setup the tent etc the night before and the morning after? Nope.... Completely blinded by AL contributing factors. Your only going to see what you want to see. You cannot be helped... Its like a disease.
Remember, we don't need make a theory fit or explain your BL false facts. Example... When someone says 'they were murdered', you say 'how does murder explain the three heads exposure'. Complete nonsense.
So a good point but inconclusive?)
@Nigel, that is manipulated film. Examples:
?... convert your Lubitel+ into a 35mm machine with the included “Lubikin” set – allowing you to snap vertical panoramic images with exposed sprocket holes.?
16mm film fed through a 35mm gate (so you can see the sprocket holes in the film) on a Sony film scanner, hand-cranked for variance in speed.
Kodak Brownie Target Six-16 with expired roll of 35mm Kodak Portra 160NC. I thought I would shoot sprocket hole photos with this camera rather than respooling 120 film...
The process is pretty easy -- just cushion the roll of 35mm with foam, customize your 120 take up spool with some format reducing rubber bands, and tape the heck out of the camera.
A general rule of thumb when winding between shots is to go 34 clicks. Frame spacing will be tight at the beginning of the roll, and then you'll have gaps as you get towards the end. Nicolai over at Photon Detector has an excellent winding chart for getting more even frame spacing and being efficient with your film. Some people even tape a winding chart to the back of the camera. Just cross out each exposure as you go.
And if you're tired of carrying a changing bag to unwind your 35mm film in complete darkness, Randy over at Holgamods sells a 35mm Holga conversion that allows you to rewind the film in the camera. I can't wait to do some sprocket Holga night photography!
You see if i was there i'd be saying something like, "Guys and girls, we've got to get up early and have a big hike today staying in the forest where the trees will negate any whiteout from the high winds, that way we can catch up on the plan.".
Its a well known little fact they were behind schedule and taking that slight deviation would have kept them out of the deep snow and harder to traverse wooded areas of the lowland. This kept them in open terrain and the following day would be mostly down-hill. It also cut the corner off the route which would additionally make up some time. This isn't rocket science Nigel.... No conspiracy required.
The last entry in the diary (by the group leader) strongly supports the view that they were deviating from the planned route through the forest to use the ridge instead.
So there's a piece of evidence = FACT 1.
FACT 2 = this decision would involve significant discomfort as the stove couldn't be used. Plus there was risk from such an exposed camp. Very high winds etc as ID indicates in his entry.
So we have two FACTS that support the theory that they chose the ridge even though it would be uncomfortable and potentially unsafe.
So now all it takes is to find the unstated motive for this decision. I opt for photographing the lights. You are welcome to posit another theory (good luck).
http://image.ibb.co/ffUK65/0_86fb7_1cb8fd62_XL.jpg .
http://image.ibb.co/cOvgKQ/0_86fb8_b01a455_XL.jpg
http://image.ibb.co/cyBtYk/0_68e1f_62e29b45_XL.jpg .
http://image.ibb.co/bNJ7tk/0_6dc62_7935de82_XL.jpg .
http://image.ibb.co/meU8zQ/0_6dc79_610b3b6d_XL.jpg
Zero evidence what so ever..... completely fabricated conjecture. I have also proven without a doubt Ivanov couldn't distinguish his ass from a hole in the ground.
"there was a light there that night and there is a group of photos from several cameras that could support this"
'Perhaps', but unfortunately that light (if even accurate report) could have literally been..... anything and is in no way shape or form proof or evidence thats what killed 9 people. What other pics are we to believe caught BL now? What 'group'?
It would be good to know the magnification used on the Eagle1 photo as that's a key piece of evidence as it matches the meteorologists report, as is that Ivanov records in that interview that a light was seen near Otorten the night of Feb 1-2.
Whether Ivanov believed in fairies/aliens/yeti isn't important to the BL theory, what's important is that he can see that they went there to photograph a light, there was a light there that night and there is a group of photos from several cameras that could support this (but agreed there's ambiguity).
Still looking good for the BL theory imo
I have downloaded likely hundreds of photos. Mainly of the actual diaries, and the kids 'official papers' if anyone would like my to upload a particular diary, or someones documents to my photosharing, and post them here... just let me know.
In addition, I came across several pictures of the group members bot before and during that I doubt everyone has seen.... if interested
Oh, quality color scans of the tent fabric file also.
The interview I read.... he was scared shitless.
"For me the important point is that he (as the police detective on the case looking at all the evidence) connected the DPI with fireballs"
Nigel... you have ONE biased book 'hinting' at this, while on the other hand ALL other reports have him in clearly the Alien category. I know this book must have had a profound effect on you, but you just have to let it go. Come into the light and back down to earth... no more tunnel vision, no more 'BL does it all' fantasy. Right now your in a state of denial, this denial is self evident by a continuation of mentality doubling-down on a false narrative in efforts re-convince your own self conscious.
Nigel Evans 16-09-2017 23:31 (GMT)
"It looks like the three heads photo is a blow-up and edited version of the famous frame 33 - http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/Krivonischenko-camera-film1-33.jpg .
So looks like i've got to backtrack here"
Nigel.... I dont 'need' to tell you I told you so, but on a positive note, I hope you have learned a valuable lesson, can come away from this more open to ideas, and willing to actually look into other possibilities in equal to BL.
This falling apart of the three heads crap is only one part of several wonky aspects of the BL theory that dont hold water. Believe me, I wish it were as easy to definitively conclude it was BL so I can go on with researching something else and may there be some closure to those involved, but this may never be so.
For me the important point is that he (as the police detective on the case looking at all the evidence) connected the DPI with fireballs, not his beliefs in their composition/source. He was a police detective not a physicist.
Lev Ivanov, followed the extra-terrestrial line of explanation. Most policemen tend to be hard-nosed types who have seen it all by the time they have reached the end of a long career in the police and Ivanov had probably seen his share of the worst of human nature in a large city like Sverdlovsk. He could have stuck with one of the more non-contentious theories such as an avalanche, with regards to the Dyatlov deaths, but he chose to keep to the line of them being killed by something out of this world.
Support there for my "debilitating force" theory wrt the returning three. They got it stronger.
So a good point but inconclusive?
http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Zolotaryov-camera-02.jpg
This .... text format/order of last post got jacked up.
http://image.ibb.co/gGnfeQ/11.jpg
meh.
http://image.ibb.co/jwGHR5/12.jpg
meh.
http://image.ibb.co/nCMdYk/13.jpg
meh.
http://image.ibb.co/k0dgm5/14.jpg
meh.
http://image.ibb.co/dyLu65/15.jpg
meh.
http://image.ibb.co/bEAu65/16.jpg
meg.
http://image.ibb.co/mz2VeQ/17.jpg
meh.
http://image.ibb.co/hD2JYk/18.jpg
BEHOLD>>>> THE LAST EXPOSURE IN THE ROLL.
http://image.ibb.co/ju77R5/19.jpg
Who is yo daddy?
Are you ready?.......
Oh for the love of Sam Houston!!!!
This photo.. http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/thumbs/Krivonischenko-camera-film1-33.jpg
If memory serves me correctly from reading the russian forum. There is no doubt it was the last exposure on one of the cameras film roll and its a basically unanimous consensus this was produced in the photo lab when clicking the shutter on loaded exposure. They would have had to snap the shutter before winding up the roll and opening it up.
They have pics the original negs....... Ill try and find them.
One moment your talking about the super top secret BL watching expedition where the gov 'just had' to have a group of kids get the USSR KGB internal state spy into the backwoods and there "There was no clear reason to be afraid of the lights"
NOW, your referencing the 'guy in the open pit mine' light in the sky report. Im sure you read the part about how he basically shit his pants because it was soooo terrifying .....
Im just wondering which it is.... Shit a volvo turn your hair white terrifying, or pet Johns pluffy kitty kitty innocent no reason to fear?
EITHER
you'd have to get hold of the "The Way of Lenin" article and translate it..
OR
trust a Russian journalist who quotes from the article...
So looks like i've got to backtrack here
Not taken from inside the tent...
Yes, as far as the other cameras are concerned, but SZs was the only one specifically labeled when found and investigated. Also, the Russian forum dedicated to the DPI, they clearly have them the others figured out and sectioned.
So you ARE looking at the SZ specific negs...
^^^^^^ SEE^^^^^^^^ Its called integrity!
I think it would have been more of a shift, but meh. The position they were found looks relative to their injuries.
It's just a vid of the Sex Pistols playing your favourite track..."
It literally says "not avail in your country"
Anywho...... they stink. God saved my ears!!!
@Lyndasez
You make a great point! NO LIGHT SOURCE!
Robot from 3 yrs ago has those photo's from SZ camera to back up his theory
It's just a vid of the Sex Pistols playing your favourite track...
"The fascist regime..."
link no workie in US!
photographs in YOUR opinion.
Probability is an area of mathematics !
http://web.math.princeton.edu/math_alive/3/index.shtml
@LC - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqrAPOZxgzU
I thought so. GOD SAVE THE QUEEN!!
Yes, TX ..... usmc vet.
@KMM - ask your son Happy
I called him last night to ask about arguing "probabilities" with you. He said i could but it would take a lot of time, math, backed up with sources, etc....
@KMM - "your BL theory has company:"
Now you're just taking the piss Happy
Maybe so, but don't you think SZ's photo's fit that theory also ?
Now you're just taking the piss
Robot
3 years ago
""I have thought of the unfortunate and unexplained deaths of these students for some time and as Spock said in Star Trek – quoted from Sherlock Holmes “… when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth…” I originally thought that it may have been the Russian Army with concussion bombs that were dropped on them by accident. The Army had used this location for secret tests. Some mention that the Army secretly arrived at the crime scene 1 week before the rescuers found the bodie.
This could answer a few of the mysteries but not all!
Why their tent was on the side of the mountain and not logically down at the tree line for shelter and fire wood?
The Army could have moved the tent up the mountain to change the crime scene. Why there was radioactive material on some of the clothing and why they were not wearing any protective clothes for the harsh climate? The Army could have changed their clothes and confiscated clothing which showed being radioactive. Though all good explanations, I do believe there is only one explanation that holds up to all the facets of this case! Yeti or Abominable Snow Man - Encounter! On research I found that the small tent used was not their main tent. They had left supplies at a base camp and were using this very small tent for an excursion. What was their purpose for climbing the Ural mountain range? I googled Russian news broadcast for the past year (1958) and found an interesting account of Yeti encounters on this range. That year a number of local Mansi tribe people disappeared. After an investigation, the Russian Government banned all further reporting on the Yeti with threats of incarceration. These students may have been acting as investigating reporters and photographers and needed a cover to conceal their true purpose. The one person they added to their close group was a guide familiar with the territory. A note on a printed paper in their possession was scribbled “From now on we know that the snow men exist”. Although they used guns to protect themselves in the wilderness for previous trips (pictures show), they did not carry any this time in case they were stopped and questioned. Whatever attacked them in their tent did not bite or claw but had extreme power to crush. A similar attack at Yale BC in the 1800’s by some gold miners who claimed to have captured a baby Sasquatch and in Washington State 1920’s of an attack:
http://www.bigfootlives.com/ ...
In 1946 Cultus Lake BC a newlywed couple disappeared from their cabin with only large footprints found surrounding the cabin. Case Scenario The illogical pitching of their tent in the open rather than down at the tree line may have been due to a scare from the locals at the last settlement. Towns’ people warned them about reindeer having been found dead in this area. They may have felt more secure making camp in the open rather than down within the trees. After setting up camp they would have taken off their boots and put their heavy outer wear outside to dry. Due to the limited space within the tent they more than likely stored this gear along with their skies and pack sacks in the overhang where the chimney exits. They then entered the tent using their long johns and tent slippers inside and had supper. Shortly after supper, two of the men went outside to urinate (documented) with a flashlight, which they left on the roof of the tent (documented) and a lighter and cigarettes to have a smoke. It was written in their diary that the women did not want them smoking in the hotel rooms or tent. While outside they were attacked and forced to flee down to the forest for cover. There they built a fire for warmth, to notify the others and to keep any predators away. On hearing the commotion outside the tent, 3 of the students with a flashlight went to help and were also attacked. Unable to reach their outerwear at the back of the tent they too fled down the mountain. The Yeti then centered their attack on the 4 remaining students left in the tent. The Yeti being unable to open the tent door or cut through began to pound on the center of the tent while the students inside sliced their knives back through the tent in defense. It’s been reported that Yeti can use sticks and may have poked through the open slits of the tent with one of the ski poles as it was documented that numerous knife cuts were found on one of the ski poles. The Yeti attack temporarily stopped when they saw the fire down at the tree line and the 3 students heading towards it with the flashlight (documented and found on this trail still in the on position). It has been reported that the Yeti are not afraid of fire or light. The Yeti then caught the 3 students before they could reach the tree line. Yeti use their large powerful arms to club and then bear hug their quarry until subdued and unconscious, all similar injuries reported on the students. Forensic Investigators state that when a body is suffocated the blood does not pool back to the organs, but stays at the extremities. The discoloring of the skin seen on the students at their funeral could have been caused by this injury. Seeing that the fire was attracting the Yeti the 2 students at the tree tried to frantically put it out, it was reported that one of these student’s hands were burnt by this action. Next they proceeded to climb a tree. The report claimed they had climbed the tree to observe if their tent was still there to return to. The problem with this statement is that it was after sunset, in winter, in Russia. I googled if there was a full moon that night and it shows that there was no moon visible, so it would have been pitch dark. The only reason to climb a tree at night would be to try and elude a predator. Sasquatches have been reported with the ability to climb trees. One of the students was found a few hundred feet from the tree still clutching a branch, as though he had been dragged down from the tree. When the remaining 4 students of the group did arrive at the tree, they found their companions dead. They proceeded to remove what clothing they could to keep warm rather than return to their tent and what was back there. They then went to a ravine and dug a snow cave for shelter. Unfortunately the Yeti were waiting for them in the forest and pursued them, cornering them at the ravine some short distance away. One problem with the Yeti theory is that no foot prints were ever found. The explanation is that it was sometime after the encounter, in winter, in a valley known for wind. The Yeti/Sasquatch have a very large bipedal foot, much like a “Bear Paw Snow Shoe” which leaves a very flat shallow print. These prints could easily have disappeared with weather conditions. The final explanation may be the hardest to believe and that is - Why have no further sightings or findings been made of Yeti in this location?
With all of our technologies, these mountains and the world in general have become a lot smaller, but the Universe is immense and unknown. There were unexplained lights in the sky seen by other observers. Strange creatures have been reported all over the world with similar globe light occurrences (Kentucky Goblin Encounter,Chupacabras, Ogopogo, Lochness Monster, and other such things). Many documented encounters with Sasquatch have been reported with similar globe lights seen around their vicinity. Could it be that there are time portals throughout the Universe and these creatures accidentally pass through them? One such strange occurrence happened in Manila in 1593 where a guard was suddenly transported to Mexico City.
http://www.psychic101.com/teleportation-learn.html
Could UFO’s seen in the area be trying to relocate these Yetis back to their rightful locations?
Could a nuclear blast such as the 1957-58 Russian accidental nuclear explosion at Kyshtym ( just a few miles south of Oblast Swerdlowsk where these students were) cause a rip in our universe?
This accident reportedly killed 1000’s of people and contaminated a 100 square kilometer area with high level radiation.
Could the radiation on their clothing have come from physical contact with these entities ?
Here is this photo again, Its surely evidence of UFOs, ball lightning, OH WAIT, ITS A LIGHT BULB !
https://www.wired.com/2014/08/wtf-just-happened-shoot-the-moon/
Something profound in that, somehow defines you. Can't think why...
@KMM - "WHY ARE WE EVEN SEEING THEM?"
Very good point, as i understand they have been made avaialable (leaked?) to one of the key DPI players in Russia who was part of the original rescue team many years after the fact who has made them available on the internet. - http://www.dyatlov-pass-incident.com/valentin-yakimenkos-study-groups-negatives/ . It may be Ivanov never saw them..
There is the chance of fakery here of course.
However we are discussing these pictures because you said that the burden was one me to prove they are real. I have shown that many of those images are supported by independent witness statements and recent visits to the DP for which you have no answer (don't blame you btw). The supporting evidence for these images is way above coincidence.
The meteorologist, Tokareva, gives the most detailed description of the fireball: To the Director of the Ivdel Police Department 15.03.59: At 6:50 local time a comet was seen in the sky. The tail was similar to that of dense cirrus clouds. Then the star became free from the tail, became brighter, and flew away. It began gradually to swell and became a large ball surrounded in mist. Inside this ball a star began to burn, from which, first, a crescent was formed, and then an entire ball, but not as bright. The large ball began to fade and became like a blur. It disappeared at 7:05. The star moved from the south to the northeast.
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (pp. 100-101). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
Now if anyone wants to contest the similarity of the above then they need to ask themselves are they being ridiculous..."
Sooo..... a BL report at a dif time and area. AWESOME! Now, how does this prove a fireball killed the group?
Ill make it easy for you.... it DOESN'T
BINGO!!! ITS ALL BS
"Don't think there's an easy way to resolve that one."
No Nigel.... its clearly out out of the exposure area entirely.
@Raitelis
"2. Something caused the hikers to cut thru their tent"
Not judging by the actual case files.... There is plenty of evidence suggesting the search crew dug out the tent and its contents with an axe and shovels which cut the canvas on the inside surface when flaps WHERE PEALED BACK making the inside....now facing outward.
"Mansi likely argued w/ the hikers in order to keep them out of a Sacred area"
Pretty sure it is NOT a sacred area.
If that damaged film is so important why didn't the OFFICIAL investigation pay any attention to it?
WHY ARE WE EVEN SEEING THEM? If they were taken by a KGB agent, on a SECRET MISSION, (while getting 8 others killed) WHY aren't they locked away somewhere in some secret archive?
awaiting your next "could of been, might of happened this way"
2. Something caused the hikers to cut thru their tent
3. Something caused the hikers the flee the safety of the tent quickly, without even much clothing.. Theory...the Mansi likely argued w/ the hikers in order to keep them out of a Sacred area....even warning them of snowmen...indeed one of the hikers may have made a passing reference to Snowmen being real, possibly indicating they were being shadowed...likely by Mansi....on the night of the incident Mansi began making loud and weird seemingly inhuman sounds..trying to impersonate snowmen...this caused the hikers to cut holes in the tent to see what was making the sounds...as the sounds grew closer, louder and more threatening some or even most of the hikers panicked and ran for it...as they regrouped... one of them climbed a tree to see if they was really anything out there even as others began to freeze to Death..the few that survived after taking the clothes of the recently dead were finished off by the Mansi ..remember the Mansi aren't stupid...they made the murders look consistent w/ their own legends of Snowmen attacks...this is especially obvious w/ the removal of the tongue of one of the girls..something even modern Mansi are quick to point out...is the signature of a snowman attack...this fits the core facts of the case...there are other aspects of this case that have been added later that are likely fictional add ons...Case Solved??
One man's blurred object is anothers emulsion degradation? Don't think there's an easy way to resolve that one.
------------------
A mysterious object was discovered near the site, where hikers died when trying to cross the Dyatlov Pass. Amateur radio engineer and researcher of paranormal phenomena Valentin Degtyarev believes that the structure that was found on the site may have a connection with the tragedy that took place there in the winter of 1959.
It goes about a construction 25-30 meters long and 10-15 meters wide. The construction was found at a distance of ten kilometers from the site, when a group of hikers died in 1959. The construction, Degtyarev believes, could be a part of a bunker that had been built in the Ural mountains during the times of the Cold War.
The researcher assumes that the group of hikers could find themselves on the pass the day when neutron weapons were tested. This may explain the presence of radioactive substances on the clothes of one of the victims. The death of the hikers could be a reason, for which the tests were wrapped up. The underground building was blown up and mothballed. The upper part of the bunker is still visible on satellite images.
The Dyatlov Pass is considered to be one of the most mysterious areas of hiker routes in the Urals. In February 1959, nine skiers of a hiker club were killed near Mount Otorten under unclear circumstances. Igor Dyatlov was the leader of the group. The bodies that were subsequently found on the site shocked forensic experts: most of the people froze to death, whereas traces on the bodies of other victims indicated that they had died violent deaths.
The pass was named in memory of the hiker group led by Igor Dyatlov. Some researchers believe that the hikers died as a result of an explosion of a ballistic missile.
According to ex-governor of the Sverdlovsk region, Senator Eduard Rossel, the tragedy on the Dyatlov Pass still remains strictly classified information.
Pravda.Ru 08.14.2017
Compare the claimed photos of DP lights in 2012 :-
http://www.viafanzine.jor.br/002imag/03_13/dyatlov4_objeto.jpg .
http://www.viafanzine.jor.br/002imag/03_13/dyatlov4_objeto2.jpg .
With :-
http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Zolotaryov-camera-04.jpg .
http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Zolotaryov-camera-05.jpg .
http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Zolotaryov-camera-07.jpg .
Seem similar? Bit of a coincidence even for the nonBLievers?....
Q.E.D.2. Arguing with you guys is just too easy...
SZ went to the DP with a "non recreational camera" and it is claimed that Eagle1 (Eagle2 is a blowup) is part of what he shot that night - http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Zolotaryov-camera-08.jpg .
Compare it with the report from a highly credible witness in the same period.
The meteorologist, Tokareva, gives the most detailed description of the fireball: To the Director of the Ivdel Police Department 15.03.59: At 6:50 local time a comet was seen in the sky. The tail was similar to that of dense cirrus clouds. Then the star became free from the tail, became brighter, and flew away. It began gradually to swell and became a large ball surrounded in mist. Inside this ball a star began to burn, from which, first, a crescent was formed, and then an entire ball, but not as bright. The large ball began to fade and became like a blur. It disappeared at 7:05. The star moved from the south to the northeast.
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (pp. 100-101). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
Now if anyone wants to contest the similarity of the above then they need to ask themselves are they being ridiculous...
Note that's not the only similarity compare - "The large ball began to fade and became like a blur."
with
http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Zolotaryov-camera-02.jpg .
http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Zolotaryov-camera-03.jpg .
http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Zolotaryov-camera-10.jpg .
Q.E.D.
Sheesh... and you talk about people not reading YOUR posts. Wow.... its like 'wow', but backwards.
Absolutely, as said below there could have been a basket of reasons for adding him to the group. My theory is that he or they wanted to include getting some photos of the lights. See how easy it is when we agree
@KMM - Sounds like a capitulation
Springbank 15, i like my whiskey like my women, dark, sweet and with a hint of engine oil...
Is that blended whiskey ?
I know you would really like to twist things to suite the BL theory Nigel but this is over the moon loco sheet man.
What Nigel is NOT telling everyone, is that the COMMUNIST GOV RAN UNIVERSITY instructed the leader of the college search team to IMMEDIATELY REPORT ANY INDICATIONS THE DYATLOV GROUP MAY HAVE BEEN ATTEMPTING TO DEFECT TO THE US THROUGH THE NORTHERN REGIONS.
Justified or not.... the state had their suspicions and likely had PRIOR to the group setting out. SOUNDS LIKE A REASONABLE PURPOSE FOR SZ TO BE ADDED TO ME!!
KMM is right! You need to prove the photo is real or accept the original case file stating 'damaged'. I would expect the experts that opened the damn thing would know what 'damaged' means!
3 butt-cheeks, heads, fingers, fabric rolls, flashlight, lantern, lab exposure before removing film..... DAMAGED!.. YOU HAVE NO DAMN CLUE WHAT THE TRUTH IS..... nobody does. You can only state an opinion, and your opinion does not constitute FACT.
Again, if its a real exposure.... it could just as easily be a flashlight which could indicate murder/s. But its not real... I have seen the actual evidence pics of the cut sections and the canvas is thick and has a very tight weave. Its exactly like the military canvas I am familiar with. If you think those are fabric rolls, I can tell you for a fact canvas does not do this AND especially not when still attached on either end keeping tension on it. You also have a major issue with the wave pattern and size. "if" those are slits, then in order to have all three in the frame would require you to be a good 2 feet of more back from the canvas..... at this distance you will NOT see a large open weave patters as suggested the three balls exposure depicts.
Admit it.... repeat after me...
THERE IS NO WAY POSSIBLE FOR ANYONE TO SAY WITH ANY LEVEL OF CERTAINTY WHAT THAT EXPOSURE DEPICTS
"So again, On the ONLY night he sets up to photograph lights, without knowing if there will be any, the whole group gets attacked by these lights. not once, but 2 or 3 times. You can't see how ridiculous you have become ? "
You can't argue a scenario wrt the DPI based on probabilities! Jeez the probable outcome of that night is that they wake up in the morning! All the scenarios are very improbable. Internal/external murder/aliens/yetis/wind/BL all extremely improbable and extremely difficult to align with the facts like the injury profile. We're very definately in improbable territory here. If you don't accept that then you're being ridiculous. So your point just isn't made, probable is a false argument.
"Definitely damaged, They lay in snow, ice, water for 3 months ! All you have to do is look at them to see. All but the first one has been magnified so much their meaningless. The first one was accidental exposure in the lab.
Seems like you have to prove them to be real, your the one claiming them to be real."
Well PROVING isn't easy but :-
(a) thanks to google / youtube i can point to images and vids that support the case that there is strong similarity with "real lights". The 2012 @ DP picture being key. But there's also a video of Hessdalen that films a similar light with this asymmetric structure looking like a "T".
(b) also there is an argument that if the images were exposed by SZ then he wasn't just photographing dark sky and he wasn't wasting frames. He didn't have a zoom so it's valid that some of the shots are highly magnified, that doesn't invalidate them.
(c) the eagle1 shot is absolutely the same as an eyewitness report from that period. A light surrounded by a mist. The eagle1 on it's own says they're real.
(d) i don't accept your determination for the three heads pic. I'll throw your improbable argument back at you, how probable is it that a photo that looks like a shot of a bright light through a canvas slit in a snowstorm could accidental? A trillion to one?
(e) wrt water damage the theory is that this camera wasn't commercial grade but military grade and waterproof. I'm not aware of cold damaging film?
Can't think of anything else, whiskey permitting : ).
Seems like you have to prove them to be real, your the one claiming them to be real.
So again, On the ONLY night he sets up to photograph lights, without knowing if there will be any, the whole group gets attacked by these lights. not once, but 2 or 3 times.
You can't see how ridiculous you have become ?
Fakes or damage? Personally i think damage is ridiculous. Faked is possible of course.
That's REALLY, REALLY stretching it, a LOT farther then I am willing to go>
Other priorities would include raising confidence in the students safety, he was an alpine expert and ww2 veteran. It is claimed that there was another kgb agent in the group "K" presumably AK or YK, at least one of whom worked in sensitive nuclear sites so (at a guess) it ticked a few boxes back at HQ. It may have been that SZ took the mission more seriously than his superiors perhaps.
Whatever it's no accident that they chose that campsite, they left late and went straight up camping near the ridge just 500m from the nearest point of the treeline. Very hard to argue that they were lost.
A transfer of radioactive material makes much more sense.
Whilst i respect people's passion i do think we should all show each other more respect. Nothing wrong with a bit of sarcasm and parody though, particularly when LC and myself cross swords. All good entertainment. But with respect. Shout at the opinion not at the person.
Concerning your post :-
"Everyone glosses over the fact these guys were ill equipped to survive any threats they encountered. No flares?"
Flares would be of no use, there was no settlement nearby to see them. Anyway even if the flare was seen and even reported there was no rescue infrastructure. That was the attraction for these youngsters, really out in the wild places.
"If SZ were an agent to study "lights," do you not agree he'd have a telescope or binoculars...or a telescopic lens on the camera?"
Well he's got to carry that stuff and probably a telescopic lens of that era would be much heavier. I'm guessing he opted for getting closer rather than carrying a pile of stuff. From memory the male members of the group set off with backpacks weighing 50kg so not much room onboard.
"I understand your logic about the the choice of unrestricted skyline...if he was to observe all this phenomena, but couldn't he walk to a clearing"
No that's the point the snow being whipped up off the back of the ridge ruled out a clearing or climbing a tree. Just 200m of altitude below the ridge and the sky could be a near whiteout. 200m higher and you're above it.
"instead making them sitting ducks? I mean wouldn't this raise questions and too many concerns about his choices between the group?"
There was no clear reason to be afraid of the lights other than mansi superstition would be the thinking. Someone went to the DP in 2012 and photographed these lights even with the benefit of hindsight. A light in the sky isn't scary until it comes and sits next to you...
Hi Nigel, re: the "three heads" photo -- if you examine it -- you'll see that the two "heads" on the right are not rounded like the one on the left -- I think what we're seeing is FIVE HEADS -- the two on the right look to me to be occluding / overlapping of two each.
5 heads?? I can't believe the utter bullshit you & ballman keep coming up with......
There's nothing special about you John. You're delusional & have no idea of self awareness.
Keep the preposterous shit coming, it's good for a chuckle.
Have a nice day.
To address your theory of SZ being a KGB to study lights in the area....
Everyone glosses over the fact these guys were ill equipped to survive any threats they encountered. No flares? How good is an important mission under those circumstances? If SZ were an agent to study "lights," do you not agree he'd have a telescope or binoculars...or a telescopic lens on the camera? I confess I haven't delved into the many theories, just cursory...so I try reserve comment on them. I understand your logic about the the choice of unrestricted skyline...if he was to observe all this phenomena, but couldn't he walk to a clearing instead making them sitting ducks? I mean wouldn't this raise questions and too many concerns about his choices between the group?
Wrt to your question - "Why did Mr. brilliant leader choose that locale when the forest would've given them break from the wind and a place to secure the stove?!"
"My BL theory" has it that SZ was a KGB agent on a mission to examine the reports of "lights" in this area, was equipped with a camera for night photography and he was attached to the group by the government agency that provided permission for the trip. So he would have had some serious influence on ID. On the 31 Jan they got to the base camp from which they would start ascending to Mt Otorten. The wind was very strong and coming from the West. Hence it was whipping up a lot of snow off the back of the ridge and into the forest that contained their planned route. This snow made it difficult to observe and photograph any lights so he decided that "the mission " was best served by camping as close to the ridge as was sensible the stove not deployed but filled with firewood just in case. So that's what they did, they left at 3pm and went straight up there. It wasn't ID's decision in fact he records in the diary (the last ever entry) - "We started fire with logs, too tired to dig a fire pit. We had supper right in the tent. It's warm. It is hard to imagine such a comfort somewhere on the ridge, with a piercing wind, hundreds kilometers away from human settlements.". Imo he's indicating he's being overruled on the plan, he doesn't like the idea of the ridge but has to comply.
Mr. Wolfe your post is irrational...an silly.
------------------
"Lyndasez 09-14-2017 22:09 (GMT) ---- your comments are even less useless than the vitriol of loose shorts --"
a.) Triggered much?
"1) Ssooooo -- what match-book gave you your PhD in Psychology ?"
a.) Don't need a PhD to use inductive reasoning..
"2) what's that got to do with MIT ?"
a.) Where you flew off to here, is beyond me. You compared the Russian students to the caliber of American... to which I posted (excerpt of crime committed by an MIT student) neutralizing your argument that both are super rational humans...
"3) you seem to be agreeing with me on that one,"
a.) not a chance...
"4) actually, they did go off in an organized group"
a.) So?! Where was the threat then?! They weren't equipped it seems to deal with any! Did they even have binoculars, telescope, lighter, how bout a distress flare?Wth????
"5) your future posts -- don't bother -- as I'm not going to waste my time on them"
a.) Yes, waste it on another pill or pint, and RELAX, man...this is a discussion board, you're not gonna be graded.
Well if the sole source of these reports is from that looo.ch site then there's cause for concern. I try not to base too much on internet sites, a lot of chinese whispers out there.
Disappointing he's too busy to look at a possible phenomena that is often quoted as an embarrassment of modern physics. Sign of the times, too much specialism.
When I first read these two accounts I was fascinated with the two stories -- however my fascination was in part because of a mis-reading of the two accounts. I had originally thought that the two events happened about ten years apart (as that is -- ie 10 years -- WHEN the second guy, the forester, started looking for the mining watchman guy from the first account; he had seen an article in the local newspaper -- and never forgot his experience of it) But then I started to look at the details of the two stories and realized we'd all been pranked -- by some Soviet teens, no doubt.
1) -- first of all -- the events happened only about two weeks apart, and it was summer, when school is out, and kids stay up late; some playing pranks. I checked the dates on both reports -- less than two weeks apart -- but it was THE NEWSPAPER ARTICL about the mining watchman's experience, that got the forester's attention, which was in a local paper ten years later. Also -- the two events happened somewhat close to one another. Don't have the books in front of me -- about 40 km apart, as I recall.
2) both events had the exact same appearance - with the exact same "behavior" of the lights. (I don't think ball lightning would duplicate its actions at a different location / or time --- its actions being somewhat random.
3) in both, the big light kept turning off when the "victim" looked at it -- as the light operator would see the glowing pupils and know he was being looked at.
4) both events had "swinging " but much smaller, lights. Like a couple of guys walking with a flashlight (sorry - torch) in each hand.
5) sounds like a fun thing to do.
---- any thoughts ? ----
Have to go for now, I'm getting fitted for a custom adult onesie tomorrow to match my binky and I'm super excited. Do you guys cosplay? Toodaloo!
1) Ssooooo -- what match-book gave you your PhD in Psychology ?
2) what's that got to do with MIT ?
3) you seem to be agreeing with me on that one,
4) actually, they did go off in an organized group
5) your future posts -- don't bother -- as I'm not going to waste my time on them
6) have a nice day, Linda
@KMM - "I argue lots of stuff with him. BTW, he doesn't buy into BL DPI "
Good for him, what's his opinion of the three heads, eagle photos and the 2012 pics?
He says "he doesn't have time for this"
https://hubpages.com/religion-philosophy/Scary-Unexplained-Mysteries-The-Dyatlov-Pass-Incident
Lev Ivanov, the lead investigator on the case, concluded that the party had been killed by an ‘unknown compelling force’. But privately he became convinced they had been killed by aliens.
https://theunredacted.com/dyatlov-pass-incident-mountain-of-the-dead/
During the time of the journey, lead investigator, Lev Ivanov, was convinced that the party had been killed by aliens.
https://www.theodysseyonline.com/cold-case-mystery-2-the-supernatural-deaths-of-9-hikers-at-dyatlov-pass
Privately, he told people he thought they’d been killed by aliens in a UFO
http://midnightinthedesert.com/dyatlov-pass-indicent-what-slaughtered-nine-hikers-on-siberias-death-mountain-in-1959/
Hey Nigel my little buddy... What if your three cocks exposure is actually evidence of a bright ass flashlight?? Whoah.... Entire BL theory goes poof! Perhaps lends credentials to the murder theory.....
You have no idea what that exposure is. Fact
#1 = internal murder theory somehow, dunno the details, but they definately got beat to shit.
#2 = external murder theory somehow, dunno the details, but they definately got beat to shit.
#3 = murder by methanol theory somehow, dunno the details, but they definately got methanoled.
#4 - act of god theory, fuck knows how as long as they get beat to shit.
#5 = BL theory, lots of detail and supported with photographs, but doesn't include that they got beat to shit.
Incorrect, he said - "By the way, I do not mean that these UFOs are connected with aliens. A UFO is an unidentified flying object, and that’s it. A lot of data speaks of the fact that [the UFOs] can be bursts of energy not understood by modern science, but which affect life and the environment.
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (p. 138). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition. "
Good for him, what's his opinion of the three heads, eagle photos and the 2012 pics?
Lyndasez.... OUTSTANDING!.... Another poster capable of critical thinking that's not cornered themselves into a mental box prison.
Allow me to clarify, some were wrapped more tightly than others. In photos some are clowning around, whereas, Igor appears on the outside looking in..
And to your comparison to the likes of MIT students, I submit this: "On Thursday, November 22 (1971), a former MIT student named Larry J. Harmon entered St. Aloysius Roman Catholic Church in Spokane, Washington - his home-town; He was armed with a sledge hammer and a clip-fed .22 caliber rifle. With the hammer he smashed the interior of the church and with the rifle he killed the caretaker, 68 year old Hilary Kunz."
-- "as for all the talk of love and kissing -- what else do 20'something college students talk about when they are relaxing? "
According to you they would be discussing the Riemann hypothesis or string theory!
Concerning the stove- yes, I know it wasn't erected that night, which also concerns me. Why did Mr. brilliant leader choose that locale when the forest would've given them break from the wind and a place to secure the stove?!
"please note: Igor was chosen for the group leader because he had led groups in that area before -- more than one time. This was a school club."
I know this to, 4 hikes i believe was stated. So? What was his disaster training, think the girls had as many hikes ...and 1 was bitten by a viper and the other accidentally shot.. if Igor was so good at this wouldn't they all have been kept together, instead of splintered off?
For the record.... Since conversing with Nigel, the BL possibly (for me) has been reduced to #4 or #5 on my list.
Your too kind LC. I've got it below Yeti, and Lev Ivanov's
"Ivanov firmly believed that UFOs and alien technology was responsible for the unexplained mystery".
Which would be farther down my list.
I really like Ian's conclusion - he has by far explained what might have happened to the individuals with the most plausable explanation. Whether or not it was soldiers is probably the only "iffy" part of the explanation. It could have been natives or soldiers - doesn't matter. It definitely fits the clues left.
Me 14-01-2016 17:24 (GMT)
They were obviously murdered somehow.
Ian 13-08-2016 14:11 (GMT)
These were young people full of life and ability, who would have brought a lot of good into the world if they had been able to live out their natural lifetimes. The sheer tragedy of this story hasn’t allowed it to leave my mind for days. At least for me, trying to put together a rational explanation of the events brings a little bit of closure. I’m not saying that the hypothetical scenario that follows is what happened, but I do think it fits all of the available evidence. What do you think?
Sometime during the day or evening of Feb 1st, the Dyatlov group encountered a clandestine testing or training operation perhaps involving jets or rockets (This would explain the reports of glowing orange lights and the military debris in the area later noted by YY). It wasn’t the type of situation where there was a fear of the hikers leaking photographs of a secrete weapon (their cameras would have simply been confiscated). For some reason, the group itself came to be perceived as the threat.
The group’s journal records that as they were traveling towards the beginning point of their hike, they sometimes sung anti-revolution songs that could have landed them in jail. They twice had scrapes with authorities on their trip (once for singing). Also from the journal, it appears that they enjoyed free and open debates about a variety of topics. Later, out in the woods hundreds of km from the nearest settlement (journal entry), they probably would have felt even greater freedom in such expressions. Entering into the area of an ongoing operation may have brought them under surveylence, perhaps without their knowledge. An overheard song or a frank debate about politics, combined with their chance-but-perceived-as-“suspicious” presence in a sensitive area, caused them to be viewed as subversive.
They camped that night on open high ground. When one of the members, perhaps SZ or NYB, stepped outside to relieve himself, if it was clear, his flashlight would have been visible for a long distance, alerting anyone in the area who might not have already been aware of their tent’s precise location. Minutes later, as the group was finishing dinner and drying out their clothes, a small armed detachment arrived at the tent. Whoever it was (I’ll call them “soldiers”) knocked the tent down, fired a few rounds into the air, and ordered the hikers outside or they would be shot. (Supposedly, there were no footprints other than the Dyaltov party’s at the tent, but how could one tell? Surely the Dyaltov group made many boot prints when they set up camp, obviously the rescuers were wearing boots days later when they got to the tent. At first no one suspected it could be a crime scene. It is not just possible but probable that a couple extra pairs of footprints at the tent would have gone unnoticed).
Unexpected gunfire and barking orders would have sent a momentary jolt of fear into even these level-headed travelers. Members of the group who had pocket knives at hand quickly cut through the tent to get everyone outside before the threat was carried out. The multiple cuts in the tent were created in the panic and confusion of exiting a wriggling collapsed tent cover in the dark.
The soldiers wanted to neutralize the hikers, but to leave bullet holes or other obvious wounds would have eventually led to strong demands for an explanation from the community. The soldiers chose to expose them to the cold. Under some guise, the soldiers told the Dyatlov group that they had to leave the area immediately. With great presence of mind, the group leader, ID grabbed a flashlight and his heavy coat as he was leaving the tent. He was immediately ordered to leave them behind, setting the flashlight on the tent, and throwing his coat down, near the spot where he had exited (It’s difficult to conceive of another logical scenario that would explain these objects being found where they were).
The Dyaltov party was followed, but not very far. (Their being followed some distance would explain the heeled boot track found among their own tracks as they headed down slope - No one in the group was wearing such boots at this time). They dropped a lit flashlight on the way, either because they were ordered to do so, or in hopes of using it as a beacon to direct them back to the tent if the soldiers left.
Poorly clothed, in extreme cold, and possibly in the dark, these resilient people covered half the distance that they traveled in their entire day’s hike, to arrive at the nearest tree line. This probably took quite a bit of time, and they knew that with their level of exposure the clock was against them. They set up a small base camp under a pine tree, just out of site of the tent, and together built an emergency fire (an impressive feat with frozen wood, in the cold, with no gloves, and possibly in the dark). Afraid that the soldiers were still at the tent, and unsure if they would pursue, YD and YK were posted near the fire to keep a lookout for the soldiers’ approach. (This would explain why branches were broken off so high up in the tree on the side of the tent, when other branches would have been easier to obtain.) Perhaps they kept a lookout from up in the tree as long as they could. Many or all of the injuries on these two individuals were from exposed hands getting frost bite in the tree, eventually leading to them falling out.
The rest of the group proceeded to build a shelter in a protected area, near, but out of site of the lookout tree. The small fire of frozen wood was not enough to keep the injured YD, and YK warm. Even though they burned parts of their numb extremities, they fell asleep. Either someone in the group was with them, or came back to them, showing care and respect by placing the bodies next to each other. The outer clothes, no longer of any use to the deceased, were removed. At this point, the shelter was not yet finished, because some of their clothing was incorporated into it. The survivors did their best to stay warm in the shelter, but were dangerously cold and heartbroken over the deaths.
Shortly before dawn, the soldiers returned to make sure no one was left to tell the tale. They discovered the shelter, and a hand-to-hand fight ensued. (This would explain many’s of the group’s injuries, including the bruised metacarples on ID and RS, RS’s concussion, and the baton bruise on ZK.) Exhausted and freezing, the group was now no match for their assailants even without the use of their guns).
ID, RS, and ZK managed to break free into the darkness. They made a run for the tent, desperate for the axes or anything to help their friends. (Such a level of desperation would explain why they left the group, the shelter, and the fire, when they were so close to freezing that they could only go a few hundred more yards). ZK, a strong and brave young woman came the closest to making it.
As for the group that was left, the soldiers pressed LD and SZ to death, broke YK’s neck, and crushed TBS’s skull, neutralizing them without leaving any obvious weapon mark. (Such a grim scenario would explain the types of injuries sustained by the party members found in the ravine - crushed chests with none of the external cuts or arm injuries that would have certainly happened in a fall, explain why they were all found outside of their nearby shelter, explain the fragment of soldier’s garb found in the ravine, and explain why it was subsequently taken out of evidence). The autopsies of these group members were the most vague, because the coroners had no choice. More detail would have raised still more questions from the community and gotten them in official hot water.
It is significant that YY, who was a part of the group, knew the Dyatlov party’s circumstances better than any living person, and saw all or most of the original evidence, thought that the military had something to do with his friend’s deaths. In 2008, 6 of the original rescuers and a team of 31 experts came to the similar conclusion that military testing was involved. The official report was that the Dyatlov group died at the hands of an “unknown compelling force”. How could words come closer to summarizing the above, without implicating the party responsible? This may also explain why the military closed the area for the following three years.
Any thoughts?
Robs 04-10-2016 17:50 (GMT)
These were scientific professionals not your average man off the street. Something happened in the or around the tent that made 9 people panic and evacuate the tent under extreme pressure. Knowing it was minus 20+ they left without clothing and equipment. We already agreed that they ran from the tent not walked so that already falsified the report saying they walked in single file. I see no evidence of BL or the phonomia of the low wave sounds that "send people mad". The BL to strike in 3 different locations and kill multiple persons is at best highly unlikely. We are missing something if they didn't read the tracks correctly as mentioned above then they could have missed other things in my opinion
CE399_ 19-10-2016 19:21 (GMT)
Comment to Robs:
Group infighting does not explain the hurried exit from the tent unless someone pulled a gun on the rest of the group. Or say, grabbed Lyuda and threatened to slit her throat if the rest of the group didn't do as he said.
Zolotaryov had the most unstable personal life going into the trip. He was a serial job-hopper. That is often a sign of an acute personality or psychological disorder that suddenly erupts. He was a loner and from a culture that almost required marriage yet remained unmarried at an age that was considered too old.
Zolotaryov had strange tattoos which are not that unusual for hardcore Soviet military men except that they were too cryptic in way that was not normal.
Zolotaryov was a Cossack from a group that was 97% wiped out by Stalin's genocide. He survived by joining the Soviet army and proving himself loyal to them. To abandon your familial heritage and join the enemy has to mean something is askew or will go askew with you psychologically at some point. And Zolotaryov had a very askew career and personal life.
Zolotaryov was an unvetted outsider with a very suspicious past that included World War II service where Soviet soldiers committed genocide, murder, torture and rape on a scale that certainly touched his experience if not fully involved him.
I would agree that infighting could have been what happened if Zolotaryov had not suffered the same violent death as Lyuda.
Zolotaryov was well clothed when he died of internal trauma. The rather mediocre coroners said there were no "external signs of injury" i.e. bruising to match the cracked ribs. This has been mistakenly attributed as evidence that the "overwhelming force" was some mysterious electromagnetic beam weapon.
Every other member of the group had a lengthy history with each other that rules out any of them as being involved in a fatal infighting incident.
Only Zolotaryov could have been the cause of an infighting conflict that drove them to their deaths. His background paints a very troubled person. But nothing that indicates he was a sociopath.
The biggest problem with trying to pin it on Zolotaryov is that he died with the other victims in a way that could not have been self-inflicted. And there just isn't another person who can be fingered with any reasonable degree of evidence. The group was also nearer the beginning of the trip than the end. Nerves get frayed during an expedition of several days but the group had not been traveling in the wilderness as a group, out of contact with the rest of the world, for more than four days. And they had not encountered any significant difficulties that would accelerate interpersonal tensions.
Someone from the outside attacked the group and did so for reasons that were personal and excluded most of the group.
Because Lyuda was so viciously attacked and two other men with her were killed violently, the most logical scenario is that the attacker(s) drove the group suddenly out of the tent.
At some point, some of them fought back and escaped. Some of them were seriously injured in the process and all were too weak and vulnerable to survive which would explain why the attacker(s) did not pursue them.
A person improperly clothed in a storm at -25 Celsius isn't going to survive the night. The escapees tried to get a fire going and climbed a tree to see where they were --strong evidence that they were driven from the tent by an attacker and not a fireball. If they had had a choice of where to flee, they would have headed toward the larger river, main path and their storage cache by the abandoned campsite.
Some of the escapees tried to get back to the tent and some stayed with the fire. Those who stayed with the fire were burned because that is what happens when the fire is too small and the weather too cold.
The clothing was not taken off of dead bodies, it was ordered to be given to the subgroup that the attacker was most interested in dealing with. People just assume the clothing of some of the victims was removed by their comrades after they died. In a hostage scenario the possibilities include clothing being ordered to be removed.
Because Zolotaryov was wearing Lyuda's hat and because his injuries would have left him alive for minutes or hours, it is logical to imagine that the assailant injured Zolotaryov first. Lyuda then, seeing him injured took compassion on him and gave him her hat. This likely took place in "the den" where Lyuda would have been out of the wind and could have survived without a hat.
The assailant then attacked Lyuda, perhaps it was because she showed compassion for Zolotaryov. Her injuries are consistent with someone acting out of anger and not as part of a fistfight.
The assailant then left the group after seeing that all of them were dead.
Doing such a thing was crazy stupid illogical and irrational but most crimes of passion are.
Everyone wants to treat the fireball events seen around the time of the Dyatlov tragedy as special. Sorry, that sort of thing is not special at all. Go spend a couple winters up there and you'll see. I have. And I am not impressed at all by the stories. They are as common as hurricanes in Florida. Sure, some are bigger than others and some seasons have few and others a lot. But what was seen was not unique.
Frank Black 25-10-2016 19:27 (GMT)
Best web site I've seen so far with very comprehensive injury information. I don't believe in a Yeti, UFO or any of that paranormal crap. There is only one kind of animal that can inflict that kind of damage to those young people- MAN. Military security, regular Army whatever but I believe it was other humans. I know that it might take some of the "lunatic fringe" mystery out of it but really a Yeti, be serious. Look at the autopsy data, some of those kids had the crap beaten out of them. You have to look at this logically plus 9 intelligent educated young people lost there lives possibly because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Robs 31-10-2016 12:11 (GMT)
How many people had BL actually killed leaving these exact injuries ? I suspect none but I'm not an expert?
Robs 26-11-2016 16:58 (GMT)
The bodies weren't found for weeks. Footprints couldhave easily been made or covered without any hassle including the hijackers foot prints (if that's what happened) the BL theory is just too far fetched for me, to make them Leave the tent in such a panic, apparently follow them and kill them at different locations doesn't seem right
Robs 28-11-2016 18:09 (GMT)
That is a possibility Mick, certainly i think that the group were hijacked by persons unknown
Mick 28-11-2016 17:44 (GMT)
Earlier, the group had had an argument with a drunk man who claimed they'd stolen his wallet, so perhaps when he'd sobered up he got his friends to follow the hikers, and clubbed them in their tent?
Teddy 30-11-2016 18:09 (GMT)
Another thing - what caused my trauma is high velocity impact - I was mounted in the back of a truck, much like this http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Krivonischenko-camera-film6-05.jpg the truck going down a mountain and the brakes failed. The truck lost control and we smashed into a rock with 70 km/h. So I tell you - you can not break your ribs by falling down a snow slope or somebody hitting you with a heavy bat. This is what is puzzling me, even if there were people pointing guns at them, how did they manage to inflict such a horrific injuries? A butt of a rifle can cause and most probably did cause Slobodin's skull fracture http://dyatlovpass.com/death#Slobodin but not Dubinina's broken ribs. Zolotaryov had similar rib fractures http://dyatlovpass.com/death#Zolotaryov
Teddy 30-11-2016 17:52 (GMT)
Dubinina had 10 broken ribs on both sides. Please refer to http://dyatlovpass.com/death#Dubinina I had similar injury - flail chest with lung contusion http://distal-humerus.com/resources/320/gallery/2012-07-24-X-Ray-chest.jpg They drained my right lung for 10 days - it was a pulp. My prognosis was dim.
Dubinina had twice as much broken ribs but she didn't drown in her own blood because a broken rib pierced her heart.
The cause of death is stated as hemorrhage into right atrium of the heart, multiple fractured ribs and internal bleeding
More interesting is that there were 100 g of coagulated blood in her stomach which means she swallowed after her tongue was ripped out.
Photos of Lyudmila from the morgue clearly show that there is no damage to the mouth, nose, ears or other soft tissues. If the body was devoured by scavengers, insects or even fish in the water these would be the first parts of the body that would show signs of damage.
Robs 04-12-2016 20:22 (GMT)
My theory is that hijackers forced them to leave tent with no shoes and little clothing knowing that they would soon die (and attacked them later). The tracks disappeared just like the tracks from the 9'when they setup camp
ken 29-01-2017 15:58 (GMT)
Violent death refers to death resulting from a sharp blow, stabbing, explosion, gunfire, or the like. The death is accelerated by human intervention. It is the opposite of natural death which occurs due to natural reasons.
It says human intervention,meaning that the death of the victims was caused by another humans.
Finally....A person on this site besides the 3 Musketeers & their BL blither which never ceases. Page after page after pitiful bs page.......If you disagree, you're bullied & ignored. Nothing else is discussed except the BL. Oh, that murdering BL.......9 people in ....
how many different injuries??? The BL seems to like hands, especially fingers, since almost all of them have combat/fight defensive injuries, skinned knuckles....... Seems to like breaking both sets of ribs and skulls too.....Severing a tongue....Blunt force trauma on a skull, case files state this......Removing 2 sets of eyeballs......caving a chest cavity in.
Igor has many many abrasions and defensive wounds as well even tho he died from hypothermia, many hand abrasions...... Most of them have dried blood around their mouths, their noses, as in fight wounds, again......It states in the case files that it's very rare for hypothermia victims to look like these hikers. Meaning, most hypothermia victims do not have the shit kicked, punched, kneed, hit violently with a baton, blunt force trauma to a skull and almost all sets of 9 hands with obvious combat/defensive wounds.
That BL sure was busy stalking that nite...........
There used to be a lot of other posters discussing the obvious & file stated documents that equal all 9 hikers being murdered by other people. This is a given now. Yet, this site is now only used for this BL bullsh!t by 3 delusional posters, one being an obsessed, desperate man to be known for making up "the big BL theory", and in his own words, he thinks we have "theory envy" or some such bull, since almost all the posters that have been here disagreed with Nigel & have left long ago.
Of course the BL man has been here since inception, blowing his fancied horn as if he's achieved some wonderful award for thinking up such a thing as BL killing nine people at one get go.
It says BLs disappear quickly too musketeers. A lot of them are the size of a grapefruit..... they leave electric shocks on people often....lightning marks.....burns that you can tell come from some sort of lightning...
And did I say that I read that it's "rare" or almost impossible to have BL without some sort of storm?? They have hundreds of alleged victims/survivors that have posted about their own stories of a BL. None of them match even close to the hikers. Most survived.
I feel your laid back, moronic BL mumbo jumbo is a disgrace to these 9 that were so brutally murdered, died in screaming terror and agony, the last 4 tortured for hours and hours....
You should be ashamed of yourselves for saying it's "unintelligent" to believe what the files are depicting clearly & what the deceased pics unmistakenly show. The death pics are horrific, just horrific of their terror.........
The nine hikers deserve to have their truth be stated so they didn't all die in vain without anyone knowing what really happened.
I feel pity for your delusion and for Nigel's false bravado over a really really senseless & proven ludicrous BL pipe dream.
It is clear to see, except for the delusional, and from reading all nine's autopsies & what was written in their case files and in the decades since, in this year of 2017, yes, it's very evident and clearly stated in the files that all nine were attacked & murdered by "people" in "hand to hand combat/fighting".
If you do not support this BL ridiculous sh!t, I can't call it a theory any longer after I did some research on what it is & what today's scientists know and think about it. Seems like it disappears pretty quickly, to have it happen without a thunderstorm/rainstorm is indeed considered "rare" & has different injuries listed by the "many" people that claim to have been hit by BL and survived.
If there had "really" been 9 people, all hit by BL, it is rare & highly unlikely that all 9 would have been killed by it. There would have been survivors.
I have since found MANY photos of the 9 hikers death pictures that I have never seen before, nor are all of them listed on this site. It has horrified me as about all have mouths open wide, as if in screaming in terror, and anything BUT CALM as the jackass Nigel has stated. Calm? Are you really that delusional you will say such a thing just to support your BL blah blah. To say that is disrespectful to the hikers & the agony that was suffered. Their lives taken just.like.that.
I also find it disrespectful that you would post that Zina hardly had any injuries. "Scratches" you called them. She had abrasions, not scratches, almost all over her entire face. Her hands. Her knuckles were skinned to the bone......She isn't even recognizable. A person hit the f*ck out of her with something like a baton. To stop her from getting to the tent. She was doing pretty good until her back got whacked as hard as a strong man could. Fact. Evidence to back this up.
There are other sites where intelligent folks can discuss rationally and seriously the way these young innocent peoples' lives were taken. .... God knows. He saw. He wept. He will serve
His justice one day. The 9 deserve justice and truth and they're not getting that here.
@LC - high energy radiation = X rays and/or gamma rays... Ligtning bolts also produce ball lightning....
I've previously conjectured that they could have been unlucky with a positive polarity lightning bolt. But it doesn't really explain leaving the tent AND being kept away. So given SZ's photos i've opted for BL start and finish.
If you've read the thread you'll know i have a degree in Physics btw.
I have a son with a Masters in physics, well on his way to a PHD at ASU - GO SUNDEVILS ! :-) - I argue lots of stuff with him. BTW, he doesn't buy into BL DPI
I'm happy for you..... But how does that equate to evidence BL killed 9 hikers, or you having the authority over opinions? Does this mean I have to kiss your ass, or do you still put your pants on the same way I do? Please tell me your like the dear leader of NK and do not go #2.
I've previously conjectured that they could have been unlucky with a positive polarity lightning bolt. But it doesn't really explain leaving the tent AND being kept away. So given SZ's photos i've opted for BL start and finish.
If you've read the thread you'll know i have a degree in Physics btw.
Good thing they didn't get hit by lightning eh Nigel.
Well there ya go.... Radioactive Iodine. The thyroid gland is next.
We know the definition of 'violent'.... You asshat
From what I'm seeing, its all about exposure/poisoning of methanol and a type of irrradiation, OR irradiated methanol. There has been no such mention of 'microwave' irrradiation. Im almost certain its in reference to the type found on the articles of clothing from the ravine 4. Was it gama? Ill get to it shortly
re: KMM 09-13-2017 20:07 (GMT)
the intelligent ask WHY DID THE MANSI NAME THE TWO MOUNTAINS --- DEAD MOUNTAIN --- and --- DON'T GO THERE ---
That has been explained in almost all websites I've
read, maybe you should try reading some.
---- why don't you quote a few instead of spouting
off about stuff you haven't read --- all the accounts
I've read say that they Mansi named the
mountains such because of a hunting party which was
killed by the gods -- who looked like balls of light -- how much clearer do you need it ? If they had the word "explosion" or "explodes" in their lexicon they probably would have used that word too.
.................................................
LC answered you with a link
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kholat_Syakhl
Here is another:
http://survincity.com/2012/08/mystery-death-of-dyatlov/
History began Jan. 23, 1959, when five students of the Ural Polytechnic Institute, three engineers — graduates of the same university — and the instructor campings reached the 22-day ski trip length of three kilometers of the highest grade. During a trek was planned and climb Mount Otorten (translation — "Do not go there" or "mountain, where the wind blows"
You made the statement, why didn't you post links to
support it? Maybe something that doesn't contain the
words "legend" "folklore" "yeti", you know something intelligent folk will understand.
Violent death refers to death resulting from a sharp blow, stabbing, explosion, gunfire, or the like. The death is accelerated by human intervention. It is the opposite of natural death which occurs due to natural reasons.
It says human intervention,meaning that the death of the victims was caused by another humans.
-- could you provide some links to the above (is it a quote? or a supposition ?)
From what I understand, methanol (form of alcohol) can be irradiated, and it use in Russian oil fields? at the time was extensive. The point is...... Methanol poisoning>>>> blood boil (think Bends)>>> enlarged aorta. There is another long section regarding the radiation found on the clothing with interviews, interrogation quotes and all all the facts including the actual reports that I haven't gotten to yet.
Aortas 3 Times the size they should be..... Fact
quoting your post -- "... some of these guys seem like class clowns some athletes...Dyatlov I see weight trained and is the Leader of this bunch ... "
--- NONE OF THESE GUYS/GIRLS WERE CLASS CLOWNS ! they were undergraduate and graduate students at Ural Polytechnic Institute -- which is like the MIT or Stanford U of the Soviet Nation. (though much smaller and not nearly as well funded) They were (highly valuable) students in engineering and the sciences; some already working in their field while they studied.
-- as for all the talk of love and kissing -- what else do 20'something college students talk about when they are relaxing?
-- (from the "hikers" drop down in this site) --
as for:
Igor Alekseievich Dyatlov
Born on Jan. 13, 1936, Russian Federation
He was the leader of the ill-fated hiking group; the whole incident is named after him. He was a student of the 5th Faculty of Radio Engineering at UPI university. A talented engineer, he designed and assembled a radio during his 2nd year that was used during hikes in 1956 in the Sayan Mountains. He also designed a small stove that he used after 1958 by Dyatlov himself and that he had brought with him on this trip. People who knew Igor described him as a thoughtful man who never rushed with his decisions. He courted Zina Kolmogorova who also took part in the hike. Igor Dyatlov was one of the most experienced athletes in the group.
He was 23 years old when he died.
-- please note: Igor was chosen for the group leader because he had led groups in that area before -- more than one time. This was a school club.
-- as for Zina'a comment in your post ( "diary entry: "Igor all evening was rude, I didn't recognize him. I had to sleep on the wood near the stove."
It says human intervention,meaning that the death of the victims was caused by another humans.
Because i didn't understand how methanol could irradiate i did google the above.
And i still don't understand...
FYI, microwave irradiation is NOT the only form of irradiation. I SUGGEST YOU GO EDUCATE YOURSELF.... PERHAPS GOOGLE METHANOL IRRADIATION.
THE WORD 'MICROWAVE' WAS NEVER STATED IN MY POST, and if you don't think their aorta being TRIPLE THE SIZE it should be.... YOUR A BONIFIDE IDIOT
the intelligent ask WHY DID THE MANSI NAME THE TWO MOUNTAINS --- DEAD MOUNTAIN --- and --- DON'T GO THERE ---
That has been explained in almost all websites I've read, maybe you should try reading some.
---- why don't you quote a few instead of spouting off about stuff you haven't read --- all the accounts I've read say that they Mansi named the mountains such because of a hunting party which was killed by the gods -- who looked like balls of light -- how much clearer do you need it ? If they had the word "explosion" or "explodes" in their lexicon they probably would have used that word too.
containing several references to the word "violent"
"Death is violent - an accident. SUD.MED.EXPERT OF THE REGIONAL BUREAU OF SUDMEDEKSPERTIZY - signature / REVIVAL / COURT.MED.EXPERT OF THE CITY OF NORTH-URALSK - signature / LAPTEV / "
and -- "Bodily injuries of the soft tissues of the head region and "bath skin" of the limbs are posthumous changes in the body of Thibault Brignol, which was recently found in the water.
The death of Thibault Brignoles is violent."
and -- "The death of Zolotarev is violent."
and -- "The body injuries found on the body of Kolevatov are in the head area - defects in soft tissues, as well as "bath" skin, are posthumous changes in a corpse that was recently found before it was found in the water.
Kolevatov's death is violent."
from your quote, please note:
--- you all misconstrue the word "violent" to mean an attack (you watch too much television and movies) -- but as stated in your post above their meaning is clear "violent" here means broken bones and internal injuries -- as they then say (elsewhere) like an "auto accident"
--- special note to all: this "auto accident" in no way implies that someone drove a car over the nine hikers -- and none of you are claiming this -- yet you all construe "violent" as if it meant an attack -- it does not -- if a TREE fell on you and killed you -- that would also be "violent" -- but no one would suggest that the tree "attacked" you.
i'd add expansion due to freezing to the list.
Where's this bombshell thingy?
I saw it again later & it had found its way inside one of the cars & was banging the drivers' skull against the window....
Then it disappeared in a poof.
https://image.ibb.co/dp6COk/255px_aorta_scheme.jpg .
The arch of the aorta with its convexity is facing upward. From the bulge go three large vessels: the brachiocephalic trunk, the left common carotid artery and the left subclavian artery.
The brachiocephalic trunk at the level of the right sternoclavicular joint is divided into two branches: the right common carotid artery and the right subclavian artery. Heading from the front to the bottom, the aortic arch at the level III of the thoracic vertebra passes into the descending part of the aorta.
Most recently, based on thousands of studies, doctors made an interesting conclusion that the age of a person can be determined from the width of the aorta!
The aorta in humans is expanded twice - initially to 20-22 years, for the second time after 40 years.
Analysis of the metric data of men of different ages was carried out after studies of the aorta without pronounced atherosclerotic deformation and putrefactive changes. As a result of this analysis, forensic experts noticed an amazing feature - the width of the aorta varies with age.
https://image.ibb.co/dc1COk/n9emv1.png .
https://image.ibb.co/gyNiw5/image01467.jpg .
As we can see, the widest part of the aortic arch in part "D" in healthy people under the age of 25 years should not exceed 5 cm.
Publication. "Actual issues of forensic medicine and expert practice, Barnaul-Novosibirsk 2011. 17 »
(SME EM Skaryukin, head of the Elizovsky Interdistrict Office)
http://journal.forens-lit.ru/node/453
Perhaps, about this feature of the aorta Vozrozhdenniy B.A. in 1959 did not yet know, but the size of the aorta in the dead were strange:
The width of the aortic arch above the valves:
Kolevatov Alexander 7 cm
Thibo-Brignol Nicholas - 8.5 cm
Igor Dyatlov - 8 cm of
Kolmogorova Zina - 8 cm
Doroshenko Yuri - 8,5 cm
It turns out that in 5 children, the Vozrozhdenniy recorded that the width of the aortic arch was increased for some reason. Such dimensions of the width of the aortic arch correspond to the size of the organ of a sick person or person aged over 70 years. But all the guys were healthy and athletic people!
As a result, in a short period of time, the width of the aortic arch could increase in healthy athletes?
The rapid expansion of the aortic arch (an aortic arch aneurysm) was probably due to inhalation pulmonary edema, sudden pressure spikes and blood clotting after receiving poisoning and a large dose of irradiation (blood, as it were, boils in the veins) and venous stasis.
Except that the group split not once, but twice.... I do however like the word "seem" as its slightly less factual.
they seem to act as a cooperating group who are forced to leave the tent and crucially forced to stay away for some time. The latter is one of the key points for the BL theory and imo defeats an internal violence scenario for the simple reason that there would have been a rapid fight with fatalities and a surviving group and they would have returned to the tent for their stuff asap"
Key points for the BL theory eh? There is ZERO evidence they were 'forced' to stay away from the tent. In fact, three of them WERE apparently returning to the tent when they perished. You also have absolutely no idea at what point in time or how quickly said return attempt/attempts happened. Quite the imagination for inventing facts.
see my post - 04-09-2017 09:10 (GMT)
These are claimed to be from the DP in 2012.
http://www.viafanzine.jor.br/002imag/03_13/dyatlov4_objeto.jpg .
http://www.viafanzine.jor.br/002imag/03_13/dyatlov4_objeto2.jpg .
@Lyndasez - hi, good to hear what Lynda says. A problem with the internal strife theory is that Yudin didn't flag it and he was there. SZ was well accepted etc etc. Also all of the photos and their newspaper demonstrate a very friendly group. It's possible of course for tensions to suddenly surface but i don't see it in their actions, they seem to act as a cooperating group who are forced to leave the tent and crucially forced to stay away for some time. The latter is one of the key points for the BL theory and imo defeats an internal violence scenario for the simple reason that there would have been a rapid fight with fatalities and a surviving group and they would have returned to the tent for their stuff asap. But all of the events seem to show a timeline lasting say 2 hours. It would have taken time to get down the hill, build a fire, the 2 yuris were turned after lividity had frozen in which takes time. so it seems reasonable for say a couple of hours away from the tent. So what was keeping them away for so long standing in their socks? What was that compelling force?
Imo the key question isn't what made them leave the tent but what kept them away from all their gear with which they could easily survive long term. The labaz was well stocked with food all they needed was that gear, but they didn't go back to the tent for it instead built a fire and a den. Finally when three of them did try they all expired within 330m.
Something kept them away and frustrated their return.
Acts of forensic medical examination of the corpses of the last four were signed only by prosecutor-criminalist Ivanov and forensic expert Vozrozhdenniy.
Signatures under the act of court. Med. Studies of the corpses of Ivanov and the forensic expert of the Vozrozhdenniy
The forensic expert Vozrozhdenniy on the document did not put his seal, the signature of the third person - criminalist expert Churkina is absent. Acts of the last four are invalid.
https://image.ibb.co/dFTBya/sme.jpg .
What happened, why the Rebellion could not execute the order from above and write to all the dead the cause of death "freezing" - remains a mystery, it is also unknown what kind of injuries the guys actually had. Vozrozhdenniy did not attach to the media report (forensic medical research) photographs from the mortuary corpses of Alexander Kolevatov and Thibault Nikolai.
Along with this, the media reports contain some details about the absence of eyes and tongue from corpses, which gave the tragedy a bit of mysticism. Extricated for some reason in all the stories, together with the artificially created and widespread myth of the mountain of the dead, these "details" fuel an interest in the tragedy and make people feel fear from an unknown "spontaneous force".
(Bat in hand) oh your boy Ivanov is the one covering shit up alright.
Something along those lines is exactly what may have happened in my opinion. Glad I'm not the only one that sees the tension and Igor's ability to go postal. That boy aint right!!!
In this Resolution, Ivanov writes:
"In February 1959, a group of hikers from the Ural Polytechnic Institute consisting of 9 people died in the height area marked" 1079 "in the Northern Urals , the corpses of five hikers and part of the group's equipment were found by the search, the troupes of the remaining participants were not found.
In connection with the non-discovery of other participants in the hike, it is not possible to establish finally the cause of the death of hikers and the perpetrators of this, and the meteorological conditions of the area of ??death do not allow to carry out prospecting works on a scale that would allow finding other participants in the hike. "
Ivanov writes that a group of 9 people died , but the corpses of 4 members of the group had not been found by that time!"
Ivanov.... What a genius! Are you related Nigel?
Seen everything from great balls of fire, aliens, rocket ships and yetis...to blame.
If anyone has come across a psychological profile of this crew, I'd like to see it.
From reading the documents on this site: https://sites.google.com/site/hibinaud/home/akt-issledovania-trupa-datlova-igora and others.
I'm leaning towards this scenario. In their journals the ladies made mention of arguing between the guys, before and during the trek. One of them is over which 2 has to sleep nearest the stove inside the tent, since it's too hot it's singed clothes, hair and socks.. The ladies had also made mention of the "red-bearded" guy at the cottage they stayed, that he's not as cerebral as they but he fascinating....and they stated most of the conversation is about love, kissing so forth.
Now, some of these guys seem like class clowns some athletes...Dyatlov I see weight trained and is the Leader of this bunch...And for the sake of argument let's say Igors a bit tightly wound...Nerves are running rampant on this day-night about their 'leader,' they joke and taunt about being a bit off course, his stove is roasting them, and they make Igor twitch. Dyatlov is steamed and he physically threatened or ousted the 2, (their coats and boots near Igor and the entry) sent them out where they build a fire till he cools off.
Zina took up for the guys...it's inhuman to make them suffer...she got served a foot plant in the side. She threatened to leave and he blocked passageway and went postal.
(Her diary entry: "Igor all evening was rude, I didn't recognize him. I had to sleep on the wood near the stove."
Slice n dice it...
That has been explained in almost all websites I've read, maybe you should try reading some.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Nf9bmLrOG8
@KMM - "absence of evidence is not evidence of BL "
Correct but evidence of BL is evidence of BL.
I have yet to see any
...................................................
Surprisingly, one of the most extraordinary and astonishing versions came from none other than Lev Ivanov himself. In 1990, the retired Prosecutor published an article, “The Enigma of the Fireballs”, where he admitted that in spring of 1959, under
“When E. P. Maslennikov and I examined the scene in May, we found that some young pine trees at the edge of the forest had burn marks, but those marks did not have a concentric form or some other pattern. There was no epicenter. This once again confirmed that heated beams of a strong, but completely unknown, at least to us, energy, were directing their firepower toward specific objects (in this case, people), acting selectively.”
It is worth noting that later on, Kirilenko professed a lively interest in the UFO’s, and received memos about sightings of unidentified objects from the Chairman of the KGB, Andropov.
You've run everybody off with your senseless babble about ball lightning.
I'm sure you laugh your f*cking ass off at a lot of stupid shit.
May a BL light your way home tonite asshat.
Man-card denied.... I'm not holding your purse.
That's LC's job!
Correct but evidence of BL is evidence of BL.
"I think his view was a UFO that TARGETED the hikers. "
From Ivanov :-
I questioned many eyewitnesses who saw this UFO in the sub-polar Urals. By the way, I do not mean that these UFOs are connected with aliens. A UFO is an unidentified flying object, and that’s it. A lot of data speaks of the fact that [the UFOs] can be bursts of energy not understood by modern science, but which affect life and the environment.
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (p. 138). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition. "
That's the kinda BL i'm talking about!
@KMM... Look it over and see what you think. I won't dare post it all here because Nigel would likely shit a Volvo.... Perhaps have an aneurysm, or two. He would be caught on camera running through walmart wearing a pink tutu (ruffles), flipflops, a Cheeto stained wife-beater and a helmet screaming 'Ivanov is my daddy!'' 8^/ we're talking full blown meltdown of BL proportions.
Never once in all the sites I read did any of the BL injuries that happened to people even remotely was similar to the hikers. There were also "survivors" when the BL incidents occurred. In no way does it show that BL could have been responsible for 9 people's deaths & injuries.
The most rare and mysterious form of lightning is ball lightning. [25] A mix of fire and electricity concentrated in a fireball with a diameter of 10-30 cm, ball lightning usually appears suddenly, even in indoor conditions, during a thunderstorm. It moves quickly for several meters, can change direction, and ultimately disappears sometimes soundlessly and other times with a pop or larger explosive sound. It has a life span of several seconds, and its color is quite variable but most commonly described as white, yellow, or orange.
Ball lightning appears as glowing orbs that seem to occur during thunderstorms, usually following a lightning strike. These floating fireballs shine as brightly as a 100-watt lightbulb; can be white, yellow, orange, red or blue in color and are typically about the size of a small grapefruit, although sightings suggest they can range in size from golf ball to beach ball.
Emanating from the fireball are little tendrils that seem to jerk the ball around as if it was under the power of a spastic puppeteer. They move slowly and erratically and are followed by smoke trails that form spirals around them. And after a moment, they disappear.
But of course, in your theory, the BL forced them out of the tent, made them all walk down a snowy slope without their shoes, coats, gloves......with 2 of them in their underwear & barefoot. Let's see....then the BL beat them up, crushed Rustem's skull on both sides, crushed Luda's ribs on both sides, crushed AK's ribs on one side & removed his eyeballs, removed Luda's tongue & eyeballs, crushed Yuri's chest, snapped one of their necks so it was deformed, slammed Zina across the back like a baton/rifle & continued its compelling force til all was dead.
You are an idiot N.
@LC - No, God did not kill the hikers. People did.
'BL IS NOT THE ONLY POSSIBLE EXPLANATION AS TO WHAT HAPPENED AND ALL THEORIES SHALL BE CONSIDERED".
N.B. Ivanov did that before opting for the BL theory....
IDT Ivanov opted for BL, I think his view was a UFO that TARGETED the hikers.
@Sandy - "no thunderstorm", groan, you'd have to read the thread to understand your ignorance here, but my guess is you'll just stay ignorant.
N.B. Ivanov did that before opting for the BL theory....
@nigel... Arguments from ignorance[edit]
(Draws a conclusion based on lack of knowledge or evidence without accounting for all possibilities)
"I take the view that this lack (of enemy subversive activity in the west coast) is the most ominous sign in our whole situation. It convinces me more than perhaps any other factor that the sabotage we are to get, the Fifth Column activities are to get, are timed just like Pearl Harbor ... I believe we are just being lulled into a false sense of security." – Earl Warren, then California's Attorney General (before a congressional hearing in San Francisco on 21 February 1942).
This example clearly states what appeal to ignorance is, although we have proved that the moon is not made of spare ribs, we have not proved that its core cannot be filled with them; therefore, the moon’s core is filled with spare ribs.[4]
Say it.... Type these words in your next reply. Read carefully and repeat after me....
'BL IS NOT THE ONLY POSSIBLE EXPLANATION AS TO WHAT HAPPENED AND ALL THEORIES SHALL BE CONSIDERED"
SAY IT!!!!!! MAN UP
The University did this all the time as I have read... Besides, SZ being attached to the group in no way shape or form proves BL killed them. AND, 'if' he were kgb his mission could have been one of a thousand things such as observing the students etc as possible defectors..... Like THE UNIVERSITY WAS PARANOID OF!!
"SZ having a camera Yudin had never seen before."
AGAIN I WILL QUOTE YUDIN HIMSELF!!!!
"The money they bought was bought: food and various things and equipment needed in the trek, like a first aid kit, notebooks, pencils, materials for warming tents, etc., I DO NOT REMEMBER EVERYTHING. Backpacks, skis, boots, tent, ice ax and other equipment were received at the Institute.
https://sites.google.com/site/hibinaud/home/dopros-svidetela-udina-u-e
SZ haz a camera..... SO THE FRICK WHAT!! YOU HAVE ZERO PROOF THE CAMERA OR HIM HAVING IT WAS IN ANY WAY SPECIAL.
"Photos of lights that are attributed to SZ."
AGAIN... YOU INVENT WHAT YOU SEE LIKE SEEING MICKY MOUSE IN THE CLOUDS... AND.... YOU EXPECT OTHER THEORIES TO EXPLAIN OR OTHERWISE ADHERE? TO THIS NONSENSE
"A planned route that that they didn't follow."
AND???? CONDITIONS CHANGE, CIRCUMSTANCES CHANGE, PEOPLE CHANGE THE MINDS, IGOR WAS A RETARD, ACCIDENTS HAPPEN!!!!! THIS MEANS NOTHING!!!
"Deaths stated by the pathologist to be like from a bomb shockwave."
LIKE....LIKE....LIKE!!...AS I STATED BEFORE... IF YOU THINK ONLY A BOMB CAN BREAK RIBS OR CRACK A SKULL, YOU LIVE A VERY SHELTERED LIFE. IT WAS ALSO STATED "FORCE OF LIKE A CAR ACCIDENT"... WHERE IS THE GD CAR!?!?!?!
"Reliable witnesses reporting lights in the sky and explosions."
CAN YOU NOT HAVE REPORTS OF THIS ANYWHERE ON THE PLANET YEAR ROUND?!?! IT PROVES NOTHING!!
"And then you have all the "curiosities" - condition of the snow, hotspot, burnt trees, tanned skin, burns, three people all expire close to each other ascending the mountain."
Oh for frick sakes.... AGAIN... THERE IS ZERO EVIDENCE OF BURNT TREES AND A HOTSPOT!
ALL THREE BORK BORK..... AND?!?!?
There are 400 explanations to any given example..... THE SUN DID NOT RISE TODAY BECAUSE OF BL.
I know exactly what took the lives of these 9 people in 1959.... GOD!!!! PROVE ME WRONG!!!
"Murder theory.... Lets see here jackwagon, the murder theory DOES IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM NEED TO INCLUDE, EXPLAIN, OR OTHERWISE INCORPORATE YOUR THREE HEADS BULLSHIT, BURNED TREES, HOT SPOTS, MICROWAVES, COLLAPSED DEN, OR ANY OTHER HORSESHIT YOU INVENTED OR INDOCTRINATED AS GOSPEL TO FIT YOUR AGENDA. "
All very true, but it would be nice to have an explanation for that stuff (like the BL theory does). However what the murder theory DOES have to explain is the fire and the rav4 being killed by superhuman force. How many times has some idiot come on this site and explained that they foolishly lit a fire 1500m away from where the bad men had ejected them from the tent, jeez and with a WW2 veteran onboard...
"Any idiot can invent a story and create details to construct an elaborate story... Ever watch TV? "
Well you and your barmy army can't....
And what facts have i made up? Facts like :-
SZ attached to the group even though he had nothing to do with them.
SZ having a camera Yudin had never seen before.
Photos of lights that are attributed to SZ.
A planned route that that they didn't follow.
Deaths stated by the pathologist to be like from a bomb shockwave.
Reliable witnesses reporting lights in the sky and explosions.
And then you have all the "curiosities" - condition of the snow, hotspot, burnt trees, tanned skin, burns, three people all expire close to each other ascending the mountain.
All of those FACTS can be explained by a microwave ball lightning theory as postulated by some of our finest physicists whose intelligence is better yours or mine.
Time to know your place brainchild.
But yet..... You ARE! Never do you state 'may have been', 'may be', 'could have', 'perhaps' etc. If your keys are a clickin.... Your making up facts as you go along. Whats astonishing to me is the FACT that you think ALL NON BL THEORIES AND DETAILS MUST BE COMPARED TO AND/OR ALIGN WITH THE LIES YOU HAVE INVENTED. Example, A non BL theory does NOT need to explain or incorporate into detail why YOUR crazy ass fantasy shit is/isn't. THAT'S YOUR DOINGS AND YOUR FICTIONAL RATIONALIZATIONS.
Murder theory.... Lets see here jackwagon, the murder theory DOES IN NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM NEED TO INCLUDE, EXPLAIN, OR OTHERWISE INCORPORATE YOUR THREE HEADS BULLSHIT, BURNED TREES, HOT SPOTS, MICROWAVES, COLLAPSED DEN, OR ANY OTHER HORSESHIT YOU INVENTED OR INDOCTRINATED AS GOSPEL TO FIT YOUR AGENDA.
"Unlike your pathetic efforts so far, the BL theory has the uncanny knack of fitting/eplaining ALL the facts. Any idiot can construct a theory that partially explains the story leaving out the bits that don't fit, but so far afaik the only story to explain everything is BL."
Again... Brainchild, pay attention. You made up the stupid facts.... WE do not have to base other theories around them. FACT The BL explains NOTHING!.... You know why??? BECAUSE ITS ALL BEEN BUILT ON YOUR FICTIONAL LIES. FYI.... Any idiot can invent a story and create details to construct an elaborate story... Ever watch TV?
Unreal... Folks.. this guy has ZERO respect for anyone having a differing opinion and displays utter distain and contempt for anyone whom does not tow the BL line and suck his toes. He thinks YOUR theory must explain HIS elaborate fantastical made-up crap. Wow
I'm not stating them as fact, i'm stating them as part of the BL theory i'm developing (no pun) on this site.
This theory has it that SZ was KGB, equipped with a secret camera he hid from the others to photograph lights in the sky (probably that had been previously reported by military aircrew and known from mansi legend). So it follows that the camera would be state of the art for that period and SZ would be trained to use it. Hence the difference in quality between SZ's shots and YK and RS's efforts. That this photography was his mission explains the detour.
Unlike your pathetic efforts so far, the BL theory has the uncanny knack of fitting/eplaining ALL the facts. Any idiot can construct a theory that partially explains the story leaving out the bits that don't fit, but so far afaik the only story to explain everything is BL..
Rediculous how you state these wild claims as if they were fact. Where did you come up with this secret kgb super special camera crap?
FYI.... Gulags name changed and the release of non violent offenders doesn't mean squat. Its well known prisoners have escaped and found refuge or hid out in the backwoods of the urals. These people can and have been in the wild for decades, so even a name change in early 50s is moot. Talk to me about gulags, by grandmother inlaw was in one during ww2 assembling rockets and subsidizing a lack of diet by eating glycerin. Her brother lost a hand for stealing bread.
As said MANY TIMES now, the BL theory has several versions and the simplest is that BL scares them away from the tent and the rest is just bad luck, falling from trees, crushed by snow. Although i would favour a BL theory that kills the rav4 with an explosion.
Also as said before if it was a military accident/cockup then there's ABSOLUTELY NO NEED for that expensive investigation.
And it's hard to explain why SZ needed a secret camera apparently setup for night photography. Even why he was there at all. Couldn't be to stop a possible defection, one against several others with knives/axes. He was there to photograph something, that's why they made an uncomfortable detour depriving themselves of a night in the forest with a warm stove.
We all know 5 of them froze to death and their injuries were not the cause if death. When you don't read "cause if death is violent", that does NOT mean there were no injuries with a possible cause of hand/hand combat. It just means said injuries didn't cause the heart to stop.
Please note... The methanol theory does not explain the injuries of the tent3 or cedar2. I am exploring any and all theories simultaneously.
Really dude? Im finding this in NON rav4 files.
"Taking into account the above bodily injuries, Slobodin could move and crawl in the first hours from the moment of their infliction.
The death of Slobodin is violent - an accident."
Well how do the rav4 get their injuries then?
Repeating my post below because you obviously haven't read it.
Nigel Evans 09-09-2017 14:23 (GMT)
From the official files - "Decision on the termination." - This seems to be the formal closing statement of the DPI investigation. It is the official result of circa 30 men (supplied by helicopters at huge cost) investigating for three months.
"and, as it was established in the subsequent forensic expertise, the leeward side of the tent where the hikers were headlong , was cut from the inside in two places, in areas that provide a free exit of a person through these sections."
"Neither traces of the struggle nor the presence of other people were found in the tent or near it."
"Forensic medical examination found that Dyatlov, Doroshenko, Krivonischenko and Kolmogorov died from the action of low temperature (frozen), none of them had physical injuries, not counting minor scratches and abrasions. Slobodin had a crack in the skull 6 cm long, which had spread to 0.1 cm, but Slobodin died from cooling."
"The investigation did not establish the presence on February 1 or 2, 1959 in the area of ??the "1079" height of other people, except for the group of hikers Dyatlov. It is also established that the population of Mansi, living in 80-100 km from this place, is Russian friendly, presents hikers, lodges, helps them, etc. The place where the group died, in winter time it is considered Mansi unsuitable for hunting and reindeer breeding."
"Given the absence of external injuries and signs of struggle on all corpses, the presence of all the values ??of the group, and also taking into account the conclusion of forensic medical examination of the causes of death of hikers, it should be considered that the reason for the death of hikers was the spontaneous force that hikers were unable to overcome ."
I dont think so... This theory involves no such explosion that I have come across as of yet. The explosion is only needed in a BL scenario Nigel.... There isn't any evidence if an explosion to begin with.
Nigel... You know as well as I do that each official report states something similar as follows.
"Death is violent - an accident. SUD.MED.EXPERT OF THE REGIONAL BUREAU OF SUDMEDEKSPERTIZY - signature / REVIVAL / COURT.MED.EXPERT OF THE CITY OF NORTH-URALSK - signature / LAPTEV / "
And another...
"Bodily injuries of the soft tissues of the head region and "bath skin" of the limbs are posthumous changes in the body of Thibault Brignol, which was recently found in the water.
The death of Thibault Brignoles is violent."
And.... Another.
"The death of Zolotarev is violent."
And another!!
"The body injuries found on the body of Kolevatov are in the head area - defects in soft tissues, as well as "bath" skin, are posthumous changes in a corpse that was recently found before it was found in the water.
Kolevatov's death is violent."
So... Your with the case files, but yet you either lie about the contents of the case files, or you do not read them. Which is it?
I'm with the official report, no signs of violence.
Cold, predation, previous weeks strenuous activity, maybe an internal row and a fight, but not one serious injury that is clearly of human cause.
@LC - "Unbelievable hypocrisy!!! ". Nonsense, your answer was in an earlier post?
@KMM - "After this time, not a single record and not a single photograph was found. " - i think YK's and RS's blobs were assumed to be erroneous. Could be correct of course. Assuming SZ's photos are genuine, it's probable that they were KGB property and the police/prosecutor never saw them.
@LC - Methanol, at last a half decent theory, an explosive vapour being released from perhaps a rocket launch. It gives you a reason for leaving the tent and a cause of an explosion. But you've got to explain the time lag between the tent and the explosion, afaik the 2yuris need to be dead for about an hour before turning for the lividity to be incorrect. The vat of alcohol is supposed to be to wash radioactive dust off. Russian submariners were apparently given a ration each week to wash with. Haven't come across the other chemicals being discussed before, could have been some embalming process perhaps, think this is common in the US today.
--- they closed in 1956 -- or at least the Wiki site on "gulag": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulag says the last administrator was: " Sergei Yegorovich Yegorov October 5, 1954 – April 4, 1956 " Of course there were other (un-named)systems until the 1980's. The map on the gulag page doesn't show any old gulag camps near where the 9 hikers were in the Urals. Of interest might be this Wiki on the Norilsk Uprising of 1953 -- non violent and no weapons : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norilsk_uprising
or this on the political relaxing in the 1950's : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khrushchev_Thaw this is a time when Khrushchev was closing down the old Stalin system of repression. So we are left with no gulag prisoners in 1959, and no motivation for any ex-prisoners to kill anyone. Soviets were happy with the way the government was opening up.
KMM... Join my board at sksfiles.com under the same name and I'll message you some material of interest. I don't feel like posting my email for all the trolls
Yeah, I got a couple throwaways I keep for that
Lots more information inbound when everyone gets done digesting. Let me know when.
I've got reading time left, don't know if anyone else here
"March 12, 1959
Secret order deputy. prosecutor of the Sverdlovsk region Yu.N. Achimin to investigate the involvement of Mansi in the death of the Dyatlov group
Secret order deputy. prosecutor of the Sverdlovsk region Yu.N. Achimin to investigate the involvement of Mansi in the death of the Dyatlov group
Deputy Prosecutor of the Sverdlovsk Region for Special Forces Yu.N. Achimin gives a secret task to the deputy head of the Ivdel police department of the Interior Ministry, Major Bizyayev, to investigate Mansi, who might have witnessed the incident at Mount Oorten.
On the basis of this instruction, the police detain several people and torture them in the cold, knocking out their testimony about what they could see or know about the incident, in fact, the police authorities intimidate them. But after a while, making sure that people do not know anything about the incident, they release them.
The guy.. https://image.ibb.co/derbWv/hex33.jpg .
The order document... https://image.ibb.co/gQ03Bv/0_a29fc_4d10d341_xxxl.jpg
"Kikoin AK went to the search site.
A group of climbers examined the area of ??the tent and the surrounding area for avalanche danger.
https://image.ibb.co/h5NYuF/lav2.jpg .
https://image.ibb.co/cEhYuF/lav4.jpg .
What conclusions were drawn by the Moscow specialists as a result of the conducted studies is not known"
"4 days members of the route-qualification commission of the All-Union hiker Section from Moscow K. Bardin and E. Shuleshko, along with Maslennikov E.P. conducted a thorough survey of the entire terrain heights of 1079 and 880, the valleys of the 4th tributary of Lozva and the shores bounding it, the pass from Lozva to Auspiyu, the valley of the river.
Maslennikov, E.P. explores the height of 1079 and the neighborhood.
https://image.ibb.co/iDUcoa/sneg1.jpg .
https://image.ibb.co/bttRgv/sneg1_1.jpg
This structure was under the feet of Maslennikov snow, which melted under the influence of chemical precipitation. What conclusions were made by the members of the commission as a result of research on the terrain and what was reported to the top management is unknown."
"The act of investigating the corpse of Slobodin Rustem was written as if by a carbon copy with the acts of investigating the corpses of Dyatlov, Kolmogorova, Doroshenko and Krivonischenko.
After the autopsy of the dead was done in Ivdel, the corpses were sent to the Sverdlovsk military morgue, where they conducted a second autopsy to determine the causes of death.
The morgue, to identify the bodies of Igor Dyatlov and Rustem Slobodin, the tenth participant of the trek Yuri Yudin arrived. He noticed the dark brown color of the uncovered and processed corpse of Igor Dyatlov, the color of Rustem Slobodin's unprocessed corpse was ordinary. Later, the unusual dark color of all the corpses will be spoken by those present at the funerals of the children.
In the acts of SME, the color of the skin of corpses is described as reddish purple, after the morgue the color of the corpses changed and acquiredbrown shade, which was noticed at the funeral. Methanol in the gastrointestinal tract is converted dangerous poison - formaldehyde, This poison was in the corpses. To neutralize formaldehyde potassium permanganate (manganese) is used. When formaldehyde reacts with potassium permanganate, a violent reaction occurs accompanied by a high temperature, as a result of which formaldehyde rapidly boils and evaporates. Skin color acquires a tan color.
To treat the corpses in order to oxidize the methyl alcohol and volatilize the formaldehyde bodies, apparently potassium permanganate (potassium permanganate) was used. After treatment with manganese corpses acquired a brownish color, this unusual dark color surprised those present at the funeral."
"Sud.med.expert of the regional forensic medical examination bureau Vozrozhdenniy
Prosecutor of Sverdlovsk Region State Counselor of Justice of the 3rd class Klinov
Prosecutor criminalist of the regional prosecutor's office jr. counselor of justice Ivanov, witnesses: Gordo, Naskichev
The re-established put a seal of the forensic expert on the document.
The case was made, the true cause of death is hidden ...
The role of the orderly in the Ivdelsky morgue, due to lack of it, had to be done by Korotaev Vladimir Ivanovich.
He worked with corpses to hand over to Sverdlovsk the bodies of those killed for histology (the conclusion of which is not in the case).
His, a 22-year-old investigator, then surprised by one fact - after the opening of every corpse, everyone went about being washed with ethyl alcohol. For this, a barrel with alcohol was brought to the morgue.
Oxidation of methanol in the body occurs with the formation of stronger poisons - formaldehyde and formic acid. Antagonist (neutralizer, antidote) of methanol is ethanol (ethyl alcohol), which competes with methanol for oxidative enzymes and delays the formation of toxic metabolites of methanol.
When methanol hits the body or hands, they must be washed off with plenty of water. When methanol hits special equipment. clothes, it should be removed, washed in warm water, and the body washed in a shower at least 15 / pminut.
Morgue of the "p / y H-240" section of Ivdel. Korotaev V.I. was present at the autopsy of the bodies.
There was no soul in the Ivdel morgue, so it was easier and more effective - the methanol labeled with radioactive nuclide, which was saturated with frozen bodies, and which could accidentally remain on the bodies of medical workers, was neutralized with the help of ethanol.
In Ivdel at that time there was Genrietta Eliseevna Churkina, her Korotaev VI. asked to make an examination of the tent.
She drew attention to a strange shade of clothes of the dead, hung up after processing on the street.
I was present at the medical examination of corpses, which was conducted by Boris Vozrozhdenniy. I remember well, when they took off their clothes and hung them on ropes, we immediately noticed that she had some strange light purple hue, although she was of very different colors.
I asked Boris: "Do not you think that the clothes have been processed?" He agreed.
In order to exclude the possibility of erroneous use of methanol as a spirit beverage, chemical ink or another colorant of dark color, which is readily soluble in methanol, is added to it at a rate of 2-3 liters per 1000 liters of methanol.
All information from Ivdel ceased, all lived only by rumors.
Only now I understand that at this time chemical analyzes of the first 3 people found were discovered, something was discovered that was secret, that it was necessary to hide and therefore all information was classified ...
Batalova Galina Kiryanovna (Zinaida Kolmogorova's girlfriend)"
You are correct... The order in which the photos were taken have been mixed and matched over the years. I would assume the investigators knew full well the order in which they were taken and this proves without a doubt no photos were taken after this point. In other words.... The 'three heads' exposure was either (a) done during the developing process (in the lab) to snap the wound/ready shot before access to the film cartridge was possible, or (b) the exposure sequence came sometime before the tent was erected. In other words..... No picture was taken within the tent. End of debate with no conspiracy needed. Facts are facts Nigel. Your going to have to deal with them one way or another.
STATE COUNCIL OF JUSTICE OF III CLASS
(N. Klinov)
May 28 , 1959
......................
In one of the cameras, a frame (made last), which depicts the moment of excavation of snow for the installation of the tent, was preserved. Considering that this frame was shot with an exposure of I / 25 seconds, with a diaphragm of 5.6 at a film sensitivity of 65 Un. GOST, and also taking into account the density of the frame, it can be assumed that for the installation of the tent hikers started about 5 pm I of . II. 59. A similar picture was taken with another camera.
After this time, not a single record and not a single photograph was found.
Unbelievable hypocrisy!!!
Try and read my posts a bit more often, e.g. - 09-09-2017 16:11 (GMT).
Might help you with your hypocrisy...
Hi all! I have read here where a few of you believe the 9 hikers couldn't have been murdered by people since there "were no other footprints found". It is very possible to brush away your footprints in snow.
I was just posting about footprints to show that none were found around the tent, where I would think would of been the place with the most accumulation of footprints. Whether they were removed by the weather or other individuals, IDK
Helpful to whom exactly? His followers?
I can see you have great admiration for Nigel but I will have you know, HE is the person who is incapable of respective discourse. The very second I walked into this echo chamber hornets nest, I was patronized, mocked, and disrespected. Interestingly enough, I am one of very few posters who is very comfortable in stating 'I don't know exactly what happened". I am not invested in a solitary theory in which prohibits my ability to rationalize all possibilities. Its that simple. I have noticed the BL group are very arrogant and disrespectful to anyone that does not drink from the same koolaid bowl. Heck, I even complimented Nigel a few time and the action was returned with a high/mighty arrogance in which I haven't seen in quite some time. John is just a straight up narcissistic asshole..... I call it how I see it. Just how I roll.
"User45 - nothing wrong with some harmless banter over the internet. If LC has a problem it's, well lets call it "theory envy".
I do not envy any particular theory or person.... Enough said.
@LC - "specially when desperate." - i'm happy to consider any sensible theory, particularly if it has photographs"
You are desperate in which you conduct your research, or shall I say fact inventing. Grasping for any minute unknown to twist out of common sense and often content to force-fit the BL narrative. Yeah u expect readers to read your post, but ignore theirs.
From what I see, you don't have supporting photographs of your theory either. When in doubt, throw it out.... Not when in doubt, make shit up in efforts to drive a false narrative. I give respect to those who return the favor, you burn that bridge with me and I'll be on that ass like a fly on shit.
@Sandy...
This is exactly the hypocrisy I speak of. They will only observe what is visible through a narrow looking glass and reject all conflicting information and evidence. This isn't a forum of ideas and constructive conversation. It is a forum of walking the BL line or face the plank.
This would coincide perfectly that the hikers were being stalked by people. I thought this pic was a hoax but now realize it really was on NTB's camera. This is proof they weren't the only people out there.
If you are just 2 or 3 guys and in no hurry you can even step into each others tracks to appear to be only one person. Of course that wouldn't work for a whole platoon. If you have even more time, your last man can blend in your tracks by swiping through them with a pine branch manually. Less effective but faster would be simply dragging a branch behind you.
The traces of the swiping will be visible but less than tracks and will also disappear faster over time with more snow or wind.
This is most efficiently done by using snowshoes or skis and moving in a single file. If the elements are with you, wind and snow will erase the trail. There was plenty of time for further snowfall to have fallen & erased the prints also. We know it snowed a lot more as the last 4 bodies were found under 12 FEET of SNOW.
@Nigel:
Since you are always quoting from her book, why did you never mention that she also believes the hikers were murdered by people?
Svetlana Oss in her book "Don't Go There" believes that Khanty hunters who had taken Agaric Fly to get themselves in a killing mood killed Rustem Slobodin with a dynamic head kick and inflicted the chest injuries by jumping or bouncing on the chests of Yuri Doroshenko, Lyuda Dubinina and Semyon Zolotaryov. Svetlana claims, they wanted to avoid shooting so as to foil investigators which is why they sanitized the tent area, covering their footprints with snow and making the cuts themselves, thereafter forcing the hikers to discard clothing and footwear which is why Dyatlov's jacket and flashlight were found outside the tent.
Svetlana interprets frame №17 from Thibeaux Brignolle camera as a hunter who was following the group briefly emerged and this photo was taken before the figure retreated back into the woods. This would also explain their choice to pitch the tent away from the treeline. Zolotaryov and Thibeaux were almost fully clothed and wearing some kind of footwear.
I don't believe it as Kanty hunters, but agree with everything else she said.
@Nigel: I can't fathom either why you could possibly think anyone would have "theory envy" of your ludicrous BL nonsense. You should use some of Svetlana's quotes on how she thinks the 9 were murdered because she makes perfect sense.
I also reread ALL the hikers' autopsies & wow, only obvious almost all these people had the sh!t hit & kicked out of them. All those hand injuries & body injuries on even the ones that died from hypothermia. Like one of the experts had stated "bodies don't usually look like this & have all these hand to hand fight injuries when they're found perished from hypothermia".
I can't understand how anyone that reads & studies all 9 autopsies could possibly think anything else happened BUT that they had the crap just kicked/beat out of them.
@Jaime: Research "human mutilations". There's especially one (amongst many) where the poor guy was found deceased & most of his organs were "suctioned" out, amongst other weird, never seen b/4 suctions like that. I do believe at least that that poor soul was murdered by something not of this world. The cattle/animal mutations were done in just the same way. I do not believe other people have the knowledge/tools to perform these exact same mutations.
"fabric COULD HAVE been getting warm/hot which MIGHT HAVE encouraged curling"
@LC - "specially when desperate." - i'm happy to consider any sensible theory, particularly if it has photographs.....
You should respect Nigel a bit more. The man has been nothing but helpful on this subject such as it is. I check in daily to read about the new discoveries of Nigel and the "team".
You have a different view than he does, thats fine, because that is exactly what's keeping Dyatlov Pass alive, I do not want you to change your view.
Just saying that we should debate with eachother, but always respectfully. For we are with the same reason here, to seek logic and reason on a very complex subject.
Nope.... Just the mind and eyes of the beholder. Especially when desperate.
Cooling, welp lets see here...its Siberia, expect it to be cold. However your supposed 'heat' source is present in the "picture", so your cooling idea wouldn't apply at the time of the "photo".
Again... This is thick canvas and not your daughters tutu. Canvas by the very way its woven, does not curl as you imply. Your again reaching for extremely thin straws. But hey, at least I read your post.
Thanks for looking!!
"rolls eyes again. No i haven't read your recent stuff, as said if it's not concise i'm not reading it."
Hi Nigel. Sounds like a compelling rebuttal. I especially enjoyed the part where you can not read something but yet claim it to be concise. Your super human skills are legendary!
This is defeat folks..... Take a good hard look.
"I've already proven there was only one tear top/bottom in the middle of the tent from snow weight" - rolls eyes again. No i haven't read your recent stuff, as said if it's not concise i'm not reading it.
@all - As John has proposed the fabric could have been getting warm/hot which might have encouraged curling. Also if this was after one end of the tent had collapsed then the fabric would have been quite relaxed anyway.
So my theory would be that with the side of the tent at say 45 degrees, SZ pushed the lens past the top of the slit but still capturing the curled bottom. The shot being quite saturated from the luminosity of the object but still clearly showing the weave of the canvas both with light passing through it and on the edge of the cut.
Wrt the point that the film could simply be water damaged. The theory is that SZ was KGB seconded to the group with a specially provided camera for night photography which explains why Yudin never saw him use it for recreational photos. So it follows that this camera wasn't a standard commercial device but would have been engineered to a military specification. It was very probably waterproof.
Alot of this is the reason why I think its possible for the murderer to have come from within the group. There are several diary entries that to me are clear signs of Igor not acting right, and you have several guys listing after the same gal... Stranger things have happened!
All in all, the BL theory for me is taking a back seat. The more I research it and tue more Nigel and John go on about the fantastical speculation its built upon, the more I'm turned off of the idea.
There were no tracks discernible around the tent from the Dyatlov group or anyone else.
Besides, I've already proven there was only one tear top/bottom in the middle of the tent from snow weight. AND, the student search team dug it out with a shovel and axe..... The shovel and axe cut the holes on the inside of the canvas because by then, sections of it were pealed/ripped back and the inside was then facing outward. Don't you read my posts? Its all right thar in the case files.
No the horizontal lines are illuminated wind blown snow/graupnel passing across the shutter speed modulating as they rotate. So the slit base is horizontal.
Are saying you believe these there slits are whats in the picture, and the camera was turned 90 degrees?
http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-tent-cuts-03.jpg
Three heads is just the given title of the photo and has much to do with it's contents as "Jaws", "Eagle" or "Plane".
There was no 'tripod' and the 'three heads' photo can literally be anything. It's unreliable data, its that simple. You look at it and see three heads... I look at it and see three fingertips in front of the lens from when the developer snapped the last shot because it was pre-wound for the next exposure when found.
Exactly, i venture 3 gloved fingertips of the left hand while using the right to trip the shutter
@all - Here's a video from the Chilean Navy of a "UFO" demonstrating in infra red what i think SZ was photographing that night. - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcNALjt6dBA . 3.00 thru to 5.43.
Here the glow discharge is sub luminous but demonstrates how the rapidly it can change shape.
So one photo could be a blob, another is a plane, another is a misty mesh etc etc.
Remember if he was a KGB field operative with a secret camera then he wasn't capturing the night sky for the fun of it. Every frame had to be justifiable, he only had say 33 frames. Nothing got wasted. Imo every one of those photos are shots of what he was seeing that night.
lyudmila isn't going anywhere
Semyon isn't going anywhere
Alexander isn't going anywhere
Doubtful Rustim can comprehend going anywhere
-- I don't think I saw this before today so (here goes)
--- if something entered my tent -- something that I just saw explode and injure (badly injuring !) my fellow campers -- something I didn't understand -- but something very physical / as opposed to optical illusion -- something that knives and / or axes couldn't stop or injure -- if that blocked the entrance/exit and I thought was coming for me -- I'd slice my out of the other end of the tent ASAP !
How about Brusnitsyn.... the young hiker from the university with the party that found the tent. SURE LC, LETS GET IT ON!
"Interrogation of witness Brusnitsyn
The guys at an attempt to climb the ridge height of 1079 found an abandoned tent. In the camp they brought three cameras, Slobodin's jacket, an ice ax, which was stuck near the tent, a flashlight found near the tent and a jar of alcohol.
At four o'clock we were caught by a group of Kurikov with a walkie-talkie. A radiogram was immediately transmitted about what happened to the coordinates of the tent. By radio, we were given the task to organize a landing site for the helicopter landing and choose a place for the camp for 50 people."
Welp.... ya found the tent, rummaged around a bit, found the ALCOHOL of course! next..
"The tent is placed on a slope of height 1079. Entrance to the south. The steepness of the slope in this area approx. 20-25 °. Depth of snow up to 1.5 meters. A shallow pit was dug for the horizontal installation of the tent."
Welp.... It was actually South East and more East then South, but I digress! #%&@ these people are dense... next
"Under the tent put 8 pairs of skis down attachments. Thanks to the dense snow cover, the tent was installed very firmly. Everything is covered with already clammy snow, except for the southern skate, fortified on a ski pole and tied for a pair of skis. Under the northern ridge there was no stick."
Wait.... no stick! WHERE DID THIS BATON GO? Nigel will tell you it was broken to make super tactical BL capturing tripod. As if they had a VIDEO camera and deeded to keep it steady. (eyes roll) lets get it...
"Snow was chosen with the help of skis and ski poles. Ten people worked without any system. In most cases ("things" are crossed out - note ed.) Everything was pulled out directly from under the snow, so it was very difficult to determine where and how each thing lay. "
Did I read that correctly? "it was very difficult to determine where and how each thing lay" Good to know.... next!
" First they took out several blankets, frozen in a ball, then buckets, a stove, 2-3 sacks of breadcrumbs, boots, etc. The things in the tent are arranged in the following order. At the bottom of the bed rucksacks. Then 2-3 blankets. Next were the quilted jackets and personal belongings of the participants. Buckets, stove, ax, saw were lying at the entrance to the right. Here was part of the products: rusks, sugar, condensed milk, untied bag with a loin. The rest of the products were in the far right corner. Most of the shoes ("lying" - crossed out, comment ed.) Were placed on the left side of the tent. Two pairs - right in the middle. The rest of the things are in disorder in the tent."
2-3 sacks of breadcrumbs!!! Holy crap thats alot of rye bread!
("lying" - crossed out, comment ed.)... Ive seen this before.. It means the person being interviewed recanted or otherwise corrected a statement on the spot. (thumbs up).
"The rest of the things are in disorder in the tent." Hey hey, HEY! The top brass man-in-charge of the tent investigation just told us there was no struggle, but yet the tent contents are in DISORDER! Leaving the tent in a hurry, a scuffle, are just sloppy Johns... I mean sloppy pigs? Whatever, you decide. next!
"Apparently the group was in the final stage of dressing and preparing for the night at the time of the incident. In the near half found a few crusts from the loin. There are rusks scattered all over the tent."
https://www.google.com/search?q=rusks&rlz=1C1AOHY_enUS710US711&oq=rusks&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.2261j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 .
OMG... Rusks all over the place!!! What the hell were these people doing!!! LOL. moving one... oh you gonna like this one Nigel, trust me.
"Above all things lay a ski-slit cut into several pieces, apparently, the northern end of the tent was strengthened on it. Decide on the spoilage of the stick, given that in the group there were no substitutes it is possible only under special circumstances."
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA....... The stick (ski pole) was used as an anchor on the Northern end of the tent!!!! Actually was North West but I digress again!!! THE POINT IS..... NO FREAKING TRIPOD FOR BL VIDEO FOOTAGE. Read the GD case files!!!!!
"Where the tent was set, were about 5 hours. Nespasha dug hole, and calmly prepared for bed. About 7 o'clock something unusual still unprecedented by anybody has forced hikers to leave a tent in a panic. Running stripped, in bad weather at night from a single warm corner is possible only under pain of death. This strange phenomenon (light penetrating through the tent, sound, and possibly gases)"
And..... there ya have it. This is the first low-level BL conspiracy to surface... from a kid hiker from the university who heard of (maybe saw) Nigels famous "three heads" photo. He was interviewed some time after the incident mind you and wild stories were apparently everywhere.... You name theory... it was the talk of the town.
Successful cover up? Since when does a funeral constitute an unsuccessful coverup? This very site wouldnt exist otherwise. If they wanted to 'publicly' solve it, they would have continued the investigation in open forum. What is this.... upside down world?
Besides... there is ample amount of evidence showing the hiker in fact, did not spy on anything through peepholes, and they quite possibly did NOT cut their way out of the tent in panic. Unfortunately for you, the entire BL theory is based false assumptions. :/ Thats why my posts have gone unchallenged.
http://www.viafanzine.jor.br/site_vf/pag/5/dyatlov_part01.htm
"Those golden years for the Soviet Union were also marked by an incomparable blossoming of sports tourism, especially among students. In 1957, sports tourism was officially introduced in the USSR's Single Sports Classification. The new sport quickly became popular: it gave them the opportunity to visit new places, expand their personal horizons, make new friends and chat intimately with old friends around a fire, sing songs of their own making to the sound of a guitar, their resistance and perfect their physical preparation. Clubs specialized in sports tourism were created in almost all schools and in all institutions of higher education. Twice a year - during the winter and summer holidays - crowds of young men in waterproof jackets could be found all over the country, leaving with their backpacks for the next walk.
The UPI (Russian acronym for the Ural Polytechnic Institute), now Ural State Technical University, had prominent athletes at that time. The UPI is based in the city of Sverdlovsk (now Yekaterinburg), as it was called during the Soviet era. The city was, and still is, an important technological center, inclusive, for the military-industrial complex. In the Institute that excelled in generating so many talents for Soviet engineering, Boris Yeltsin, who would become the first president of Russia, was formed in 1955.
In December of 1958, a group of university students, all experienced hikers, planned a great hiker hike in the third and highest category of difficulty. They would pass through the north of the Sverdlovsk Oblast, seeking the summit of Mount Otorten.
Preparations for this trip extended over the months of December 1958 and January 1959, during which students were still taking their exams. The walk should only be carried out during the winter holidays.
The number of participants changed several times, as some of the students who signed up for the walk later, and for no apparent reason, refused to participate. This is a curious fact, since, according to statistics, on planes, ships or trains that suffered accidents, they did not usually present 16 to 17 percent of the passengers, as was also the case in this tragic case.
In this way, instead of the planned 14 participants, Igor Dyatlov led the walk, 10 people, six UPI students, three young engineers, who only six months had received their diplomas. Also at the beginning of the walk, a hiker camp instructor, the oldest of them all, joined the group, Semyon Zolotaryov, 37, known only to Dyatlov.
During the winter holidays of 1959, the same day January 23, several groups of students of the fourth and fifth year of the UPI left for skiing trips in various categories of difficulty.
The group that embarked on a second-rate trek to the southern Ural was led by Mikhail Sharavin, a fourth-year student. By the route of the trip of the third, or higher category of difficulty, by the Ural Polar, followed the group of students of the fourth year, under the direction of Serguei Sogrin. In the similar routes of the third category by the Ural of the North they left at the same time and, in the same wagon of the train, the groups of Yuri Blinov and Igor Dyatlov. Several groups made their trips through the classic routes of the Middle Ural.
Thus, in that winter of 1959, practically all the Ural was covered by a network of ski routes of the hiker section of the UPI sports club. That was a great achievement of amateur student tourism. In particular, they seemed attractive routes by Ural Polar, which was scheduled a new hiker experience for students UPI: it was three winter climbs to the tops of the hills Sablya, Neroyka and Telpos e z.
The route of Igor Dyatlov's group seemed no less attractive: they intended to climb the mysterious mountain of Otorten, the top of the Poyasoviy crest in the Ural of the North. In the mansi language, the name Otorten means "Do not go there".
The members of the group decided to carry out a third-degree walk, that is, in the greatest category of difficulty, dedicating it to the next XXI Congress of the Communist Party of Soviet Union (CPSU). Not only because it was then a popular practice to dedicate some of the personal achievements to the important events of the country, but also because the young people were all members of the Komsomol , the Communist Youth Union. In addition, such dedication gave the group an apparent official status, in opposition to "wild tourism."
----- you can see from this a number of things:
1) these were highly valuable students and engineers.
2) the Urals were full of student hikers that winter.
3) there is NO REASON TO SUGGEST A SECRET SOVIET PLOT TO MURDER THESE STUDENTS.
4) The last thing the Soviet Government wanted was to hear that they all died in a mountaineering accident -- this was a political disaster! The initial response was to go rescue them (they must be lost) and not to cover-up some imagined plot.
----- the semi-official status meant that there would be publicity and etc. -- what the authorities feared the most happened: they all died in a disaster. The central authorities wanted to solve this -- not cover it up.
----- if there was any cover-up it was unsuccessful to say the least --- see the many photos of the huge public funeral for the group.
----- if there were any to blame --- WHO ? --- maybe some junior party member ? --- They found none to blame.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/images/2013/02/130225112504_1_900x600.jpg
http://s.newsweek.com/sites/www.newsweek.com/files/styles/embed-lg/public/2017/06/12/nasa-artificial-clouds.jpg
http://assets.atlasobscura.com/article_images/42539/image.jpg
http://image.ibb.co/fHuHia/ia8fm.jpg
Actual photo of two such tests above... All I am saying is that this could very well be the source of many if not most atmospheric 'BL" phenomenon in the Ural area.
Even more interesting is the substances used in such tests.
A year ago, before the tragic events of February 21, 1958, the USSR launched for the first time a domestic single-stage liquid geophysical rocket R-5A intended for research and study of the upper layers of the atmosphere associated with flights at high speeds and altitudes of about 500 km using the method artificial luminous clouds (ISO).
The essence of this method was to observe the optical effects that occur when certain chemicals are released into the atmosphere. Thus, in the emission of alkali metal vapor and some other substances into the sunlight-illuminated layers of the atmosphere, resonance radiation appeared, the intensity of which at each point of space is related to the local concentration of the atoms of the substance, which made it possible to visualize the spatio-temporal structure of the formed IRF.
By photographic and spectral observations of such clouds, one can obtain information about the parameters of the atmosphere-the velocity and direction of the wind, the parameters of molecular and turbulent diffusion, temperature, electric field,
Picture of artificial aerosol clouds, photo 1Picture of artificial aerosol clouds, photo 2
Observations of artificial aerosol clouds, luminous due to scattered solar radiation, made it possible to study the regularities of scattering and transport of finely dispersed dust particles.
The simplicity and clarity of the ISO method led to its rapid spread, especially for measurements of wind speed, molecular and turbulent diffusion. Data on wind and molecular diffusion began to be obtained practically in all experiments carried out with the help of rockets, in which clouds of alkali metal atoms were created.
When using different compounds for the creation of ISO, the method of artificial formations could be applied in a very wide range of heights - practically from the surface of the earth (smoke clouds) and up to several hundred and even thousands of kilometers (barium, lithium and other artificial glowing clouds). Nitrates of alkali metals (NaNO3, KNO3, CsNO3), azides (for example - LiN3, BaN6), peroxides (for example - BaO2), alumina (AlO) were used to create the IRS.
In the USSR IS Shklovsky and VG Kurt conducted an experiment on the creation of a sodium cloud at an altitude of 430 km in 1958 and for the first time determined the density of the atmosphere at this altitude.
What could be the connection between ISO and the fireballs that were spoken about in the Urals at the time?
Artificial clouds (ISO) were created to study and predict phenomena in the upper atmosphere in regions remote from meteorological stations. Perhaps these atmospheric studies with the help of ISO were necessary during flights of air transport over the Ural mountains.
In 1959, artificial clouds could be observed above the mountains of the Urals in the form of "fireballs".
What happened then?
Are the cases of delivery of a dangerous cargo to oil and gas fields by air transport known after this tragic event?
Yes, they are known."
I didnt say they would seal it off 'if it was muder'. I am not stuck in a box and can freely explore other possibilities without a bias narrative clouding my judgment. They could have sealed it off if the surface evidence suggested military influence, some type of contamination, or both.
Q. If it was military testing why spend all that money investigating?"
I have already answered this question.
And if I tell you not all BL type phenomenon is natural?
No need to consider BL being induced it's clearly a natural phenomena.
Or it suggests that they realised they had stumbled across something after they processed SZ's secret camera that no one knew about... Something that could have military potential.
Q. Why would they seal the area if it had just been murder?
Q. If it was military testing why spend all that money investigating?
Have you ever considered the fact the state 'could' be responsible for the lights, fireballs, or BL observed within the atmosphere in the Ural region?
It's in the book - Many years after the incident, retired and residing in Kazakhstan, Ivanov gave a long and very strange interview to a local newspaper, The Way of Lenin, a substantial portion of which is presented here:
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (p. 134). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
Or dig out "The Way of Lenin"
They wouldn't have spent a small fortune investigating it... They'd have just made something up."
Incorrect. You need all bodies and to do at least a preliminary investigation to determine whether or not a coverup is even required. You are assuming they would have known instantly. An investigation is required to also prove no gov involvement. The very fact the case was closed so rapidly, area sealed off, and the case not revealed for decades suggests the gov had a motive to hide their involvement. Im not saying agents killed them. I saying there are many ways in which the gov can intimately have a neg effect on the civilian population without intention.
Perhaps, but its an inconvenience that cannot be proven one way or another. He wasnt the only investigator #1 and Im sure each of them had their own direction in which they would have liked to take the investigation. What 'official document' does it show him being "formally told to forget everything he knew by his superior and remove all references to the fireball subject from the official report."??
They wouldn't have spent a small fortune investigating it... They'd have just made something up.
If the state was ultimately responsible to one degree or another, you darn skippy they would close the case and seal it.
Should read - "What is not stated is that the police investigator Ivanov wanted to pursue the spontaneous force = fireballs line of enquiry further but was formally told to forget everything he knew by his superior and remove all references to the fireball subject from the official report."
"and, as it was established in the subsequent forensic expertise, the leeward side of the tent where the hikers were headlong , was cut from the inside in two places, in areas that provide a free exit of a person through these sections."
"Neither traces of the struggle nor the presence of other people were found in the tent or near it."
"Forensic medical examination found that Dyatlov, Doroshenko, Krivonischenko and Kolmogorov died from the action of low temperature (frozen), none of them had physical injuries, not counting minor scratches and abrasions. Slobodin had a crack in the skull 6 cm long, which had spread to 0.1 cm, but Slobodin died from cooling."
"The investigation did not establish the presence on February 1 or 2, 1959 in the area of ??the "1079" height of other people, except for the group of hikers Dyatlov. It is also established that the population of Mansi, living in 80-100 km from this place, is Russian friendly, presents hikers, lodges, helps them, etc. The place where the group died, in winter time it is considered Mansi unsuitable for hunting and reindeer breeding."
"Given the absence of external injuries and signs of struggle on all corpses, the presence of all the values ??of the group, and also taking into account the conclusion of forensic medical examination of the causes of death of hikers, it should be considered that the reason for the death of hikers was the spontaneous force that hikers were unable to overcome ."
What is not stated is that the police investigator Ivanov wanted to pursue the spontaneous force = fireballs line of enquiry further but was formally told to forget everything he knew by his superior.
So that's it, either the state got the investigation wrong (unlikely), OR they covered something up because of a state action (e.g. military testing) OR they wanted to investigate something in secret and shutdown the public investigation and closed the area for three years. The huge cost rules out imo a state crime or military accident no need to spend that kind of money if you already know the answer. So the latter is what was going on.
Then again, I assume thats why you dont like it. Amazing the level ignorance on your behalf. Losing respect bro.... rapidly.
Despite what you think, I do try to read everything you post. FYI... I correct that in a following post, but if you are too dense to follow my posts, thats your problem. I just proved 1/3 of your BS wrong and thats why you refuse to face the music. Sad really.... Because BL is actually plausible if you didn't muddy your own waters so much.
" Did he just testify that the NORTH FACE of the tent was torn?!?!?"
No.
He said - "A tent with a windy side was torn in the middle part."
Bit of a difference there....
Can we try and have some more concise posting please? Trawling through acres of crap trying to understand your logic is a waste of my time. I'm not bothering to read it. You never read anything i post even if it's concise....
-- if you are too impatient, I suggest you scan down the comments and read my comments and go to the links provided .
special note to Jamie -- you really need to do some reading on this DPI .
"To carry out the investigation, the young investigator VI Korotaev. was given a rugged tent, torn by search engines, which was placed in the Lenin room. http://image.ibb.co/mO7xia/pal0.jpg
The tent was in terrible condition, with multiple tears and cuts, in some places there were punctured and burned holes, and 2 large pieces of canvas were cut / torn from its side. It is impossible to imagine how it was possible to conduct research on the tent, after it was ruined by search students.
Earlier, I noted that the actions of student search engines who parried the tent and injured her, no one controlled, so for the investigation it was incorrect to investigate the state of the tent in the Lenin room.
Thus, during the study of the tent, as prosecutor Ivdel Tempalov VI claimed, there were no incisions in the tent.
However, it is worth noting that on the windy side, ie. from the side of the spur, the tent was torn in the middle part, and, as Tempalov noted, it was brought at first glance by dense snow. This is the only place where Tempalov discovered damages in the tent, which means there were no cuts from which the hikers were escaping from the tent, there was no tent!
Sections and huge holes in the tent on the other side of the spur appeared after Tempalov VI. He examined the tent and instructed the students to collect it and all the things and load it into the helicopter. The tent was frozen to dense snow, so the students cut out and pulled it out of the frozen snow and ice.
Then, according to the testimonies of the search engines, the tent dragged to the helicopter to deliver it to Ivdel for research.
Those who saw the tent after the search engine students "worked" with it attributed the cuts made by the search engines to Igor Dyatlov's group. Then, based on this false "fact", a legend was invented that Igor Dyatlov's group cut the tent during its departure.
In fact, the tent was intact and the group left it in an organized manner. Things were all brought into the tent, and the entrance to the tent was closed.
The tent itself was not torn by the wind, and only from one side, from the side of the spur, it was pressed down by dense snow, resulting in a large rupture, the reason for the appearance of which just needed to be thoroughly explored ..."
Would ya imagine that!!..... dense snow build on one side pressing down causing a rupture, along comes the students ripping, tearing, shovels and axe!
I said it once, Ill say it again. For all we know they never 'fled in panic' to begin with and its HIGHLY unlikely they were 'observing' anything outside the tent in whiteout conditions.... remember this?? http://image.ibb.co/fsd69F/dtyjdty.jpg
"Prosecutor Tempalov VI in the presence of AA Chernyshev. and witnesses examined the tent of hikers, compiled a survey report and photographed the tent after all the "investigative" events held two days earlier by the students.
After such actions the students, of course, the tent lost its original appearance, and the consequence of no trace near the tent could no longer detect. The snow around the tent was strewn with search engines, and the tracks were sprinkled ...
In the report of the inspection of the tent, Tempalov, in particular, noted that the stretches of the tent on the south side were intact, while the stretches of the tent on the north side were torn off and the whole second half of the tent was covered with snow. The tent was installed on a level platform excavated by students, with a windy side it was torn in the middle part. In his testimony, Tempalov did not say a word about the tent sections, because there were no incisions!
Tempalov wrote that in the right corner of the tent near the entrance lay food and a flask empty from alcohol or vodka (the smell was felt) and that he had the impression that the students drank vodka and had a snack. This was the first version and an attempt by the investigative authorities to falsify the cause of the death of hikers.
In the blood of students, alcohol was not detected (methyl alcohol - not alcohol, but poison)."
Sounds about right!
AHHHH Mr.Chernyshev was there with Tempalov! Lets see what he says....
"The record of the interrogation of the witness Chernyshev
The tent already had a group of Slobtsov, Karelin, Maslennikov was there.
The search for this day was conducted by Moiseev with the dogs and they found the corpse of Kolmogorova and Dyatlov on the same day."
Great... these are the other fubar tent rummaging students... have to look into them!!! continue..
"On the second day, search groups were organized, and I with the prosecutor Tempalov and with him a man of up to 10 went to excavate the tent.
The tent was discovered on the slope of the peak "1079", 100-150 m from the top to the northeast. At first glance, the tent seemed snowed, but when we looked at it, we saw that the tent on the entrance side held on to the central peg and was well reinforced with ropes. Another of its edges, too, stayed on the wheel, but since The middle of the tent was covered with snow, and the skylights of the tent on the windward side were severely torn, then the edge sank and was under the snow."
You read that?? "skylights of the tent on the windward side were severely torn" WINDWARD SIDE WAS TORN
So with all this talk of high ass winds etc and statements like this..... You telling me there is NO CHANCE of the darn tent ripping from flap flap flappin in the winds for WEEKS rubbing on god knows what inside?? I call major BS man, MAJOR BS! And dont give me the "oh there was eyelets cut to watch the BL" horse crap.... you have no clue where, when or why those smaller three horizontal holes were made! I told you.... READ THE DARN DIARIES! For petes sakes.... here it is again!
DIARY OF ZINA
It was much easier to go yesterday without backpacks,
snow, snow, snow, snow
on the banks froze.
rivers snow snow
.
Lunch was an hour at 4 pm
"After dinner I did just one transfer and stopped to rest. I sewed up the tent. We lay down to sleep. Igor all the time was rude, I just did not recognize him. I had to sleep on the wood near the stove."
This damn tent was riddled with holes and in constant need of sewing repair!!!!! Folding, dragging, wet freeze, unfold, rip, oops.. Its also common to store anchoring gear for the tent folded up with it!
I DIGRESS AGAIN!!! Back to the Chernyshev interrogation!
" In the tent was impossible to shove; all of it was covered with snow and how things were located it was possible to consider only when digging it. The tent was installed capitally. On the snow was prepared a level platform, on the snow laid skiing surface up, on them the bottom of the tent was already lying. In the tent below were laid quilted jackets (aside from the slope), backpacks empty were laid out on the tent. In the same side of the tent (to the slope) each lay personal things."
Right.... I see whats going on here. The items were removed while DIGGING IT... LIKE WITH A FREAKING SHOVEL!! Talking about eye level cut.... Just what is the shovel-head width comparison to those slits Nigel..... Hmmmmmmm?? Think McFly!
More from my secret source... witch is dead on to the case files BTW.
"Tempalov photographed the camera and instructed her to disassemble, put things in their backpacks and move them to the camp ...
We disassembled a ten-man tent covered with a hard snow with shovels!
According to the former judge of Ivdel in 1959 Novokreschenova GV. Korotaev V.I. said that ... "the tent was covered with snow, and the snow was very hard. I had to use an ax, cut it with an ax and, of course, crippled it."
At the same time, there was no system to free the tent from snow. First they took out a few stale blankets, then buckets, a stove, two or three sacks of biscuits, shoes and other things. Things were stacked in backpacks, and dragged the tent to the search engine camp.
Naturally, after such manipulations on the tent, sections and torn pieces could appear."
BINGO..... a complete mishandling of evidence. NOW YOU TELL ME NIGEL... If this tent was flap flap flappin in gale force winds for weeks and a chunk tore back starting at an existing tear/hole OR a student (amateurs first on scene) ripped it open (you admitted they did) and the section was PEALED BACK..... You get after that tent digging it out of hard snow with an AXE AND SHOVEL..... THE CUTS WILL NOW BE ON THE INSIDE OF THE CANVAS THAT WAS PEALED BACK AND COVERED IN SNOW!!!! WOW... Freaking amazeballs!!!
"stretches of the tent from the north side were torn off and the whole second half of the tent was covered with snow"
Ok.... North E side torn, my mistake. Your safe on this one Nigel. For now. Rofl.
"Interrogation of witness Brusnitsyn
The guys at an attempt to climb the ridge height of 1079 found an abandoned tent. In the camp they brought three cameras, Slobodin's jacket, an ice ax, which was stuck near the tent, a flashlight found near the tent and a jar of alcohol.
At four o'clock we were caught by a group of Kurikov with a walkie-talkie. A radiogram was immediately transmitted about what happened to the coordinates of the tent. By radio, we were given the task to organize a landing site for the helicopter landing and choose a place for the camp for 50 people."
Welp.... ya found the tent, rummaged around a bit, found the ALCOHOL of course! next..
"The tent is placed on a slope of height 1079. Entrance to the south. The steepness of the slope in this area approx. 20-25 °. Depth of snow up to 1.5 meters. A shallow pit was dug for the horizontal installation of the tent."
Welp.... It was actually South East and more East then South, but I digress! #%&@ these people are dense... next
"Under the tent put 8 pairs of skis down attachments. Thanks to the dense snow cover, the tent was installed very firmly. Everything is covered with already clammy snow, except for the southern skate, fortified on a ski pole and tied for a pair of skis. Under the northern ridge there was no stick."
Wait.... no stick! WHERE DID THIS BATON GO? Nigel will tell you it was broken to make super tactical BL capturing tripod. As if they had a VIDEO camera and deeded to keep it steady. (eyes roll) lets get it...
"Snow was chosen with the help of skis and ski poles. Ten people worked without any system. In most cases ("things" are crossed out - note ed.) Everything was pulled out directly from under the snow, so it was very difficult to determine where and how each thing lay. "
Did I read that correctly? "it was very difficult to determine where and how each thing lay" Good to know.... next!
" First they took out several blankets, frozen in a ball, then buckets, a stove, 2-3 sacks of breadcrumbs, boots, etc. The things in the tent are arranged in the following order. At the bottom of the bed rucksacks. Then 2-3 blankets. Next were the quilted jackets and personal belongings of the participants. Buckets, stove, ax, saw were lying at the entrance to the right. Here was part of the products: rusks, sugar, condensed milk, untied bag with a loin. The rest of the products were in the far right corner. Most of the shoes ("lying" - crossed out, comment ed.) Were placed on the left side of the tent. Two pairs - right in the middle. The rest of the things are in disorder in the tent."
2-3 sacks of breadcrumbs!!! Holy crap thats alot of rye bread!
("lying" - crossed out, comment ed.)... Ive seen this before.. It means the person being interviewed recanted or otherwise corrected a statement on the spot. (thumbs up).
"The rest of the things are in disorder in the tent." Hey hey, HEY! The top brass man-in-charge of the tent investigation just told us there was no struggle, but yet the tent contents are in DISORDER! Leaving the tent in a hurry, a scuffle, are just sloppy Johns... I mean sloppy pigs? Whatever, you decide. next!
"Apparently the group was in the final stage of dressing and preparing for the night at the time of the incident. In the near half found a few crusts from the loin. There are rusks scattered all over the tent."
https://www.google.com/search?q=rusks&rlz=1C1AOHY_enUS710US711&oq=rusks&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.2261j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 .
OMG... Rusks all over the place!!! What the hell were these people doing!!! LOL. moving one... oh you gonna like this one Nigel, trust me.
"Above all things lay a ski-slit cut into several pieces, apparently, the northern end of the tent was strengthened on it. Decide on the spoilage of the stick, given that in the group there were no substitutes it is possible only under special circumstances."
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA....... The stick (ski pole) was used as an anchor on the Northern end of the tent!!!! Actually was North West but I digress again!!! THE POINT IS..... NO FREAKING TRIPOD FOR BL VIDEO FOOTAGE. Read the GD case files!!!!!
"Where the tent was set, were about 5 hours. Nespasha dug hole, and calmly prepared for bed. About 7 o'clock something unusual still unprecedented by anybody has forced hikers to leave a tent in a panic. Running stripped, in bad weather at night from a single warm corner is possible only under pain of death. This strange phenomenon (light penetrating through the tent, sound, and possibly gases)"
And..... there ya have it. This is the first low-level BL conspiracy to surface... from a kid hiker from the university who heard of (maybe saw) Nigels famous "three heads" photo. He was interviewed some time after the incident mind you and wild stories were apparently everywhere.... You name theory... it was the talk of the town.
From the official case files. You like Maslennikov Eugene Polikarpovich dont you?
"Protocol of interrogation of the witness Maslennikova EP
Most of the tent was occupied by Brusnitsyn, who will tell about the location of things in it better than me. reading that there was a prosecutor of Tempalov at the tent and a sufficient number of people I went down to the search group, tk. It was necessary to activate the search for people. "
Ok, Seems this guy is not the droid we are looking for in regards to whats in the tent... GREAT! ...... continue
"There were 9 backpacks in the Dyatlov's tent, 10 pairs of lies, of which 9 pairs under the tent floor, 8 pairs of shoes, 3.5 pairs of boots (7 pcs.), Several tealings and other property.
When the inspection of the tent was over, we dragged her to the helipad at a distance of 600-700 meters. "
DRAGGING! REALLY!?!? Meh, lets go find this Tempalov guy.
"Interrogation of witness Tempalov V.I.
Inspection of the tent showed me that it contains all the personal belongings of the students.
The tent was stretched on skis and sticks, hammered in the snow, its entrance was turned to the south, and from this side the stretches were intact, and the stretches of the tent from the north side were torn off and the whole second half of the tent was covered with snow. The tent had an ice ax, an extra pair of skis. On the tent was a Chinese lantern in the unlit state. 9 backpacks, 9 pairs of skis were found in the tent, all of them were under the tent floor, 8 pairs of shoes, 3.5 pairs of boots, quilted jackets and many biscuits, half a sack of sugar, a large number of concentrates, cereals, soups, etc. , cocoa, axes, saw, cameras, diaries of students, documents and money. At first glance, the tent was covered with snow. It was installed on a platform leveled by the students dug out. A tent with a windy side was torn in the middle part. The bottom of the tent was covered with padded jackets, backpacks and personal belongings of students. In the right corner, near the entrance there was a part of the products: cans of condensed milk, 100 grams of sliced ??fat, rusks, sugar, a flask empty from alcohol or vodka, the smell was felt, just like a jar with a drink (poured?) Prepared for consumption, the cocoa was diluted with water and naturally froze, a large knife was found near the bacon of a sliced ??me"
HOLY SHITBALLS!!.... Did he just testify that the NORTH FACE of the tent was torn?!?!? I thought the ENTIRE BL theory revolved around them escaping to the treeline to the NORTH to escape the BL to the SOUTH!!!! Your BL theory just took a gigantic shit in one sentence! MANY BISCUITS!... two sacks to be exact. but I digres ... lets continue..
"I installed the knife belonged to the students. I got the impression that the students drank vodka and had a snack. Boots there were in the tent and put near the feet of the students so it seemed to me, there were 7 pieces of felt boots immediately. In the case in the middle of the tent a stove was found. And many other personal belongings of students and public equipment, there were buckets, axes, mugs, cups in the tent. At the top of the tent a Chinese flashlight was found, which was closer to the entrance, near the exit from the tent I found a trace of the fact that one of the students had recovered easily. This track is old."
Wait wait wait..... lets look at this sentence again. "In the CASE in the MIDDLE of the tent a stove was found" WOOT! lts continue..
"Without me no one came to the tent and the tracks near the tent were not ours. I have not established any traces of struggle in the tent. If there was any struggle, it would be natural, something would be installed by me. From this point of view, I carefully searched and inspected the tent, but there were no signs of struggle, at least nothing said about it. The tent was located on the slope of the mountain. Descent from the tent steep and on the nast (dense snow). The descent is 2.5 km. There is no forest on the slope of the mountain, except for rare birches closer to the river. This descent, where in essence there are frequent winds."
Only one on site (at the time he inspected), no struggle (that he could tell), and BIG winds.. gotcha.... carry on.
"At the bottom of the tent 50-60 from us on the slope, I found 8 pairs of traces of people that were carefully examined, but they were deformed due to winds and temperature fluctuations. I failed to establish the ninth track and it was not there. Traces I photographed. They walked down from the tent. Traces showed me that people were walking normally down the mountain. Traces were visible only in the 50 meter section, there were no further them since the lower the mountain the more snow. At the bottom of the mountain flows a river up to 70 cm deep, as if from a ravine in which the depth of snow in places reaches 2 to 6 meters in thickness."
So..... 8 Sets, 9th was not there, and they walked. Awesome! Weird, but Awesome-sauce. next!
"From documents, diaries of students, records of the latter it is clear to me that the students died on February 1 or 2, 1959. From a number of testimonies of witnesses it is clear to me that these days in the mountains and not only in the mountains there was a strong wind and it was very cold . Based on the discovered corpses (in the number of five people), the situation in which they were to me it becomes clear that all the students were frozen, the attack on them is excluded. It's my personal opinion"
Cold as shit and windy as all get-out.... Gotcha! Not attacked... personal opinion.... Great... opinions... Just finds 5 pop-sickle cadavers and makes an assessment. Gee.... I cant help but wonder why no evidence of an attack was looked into on the scene! Mr.Jackwagon saw 5 frozen bodies covered in snow and had his mind made up. COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE!!!! lets go..
"The final opinion can only develop after the discovery and inspection of all other students, i.e. 4 more people."
Oh.... now you start to think about the dumb shit you just said....... sure. Moving on now...
"All students could leave their tent only because in the strong wind someone of them at the time when he left the tent blew the wind and this man raised a cry. The student was frightened, rushed out of the tent and were blown away from her by the wind, but with (...?) -windra they could not get into the tent again. And they froze. Of course, such a conclusion can only be made on the basis of the five corpses of students found. What is the cause of the death of the other 4 students I do not know, because their corpses have not been found yet. If these 4 students die due to freezing, the above version will be correct."
Oh whateva... the translation dates a dump sometimes, but it sounded like another Nigel (I know exactly what was said and done) hub hub comment. Lets see that last part again.
"
What is the cause of the death of the other 4 students I do not know, because their corpses have not been found yet. If these 4 students die due to freezing, the above version will be correct."
BINGO.... you were wrong-duck-dong.
What shall we look into next? Ill find something. TONS to look through.
@John.... Go intercourse yourself with your garden cucumber.
http://www.rjlm.ro/system/revista/15/199-202.pdf .
Probably applies more to NTB than RS as he had associated haemorrhaging.
"February 27 Maslennikov himself arrived at the tent and started to inspect it with great and meticulous care. A stove lay next to the entrance of the tent, but it was disassembled and in [its] cover. There was a single log outside the tent. We also noticed, almost all their things were in place: a bucket, axes, and cups. In his later testimony, Sharavin added that the stove was full of unburnt wood.
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (pp. 49-50). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition. "
Only in your head...
I have completely debunked the "hotspot" and you damn well know it.
"I don't accept that Zina was hit by a baton, THEY were dragging a sled for days over rough ground with a rope tied around their waist..."
Hope you don't mind, I made a single word in your statement above stand out. You idea is crap because Zina is the ONLY person to have this injury. In addition, YOU READ THE DAMN REPORTS..IT WAS NOT A DAYS OLD BRUISE.
Thats fine... I'll be home in a few hrs and burry this thread with information from a tower PC.
Not really, it was a dark night so whatever they were looking at must of been illuminated.
"IF they were looking out at something that scared them WHY would the go TO that thing."
Maybe it was coming to them? The tracks suggest they went around the hotspot.
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (pp. 202-203). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition. "
The other slits along the top of the tent (at eye height) were to observe something out there in the dark (only on one side). The three heads photo is imo a photo of it catching the folds and weave of the canvas fabric - http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Zolotaryov-camera-01.jpg .
(much like nigel does)
You are being the blockhead.
Have a good weekend.
You can't explain the injuries with your BL nonsense. And rats?? Seriously dude?? You REALLY think rats did some of the injuries??
Wow. I'm at a loss for words. Rats did not do that.
You think their corpses looked calm?? I wonder if their parents would agree. Sorry Nigel, but you're a blockhead. You can't be reasoned with as you're one of these people that "always have to be right".
Your BL theory stinks & doesn't match up with anything really. Time for me to leave work & gone til MON!! Please take another look at their deceased pics. These poor people look anything BUT CALM..... They look filled with sheer terror as one would look as they stare death right in the face & know they're going to die right now......
The encountered lividity demonstrates that the process was happening that night.
They didn't use the stove that last nite.
And it wasn't "something" that blocked their exit, it was "someone(s)" as in human.
With a Yeti, would have been blood all over.
Aliens? They don't murder humans like that.
@Nigel - We have to agree to disagree.
Oh yes, but it's more fun this way.
You fail to see the obvious as your need for it to be your theory of BL is too strong & overrides your common sense.
No it's just what i think, part of the case for BL is that no other theory stacks up as well.
I agree that there isn't one injury, but in all NINE! Even ID that was about the only one to just expire from hypothermia had his hands/knuckles beat up from punching and defending punches.
Maybe there was a fight, maybe it was rodents, maybe it was digging the ravine 4 out of the snow. Doesn't really support a murder theory imo.
To me, it CLEARLY shows these 9 people were all beaten to sh!t but only some of them expired from hypothermia. How do you think BL made ALL their hands look like that? Tell me how it crushed 2 of their skulls & broke 2 sets of ribs? Crushed a chest cavity? Hit Zina with either a baton or rifle?? Only obvious she was attacked from behind.
The BL theory only explains how they left the tent and how the ravine 4 died from superhuman force. I don't accept that Zina was hit by a baton, they were dragging a sled for days over rough ground with a rope tied around their waist...
Again, your passion to be "right" is clearly clouding your judgment & you are only seeing what you want to see. BL killing these 9 people is like saying the sky is purple.
Don't think so again part of the case for the BL theory is that it's the only one to fit the facts. The BIG problem with the murder theory is the question "how could they have been so stupid to light a fire?". LC answers this by deciding it was internal violence.
Go read their autopsies again. Pay special attention to their hand abrasions/scratches/knuckles bruised and skinned........abrasions to their faces.....dried blood on almost all mouths....tongue cut at the root while she was still alive to have swallowed the blood......being knocked down by BL over & over til both sides of the skull is crushed.....the sheer terror on their faces isn't from BL but evil humans.
Believe me i've read the autopsies more than you. The is nothing there to suggest the tongue was cut or that she swallowed any blood, it's a myth.
Also i don't see terror in their faces, in fact they seem quite calm.
You didn't answer the questions I posted about BL sustaining the injuries in about 5 or 6 of them?
Nigel. The point is... Your simply ignoring and attempting to write-off facts that do not support your BL theory. Its that simple. Several victims found on their backsides.... Why did they not bleed out of their ass or otherwise have a rat chew off a buttcheek!?!?. Your assertion is moot.
#1. Its common sense... Blood no longer flowing will settle with gravity BUT, that does not mean blood platelets stop containing blood where it belongs..... Not going to bleed out your ass anytime soon after you die. Dont worry about the new drawers getting blood soiled.
#2. Bodily fluids I'm sure can leak from a body cavity some time after death during a certain decomposition period BUT, unfortunately for you, their bodies were frozen solid as a rock with minutes of dying. Humans are mostly water, and said water is absorbed into every level of tissue. Ever seen water freezing right befor your eyes? Again... I don't think you grasp the severity of the temperatures.
https://youtu.be/rTYsohr5Z-I
In "Death on the Trail" (D.O.T.T.), the Russian author believes Rustem Slobodin was the first to die. He believes he attempted to attack the "robbers" at the tent & he was beat in the head then by the attackers. He was still alive & didn't die right away from his head injuries. Where he was found was where he had finally dropped & expired from hypothermia, but due to his horrific blunt trauma head injuries, his hypothermia was brought on much faster. He even suggests that Igor was heading back towards the tent to find Rustem but he died from hypothermia along the way.
I believe Loose Cannon posted his theory very similar to this.
I don't know if I believe Rustem was the first to die or not. It makes good sense that the 2 Yuri's at the cedar tree were the first 2 to die.
Very contentious statement. NTB was VERY well dressed for the cold (probably on watch) in particular he had two hats - by a tightly tied green woollen sports cap with three round holes sized 3 x 3 cm located in the front. A khaki canvas fur helmet with a zipper fastener [like a flying helmet]; the helmet is drawn by a cord.
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (p. 215). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
NTB gloves were in his pocket and AK was found with his jacket unzipped. Imo they were inside a shelter. Whatever NTB's head wouldn't have been cold.
You stated "The main point here is that many of the smaller injuries you categorize as "combat" or "BEAT TO SHIT" are ambiguous and could have other causes.
In fact there is NOT ONE injury that is CLEARLY caused by human violence. Everyone of them has an alternative solution."
You fail to see the obvious as your need for it to be your theory of BL is too strong & overrides your common sense.
I agree that there isn't one injury, but in all NINE! Even ID that was about the only one to just expire from hypothermia had his hands/knuckles beat up from punching and defending punches.
To me, it CLEARLY shows these 9 people were all beaten to sh!t but only some of them expired from hypothermia. How do you think BL made ALL their hands look like that? Tell me how it crushed 2 of their skulls & broke 2 sets of ribs? Crushed a chest cavity? Hit Zina with either a baton or rifle?? Only obvious she was attacked from behind.
Again, your passion to be "right" is clearly clouding your judgment & you are only seeing what you want to see. BL killing these 9 people is like saying the sky is purple.
Go read their autopsies again. Pay special attention to their hand abrasions/scratches/knuckles bruised and skinned........abrasions to their faces.....dried blood on almost all mouths....tongue cut at the root while she was still alive to have swallowed the blood......being knocked down by BL over & over til both sides of the skull is crushed.....the sheer terror on their faces isn't from BL but evil humans.
@Anna: Good points. I agree with everything you just wrote. You were the first person when I found this site that I came across & stated they were murdered by humans. You're exactly right & I agree with you 100%.
CE399_ 19-10-2016 20:09 (GMT)
Comment to all previous posts:
1. Zina Kolmogorova's postion at death is not mysterious at all. Zina was romantically involved with both of the men whose bodies were closest to her body. The group had split up at some point with some of them forming an expedition to try to get back to the tent. The "tent" subgroup was Zina, Dyatlov and Slobodin. Zina was the best clothed, strong and athletic but had been struck in the side and back with something resembling a baton (or butt of a rifle). She made it the furthest of any in the "tent" expedition but of course, succumbed to hypothermia. The "tent" expedition was ill-fated because no one was properly clothed and all had sustained injuries and expended too much energy most likely fighting off their attacker(s).
2. The attacker(s) killed Thibeaux-Brignolle most likely because he tried to be heroic in trying to defend the girl in the group who was closest to him in age. His injuries are consistent with an impulsive young man who is killed by a much more experienced fighter wielding a long, hard object like a baton, rod or rifle. Zina's injuries are also consistent with such a weapon and more closely match what a male assailant who was an experienced fighter would do to woman who tried to attack him.
3. Regarding the so-called "lack of external injuries". The medical examiners were mediocre. All of the victims were experiencing various stages of advancing hypothermia when they sustained injuries. Bruising is not seen because blood flow is retracted from the skin of a hypothermic person. The body concentrates blood into the vital organs when it becomes hypothermic. I have personally experienced this happening very rapidly and very acutely. A cut on hypothermic skin that is shockingly deep may not bleed at all. In a particular episode of M*A*S*H a patient is said to have survived because he was "frozen" and would have bleed to death in warmer weather. The television series was known for its on-set medical advisors who took real accounts of combat from the Korean War and adapted them accurately for the show. The only thing that is not entirely accurate about the episode is that the soldier was not "frozen" because freezing kills tissue and bursts vessels. The soldier was hypothermic and his blood flow was restricted so much to the area of the wound that it did not bleed. The noticeable lack of "external injuries" is due to hypothermia. Remember, people are quite conscious and alive when their bodies begin to react to hypothermia.
4. I have lived a number of years above the Arctic Circle. Lights, fireballs, and other strange luminescent events are common. People in the lower latitudes only know about "the Northern Lights" but there is a whole range of strange and spectacular things that happen at the higher latitudes. And it's not all lights either. Sound events often occur too, with and without lights. I have heard and seen things that I would think were alien ships whizzing by or crashing if I wasn't an engineer with a physics education. The amount of energy deflected and channeled by the earth's magnetic field is enormous and causes all sorts of light and sound shows at the higher latitudes.
Everyone wants to treat the fireball events seen around the time of the Dyatlov tragedy as special. Sorry, that sort of thing is not special at all. Go spend a couple winters up there and you'll see. I have. And I am not impressed at all by the stories. They are as common as hurricanes in Florida. Sure, some are bigger than others and some seasons have few and others a lot. But what was seen was not unique.
If you take any story in isolation, it can be made out to be a spectacular or strange occurrence.
How many accounts of the Dyatlov incident mention that the lights in the sky seen at that time were also seen before and after that day for many days and from year-to-year? And none of the witness accounts of the "halos" are certain to have occurred exactly on the day when the group perished which is another issue.
Group infighting does not explain the hurried exit from the tent unless someone pulled a gun on the rest of the group. Or say, grabbed Lyuda and threatened to slit her throat if the rest of the group didn't do as he said.
His theory ends with it being Yuri Yudin, the 10th hiker, that comes back with a couple men and murders them. NO way that happened either. All his other statements until that point are certainly a possibility. Yuri Yudin loved them and vice versa.
Granted skull fractures need another reason like falling.
The main point here is that many of the smaller injuries you categorize as "combat" or "BEAT TO SHIT" are ambiguous and could have other causes.
In fact there is NOT ONE injury that is CLEARLY caused by human violence. Everyone of them has an alternative solution.
That is a very strong fact for the murder theorists to answer.
note to Sandy -- there is a definite difference between BL and regular lightning -- they are related but not the same -- I do recognize that the two may sometimes have similar visual appearances and are thus confused in the reporting. (like the example I cited -- which I think is normal lightning -- and a very dangerous thing to do -- don't try this at home, as they say.)
So you don't even believe your own dribble, yet present it to be evidence of BL ???
To Loose Cannon. Yes, it is true that the pictures do not look anything like the hikers, especially Doroshenko.
While the experiment was under way, ball lightning appeared and travelled down the string, struck Richmann's forehead and killed him. The ball had left a red spot on Richmann's forehead, his shoes were blown open, and his clothing was singed. His engraver was knocked unconscious. The door frame of the room was split and the door was torn from its hinges.[12]
How does his injuries in ANY way, shape or form explain the 9 hikers' injuries?? His shoes were blown open?? I'm not surprised to read this. Lightening can be very lethal. This doesn't compare to what happened with the hikers.
NO WAY IS ANY FORM OF LIGHTENING, BALL OR OTHERWISE, GOING TO KILL NINE DIFFERENT PEOPLE AT DIFFERENT TIME FRAMES, IN DIFFERENT LOCATIONS & IN MANY DIFFERENT INJURIES.
What part of this can't Nigel/John comprehend?? Even in lightening attacks, there are survivors and any form of lightening has never killed a large group of people with different attacks.
The horse is dead. D-e-a-d. I'm through as well with writing anymore absurdity about all those 9 people being killed by BL. Impossibly absurd. The.End.
Georg Richmann[edit]
A 1753 report depicts ball lightning as having been lethal when professor Georg Richmann of Saint Petersburg, Russia, created a kite-flying apparatus similar to Benjamin Franklin's proposal a year earlier. Richmann was attending a meeting of the Academy of Sciences when he heard thunder and ran home with his engraver to capture the event for posterity. While the experiment was under way, ball lightning appeared and travelled down the string, struck Richmann's forehead and killed him. The ball had left a red spot on Richmann's forehead, his shoes were blown open, and his clothing was singed. His engraver was knocked unconscious. The door frame of the room was split and the door was torn from its hinges.[12]
-- I posted a pile of these. Apparently KMM didn't see that one either (and don't bother answering this as I am not responding to your useless posts of phony analysis)
LC -- I thought you were some sleep-deprived and angry 12 year old (you have the mentality of one --- or maybe a 10 year old) --- but in one of your curse-word filled rants (against either me or the ball-lightning hypothesis) you said something that changed my mind --- what you said / called me, was a "pantywaist" ! A "PANTYWAIST" ! No has used that word in the last half century ! I had to look the word up to be sure of its meaning, and then research its use. (see: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pantywaist --- which said its first use was in 1910 ! ) That word went out of use as a descriptive noun in the 1920's after which it was more used as an insult (implying: "sissy" ) however by the 1930's it had become a comic pejorative -- its last known use was in a B&W Bob Hope movie from the early 1950's ! ------ I now think we're dealing with an angry sleep-deprived 80 year old ! Dude! Is your hair white ? Do you have any hair left ? --- and most importantly ...... Do you take your teeth out when you go to bed ?
--- special note to Loose Shorts or whatever your name is: the BBC reports that your source of secret information, Alex Jones, of info wars, has declared hurricane Irma ...... a category 6 ! .... in spite of the fact that no such category exists ! (see: http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-41187164 )
--- as for Nigel, Anna, and a few others who are really interested in this sad accident -- and might even solve it -- I will be glad to comment / correspond on this site as my time allows -- I am fascinated by the enormous power that lightning and ball-lightning conveys and the possibility that we don't know what the heck it is, but that it is probably related to both plasma physics phenomena and radiant microwave energy in some highly unusual way. WHAT A FANTASTIC AND BEAUTIFUL WORLD WE LIVE IN ! I'm off to water the garden -- gd'day.
I also would have thought the 4 bodies that had 12 ft. of snow piled on them from Feb - May when they were found, would have been much more preserved than they were.
Lividity can be a useful reaction in determining the position of a body at the time of death and even whether a body was moved within the first few hours after death. When the blood cells begin to decompose, the release of the blood forms a bluish-purple bruise.
Lividity can also result when blood flow ceases after death. The blood that was formerly flowing through the body can be drawn to the lowest point in the body by the influence of gravity. For example, if a victim was lying on her right side at the time of death, lividity would be evident on the right side of the face, hip, and on the areas of the right arm and leg that were closest to the ground.
It is known for a FACT that some of the bodies had indeed been turned over.
Maybe Sandy, KMM, and Anna will find this interesting? I dunno
http://samlib.ru/k/kizilow_g_i/too_many_people_in_diatlov_group.shtml#ri4
Nigel - if that's all the ques. you need answering then it's pretty obvious just how all the injuries are indeed covered and administered by humans, probably soldiers, agents, some type of experts in hand to hand combat.
I find it almost laughable how you hang onto that ridiculous BL theory & that you think balls of anything could have sustained ALL nine people's injuries!! You're like a junk yard dog when you get ahold of something - you just can't let go.
Nigel/John: You are beating a dead horse. Stop it.
And to Anna: There was never a "storage house" for the robbers to "hide in".
@ Loose Cannon - it wasn't even a piece of soldier legging, more like a small patch torn off from a uniform or coat. Also, your 1st paragraph about Igor/Zina possibly heading back to help is very plausible & that is even mentioned in Death on the Trail.
@Loose Cannon - In D.O.T.T. (Nigel, see above), it was said that there were plenty of dry branches much lower down on the cedar tree that could have been retrieved to use for fire. That it didn't make much sense to go for the way higher up branches, unless someone was either trying to ascertain what was going on at the tent & the robbers or else after Yuri 2 had witnessed Yuri 1 being murdered by sitting on his chest & crushing it, thence the gray liquid found on his cheek. This comes from having your chest cavity crushed. Yuri 2 stayed in the tree as long as he could as he knew he would be murdered next. When Yuri 2's frozen hands couldn't hold on any longer & he fell hard, injuring himself & already almost dead from hypothermia. The "robbers" saw this & left him to die. Nothing further needed to be done, he would be dead soon.
ALL their injuries prove that almost ALL of them had been beaten to death like Loose Cannon posted. They were no match against soldiers.
The reason I believe Lyuda was alive when her tongue was severed L.C. is due to the fact that she had blood in her stomach and had swallowed the blood to get it there. She had to still be alive for this to happen.
I don't know how anyone could possibly believe that balls of ANYTHING personally stalked & killed NINE people and have SO MANY DIFFERENT injuries & most stemming from being beat to death & fighting back themselves. They weren't fighting fireballs, ball lightening or orange orbs.......Had this been the case, the injuries would have been different & I don't believe all 9 would have died. There would have been some survivors.
Nothing like this has EVER happened where a large group of people all die together with like injuries & no survivors.
I think the Yeti theory works better than BL folks.
Yeah... Really looks to be a varmint infested environment to me. NOT!
http://www.crime-mystery.info/unsolved-mysteries/the_mystery.jpg .
Thank you, come again.
Not if they're face down, gravity doing what it does, kinda shot yourself in the foot there.
Agreed crows will be detered by the snow, but rodents wont be that's where they live in the winter, under the snow.
Nice try. Yuris nose missing sure, but once again, common sense should prevail.
Might explain some of the "combat" wounds.
Could be an innocent explanation of course, falling out of the tree, concussed and unattended, ditto YD.
I find the way that YK's long johns were cut up to be strange. Why would you want to cut them halfway down and leave one lower half on? Quite weird. Surely the "tubes" would make the best improvised socks...
I have also seen pics of this nature but could never find them again recently for the vid.... Like the one on the left here... It was shown partially in your link but the feet were cropped of. https://ibb.co/fUuaJa
So it just seems to be the ankle area that is charred.
i was thinking of historical accounts. Wrt the TWA800 disaster, i'm with Paul Sagan that BL is a likely candidate but cannot be proven of course.
It's a fair point that the metal could have protected the contents of the flask..
It's very rambling, keeps repeating images but it does have some photos i haven't seen before including YK :-
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-O53sbU4FniU/V1nl9McdSmI/AAAAAAAAZII/lLbJLMFXe58bCFZfzz0uU1g-Krpb8pZ4gCCo/s456/12510291_787592554719729_2815355830832762872_n.jpg .
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-05C-Yn5v2UE/V1nl9GobpUI/AAAAAAAAZIM/z6Jlh4PpYVkxta9zuHEQ6Azn3g4tPn2OwCCo/s464/5479_787592534719731_4248310890730562006_n.jpg .
Note that the autopsy says - "There is a burn across the entire surface of the left anticnemion with a size of 31 x 10 cm with parchment density. In the lower third of the left ??? of brown-black colour with charred tissue and the blow out of the cutaneous covering ???? in the middle and upper thirds there is an ambustial surface ???red and light brown colour.
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (p. 215). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition. "
I can't see that damage in those photos, but curiously the right leg is covered...
this one- I've read LOTS of witness reports about alien abductions, ghosts, bigfoot, sea monsters, so yeah,.........
and this one- I must of missed them. Name me some and the names of the dead. (verifiable).
Where I was asking for names of the dead from ball lightning and the people who witnessed them being killed.
KMM... Could be. Unless she fell against a rock pretty hard, or its somehow attributed to decomposition?
Its just another instance in the autopsy report where they didn't elaborate, much like luda's missing tongue. Seems they left a lot of what would of been useful information out. Makes you wonder why
Nigel : Nearly all BL accounts have witnesses else you wouldn't have a report?
KMM 06-09-2017 07:18 (GMT)
nigel Nearly all BL accounts have witnesses else you wouldn't have a report?
Here was my reply to that
I've read LOTS of witness reports about alien abductions, ghosts, bigfoot, sea monsters, so yeah,...........
Like you said, you have no way to verify them !
see: re: KMM 09-06-2017 07:04 (GMT)
Nigel : Nearly all BL accounts have witnesses else you wouldn't have a report?
I must of missed them. Name me some and the names of the dead. (verifiable)
also, from the group diary (they were not singing subversive songs -- just singing -- which would annoy any sleeping travelers at the station)
January 24
7.00 (am) We arrived in Serov (town). We traveled with a Blinov's group. They have... things for hunting and other accessories. At the station we were met with hell of a hospitality. They didn't allow us into the building. The policeman stares at us suspiciously. There is no crime or vandalism in the city, as it suppose to be in times of communism. And then Yuri Krivo started a song, the cops grabbed him and took him away.
At the attention of citizen Krivonischenko, sergeant explained that the rules of §3 prohibited all activity that would disturb the peace of passengers. It is perhaps the only train station where the songs are forbidden, so we stayed without singing.
Finally everything is settled by end fo the day. We are leaving Serov to Ivdel at 6:30 pm. We were welcomed warmly in the school near the railway station. The steward (she is also a janitor) bolied some water, and helped us with everything we needed for the preparation for the trek.
@John - "--- any water in / on the tent would flash off at its boiling point (or thereabouts) and so would not heat the molecules (of the other stuff) up enough to cause a change; but a microwave would. "
There was a flask of alcohol in the tent which is unlikely to have survived the heating you're suggesting. I think it was more modest.
first of all -- the alcohol / flask was inside the tent and (most likely) stowed away (not touched - see reports) so there would be layers upon layers of shielding;
second -- the term "flask" leads me to think of a metal one -- brought for the same reason hikers would bring food either preserved (and maybe canned) but never in GLASS -- which would be a problem that would have to be dealt with asap if it broke and would take a lot of time to clean up the glass mess. I've done a lot of back-packing (including months long) and would never take anything in glass -- nor have I seen anyone else do so. The metal flask could heat up but if sealed would not likely be blowup the liquid inside; and it was not reported leaking.
lastly --- the tent would have been covered with snow -- from the continuous snow-fall and blowing -- this would tend to stick if it made the tent wet (from melting) thus forming a shielding layer of sorts (it was absorbing the microwaves)
it would be nice to find out more about that "flask" -- one account called it "medicinal alcohol" -- but another said the searchers drank it in (false hopes) of soon toasting the hikers alive -- the Mansi started quite a row when they suggested that they toast the dead ! (see references to the Mansi having seen/visited the tent and etc. BEFORE the hikers were found by the searchers - taking nothing) --- one site suggested it was "vodka" but none other did.
also: I should add that it is one thing to "boil-off" water, one molecule at a time --- and quite a different thing to continuously irradiate a flask to the point of exploding the flask -- remember that a metal flask would shield the contents from any microwave energy and, in a very cold environment would loose much of its acquired heat (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_shielding
--- or google Faraday cage.
Loose-Cannon 08-09-2017 03:42 (GMT)
KMM... Could be. Unless she fell against a rock pretty hard, or its somehow attributed to decomposition?
anything is possible, but idt a bone will decompose in 3 months.
"Hyoid bone fracture is usually the result of direct trauma to the neck because of manual strangulation, hanging, blunt trauma or projectiles. However, hyoid bone fracture caused by a fall has seldom been reported. We report the case of a young man who fell from 1.5 m while painting, which resulted as an isolated hyoid bone fracture. Hyoid bone fracture secondary to trauma may occur when a victim falls with a direct contusion of the neck"
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2211558712000349
setting the flashlight on the tent, and throwing his coat down, near the spot where he had exited (It’s difficult to conceive of another logical scenario that would explain these objects being found where they were).
--- Please note: there are several mentions, on several web-pages of evidence that the Mansi probably came across the hikers and their tent before the search party -- by putting the flashlight and jacket where they were found they were indicating respect for the dead, and an unwillingness to take any of the possessions. (least any Soviet interrogator think 'they did the killing)
from the official autopsy reports
"When palpation is felt, the unusual mobility of the ribs is determined"
"When probing the neck, the unusual mobility of the horns of the hyoid bone and thyroid cartilage is determined"
We know the ribs were broken and the heart punctured, so they had their cause of death. but if the hyoid bone was also broken this is pretty clear evidence of strangulation at, before, or around the time of death.
in the hiker's photo there are some pretty large tree trunks around the labaz ( see: http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Krivonischenko-camera-film1-15.jpg )
but in the rescuer's photo there are only much smaller trees and they are digging something out of the snow (see: http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6446/14124454.33f/0_be80f_eecbc44b_orig.jpg )
I think the rescuer's photo is of some other site. Unless the labaz fell over -- how did the snow appear so deep? --- and where did the large trunk trees go ?
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fmurders.ru%2FDyatloff_group_1.html&edit-text=%22
"You should at least read D.O.T.T ...... " what is DOTT and could you provide a link ?
This is the picture from what I understand when the cache was found. Is this after pulling it down? I dunno... http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6446/14124454.33f/0_be80f_eecbc44b_orig.jpg
Seems the ribs were described the same as the hyoid bone from external examination
"Well it wasn't much of a hand to hand fight, no broken noses, no torn ears, no black eyes, no gouged eyes, just abrasions and a few bruises. Maybe the soldiers wore boxing gloves? "
Must I post the list of injuries again? Multiple swollen heads, bloody mouths, bloody noses, skin ripped off knuckles down to the bone... Should I post the Zina hand again? Abrasions.... Lets see, you dont get them by putting your shirt on. You get them from contact with another object with enough force to leave a mark! Sounds like fighting to me. Not to mention 90% of them are to the head, face, and hands. So I guess BL REALLY likes themselves some face and hands, or you think they received all this in their simple hiking days prior? Of course we do happen to have THEIR VERY OWN pictures taken the day before and the morning of their last hike..... They sure look fine in the face to me! They received all these injuries THAT NIGHT. FACT.
"and crushed TBS’s skull, neutralizing them without leaving any obvious weapon mark.
Must have bee the boxing gloves again. Some punch, cracking the base of the skull as well as the rest of it."
I will repeat myself AGAIN.... Thanks for making me remember something I would rather forget. I have personally witnessed on TWO separate occasions a person punched so hard their skull eye socket was completely crushed inward, the second the temple are much like in this case... I took the person to the damn hospital. Guess what!.. not a single exterior cut or wound of the skin. Now you tell me.... What happens when you add a big freaking stick into the equation?... How about a rock? Now, these folks just happen to be wearing their HATS for the most part. Do you not think a winter beenie can/will help prevent exterior marks upon the affected area? Don't make me pull a John and start copy/pasting autopsy reports.
You are correct on the storage site... It was basically a hole cache with logs over the top from what I can tell.
"When probing the neck, the unusual mobility of the horns of the hyoid bone and thyroid cartilage is determined"
Wish they had been more specific on this, a fractured hyoid bone is almost always caused by strangulation
Poor Luda, she already had enough fatal injuries
What storage house? This was the labaz - http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Krivonischenko-camera-film1-15.jpg .
The multiple cuts in the tent were created in the panic and confusion of exiting a wriggling collapsed tent cover in the dark.
Yeah right, a number of slits were cut along the top of the tent "in confusion". Funny how they are all along one side at the right height for viewing something. No mention of why a camera was found on a tripod when they were just settling in for the night. Don't tripods take up room?
setting the flashlight on the tent, and throwing his coat down, near the spot where he had exited (It’s difficult to conceive of another logical scenario that would explain these objects being found where they were).
As suggested before the flashlight would have been useful for "toilet trips". You wouldn't want to wake people up in the night so the flashlight was left outside in a known place perhaps the jacket to.
The Dyaltov party was followed, but not very far. (Their being followed some distance would explain the heeled boot track found among their own tracks as they headed down slope - No one in the group was wearing such boots at this time).
This is just not true, NTB was wearing his valenki (felt boots) he was well dressed probably because he was on watch.
They set up a small base camp under a pine tree,
Cedar tree actually.
just out of site of the tent, and together built an emergency fire
An act of incredible stupidity if they believed there were men out to kill them. Unbelievable that SZ a WW2 veteran could be involved in this.
As said before the existence of the fire rules out a sentient threat.
Shortly before dawn, the soldiers returned to make sure no one was left to tell the tale. They discovered the shelter, and a hand-to-hand fight ensued.
Well it wasn't much of a hand to hand fight, no broken noses, no torn ears, no black eyes, no gouged eyes, just abrasions and a few bruises. Maybe the soldiers wore boxing gloves?
(This would explain many’s of the group’s injuries, including the bruised metacarples on ID and RS, RS’s concussion, and the baton bruise on ZK.)
Maybe there was a scrap between the group but it's not relevant to the deaths imo. I don't see a baton bruise on ZK, this Ian guy would do better to mention her cut hand.
ID, RS, and ZK managed to break free into the darkness. They made a run for the tent, desperate for the axes or anything to help their friends. (Such a level of desperation would explain why they left the group, the shelter, and the fire, when they were so close to freezing that they could only go a few hundred more yards). ZK, a strong and brave young woman came the closest to making it.
They were climbing into the wind but all giving up in 330 meters is saying something else imo.
As for the group that was left, the soldiers pressed LD and SZ to death,
So how did they "press them to death"? This isn't what the pathologist said.
broke YK’s neck,
Assuming he means AK, the pathologist never said the neck was broken. He said it was deformed. It's a curious fact that he didn't investigate this further.
and crushed TBS’s skull, neutralizing them without leaving any obvious weapon mark.
Must have bee the boxing gloves again. Some punch, cracking the base of the skull as well as the rest of it.
I don't think the soldier legging is a big issue, there is speculation that the den was a mansi hunter shelter, if so then they could have left it behind. Could have been there for a long time.
IF TRUE, could of belonged to one of the campers also.
I dunno about this 'soldiers clothing'. Where did this come from?
I have read where old (pertaining to 1920 military attire) military legging was found in the tent, and also a report saying another was found at the ravine. I believe would of seen it DOTT.
I dunno about this 'soldiers clothing'. Where did this come from? Its an ok theory I guess. I just hate going down the rabbit hole of explaining every little detail with unknowns. Example, the whole group minus the 2yuris could have been present at the shelter caring for the injured and Igor attempted to reach the tent first. After Igor failing to return, the other two could have made the attempt and found Igor dead along the way.... Could explain reports of him being turned over.
Another example is... The case files describe fairly hefty branches being half burned in the fire pit. Looking at the tree, the branches missing fit the bill. Im not convinced anyone was climbing the tree for any other reason other then to retrieve firewood from dead branches. Its even harder to keep a fire going under those conditions with green wet wood, if not impossible. Remember, all the suitable fallen dead wood was likely covered by the snow and also soaked to the core.
There is plenty of evidence suggesting they were murdered, but similar to any other theory, I think its a loosing battle attempting to rationalize and explain every tiny detail. Thats kinda why the BL theory IMHO is stuck in the mud.
I don't claim to have all the answers
Gotta admit she has some really good points. I don't know if it was murder from within or by outsiders, or if it was BL. I just have a very low tolerance for BS and bullies.
I do however believe the eyes and tongue were missing from natural causes... She was rotted and thawed out face down in a creek.
As far as it goes with Yuri Yudin not recognizing an article of clothing.... I found this. Its from his 'interrogation?'... Yup, even he was questioned.
"The collected money was bought: food and various things and equipment needed in the trek, as a first-aid kit, notebooks, pencils, materials for warming tents, etc., I do not remember everything. Backpacks, skis, boots, tent, ice ax and other equipment were received at the Institute."
There you have it.... "I do not remember everything" when talking about their gear, supplies etc.
Nigel - See the part about the piece of "soldier garb" that had been taken out of evidence. And it was the military that closed that particular site for 3 years.
This is an EXCELLENT write and theory & I believe every single word of it.
Ian 13-08-2016 14:11 (GMT)
These were young people full of life and ability, who would have brought a lot of good into the world if they had been able to live out their natural lifetimes. The sheer tragedy of this story hasn’t allowed it to leave my mind for days. At least for me, trying to put together a rational explanation of the events brings a little bit of closure. I’m not saying that the hypothetical scenario that follows is what happened, but I do think it fits all of the available evidence. What do you think?
Sometime during the day or evening of Feb 1st, the Dyatlov group encountered a clandestine testing or training operation perhaps involving jets or rockets (This would explain the reports of glowing orange lights and the military debris in the area later noted by YY). It wasn’t the type of situation where there was a fear of the hikers leaking photographs of a secrete weapon (their cameras would have simply been confiscated). For some reason, the group itself came to be perceived as the threat.
The group’s journal records that as they were traveling towards the beginning point of their hike, they sometimes sung anti-revolution songs that could have landed them in jail. They twice had scrapes with authorities on their trip (once for singing). Also from the journal, it appears that they enjoyed free and open debates about a variety of topics. Later, out in the woods hundreds of km from the nearest settlement (journal entry), they probably would have felt even greater freedom in such expressions. Entering into the area of an ongoing operation may have brought them under surveylence, perhaps without their knowledge. An overheard song or a frank debate about politics, combined with their chance-but-perceived-as-“suspicious” presence in a sensitive area, caused them to be viewed as subversive.
They camped that night on open high ground. When one of the members, perhaps SZ or NYB, stepped outside to relieve himself, if it was clear, his flashlight would have been visible for a long distance, alerting anyone in the area who might not have already been aware of their tent’s precise location. Minutes later, as the group was finishing dinner and drying out their clothes, a small armed detachment arrived at the tent. Whoever it was (I’ll call them “soldiers”) knocked the tent down, fired a few rounds into the air, and ordered the hikers outside or they would be shot. (Supposedly, there were no footprints other than the Dyaltov party’s at the tent, but how could one tell? Surely the Dyaltov group made many boot prints when they set up camp, obviously the rescuers were wearing boots days later when they got to the tent. At first no one suspected it could be a crime scene. It is not just possible but probable that a couple extra pairs of footprints at the tent would have gone unnoticed).
Unexpected gunfire and barking orders would have sent a momentary jolt of fear into even these level-headed travelers. Members of the group who had pocket knives at hand quickly cut through the tent to get everyone outside before the threat was carried out. The multiple cuts in the tent were created in the panic and confusion of exiting a wriggling collapsed tent cover in the dark.
The soldiers wanted to neutralize the hikers, but to leave bullet holes or other obvious wounds would have eventually led to strong demands for an explanation from the community. The soldiers chose to expose them to the cold. Under some guise, the soldiers told the Dyatlov group that they had to leave the area immediately. With great presence of mind, the group leader, ID grabbed a flashlight and his heavy coat as he was leaving the tent. He was immediately ordered to leave them behind, setting the flashlight on the tent, and throwing his coat down, near the spot where he had exited (It’s difficult to conceive of another logical scenario that would explain these objects being found where they were).
The Dyaltov party was followed, but not very far. (Their being followed some distance would explain the heeled boot track found among their own tracks as they headed down slope - No one in the group was wearing such boots at this time). They dropped a lit flashlight on the way, either because they were ordered to do so, or in hopes of using it as a beacon to direct them back to the tent if the soldiers left.
Poorly clothed, in extreme cold, and possibly in the dark, these resilient people covered half the distance that they traveled in their entire day’s hike, to arrive at the nearest tree line. This probably took quite a bit of time, and they knew that with their level of exposure the clock was against them. They set up a small base camp under a pine tree, just out of site of the tent, and together built an emergency fire (an impressive feat with frozen wood, in the cold, with no gloves, and possibly in the dark). Afraid that the soldiers were still at the tent, and unsure if they would pursue, YD and YK were posted near the fire to keep a lookout for the soldiers’ approach. (This would explain why branches were broken off so high up in the tree on the side of the tent, when other branches would have been easier to obtain.) Perhaps they kept a lookout from up in the tree as long as they could. Many or all of the injuries on these two individuals were from exposed hands getting frost bite in the tree, eventually leading to them falling out.
The rest of the group proceeded to build a shelter in a protected area, near, but out of site of the lookout tree. The small fire of frozen wood was not enough to keep the injured YD, and YK warm. Even though they burned parts of their numb extremities, they fell asleep. Either someone in the group was with them, or came back to them, showing care and respect by placing the bodies next to each other. The outer clothes, no longer of any use to the deceased, were removed. At this point, the shelter was not yet finished, because some of their clothing was incorporated into it. The survivors did their best to stay warm in the shelter, but were dangerously cold and heartbroken over the deaths.
Shortly before dawn, the soldiers returned to make sure no one was left to tell the tale. They discovered the shelter, and a hand-to-hand fight ensued. (This would explain many’s of the group’s injuries, including the bruised metacarples on ID and RS, RS’s concussion, and the baton bruise on ZK.) Exhausted and freezing, the group was now no match for their assailants even without the use of their guns).
ID, RS, and ZK managed to break free into the darkness. They made a run for the tent, desperate for the axes or anything to help their friends. (Such a level of desperation would explain why they left the group, the shelter, and the fire, when they were so close to freezing that they could only go a few hundred more yards). ZK, a strong and brave young woman came the closest to making it.
As for the group that was left, the soldiers pressed LD and SZ to death, broke YK’s neck, and crushed TBS’s skull, neutralizing them without leaving any obvious weapon mark. (Such a grim scenario would explain the types of injuries sustained by the party members found in the ravine - crushed chests with none of the external cuts or arm injuries that would have certainly happened in a fall, explain why they were all found outside of their nearby shelter, explain the fragment of soldier’s garb found in the ravine, and explain why it was subsequently taken out of evidence). The autopsies of these group members were the most vague, because the coroners had no choice. More detail would have raised still more questions from the community and gotten them in official hot water.
It is significant that YY, who was a part of the group, knew the Dyatlov party’s circumstances better than any living person, and saw all or most of the original evidence, thought that the military had something to do with his friend’s deaths. In 2008, 6 of the original rescuers and a team of 31 experts came to the similar conclusion that military testing was involved. The official report was that the Dyatlov group died at the hands of an “unknown compelling force”. How could words come closer to summarizing the above, without implicating the party responsible? This may also explain why the military closed the area for the following three years.
Any thoughts?
This guy should write a book. His theory is the best thus far. Great job Ian!!
I look forward to reading it. THX again
That particular site in the Ural Mountains was CLOSED to, supposedly, everyone for 3 years.
They sealed the files and all the information & kept it all a secret for THIRTY YEARS. That's 3 decades = long time.
They did not investigate this for long. They were told to CLOSE it & they soon did.
It's only been since what? the 90's that it all FINALLY came to light & for people in the U.S. of A. to become aware of it also.
I don't see how you can argue a "cover up" with those 3 facts stated above. Far less things have been done in cover ups. I have no problem believing cops can be "dirty" & will do whatever told if the money's good.
When something is covered up, hushed up, file sealed and closed, for THIRTY years, you might guess some kind of "cover up" is going on.
Right now I"m reading in the 2016 & have found quite an interesting post by Ian, who believes they were also murdered by "soldiers".
I'm still in the middle of it.
I think you are blind to the obvious.
So lets just walk through this, this is Soviet Russia a country famous for putting millions of people in the gulags just for criticising the state, a false word could get you 20 years. But here we have a large investigative effort, a police team and a kgb team being supplied for months by helicopters.
All of that to pretend that it wasn't a state coverup? To maintain a deception? I don't think so, the coverup theory just doesn't fit this.
We know there was a cover up since they closed the cases right away, wouldn't let anyone go there for 3 yrs. & kept the files hidden for 30 yrs.?? Perhaps the detective & the pathologist were told what to write & say. Maybe they were offered a great deal of money to write & say what they did. I don't think your 2 questions are important & have nothing to do with nine people's injuries looking as if most of them were beaten & the defensive wounds almost from all show they TRIED to fight back but none of them stood a chance against "the criminals/murderers".
Why do you think an experienced police detective who saw everything first hand wrt the DPI doesn't agree with you? Surely it would be in his regular experience to deal with violence, murder etc?
Why doesn't an experienced pathologist agree with you?
Your BL can remove a tongue, take out 2 sets of eyeballs, snap a neck making it deformed, crush chests, crush 3 skulls, one on both sides over & over, break ribs (in Luda's case, almost ALL her ribs on BOTH sides), whack the back of one hiker like a baton, causing her to have a big bruise across her backside & due to the injury, hypothermia set in more quickly.
They just about ALL had skinned knuckles, abrasions to both hands, as if they'd been in a FIGHT. None of them have any signs of being hit by a ball of lightening, fireballs or whatever else is involved in your non-sensical BL theory.
Your BL made them WALK single file down a snowy slope without winter attire to freeze to death? If I was completely terrorized that I would leave a tent in -'20 degree weather without any coat/boots/gloves, I wouldn't be WALKING away from the tent.
It seems as if you entertain no other theories except trying to ram this ridiculous BL theory down our throats here. I honestly can't get this BL of any SORT killing all 9 of these hikers.
I'm not saying this BL doesn't exist, I believe it does and you've certainly proven that by all your links & obsession on your lightening balls/fire balls. It's.absurd.
Here's the problem: There.were.NINE.of.them.
NO WAY NOW or any time, will any kind of fireballs, lightening balls, balls of light, ever KILL
a bunch of people. There is nothing in history of this killing off a big GROUP of people with injuries such as the 9. It's not feasible.
You should at least read D.O.T.T. At least it can match all the injuries & offer a great solution as to why they left in taking their time & in like a single file.
(Phys.org)—Sightings of ball lightning have been made for centuries around the world – usually the size of a grapefruit and lasting up to twenty seconds
Read more at: https://phys.org/news/2012-10-mystery-ball-lightning.html#jCp
https://phys.org/news/2012-10-mystery-ball-lightning.html
.........................................
The existence of ball lightning has been hard to confirm by scientists due to the lack of verifiable observations and photographs of the phenomenon. Few will completely deny that ball lightning exists, but those that believe that ball lightning does occur in natural circumstances have not yet been able to formulate conclusive theories.
http://stormhighway.com/bl.php
............................................
Ball lightning, also called globe lightning, a rare aerial phenomenon in the form of a luminous sphere that is generally several centimeters in diameter. It usually occurs near the ground during thunderstorms, in close association with cloud-to-ground lightning. It may be red, orange, yellow, white, or blue in colour and is often accompanied by a hissing sound and distinct odour. It normally lasts only a few seconds
https://www.britannica.com/science/ball-lightning
...........................................
a phenomenon known as “ball lightning”. According to eyewitness reports they last for several seconds, moving through the air before eventually exploding.
https://medium.com/looking-up/ball-lightning-b594b6ffea37
.........................................
The numerous accounts of ball lightning – in the past three centuries there have been over 2,000 reports – are contradictory: Observations describe mostly yellowish to reddish balls of up to 20 centimeters in diameter. Their appearance is often attributed to a lightning strike during a thunderstorm. They last for seconds to minutes and vanish quietly or with a bang
https://www.ipp.mpg.de/2977926/kugelblitze
.........................................
A short-lived glowing ball sometimes observed to float in the air and thought to consist of ionized gas associated with thunderstorms.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ball_lightning
.........................................
3. Lifetime
Ball lightnings generally have a lifetime of less than 5 seconds. A small fraction of reports indicate a lifetime of over a minute.
http://wiki.wunderground.com/index.php/Educational_-_Ball_lightning
.........................................
Ball lightning looks like a floating glowing fuzzy ball of light, usually a few inches to a few feet in diameter. It floats or moves around rooms, airplanes, open areas – and occasionally through solid objects. It usually lasts for a few seconds or, rarely, minutes
https://evanhahn.com/ball-lightning/
..................................................................
I never said it didn't exist, It just does not have the magical properties SOME attribute to it unless they are playing a VIDEO GAME (where it is quite common). Nothing that would cause a group of 8 seasoned hikers to destroy their tent while leaving the other contents inside in reasonable order,
all the while forgetting their shoes and warm clothing in -20f weather to WALK a mile, only to be followed by the ball lightning to the cedar tree where it reins death and destruction, then on to the ravine for more death and destruction!
Dead birds in photo.... You didn't expect the rescue team to not eat dinner did you? Wow, and this turns inyo 'dead birds everywhere'.
The green cap... Yeah, if you cannot see the FACT its describing the KNOWN HAT found with the sock at the cedar, you need a lesson in common sense. We know these two items existed. You just don't want real evidence and facts to show BL did NOT cause those burns.
Read the damn case files... All else is pure speculation with a side order of made up wonderland crap.
https://sites.google.com/site/hibinaud/
There was a flask of alcohol in the tent which is unlikely to have survived the heating you're suggesting. I think it was more modest.
"dead birds"
Listed under the same section as burnt treetops, warm spot, "rays of warmth" etc.... Right there in the Fireball category without melting anything because it NOW selectively targets objects above a certain height from the ground to be burned etc.
Show me the investigation photographs of these things, or they simply do not exist!
I too would like to see any photos of "burnt tree tops" could never find any mention of photos / but --- dead birds --- from : http://www.viafanzine.jor.br/site_vf/pag/5/dyatlov_part04.htm
"3) Dead birds."
"First responders noticed a large number of dead birds, mainly white ptarmigans, in the forest area where hikers were hiding: in the vicinity of the cedar and the ravine. Consequently, the impact of a deadly force on living organisms would have occurred."
--- this quote is followed by a PHOTO of a rescuer holding two dead birds -- doesn't say much else. To see it go about 1/2 way down the page.
PREFERENCES
Twain M. Letter to an unidentified pawn. 1908.
Anon. Maas of fire falls into sea. Scirnce 5:24’2, 20 March 1885,
Anon. Electrical phenomena near Weymouth. Nature 1~262, 16 August 1990.
Cawkell A E. Personal communication, 4 February 1976,
Cade C M. Thunderbolts as the Xweapon. Dticovery 2S:23, November 1962.
Argyle E. Ball lightning as an optical illusion. Nature 2S0: 179.80, 1971,
Hill E L. Ball lightning. American Scierrtid 58:479, 1970.
Charman N. The enigma of ball lightning. New Scientist 566 S2-35, 1972.
Altschuler M D. Is ball lightning a nuclear phenomenon? Nature 228:545.46, 1970.
Ashby D E T F. & Wbitehead C. Is ball lightning caused by antimatter mcteorim?
Nature 230:180.82, 1971.
Altschuler M D. Atmsopheric electricity and plasma inte~retations of UFOS, In: Scienh~ic
studyof unidentified Jfying obJ”ects, cd. by E.U. Con&n (New York: E.P. Dutton,
1969), Chapter 7. pp. 72 S-55.
Uman M A. Some comments on ball lightning. J ,4tmosph Ten Phys 301245-46,
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Cttvington A E. Ball lightning. Nature 226:252.55, 1970.
Blair A J F. Magnetic fields, ball lightning, and campanology. Nature 243:512, 1973.
Kapiras P L. [The nature of globe lightning.] Dokl. Ahud. Nauk SSSR 101:245, 1955.
Kapitaa P L. A thermonuclear reactor with a plasma filament freely floating in a hi~hfrequcncy
fteld. Sou. Phys JETP 31:199, 1970.
Tompkhas D R Jr., Rodney P F & Goading R. A theory of ball lightning, Bull.
Amer Phys. Sot. 20:659, 1975
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Nigel : Nearly all BL accounts have witnesses else you wouldn't have a report?
I must of missed them. Name me some and the names of the dead. (verifiable)
OK - here's a few -- not that you'd even know how to "verify" them .......
Historical accounts[edit]
It has been suggested that ball lightning could be the source of the legends that describe luminous balls, such as the mythological Anchimayen from Argentinean and Chilean Mapuche culture.
In a 1960 study, 5% of the population of the Earth reported having witnessed ball lightning.[7][8] Another study analyzed reports of 10,000 cases.[7][9]
M. l'abbe de Tressan, in Mythology compared with history: or, the fables of the ancients elucidated from historical records:
… during a storm which endangered the ship Argo, fires were seen to play round the heads of the Tyndarides, and the instant after the storm ceased. From that time, those fires which frequently appear on the surface of the ocean were called the fire of Castor and Pollux. When two were seen at the same time, it announced the return of calm; when only one, it was the presage of a dreadful storm. This species of fire is frequently seen by sailors, and is a species of ignis fatuus. (page 417)
This account, however, shares more commonalities with the St. Elmo's fire phenomenon.[original research?]
Great Thunderstorm of Widecombe-in-the-Moor[edit]
Another early description was reported during the Great Thunderstorm at a church in Widecombe-in-the-Moor, Devon, in England, on 21 October 1638. Four people died and approximately 60 were injured when, during a severe storm, an 8-foot (2.4 m) ball of fire was described as striking and entering the church, having nearly destroyed it. Large stones from the church walls were hurled into the ground and through large wooden beams. The ball of fire allegedly smashed the pews and many windows, and filled the church with a foul sulfurous odour and dark, thick smoke.
The ball of fire reportedly divided into two segments, one exiting through a window by smashing it open, the other disappearing somewhere inside the church. The explanation at the time, because of the fire and sulfur smell, was that the ball of fire was "the devil" or the "flames of hell". Later, some blamed the entire incident on two people who had been playing cards in the pew during the sermon, thereby incurring God's wrath.[1]
The Catherine and Mary[edit]
In December 1726 a number of British newspapers printed an extract of a letter from John Howell of the sloop Catherine and Mary:
As we were coming thro’ the Gulf of Florida on 29th of August, a large ball of fire fell from the Element and split our mast in Ten Thousand Pieces, if it were possible; split our Main Beam, also Three Planks of the Side, Under Water, and Three of the Deck; killed one man, another had his Hand carried of [sic], and had it not been for the violent rains, our Sails would have been of a Blast of Fire.[10][11]
The Montague[edit]
One particularly large example was reported "on the authority of Dr. Gregory" in 1749:
Admiral Chambers on board the Montague, 4 November 1749, was taking an observation just before noon...he observed a large ball of blue fire about three miles distant from them. They immediately lowered their topsails, but it came up so fast upon them, that, before they could raise the main tack, they observed the ball rise almost perpendicularly, and not above forty or fifty yards from the main chains when it went off with an explosion, as great as if a hundred cannons had been discharged at the same time, leaving behind it a strong sulphurous smell. By this explosion the main top-mast was shattered into pieces and the main mast went down to the keel.
Five men were knocked down and one of them very bruised. Just before the explosion, the ball seemed to be the size of a large mill-stone.[2]
Georg Richmann[edit]
A 1753 report depicts ball lightning as having been lethal when professor Georg Richmann of Saint Petersburg, Russia, created a kite-flying apparatus similar to Benjamin Franklin's proposal a year earlier. Richmann was attending a meeting of the Academy of Sciences when he heard thunder and ran home with his engraver to capture the event for posterity. While the experiment was under way, ball lightning appeared and travelled down the string, struck Richmann's forehead and killed him. The ball had left a red spot on Richmann's forehead, his shoes were blown open, and his clothing was singed. His engraver was knocked unconscious. The door frame of the room was split and the door was torn from its hinges.[12]
HMS Warren Hastings[edit]
An English journal reported that during an 1809 storm, three "balls of fire" appeared and "attacked" the British ship HMS Warren Hastings. The crew watched one ball descend, killing a man on deck and setting the main mast on fire. A crewman went out to retrieve the fallen body and was struck by a second ball, which knocked him back and left him with mild burns. A third man was killed by contact with the third ball. Crew members reported a persistent, sickening sulfur smell afterward.[13][14]
Ebenezer Cobham Brewer[edit]
Ebenezer Cobham Brewer, in his 1864 US edition of A Guide to the Scientific Knowledge of Things Familiar, discussed "globular lightning". He describes it as slow-moving balls of fire or explosive gas that sometimes fall to the earth or run along the ground during a thunderstorm. He said that the balls sometimes split into smaller balls and may explode "like a cannon".[15]
Wilfrid de Fonvielle[edit]
In his book Thunder and Lightning,[16] translated into English in 1875, French science writer Wilfrid de Fonvielle wrote that there had been about 150 reports of globular lightning:
Globular lightning seems to be particularly attracted to metals; thus it will seek the railings of balconies, or else water or gas pipes etc, It has no peculiar tint of its own but will appear of any colour as the case may be ... at Coethen in the Duchy of Anhalt it appeared green. M. Colon, Vice-President of the Geological Society of Paris, saw a ball of lightning descend slowly from the sky along the bark of a poplar tree; as soon as it touched the earth it bounced up again, and disappeared without exploding. On 10th of September 1845 a ball of lightning entered the kitchen of a house in the village of Salagnac in the valley of Correze. This ball rolled across without doing any harm to two women and a young man who were here; but on getting into an adjoining stable it exploded and killed a pig which happened to be shut up there, and which, knowing nothing about the wonders of thunder and lightning, dared to smell it in the most rude and unbecoming manner.
The motion of such balls is far from being very rapid – they have even been observed occasionally to pause in their course, but they are not the less destructive for all that. A ball of lightning which entered the church of Stralsund, on exploding, projected a number of balls which exploded in their turn like shells.[17]
Tsar Nicholas II[edit]
Tsar Nicholas II, the last Emperor of Russia, reported witnessing what he called "a fiery ball" while in the company of his grandfather, Tsar Alexander II: "Once my parents were away," recounted the Tsar, "and I was at the all-night vigil with my grandfather in the small church in Alexandria. During the service there was a powerful thunderstorm, streaks of lightning flashed one after the other, and it seemed as if the peals of thunder would shake even the church and the whole world to its foundations. Suddenly it became quite dark, a blast of wind from the open door blew out the flame of the candles which were lit in front of the iconostasis, there was a long clap of thunder, louder than before, and I suddenly saw a fiery ball flying from the window straight towards the head of the Emperor. The ball (it was of lightning) whirled around the floor, then passed the chandelier and flew out through the door into the park. My heart froze, I glanced at my grandfather – his face was completely calm. He crossed himself just as calmly as he had when the fiery ball had flown near us, and I felt that it was unseemly and not courageous to be frightened as I was. I felt that one had only to look at what was happening and believe in the mercy of God, as he, my grandfather, did. After the ball had passed through the whole church, and suddenly gone out through the door, I again looked at my grandfather. A faint smile was on his face, and he nodded his head at me. My panic disappeared, and from that time I had no more fear of storms."[18]
Aleister Crowley[edit]
British occultist Aleister Crowley reported witnessing what he referred to as "globular electricity" during a thunderstorm on Lake Pasquaney[19] in New Hampshire in 1916. He was sheltered in a small cottage when he "noticed, with what I can only describe as calm amazement, that a dazzling globe of electric fire, apparently between six and twelve inches (15–30 cm) in diameter, was stationary about six inches below and to the right of my right knee. As I looked at it, it exploded with a sharp report quite impossible to confuse with the continuous turmoil of the lightning, thunder and hail, or that of the lashed water and smashed wood which was creating a pandemonium outside the cottage. I felt a very slight shock in the middle of my right hand, which was closer to the globe than any other part of my body."[20]
R.C. Jennison[edit]
Jennison, of the Electronics Laboratory at the University of Kent, described his own observation of ball lightning:
I was seated near the front of the passenger cabin of an all-metal airliner (Eastern Airlines Flight EA 539) on a late night flight from New York to Washington. The aircraft encountered an electrical storm during which it was enveloped in a sudden bright and loud electrical discharge (0005 h EST, March 19, 1963). Some seconds after this a glowing sphere a little more than 20 cm in diameter emerged from the pilot's cabin and passed down the aisle of the aircraft approximately 50 cm from me, maintaining the same height and course for the whole distance over which it could be observed.[21]
Other accounts[edit]
Ball lightning entering via the chimney (1886)On 30 April 1877, a ball of lightning entered the Golden Temple at Amritsar, India, and exited through a side door. Several people observed the ball, and the incident is inscribed on the front wall of Darshani Deodhi.[22]
On 22 November 1894, an unusually prolonged instance of natural ball lightning occurred in Golden, Colorado, which suggests it could be artificially induced from the atmosphere. The Golden Globe newspaper reported, "A beautiful yet strange phenomenon was seen in this city on last Monday night. The wind was high and the air seemed to be full of electricity. In front of, above and around the new Hall of Engineering of the School of Mines, balls of fire played tag for half an hour, to the wonder and amazement of all who saw the display. In this building is situated the dynamos and electrical apparatus of perhaps the finest electrical plant of its size in the state. There was probably a visiting delegation from the clouds, to the captives of the dynamos on last Monday night, and they certainly had a fine visit and a roystering game of romp."[23]
On 22 May 1901 in the Kazakh city of Ouralsk in the Russian Empire (now Oral, Kazakhstan), "a dazzlingly brilliant ball of fire" descended gradually from the sky during a thunderstorm, then entered into a house where 21 people had taken refuge, "wreaked havoc with the apartment, broke through the wall into a stove in the adjoining room, smashed the stove-pipe, and carried it off with such violence that it was dashed against the opposite wall, and went out through the broken window". The incident was reported in the Bulletin of the Societe astronomique de France the following year.[24]
In July 1907 the Cape Naturaliste Lighthouse in Western Australia was hit by ball lightning. Lighthouse keeper Patrick Baird was in the tower at the time and was knocked unconscious. His daughter Ethel recorded the event.[25]
An early fictional reference to ball lightning appears in a children's book set in the 19th century by Laura Ingalls Wilder.[26] The books are considered historical fiction, but the author always insisted they were descriptive of actual events in her life. In Wilder's description, three separate balls of lightning appear during a winter blizzard near a cast iron stove in the family's kitchen. They are described as appearing near the stovepipe, then rolling across the floor, only to disappear as the mother (Caroline Ingalls) chases them with a willow-branch broom.[27]
Pilots in World War II described an unusual phenomenon for which ball lightning has been suggested as an explanation. The pilots saw small balls of light moving in strange trajectories, which came to be referred to as foo fighters.
Submariners in WWII gave the most frequent and consistent accounts of small ball lightning in the confined submarine atmosphere. There are repeated accounts of inadvertent production of floating explosive balls when the battery banks were switched in or out, especially if mis-switched or when the highly inductive electrical motors were mis-connected or disconnected. An attempt later to duplicate those balls with a surplus submarine battery resulted in several failures and an explosion.[28]
On 6 August 1944, a ball of lightning went through a closed window in Uppsala, Sweden, leaving a circular hole about 5 centimeters (2.0 in) in diameter. The incident was witnessed by residents in the area, and was recorded by a lightning strike tracking system[29] on the Division for Electricity and Lightning Research at Uppsala University.[30]
In 1954 Domokos Tar, a physicist, observed a lightning strike during a heavy thunderstorm.[31][32] A single bush was flattened in the wind. Some seconds later a speedy rotating ring (cylinder) appeared in the shape of a wreath. The ring was about 5 meters (16 ft) away from the lightning impact point. The ring's plane was perpendicular to the ground and in full view of the observer. The outer/inner diameters were about 60 and 30 centimeters (24 and 12 in) respectively. The ring rotated quickly about 80 cm (31 in) above the ground. It was composed of wet leaves and dirt and rotated counter clockwise. After seconds the ring became self-illuminated turning increasingly red, then orange, yellow and finally white. The ring (cylinder) at the outside was similar to a sparkler.[33] In spite of the rain, many electrical high voltage discharges could be seen.[34] After some seconds, the ring suddenly disappeared and simultaneously the ball lightning appeared in the middle. Initially the ball had only one tail and it rotated in the same direction as the ring. It was homogeneous and showed no transparency. In the first moment the ball hovered motionless, but then began to move forward on the same line with a constant speed of about 1 metre per second (3.3 ft/s). It was stable and travelled at the same height in spite of the heavy rain and strong wind. After moving about 10 m (33 ft) it suddenly disappeared without any noise.
On 10 July 2011, during a powerful thunderstorm, a ball of light with a two-metre (6 ft 7 in) tail went through a window to the control room of local emergency services in Liberec, Czech Republic. The ball bounced from window to the ceiling, then to the floor and back to the ceiling, where it rolled along it for two or three meters. Then it dropped to the floor and disappeared. The staff present in the control room were frightened, smelled electricity and burned cables and thought something was burning. The computers froze (not crashed) and all communications equipment was knocked out for the night until restored by technicians. Aside from damages caused by disrupting equipment, only one computer monitor was destroyed.[35]
On Dec 15th 2014, flight BE-6780 (Saab 2000) in the UK experienced ball lightning in the forward cabin just before lightning struck the aircraft nose.[36]
not that you read but here's something you ought to try and read (its short - don't worry):
from: http://www.garfield.library.upenn.edu/essays/v2p479y1974-76.pdf
Thunder is good, thunder is impressive; but it is
lightning that does the work. --Mark Twainl
Lightning has always terrified and fascinated people. It has also inspired many myths and much superstition. For example, some misinformed people righteously assert that lightning never strikes twice in the same place. Actually, the odds for lightning hitting twice in the same spot are excellent. The conditions that attracted it in the first place--a protninence in a flat area, for example--are likely to attract it again. The Greeks and Remans thought thunderbolts were weapons of the gods. Since scientists have now explained ordinary streak lightning as a high-voltage electrical discharge, people’s fascination has been transferred to the other forms of lightning: sheet lightning, in which no single bolt is visible; St. Elmo’s fire, a glow emitted by charged objects such as airplane wings; and ball lightning (also called ‘‘Kugelblitz’ ‘). Ball lightning is usually described as a moving, luminous sphere which lasts a few seconds and then dies out, either silently or explosively. Ball lightning is probably the most mysterious lightning phenomenon because scientists have utterly failed to explain it. Many researchers have viewed reports of ball lightning with the kind of skepticism and distaste usually reserved for reports of psi phenomena and UFOS. Until recently, scientists even debated the existence of ball lightning--explaining it as hallucination, optical illusion, or observer hysteria. The only evidence for it was anecdotal, mainly from amateur sightings. But reports of ball lightning have appeared in the scientific press for over a century. In 188S, science published this account by a ship’s captain named Waters: “All at once a large mass of fire appeared over the vessel, completely blindlng the spectators; and, as it fell into the sea some fifty yards to leeward, it caused a hissing sound, which was heard above the blast, and made the vessel quiver from stem to stem.”2 In 1930, an anonymous account in Nature reported that “a number of globes of light were seen of the size of billiard balls, extending from a few inches
above the surface to a height of 7-8 feet. They slowly rose and fell vertically, sometimes within a few inches of the observers but always eluding the grasp.”3 It is always pleasant for me to demonstrate the creative use of information retrieval. The ball lightning phenomenon, with its combination of mystery and possible utility, is just such an opportunity. I hope that the new generation of science teachers will use the information retrieval techniques described here to get students interested in tracing the history of other scientific discoveries. By using the Science Citation tndefl in this way, students can feel the excitement of discovery as the threads of scientific cloth are unraveled. According to the results of a search by my versatile colleague, A.E. Cawkell,4 an article with the incredL ble title “Thunderbolts as the X-Weapon” appeared in November 1%2 in the now defunct journal Diseavery. The paper, by C. M. Cade, contained this account of an attempt to calculate the energy of ball lightning: “A fireball ‘the size of a large orange’ which was observed in Dorstone, Hereford, on October 3rd, 1936, fell into a water butt containing about four gallons of water, which tilled for some minutes, and 20 minutes later was still too hot for the human hand. From this data, Professor B.L. Goodlet has calculated that the minimum energy of this fireball was 3,800 kilowatt-seconds....”5 Unfortunately, the author supplies no further reference for the mysterious Professor Goodlet. So the detective work begins. As it turns out, we were unable to find anyone who had ever cited Cade’s paper, at least within the 15 years we’ve compiled the SCF’ . But as I’ve often repeated, a name ms,y be all one needs to begin an SCI search. Goodlet’s papers in the J LEE were cited in 1970 by M.D. Altschuler of the National Center for Atmospheric Research, Boulder, Colors@ in 1971 by E. Argyle of the Dominion Radio Astrophysical Observatory, British Columbia; and again in 1971 by P.C. W. Davies of the Institute of Theoretical Astronomy, Cambridge, England. This is shown in the figure opposite, in which we have provided a selected portion of the now extensive ball lightning literature. In 1971, Argyle drew parallels between ball lightning and visual afterimages: “The behavior and apparent properties of the positive afterimage are strikkgly similar to those of ball lightning. Its shape wiU be the same as that of the exciting source, and it will commonly be described as a ball . . . . Positive afterimages last 2-10 seconds, depending on circumstances, and most lightning balls are reported to have a duration in the same range. Positive afterimages dkappear rather suddenly, as do lightning balls.”6 Argyle dismissed Goodlet’s report that water in a rain barrel had been heated by ball lightning as ‘‘unreliable.” Each explanation advanced for the ball lightning phenomenon is unsatisfactory in some respect. Early explanations held that ball lightning is formed by the combustion of material released by a lightning stroke on its impact with the ground. This material, either particles or gases, might be confined by a vortex, in the same manner as a smoke ring. Edward Hill of the University of Minnesota modified this theory to suggest that when a lightning stroke produces a separation of charges in such a ball of material, miniature lightning strokes occur within the ball. T. Neugebauer postulated that ball lightning consists of dense plasma containing large numbers of free electrons and positive ions. Altschuler and his colleagues suggested that ball lightning may be a nuclear phenomenon involving the production of radioactive products, whose beta-decay would cause a glow in surrounding air molecules. A bizarre but not implausible theory was discussed in the same 19 March 1971 issue of Nature in which Argyle’s “optical illusion” article was published. An article by D. E.T.F. Ashby and C. Whitehead of the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority suggested that ball lightning is caused by antimatter meteorites which annhilate normal matter, creating a luminous ball. Actually, this idea was first proposed by Ahschuler, who wrote in 1969 that “the hypothesis of antimatter meteorites is intriguing. lf a significant amount of antimatter does exist in the universe, it is possible that tiny grains of antimatter might penetrate our galaxy and collide with the earth’s atmosphere. Entering at high speeds, the grain might survive until it reached the troposphere. A fraction of a microgram of antimatter would destroy an equal mass of matter and release many megajoules of energy, perhaps creating luminous spheres.” The antimatter theory was supported when Ashby and Whitehead, using radiation detectors, observed four ‘‘unusual” radiation events. They concluded that, “The radiation events are consistent with the proposed existence of micron-sized particles of antimatter and their duration is similar to that of ball lightning; however, the correlation with thunderstorms is uncertain.” As the ball lightning phenomenon became more scientifically respectable, two particular “events” began to be discussed by many authors. The first was Jennison’s (University of Kent) 1969 report of a lightning ball passing down the central aisle of an aircraft. Since the plane was a tanker with a full load of aviation fuel, one can imagine the observer’s relief when the yellow-white lightning ball ““danced out over the right wing” and disappeared into the night. The second event was Covington’s (National Research Council of Canada) 1970 observations of a drifting lightning ball which demolished the pile of a wharf, and of another lightning ball which emerged from the fireplace in a lakeside house, traveled across the room, and passed through a closed door without causing any damage. Is The two articles by Argyle and Ashby were cited in several letters to journals in 1971. Argyle’s idea that ball lightning is an optical illusion was rebutted by authors who cited their own and other observers’ welldocumented sightings. Ashby’s antimatter notion had a mixed reception. The UFO phenomenon entered the ball lightning story via AkschuIer’s 1969 article in the Condon UFO report, which explained some UFO sightings as ball lightning. The chapter was cited by several authors. As an exercise in demonstrating that all phenomena and disciplines are somehow connected to one another, the ball lightning story has few equals. In 1973, for example, A.J. P. Blair of Germany used a novel method to calculate the magnetic energy in a lightning ball as 1S0 gauss. Nature carried the report, which stated, “In the parish of Samford-Courtney in Devon on October 7, 1811, a sudden darkness came on, and a tire ball fell in the vicinity of the church. The ringers in the belfry, ringing at the time, declared that they never knew the bells go so heavy, and were obliged to desist ringing. Looking down from the belfry into the church, they perceived four fire balls, which suddenly burst, and the church was fdled with fire and smoke, some of which ascended to the tower, where a large beam, on which one of the bells was hung, was broken, and the gudgeon breaking, the bell fell to the floor.There is also a connection to nuclear fusion in the ball lightning story. In a well-cited 1955 article, the Russian physicist Peter Kapitsa proposed that ball lightning results from a standing wave system in the electromagnetic field which accompanies thunderstorms. Windows and chimneys, through which ball lightning is often reported to have travelled, would act as waveguides for these standing waves. Elements of this idea were later used in a Soviet experimental fusion reactor, and stable balls of plasma were produced. Another theory involves focused cosmic-ray particles, and still another postulates that ball lightning is produced by the decay of ordhary lightning in the presence of large amounts of water. The theoretical situation regarding ball lightning still is rather confused. It has not vet been determined whether ball lightning is a single phenomenon or a series of phenomena with diverse origins. No one has succeeded in producing ball lightning in the laboratory, although a few photographs have been reported. Just a year ago, in a search for photographic evidence of ball lightning, two researchers at the University of Wyoming examined over 10,000 Prarie Meteorite Network photographs which contained images of over 100,000 lightning strokes. They reported tindlng six ball lightning ‘‘caddate” events. “In all of the ball candidate events the scenario is the same: an ordinary appearing lightning stroke ends above ground and what appears to be a ball (producing a sequence of images) falls out of it and goes to earth. ” 17 More recently, photographic evidence of an object “which may be similar to some varieties of ball lightning” was reported in September 1975 by three French authors, R. F;eux and C. Gary of Electricity de France, Direction des Etudes et Recherches, and P. Hubert of Commissariats 2 l’Energie Atomique, Service d’Electronique Physique, Centre d’Etudes Nuc16aires de Saclay. In a kind of reenactment of Benjamin Franklin’s kke-and-key lightning experiment, they launched rockets with wires attached into the atmosphere. This technique was developed, they said, “in the hope of perhaps shedding new light on the controversial subject of ball lightning, since according to published statistics ball lightning is mentioned in more than 40% of the cases in which an observer describes a nearby lightning stroke. ” Although these researchers did not observe anything “comparable with the more remarkable tales of ball lightning folklore,” they did observe and photograph the appearance of luminous “beads” during the decay of triggered lightning. “The beads generally have an initial diameter of the order of 40 cm which decreases gradually with a total lifetime of 0.3s at most. During long-lasting strokes, the initially straight channel adopts on a progressively more tortuous shape and the biggest beads occur where tortuousness is a maximum. Since there is a positive correlation between diameter and lifetime, it follows that at the end of the decay there are one or two luminous balls only. In general these objects have an upward motion of 1 or 2 m s -1, which gives an overall picture consistent with the hypothesis of a gradually cooling spheroid of hot gas. ” In the same paper, the authors lend support to the early theory involving combustion of material released from the ground. They note that “light emission occurred at the foot of wooden posts” in the test area. “The light-emitting region was stationary, in contact with the ground at the place where the post enters the earth. Its shape seems roughly spherical with a diameter of about 25 cm . ...” They comment, “It is not surprising that some underground outgassing occurs and that the gasses escape at the point where the posts puncture the uPPer layer. It remains to be decided whether the light comes from hot gases only or from a combustion involving hydrogen or methane, for instance, or from a localized electric discharge mechanism. ” Just a few weeks ago, Mark Stenhoff of the Physics Department of Royal Holloway College reported a case in which a woman touched and was injured by ball lightning. Stenhoff reported in Nature that on 8 August 1975, the woman, who lives in the Midlands area of England, was in her kitchen during a thunderstorm “when a sphere of light appeared over the cooker. The ball twas z 10 cm across and surrounded by a flame-colored halo; its color was bright blue to purple. The ball moved straight towards the witness at an estimated height of 95 cm from the ground. Burning heat was felt, and there was a singeing smell. A sound something like a“rattle was heard.”19 The woman herself reported that, “The ball seemed to hit me below the belt, as it were, and I automatically brushed it from me and it just disappeared. Where 1 brushed it away there appeared a redness and swelling on my left hand. It seemed as if my gold wedding ring was burning into my finger. ” The lightning ball produced a hole in the woman’s dress and underwear at the point where it struck her. Her legs became red and numb. The woman, who had never before heard of ball lightning, felt that the ball exploded just as she touched it. Commenting on this report in a Nature editorial, P.C. W. Davies notes that progress in ball lightning research is hampered by the lack of precise, reliable observational data. He suggests that, “The present unsatisfactory situation would be greatly improved if the aura of mystery and superstition surrounding unusual aerial events were dispelled. Good, detailed eye-witness reports of luminous balls are frequently made by competent ob-, servers such as airline pilots, but are rarely passed on to scientists. Instead, many of them find their way into miiitary tiles, where they are shrouded in a ridiculous secrecy. (Incredibly, the British Ministry of Defence continues to deny scientists access to their accounts of these events. ) With proper cooperation between scientists and the public, particularly the local press, and the civil aircraft authorities, it would be possible to follow up ball lightning reports rapidly, enabling tests for radioactivity and so forth to be carried out. “20 To help clarify the situation, a few individuals have turned their energies to collecting ball lightning rep&-ts. One of these is William Corliss of Glen Arm, Maryland, a consultant to NASA who has compiled Strange Phenomena, Zf a ‘‘sourcebook” which contains abstracts of 75 ball lightning reports. Also notable is the ball lightning bibliography compiled by J.D. Barry of the US Air Force’s Space and Missile Systems Organization, Los Angeles. This bibliography, copies of which are available from the author, cites over 1,100 ball lightning reports and references spanning 3S0 years.22 Another excellent source of information on the scientific history of ball lightning is a book published in 1971, The Nature of Ball Lightning by Stanley Singer, director of Athenex Research Associates, Pasadena, Califomia. According to Singer, Faraday felt that any relation between ball lightning and streak lightning was “more than doubtful, ” and Lord Kelvin held that ball lightning was nothing more than an optical illusion.
Returning to the 1962 article by Cade, we’ve been unable to find any other articles about “X-Weapons.” Maybe the idea was impractical--or maybe the work was so successful that it was classified. What surprises me most about the ball lightning story is the failure of any leading American or Soviet journal to present a comprehensive discussion of this area of research. The state of the literature on ball lightning is similar to Shakespeare’s description of Romeo and Juliet’s love:
It is too rash, too unadvis ‘d,
too sudden:
Too like the lightning; which cloth
cease to be
Ere one can say it lightens.
PREFERENCES
Twain M. Letter to an unidentified pawn. 1908.
Anon. Maas of fire falls into sea. Scirnce 5:24’2, 20 March 1885,
Anon. Electrical phenomena near Weymouth. Nature 1~262, 16 August 1990.
Cawkell A E. Personal communication, 4 February 1976,
Cade C M. Thunderbolts as the Xweapon. Dticovery 2S:23, November 1962.
Argyle E. Ball lightning as an optical illusion. Nature 2S0: 179.80, 1971,
Hill E L. Ball lightning. American Scierrtid 58:479, 1970.
Charman N. The enigma of ball lightning. New Scientist 566 S2-35, 1972.
Altschuler M D. Is ball lightning a nuclear phenomenon? Nature 228:545.46, 1970.
Ashby D E T F. & Wbitehead C. Is ball lightning caused by antimatter mcteorim?
Nature 230:180.82, 1971.
Altschuler M D. Atmsopheric electricity and plasma inte~retations of UFOS, In: Scienh~ic
studyof unidentified Jfying obJ”ects, cd. by E.U. Con&n (New York: E.P. Dutton,
1969), Chapter 7. pp. 72 S-55.
Uman M A. Some comments on ball lightning. J ,4tmosph Ten Phys 301245-46,
1968.
Cttvington A E. Ball lightning. Nature 226:252.55, 1970.
Blair A J F. Magnetic fields, ball lightning, and campanology. Nature 243:512, 1973.
Kapiras P L. [The nature of globe lightning.] Dokl. Ahud. Nauk SSSR 101:245, 1955.
Kapitaa P L. A thermonuclear reactor with a plasma filament freely floating in a hi~hfrequcncy
fteld. Sou. Phys JETP 31:199, 1970.
Tompkhas D R Jr., Rodney P F & Goading R. A theory of ball lightning, Bull.
Amer Phys. Sot. 20:659, 1975
Fieux R, Gary C k Hubert P. Artificially triggered lightning atmve land.
Nature 257:212.14, 1975. 19. Stenhoff M. Ball lightning. Nature 2~5552):596-97, 15 April 1976.
20. Davies P C W. Ball lightning. Nature 260(5552) :57S, 15 April 1976.
$!1. Corlh W R. (compiler) Stra~e PhenomenaGlen Arm, Maryland: Corliss, 1974.
22. Barry J D. Bibliography of ball lightning rcpsa. f Atmo#sh. Terr. Phys. S&1577, 1974.
23. Singer S. The nature OJ ball Itj@tnsisg (New York: Plenum Prcra,1971) 169pp.
24. Shakespeare W. Romeo andJtdiet Act 2, Scene 2.
there you go - read'emandweep !
Tunguska 1908
The explosion released enough energy to kill reindeer and flatten trees for many kilometers around the blast site. But no crater was ever found.
Sounds like ball lightning to me ! 8-)
--- actually, you are right even though you thought you were making a little joke (very little).
The Tunguska explosion was the result of an AIR BURST ! like the proverbial ball lightning you detest --- the hypothesis is that some of the BL can explode in an AIR BURST --- waddiyaknow ..... you and agree on something !
--- you once again missed the point --- not that you can't approximately decipher the meaning --- but that the translator can't even make a sentence --- I POINT OUT THAT YOU SUPPLIED THE VERB MAKING THE SENTENCE MAKE SENSE: "In this case the statement is referring to the cap FOUND on the scene." or conversely it could supply a connective to the previous sentence. such as "and a" So we don't always know if we are interpreting the translator correctly.
re: " don't think the canvas could be tested for microwaves other than showing it's been exposed to heat via water content heating up. "
--- there might be some subtle changes in molecular structure -- of coating, of dyes, of glues, perhaps the canvas -- a thing like flipping the position of a bond and bending a molecule into a different shape would show up. What I don't know is can someone get samples of the original materials that the cloth was treated with --- un-irradiated --- to compare with the tent.
--- any water in / on the tent would flash off at its boiling point (or thereabouts) and so would not heat the molecules (of the other stuff) up enough to cause a change; but a microwave would.
Loose-Cannon 06-09-2017 22:39 (GMT)
KMM... Cotcha, no worries (thumbs up)
YES, please post that link. THX
That was kinda the point in posting it. All kinds of tidbits can be obtained from the original case files. They are actually more thorough then I had previously thought. Do you want me to post the link to the viewable files so you can read the real deal?
LC : Is there something specific here you are pointing out ? besides the part about the green helmet I probably skimmed over in my readings
And LC, I responded to your comment because I thought we could discuss something maybe you had noticed in the "original files.
Boy, was I wrong ,here are the 1st 2 replies I received to a question I had asked :
"sorry if my years if study intimidates you --
that's your problem not mine."
"Once again: read ALL of my posts as I have
already answered many of these questions before"
Didn't take me long to drop to this level
Seems it has to be about BL, the way I see it the BL people have ONLY 2 things to point to, "someone has seen lights in the sky" and what I take to be some damaged or accidental exposures. Everybody has a right to their own opinion. But when you go to attacking me, your going to get it back. (probably not the best way to be)
It seems every comment has to be about the God BL and BL explains EVERYTHING !
It feels like your being indoctrinated into a cult !!!
There ya go... Take your ball and go home because you don't agree with someone while bullying them with names. Simply because you do not like what your hearing doesn't constitute a decline in conversation quality. You Nigel, have just as much part in all this as I do. Its still a free country Nigel, do as you please. BTW... You have posted alot of stuff and its hard to keep track of exactly what you do or do not subscribe to, but I do recall alot of assigning burns to BL.
What clothing articles were burned by the stove?
Search for "concussed or unattended" should be 4 posts most of them recent where i specifically point out the existence of the fire creates ambiguity as to the origin of the burns. The clothing is of course even more ambiguous because (as i've also pointed out) the stove had a habit of burning drying clothing.
I'm considering just not responding to you or KMM anymore because you're just dragging the quality of the conversation into ignorant idiot territory.
We really need a BB where people can filter others out.
You... By default, were the one explaining away burns having 'had' to be made via fireball. They were only 1m away from the fire btw...
"Near the fire, a half-burnt sock and a cowboy shirt were found. In the shirt money - 8 rubles. Semi-burnt helmet of greenish color. North of the fire at a distance of one meter head to the west, legs to the east near the corpses lie in the number of two."
Now, anyone having an issue with the context of these statements is just a full blown retard. If you ever bother to look at the original case files instead of having your head up each others ballsack, you will know what was found where. In this case the statement is referring to the cap found on the scene. Further more it tells the condition of said cap which I will leave to Nigel yo tell you whom it belonged to and why it was burnt and the head/hair was slightly burnt ...... Being found next to a god damn fire that is.
"The right leg is undressed, on the left is a torn brown sock identical to the detected half-burned near the fire."
Well lookie there... The left leg wearing the matching sock to the burnt sock found next to the fire. Interesting to note, Nigel would have one believe "oh they were drying their cloths over a fire for days". Unfortunately... Per the facts, the investigators made no extra mention to the other articles of clothing being burned. Now, you can run around the facts all day long but you know, and I know... That these items were addressed in a spicific condition because the condition was not of the others. In other words, this is NOT regular old drying of clothes.
You have a burned head and cap, you have a burned leg and sock. All next to a FIRE (which had pretty large half burned branches btw). The extent some have gone to twist the burned leg and head into being cosmic rays, BL electrical burns and the like are just plain false. Having the integrity to admit common sense can go a long freaking way is another matter.
Again.... Read the original case files. They are THE ONLY known documented facts we have. No fantastical conjecture required. The facts shown above are basic, and other examples are quite abundant within the evidence if you ditch the tunnel vision for just a moment.
@john. Just stop trolling me and being a baby. Your BL theory is no more important then any of the others, and your not convincing anyone otherwise by posting a buncha crap stating BL exists.
evidence : some people reported seeing a light in the sky!
If anyone has a camera from that period that laid out in the snow and water for 3 months, PLEASE send it to me. How can anyone doubt me with this kind of evidence ?
The explosion released enough energy to kill reindeer and flatten trees for many kilometers around the blast site. But no crater was ever found.
Sounds like ball lightning to me ! 8-)
Why should that stop you, nothing else ever has !
I've read LOTS of witness reports about alien abductions, ghosts, bigfoot, sea monsters, so yeah,............
Donner party ? nope survivors. Definite Indain stories about strange lights
I must of missed them. Name me some and the names of the dead. (verifiable)
@KMM - " You could use BL theory on any group that died with no survivors and no witnesses, but it has never worked where someone has survived. YOU EVER WONDER WHY ? "
Lots of accounts on this site with witnesses. Nearly all BL accounts have witnesses else you wouldn't have a report?
@LC - if it's the burnt clothing the problem here is that they've spent a week drying their clothing on the stove and regularly burning it if the person on watch wasn't attentive. Hence photo of burnt jacket. I'd like to connect the burnt clothing with BL but the stove prevents this.
"What's your "theory" about the snow melted into ice?"
Why does bad translation figure into LCs comment BUT not what you post woofie ??
exactly what does "Semi-burnt helmet of greenish color. " mean ?? Its not even close to a sentence. (not that LC would notice)
or what does : "legs to the east near the corpses lie in the number of two" mean ???
is that clear ?..... or what ? --- I'm going with what. What we know for sure that is --- numerous reports of something like ball lightning, accompanied by reports of explosions --- by numerous people and groups, spanning over a hundred years in time -- IN THAT AREA ! People who had no reason to even know each other existed -- no plot to confuse anyone -- they simply were reporting what they saw and heard -- ball lightning. (or whatever you want to call it) As for people who are just dead set on a murder plot -- put up or shut up -- show us some evidence. You're wasting precious digital space with your malarkey -- show me a decent translation to make sense out of. Otherwise you're just trying to waste our time with BS. What's your "theory" about the snow melted into ice? Yeti with flame-throwers? Martian landing craft ? Any reports of those in the last 100 years ? Do you seriously think the starved-for-cash-Soviet-Government tested some sort of secret weapon which no one has ever heard of (nor ever seen) by killing very expensive students of science and engineering ? ? ? You're out of your nut !
"near the cedar in 2 - 2,5 meters are broken off dry branches. The branches are broken off and on the cedar itself. Under the cedar in the pit found traces of the fire, as evidenced by half-burnt branches. Near the fire, a half-burnt sock and a cowboy shirt were found. In the shirt money - 8 rubles. Semi-burnt helmet of greenish color. North of the fire at a distance of one meter head to the west, legs to the east near the corpses lie in the number of two. Identified: Krivonischenko Yuri Alekseevich face up, wearing a shirt cowboy, torn pants. The head is thrown back, the eyes are closed, the mouth is closed, the lips are compressed, the right hand is thrown behind the head, the left arm is bent, the hand is raised above the chest. The right leg is extended, the left leg is slightly bent at the knees. The right leg is undressed, on the left is a torn brown sock identical to the detected half-burned near the fire."
See anything interesting Nigel??
don't know why they would do this -- does it do same to you ? There could be other stuff its doing so I suggest we boycott that site. --- also its listed under google groups so if anyone knows how to report it to google let me know.
also, Nigel : I've posted that wiki on microwave burns twice (and noted yours) --- I was wondering if, given today's technology what the material of the tent might show -- I wonder what tests we have now that we didn't have in the 1950's -- for instance, could intense microwaves (or other electrical) cause a detectable chemical change in the cloth / dyes / ducking (the waterproofing) that we might look for; maybe with a gas chromatograph, or a mass spectrometer of some sort, including magnetic.
You can thank the arrogant narcissist assmonkey bottom dwelling cheeto-stained wife-beater wearing Mr. I-am-the-authority so don't have a differing opinion or I will conduct myself like a little titty-baby whiny-crybaby pissy-pants toddler.
Heck, the BL theory actually had 'some' credibility before John the Narcissist started ridiculing those who do not lick his toes while he googles fireballs. 99% of the BL discussion has been spent posting needless crap in a self indulging need to prove BL exist. We know it exists you asshat but unfortunately for you, its very existence does NOT in anyway prove jack squat in regards to what happened to the Dyatlov group. All I see here is a narrow-minded echo chamber with a few folks that utterly cannot think outside the box and consider ALL possibilities. Shame really... Perhaps I should start a 'real' forum on my hosted server split into numerous theory sections and completely ban arrogant twits who attempt to bully people out of free thought. Wouldn't be the first time. (thumbs up).
How Narcissists See Themselves
1. I love myself and I know you do, too; in fact, everyone does—I can’t imagine anyone that doesn’t.
2. I have no need to apologize. You, however, must understand, accept, and tolerate me no matter what I do or say.
3. I have few equals in this world, and so far, I have yet to meet one. I am the best (manager, businessman, lover, student, etc. . . .).
4. Most people don’t measure up. Without me to lead, others would flounder.
5. I appreciate that there are rules and obligations, but those apply mostly to you because I don’t have the time or the inclination to abide by them. Besides, rules are for the average person, and I am far above average.
6. I hope you appreciate all that I am and everything that I have achieved for you—because I am wonderful and faultless.
7. I do wish we could be equals, but we are not and never will be. I will remind you with unapologetic frequency that I am the smartest person in the room and how well I did in school, in business, as a parent, etc., and you must be grateful.
8. I may seem arrogant and haughty, and that’s OK with me—I just don’t want to be seen as being like you.
9. I expect you to be loyal to me at all times, no matter what I do; however, don’t expect me to be loyal to you in any way.
10. I will criticize you and I expect you to accept it, but if you criticize me, especially in public, I will come at you with rage. One more thing: I will never forget or forgive, and I will pay you back one way or another—because I am a “wound collector.”
11. I expect you to be interested in what I have achieved and in what I have to say. I, on the other hand am not at all interested in you or in what you have achieved, so don’t expect much curiosity or interest from me about your life. I just don’t care.
12. I am not manipulative; I just like to have things done my way, no matter how much it inconveniences others or how it makes them feel. I actually don’t care how others feel—feelings are for the weak.
13. I expect gratitude at all times, for even the smallest things I do. As for you, I expect you to do as I demand.
14. I only associate with the best people, and frankly, most of your friends don’t measure up.
15. If you would just do what I say and obey, things would be better.
Just pointing out what i said back then :-
"@Rol88 - coming back to you wrt the electrical burns in the tent and there being no sign of burning on the tent or it's contents.
What if their injuries were not electrical burns but microwave burns? - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_burn This explains how they were injured in the tent without any burning elsewhere. The tent fabric would perhaps have got hot but not enough to discolour as it would take longer to heat up being colder and with a covering of snow, the damp cavities within the bamboo pole heated quickly and split it.
Perhaps the radiation was only intense at one end of the tent as the BL passed near, just affecting the pole and two occupants who in effect shielded the others.
Now you have your reason for cutting the tent open and getting everyone out as fast as possible."
Yes the mezoeletric stuff is interesting and the looo.ch site talks of anomolous terrain interfering with radar. Could all be true, but i think given the global reports of UFO activity that this phenomena or something similar can be induced solely by atmospheric effects.
I just googled my favorite term
........... "brainless trolls"
You should look up "Narcissism" and refusing to admit when you are wrong !
........... "brainless trolls"
and got : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHgGG_XzVgY
is he drunk? or just been up all night drinking diet soda's and eating cheato's ?
could not find an entry for @John - see my post - 06-05-2017 12:54 (GMT)
but I did find an interesting site / post -- still reading it:
Loic 06-10-2017 07:49 (GMT)
I've found this website with an interesting explanation of the glowing balls seen in the area :
- natural and massive electrical discharge
Interesting to read
https://sites.google.com/site/mezoelectric/dyatlov-pass-incident-1
Wow, I wish John Pantywaist would show us what his favorite google search term for the day was........wait, never mind.
If that photo had turned up on 1 of the cameras's, you would swear it was evidence of BL
Human body is like 50-65% water. Don't you think it would show internal damage ?
"On July 29, 1977, H.F., a 51-year-old teacher, was attempting to remove a casserole dish from her new 600-watt microwave oven. The oven signaled the end of the heating cycle, but the light and the cooking blower were on. During retrieval of the dish, she inserted two thirds of her bare forearms into the oven, for a total time of about five seconds. The oven was still operating. She felt "hot pulsating sensation" and burning in fingers and fingernails and a sensation of "needles" over the exposed areas. Jabbing pain, swelling, and RED-ORANGE DISCOLORATION of dorsal sides of both hands and forearms appeared shortly afterwards."
--- I don't know if this explains any of the discoloration seen in the 9 hikers --- but it might.
here's the wiki address: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_burn
recall from my previous post -- that there was MELTED SNOW at the tent area for about 20 or 30 meters which turned the snow into ice --- ALSO --- searchers report that various small items of clothing were (blown from the tent area? and) locked into melted snow --- so tell me this --- how did this happen ? How did snow melt into water (and then re-freeze into ice -- in several large, many meters wide spherical patterns ) when it was night in a Siberian blizzard with high winds and snow falling and it was somewhere between minus 20 and minus 30 centigrade ? ... ON A MOUNTAIN SIDE ?
Do any of you know that the way your microwave oven works is largely by heating the water molecules in the food you are cooking/heating. With this in mind -- the microwave damage to skin should be minimal --- unless the skin is WET ! You know, like if you were outside, with exposed skin, in a snowstorm.
inspection Labasa
March 2, 1959 Camp search party in the Upper stream of the river. Auspii Prosecutor prosecutor of the Prosecutor's Office of the Sverdlovsk Region Ivanov, in the presence of the head of the search party, Comrade Maslennikov (Sverdlovsk, Zavodskaya Str. 32), and Slobtsov Boris Efimovich (Sverdlovsk, Lenin Str., 13a, apt. 23) with the 78th CPC pcfsr this protocol is as follows:
On this day, in the upper reaches of the Auspii rivers, under the pass to the Lozvu River, a storage unit (food store) of the Dyatlov group was found. Labaz is located on the site of the group's overnight stay, it is well closed with cooked firewood, covered with cardboard, pine paws. At the store, skis are stuck in the snow, one pair, on the toe of the skis hang torn leggings.
Sheet 9
- 2 -
The following quantity of products was found during the excavation of the storage:
1. Condensed milk 2.5 kg.
2. Meat canned in cans 4 kg.
3. Sugar - 8 kg.
4. Butter - 4 kg.
5. Boiled sausages - 4 kg.
6. Salt - 1,5 kg.
7. Kissel-compote - 3 kg.
8. Oatmeal porridge and buckwheat 7.5 kg.
9. Cocoa 200 g
. 10. Coffee - 200 g.
11. Tea - 200 g
. 12. Koreake - 3 kg.
13. Milk powder - 1 kg.
14. Sugar sand - 3 kg.
15. Rusks - 7 kg and noodles - 5 kg.
16. In addition, it was found: a
mandolin, a pair of shoes 41 size, and in them wearing socks, a pair of warm shoes, a set of fasteners, 2 batteries mounted with a light bulb for lighting.
Sheet 10
- 3 -
According to Blinov, warm boots belong to Dyatlov.
Since the products are not of interest for the investigation, they were transferred to the head of the party, Comrade Maslennikov, as an emergency supply. All the containers from the foodstuffs, as well as the mandolin, 2 pairs of shoes, socks and bindings are withdrawn.
The protocol is read, written correctly.
Maslennikov (signature) Slobtsov (signature)
Prosecutor criminalist ml. counselor of justice Ivanov (signature)
Sheet 233
Protocol No. 1 of the identification of things Krivonischenko
Inventory of things, Sverdlovsk, March 30, 1959
Prosecutor-criminalist of the Prosecutor's Office of the Sverdlovsk region, ml. counselor of justice Ivanov in the presence of witnesses Yudin Yuri Efimovich, student UPI, gr. I-480 and Khamova Galina Nikolaevna, UPI, gr. C-344, presented Krivonischenko Igor Alekseevich - the brother of Krivonischenko, the fugitive GA. personal equipment that is supposed to belong to G. Krivonischenko.
Krivonischenko, after examining the equipment presented, said that his brother, Krivonischenko Georgiy, owned the following items:
1. The backpack is black, old, with long protective-colored belts sewn with black threads.
2. A hood made of blue staple satin.
3. Compass, string, badges "hiker" and "Second Sports category."
4. Mandolin in a white sac.
5. Gauntlets made of decorative fabric.
6. The balaclava is gray.
7. Fur stockings - 1 pair.
8. The blue shirt is burnt.
9. White white shirt, cowboy.
10. Suit-Storm and trousers.
All of the above things Krivonischenko Igor Alex. Identified firmly.
The protocol is recorded correctly. Signatures: 1. Kryvonischenko, 2. Khamov, 3. Yudin.
Prosecutor-criminalist Ivanov (signature).
Sheet 234
Receipt
Me, Krivonischenko I.A. Items listed in this protocol are listed from No. 1 to No. 11. Signed: Krivoyshchenko.
In addition, Krivonischenko I. identified and received an ax, a flask, winter three-fingered gloves. Signed by: Krivonischenko.
In addition, Kivonischenko identified and received a blanket of old, red-brown, cloth, signature (Krivonischenko).
In addition, Krivonischenko identified black felt boots, old ones, sewn with a thick layer of gray koshma. Valenki received on April 7, 1959 Signed (Krivonischenko).
Sheet 235
Protocol of identification of things No. 2, Sverdlovsk, March 30, 1959
Prosecutor criminalist of the Prosecutor's Office of the Sverdlovsk region, ml. Counselor of Justice Ivanov, this date in the presence of witnesses: Yudin Yuri Efimovich, I-480 and Khamova GN, gr. C-344 presented Blinov gr. F-5 personal equipment of dead hikers. Blinov Yu.A., after inspecting the equipment, said that
IA Dyatlov. belongs to the iron stove.
Doroshenko Yu.N. belongs (presumably) a new blue Vigonia sweater (Blinov knows that before leaving for the trek Doroshenko bought some sweater).
Kolevatov A. belong: buckets in the amount of 2 pcs.
The record is correct, the signatures are:
1, Blinov, 2. Khamov, 3. Yudin, Pr-r to Ivanov.
Sheet 236
Protocol of identification of things No. 3, Sverdlovsk, March 30, 1959.
Prosecutor-criminalist of the Prosecutor's Office of the Sverdlovsk Region, ml. counselor of justice Ivanov, this day in the presence of witnesses: Yudin Yuri Efimovich, student of UPT, gr. I-480 and Hamova Galina Nikolaevna, UPI, gr. C-344, presented by Pyatnitskiy Pyatnitsky. - the sister of the deceased IA Dyatlov. Personal equipment, which is supposed to belong to IA Dyatlov. R.Dyatlova having examined the presented equipment, has declared, that its brother - Igor Dyatlov belong the following things:
1. Fur sleeveless,
2. Jacket leather fur.
3. Svitre blue, paper.
4. Mitten black suede.
5. Boots are black, cloth.
6. Compass, glasses with a case, a knife.
7. Panties are black.
8. Winter cap knitted, woolen,
9. Storm.
10. Cowboy.
11. Sharovars, - brown and green.
12. The shirt is blue.
All of the above items Dyatlov RA. identified firmly.
Signatures: 1.Dyatlova, 2. Khamov, 3.Yudin.
Prosecutor-criminalist Ivanov (signature).
Sheet 237
Receipt. By me, Dyatlova R.A. things listed in this protocol are things from 1 to 12 and the stove specified in protocol No. 2. Signed by: Dyatlova.
G. Pervouralsk, Sadovaya, 13, Alexey Alexandrovich Dyatlov. (postscript)
Sheet 238
Protocol of identification of things No. 4, Sverdlovsk, March 30. Prosecutor-criminalist of the prosecutor's office of the Sverdlovsk region, ml. counselor of justice Ivanov, this day in the presence of witnesses: Yudin Yuri Efimovich, student of UPT, gr. I-480 and Hamova Galina Nikolaevna, UPI, gr. C-344, showed Radosteva Galina Grigorievna - student gr. P-462 personal equipment, which is supposed to belong to Kolmogoroy Zina. Радостева, having examined the presented equipment, has curtailed, that Kolmogorova belong the following things:
1. The blouse is woolly variegated.
2. Handkerchief with a hem.
3. Scarf is red woolen.
4. Mittens are blue woolen.
5. Cowboy.
6. T-shirt with a fur collar, with a hood.
7. Storm, canvas. Green. Personal.
8. Black wool socks.
9. Blanket blue from 10 stud. Shells.
10. The gloves are black. Wrapped in green canvas, white socks trimmed with the same.
11. Svitre blue, woolen.
12. Trousers for skiing.
13. Caps red woolen and blue.
14. The cowards are gray.
15. Brown socks are tartan.
16. The trousers are black.
17. Panties are blue, warm.
Sheet 239
All of the above things Radostev recognized firmly.
The record is correct, the signatures:
1, Blinov, 2. Khamov, 3. Yudin, Prosecutor criminologist Ivanov.
Receipt by
me, Radosteva GG, items listed in this protocol are listed from No. 1 to No. 17 and in the report of inspection of things No. 6 (from No. 1 to No. 4).
Signed: Радостева-6 апр. 1959
Sheet 240
Protocol of identification of things № 5, Sverdlovsk, March 30. Prosecutor-criminalist of the Prosecutor's Office of the Sverdlovsk Region, ml. counselor of justice Ivanov, this day in the presence of witnesses: Yudin Yuri Efimovich, student of UPT, gr. I-480 and Hamova Galina Nikolaevna, UPI, gr. C-344, showed Kostrulin Viktor Nikolaevich, Student UPI, gr. R-463 personal equipment Doroshenko Yu.N., which is supposed to belong Doroshenko. Kostrulin VN, after examining the equipment, announced that his friend Doroshenko Yu.N. belong the following things:
1. The trolley is blue.
2. Shaped lamb, which was taken from Kostrulina.
3. Fur sleeveless, which was taken from Gainutdinov Farid, gr. P-463.
4. Fusions blue satin.
5.Noski simple brown.
6. The tank top is green.
7. Cowboy in a large cage "Bulgaria ..." (illegible).
8. Wool knitted socks.
9. Scarf is brown.
10. Blanket woolen, brown, which was taken from 10 stud. Shells.
11. Panties satin blue.
12.Sharovary blue, knitted.
13. Socks.
All of the above items Kostrulin VN. identified firmly.
Signatures: Kostrulina, Hamova, Yudin and Ivanov.
Sheet 241
The protocol is recorded correctly.
Signatures of the
Receipt: By
me, Kostrulin V.N. received items listed in this protocol, No. 2 and 3.
Signature Kostrulina.
Receipt
Me Shulyatevym Vasiliem Andrianovichem obtained listed in this protocol things under № 1, №№ 4, 5, 6, 7,8, 9, 11, 13, 12 and referred to in the protocol № 2 blue sweater to send their enclosure in Aktyubinsk, in the name of Doroshenko Volodya, brother of Yura Doroshenko.
Signature: Шуляев. April 9, 1959
Sheet 242
Protocol of identification of things No. 6, Sverdlovsk, March 31, 1959
Prosecutor-criminalist of the Prosecutor's Office of the Sverdlovsk Region, counselor of justice Ivanov, this day in the presence of witnesses: Yudin Yuri Efimovich, student of UPT, gr. I-480 and Hamova Galina Nikolaevna, UPI, gr. C-344, presented Margarita Alexandrovna Mitrofanova - a friend of Kolmogorova's personal equipment for the trek of Z. Kolmogorova who died.
Mitrofanova MA, having examined the equipment, firmly stated that Z. Kolmogorova belonged to:
1. Black trousers-tights black
2. Bathing suit black.
3. Cases for mittens blue with an elastic band in the number of 2 pcs. (crossed out word "mittens" is omitted)
4. T-shirt blue knitted.
Sheet 243
Prosecutor-criminalist of the Prosecutor's Office of the Sverdlovsk Region, ml. counselor of justice Ivanov, this day in the presence of witnesses: Yudin Yuri Efimovich, student of UPT, gr. I-480 and Hamova Galina Nikolaevna, UPI, gr. C-344, presented the parents of Slobodin Rustik with personal equipment, which is supposed to belong to Slobodin's bastard R.
Samsnova Nadezhda Feodorovna, having examined the equipment presented, she stated that her son owned the following things:
1. Binoculars.
2. The ax.
3. Satin wide trousers.
4 pairs of sock, gray and brown.
5. 2 balaclavors.
6. Towel.
7. Phonemic.
8. One felt boots.
9. The telogram.
10. The blanket is brown, cloth.
All of the above things are Samsonov NF. identified firmly.
The protocol is recorded correctly.
Signatures: 1. Yudin, 2. Khamov, 3. Slobodin-Samsonov.
The things listed in this protocol from №1 to №10 have received: N.Samsonova (signature). 7.04.59. Ivanov (signature)
Sheet 244
Prosecutor-criminalist of the Prosecutor's Office of the Sverdlovsk Region, ml. counselor of justice Ivanov, this day in the presence of witnesses: Yudin Yuri Efimovich, student of UPT, gr. I-480 and Hamova Galina Nikolaevna, UPI, gr. C-344, presented to Khalizov Vyacheslav Ivanovich, a student of the city. P-559 personal equipment, which is supposed to belong to the dead Thibaut Nicholas.
Khalizov, having examined the equipment presented, stated that Thibaut belong to the following things:
1. A two-handed saw, Tybo was taken from someone.
Khalizov also said that Doroshenko owns the mitten-fur coat, which Doroshenko took before leaving Khalizov.
All of the above items Khalizov VI. identified firmly.
The protocol is recorded correctly.
Signatures: 1. Khalizov, 2. Khamov, 3. Yudin
Receipt
By me, VI Khalizov. got mittens, which I gave Doroshenko Yu. Signature: Khalizov.
Sheet 245
Protocol of identification of things No. 8, Sverdlovsk, April 1, 1959
Prosecutor-criminalist of the Prosecutor's Office of the Sverdlovsk Region, ml. counselor of justice Ivanov, this day in the presence of witnesses: Yudin Yuri Efimovich, student of UPT, gr. I-480 and Hamova Galina Nikolaevna, UPI, gr. C-344, showed Kortev, NV, UPI, gr ... personal equipment of the dead hikers. Kortev NV, having examined the equipment, stated that Dyatlov belonged to:
1. A blanket of red cloth from 10 studios of the UPI building.
2. Mug of green enamel.
The protocol is recorded correctly.
Signatures: 1. Kortev, 2. Khamov, 3. Yudin. Protocol-criminalist Ivanov (signature).
Sheet 246
Protocol of identification of things No. 9, Sverdlovsk, April 1, 1959
Prosecutor-criminalist of the Prosecutor's Office of the Sverdlovsk Region, ml. counselor of justice Ivanov, this day in the presence of witnesses: Yudin Yuri Efimovich, student of UPT, gr. I-480 and Hamova Galina Nikolaevna, UPI, gr. C-344, showed Dubinina Ie Vladimirovna - the mother of the deceased Luda Dubinina personal equipment, which is supposed to belong to L. Dubinina. Dubinin, having examined the equipment presented, stated that her daughter owned the following things:
1. Blanket blue woolen
2. Handkerchief
3. Socks 2 pairs of brown, woolen.
4. Trunks knitted.
5. The helmet is white woolen.
6. The mug is green.
7. Hedgehog and rubber bear, which Luda bought before the departure as a birthday gift to someone.
8. Boots black new.
9. Tooth. Brush, soap dish.
10. Bear in the evil. Pants and brown shirt personally Ludin.
11. Thirteen sacks of food that Luda was preparing before leaving.
12. Sports cap, white.
13. Woolen white scarf, narrow.
All of the above items Dubinin I.V. identified firmly.
Signatures: 1. Dubinina, 2. Yudin, 3. Khamov, pr-r cr-t Ivanov.
Sheet 247
Receipt by
Me, Dubinoy I.V. received the things listed in this protocol from No. 1 to 13. Signature
In addition (these are listed 13 things), Iya Vladimirovna Dubinina identified a green backpack, which is also handed along with these things.
Signature: Dubinina., 6.04.59.
Sheet 248
Protocol of identification of things No. 9, Sverdlovsk, April 3, 1959.
Prosecutor-criminalist of the Prosecutor's Office of the Sverdlovsk Region, ml. counselor of justice Ivanov, this day in the presence of witnesses: Yudin Yuri Efimovich, student of UPT, gr. I-480 and Hamova Galina Nikolaevna, UPI, gr. C-344, presented Belyasov Alexander Danilovich, the mechanization management technique No. 1, who lived in the same room in the hostel with Thibault Brignol Coley, personal equipment, which is supposed to belong to N. Tibo.
Belyasov said that Thibault N. owned the following things:
1. Svitre brown woolen, new.
2. Glasses in a green case.
3. Flashlight "Artel Saunobut Chernovitsy" (taken from Kruglyakov, a neighbor in the hostel). The inscription "round flask" is crossed out.
4. Mug is aluminum and a spoon.
5. Storm.
6. Cowboy in a large red cage.
7. Old felt hat, black.
8. The ax is large, with a tottering beak.
9. The soap dish is yellow.
10. Backpack green old Belyasov saw in Tibo house, but whose he does not know.
11. Thibaut departed in gray boots, which are not. - The inscription is crossed out.
12. The baby boogie is made of cotton. - The inscription is crossed out.
11. The saw, taken from the master in the instrumental
Sheet 249
Belyasov asserts that Thibaut N. took lychees with him, but here it is not. Among the presented things, one quilted jacket is like a quilted Teabo quilted jacket, but it is small and burnt. In addition, Thibaut took with him gray felt boots new, cotton trousers and a fur hare white color, which are also not here. Nothing can be said about the blanket (Aunt Thibaut N. knows about this).
The protocol is recorded correctly.
Signatures: 1. Khamova, 2, Yudin, 3. Belyasov. Prosecutor Ivanov (signature).
Sheet 250
Protocol of identification of things No. 11, Sverdovsk, April 4, 1959
Prosecutor-criminalist of the Prosecutor's Office of the Sverdlovsk Region, ml. counselor of justice Ivanov, this day in the presence of witnesses: Yudin Yuri Efimovich, student UPI, gr. I-480 and Hamova Galina Nikolaevna, UPI, gr. C-344, presented Kolevatova Rimma Sergeevna, the sister of the deceased Alexander Kolevatov, personal equipment, which is supposedly owned by Kolevatov.
Колеватова, having examined the presented equipment has declared, that Колеватову belong the following things:
Sheet 251
1. Comb, screwdriver, pliers.
2. Storm suit: a jacket and pants of a dark green color.
3. Fur hat.
4. The flask is round.
5. Buckets 2 pieces.
6. Bar for the point of knives.
7. Mug is green, spoon.
8. Flashlight simple artel ud. (two words are crossed out) "MENAL (fuzzy) No. 3". Moscow.
9. Black teapot
. 10. Boots , taken from Sasha Bagautdinov, Faculty 4, are sewn on the train.
11. Mittens are white, knitted.
12. Woolen socks, brown.
13. The balaclava is gray, woolen.
The protocol is recorded correctly.
Further crossed out text: Kolevatova RS having inspected the presented things, declared that her brother owned (the end of the crossed out text.
All of the above items are Kolevatova RS identified firmly. Signatures: 1. Khamova, 2. Kolevatova, 3. Yudin. Dr. Ivanov (signature).
Sheet 252
The protocol of identification of things from April 6, 1959 No. 12
Prosecutor-criminalist of the Prosecutor's Office of the Sverdlovsk region, ml. counselor of justice Ivanov, this day in the presence of witnesses: Yudin Yuri Efimovich, student UPI, gr. I-480 and Hamova Galina Nikolaevna, UPI, gr. C-344, presented Muzafarova Elizaveta Iosifovna, the aunt of the deceased Nikolai Thibaut, personal equipment, which as
assumed belongs to Thibaut.
Muzafarova EI, after examining the equipment presented, stated that N. Thibault owned the following things:
Sheet 253
1. The hat is black, old.
2. The blanket is black with a patch.
3. Svitre is brown.
4. Glasses in a green case.
5. The backpack is green, old, personal.
6. The mug is green.
7. Storm.
8. Cowboy in a large red cage.
9. The ax is large with a loose beard.
10. Socks red woolen and brown, nasal scarves with a green edge, 3 pieces.
11. Mittens are brown woolen and leather black.
12. A box of tea with a compass, etc.
13. Penknife's knife is broken.
14. Box of candy with a shaving device.
15. Two-handed saw.
16. Socks simple 10 pairs.
All listed things are identified firmly.
Sheet 254
Receipt. By me, Yudin Yu.E. obtained belongings to me things:
1. Blanched green from the 8 th student's class.
2. Gauntlets-fur coats sheathed in black.
3. A sportive blue cap.
4. First-aid kit, bowler, mask.
5. Fur sleeveless jacket trimmed in blue.
Signature Yudin, April 7, 1959.
Sheet 255
My
receipt, Kuznetsov Nikolai Filippovich, the head of the warehouse of the sports base received the equipment of the dead hikers, belonging to the sports club of the UPI.
1. Backpacks: Dyatlov, Tibo (crossed out), Doroshenko, Slobodin, Kolmogorova, Zolotarev, Kolevatov - 7 pieces (crossed out, all surnames are recorded "in column"
2. Ski boots Dyatlov, Tibo, Doroshenko, Slobodin, Dubinina, Kolmogorova, Zolotarev, Kolevatov 8 pairs. (surname - in the "column"
3 Ice ax one.
4 gaiters 15 pieces
5. Storm suits
6. Storm jackets
7. cookware one
8. Ski trousers one black
9.Switter half woolen, black
10.
Painting (fuzzy)
Sheet 256
G. Sverdlovsk, April 8, 1959 I
received a
receipt, Bagautdinov AI, student of UPI, gr. F-453, boots were received, which I gave Kolevatov in the trek.
Signed: Bagautdinov (signature) 8.04.-59.
Sheet 257
G. Sverdlovsk (March 31, 7 - crossed out)
Prosecutor criminalist of the Prosecutor's Office of Sverdlovsk region, Junior Counselor of Justice Ivanov this day in the presence of witnesses Yudin Yuri Efimovich, student UPI gr. I-480 and Hamova Galina Nikolaevna, gr. C-344 completed the identification of things and found that they remained unidentified:
1. Masks from the wind 7 pieces.
2. Cowboy in a small cage is red with blue.
3. A case with glasses, with a cracked right glass.
4. T-shirt pink knitted with lengths. Sleeves.
5. Headbands gray 2 pieces.
6. A small iron top in a leather case.
7. Sneakers homemade in a green cage.
8. 2 toothbrushes: simple and in a case.
9. Scissors are small.
10. Woolen socks old 9 pieces.
11. Wax socks 6 pieces.
12. Simple socks 7 pieces.
13. Gray cloth woolcloths 2 pcs. and brown flannel 1 pc.
14. Gauntlets of 12 pieces.
15. Bags of food for 4 pieces.
Signatures: 1 Khamova (signature)
2
3 Yudin (signature)
Prosecutor criminalist Ivanov (signature)
How do you know yours is the better version?
Compare the last section of my post
Around the nasal ridge, the nasal tip and the upper lip, there are clotted blood traces. The upper lip is swollen. Around the vermilion border of the upper lip, there is a 1.5 x 2 cm dark red haemorrhage. The mouth is slightly opened. The teeth are white and even. The mucous membrane of the gums and the vestibule of the mouth is pale red. The tongue is in the oral cavity behind the teeth. Around the right cheek, the soft tissue is covered with a layer of foamy grey fluid. Grey fluid traces are also visible around the opening of the mouth. The auricles are oval in shape and bluish red in colour. Around the tragus and the lobule of the right auricle, there is a 6 x 1.5 cm thick brown red area. On the left auricle around the tragus, there is a similar 4 x 1 cm brown red parchment-like area. The auricles are bright red from the inside. ??? ??? without any distinctive features. On the inner arms and forearms of both upper limbs, the venous pattern is well-defined. Soft tissues of the upper limbs are bluish red. On the inner right arm, in the middle third, there are two 2 x 1.5 cm irregular-shaped brown red parchment-like abrasions without haemorrhages in the adjacent tissue. In the area of these abrasions, two linear incisions are made. By the anterior margin of the right axillary line, there is a 2 x 1.5 cm dark red skin abrasion area. On the front of the right arm, there are small brown red scab-like abrasions without haemorrhages in the adjacent tissues. In the upper third of the right forearm, there are 4 (?) x 1-, 2.5 x 1.5 and 5 x 0.5 cm stripe-shaped brown red abrasions. There are also small abrasions in the lower third of the right forearm. On the back (?) of the right hand, there is swelling of the soft tissue and small abrasions. On the back of the hand, specifically on the second metacarpal bone, there is a 2 x 1.5 cm brown-red abrasion with haemorrhaging into the adjacent tissue. The soft tissue of the hand and fingers, especially the distal phalanges, are dark purple. On the inner left arm, in the lower third, there are 3 x 0.5 , 1.5 x 0.7 and 1 x 1.5 cm brown red abrasions. On the sides of the left elbow joint, there are small brown-red grazes as well as 2 x 3 cm abrasions of the same colour with the parallel stripe-shaped sliding traces. On the inner left forearm, between the middle third and the lower third, there is a 0.6 x 0.5 cm irregular-shaped oval skin wound. The edges of the wound are slightly pressed down and covered with clotted blood. An incision was made around this wound, and haemorrhaging in the adjacent soft tissues was found. The soft tissue in the back of the left hand is slightly swollen and brown-red in colour. The distal phalanges of the fingers are dark purple. The thoracic cage is cylindrical in shape. The abdomen is located slightly lower than the thoracic cage. In the iliac area, there is an 8 cm linear whitish scar. The external genital organs are properly formed. In the area of the glans penis and foreskin, the soft tissue is bright red. The openings of the anus and urethra are clean. The muscle groups of the lower limbs are well-developed. On the back and inner thighs and shins, the venous pattern is well-defined. On the front shins, in the middle third, there are pale red parchment-like abrasions – 8 x 4 cm on the left shin and 5 x 1.5 cm on the right shin. The soft tissue in the distal phalanges of the toes is dark purple. Examination by touch shows that the skeleton bones and cartilages are intact. B) Internal Organs Examination The skin flaps of the scalp are moist, rich, glossy, and pale red from the inside. The skullcap and skull base bones are intact. The dura mater is bluish and hyperaemic. The pia mater is opaque and swollen. Convolutions and fissures of the brain are smoothed out and flattened. The brain matter is a greenish red jelly-like substance. The grey matter can hardly be distinguished from the white matter. Brain ventricle contours are indistinguishable. The cerebellum matter pattern is poorly distinguished. The base of the brain vessels is regular. The subcutaneous fat of the body is well-developed. The position of the internal organs is normal. The pleural cavities are empty. The pericardium contained about 40 cm3 of amber fluid. The size of the heart is 13 x10 x 6 cm. The cardiac muscle is dark red when sectioned. The left ventricle muscle is 2 cm thick, while the right ventricle muscle is 0.7 cm thick... The lungs are bluish red on the outside and dough-like to the touch. The lung tissue when sectioned is dark red...
The liver is smooth and glossy on the outside. The size of the liver is 27 x 17 x 12 x 10 cm. The liver tissue when sectioned is cherry brown and hyperaemic. The liver tissue pattern is poorly distinguished...
The bladder contained about 150 cm3 of cloudy light yellow fluid.
Some organs from the body under examination have been taken for chemical and histological testing to the Regional Laboratory... Conclusion According to the examination results of the body belonging to D-ko Yuri Nikolayevich, aged 21, and considering the circumstances of the case, we believe that the death occurred as the result of low temperature exposure (freezing), which can be proved by the following evidence: meninges oedema, strong hyperaemia in the internal organs, cardiac cavities full of liquid dark blood, petechiae in the gastric mucosa (known as Wischnewsky spots), an excessively full bladder, along with the third and fourth degree frostbite of fingers and toes. External examination showed damage, such as multiple abrasions and skin wounds caused by a blunt object that could occur as the result of falling or bruising against stones, ice, and other objects. The injuries mentioned above occurred while alive, during the agonal state, and after death. The injuries mentioned above can be described as slight injuries without damage to health. This examination of the body gives reasons to state that the last meal was consumed 6 to 8 hours before death. Alcohol was not found during the tests. The death is violent and accidental. Signed: Forensic Medical Examiner, Regional Forensic Medical Examination Office
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (p. 215). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
Sheet 104
ACT # 2
FORENSIC-MEDICAL RESEARCH OF THE BODY OF
DOROSHENKO Yury Nikolaevich, 21 years old
March 4, 1959 according to the decision of the Prosecutor's Office of the Sverdlovsk region of March 3, 1959 Forensic experts of the Regional Bureau of Forensic Medical Examination of the Sverdlovsk Region VOZROZHDENNIY B.A. and Laptev II. in the presence of the state counselor of justice of the third class Klinov NI, the criminal prosecutor Ivan IVANOV LI, and understandable com. GORDO S.D. and NASKICHEV K.V. in the morgue room of the central hospital of the office Box No. H-240 under daylight and sunny weather, a corpse of citizen DOROSHENKO Yury Nikolaevich was examined on the 21st year, to determine the cause of death and answer the questions indicated in the resolution.
The circumstances of the case
January 23, 1959 an amateur group of hikers consisting of 10 people went on a ski trip on the route Ivdel - Mount Otorten. From the site of the 2 nd North in the ski trip went 9 people. On February 1, 1959 the group began the ascent to Mount Oorten and in the evening broke the tent near the height of 1079.
On the night of February 2, under unclear circumstances, all 9 people died.
Sheet 105
- 2 -
a / external inspection :
The corpse of a man, the right body; posture of the corpse: upper limbs are withdrawn in the shoulder joints upwards towards the head, in a bent position in the elbow joints, and also in the area of ??the finger joints. The lower extremities are elongated. The head is turned to the left.
Clothes on the corpse: a spatula with a short sleeve blue in a red cage, with two patch pockets for 2 buttons, a cowboy buttoned to all six buttons. T-shirt sleeveless - knitted, salad color, panties and melting satin blue, knitted blue pants buttoned on two buttons. In the middle third of the thigh on the inner surface on the left, and on the right on the front surface there are rips of pants, measuring 22 x 33 cm on the right and 13 x 13 cm on the left. On the left leg are two pairs of knitted light brown socks, with rips in the area of ??the rear of the foot and ankle joint; woolen socks are white, with a heel trimmed, in the area of ??the forefoot on the toe, there is a burnt patch measuring 2 x 5 cm in dark brown color. On the right leg, the remnants of a cotton sock with an elastic band are the same color as the one on the left. Wool white socks. On the inner surface of the panties there is a marking label with the inscription STS1313.
The length of the corpse is 180 cm., Good nutrition, with well developed muscular groups; cadaveric spots of purple-colored color are located on the posterior surface of the neck of the trunk and extremities. Burial stiffness spread in the muscle groups of the joints; on the head dark-haired hair up to 6 cm long is trimmed under the "half-box". In the right temporo-parietal and occipital region there is a section of burning ends of hair, the hair is stained with remains of moss and needles of coniferous trees, the skin of the face is brownish-colored, the contours of the face are smoothed. Eyebrows dense dark-haired, eyes closed, cornea cloudy, irises
Sheet 106
- 3 -
brown, pupils dilated, mucous eyelid pale pink. The back of the nose is straight.
In the region of the back of the nose, the tip of the nose and the upper lip, there are traces of discharge of gore. Upper lip swelling, in the red portion of the upper lip hemorrhage dark red measuring 1.5 x 2 cm. Lips parted s, the teeth are even white, the mucous gums and the vestibule of the mouth are pale red, the tongue in the mouth is behind the teeth. In the area of ??the right cheek soft tissues are covered with a layer of frothy gray liquid, from the mouth of the mouth there are traces of discharge of liquid of gray color. Ear shells of oval form of bluish-red color, in the area of ??tragus and lobes of right shell, dense sections of brownish color 6 x 1.6 cm in size, on the left auricle in the tragus area a section of the same color measuring 4 x 1 cm in parchment density, ears with inner surface of bright red color. Neck xxxx without features. In the area of ??the inner surface of the shoulders and forearms of both extremities, the venous pattern is well pronounced. Soft tissues of the upper extremities are cyanotic-reddish, on the inner surface of the right shoulder in the middle third are two abrasions measuring 2 x 1.5 cm. brown color of parchment density of irregular shape, without hemorrhages in the underlying tissues. In the area of ??these abrasions two cuts of linear are made. At the anterior margin of the right axillary line, the site of dark red coloration is 2 x 1.5 cm in size. On the front surface of the right shoulder, small bruise-colored abrasions in the form of strips measuring 4 x 1 cm, 2.5 x 1.5 cm and 5 x 0.5 cm and minor abrasions in the lower third of the right forearm. In the area of ??the rear of the right hand, soft tissue swelling and small abrasions. At the rear of the hand, respectively, the second metacarpal bone is an abrasion 2 x 1.5 cm in size, brownish-colored with hemorrhages in the underlying soft tissues. Soft brush fabrics At the anterior margin of the right axillary line, the site of dark red coloration is 2 x 1.5 cm in size. On the front surface of the right shoulder, small bruise-colored abrasions in the form of strips measuring 4 x 1 cm, 2.5 x 1.5 cm and 5 x 0.5 cm and minor abrasions in the lower third of the right forearm. In the area of ??the rear of the right hand, soft tissue swelling and small abrasions. At the rear of the hand, respectively, the second metacarpal bone is an abrasion 2 x 1.5 cm in size, brownish-colored with hemorrhages in the underlying soft tissues. Soft brush fabrics At the anterior margin of the right axillary line, the site of dark red coloration is 2 x 1.5 cm in size. On the front surface of the right shoulder, small bruise-colored abrasions in the form of strips measuring 4 x 1 cm, 2.5 x 1.5 cm and 5 x 0.5 cm and minor abrasions in the lower third of the right forearm. In the area of ??the rear of the right hand, soft tissue swelling and small abrasions. At the rear of the hand, respectively, the second metacarpal bone is an abrasion 2 x 1.5 cm in size, brownish-colored with hemorrhages in the underlying soft tissues. Soft brush fabrics In the area of ??the rear of the right hand, soft tissue swelling and small abrasions. At the rear of the hand, respectively, the second metacarpal bone is an abrasion 2 x 1.5 cm in size, brownish-colored with hemorrhages in the underlying soft tissues. Soft brush fabrics In the area of ??the rear of the right hand, soft tissue swelling and small abrasions. At the rear of the hand, respectively, the second metacarpal bone is an abrasion 2 x 1.5 cm in size, brownish-colored with hemorrhages in the underlying soft tissues. Soft brush fabrics
Sheet 107
- 4 -
and the fingers of the hands are especially terminal phalanges of dark-colored color. On the inner surface of the left shoulder in the lower third of the bruise-colored grazes are 3 x 0.5, 1.5 x 0.7 and 1 x 1.5. On the lateral surfaces of the left elbow joint, small abrasions of brown color of parchment density and abrasions of the same color 2 x 3 cm in size with traces of slipping in the form of bands parallel to each other. On the inner surface of the left forearm, at the border of the middle third and lower third, the skin wound is of an irregular oval shape measuring 0.6 x 0.5 cm, its edges are slightly bent and covered with gore, under the wound, traces of gore. A cut was made in the area of ??this wound, where a hemorrhage in the underlying soft tissues was detected. Soft tissues in the area of ??the rear of the left hand are slightly swollen reddish-colored. End phalanx of fingers of hands of dark-colored color. The thorax is cylindrical, the abdomen is located somewhat below the level of the thorax. In the right iliac region, the dermal color of the whitish color of the linear shape is 8 cm in size. The external genital organs are developed correctly, in the region of the foreskin and glans penis of bright red color. The aperture of the anus and the urethra are clean. Muscular groups of the lower extremities are well developed. The posterior-internal surface of the hips and shins is well defined venous pattern. On the anterior surface of both shins in the middle third, the skin of the pale red color is of parchment density of 8 x 4 cm on the left, and 5 x 1.5 cm on the right shin. Soft tissues in the area of ??the end phalanx of the toes of the foot are dark-colored. The bones and cartilage of the skeleton are intact when tested. The stomach is located somewhat below the level of the chest. In the right iliac region, the dermal color of the whitish color of the linear shape is 8 cm in size. The external genital organs are developed correctly, in the region of the foreskin and glans penis of bright red color. The aperture of the anus and the urethra are clean. Muscular groups of the lower extremities are well developed. The posterior-internal surface of the hips and shins is well defined venous pattern. On the anterior surface of both shins in the middle third, the skin of the pale red color is of parchment density of 8 x 4 cm on the left, and 5 x 1.5 cm on the right shin. Soft tissues in the area of ??the end phalanx of the toes of the foot are dark-colored. The bones and cartilage of the skeleton are intact when tested. The stomach is located somewhat below the level of the chest. In the right iliac region, the dermal color of the whitish color of the linear shape is 8 cm in size. The external genital organs are developed correctly, in the region of the foreskin and glans penis of bright red color. The aperture of the anus and the urethra are clean. Muscular groups of the lower extremities are well developed. The posterior-internal surface of the hips and shins is well defined venous pattern. On the anterior surface of both shins in the middle third, the skin of the pale red color is of parchment density of 8 x 4 cm on the left and 5 x 1.5 cm on the right shin. Soft tissues in the area of ??the end phalanx of the toes of the foot are dark-colored. The bones and cartilage of the skeleton are intact when tested. The external genitalia are developed correctly, in the area of ??the foreskin and glans penis of bright red color. The aperture of the anus and the urethra are clean. Muscular groups of the lower extremities are well developed. The posterior-internal surface of the hips and shins is well defined venous pattern. On the anterior surface of both shins in the middle third, the skin of the pale red color is of parchment density of 8 x 4 cm on the left and 5 x 1.5 cm on the right shin. Soft tissues in the area of ??the end phalanx of the toes of the foot are dark-colored. The bones and cartilage of the skeleton are intact when tested. The external genitalia are developed correctly, in the area of ??the foreskin and glans penis of bright red color. The aperture of the anus and the urethra are clean. Muscular groups of the lower extremities are well developed. The posterior-internal surface of the hips and shins is well expressed venous pattern. On the anterior surface of both shins in the middle third, the skin of the pale red color is of parchment density of 8 x 4 cm on the left, and 5 x 1.5 cm on the right shin. Soft tissues in the area of ??the end phalanx of the toes of the foot are dark-colored. The bones and cartilage of the skeleton are intact when tested. The posterior-internal surface of the hips and shins is well expressed venous pattern. On the anterior surface of both shins in the middle third, the skin of the pale red color is of parchment density of 8 x 4 cm on the left and 5 x 1.5 cm on the right shin. Soft tissues in the area of ??the end phalanx of the toes of the foot are dark-colored. The bones and cartilage of the skeleton are intact when tested. The posterior-internal surface of the hips and shins is well expressed venous pattern. On the anterior surface of both shins in the middle third, the skin of the pale red color is of parchment density of 8 x 4 cm on the left and 5 x 1.5 cm on the right shin. Soft tissues in the area of ??the end phalanx of the toes of the foot are dark-colored. The bones and cartilage of the skeleton are intact when tested.
Sheet 108
- 5 -
B / Internal Research
Skin flaps of the scalp with internal dampness wet, juicy, shiny, pale red. The bones of the arch and the base of the skull are intact, the dura mater is cyanotic, full-blooded, the soft dura mater is turbid, swollen. The gyrus and fissures of the brain are smoothed, flattened, the substance of the brain is a jelly-like mass of a greenish-red color. Gray matter of the brain is not clearly distinguishable from white, the contours of the ventricles of the brain are indistinguishable, the pattern of the cerebellum substance is discernible poorly. the bases of the brain without features. Subcutaneous fat tissue of the trunk and extremities ("limbs" is clogged or corrected - approx.) Is well developed. The position of the internal organs is correct, the pleural cavities are free. The pericardial bag contained up to 40 cm 3 of an amber liquid. Hearts in the size of 13 x 10 x 6 cm., heart muscle on a section of dark red color, the thickness of the left ventricle muscle 2 cm, right 0.7 cm, in the right and left half of the heart was kept up to 270 cm 3. liquid dark blood, aortic and pulmonary artery smooth , thin, shiny, pale red; the coronary arteries are free, the arteries are enlarged, we pass well; inside the aortic surface smooth, clean, the width of the aortic arch ?? valves 8.5 cm. The lungs from the surface bluish red ??? colors, test doughs to the touch, on the cuts the tissue of the lungs is dark red, when pressed from the surface of the cut st. in a large quantity of liquid dark blood and foamy ??? yanistaya liquid; the larynx and bronchus lumen is free; mucous esophagus, trachea, bronchus bluish-red color. ???? the sub-lingual bone is intact. Thyroid gland on the incision of a flock of reddish color.
Sheet 109
- 6-
? 50 cm 3. liquid mucous mass of reddish-colored, mucous stomach of lilac-red color, swollen, with well expressed folding; On the upper surface of the folds of the stomach there is a large number of small hemorrhages - spots of Wischnewsky. A sour smell is felt by the sense of smell from the contents of the stomach. The pancreas is fine-lobed, lilac-colored in the section. In the lumen of the small intestine contained a mucus mass of reddish color, the mucosa of the intestine is bluish-red. In the large intestine, half-formed feces are light-brown in color, the mucosa of the intestine is pale-gray. The spleen is flabby to the touch, the capsule is wrinkled, the size of the spleen is 1 x 7 x 3 cm, the tissue of its dark-cherry color on slices, the pulp gives a slight scraping from the surface of the incision. The liver from the surface is smooth, shiny, the size of the liver is 9 x 12 x 10 cm, on a cut liver tissue of a bilberry-colored color, full-blooded, the figure of the hepatic tissue is poorly discernible, the gall bladder contains up to 30 cm 3. liquids of olific color, the mucous membrane of the gall bladder is velvety brownish. The kidneys from the surface are smooth, shiny, the capsule is easily removed from them, the size of the right kidney is 11 x 6 x 4 cm, the left kidney is 11 x 5 x 3.5 cm, the tissue of the buds is dark-cherry on the cut, the layers of the kidneys are poorly discernible. The layers of the adrenal glands are clearly distinguishable. The bladder contained about 150 cm 3 of a cloudy, light yellow liquid; the bladder mucosa is pale. In the study of internal organs, the presence of alcohol was not detected. the mucous membrane of the gall bladder is velvety brownish. The kidneys from the surface are smooth, shiny, the capsule is easily removed from them, the size of the right kidney is 11 x 6 x 4 cm, the left kidney is 11 x 5 x 3.5 cm, the tissue of the kidney is dark-cherry on the cut, the layers of the kidneys are poorly discernible. The layers of the adrenal glands are clearly distinguishable. The bladder contained about 150 cm 3 of a cloudy, light yellow liquid; the bladder mucosa is pale. In the study of internal organs, the presence of alcohol was not detected. the mucous membrane of the gall bladder is velvety brownish. The kidneys from the surface are smooth, shiny, the capsule is easily removed from them, the size of the right kidney is 11 x 6 x 4 cm, the left kidney is 11 x 5 x 3.5 cm, the tissue of the buds is dark-cherry on the cut, the layers of the kidneys are poorly discernible. The layers of the adrenal glands are clearly distinguishable. The bladder contained about 150 cm 3 of a cloudy, light yellow liquid; the bladder mucosa is pale. In the study of internal organs, the presence of alcohol was not detected. the bladder mucosa is pale. In the study of internal organs, the presence of alcohol was not detected. the bladder mucosa is pale. In the study of internal organs, the presence of alcohol was not detected.
For chemical research and histological examination, a part of internal organs from the examined corpse was taken, which were sent to the laboratory of the Oblast
Sheet 110
- 7 -
Bureau of Forensic Science for Research.
COURT.MED. EXPERT OF THE REGIONAL
BUREAU OF SUDMEDEKSPERTIZY - signature / REVIVAL /
COURT.MED. EXPERT OF THE CITY
NORTH-URALSK - signature / LAPTEV /
PROSECUTOR OF THE SVERDLOVSK REGION
STATE COUNCIL OF JUSTICE III CLASS - signature / KLINOV /
PROSECUTOR OF THE REGIONAL CRIMINALIST
PROSECUTORS ML.SOVETNIK JUSTICE - signature / IVANOV /
CONCEPT: signature / GORDO /
CONCEPT: signature / NASCICHEV /
Sheet 111
CONCLUSION
Based on the data of the investigation of the corpse of citizen DOROSHENKO Yuri Nikolayevich, 21 years old and considering the circumstances of the case, we believe that DOROSHENKO's death came from the effect of a low temperature / freezing / as evidenced by? edema of the meninges, sharp fullness of the internal organs, overflow with liquid dark blood of the heart cavities, presence of Wischnewsky spots on the gastric mucosa, bladder overflow, and frostbite of the limbs 3rd and 4th degree.
In case of an external examination, the damage in the form of precipitations, abrasions and cutaneous wounds is caused by a blunt instrument that could have occurred as a result of a fall or injury? stones, ice and so on.
The above damage was caused as during life, as well as in the agonal state and posthumously. By the nature of the damage, the above injuries are classified as lungs without a health disorder.
The data of the investigation of the corpse DOROSHENKO give grounds to believe that he had a meal 6-8 hours before his death. The presence of alcohol during the study was not detected. Death is forcible, accident.
COURT.MED. EXPERT OF THE REGIONAL
BUREAU OF SUDMEDEKSPERTIZY - signature / REVIVAL /
COURT.MED. EXPERT OF THE CITY
NORTH-URALSK - signature / LAPTEV /
What have you read?
Have you read the actual case files and autopsy reports?
N.B. the graph for a neon tube, quite modest voltage/currents.
"Depending on several factors, the discharge may radiate visible light."
My problem with that theory is that if SZ was a KGB field operative with a camera setup for night photography then he wouldn't be taking pointless pictures... That fact that the frame has been exposed makes it axiomatic that there was something he wanted to record.
Also apparently across all the cameras there something like 30 frames that are similar to the SZ's.
To overlook all these injuries as just small bumps etc is absolutely insane.
"If you look at the two pictures of melted and then hardened snow -- which extend for ten or more meters,"
You haven't proven said ice sheet exist, nor that a fireball produced it... This is your problem, not mine. Ever seen snow turn crunchy? Ever think conditions have changed since the fatal night? Of course not, everything was exactly as the fireball left it weeks before in some of the most extreme conditions on tje planet... Sure!
I'm getting excited about the 2012 photos on the viafanzine page 4 :-
http://www.viafanzine.jor.br/002imag/03_13/dyatlov4_objeto.jpg .
http://www.viafanzine.jor.br/002imag/03_13/dyatlov4_objeto2.jpg .
I think connected ion streams glowing at a node is a good explanation for the main object. SZ's plane photos plus the others now make sense. They're not erroneous from camera shake or water damage but of an object in the sky changing form over time. That's why he took each frame, the thing was morphing from one form to another. Could be applicable to the cloud like stuff as well.
@KMM/John - Wrt the den, if you sit down in the open in -20C you're not going to leave your gloves in your pocket or jacket unbuttoned. You're no longer keeping warm from activity so a closed shelter is axiomatic with the use of the seats imo. Svetlana Oss wonders if they had found a mansi hunter shelter as the floor seems to be very well constructed for a temporary hideout for a few hours. Apparently there was a "choom" 800m away.
So they must have been within a compact cave any more open structure wouldn't fit the above. Point taken about getting damp but they didn't have the outer layers for anything else. The only way to argue against the cave imo is to argue it was a lot warmer than -20C.
@LC - combat injuries - the problem here is that there is a group of bruises, abrasions cuts etc that are ambiguous, could be combat could be more innocent causes. The case against combat injuries is that there aren't ANY injuries that are CLEARLY combat related - broken noses, black eyes, gouged eyes, torn ears etc etc. The omission of clear combat injuries favours innocent causes for the others imo. I know you're not going to like that answer but it would be nice if you try and reply in fewer posts rather than as many as possible... Maybe just one post, i can dream...
photos that night show a raging storm with high winds -- I go with about 30 to 50 km / hr -- The Ural range is relatively smooth and worn-down, so would be subject to the very high winds we see in not only the photos of that night but nearly every modern video I've seen (and posted) of the area in the winter.
"Under natural conditions, a layer of snow four feet thick could never cover them: there was not enough time, nor snowfall so strong to produce so much snow."
The REAL mystery of the DPI.
The author says "where did the snow come from ?" its like it fell from the sky or something.
More BS, the guy never heard of drifting ???
Where does he think it came from ? Does BL now cover its dead with snow ? Another property of BL discovered ?
I would go with very windy.
"Traces at the scene of the incident
1) Presence of a heat source.
Weather Report for Ivdel raion:
"On the night of 1st. February 1959, air temperature dropped almost twice as compared to morning, reaching -20, -21 ° C. In comparison with morning values, air humidity was low, 56%, visibility was of 8 points (on average). Precipitations fell less than 0.5 mm. Wind north-northwest 1 m / sec. Blizzards, hurricanes or storms were not observed . "
On the slopes of the Mountain of the Dead, the temperature, obviously, was much lower, due to height and wind. With a high degree of certainty we can add here from five to seven degrees, which means that the temperature in the dyatlovtsy tent was approaching minus 30 degrees. In the conditions of a strong cold, the humidity is low (the indicated value is 56 percent), and the snow, dry and powder. There should be no ice at all.
But what do we see?
- Near the entrance to the tent, there was an ice patch in the shape of sharp, parallel "ribs" (such icy formations are called internationally from Sastrugui , which is the term of Russian origin). First responders paid attention to this ice islet, with a diameter of about four meters. The ice was very strong, ribbed, as if it were freezing in the form of waves; so that on these sharp "ribs" the snow blocks launched by rescue workers were easily broken off when they were looking for bodies near the tent."
Huh.... Who woulda thunk it! The author just pulls this fricked up crazy ass story outta thin freaking air!! No evidence, no quotes.... nada, zip, NOTHING! Unbelievable
It happened.. I was there... Its all proof in black and white, why question it!?!
to translate a page I had to first open the page (from the link I supplied) THEN hit translate -- the page always tells me that it isn't working -- THEN HIT REFRESH -- if that doesn't give you a page in English -- hit translate again -- once this is done you should still have to do this for the other three pages; once you've done this I think google sends you a cookie which when you click on the same page later you should get the page in English (if it comes up in a foreign language - just hit translate and it should work right away without any more fooling around)
Laff.... its about 1 mile you dingbat, and.... they had a map.... they knew where the trees were, and what evidence is there it was to 'hide'.....with a freaking fire!
The indicated lesions could have arisen as a result of the influence of a great force, which caused a severe closed, fatal trauma of Dubinina's rib cage. In addition, the injuries caused in life are precisely the result of the influence of a great force with the subsequent fall, pushing or bruising in the region of the rib cage of Dubinina. (...) Dubinina's death was violent . "
Meh.... cant possibly happen by falling...on a boulder... where she was found! The page author says the following..
"Simply put, the eyeballs were removed (even traces of the retina were not found by the expert, otherwise he would have indicated this), and the tongue, along with the diaphragm of the mouth, were simply pulled out. Such a conclusion is obtained if you pay attention to the "abnormal mobility" of the horns of the hyoid bone in which the tongue is fixed; that is, these horns were broken ."
This guy is a MEGA jackwagon..... she wasnt the only one missing eyes etc... SHE WAS FOUND HALF ROTTED FACE OVER A ROCK WITH RUNNING CREEK WATER POURING INTO THE FACE!
Where do these people come from.... is there no common sense?!?!
" Question: From the action of what force could Thibeaux obtain such injuries?
Answer: In the opinion, it is indicated that the injuries to the head of Thibeaux could be the result of a push, fall or throwing of the body. I do not believe that Thibeaux could get those injuries, falling short of his height, namely that he slipped and hit his head. The wide, depressed, multi-splintered and very deep fracture [of the calvarium and the base of the skull] may be the result of the throwing by a car moving at high speed, or another traffic accident. Such a trauma could have been caused had Thibeaux been struck by a strong gust of wind, with the subsequent fall and blow on the head against the rocks, ice, etc.
Question: Can one presume that Thibeaux was struck by a stone that was in the hand of a man?
Answer: In this case, the soft tissues would be injured, but this was not verified. "
He had on a winter cap!!!!! Meh BL dictates a 'shockwave' did this..... yeah, uh huh
So which is it?? (bat in hand) It was stowed or disassembled?!?!
Here ya go... Rustem Slobodin
"Opinion of the expert Boris Vozrozhdionniy: "The indicated trauma to the skull was occasioned by a blunt instrument."
Blunt instrument.... or shockwave? Hey... this is the medical experts words right!
Nope.... here comes the BL conspiracy of changing information to suit a narrative as the page author states...
"With this, the reader must remember that Slobodin's corpse had no external characteristics of this alleged " blow struck by a blunt instrument ". The fact is that the expert simply could not find any other explanation for this strange trauma to the skull"
Oh, now isnt that just convenient! Lets make it into what its not!
Another...
"The image of the tragedy was emerging: the last four were preparing, under all the rules of hiker overwintering, a lining to sit in the snow"
So they sat in a hole eh?
Google translate doesn't work for me on that page
http://www.viafanzine.jor.br/site_vf/pag/5/dyatlov_part04.htm
-- as it talks about reports of hard melted snow and there are photos -- at least one taken specifically of the melted and hard show (in a circular area like a ball of (?) might do to the snow -- it would have to be RADIANT energy as normal convection of heat would be blown away by the intense winds there. RADIANT energy -- like an intense ball of light would give off.
We did... at least I did. As I stated before, its all based on one wag built upon another to create a BL narrative. , thats the only reason why you want us to read it. There are FAR too many issues on that page to list.
http://www.viafanzine.jor.br/site_vf/pag/5/dyatlov_part01.htm
-- there are four parts --
and use google translate to read in English-- the read is long but contains many photos of the rescue / recovery effort; and some interesting analysis. I had to reload the page after hitting "translate" and then hit translate again -- worked like a charm.
I have a friend who lived for years outside in Wyoming winter (fairly close to those conditions experienced by the hikers -- only with clothing and a double bag) He would make a small snow-cave and slide in feet first(in sleeping bag) never suffered in any way. If he wore his outside winter clothing into the snow(more of a den)cave he would have woke up soaked and sweating instead of dry and warm. --- its hard to balance that heat vs. cold.
ALSO: I'm not sure they dug out the snow-cave carefully enough to detail its overall shape, only the location of the branches. I'm wondering if the trail of twigs was a marker for any other survivors who might come looking for them -- recall that three were found in prone positions that look like they were going back to the tent -- to gather the clothing needed for all to survive ? We don't actually know what they all did, except that they all left as a group, and they all seemed to function as a group -- and so after dropping a flashlight in the on position 1/2 way up the hill -- building a fire at the cedar tree -- and building a snow-shelter in the deep snow at the bottom of that small ravine for the most injured -- the least injured attempted to return to the tent. Only it appears that they stopped 1/2 way. (were they stopped by the presence of more balls of light which explode and injure?)
We all acknowledge that BL exists and yet, the fact it exists alone does not prove thats what happened to these people. The only evidence I am seeing for BL is.. "it scared them out of the tent', and there are reports of strange lights in the area 'around' the same time of year.
There is no evidence of a 'hot spot'
There is no evidence of 'burnt treetops' or 'burn spots on tree trunks'
There is no evidence of a 'den collapse'
There is no evidence of 'BL on groups film'
and a few others..... The BL pushers have selectively chosen unsubstantiated BS claims as a FOUNDATION for the theory.
Don't agree it would retain heat from breathing etc. I think this is standard mountaineering stuff.
How does "trail of twigs" equate to digging a den ?
The trail of twigs led into the snow drift, that's how they found the seats.
The smoothness of the snow field (combined with the relative electrical insulating characteristics of clean / smooth snow) is precisely my point in suggesting that the BL was attracted to the group and their equipment -- as they would be an exposed node. No reason to suggest a plot (nor attribute attack) to anything more than a charged area relative to a smooth electrical field. While I do not think there was any lightning (certainly none reported in any diaries) however, the possibility exists that the causes of regular lightning also cause ball-lightning (simply because they are nearly always seen in conjunction -- I'll expand this idea in the next post) This does not in any way rule out that under certain conditions (which may involve the magnetic and electrical states of the nearby ground / Earth / earth) the causes of regular lightning might make BL instead -- the last photos of the hikers digging into a snowdrift for the tent-site show what looks like a storm to me. Also, I have been looking into the geology of the Urals and conclude that they are a good candidate for unusual grounding and electrio-magnetic conditions. The Urals formed a long time ago and were the result of two smaller continents colliding -- like the Himalayas -- only worn down to their metal rich orogenic foundation.
see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craton
and look at the green area of the world map
Remember that the Earth is a very electro-magnetically active planet (or we'd be more like Mars -- that is, a dead planet)
see: https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1106/1106.4942.pdf for a discussion of field reversals on our planet
and see: https://www.ngdc.noaa.gov/geomag/emag2.html for a really detailed image (right side of the page) of magnetic anomalies -- it is not necessary that you understand the details of this image, but only that you understand that these anomalies are everywhere -- so when coupled with other characteristics of the earth (a local storm plus metal / ore structures, etc) this might produce ball lightning.
This planetary electro-magnetic activity moves around a bit and there are nodes of activity -- perhaps these are located in areas of higher than normal concentrations of metals in that Earth -- such as in the lands which surround the Urals.
Also it's your assumption that the ravine offered shelter from the wind and NTB was found with his gloves in his pocket, doesn't sound like he was sat in the open on twigs to me. Ditto AK's jacket was unzipped. Also it's very likely that the ravine would have filled with snow to some extent, so if they had a snow bank it would be easy to dig into it. Also the closeness of the seats suggests a cave to me, they're real close...
Trail of twigs led from the cedar tree
How does "trail of twigs" equate to digging a den ?
They weren't trying to build a home, just survive for a few hours, maybe the night. Out of the wind and butts off the snow would of been main priorities. The inside of a den is not going to be any warmer, but getting out of the wind was paramount.
You know darn right deep down these were not clumsy booboos. Your talking to a combat Marine thats been through some rough shit but never had these injuries in their quantities afterwards. Face the only known HARD facts we have.... these people gave and received combat blows. Fact
We'll have to agree to disagree on the injuries the microwave theory has it that it makes scratches, makes them clumsy, they also dug out the rav4 with their bare hands. It could be RS headbutted the ground hard enough to fracture his head. Apparently the rescue team found the whole mountain to be covered in extremely hard ice. Trying walk uphill or downhill in those conditions in socks could have caused a lot of tumbles.
dont ask
http://image.ibb.co/fGpquF/9bf02a78814c27284e386f5f4c839914.jpg
"WHAT DEN ?"
Unbelievable level of ignorance.
A flooring was found to keep them off the snow, in the ravine they were already out of the wind
A den being dug is pure speculation.
you look like the ignorant one to me !
Yeah... pretty sure the day before as represented BY THEIR OWN PHOTOGRAPHIC EVIDENCE..... they were fine, as in NOT beat to shit. Have you ever been in a fight? How about a really ugly one that was damn near deadly?
LOOK AT ZINAs KNUCKLE AND TELL ME THESE ARE HIKING CUTS!!
FYI... Yuri was helping Zina get on her feet/skies. She was freaking half smiling, and was joyful when upright. YOU CAN NOT EXPLAIN AWAY THEIR INJURIES WITH EVERYDAY BUMPS AND BL!!!
Unbelievable level of ignorance.
"WHAT DEN ?"
The one that was found intact with twigs for a floor and clothing used as ass pads in all four corners that was covered with snow... no concrete evidence anything 'caved' in. Yet alone it having a solid foot thick ice skull smashing ceiling. I read a report that much of the twig floor was reconstructed by the rescue team. Besides... Lyudmila was found with an avalanche probe with a meat hook barb on the end. How did the search team even know to miraculously dig and find a den some meters away from the bodies? It dont add up
WHAT DEN ?
That description of some of the injuries speaks volumes and is clearly enough for someone with an open mind to see a physical confrontation took place !!
Beat to shit. Swollen face, cuts, chunk off knuckle, cut wrist. This girl was beat, you know it, and I know it.
https://image.ibb.co/kksogv/Dyatlov_group_colorized_by_Mikko_Kolkkanen_07.jpg .
https://image.ibb.co/gqbW1v/Dyatlov_group_colorized_by_Mikko_Kolkkanen_09.jpg
Look closely above and to the left of the light, do you see smoke or mist?"
CLOUDS
2. ear, nose and lips are covered with blood <<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT
3. swollen upper lip with dark red hemorrhage <<<<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT
4. right cheek soft tissue covered with gray foam; gray liquid coming form his open mouth. Most apparent cause is pulmonary edema. (Pulmonary Edema.... Fluid in lungs... Common when starved of oxygen) <<<<<<< CHOKED THE FRICK OUT
7. right armpit has a bruise 2x1.5 cm <<<<<<<< FIGHTING
8. brown-red bruises with size 4x1 cm, 2.5x1.5 cm, 5x5 cm in the upper third of right forearm <<<<<<< FIGHTING
9. swelling and small abrasions in the rear of the right hand soft tissue <<<<<<< KICKING SOMEONES ASS
10. bruise with bleeding into the underlying soft tissue on the back of the right hand corresponding to the second metacarpal bone <<<< KICKING SOMEONES ASS
14. on the inner surface of the left forearm there is a surface skin wound covered with dried blood <<<<<<<<< BLOCKING/FIGHTING
15. similar bruises in pale red color on the shins of both legs <<<<<<< FIGHTING GROUND WRESTLE
YURI KRIVONISCHENKO
1. bruises on the forehead 0.3x1.8 cm <<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT
2. diffuse bleeding in the right temporal and occipital region due to damage to temporalis muscle <<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT
3. bruise around left temporal bone <<<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT
7. back of the right hand is swollen, fingers are brownish-purple <<<<<<< KICKING THAT ASS
14. dark red abrasions on left wrist, back of the left hand is swollen <<<<<<<<< KICKING THAT ASS
16.three linear skin lesions with straight edges, sharp corners and depth up to 0.3 cm on the inner side of the upper third of the left thigh <<< FIGHTING, POSSIBLE TREE CLIMBING
17. three cutaneous wounds with sharp corners on the inner side of the upper third of the left hip <<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT
18. dark brown abrasion on the front of the right femur and tibia <<<<< FIGHTING OR BIG FALL
19. dark brown-red abrasions on the front-inner left thigh <<<<<<< FIGHTING OR BIG FALL
IGOR DYATLOV
1. minor abrasions on the forehead <<<<<< FIGHTING BEAT UP
2. minor abrasions on the upper eyelids <<<<<<< FIGHTING BEAT UP
3. brown-red abrasions above the left eyebrow <<<<<<<< FIGHTING BEAT UP
4. minor abrasions on the left cheek <<<<<<<< FIGHTING BEAT UP
5. brown-red abrasions on both cheeks <<<<<<<< FIGHTING BEAT UP
6. dried blood on lips <<<<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT
8. bruised knees without bleeding into the UNDERLYING tissues <<<<<< FIGHTING WRESTLING
9. both ankles had brownish red abrasions, size 1x0.5 cm and 3x2.5 cm with hemorrhage into the 10. underlying tissue <<<<<< FIGHTING POSSIBLE DRAGGING
10. single incision 4x2 cm in the lower third of the right tibia <<<<<< FIGHTING CUT WOUND
11. many small scratches of dark red color on the lower third of the right forearm and palm surface <<<<<<< FIGHTING
13. metacarpophalangeal joints on the right hand had brown red bruises. This is common injury in hand to hand fights. To get a better idea of the injuries just make a fist. This is the part of the hand which you use to hit someone. <<<<<< FIGHTING!!!!!!
14. left hand is brown-purple color with brownish-red bruises <<<< FIGHTING
15. superficial wounds on the 2nd and 5th finger on the left hand <<<<<<< FIGHTING
16. skin wound in the palmar surface of the 2nd 5th finger of left hand <<<<<<< FIGHTING
ZINAIDA KOLMOGOROVA
1. dark red abrasion on the right frontal eminence <<<<< BEAT TO SHIT
2. pale gray area 3x2 cm above the right eyebrow <<<<< STRANGE
3. dark red abrasion on the upper eyelids <<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT
4. brown red graze on the bridge and tip of the nose <<<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT
5. numerous abrasions on the left cheekbone <<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT
6. bruised skin on the right side of the face <<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT
7. brown-red abrasion on the back of both hands in the area of metacarpal phalangeal and inter-phalangeal joints <<<<<< KICKING THAT ASS
8. wound with jagged edges and missing skin on the back of the right hand at the base of the third finger <<<<<<< KICKING THAT ASS
10. a long BRIGHT red bruise 29x6 cm in the lumbar region on the right side of the torso. The bruise looks like left from a baton <<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT..... BATON, BRIGHT RED, FRESH, NOT DAYS OLD, BIG FUGGIN STICK WACK.
RUSTEM SLOBODIN
1. hemorrhages in the temporalis muscles <<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT
2. minor brownish red abrasions on the forehead <<<<<< FIGHTING
3. two scratches are 1.5 cm long at the distance of 0.3 cm between them
4. brownish red bruise on the upper eyelid of the right eye with hemorrhage into the UNDERLYING tissues <<<< BEAT TO SHIT
5. traces of blood discharge from the nose <<<<< BEAT TO SHIT
6. SWELLING and a lot of small abrasions on both sides of the face <<<<<< GOOD GOD BEAT TO SHIT
7. bruises in the metacarpophalangeal joints on both hands. Similar bruises are common in hand to hand combat <<<< KICKING THAT ASS
8. brown cherry bruises on the medial aspect of the left arm and left palm <<<<<<< FIGHTING
9. SWOLEN lips. <<<<<<< BEAT TO SHIT
10. bruises on the left tibia in dimensions at 2.5x1.5 cm (not shown on diagram) <<<<< LITERALLY KICKING.... THAT ASS
11. epidermis is torn from the right forearm (not shown on diagram) <<<<< FIGHTING, KICKING ASS
12. fracture of the frontal bone 6x0.1 cm located 1.5 cm from the sagittal suture (showing on separate skull trauma diagram without numbers) BEAT TO SHIT, BLOW TO HEAD, FIGHT OVER, CAN BE DONE WITH FIST, ROCK, LOG, BOOT, YOU PICK
AND THATS JUST THE 5 NOT ROTTED BEYOND RECOGNITION.
Look closely above and to the left of the light, do you see smoke or mist?
Now compare the asymmetry of the light above and the smoke with SZ's photos - Woven mesh, lynx, horn, jaws, mushroom.
Quite similar?
So i'm thinking an LE type blast might be more suitable for the ravine4. It would be intersting to know if a thunderclap could be subsonic.
That can only be answered by the science of the future.
can they cause the injuries of the 4 in the ravine
They have been observed to explode so you have a plausible link with the pathologists "shockwave from a bomb" theory.
My favourite scenario would be that the object exploded outside the den throwing the den wall inwards pushing the occupants down and backwards. NTB fell between SZ and LD just before a big chunk of the den roof fell on the three of them across 2 chests and one head. AK was at the back and injured the back of his head and broke his nose on his knee but escaped the crushing from the collapse. The autopsy didn't seem to investigate the deformed neck so we don't know if that was pre or post event.
They haven't the pathologist describes most of these as ABRASIONS i've made this point before to you?
How does BL strike Zina at the waistline 'like a baton' or club stick?
They had a makeshift sled (from skis) that they complained was difficult to pull, just guessing it was from that. Or she fell. I've broken my leg and wrist whilst skiing, split a face mask by headbutting the ground... i don't see anything significant in a waist bruise, it's wild speculation to suggest a baton. They'd spent the week cross country skiing the girls with 40kg backpacks, maybe she did it here - http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Krivonischenko-camera-film6-27.jpg .
How does BL bash in a skill... and dont tell me shockwave. I have fellow Marine buddies that were blown up in iraq.
Maybe by exploding in the snowbank, or the den roof collapsing. Either way you're hitting them with superhuman force.
I've no connection to viafanzine btw but the author and i do think along the same lines...
But you're right to challenge the facts there.
Why have the faces and hands of some of them been beaten to a pulp? How does BL strike Zina at the waistline 'like a baton' or club stick? How does BL bash in a skill... and dont tell me shockwave. I have fellow Marine buddies that were blown up in iraq.
Doesn't look like burns in that case
I don't think that's true. Also there are two classifications for lightning, Cloud to Ground (CG) and Cloud to Cloud (CC).
CC is by far the most common and possibly one of the causes of BL.
But BL might not be an accurate term for the DP lights. Glow discharge might be more accurate.
"in the middle phalanx of the fingers 4-5 cutaneous wound with hard edges and charred surface"
You
"Good photo of YK's left hand. I've read that it was black up to the elbow"
Your link
"burns in the left leg and left arm until carbonization"
Look at the dang pics man. The fingers are burned or frost bitten... not the entire hand and not the whole arm. Look at the wrist man...
http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Yuri-Krivonischenko-post-mortem.jpg
That entire site/page is gross exaggeration of the facts with an enormous side order of made up crap... specifically to support a BL narrative. This is exactly what you do and in fact, I think you wrote it.
But lighter here - http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Yuri-Krivonischenko-post-mortem.jpg .
So may have lightened by time the body gets to the morgue....
dont think so... your just seeing frostbite and dark contrast against white snow. http://ibb.co/d3DGJa
Joel K <kllgg2 a cs com>
va USA - Thursday, February 08, 2001 at 02:40:27 (PST)
Note the asymmetric structure, interesting :-
http://www.viafanzine.jor.br/002imag/03_13/dyatlov4_objeto.jpg .
and blow up
http://www.viafanzine.jor.br/002imag/03_13/dyatlov4_objeto2.jpg .
From memory the video of Hessdalen showed a not dissimilar structure in one case...
Err no, science has no explanation for it?...
https://youtu.be/s_HYPjHSApQ
Difficult to see if it's genuine or a fake... but quite interesting.
--- old accounts of ball lightning ? or something like it.
THATS THE OLD BL (BS) WE ALL KNOW AND LOVE ( can and can't, might or might not, will or will not)
Anthropomorphism is a literary device that can be defined as a technique in which a writer ascribes human traits, ambitions, emotions or entire behavior to animals, non-human beings, natural phenomena or objects.
for example -- ascribing intent to ball lightning.
and thanks to LC for mentioning my favorite subject ..........
There were trees from the treeline to the ravine in which you said the explosion happened !
TOTAL BS !!
I got the impression that after the hikers had walked, on their own legs more than 500 m down the slope, SOME OF THEM WERE TARGETED.
Your quoting Ivanov as fact, you must agree with him !
1) a general map of WHERE in the Urals the DPI occurred, showing the relation to cities and rivers -- since my knowledge of Russian geography is limited I need to learn the relationships of various areas; this might help in ruling out some of the crazy theories -- like that "escaped gulag prisoners" killed the hikers (and then took nothing)
Note: that huge gulag closed several years earlier and seems to be too far from the DPI.
2) specifically -- the map has to show me how distant the DPI is to Norilsk -- a mining town -- one of the largest and which until the early 1950's contained the notorious Norillag.
Norilsk Corrective Labor Camp (Russian: Норильлаг, Норильстрой, Норильский ИТЛ) was a gulag labor camp set by Norilsk, Krasnoyarsk Krai, Russia and headquartered there. It existed from June 25, 1935 to August 22, 1956.[1]
Initially, the Norillag labor force was responsible for the construction of the Norilsk mining-metallurgic complex and for mining copper and nickel. Its activities gradually expanded into virtually all economical functions of the region, from fishing to "reconstruction of the house where lived Comrade I.V. Stalin in exile".[1]
Starting from 1,200 inmates in 1935, its numbers jumped to 9,000 in 1937 (the onset of the Great Purge) and peaked in 1951 at 72,500, housed in 30 camp sections. Memorial estimates the total number of its inmates over the history of the camp at 400,000, with about 300,000 being political prisoners. The geography of this camp system included the Norilsk area, including Dudinka and Kayerkan, as well as more remote places, including Krasnoyarsk and some agricultural camps in Kureika (village), Atamanovo and Shushenskoye
Initially the construction activities were handled by the Norilstroy (Норильстрой), while Norillag supplied the workforce and some infrastructure.
In 1953, shortly after the death of Joseph Stalin, the Gorlag camp of Norillag system was the place of the major Gulag revolt, known as the Norilsk uprising.
It was closed in 1957, together with most of the Gulag system.[2
Norilsk is located between the West Siberian Plain and Central Siberian Plateau at the foot of the 1,700-meter (5,600 ft) high Putoran Mountains, on some of the largest nickel deposits on Earth. Consequently, mining and smelting ore are the major industries. Norilsk is the center of a region where nickel, copper, cobalt, platinum, palladium and coal are mined. Mineral deposits in the Siberian Craton had been known for two centuries before Norilsk was founded, but mining began only in 1939, when the buried portions of the Norilsk-Talnakh intrusions were found beneath mountainous terrain.
WHAT I'M LOOKING INTO IS THAT "ABANDONED" MINING VILLAGE THE HIKERS WENT THROUGH. In one of the known photos of that village you can see a light-pole in the distance (far right side of the photo) with two working lights, like street lights.
Note to Anna, thanks for the mining info -- but no mention of nickel and copper mining in that -- any idea WHY ?
Listed under the same section as burnt treetops, warm spot, "rays of warmth" etc.... Right there in the Fireball category without melting anything because it NOW selectively targets objects above a certain height from the ground to be burned etc.
Show me the investigation photographs of these things, or they simply do not exist!
@KMM - seems like this would of been important info, why wait many yrs to mention it.
He did but he was told to close the case and forget everything he knew. This was the Soviet Union in 1959, you didn't disobey orders.. Could be worth reading up on the DPI subject, Ivanov being told to shutup about fireballs is page one, chapter one...
Why couldn't they follow the burn pattern back to the source, it should of got more pronounced !
Err because there weren't any trees beyond the treeline?
If it was the tree TOPS, where was the damage below ?
Ivanov might not have said treetops, not sure.
You just posted the explosion was in the ravine .
That explains why there were casualties, dead birds but no blast pattern. It also explains why the rav4 trauma doesn't include blast injuries such as burst lungs, if the explosion happened in the snow bank it would attenuate the supersonic shockwave quickly.
The investigation team have apparently talked of hiding in their tents to escape rollers, could be what happened at the DPI.
@Anna - "Scientists have concluded that the lightnings strike four times more men than women.Maybe the lightnings like testosterone.I don`t know. "
Probably because they're taller and bigger (more salty water), could be some electrical property at work perhaps. I've read that human beings can can act as aerials and resonate at VHF (female) to UHF (male).
But we know that lightning isn't sentient, "selective doesn't mean sentient just like lightning..." I like that, a good sound bite to copy and paste at KMM and Loose-Cannon ad infinitum
Looks like giving SENTIENT properties to that BS again
Scientists have concluded that the lightnings strike four times more men than women.Maybe the lightnings like testosterone.I don`t know.
MANY years later
"at the edge of the forest" not very specific.
seems like this would of been important info, why wait many yrs to mention it.
Why couldn't they follow the burn pattern back to the source, it should of got more pronounced !
If it was the tree TOPS, where was the damage below ?
You just posted the explosion was in the ravine .
You know what im about to say.... right?
When, in May, Maslennikov and I were examining the scene we discovered that some young fir trees on the edge of the forest had traces of burning, but these traces had no concentric shape or system; there was no epicentre. These confirmed the direction of this force, which was a kind of a ray of warmth, or a very strong, but completely unknown, form of energy, which acted selectively. The snow was not melted. The trees were not damaged. I got the impression that after the hikers had walked, on their own legs more than 500 m down the slope, some of them were targeted.
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (p. 136). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
I think the general idea is that people believe the officials in the investigation team
I believe it was singed treetops. no mention in what location this was, how many miles away. could of been from REGULAR lightning if it was at all
Dont hate the messenger. Its not my fault the BL people built a narrative based on unsubstantiated reports, claims, and pure conjecture in an attempt 'to make it fit'.
Im SO intimidated!!! WHERE IS MY MAMA!?!?!?
Ill be your huckleberry. =)
I think the general idea is that people believe the officials in the investigation team."
translation: I believe every wild ass story that came from college student hikers and the like.....'if' it fits my narrative.
All crap.... you speak as if these are official evidence within the case files. They are not. Its all crap, not factual evidence.
"Typing on your keyboard?"
Yeah, but NOW is the perfect example, and I am NOT the only one in this boat. BL BL BL BL BL BL
99.99% of my dyatlov free time goes towards trying to figure out how you came to all your conclusions based on..... crap. Someone has to point out most of your explanations are based on selective cherry-picking of BS reports etc.
Again... Why you feel the need to over exploit unsubstantiated information as fact is beyond me. Quite the imagination!
I like it, now if you set that to music it could catch on.... Maybe add it to your video.
Burnt tree tops
I think the general idea is that people believe the officials in the investigation team.
How/when is anyone supposed to discuss OTHER possibilities
Typing on your keyboard?
Dude... 99.99 percent of this thread is BL BL BL BL BL BL.... oh, here is some more BS...I mean BL.
How/when is anyone supposed to discuss OTHER possibilities when BL is suckin up all the available bandwidth?
NOW HEAR THIS.... BL IS THE ONLY THEORY. THE GOD-SQUAD HAS SPOKEN!
WHERE IS THE PROOF THIS EXISTED?? WOULDN'T YOU THINK SOMEONE WOULD HAVE TAKEN A PICTURE OF SAID TREETOPS?? PERHAPS DRAW A FREAKING MAP.... TAKE SOME MEASUREMENTS ETC... YOU KNOW>>>> DOCUMENTATION OF AN OFFICIAL ORDER!
YKs LEG..... OH, YOU MEAN THE GUY FOUND NEXT TO A FREAKING FIRE!?!
@KMM - where is the blast pattern ? An explosion of that size would of leveled trees
Not if the explosion was IN the ravine snowbank.... The blast would go mainly up in the air harmlessly. Unless you were sat in the snowbank of course, then it's not so harmless.
Where are the electrical burns from the BL ?
Burnt treetops? YK's leg?
I ask again :
KMM 01-09-2017 23:40 (GMT)
john wolfe : as exploding with great acoustic force,
This would entail an explosion, where is the blast pattern ? Where are the electrical burns from the BL ? ( BL = BS
An explosion of that size would of leveled trees
"ball lightning must be the God particle, it can do miracle's !"
Laff... didnt you see my BL video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33Pa0L6ZKFA
SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE
Do not expect anyone to look at that load of manure and explain THEIR theory as if it were facts that dont jive. Total BS.
"WHERE IS THE PROOF THIS EXISTED?? WOULDN'T YOU THINK SOMEONE WOULD HAVE TAKEN A PICTURE OF SAID HOT-SPOT?? PERHAPS DRAW A FREAKING MAP.... TAKE SOME MEASUREMENTS ETC?? "
http://www.viafanzine.jor.br/site_vf/pag/5/dyatlov_part04.htm
and the relevant images are :-
http://www.viafanzine.jor.br/002imag/03_13/dyatlov4_cedro.jpg
Translation
Location of the incident. From the back, is the promoter Vassili Tempalov and Evgueni Maislennikov. The blue rectangle indicates the
tent installation; the pink oval shows the boundaries of the icy stain near the entrance of the tent; the green line shows the route
of the escape from the tent unto the cedar; 1 - folded tent; 2 - dyatlovtsy backpacks and skis; 3 - icing, 4 - cedar.
http://www.viafanzine.jor.br/002imag/03_13/dyatlov4_nodoa.jpg
But not an iota of evidence"
BINGO
Its the same as scientist needing to justify continuing funding... In the early 80s it was "global cooling".. proved false. Then it became "global warming"...... false. Now its the term of all terms you drive a false narrative with the ultimate in plausible deniability.... "Climate change"
Its the same crap
"This is the same as Loose-Cannon, you have a theory but no details. That is the same as not having a theory!"
I call BS... one does NOT need to invent fantastical scenarios to explain the unknown. This is something one does to force their narrative into the realm of possible when not needed. In fact, it usually drives the theory into more and more of a fantastical implausible scenario. Some people haven't learned how to simply state the words "I dunno". I can easily come up with explanations for any given circumstance within a theory, but that would be compiling a theory based on mostly conjecture.... some thing you tend to do ALOT, and I will likely not.
"Absolutely, but the three heads photo has it just outside the tent (as does the hot spot)"
OMG... The photo is crap... NOBODY KNOWS WHAT THAT EXPOSURE IS!!! "Hot-spot" Oh for frick sakes... WHERE IS THE PROOF THIS EXISTED?? WOULDN'T YOU THINK SOMEONE WOULD HAVE TAKEN A PICTURE OF SAID HOT-SPOT?? PERHAPS DRAW A FREAKING MAP.... TAKE SOME MEASUREMENTS ETC??
You are STILL presuming unknowns and conjecture as FACT. Then you have the go-nads to act as if WE have to explain our theory based on YOUR (quite possibly false) interpretation of facts.
This echo-chamber you call a discussion thread is completely off the rails into the unknown based on a pile of steaming poo.
Yes
"But not an iota of evidence " - there's plenty on youtube? There are thousands of accounts historically.
Here's a ink i've given you before - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-37843273 .
Well, which is it ? it can or it can't, it might or it might not, it will or it won't, it does or it doesn't....... must be pretty easy to make a theory about BL when you can pick and choose what you want it to do!
But not an iota of evidence
Not good enough, your theory has to explain the facts possibly by giving all the scenarios that fit. How did the den get there? Well there were four seats in it and there were four bodies found just a few meters away, three of them from high energy (superhuman force) trauma. So an explosion coupled with a collapse of the den roof fits. If you want to contest that then you have to explain a different cause for these strange injuries.
This is the same as Loose-Cannon, you have a theory but no details. That is the same as not having a theory!
"You are giving sentient properties to ball lightning ! "
No John puts this well, if lightning strikes you under a tree it's not because it "meant" to do it. It's just following the laws of physics.
9 hikers ARE NOT going to leave their tent undressed because they see a light in the sky, that is a totally laughable idea !
Absolutely, but the three heads photo has it just outside the tent (as does the hot spot). If the BL = microwave soliton theory is correct then it could be getting very hot in the tent, it could be getting very noisy (BL witnesses talk of rattling) and there could be pain possibly from burns.
We don't know they dug a den.
I don't know the details of how everything went
down .
You are giving sentient properties to ball lightning ! 9 hikers ARE NOT going to leave their tent undressed because they see a light in the sky, that is a totally laughable idea !
So your theory is that :-
1. they were thrown out of the tent by robbers who occupied the tent.
2. although the students were lightly dressed and now face death by hypothermia as a result of being forced out they don't think the robbers are nasty enough to come and kill them so they light a fire visible from the tent area.
3. 4 of them including a WW2 veteran build a den 70m from the fire with a trail of footsteps leading from the fire to the den. But there is no reason to think that the robbers would want to kill them oh no.
4. then the robbers come and kill 6 of them. 3 of these deaths are stated by the pathologist to require energies consistent with a car crash or bomb.
5. 3 of them escape back to the tent but the robbers pursue these 3 and somehow prevent two of them reaching the tent forcing them to die of cold (RS collapses from head injuries).
6. robbers clear up the area of all signs that they were there well enough to fool investigation teams from the police and kgb.
Sorry guy if that's your theory then it's a farce. Even if the students were that naive, a WW2 veteran and assumed KGB agent wouldn't have been.
"The existence of the fire rules out a sentient threat". Do you understand that?
Loose-Cannon does that's why his murder theory is internal to the group although he's a little light on the detail for instance just how the ravine 4 were killed.
@Loose-Cannon - "I think Nigel is a pretty intelligent guy."
At last something we can agree on.
I see. Welp, it goes in-part with overlooking things that do not fit his narrative.
"are you that dense ?"
I think Nigel is a pretty intelligent guy. He just refuses to acknowledge any flaws within the BL narrative, and will not accept any other possibilities other then BL.
Yeah but the very question he ask was already answered in the original comment I posted.
I think Nigel is a pretty intelligent guy. He just refuses to acknowledge any flaws within the BL narrative, and will not accept any other possibilities other then BL.
Bwahahahaha. Fixed it. God I hate this layout.
@KMM - err the robbers didn't do any robbing...
No, because they were not there to do any robbing. The hikers just thought they were going to be robbed. Thats why they built the fire !
are you that dense ?
From the official interview from Ivanov and the pathologist :-
"Question: How is it possible to explain the cause of the damage to Dubinina and Zolotaryov? Is it possible to combine them into one cause? Answer: I think the character of the wounds on Dubinina and Zolotaryov – a multi-splintered fracture of the ribs – on Dubinina were bilateral and symmetrical, and on Zolotaryov were one-sided. Both had haemorrhaging into the cardiac muscle with haemorrhaging into the pleural cavity, which is evidence of them being alive [when injured] and is the result of the action of a large force, similar to the example used for Tibo. These wounds, especially appearing in such a way without any damage to the soft tissue of the chest, are very similar to the type of trauma that results from the shock wave of a bomb.
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (pp. 99-100). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition. "
off the top of my head google :-
Longdendale lights
Spook lights
Brown Mountain Lights
Will o the wisp
Boitata
Hessdalen
Naga lights
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_ghost_lights .
Minerals from the Ural Mountains
Andradite-23893.jpg Beryl-md20a.jpg Platinum-41654.jpg Quartz-34654.jpg
Andradite Beryl Platinum
"Q. So if they were forced out of the tent in their socks by murderers why did they let them light a fire?
Q. Why did they let them build a den for four people?
Q. Why didn't they kill the last three?
Q. Why did the (approx) 30 strong investigation team not recognise signs of their footprints, ski tracks.?
Q. Why would the group cut several slits on one side of the tent but not the other side?
Q. What's the explanation for the SZ photos? Random damage that looks exactly like an eye witness account?
Q. Why did an experienced police detective not continue with this theory if it is so MUCH more feasible?
Q. Why did the pathologist say that the ravine4 injuries were only consistent with the energy in a car crash or bomb shockwave?"
The above questions are not posed to me, my theory, nor would they apply. My murder theory involves no outside persons. But lets have some fun.
#1, So if they were forced out of the tent in their socks by murderers why did they let them light a fire? BECAUSE MURDERER/S DIDN'T FORCE THEM OUT OF THE TENT, THE TREAT CAME FROM WITHIN THE GROUP.
#2, Why did they let them build a den for four people? PLEASE REFER TO #1
#3, Why didn't they kill the last three? REDUNDANT... PLEASE SEE #1 AND #2, AND HOW THE FRICK DO YOU KNOW WHICH WERE THE LAST TO DIE YET ALONE THE ORDER?? SOUNDS LIKE MORE BL MEGA-REACHING TO THIS GUY!
#4, Why did the (approx) 30 strong investigation team not recognise signs of their footprints, ski tracks.? OMG, PLEASE SEE # 1,2, AND 3
#5, Why would the group cut several slits on one side of the tent but not the other side? THE PROBLEM HERE IS YOU STILL REFUSE TO ACCEPT THE POSSIBILITY THE TENT RECEIVED ITS CUTS VIA ANY OTHER MEANS OTHER THEN WHAT FITS YOUR NARRATIVE.... DID YOU READ THE DAMN DIARIES? ANOTHER EXAMPLE OF SELECTIVE DATA MINING! SUCH A STELLAR INVESTIGATOR YOU ARE.
#6, What's the explanation for the SZ photos? Random damage that looks exactly like an eye witness account? THERE IS NOTHING RANDOM OR RARE ABOUT FILM DAMAGE AFTER BEING SUBMERGED UNDER WATER AND AROUND A ROTTING CORPS NECK FOR MONTHS. THE VERY FACT YOU SEE THIS AS SUCH DEFINITIVE EVIDENCE IS TROUBLING TO SAY THE LEAST.
#7, Why did an experienced police detective not continue with this theory if it is so MUCH more feasible? OH, LETS JUST TAKE A LOOK AT WHY THIS AND WHY THAT.... THE GUY WAS APARENTLY A RETARD JUDGING BY THE WAY THE INVESTIGATION WAS HANDLED AND THE APPARENT LACK OF DOCUMENTATION THAT MAY BE CRUCIAL TO THE CASE. THE GUY IS AN IDIOT..... HENCE THE REASON WHY ITS STILL UNSOLVED!!! WHY IS THE OFFICIAL CAUSE OF DEATH NOT CLEARLY IDENTIFIED AS BL? BECAUSE DECADES LATER THE FART SAYS 'BL' AND PEOPLE LIKE YOU BUY IT HOOK/LINE/SINKER. WAY TO THINK FOR YOURSELF!
#8, Why did the pathologist say that the ravine4 injuries were only consistent with the energy in a car crash or bomb shockwave? WHERE IS THIS "SHOCKWAVE" REPORT??? IF YOU THINK A CAR CRASH IS THE ONLY THING CAPABLE OF CAUSING THESE TYPES OF INJURIES, YOU NEED TO GET OUT MORE. i ALSO FIND IT HILARIOUS THE BASHED IN SKULL IS NO OFTEN OVER LOOKED AS KEY EVIDENCE AND SOMEHOW ATTRIBUTED TO A 'SHOCKWAVE', OF MAGNETIC MICROWAVE RADIANT TRANSLUCENT CONDUCTOR FLUX-CAPACITOR LIGHTNING BOLT THUNDER-CRACKIN HOB-KNOB..... BUNCH OF BOOBOO BABLE HORK SPIT, THANK YOU MAY I HAVE ANOTHER. LETS PICK UP A ROCK OR BIG FREAKING STICK.... SEE WHAT HAPPENS. KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID RIGHT!?!?!
HOWS THAT, WHAT I SAY, WHO ME? WHERE? OH LOOKIE, A SQUIRREL!!
"@John - like if the 2yuris were burnt at the tent? "
who / what are "the 2yuris" -- are they the two with more extensive burns, who were found around that fire behind the cedar tree?
I think your dinosaur theory had more detail...
ALSO: we actually do not have any evidence they walked calmly down the hill -- there are too few photos of footprints (I've seen only two) and not much said about the nature and organization of these foot prints -- yes, they all went in one direction; yes, they seem to take careful steps -- but recall they were more or less BAREFOOT in Siberian winter -- at night -- in the dark -- "running / walking down a rocky hillside; and some of the injuries are consistent with falling and or tripping over said rocks. I also note that Nigel's post of a photo of the area, made around the day the tent was found, shows that the area was trampled by the search party, obliterating much of the foot-step evidence. I, for one, think they ran like hell, at least for an initial distance (written reports and diagrams show they began to diverge and then reorganized -- but they also ran in and over each other's foot steps -- confusing the evidence. Perhaps they slowed down after an initial sprint.
remember: no one knows what BL is -- there are many theories and hypotheses -- but no one has a good idea about how BL can be created in a lab, or studied. This is quite a problem, as the only way to study BL is to go where it was seen on multiple occasions and hope to see it / study it --- so far no one has done this. This, for instance is why I am so interested in that "abandoned village" the hikers photographed -- photos show newly constructed buildings 1/2 BUILT (not falling down) and then abandoned -- WHY ? -- was it a bad economic decision? -- or were there other reasons? -- such as ball lightning occurrence in the Winter months (we also do not know for certain that the village was permanently abandoned as I point out that in one photo you can see what looks very much like running electric lights on a pole -- street lights -- perhaps the village was only left for the Winter -- note that in another photo someone is holding up a drilling core)
re: could there be another phenomena that is "mistaken for ball lightning"? --- however, since we know very little about BL -- there could be several manifestations which appear to be BL, but are either not BL, or that BL comes in different forms. (some explode, some do not, this is kind of like regular lightning, which comes in different forms but is not St. Elmo's Fire, which also is definitely NOT ball lightning. However all three are related in that they are all natural atmospheric electrical phenomena. ALSO: recent studies and observations show that lightning occurs fairly often (2-3 million lightning strikes per day for the Earth) and that BL occurs about once for every million regular lightning strikes (or, several times per day - somewhere on Earth) That is why I am interested in the tragedy here -- that is, trying to identify places where there are an anomalous number of BL sightings) (more on this later)
Q. Why did they let them build a den for four people?
Q. Why didn't they kill the last three?
Q. Why did the (approx) 30 strong investigation team not recognise signs of their footprints, ski tracks.?
Q. Why would the group cut several slits on one side of the tent but not the other side?
Q. What's the explanation for the SZ photos? Random damage that looks exactly like an eye witness account?
Q. Why did an experienced police detective not continue with this theory if it is so MUCH more feasible?
Q. Why did the pathologist say that the ravine4 injuries were only consistent with the energy in a car crash or bomb shockwave?"
These are just 'unknowns', and only really apply to the 'outsiders' murder theory. In my opinion, the list of unknowns and wild explanations for them in reference to the BL theory are in much more abundance.... But its still one of my favorite. =)
I think the theory of Ball Lightening is as absurd & ridiculous as some of you find the murder theory. I don't understand how anyone can actually consider the lives of 9 people being killed by ball lightening/fire balls. Why so many various forms of injuries then? I would think the BL would have "killed" them all in the same way or similar. The BL theory is as stupid to me as some of you feel the murder by humans theory.
Note to those who hold with the murdered theory, this image shows the stupidity of the proposition, that after being chased from the tent by armed men to die in the cold they then lit a fire down there "but behind the cedar to hide it"... https://www.aquiziam.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/dyatlov_pass_the_flight.jpg .
By your own reasoning : after being totally panicked enough to WALK away for a mile, you are going to light a fire so the BL can come chase you around ?
Note to those who hold with the murdered theory, this image shows the stupidity of the proposition, that after being chased from the tent by armed men to die in the cold they then lit a fire down there "but behind the cedar to hide it"... https://www.aquiziam.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/dyatlov_pass_the_flight.jpg .
Your not going to stand around and FREEZE while waiting for a group of robbers to leave. What they thought they were, robbers
Its not a super rare phenomenon requiring fantastical explanations. Its just not as mystical as a fireball.
I think its completely up in the air and could go any which way. I would have to lean more heavily on the 'internal' theory rather then strangers from outside the group killing them.
What did come to my attention (in her book) is this - https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Y_IKDYrZANI/maxresdefault.jpg .
N.B. this isn't recorded on this site and i'm guessing #27 is erroneous.
Looks like Slobodin got a shot in as well as YK. Nothing like as good as SZ's, which strengthens my view that his camera or training was way above amateur status.
Also she states that there are about 30 images with nothing on them other than what is seen when magnified as in SZ's photos. So it would seem this set came from more than one camera and that they were clicking away.
Absolutely, as said before the luxury of the BL theory is that it can easily be made to fit the facts because little is known about it.
However the little that is known about it does create a theory that works. It seems to target metal and people and can burn and can explode.
So it gives you a complete solution to the DPI and then there are the photos, eye witness reports...
Now that doesn't mean it's the only solution. But what's fascinating about the DPI is that all of the other candidates are stumped by the existence of the fire, which rules out a sentient threat (imo).
@John / Anna - yes the slits are interesting. Particularly if the set of photos is genuine (i.e. material not removed by authorities), they cut slits but didn't take more pictures except for one (SZ) and possibly another (YK). I don't think the damage to the tent from the slits is a big issue, they were used to repairing it and this was a historical moment (photographing BL for the first time ever afaik). Then something happened and they immediately exited. Imo that something might be connected to the 2Yuris. They seem to have died at least an hour before they were turned by others but they have much more frostbite.. This is hard to explain. Possible answers are (1) that they spent too long up the tree exposed to the wind chill or (2) it wasn't frostbite but charring from burns.
In the last post I left them in the tent after something bad happened -- something bad which caused injury (and maybe death) to some and frightened the hell out of the rest. So scared that rather than go outside again, they would slit their only tent to see if it had gone away, and how far. But it didn't -- or more likely, there was more than one ball of exploding light; and it (or those) hadn't exploded but was (were) hovering around (I've actually interviewed two hikers from the USA who were in two side by side one man tents and caught in a lightning storm at a campsite and they reported that after about 15 minutes of regular lightning it got quiet and they were then aware of some balls of light hovering around the area where they were, they could hear a humming-buzzing sound and the light kept moving. Lucky for them, they did not move or try to get out of their tents, and the balls of light left the area) But this was not what happened to the 9 hikers -- and it was THEN that a ball of exploding light (the ball lightning I keep pushing) entered the tent; most likely attracted to the metal stove. (in videos of what looks like ball lightning it sometimes goes straight for metal - usually an electric power line, or a line to ground) Already scared to death, the hikers do what seals their fate -- they slash their way out the far end of the tent (the other slashes were done by the search party in an attempt to find -?bodies ?) and run as fast as they could barefoot down a rocky and frozen Siberian hillside. The wind was most likely pushing them downhill, from the back, as the small drifts show in all the search party photos seen so far, AND in the two videos I've posted of winter-time conditions. (see my post for 08-14-2017 22:54 (GMT) below) The only problem is that they ran toward the down hill side of their tent site and the stash of extra clothing and food was the other way and about the same distance. I think that once committed to escaping the balls of light nothing else mattered -- it was run away or die there -- what would you do? -- I think I would do the same. Following whoever was in the lead. Dyatlov ? Only then would the hikers realize that they had to warm up and / or get back. In the end, neither was possible and all were dead by daylight. A burned out flashlight was found about half-way down the slope -- a marker to return by? -- and three of the nine were found in a position that indicated they would have returned to the tent, if they could and / or if the balls of exploding light had left. We will never know.
And remember from my previous posts that balls of light have been reported on various nights by various search party and military members -- over a two month period ! Lots of people saw balls of light, and some heard them explode !
We have the reports of the first of the search party to get to the tent, that there was a line of urine, from someone relieving themselves just one meter outside the tent -- I think he/she saw balls of light and called out to the eight inside to come look at the strange lights -- some brought their cameras out to photograph the balls, others just watched. In fact this exact same behavior was reported by one of the parties who reported the balls of light -- they said they were outside and saw the balls and called out to their friends in their tent to come out and look. (they were unharmed, but amazed by the sight) So I would say it is likely the 9 hikers did so also. Only that time, the balls came toward them (ball lightning is unaffected by wind but might be effected by gravity or terrain) The military reported the balls moving downhill. (toward them)
Getting back to the hikers -- some of whom were looking and others were photographing the balls of light. Krivonischenko's camera, #33 of the second roll, called "film no, 1" (was found in camera) shows what looks like a ball of light very close and moving quickly toward the camera -- thus it is blurred and out of focus. Something happened, because those films have 36 frames, he could have taken a few more pictures, but did not. Zolotaryov's camera also had three photos of what could be called balls of light -- in one the ball is very close and you can see what might be the tops of three or (4 or 5 overlapping) heads called frame #1 but I think the order was confused as the camera / film was damaged (when Z. was found, his camera was found around his neck on its strap) frames # 7 and 8 show what looks like the same ball of light (same shape) getting closer. I think #1 is after #7 and 8 and is the same ball of light. This is also his last photo taken -- something happened, or he would have taken more.
Remember - ball lightning can explode with great acoustic force -- if it went off that close to the hiker's heads it might account for the skull damage seen. And that might also chase the remaining half-clothed hikers back into the tent. Leaving the injured outside? or dragging them with them back to the supposed safety of the tent. SO THEN THEY HAD TO SEE IF THE BALLS OF LIGHT HAD LEFT THE AREA -- or not. Did the ball continue on down the slope? -- or were there more than one ball ? We only know that slits were reported only on one side of the tent (same side as the large top to bottom slits) -- on the downhill side.
And remember from my previous posts that balls of light have been reported on various nights by various search party and military members -- over a two month period ! Lots of people saw balls of light, and some heard them explode !
We have the reports of the first of the search party to get to the tent, that there was a line of urine, from someone relieving themselves just one meter outside the tent -- I think he/she saw balls of light and called out to the eight inside to come look at the strange lights -- some brought their cameras out to photograph the balls, others just watched. In fact this exact same behavior was reported by one of the parties who reported the balls of light -- they said they were outside and saw the balls and called out to their friends in their tent to come out and look. (they were unharmed, but amazed by the sight) So I would say it is likely the 9 hikers did so also. Only that time, the balls came toward them (ball lightning is unaffected by wind but might be effected by gravity or terrain) The military reported the balls moving downhill. (toward them)
Getting back to the hikers -- some of whom were looking and others were photographing the balls of light. Krivonischenko's camera, #33 of the second roll, called "film no, 1" (was found in camera) shows what looks like a ball of light very close and moving quickly toward the camera -- thus it is blurred and out of focus. Something happened, because those films have 36 frames, he could have taken a few more pictures, but did not. Zolotaryov's camera also had three photos of what could be called balls of light -- in one the ball is very close and you can see what might be the tops of three or (4 or 5 overlapping) heads called frame #1 but I think the order was confused as the camera / film was damaged (when Z. was found, his camera was found around his neck on its strap) frames # 7 and 8 show what looks like the same ball of light (same shape) getting closer. I think #1 is after #7 and 8 and is the same ball of light. This is also his last photo taken -- something happened, or he would have taken more.
Remember - ball lightning can explode with great acoustic force -- if it went off that close to the hiker's heads it might account for the skull damage seen. And that might also chase the remaining half-clothed hikers back into the tent. Leaving the injured outside? or dragging them with them back to the supposed safety of the tent. SO THEN THEY HAD TO SEE IF THE BALLS OF LIGHT HAD LEFT THE AREA -- or not. Did the ball continue on down the slope? -- or were there more than one ball ? We only know that slits were reported only on one side of the tent (same side as the large top to bottom slits) -- on the downhill side.
Translation...
You and I are good at picking out only the parts we like and ignoring the rest in an attempt to push a biased agenda. =)
As a natural phenomenon, which is the impetus of dramatic events, these versions include infrasound, winter thunderstorm, ball lightning, and so on. Phenomena. The infrasound was born, ostensibly, when the remains of the rocks were blowing out at the pass, now named Diatlov, by a strong wind. The winter storm was formed at the junction of two atmospheric fronts over the Ural Mountains. And where the ball lightning came from, even the authors themselves do not know, because the nature of the origin of ball moths is unknown to anyone at all.
@KMM - "Who is this eye witness ? Someone miles away saying he saw a light in the sky 3 months ago is hardly a eye witness "
You know, it would be a good idea if you read just some of what i've posted.... :-
Try post - 16-08-2017 13:33 (GMT)
@John - many thanks, glad of your support.
"As an example, we quote one of these noteworthy documents, written by the officer Alexander Savkin himself, the oldest of the respondents: "February 17, 1959, at 6:40 am, while on duty, (observed - A. R.) on the southern side (sky - AR) appeared a ball of bright white light, which was periodically enveloped in thick fog. Inside this cloud there was a brightly glowing dot the size of an asterisk. Moving in the direction of the northern direction, the ball was visible for 8-10 minutes. " As you can see, the content part of this not entirely literate text can be reduced to one sentence: at 06:40 on February 17 in the sky something shone for about 8-10 minutes and moved in the north direction. I must say that the duration of the glow of the mysterious object, named by Savkin, turned out to be minimal. The remaining servicemen indicated intervals of somewhat longer duration (maximum 15 minutes). "
and this: "The testimony of Aleksei Konstantinovich Krivonishchenko narrows the fact that the most significant part of them is to be seen without abbreviations. So, the father of the deceased claimed: "After the burial of my son, on March 9, 1959, at my apartment there were students at the dinner, participants in the search of nine hikers, including those hikers who were on a trek in the north in the end of January-early February , Somewhat to the south of Mount Otorten.There were at least two such groups, at least the participants in the two groups told that they observed on February 1, 1959, in the evening, striking their light phenomenon north of the location of these groups: an extremely bright glow of which A rocket or a projectile. It was so strong that one of the groups, already in the tent and getting ready to sleep, was alarmed by this glow, left the tent and observed this phenomenon.After a while they heard a sound effect similar to a strong thunder from afar. "
"On March 31, a very remarkable event happened-all the members of the search group who were in the camp in the Lozva Valley saw a UFO. Valentin Yakimenko, a participant in those events in his memoirs, described the incident very broadly: "It was still dark in the early morning. The day-old Victor Meshcheryakov left the tent and saw a glowing ball moving across the sky. I woke everyone up. 20 minutes saw the movement of the ball (or disk), until he disappeared behind the slope of the mountain. They saw him on the southeast of the tent. He moved in the northern direction. The phenomenon stirred everyone up. We were sure that the death of the Dyatlovites is somehow connected with it. "
Damaged film that laid in snow and water for 3 months.
Who is this eye witness ? Someone miles away saying he saw a light in the sky 3 months ago is hardly a eye witness
I have copied & pasted your ques. & answered them as best I could. Sorry so long. I only actually read a few of the chapters pertaining to the murders. I skimmed most of it. You really need to read a few chapters yourself. Trust me, it answers more than it doesn't. Plus it's entirely POSSIBLE. The only thing not explained is why were the last 4 an orange color? I read on other sites that a couple of them actuall had GREY hair? Is there truth to this? If they were buried under 12 ft. of snow for 3 months, they couldn't have been burnt by the sun & elements. I'd think the snow would have preserved the bodies.
Anyway, here goes.
Q. So if they were forced out of the tent in their socks by murderers why did they let them light a fire?
Q. Why did they let them build a den for four people?
Q. Why didn't they kill the last three?
Q. Why did the (approx) 30 strong investigation team not recognise signs of their footprints, ski tracks.?
Q. Why would the group cut several slits on one side of the tent but not the other side?
Q. What's the explanation for the SZ photos? Random damage that looks exactly like an eye witness account?
Q. Why did an experienced police detective not continue with this theory if it is so MUCH more feasible?
Q. Why did the pathologist say that the ravine4 injuries were only consistent with the energy in a car crash or bomb shockwave?
1. The murderers didn't know they were going to light a fire or even that they had matches.
They eventually became aware of this by seeing the fire & that's when they realized it
wouldn't be as simple as all 9 dying soon of hypothermia. That was the intent at first.
Declothe them & send them out into the cold so they could all freeze to death. But when
the fire was observed, the murderers walked down the slope & that's when one of them murdered Yuri D. & Yuri K. was still in the tree, not wanting to come down & be
massacred himself, but his frozen hands gave way & he fell, causing great injury to
himself & the murderers left him alone, knowing he'd die soon & they did not need to
force his demise.
2. Again, they didn't "let" them build a den specifically for 4 people. The murderers were
busy going thru the tent, maybe reading the diaries, going thru their cameras, etc. & everything in that tent with a very fine tooth comb. Much time was spent there going over everything. They weren't aware that 4 of them would be so resourceful, much tougher to die
& would build a snow den to help keep them alive. After they realized this would be
tougher than they thought, & other means would have to be met, the murderers crushed
Yuri D's chest by pressing violently on his chest cavity, causing the grey fluid on his cheek.
His body was moved some time after the blood stopped circulating. The other Yuri K. they walked away & did not have to do anything further to him. He would die soon enough. But now they've realized that the rest of the hikers were no longer at the cedar & became aware of the 4 in the ravine doing very well to ward off the cold.
Note: SZ was never a part of lighting the fire. He knew right away the seriousness of what was going on. He attempted with words to stop them from starting the fire, but both Yuri's were the lightest dressed, almost naked & they did not think this was anymore than the
robbers taking whatever they wanted, then they'd leave & then all of them would return
to the tent. They figured all they had to do was keep a fire going to sustain them staying
alive until they could return to the tent. That after the robbers were finished they would all return to the tent then. There were NO signs that SZ was involved with the fire & no burn marks anywhere on him or his clothing.
3. What last 3 are you referring to that they didn't kill? It's said that as Zena was making
progress returning to the tent, she was bashed violently with a baton like instrument, injurying her immediately, slowing her pace & this caused death by hypothermia much quicker. So they even had a hand in murdering Zena.
Those 4 ravine were all murdered violently. Also, R. Slobodin had brain trauma by a foreign blunt object (autopsy). Murder.
Is your 3 that they didn't kill, the 3 that were returning to the tent? Zena, Igor & Rustem?
I covered Zena & Igor didn't need murdered, he would die quickly of hypothermia & wasn't dressed well at all.
4. Special Forces know how to brush away & cover up footprints if need be. The murderers
were thought to perhaps wear snowshoes which doesn't leave prints like bare feet/socks
would. Where are the hikers' footprints leading directly from the tent down the slope
until we see the area where their footprints can been seen? We know that 9 people walked
from their tent directly down slope, yet there are no footprints to be seen coming directly out
of the tent & down the slope until those footprints that were left are discovered. There ARE ways to brush, sweep, eliminate etc. footprints made in snow that need to be gone.
5. A few of the slits looking down the slope could have been made by the murderers as they
spent quite a bit of time in the tent going thru everything & wanted to make sure the hikers
didn't all return & sneak up on them. The murderers also cut huge slits in the tent to ruin
it just in case any of the 9 hikers managed to return. The tent was pretty much useless after
the criminals finished slicing it up.
6. I can't recall about the SZ camera photos. I'm sure it's addressed somewhere.
7. The Russian police simply hushed it all up as they were forced to do by someone(s). They
wanted the case closed asap & it was. For 3 years no one could travel that part of the Ural
Mountains & all the file pieces were hidden away from public view for about 30 years.
To this day, there are still missing papers and documents that will never see the light of day. The Russian authorities did not have a choice. They were commanded by higher ups (maybe even by the actual murderers, to shush it all up & close the case.
8. If the Russian police were forced to not disclose any information, the case files were sealed away for a few decades & traveling there was forbidden for a few years, perhaps the pathologist was forced also or else this is what he thought had happened since he had never seen anything like this before as well. It might have been his best guess without any ex-
perience with injuries such as theirs before & was simply his speculation.
** I will mention also from the book that Kolevatov had his neck snapped (deformed neck) and a violate blow behind the ear, which is a common sign of killing performed by special forces. It's very easy to twist & snap a neck in seconds if you've been taught & know exactly what to do.
but -- and here's the deal -- that post: death on the trail is still worth reading -- though very difficult because of google rough translation of colloquial Russian -- what exactly is "a cowboy" ? -- a cowboy shirt? a cowboy jacket (fur lined including collar)? cowboy boots? -- I'm guessing the jacket, but ...... who knows ? It might make a difference in our interpretation of events.
PLEASE ! Nigel, read it -- I'm plowing my way through it and will take a while -- but in dealing with the rough translation -- it stimulates one to wonder about the exact meaning -- and this is useful.
and yes, those questions of yours need answering.
but, as far as I've got (section 9 - on the tent) I would say that the Russian's story so far (aren't they ALL Russian ?) is still clearly consistent with my ball lightning hypothesis.
"Sorry, but the Russian's theory is so MUCH more feasible than you big bright glowing fiery ball of lights."
So why not give us a synopsis then? Why do i have to trawl through that crap just to argue against it? Why not give us 10 point breakdown of his theory so i/we can demolish it? Let me help you.
Q. So if they were forced out of the tent in their socks by murderers why did they let them light a fire?
Q. Why did they let them build a den for four people?
Q. Why didn't they kill the last three?
Q. Why did the (approx) 30 strong investigation team not recognise signs of their footprints, ski tracks.?
Q. Why would the group cut several slits on one side of the tent but not the other side?
Q. What's the explanation for the SZ photos? Random damage that looks exactly like an eye witness account?
Q. Why did an experienced police detective not continue with this theory if it is so MUCH more feasible?
Q. Why did the pathologist say that the ravine4 injuries were only consistent with the energy in a car crash or bomb shockwave?
Over to you.
I suggest for any reader as interested as I am, and all you here, try to keep at it & read at least the events leading up to & after the "incident". That word doesn't suit what happend at all. That was no incident. I was able to understand enuf of the English version to gain the knowledge of this latest theory. I could almost vision a lot of it & to me, it just all came together & made me feel almost certain that it was entirely possible and would answer all injuries, the tent, leaving w/o proper attire/boots, etc.
This is the theory that I believe is the most accurate, entirely possible scenarios, & answers it all just about.
Those 9 hikers were forced out into the cold, made to leave their tent w/o coats, murdered and by humans, bottom line.
p.s. I believe Mikey translated the book to the English version already. I had no problem clicking on that link & reading. There is a Table of Contents that is very useful if you scroll down to the end. By using this Table of Contents, you can skip certain chapters & concentrate on what you wish to read.
here's the problem with google translate:
from death on the trail (the repost by Sandy) :
" Next to the tent was a pair of skis, and opinions about the kind they were found in were subsequently divided: there are memories that the skis were standing upright, stuck in the snow at the entrance to the tent, but also a certificate according to which the skis were connected And lay on the snow. Away from the tent at a distance of about 10 m, in the snow were found things that belonged, as it turned out later, Igor Dyatlov - a pair of socks and cloth slippers, wrapped in a shirt, a cowboy. "
um ..... almost meaningless ...... so how can we draw any conclusions from THAT ??
Its is a difficult read, but so far I can understand SOME of what he's saying.
I think "going for a pee" is probably right. As i posted, the copy of that same photo I downloaded and magnified shows the eye holes in a ski mask and i don't know any yeti that wear ski mask
colon close bracket =
colon close bracket semi colon =
colon double close bracket =
The brightness could have been from being more overhead before it travelled to the DP.
Emojis :-
close bracket = )
close bracket semi colon = );
double close bracket = ))
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (pp. 103-106). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition. "
i magnified a copy of that photo, sure looks like you can see the eye holes in a ski mask guy is wearing
from death on the trail (the repost by Sandy) :
" Next to the tent was a pair of skis, and opinions about the kind they were found in were subsequently divided: there are memories that the skis were standing upright, stuck in the snow at the entrance to the tent, but also a certificate according to which the skis were connected And lay on the snow. Away from the tent at a distance of about 10 m, in the snow were found things that belonged, as it turned out later, Igor Dyatlov - a pair of socks and cloth slippers, wrapped in a shirt, a cowboy. "
um ..... almost meaningless ...... so how can we draw any conclusions from THAT ??
If anyone can find a better translation robot please post links to it.
Normal Picture from the site:
http://prntscr.com/gf72kv
Sharpend picture without blur and Enhanced:
http://prntscr.com/gf72xx
If you compare this picture of a gigantopithicus or also known as bigfood it is ALMOST exactly the same
here's an example:
English declarative -- WHENEVER I get out of this gulag I'm going to smack that judge upside the head with his own gavel. (direct action)
possible Russian subjunctive -- IF EVER I get out of this gulag I might even try to smack that judge upside the head with his own gavel. (a possible action ) (a choice among several possibilities)
I think I got that right -- I'm not an English major, but did study languages)
They did report a sound like an explosion -- that's what thunder sounds like -- and BL is reported to explode with a sound like thunder.
So we have some fact (balls of bright light and thunder) and we have conjecture (a rocket)
I would be interested in this.
Read this -
"Somewhat to the south of Mount Otorten.There were apparently at least two such groups, at least the participants in the two groups told that they observed on February 1, 1959, in the evening, striking their light phenomenon north of the location of these groups: an extremely bright glow of which A rocket or a projectile. It was so strong that one of the groups, already in the tent and getting ready to sleep, was alarmed by this glow, left the tent and observed this phenomenon.After a while they heard a sound effect similar to a strong thunder from afar."
Looks like that's it. Pity they haven't quantified "After a while".
Mikey 28-07-2017 01:12 (GMT)
What a compelling story. I have read many theories here in the comment section and I may have a few myself. I am currently reading "Murders" by one A. I. Rakitin, located HERE:" https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fmurders.ru%2FDyatloff_group_1.html&edit-text=" ; In his/her synopsis and investigation it is gratifying to actually read about the investigation, the actual autopsies, and other things that are reported incorrectly on this matter. It was quite well done. Thanks for allowing me to post and I hope to join the conversation soon.
photocopying - might be worth looking at some OCR options - http://lifehacker.com/five-best-mobile-document-scanning-apps-1691417781
There is also a report by a woman / expert / about the cuts in the tent -- she concluded that the cuts were from the inside. (and yes, there are cuts from the outside, in the middle, done by the rescuers / searchers who cut open the tent to see if any body was inside) The woman looked at the cuts with an intent to see the fibers and how sharp was the cutting tool(s) and which way the fibers were frayed. I'll try to find this on the internet too, and post it.
Though my story's seldom told,
I have squandered my resistance
For a pocketful of mumbles,
Such are promises
All lies and jest
Still, a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest.
@John - many of the books cataloguing BL sightings are very expensive, i can recommend Ball Lightning: Paradox of Physics by Paul Sagan. I don't agree with everything in the book but he lists 230 unpublished cases from Oak Ridge National Laboratories so all the eye witness accounts are apparently from highly credible staff. From memory the question mark on TWA800 is his idea.
The hikers never reached Otorten. Rescue teams found no trace of the expedition until February 26th, when a band of volunteer searchers found the group’s tent in the snow, collapsed, crumpled, and slit open with razor blades. Five of the bodies were found nearby with the aid of footprints, but the remaining four members of the expedition were nowhere to be found for months.
Oh ? ........ five of the bodies were "nearby" ....... and, the tent was slit open with "RAZOR BLADES" ???? all evidence suggested that there were bad slits from duller knives and perhaps one sharp knife. So think, if someone buys into that razor blade info, the story changes and the reasoning about the DPI is effected. Worse -- someone repeats it as fact and now we have a completely different story. Might as well claim there were yeti foot-prints which were covered up by the KGB and were never photographed as part of a secret Soviet plot to test weapons on expensive students of physics and the sciences in conjunction with the American CIA and space aliens - who used special acoustic blasters to blast them out of their tent -- so their specially trained black-belt experts could beat them half to death, strip them of their protective clothing and then chase them at gun-point down into a ravine so they could freeze to death and thus make it look like a normal / accidental hiking disaster ................. or maybe not ........... maybe the Voguls did it !
Anyway -- I'm convinced that this was just a sad but natural disaster which might have been prevented if only we (they) knew more about ball-lightning.
question - can a BL lightning rod be made and what would it look like ? (considering we don't know what BL really is) ? I'm pretty much done trying to figure out what happened at DPI and am going on to study BL some more.
Which photo's are that ? The defects and dots on the negatives or the 3 gloved fingertips ? That camera laid in the snow and water for 3 months, hardly what I would call "PROBABLE REASON", more like "grasping at straws"
Not really, i guess it depends on what we're doing posting on this site. Personally i'm kicking some footballs around the DPI hopefully with like minded individuals. Maybe you're trying to establish some legal proof and need to rigorously tear ideas down. If so best of luck.
@Sandy - I'll restate for the nth time that the BL theory for the DPI has several versions and the minimal case is that all BL does is scare them away from the tent having photographed it. It doesn't have to directly kill them, they can die from accidents connected with the microwave field that created the BL. There are also other scenarios where BL is more involved in their deaths. We'll never know. However what can be said with full legal rigour is that unless the SZ photos are intelligent fakes then it was there that night and it is THE MOST PROBABLE REASON BY FAR for their rapid withdrawal to the forest.
" Ever wonder WHY a ball of light of any sort has NEVER ever killed a large group of people since? Anywhere? Anytime?"
Read http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2009AGUFMAE21A0308D .
Now google TWA800.
:^)
and yes, I too have noticed that there seems to be no recent case of multiple deaths from OBVSERVED ball lightning -- there are many cases on a yearly basis where people under a tree or elsewhere are killed by regular lightning. Most accounts come from a time (one or two or more hundred years ago) -- what has changed is that now the world has most of its population living around / near strung electrical lines and other metal structures. If you google ball lightning videos you will see several videos which the apparent BL is running along a power line. Also, there are still many reports of BL seen -- or at least what looks like BL.
Nigel -- OK, I get it -- except that those cells are resistant to UV radiation induced apoptosis -- sort of -- what the article says is that they are very quick to repair their DNA -- and this does not apply to other cells (like yours or mine) just these bacteria cells -- which still get damaged by UV, but then repair themselves instead of dying. The UV doesn't switch off cell apoptosis -- it is never triggered by UV.
I have a question about one of the photos:
does anyone see / or mention that it looks like the power is still on the (street) lights at the right side of the photo? see:
https://fotki.yandex.ru/next/users/aleksej-koskin/album/160184/view/394764?page=1
and does that imply that the village was just very recently "abandoned" -- see my comments elsewhere -- I think the abandoned village holds some answer to this whole incident.
Where do you get this stuff from ?
Could be they didn't see what was over the hill? Mountain passes are dangerous for vehicles period, you don't need BL to blame. Really grasping at straws there.
"UV induced cell apoptosis is NOT reversible -- once a cell is dead ....... its DEAD, DEAD, DEAD ....... "
Almost true - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinococcus_radiodurans
?? now that is some evidence there !
1) I shoot you with a big gun and you die;
2) after you die, I then shoot you with a really small gun ....... and you come back to life
I suggest you give THAT the smell test -- does that make sense to you?
This same reasoning applies to the DPI and whether they were killed by some highly unusual but natural phenomena or by some secret Soviet plot (or Yeti, or space aliens, or LSD, or drunkenness, or the KGB, or even American secret agents -- what the heck, I'll even allow that British agent 007 ......)
for what its worth -- here's a good article on UV induced cell death:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3634415/
Q. "Ever wonder WHY a ball of light of any sort has NEVER ever killed a large group of people since? Anywhere? Anytime?"
A. the ufo community think it's happening but is suppressed.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3916757/fbi-probes-deaths-of-thousands-of-cattle-killed-with-surgical-precision-since-the-1970s-blamed-on-satanic-cults-and-even-aliens/ .
It's my belief that this will in time be attributed to a family of phenomena that includes BL.
Ya gotta watch out for those big orbs of bright light and big balls of fire that's hovering in the skies ya know...
I can appreciate all the other theories but folks, at least for me, I believe it's been solved and those 9 hikers were murdered.by.other.humans.
I hope there's a special place in Hell for these evil animals.
The 2nd great mystery is the 1945 (5) missing Sodder children from Fayetteville, NC. I'm still stumped on that one & fear there will never be an answer to that one. It's very chilling and clung to me like the Dyatlov hikers' fates.
p.s. Ever wonder WHY a ball of light of any sort has NEVER ever killed a large group of people since? Anywhere? Anytime? It is impossible for ANY kind of BL or its cousins, to kill 9 people on a snowy slope with a forest of trees below with injuries, hypothermia, etc. etc. etc. as had happened with the Dyatlov 9. IMPOSSIBLE. A BL did not kill any of the hikers.
But, it's your imaginations, so....carry on. I agree with Loose Cannon now too. I understand his sarcasm and side with him on the BL theory.
The UV thing is interesting though, if you irradiate living cells with UV at a strength that kills them, they are now dead and will stay dead forever. Unless you irradiate them again with weaker UV, then a decent fraction of them will burst back into life. Afaik there is no explanation for this.
I was going to finish with "Can't see it being a cure for cancer though" but thought i'd google "uv apoptosis" first.
Some interesting results if very technical.
http://cui.unige.ch/isi/sscr/phys/Perkins-Ort-Tabak.pdf
which, by the way, concludes that anti-particle use is limited by the vast numbers of particles they would need to generate -- something like 10 to the 15th power for any large device -- PER SECOND -- for example, a propulsion device ! Please note that the guy you linked to claims that the Russian / Soviet Government already has such devices - which, if they did, they could conquer the world in one day ! ......... I'm waiting .......
still waiting ......... still waiting ......... falling asleep .......
However he seems to have included links to links to every on-line pdf he could get his digital fingers on -- he also is hawking tons of his own books which (if you can believe it) are nearly 100 in number. All published by his own publishing firm -- which publishes nothing but his books! I went and read some of his stuff and some of his UFO and magic healing associates' stuff -- he just spews out technical gobbli-gook and hopes no one notices ....... I noticed. One of the (hours long) videos he links to claims they have a "100% cure rate for all cancers" simply by shining ultraviolet light on the area (claiming it stimulates cells in some esoteric way) You know, the sun shines on us every day and ....... ultraviolet overexposure is linked to getting cancer and not curing it (that's why we all slather up with sun screen when we go to the beach) Its also why we need that ozone layer up there. (ozone filters out those harmful ultraviolet rays) Ultraviolet light would sterilize the entire planet over time -- which is why we can find no life on Mars. (No atmosphere to speak of, and virtually no free oxygen molecules) Any living organism better be under ground -- and stay there -- which is why we are digging up the soil on Mars (ie. looking for sub-soil microbes -- so far we have found exactly none)
You realize that if ANY of that crap was true ...... everyone on Earth would know his name, like, for instance Albert Einstein. (instead, it is like only a few actually know his name -- his business associates -- I'm betting you didn't )
Now, if the search party found a spectrographic analyzer -- camera with a diffraction grate / lens with / then I would be very suspicious of the real reason for the hikers journey.
Yes i'd agree that the night time shots attributed to SZ seem well exposed. So either he was an expert or the camera was setup by one.
https://petapixel.com/2017/02/17/color-filters-affect-bw-photos/ )
In photographing the BL a filter might be useful if we knew what color the BL would show -- but BL is reported in a variety of colors. If I were doing a photo research of BL, and I only had B&W film, I could set up several cameras with filters and see what the effect was and from that reason backward to deduce the color by the effects of various filters. A VERY CUMBERSOM WAY TO DO IT. Color film would work just as good -- as would my eyes. The filter(s?) seen here would only be used for a daytime image -- its not a dark or thick filter -- its is thin and mostly transparent. Consider the difficulty of photographing a bright light-bulb in a dark outdoor space lit only by the bulb -- expose for the bulb and you see nothing else -- expose for the surrounding area (lit by the bulb itself) and the bulb would be extremely over-exposed. The photos I've seen (and I think I've seen them all) suggests that these images are about as good as you can get without some very expensive, and heavy equipment. The fact that most if not all of the photos are of fairly good exposure makes me think they all had extensive camera experience (otherwise you would see over and under exposures -- which we don't)
@John - you know more about photography than i do but it sounds as if the filter would be useful for shots of BL in the daytime?..
BTW... Yes, Houston.... I don't recommend it right now. There is however thousands of flat bottom boats heading south on I45 all day.
Also: if the Evil Soviet Empire (R. Reagan's words not mine) wanted to test such a weapon -- they wouldn't use it on a bunch of expensively trained science students at UPI -- they'd round up a few prisoners and ........ (smile guys, we're gong to take a group picture !)
Still, I think it can be done -- as nature does it every day. Speaking of Nature - here's an interesting link about ITER:
http://www.nature.com/news/us-advised-to-stick-with-troubled-fusion-reactor-iter-1.19994
But here we go with Ball Lightning (which everyone on this site tends to not like) So far impossible to make -- the trouble is, every time you spin a magnetic field all you get is a photon (ie a light wave/particle) and it runs off at the "speed if light".
Also: (and speaking of spinning) That BOZO mentioned in the Wired article is just spinning tall tales of hand-held weapons (like in Star Trek) to get his hands on government money (and he's not going to get any more!)
from the wiki entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Christopher
" It is disputed whether Christopher existed, and if so whether the name applied to a specific person or was a general title meaning "Christ-bearer" which was applied to several different real or legendary people"
Kind of like the yeti.
"Anna Yordanova 08-27-2017 20:44 (GMT)
In the 60s the US army was trying to weaponize the ball lightning and Air force created a programme called Harness cavalier"
https://petapixel.com/2017/02/17/color-filters-affect-bw-photos/
1. click on the CAMERAS tab.
2. Hit the "F" key whilst pressing the "ctrl" key
3. type filter
Should see 15 matches.
@LC - "It's hopeless. Apparently your stupid if ya don't rush to biased conclusions and keep your mind outta the box. The all mighty BL has spoken.... End of discussion."
Now you're getting it.
Joel played by woofie, Tom as himself, Crow played by Nigel
Headed into Houston for work, so if I dont post again..... 100% chance it was a BL fireball. Don't listen to the news.
your liable to get wet going to houston .
Does that photo of the 3 heads remind you of Mystery Science Theater 3000 ? ( if you have ever seen the show)
"The urge to explain natural phenomena with fantastic stories is why this planet is infused with religious theory that god did this, and god caused that and our god is real and your god is not and lets have a war over religion -- goes back thousands of years if not tens of thousands."
take out natural phenomenon and substitute physical interaction and it explains what you are trying to do
please, if anyone can tell me about that analogue camera no one had seen -- what brand and model --what lens -- what filter(s) -- what film was in it ?
I've got tons of cameras and filters and etc., and have been doing photography since the 50's, so I can try to figure out the purpose of that particular set-up.
I think we all do a shameful disrespect to those students of science / physics by not assuming that they would not be just fascinated by the BL they saw (reach for your camera - quick !) This is just a terrible tragedy of highly unusual natural phenomena -- if you are really interested in this (BL?) tragedy -- how about going out and studying and reading and attending lectures and watching videos and etc. and coming up with some ideas about these balls of light which kill? Balls of light that the hikers photographed just seconds before the tragedy unfolded.
The urge to explain natural phenomena with fantastic stories is why this planet is infused with religious theory that god did this, and god caused that and our god is real and your god is not and lets have a war over religion -- goes back thousands of years if not tens of thousands.
You might as well believe that the universe was created by the Flying Spaghetti Monster From Outer Space -- see:
https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&q=flying+spaghetti+monster+religion&oq=flying+spag&gs_l=psy-ab.1.3.0l4.4905.2109928.0.2114921.30.21.7.0.0.0.367.3472.0j16j0j2.18.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..5.25.3734.6..35i39k1j0i131k1j0i10k1j0i20k1j0i131i46k1j46i131k1.mgeMJykcVAM
here you go:
https://www.venganza.org/about/
Nope not good enough, the group took about 100 photos (at a guess) mainly of each other in the week before but Yudin had never seen this camera. Speaks for itself imo. Massively so. SZ had a camera but it was commited to another purpose. He was found with a notebook in his hand and the camera around his neck. Wake up and smell the coffee here.
Why would the gov need to secretly infiltrate a kiddy hiker group just to photograph strange lights within their own country secluded in BFE. It makes no sense..... Who would they be hiding from?!?"
My theory would be that at least ID and YK knew what the plan was, maybe they all knew but in the culture of the time knew not to record it. Again wake up here, it was a dark night in a snowstorm on the top of the mountain and YK wanted to put his camera on a tripod, they cut several slits in the tent, there are photos from a camera on night settings of lights in the sky from a camera that was not used before that event. The facts scream that there was a purpose to all this.
"I think the BL theory does not need conspiracy embellishing.... Instead of micro analyzing and explaining the outlandish, perhaps leaving the theory to a basic core idea would help it be more appealing to folks."
Good to see your concern for the appeal of the BL theory.
But i don't think it's over analysis to make the case that they had a KGB sponsored mission to photograph the lights. From the looo.ch site it's clear that these things had been spotted from the air, possibly before the DPI event (not sure) and the KGB just thought why don't we start attaching our guys to some of these ski parties to take a closer look. They would be looking at the cost benefit as well, a lot of the missions would be fruitless, these are rare events.
Oh the BL itself, and all the fantastical explaining of the known facts is very extraordinary to say the least.
"Filters - CtrlF on CAMERAS tab.
If the SZ photos are genuine and Yudin's comment is true (that he had never seen that camera) then it's reasonable to suppose that SZ's camera was preset for shooting lights at night and kept aside for that purpose, unless he was an expert (doubtful)."
Like this.... Exactly my point. Why such a fantastic conspiracy theory to explain this just to fit a BL theory. Perhaps he was just a guy with a camera. Again... I didn't know Yudin was the gear police of the bunch. I bet there was many many items carried by the group that he didn't catalog in his memory. This is 9 people with ALOT of crap!
"it soothed concerns wrt defection or contact with US, don't forget that students skiing around the artic circle was very novel, it would have been forbidden 5 years earlier.
- it could have been seen as a fun trip within the KGB, camping under the stars, sharing a tent with girls... It is said that there was another KGB agent in the group "K". AK was buried seperately from the others and YK was clearly interested in night photography i.e. tripod and filters. So the theory would be that SZ was joining a colleague for some ski touring and maybe get some shots of something interesting, something that would bring them to the attention of their superiors, maybe a promotion.
- it was a cheap under the covers solution, no team of military involved, no helicopters, all of that would require lots of bureaucracy and for what "to photograph lights in the sky?"
Again... Or it's just another guy on the trip with another camera. I have filters for my DSLR... Does that equal a conspiracy? Why would the gov need to secretly infiltrate a kiddy hiker group just to photograph strange lights within their own country secluded in BFE. It makes no sense..... Who would they be hiding from?!?
I think the BL theory does not need conspiracy embellishing.... Instead of micro analyzing and explaining the outlandish, perhaps leaving the theory to a basic core idea would help it be more appealing to folks.
There is no way to prove any theory, my goal is to show that all the non BL theories have bigger flaws and hence the answer points to BL.
If the BL theory is semi fantastic, all the others are just fantastic.
Filters - CtrlF on CAMERAS tab.
If the SZ photos are genuine and Yudin's comment is true (that he had never seen that camera) then it's reasonable to suppose that SZ's camera was preset for shooting lights at night and kept aside for that purpose, unless he was an expert (doubtful).
"Also, I do not see any reason why the gov would have any reason to embed an agent within a group of students to get him where he needs to go. Im sure the gov could have gotten whomever they wanted there whenever they wanted, setup shop and hung around as long as needed. No kids required. "
Fair point, this way efficiently solved a number of concerns :-
- it soothed concerns wrt defection or contact with US, don't forget that students skiing around the artic circle was very novel, it would have been forbidden 5 years earlier.
- it could have been seen as a fun trip within the KGB, camping under the stars, sharing a tent with girls... It is said that there was another KGB agent in the group "K". AK was buried seperately from the others and YK was clearly interested in night photography i.e. tripod and filters. So the theory would be that SZ was joining a colleague for some ski touring and maybe get some shots of something interesting, something that would bring them to the attention of their superiors, maybe a promotion.
- it was a cheap under the covers solution, no team of military involved, no helicopters, all of that would require lots of bureaucracy and for what "to photograph lights in the sky?".
As if BL isn't fantastical. ROFLMFAO!
"Boy ! these alien hybrids are "rarer than chicken teeth" (or whatever was said)"
My exact quote is as follows... its self explanatory. Why bother with spinning lies? FYI, its called a metaphor... look it up.
"BL.... More rare then hens teeth and injuries caused by said fireball are dredged up from reports hundreds of years old."
"makes as much sense as just about any of the posts I've seen by several folks on this site"
People are simply turned off by your egotistical biased 'I am the authority' down-talk.... Who died and made you dictator in chief? The more you post, the more I realize the BL theory may be a fantastical load of BS.
I simply pointed out that BL by definition is a...... UFO. In other words.... YOUR the one that is convinced it was a UFO. Oh..... the irony!
any info ? please post -- also interested in the filters found -- any info on which filter was found on the camera ? also -- were there any exposed images on the film in that camera from that night ? -- or did they not have a chance to use the tripod camera ? (that's my assumption -- that events happened too quickly and they fled before the camera could be used)
Also, if you go to some of those UFO videos you might take a close look at some of the faked UFO's which fly close to the ground but don't cast a shadow !
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starchild_skull
and finally:
https://thefieldreportscom.wordpress.com/2017/05/23/final-results-determining-if-the-starchild-skull-is-part-alien/
both mother and father were human / Native American
Boy ! these alien hybrids are "rarer than chicken teeth" (or whatever was said)
Hey ! maybe the starchild killed the hikers -- and then time-traveled, 900 years, back to its grave
makes as much sense as just about any of the posts I've seen by several folks on this site. Why bother with all that pesky science?
https://thefieldreportscom.wordpress.com/2017/03/28/the-16-things-you-thought-you-knew-about-the-starchild-skull-and-what-science-says-about-them-may-surprise-you/
its that damn science thing again !
https://thefieldreportscom.wordpress.com/2017/05/02/the-dna-results-are-in-plus-bonus-starchild-skull-origin-story/
DNA shows human -- and, common hydrocephalus can cause the defects seen
Also, I do not see any reason why the gov would have any reason to embed an agent within a group of students to get him where he needs to go. Im sure the gov could have gotten whomever they wanted there whenever they wanted, setup shop and hung around as long as needed. No kids required.
Anyone else have some interesting ideas?
Also this cut from the inside or outside argument is irrelevant, give me a sharp knife with a fine tip and i could reproduce either standing outside.
Then when they had lost 9 people including sensitive assets there had to be a hugely expensive investigation to at least account for all the bodies. So it fits that when Ivanov started talking about fireballs he was ordered to shut up, close the investigation and never speak of it again. He was getting too close, the hierarchy closed ranks to protect themselves.
note to LC: I've read about knives in several places -- there were "official" knives, and then there are un-official knives -- personal knives -- knives which the searchers may have taken but there is mention of knife-marks at the cedar trees - but no knife found - later found in the ravine.
This is the knife I have doubts about. Where do you get it was found in the ravine ??
In fact, all three Finnish knives were in the tent -- HEY YOU GOT SOMETHING RIGHT !
THIS KNIFE WAS LIKELY FOUND AFTER THE 6th-- SAYS WHO ? CONJECTURE ON YOUR PART
The cuts of the tent appear to be made with two different knives. The first one was rather blunt because it left fringe and even didn’t cut some of the threads. The seond one was made with a very sharp blade. It easily went through the steam and left the edges looking even.
--- FIRST MENTION OF MORE THAN ONE KNIFE --- But it also looks like no one tried to use it to tear the fabric down. What was it’s purpose and did the students have a blade that sharp? ---ASI'VE CONJECTURED ELSEWHERE, VIEWING SLOTS TO SEE STRANGE BALLS OF LIGHT --- Back in 1959 in the former USSR it was a big deal to have a Finnish knife. It was considered as a “cold weapon” and one would need to get an oficial permission from police to have it. --- MENTION OF A THIRD KNIFE, AN "OFFICIAL" KNIFE, THAT IS, ONE FOR WHICH YOU HAVE TO HAVE A PERMIT FOR --- From the Crimianl Case we know that Kolevatov had this kind of permission for his knife. No pictures of this knife and Kolevatov himself (seems like he was a pretty private person in general) which make some people speculate that he was a KGB agent. --- AS KMM DENIES THE PRESENCE OF THE KNIFE (NO PICTURE) SO MAYBE KOLEVATOV DOESN'T EXIST EITHER ... --- We see that Tibo had a knife – he kept it pretty much hidden from the sight but it can be spotted on some pictures. He had no permission for it and thus it was not returned to his family. --- THAT'S FOUR KNIVES MENTIONED SO FAR; AND IT WAS KEPT AND NOT RETURNED TO HIS FAMILY AS PERSONAL PROPERTY. HOW MANY OTHER UN-OFFICIAL KNIVES WERE KEPT AND NOT RETURNED? --- As for Krivonishenko – it seems like this guy was the only one who deliberately displayed his weapon while not having a permission to have it. The knife was never returned to the family for the same reason. --- FIVE KNIVES SO FAR; AND ITS ANOTHER UN-OFFICIAL / UN-PERMITTED KNIFE --- In fact, all three Finnish knives were in the tent. Tibo and Krivonishenko’s knives were found in their taurpalin’s pockets (CC, Vol 2, p.41) (“taurpalin” is a wind proof jacket) which would imply that the knives had never left the tent. --- I'M BEGINNING TO LOOSE COUNT .... I THINK THAT'S EIGHT, AND WE'RE NOT DONE YET. OH, AND THESE THREE WERE THE
ONLY "OFFICIAL" / "PERMITTED" KNIVES --- From Captain Chernyshev’s official statement: ‘It’s possible to surmise that other people had since been by the fire…The trees near the fire had been cut with knives, but we found no knives with the bodies.’ --- AS THE OTHERS WOULD TAKE NOT ONLY CLOTHING BUT TOOLS, IN THIS CASE, ANY KNIFE THEIR DEAD COMPANIONS WOULD NO LONGER NEED --- This is inconsistent not only with the Criminal Case entries mentioned above but also with “The scene inspection report” dated May 6th, 1959, which goes into great detail about everything found there, including number and kinds of trees as well as clothing but never mentions any knives having been found. --- THE LAST FOUR WERE FOUND MAY 3 AND 4 WITH THE REPORT SIGNED OFF ON MAY 6TH, AS YOU MAY BE AWARE, MOST KNIVES ARE MUCH SMALLER THAN A HUMAN BODY AND SO MUCH HARDER TO FIND ! THIS KNIFE WAS LIKELY FOUND AFTER THE 6th --- The document was signed by prosecutor Tempalov and several others including Askinadzi who is still alive and testified about what they had seen there. (CC Vol. 1 pp. 341-343) --- AND HERE COMES THE ONE SENTENCE SPECULATION BY THE AUTHOR (S. OSS) AND NOT A QUOTE FROM A WITNESS NOR A REPORT --- One can guess that Lev Ivanov had a commitment to close the case at any cost and so he made this evidence up in order to explain the situation with the tree pad. --- AS I've COMMENTED ON THIS ONE SENTENCE ELSEWHERE, I'LL LET YOU GO FIND THAT COMMENT ON YOUR OWN --- In fact, we still don’t know with which knife the tent was cut and whether it really was cut from inside. --- THERE IS A REPORT ELSEWHERE OF A WOMAN EXPERT TESTIFYING / AFTER CLOSE EXAMINATION / THAT THE TENT HAD MANY CUTS FROM THE INSIDE / SHE LOOKED AT MICROSCOPIC THREAD TEARING AND SLICE ANGLES, ETC. (I'LL TRY TO FIND IT ON THE INTERNET) --- The most agrumented reason for the assumption can be found in Natalia Sakharova account of the tent expertise. Yuri Kuntsevich, the head of the Dyatlov foundation in Ekaterinburg, said he still doesn’t exclude the possibility that the tent had been cut from outside. According to him, it very well could be that somebody first pierced the tent’s material and than turned the blade of his knife and ripped the fabric through making it look like if it was done from inside. --- UM ..... THAT'S ANOTHER POSSIBLE KNIFE, ONE THAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN USED BY A SEARCH PARTY MEMBER, OR THAT HE/SHE BROUGHT TO THE SCENE. WHAT ARE WE UP TO NOW ? I'VE LOST COUNT, THERE ARE SO MANY KNIVES. IT IS MY GUESS THAT THEY ALL HAD KNIVES, THREE "OFFICIAL / PERMITTED" KNIVES AND MANY UN-OFFICIAL AND NOT REPORTED KNIVES. REMEMBER A KNIFE WOULD BE CONSIDERED BY THE SOVIET STATE AS A WEAPON OF COUNTER-REVOLUTION. THEY WEREN'T ALLOWED GUNS FOR THE SAME REASON.
Note: A UFO does NOT 'have' to mean from another world.
Proposed scientific explanations
There is at present no widely accepted explanation for ball lightning. Several hypotheses have been advanced since the phenomenon was brought into the scientific realm by the English physician and electrical researcher William Snow Harris in 1843,[56] and French Academy scientist Francois Arago in 1855.[57]
My scenarios listed... Without micro details.
1: Human intervention. Whether it be from within the group or foreign to the group.
2: Ball lightning
3: Yeti.... Though I have never really been convinced they exist.
What year did scientist confirm BL as a real and naturally occurring phenomenon?
This is an entertaining 2 hour video that i couldn't stop watching get a few beers in and enjoy. Lloyd Pye making the case for human existence having nothing to do with evolution. It's certainly thought provoking if a "bit" of a leap.
But he makes a very good case for a reclusive hominid still existing. It's estimated that neanderthal man was six times stronger than modern humans.
But for me the biggest indication of "superhuman force" is LD's double fracture on the RHS. That something hit her so hard that her chest fractured twice but only halfway down, indicates very strong, focused transient force to me. A blow to the chest creating one fracture i can believe but once broken it would prevent a second fracture from further blows. So the double fracture came from one action... That was the pathologist's view also, superhuman force like from a car accident or shockwave from a bomb.
Also i know it can't be proved but that SZ received very similar injuries lends to a single event being the cause. It's just how i see it.
Im guessing neither one of us is a qualified 'bone doctor', but I would think this to be completely false. In my young days, I was unfortunate to have witnessed not one... but two skulls get busted just with a fist punch. One crushed the temple area in, and the other caved in the entire eye socket.... It wasn't pretty as a bystander. Now, you go and pick up a good size log, rock, or any other foreign object and these injuries are 100% believable to me. Im sure there are many ways to bust up a chest also... falling out of a tree , or body slamming comes to mind. I wonder what happens when someone boot stomps your chest with as much force as possible. They had on e the most clothing.... remember? Could easily explain the lack of superficial surface cuts. Then again, it would be hard to tell on bodies that were rotting in a freaking river for months.
Dont get me wrong, I have stated many times BL 'could' be the answer here, but I find it somewhat troubling how people can proclaim its the 'only' answer.
This one travelled an estimated 3 miles straight at them https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_lightning#The_Montague
@John the above ball was blue and probably 1metre in diameter or more. I find the LC footage very plausible.
I've read that the chest fractures are consistent with being dropped 60ft. NTB's skull was split cross the base (strongest part). The idea that these injuries could have been produced by experts in hand to hand combat is simply ludicrous. It would be easier to punch a hole right through his head than to split the base. The best guess is that they were crushed which also explains no broken limbs or burst lungs from an explosion. But the main point is that the ravine 4 suffered superhuman force.
The BL theory has several versions, the simplest is that it is photographed at the tent and then stays there preventing their return, the subsequent deaths as a result of den collapse and a debilitating microwave field which is the original cause of the BL.
But it's also possible that the BL subsequently travels downhill and explodes. That's what historical accounts describe.
I am aware of that one line conjecture -- but that is by the writer (S. Oss) and not by the witness -- quoting the one line of conjecture: "One can guess that Lev Ivanov had a commitment to close the case at any cost and so he made this evidence up in order to explain the situation with the tree pad."
My point was that there were many knives.
We can also conjecture that the knife was found after May 6th -- the report date -- when it warmed enough to melt some of the snow.
You are still assuming a knife WAS found. and it was NOT one line conjecture, the previous 7 lines above that mentions the "scene inspection report" and its detailed findings, NO KNIFE !
My point was that there were many knives.
We can also conjecture that the knife was found after May 6th -- the report date -- when it warmed enough to melt some of the snow.
note to KMM: sent note to LC -- but was for you: here it is:
note to LC: I've read about knives in several places -- there were "official" knives, and then there are un-official knives -- personal knives -- knives which the searchers may have taken but there is mention of knife-marks at the cedar trees - but no knife found - LATER FOUND IN THE RAVINE.
your own link says the knife being found was made-up by Ivanov to close the case.
note to LC: I've read about knives in several places -- there were "official" knives, and then there are un-official knives -- personal knives -- knives which the searchers may have taken but there is mention of knife-marks at the cedar trees - but no knife found - later found in the ravine.
Whatever it was, if I have my free will I am going to grab shoes, knifes, axes, something, to take with me ! They had to know they were going to suffer frostbite, amputations, death, leaving unprepared and NOT dressed for the cold.
note to Sandy:
The nine hikers all had small camping knives
Where did you get this ? facts please ! only RS is found with a penknife in his shirt pocket
They were on skies
This site says no other footprints were found !
please show where you got this "fact"
the BL doesn't "stalk" a target like a human / hunter would --- but rather like the way a lightning bolt could "stalk" a person standing under a tree -- a body conducts much better than a tree so any lightning strike would jump from the tree to the human body; and there are many documented cases of multiple deaths from one strike while standing under a tree.
Note that I am not suggesting BL is the same as a lightning bolt -- but that these are related in some way that is not completely understood (mostly because of the much more rare and transient nature of BL)
But the photos /videos look more like some kind of BL (or photoshop) -- Hard to say as the UFO people frequently fake "evidence" and then cite each other's faked photos as fact -- just like the Yeti people do.
Someone said there wasn't any soft tissue found but there was. It's on this site under theories. Read the 1st one, it's by the Russian author. If you kick hard enough & know exactly where to kick, it's very possible to break another's ribs and reduce it to a mass of bones by repeated kickings. It also makes sense as to why but 4 had fatal injuries. They wouldn't die of hypothermia & had to be killed physically.
I remember too that a patch of a military uniform had been found & Yuri Yudin (#10) had never seen it before. I'm sure there's a good way to brush/remove footprints as well.
The nine hikers all had small camping knives (good weapons) and at least three hand axes (very good weapons) (seen any of those "Viking-slaughter-movies" lately? --- or look up old Viking names ... such as "Thorkle the Skull-splitter) and .... AND ! ..... AND ! -- these were nine enthusiastic and in great health and strength Russian youth -- don't you think if the nine were really attacked by anything living (man or animal) there would be Lots-O-Blood everywhere ! ...... there was no blood spilled at any place. Also, there were no other footprints. (other than the nine hikers)
Alright all you Fireball fans. Too bad there are no close-ups or injuries to add to the vid. Im about fireballed out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAyB0XMvAxY&feature=youtu.be )
the interesting part lasts for only a few seconds so please go to 59 seconds in and notice a second fireball -- looks like Ball lightning to me -- the second BL keeps popping in and out of (existence - at least as a visible ball ) I've seen this in other videos as well and wonder if something like that indicates a linked system of charge vortex -- this is seen with normal lightning and is responsible for the discharge path when it connects with its opposite charge (path)
So I'm not convinced those bright blue balls are BL in the sense we have been talking about here -- but they might be and / or might be related -- maybe like a precursor to BL.
Any thoughts ?
Kinda like being grouped to together a mile down the slope of a mountain in whiteout conditions with no additional footprints observed. Are we to believe said killers were able to erase any evidence of ONLY their footprints?
This is why I dont read books like this. You tend to have the author do the thinking for you.
I posted the previous statement.
If true, what happened to half these hikers is even worse than that. I really can't explain how much agony/pain this would have caused. It leaves me speechless at how evil these criminals must have been.
Believe half of what you see and none of what you read.
#3 The tent contents were found in perfect order and not rummaged through in any way."
I agree with these statements,
I think it was cia/kgb transfer of radioactive samples and the scene at the tent was staged.
Tried to make it look like a accident as much as possible after things went wrong.
Political hate speech... ROFL
I run a firearms forum... Take a guess who I voted for.
Stop posting under several names.
You really need to do more research rather then be consumed by a biased book.
#1 I have a high paying job you dipstick.
#2 Nothing was taken/stolen from any of the victims nor the tent.
#3 The tent contents were found in perfect order and not rummaged through in any way.
#4 Her tongue was NOT cut out. She was found months later half decomposed face down in a freaking creek.
Great, another know-it-all.
Ball lightning is known to explode with great force and the pathologist said :-
"Question: How is it possible to explain the cause of the damage to Dubinina and Zolotaryov? Is it possible to combine them into one cause?
Answer: I think the character of the wounds on Dubinina and Zolotaryov – a multi-splintered fracture of the ribs – on Dubinina were bilateral and symmetrical, and on Zolotaryov were one-sided. Both had haemorrhaging into the cardiac muscle with haemorrhaging into the pleural cavity, which is evidence of them being alive [when injured] and is the result of the action of a large force, similar to the example used for Tibo. These wounds, especially appearing in such a way without any damage to the soft tissue of the chest, are very similar to the type of trauma that results from the shock wave of a bomb."
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (pp. 99-100). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
"The 2 Yuris never should have started a fire at the cedar tree."
You don't think that SZ, a WW2 veteran and almost certainly a KGB agent would have formed that conclusion even if the other (highly intelligent) members hadn't?.... The fire is the fact that murders the murder theory...
I believe they saw the fire at the cedar & realized death by hypothermia may not be as simple as they'd originally thought. The gray foam on one of the Yuri's at the cedar is explained by someone sitting on his chest & applying great pressure. Hand to hand combat.
I encourage people here to read "Death on the Trail". A poster here provides the link & the Russian has been translated to English. I did not read word for word so maybe I've missed the really great reason why these criminals would torture these innocents & cause such blinding agony & pain.
@Spielberg - now you're talking, but you didn't include the Eagle + two heads photos in a video titled "Dyatlov Pass Fireball"???
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Elmo%27s_fire
as opposed to the BL cases where the BL causes damage? Here's a link to an abstract -- can't find the fulltext yet:
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2009AGUFMAE21A0308D
as for the incident you mentioned -- could it be that the electrical properties of the wing are different than the fuselage ?
again, the problem is that the two look very similar -- the wiki states that sailors considered St Elmo's Fire to be a good omen --- no one has said THAT about BL -- and St Elmo's Fire is not associated with damage or death in reported incidents.
john wolfe
one last thought on walking vs. running..............
but what evidence there is shows they did not run but walked (proceeded calmly) down the slope. and you have to go by what evidence there is ! Or else write your own story 55 yrs later and craft it your own way.
They can pass through glass windows without any damage or remove the glass leaving a neat hole.
@KMM - there's photographic evidence.
@Loose-Cannon - from memory the rescue team cut the mid panel out to access the interior, but not the end slit on the RHS of the photos.
Suppose you and your eight fellow hikers are attacked by a deadly glowing rabbit (or a yeti, if you prefer) outside your tent -- the rabbit has already bitten three of your friends and so you all retreat back into the tent --- and then the deadly rabbit enters through the tent flap / door and you have only seconds to respond. (fight of flight response) After you slash your way out of the back of the tent (a panic response? or a very rational one?)
My question is: either way, do you calmly walk to your hypothermic demise ??? or do you run like hell ? You already know standing still, outside the tent, didn't work -- that's how the three got "bitten" by the glowing rabbit -- I repeat: standing outside the tent doesn't work.
this is why any discussion of BL is so difficult -- and why it has been so difficult to reproduce in a plasma lab. Hard to tell where primary effects end and secondary effects begin.
https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/ducks-have-teeth.1051979/
Descriptions of ball lightning vary widely. It has been described as moving up and down, sideways or in unpredictable trajectories, hovering and moving with or against the wind; attracted to,[37] unaffected by, or repelled from buildings, people, cars and other objects. Some accounts describe it as moving through solid masses of wood or metal without effect, while others describe it as destructive and melting or burning those substances. Its appearance has also been linked to power lines[38] as well as during thunderstorms and also calm weather. Ball lightning has been described as transparent, translucent, multicolored, evenly lit, radiating flames, filaments or sparks, with shapes that vary between spheres, ovals, tear-drops, rods, or disks.[39]
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/mutant-chicken-grows-alli/
they didn't say if it was a hen or a rooster -- I'm betting on the hen .....
"BL.... More rare then hens teeth and injuries caused by said fireball are dredged up from reports hundreds of years old."
Not that rare - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-37843273 .
Yeti.... Reported sightings like every day.
You'd need to provide evidence for that one, afaik their existence is just conjecture.
Seems to be, the BL perhaps holds less water then...... Yeti!.
I've shown you mine now you show me yours, you can't even prove they exist.
Evidence of BL existing is NOT evidence as to what happened to these hikers.
Fair point.
You cant just dredge up some ships log from 300 years ago and say SEE.. LOOKY...LOOKY... this is evidence as to what happened.
Yes you can.
How does it feel to believe in something less common then..... Yeti?
There is no concrete evidence for Yeti/Bigfoot/Alma etc. As above their very existence is conjecture. This is not the case with BL, it is a proven phenomena with a history of causing fatalities. Further there are recent reports coming from India that fit with the historical evidence.
Big difference.
You know thats funny right thar!!
Glad you're enjoying the debate, it's keeping me entertained, much respect btw.
Cue Last of the Mohicans soundtrack.
"@Loose-Knickers - "mating season of field mice in the area as 'evidence", now you're talking."
I have respect for you and enjoy the debating.... Dont stoop to John The Retards level by following his lead on name replacement.
Supposed to read @John Imbecile and @Nigel the Follower
Just remember... You started this crap by being narrow minded and disrespectful in the first place.
I guess this is what happens when you no longer have an argument. You would be better served not going into exact details about your (less likely then Yeti) BL theory acting as if you you know better then everyone else. The BL theory is a pretty fantastical idea in of itself, why muddy the waters with contradictions and inconsistencies generated by pure speculation covered with layers upon layers of BS excuses?
Don't be a pseudo intellectual.
But i'm with others on the walking downhill theory. It was dark and you can't run down rough ground particularly with a strong wind on your back. Plus they had no need to, whatever forced them to flee the tent stayed there preventing an early return.
@Loose-Knickers - "mating season of field mice in the area as 'evidence", now you're talking.
VERY WELL SAID AND VERY TRUE
here's something that I think you will appreciate, and which will explain loose-drawers (or whatever he calls himself) and probably a few more of the imposters here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAkgkAMpLLg
"more collage kids" I think the work you were reaching for is COLLEGE
Uh... No it wasn't brain-child. The collage rescue hikers drank it... Out of the flask containing it. GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ASS AND DO SOME REAL RESEARCH. Then again... You cannot even read my name correctly, so expectations of you doing so are not high.
Im not talking about the button-up entrance there brain-child, and I told you already.. I don't believe in UFOs of yeti and I happen to have the BL theory as a #2 on my list of possibilities. I do know, the BL theory is being heavily and biasedly pushed by a select few whom seem to see BL evidence in.... Everything! I hate to be the one to burst your little bubble, but the BL theory still has PLENTY of holes..... You just do not want hear about it. NOW HEAR THIS.... JOHN HAS MADE THE EXECUTIVE DECISION ON THE MATTER.
Welp... Lets blow a few more holes in this sucker eh?
BL.... More rare then hens teeth and injuries caused by said fireball are dredged up from reports hundreds of years old.
Yeti.... Reported sightings like every day.
Seems to be, the BL perhaps holds less water then...... Yeti!.
There ya go... BL less likely the Yeti. Happy now? FYI.... Evidence of BL existing is NOT evidence as to what happened to these hikers. You cant just dredge up some ships log from 300 years ago and say SEE.. LOOKY...LOOKY... this is evidence as to what happened.
Unfortunately for John, I have just as much interest in the subject as anyone else. Again, you are not the authority on the subject and people are entitled to what ever the frick they wanna believe. This isn't an authoritarian dictatorship.
How does it feel to believe in something less common then..... Yeti?
quoting L.C. (or whatever): "Yup... Just like the fireball theory. You guys will literally attempt to use the mating season of field mice in the area as 'evidence' of BL. "
----- to which I can only add ...... "huh ?"
as for your other useless trollish comments (such as): "For the record..... We don't even know if that tent didn't get ripped up in KNOWN high winds on this slope for WEEKS before being found. Again... Look at a flag on a pole thats been up a while. God only knows what gear the tent could have scraped against while flappy flap flappin. NOT TO MENTION, Russian forum says the first on scene of tent (more collage kids) literally ripped open the side of the freaking tent to look at the contents. Hmmmmm..... Vodka gooooooood. Remember that sheet? THEY DRANK THEIR DANG ALCOHOL!. "
so my thoughts are: ...... um ....... that was alcohol for cleaning cuts and etc. -- only a complete fool would even think of drinking it in the cold (well, come to think of it, you did !)
and lastly: many comments and etc. are citing other posts and web-sites as if they were fact -- such as that the first military personnel covered up all the "real" evidence of the secret weapons test .......... or the yeti (I forget which)
Enjoy your alcohol ........
--- shows the tent was NOT positioned with opening uphill
--- shows the footprints as seen by the initial investigation --- note that the footprint is like a negative image with the wind blowing away all the loose snow, leaving behind the foot impression -- good enough a month later to show a boot print.
some footprints are closer together than others , showing that some of the hikers might have been injured by that time and walking more slowly; others are much further apart. There are about four clear print-sets (maybe a fifth) showing they walked or ran on top of each other's footprints -- the distance looks like they were walking slowly but as I have much experience walking in sub-zero (Fahrenheit) snow (over 65 years) I would suggest that "walking" prints would show more blurring or dragging of feet as opposed to the hard and straight-down prints seen in these impressions.
(note to loose shorts or loose canyon or whatever you fancy your-loose-self as --- there are many UFO sites for you to troll on, why not go there and spare the rest of us the useless comments -- some of us are genuinely interested in this incident)
"Members of the group walked in a single file with a tall men walking in the back. His footprints partially covered footprints of his friends who walked in front of him. Overall the path gave an impression of organized and uneventful descent down the slope of the mountain. Several trails would deviate from the general direction, but then rejoin the group. Other footprints were also discovered and photographed."
yeah, what he said (Loose-Cannon)
Are you freaking kidding me? In all my years I have never seen a more arrogant bobbleheaded know-it-all king-all-mighty high-horse or straight up asshole statement. Just who the $&@# do you think you are? KMM don't deserve your shit, and I suggest you check the ego at the address bar.
If you feel you have reached this message in error.... Please refresh your browser and go intercourse yourself.
Freakin guy.... Unbelievable snooty holier-then-thou god-complex much?
I don't care who you are, how long you have been post here, or if you climbed Mt freaking Everest, your opinion is NO BETTER THEN ANYONE ELSES.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbZjcKl3Z6o
and THAT was taken on a clear day ! No storm but high winds ! -- scrubbing any deep snow off the hilltop / hillside.
Yup... Just like the fireball theory. You guys will literally attempt to use the mating season of field mice in the area as 'evidence' of BL.
All the russian reports I have read suggest they left the tent on the side facing UP the slope which would be directly towards said BL..... It sure as hell wasn't between the tent and treeline! Also, the footprints spread out away from the tent in all directions before coming together in single file some distance from the tent, and they say WALKING... I would think one think nearly impossible to botch is measurements between foot steps indicating stride.
KMM... The 'running in panic' theory is completely unproven but would conveniently support a BL narrative.
For the record..... We don't even know if that tent didn't get ripped up in KNOWN high winds on this slope for WEEKS before being found. Again... Look at a flag on a pole thats been up a while. God only knows what gear the tent could have scraped against while flappy flap flappin. NOT TO MENTION, Russian forum says the first on scene of tent (more collage kids) literally ripped open the side of the freaking tent to look at the contents. Hmmmmm..... Vodka gooooooood. Remember that sheet? THEY DRANK THEIR DANG ALCOHOL!.
Point being..... Even the 'escape from tent in slashing panic' is suspect for heavy doubt. Hell, blonde chicky in her diary talked about having to sew up all the rips they been putting in it.
There are VERY few facts in this incident.
also, sorry if my years if study intimidates you -- that's your problem not mine.
So ...... how many years have you studied plasma physics ? Have you been to a very cold climate and lived there for years? OUTDOORS ? Have you gone mountain climbing -- or even winter hiking ? even once ? tell me about it or quit wasting everyone's time.
note to KMN -- please provide some links to those "walking calmly" fairy-tales . Most of what is on the internet is rubbish -- whether about this incident or anything else. for example 9 - 11 theories suggest everything from government plots to secret weapons testing to the devil to the Jews to ....... have they mentioned the yeti yet ???
You left out ball lightning......
and another video of winter time (Feb. 5th, 2014) in the area:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qpJi6iNWF0
which shows the snow in the area is not very deep and the downhill path tends to cause the man in the video to walk faster than normal -- imagine running for your life. If you stop it at 1:14 you can see how shallow the boot-prints are and the direction from which the hikers came, The flags mark evidence points - such as bodies.
and yet another video of the area showing shallow footprints and also the snow markings demonstrating the general direction of the wind (downhill toward the ravine) You can hear the wind even on that nice day.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sH-3jOO9QI0&t=152s
here is an interesting comment by :
Carol 06-29-2017 17:20 (GMT)
Really like this website. Very informative. I have worked with trauma patients of all kinds for about 40 years (its my job). I have some thoughts on the patterns of trauma seen in these individuals.
First of all explosion: There are three major mechanisms for explosive trauma to humans. Overpressure: this high pressure wave extends outward from the primary area. As a rule if one person in an area dies from this type of trauma, the others are at equal risk. A tent would not provide protection. Typical of over pressure injuries are blast lung (bloody pulmonary edema, perforated bowel. Cerebral edema but no skull fractures. Perforated eardrums. Usually a pressure wave in air causes lung and brain trauma, while one in water causes bowel injuries.
Shrapnel causes penetrating injuries not really seen here.
note that Carol mentions that a blast tends to give similar injuries to people standing in the same area / spot / side by side / perhaps watching balls of light coming toward them. We have at least two hikers with the same rib-cage injury - and on the same side (standing next to each other - facing the same way) In fact several of the hikers have injuries on the same side (for example: the skull fracture on NTB)
once again: most posts are suggesting we believe in the fantastic (space aliens, Soviet plots or non-existent weapons tests, or yeti ...etc) please read:
https://www.google.com/search?site=webhp&source=hp&q=occam%27s+razor+definition&oq=occam%27s+&gs_l=psy-ab.1.2.0l2j0i131k1j0.3354.6347.0.13622.9.8.0.0.0.0.267.1228.0j6j1.7.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..2.7.1226.0..35i39k1j0i20k1.SIVSGrhXKb8
and note that as you add layers of nonsense to a theory -- that theory becomes increasingly improbable and approaches impossible .
"Once again: read ALL of my posts as I have already answered many of these questions before"
I didn't know I was talking to an expert who knows it all.
How was all this body heat they expended by running in deep snow replaced ? Why do the tracks that were there not show them as running ?
Once again: read ALL of my posts as I have already answered many of these questions before.
note to KMN: the photos of the footsteps show they were running and not walking calmly -- also, (as I have done this in winter conditions) running generates a lot of internal body heat and would have helped keep the hikers alive in the snow longer than we would expect -- they die when they stop running.
No one walks calmly from certain death / injury -- you wouldn't either.
Everything I have read says proceeded down the slope CALMLY
here's the gist of it: After studying BL for over 2 1/2 years I think at least most of it is generated by a rapidly spinning Magnetic field -- set in motion by some aspect of the electrical field aspects of regular lightning -- however this does NOT explain all of the actions of BL -- there could be multiple causes for what we see as BL.
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (pp. 98-99). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
No one walks calmly from certain death / injury -- you wouldn't either.
Please go to the web-site Nigel suggested and READ IT ! It describes a reported BL from about150 years ago. The BL goes past one person without injuring and then kills 3 0r 4 -- then exiting the building through a (closed?) window -- putting only a small hole in it but smashing all the other windows in the small school-house!
PLEASE ! read all of my comments -- ie to others as well as yourself
Oh I'm fully aware most of this is based on conjecture. Its a matter of how much bs is used to cover up the stank of the bs before it, and then then coming to a grand conclusion that 'has' to be the best scenario given the trail of bs.
"Btw the objects in the photos are not conjecture, they are real. The conjecture is that they are not of genuine light sources but something else like damage or faked."
Yeah.... No crap. Never did I state the physical existence of film does not exist..... Thats beyond stupid. You can easily say 'The conjecture is that they 'ARE' of genuine light sources and not something else like damage or faked'. See how this works?
"You're just not understanding it, i'm not saying that the BL moves around. As stated before it doesn't have to leave the tent area. It could have burnt the cedar2 at the tent and then just stayed there preventing them from returning. Then the background microwave energy that causes the BL does the rest - raises the temp of the snow causing the den collapse and debilitates the returning3."
Yeah... I don't recall you ever stating your theory having the fireball stalker stay at the tent location and not move..... Your all over the map, Literally. Unfortunately, even 'if' mr.fireball was stationary, it would have had to make THREE separate attacks on the hikers to explain your theory... (Clothing from cedar2 found on rev4 etc). Only NOW.... It does it from a mile + away.
I am beginning to think your theory is beginning to look a whole lot like this.... And its no better then the Yeti assassin. https://youtu.be/X3KV4fLSNoU
How was a flashlight found on TOP of the tent if it was still standing when they left ? (tossed there later)
Scientific proofs of what happened are a bit thin on the ground.
Btw the objects in the photos are not conjecture, they are real. The conjecture is that they are not of genuine light sources but something else like damage or faked.
You're just not understanding it, i'm not saying that the BL moves around. As stated before it doesn't have to leave the tent area. It could have burnt the cedar2 at the tent and then just stayed there preventing them from returning. Then the background microwave energy that causes the BL does the rest - raises the temp of the snow causing the den collapse and debilitates the returning3.
Oh... The botched investigator that wasn't even interested while on site, and one of the suspected groups. Ill add that to the list of unreliable conjecture.
You are attempting to explain conjecture with... More conjecture. Several instances of this later develops major contradictions and inconsistencies in your theory, but you claim facts.
Warm spots, burnt tree tops, sightings, objects in photos..... ALL conjecture. A great example of this is... Now you claim that BL not only chased them to the den once killing cedar2, came back a second time to melt the ceiling of the den, went away again long enough enabling the ceiling to solidify into ice, only to return AGAIN to finish them off by collapsing the den causing blunt force skull crushing.
Weak..... You cant just pick and choose the conjecture you like and ignore everything else.
Fact - The den had four seats and the ravine four are so named because there are...?.
"So... The ceiling snow is supposedly hard enough to bash in a skull in a very isolated area"
Fact - in addition to the side fractures given on this site the base of NTB's skull was also cracked (anterior cranial fossa) and the fornix broken (this lies at the centre of the brain). I'm not qualified in determining cause of this trauma but i'm not seeing a kick in the head here, more that a broader stronger higher energy crushing force has been received. Just as the pathologist said, like in a car accident.
"but yet you claim ball lightning melted the den..."
Fact - Scientific research at Hessdalen is connecting the lights there with microwaves as theorised by some physicists. The theory is that ball lightning is the product of the fact that the whole area is being bathed in electromagnetic radiation mainly in the microwave spectrum generated in the atmosphere from high winds. It's the microwave energy that softened the snow just as it created the hot spot and enabled footprints to last nearly 4 weeks. (snow closer to it's melt point compresses better) and produced a layer of snow on top of the tent that was so hard that they damaged the tent chipping through it (thawed then refrozen).
"I call major BS. ... "
There's a lot of small pieces of evidence that say otherwise, brown faces, bleeding head orifices, massive burn, blackened digits, burnt treetops, parallel scratches, facial marks, three people expire within 330 meters climbing back up, possible collapse of the den. All can be explained by microwave radiation. True they can have other explanations but that all of them can be explained by this one thing is significant imo. Then we have eye witness accounts of sightings and then we have....... PHOTOGRAPHS!!!
Too many pieces of evidence all pointing in one direction to be ignored. They went there to photograph the lights, they did so and it cost them their lives.
BL's not BS.
I call major BS. ... The likely hood that skull was bashed in with anything other then a blunt and forceful object is slim to none. Remember how we talked about 'reaching'.... Like with go-go-gadget arms?
The only fact I see here, is the fact NOBODY knows how, when, or why that den collapsed (if it collapsed), nor who was in it and what injuries may or may not have happened in the process. Fact
Could have been a ball lightning roller
Could have been an explosion, lightning bolt, earth tremor collapsing the den.
All we can do is discuss what COULD have happened.
That is fit a theory to the fact profile.
Collapse of the snow den causing those injuries is perfectly plausible. Particularly if the microwave theory is correct and the snow bank was being warmed up, that would both destabilise the roof's structural integrity and substantially increase it's density.
http://www.islandnet.com/~see/weather/almanac/arc2007/alm07feb.htm
I don't buy it.... Nope... Refuse to drink the koolaid.
- heard a loud rattling, maybe getting deafening.
- felt pain.
- getting warm or too hot.
- suffered burns.
- suffered an explosion.
- could have seen the tips of the tent light up with St Elmos fire.
Once outside they couldn't just hang around near the tent due to the winchill, so the choice was return into the tent or head for the shelter of the forest and build a fire.
What I do not understand is how a BL can scare you so much that you leave the tent even without boots. What is sure they all must have known that they go into a life-threatening situation when leaving the tent. And they did not go only some meter away, but nearly one mile. Even when assuming the BL caused all the burning injuries that are mentioned in the autopsy report, they were surely painful but not deadly.
John, you seem experienced in camping outside in very cold nights. What would frighten you so much that you leave your tent only lightly dressed?
"Sooo... What was the blunt object that caused the caved in skull? Don't tell me 'it was the snow". I don't buy it. "
It was the snow.
From the roof of the den. This is sooo... easy.
Throw in some rye bread, with a side order of fireball. Mystery solved.
1) the radiation was just about 2 or 3 times background -- that is fairly low and not harmful;
2) the radiation was on shirt sleeves and other places where accidental contamination occurs in a lab.
Anna -- three points:
1) that diary is as fake as a Mormon three dollar bill ! It mentions several faked stories from other sources, all in one "diary" (extra hiker trailing them -- extra tent -- words that no one else reported in real diaries -- staying two days on hillside -- group members disappearing -- LSD overdose -- and by the way, in a snowstorm you have a whiteout where all you see is the snow blowing and not pitch darkness)
2) not lightning but BALL lightning -- they are related but not the same thing -- if any were hit by a regular lightning discharge there would be obvious injuries that all medical personal could / would plainly identify.
3) from your post: "They wouldn't build a den to hide from a fire ball" -- of course they wouldn't -- but they would to shelter from the sub zero temps.
Nigel -- There would be too much wind to run the stove - it was found in its packed state, unused.
also: I have tried to resubmit a comment several times but my DSL provider times-out if you don't change pages.
note to all: they were undressed of their heavy and wet over clothing -- wearing just under clothes and some dry clothes with dry socks -- I have done this in camping in northern Wyoming two winters in a row (temp: from 25F down to minus 45F with most days hovering around zero F ) I wasn't camping but working -- spent two entire winter out in that cold with no heat. You learn to remove wet clothing. In their normally heated tent they would dry by morning -- socks must be dry so those without extra dry pairs would have to bed down without socks -- or their feet would freeze by morning. My feet nearly froze one night even with dry socks. (was minus 47F that night)
also: the two photos Anna posted -- please note, those are log houses partially built -- as can be seen from the partially completed roof and only some of the windows framed in / installed -- no collapsing roofs. This was not an old abandoned village, but a village from which the builders fled. I know this as we were building log homes in Wyoming for over ten years. I also own a log home. Perhaps they had some ball lightning in the area and so abandoned that 1/2 built village because of the strange balls of light -- it wouldn't be abandoned normally -- and I'm guessing the scientists/engineers/geologists were looking for copper and not gold.
HK -- and everyone else -- if you go to the two posts of the hillside I posted a few days ago you will see that the chance of an "avalanche" ...... is ZERO ! and they would have known that, given their position.
here is a good view of the area as seen from a drone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFhA6D5m1g8
I suggest you start at 1:30 and then skip around (to see various points of interest -- eg. "Boot Rock" - Mt. Orten and Dyatlov Pass)
also: I suggest you read / re-read my posts and consider that I spent a few years reading text-books on lightning and ball lightning, going to web-sites, and considering various (but very bad) wacco-theories ..... like yeti or space aliens, or murderous Mansi. Please note that the Mansi named the two mountains: "Dead Mountain" and "Don't Go There" for real reasons -- including that their history speaks of a hunting party that all died up there, and of evil spirits -- which could be ball lightning.
again -- everyone -- please read up on Occam's Razor -- see my post or google it.
I disagree, the luxury of ball lightning is that because it exhibits so many behaviours this makes it very flexible.
E.g. rollers were unofficially reported to the mourning families by the investigation team.
So maybe the ravine four were crushed by one? See how easy it is to make BL fit.
Yes i'd agree the diary is a hoax.
@Declan Clark - What part about radiation?
But I think, and hope you agree, that it is a hoax.
Several times more than one tent is mentioned, it does not match with the clear evidence (one tent found by the search party). Then, if there would have been a snow storm, the tent has to be covered with snow (ok could be melted down by the sun), but at least there would not be any footsteps next to the tent. If some panicked as described, they would run away in several directions, but the footsteps prove that they left the area more or less well-ordered. And also the rest does not fit, how could the four hikers come to the ravine buried under some meters of snow? And that someone in the sky calls the names of the hikers and then tosses them through the air? For me this sounds a little bit too odd to be true. But a good story, and maybe some parts are true (for example the father of the author was actually some part of the search member). You know, if you want to tell a lie, built it up with as much true facts as possible.
@Nigel: I informed me further about ball lightning. Was is true, state of the today’s scientific knowledge is that ball lightning exists, but happens very rare. But there is no other agreement. Some sources tell that the ball is moving up and down, some tell that it is moving to the right and to the left. Some sources tell that the ball can pass almost everything without damage, some sources tell that it burns everything that comes in contact with and can hurt (and even kill) humans. Some tell it vanishes without a noise, some tell it vanishes with a large explosion. So this is the problem with ball lightning. It exists, but we know as good as nothing about it. So almost impossible to discuss about it when you know nothing.
What is quite clear in my opinion is that a burning stove (that was probably unused) or a fire can never produce such a lot of energy to trigger a ball lightning.
Regarding the ball lightning theory I don’t think someone in the tent was hit by the ball. If a ball of energy hits a human in a tent and some other human are around, there have to be evidences as massive burning marks. But the ball could be around them (when the photos of K are real they look like shot from the inside of the tent). Maybe first the ball (or the balls) did not look dangerous but at some point the hikers realized they are in a great danger. Maybe because the balls accidental came closer to the tent. That would prove first making the photos and then panicking and cutting the tent. Some sources say that when there is a ball lightning, there also is a storm around. Could be a hint why the footsteps look like normal going. Because they wanted to run, but because of the storm they were only able to move normal. But in a storm in the winter wouldn’t there be snowfall that must have hide the footsteps? Not necessarily I would say.
Nevertheless, what I can’t understand is how a ball lightning can be such a danger to the hikers that they all left the tent is a hurry. You only leave your tent in such a night with only few clothes when you are in a great danger. If the ball hit no one, they could not have known that the ball is a danger to them (because surely if there was a ball lightning, the hikers did not know anything about it). But if the ball hits someone and that scared them so that they left the tent, the hit must have been very powerful. And this would have been noticed in the report. It is really hard for me to imagine how it could have happened.
"Semyon was trying to light a fire inside of his tent "
"At first I thought Semyon had managed to light a fire inside his tent but the moment I looked outside, the light vanished."
"I was packing supplies in my tent"
"I heard a tent being ripped and when I looked outside"
Either the translation from Russian to English is very poor or the original is rubbish.
This is the last thing she wrote (scroll down) - https://mysteryinksite.wordpress.com/2016/03/12/the-dyatlov-pass-mystery/
It's rubbish.
Here he is saying farewell - http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Krivonischenko-camera-film6-26.jpg .
http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Krivonischenko-camera-film6-25.jpg
You're discussing macro weather events involving huge energies...?
"But surely it is a hint that there was something unusual or at least they thought."
AK (nuclear industry) and SZ (KGB) were sensitive assets and there was concern of defection or abduction. Once they found the ravine four they closed the case against Ivanov's wishes.
Question one - i'm not qualified to give a professional answer on this one. All i know is that YK had a massive burn on his lower leg 31cm long with charring and with the skin blown open. There are a number of areas where the pathology seems unsatisfactory, LD's tongue, AK's neck and perhaps YD/YK's injuries (charred digits frostbite or burns?). YD's possible pulmonary edema has several possible causes including electrocution it seems. Also he had singed hair.
You are assuming an electrical discharge but microwave burns are another possibility.
Question two - No as stated below it could pass through the tent harmlessly and just burn human tissue with microwaves.
@Anna - i think you would need a bit more energy than a stove
To John I read your posts once you posted them
The ball lightning theory is very interesting. Also there are a lot of other sources that deal with this topic.
Question one: If someone (e.g. the two Yuris’s) were hit and injured by ball lightning, wouldn’t this be noticed in the autopsy report? OK some of them had burning injuries on the hand, but these injuries happened when they tried to warm up on the fire. Hit by a ball lightning with 300.000 volt must cause dead or heavy injuries. But nothing mentioned in the report.
Question two: If a ball lightning hit the tent, or someone inside, wouldn’t it have the impact similar to a normal lightning strike? In this case I would expect burning marks and devastation at the tent.
Q. and you fear that you could be buried in an avalanche, what would you do?
A. Cuddle the girl next to you?
"Must have been a natural force, as the original report says." - yes absolutely.
Q. but outside they calm down and go down the hill in a group and almost in a row
A. what if they were assisting two injured members? The BL theory has several versions, one is that YD and YK (who clearly die first) suffer electrocution at the tent. This leaves them both groggy with YK badly limping as the pain sets in. So they need an able bodied guy each side of them to get them down the hill and at walking pace. Hence the side by side nature of the steps. Also the report definately talks about 8 OR 9 sets of footprints. This could be explained as YK sometimes making little contact with the ground. It also explains why they left so urgently in their socks and couldn't return whilst the BL stayed at the tent.
Q. A lightning ball inside or next to the tent?
A. Ball lightning is famous for passing through solid objects without any damage, windows, even pressurised aircraft fuselages. Or it can demolish buildings, no one can explain it's behaviour.
Q. maybe because of the stove
A. the stove was found unused.
Q. For example the hikers did not cut the tent, but the search persons did.
A. the rescue team admitted to damaging the tent but not the large cuts made from the inside.
"but I see no direct evidence that proves it wrong".
We'll have to agree to disagree.
Anna -- please read my previous posts about the terrain and go to the links to see videos of the area in both winter conditions and spring. Ball lightning is still poorly understood and would be back in 1959 -- however it has been reported that it exhibits a "directed" behavior in that it is attracted to metal objects and conductors, as well as nodes in an electrical field. A tent, with a metal stove in it, surrounded by a fairly even and smooth field of several feet of snow (and in high winds) would be a node -- as would any human (also a conductor) standing outside the tent and looking at the strange balls of light. This is why you should not stand under a tree in a lightning storm -- humans conduct better than a tree so the electrical energy would jump from the tree to the human -- killing any it hits. Ball lightning has been reported that has both killed on contact and/or exploded on contact (in one reported case knocking down a stone wall). In the last photos taken there is something like a bright ball of light in the photo which seems to be coming closer to the camera / hiker using the camera. The "last" photo seems to show a ball VERY CLOSE to the camera and there are three dark head-like objects at the bottom edge of the frame. If that BL exploded that close to a person it would account for many of the major injuries (compression injury of the ribcage, injury to the skull, and in one hiker a small tear in his heart). Hikers then retreat into the tent - but BL is known to move both through and around in strange ways -- so it may have entered the tent - the metal stove was found inside and near the entrance of the tent. The only safe way out would be to slash the rear of the tent and flee -- ASAP ! -- which is what they did, not even stopping to dress for the cold nor retrieve their boots.
I think the hikers originally thought they were running toward their stash of extra clothing, shoes, felt boot-liners, food and etc. -- however in the confusion ran the path of least resistance: downhill with the wind at their backs. Photos of the area taken by the Russian rescuers show snow blown in that direction. (leaving mini-drifts around small objects, like rocks or footprints) Videos of the tent site in winter snow done in February, decades later, show the same wind blowing in the same direction.
ALSO: the videos posted also show that the hillside was strewn with rocks which would be mostly covered with snow and could account for some of the minor injuries - to hands, arms, legs or face and might even account for some of the skull fractures. Though these skull fractures could also have been caused by BL exploding close to the head (see the "last" photo with the three "heads" at the bottom). Running at full speed in the dark in a Siberian snowstorm, down a rock strewn hill -- if / when you trip over something (remember they are barefoot) you would put your hands in front of you if you could - this might account for many of the hand injuries.
ALSO: an explosion next to your head could cause the fractures seen in some of the skulls. There were very little external body (skin bruising) marks that would indicate the fractures were caused by blunt trauma (like in an attack by persons unknown) -- again indicating an air overpressure and not a weapon or falling against a rock.
The hikers were most likely fascinated by the balls of light and went out of the tent to view, and photograph, and only later realized the danger - retreating into the tent.
No murders by the peaceful Manti, no yeti, no space aliens, no Soviet plot, no KGB, no weapons testing, no rockets, no fight among the hikers -- just a bad place to set up a tent, but then they were in a storm (see photo of setting up the tent) and in a hurry to do so before dark. They probably didn't orient themselves to the slope so that they knew which way was the hut and etc., but oriented the tent to avoid the wind blowing into the hooked opening (no zipper) -- and the wind was so strong they did not set up the stove but left it where the boots were found -- at the tent's opening -- their bedding as far from that wind as possible.
ALSO: the tent is plenty large for the ten original hikers.
ALSO: no avalanche was possible as they were just about at the hill-top of a gentle slope. (again, see my posts of the area, including marking flags where bodies and items were recovered)
ALSO: note that mountain climbers, far more experienced than the nine were, make fatal mistakes all the time -- the sad part of this incident was that all perished in miserable conditions. My heart goes out to them !
LASTLY: please read all of my posts.
Anyways, when you are in a tent with nine people and there is not so much space and you fear that you could be buried in an avalanche, what would you do? Staying there and hoping that the tent will provide some shelter? I would try to get out as fast as I can. But of course, this is speculation.
I think the issue is obvious. Why did they left the tent only with few clothes? It must have been a great danger or at least they thought it is a great danger. But a danger that is only in the area around the tent, in other case they would not have stopped at the cedar and make a fire. And the danger must have appeared after some time, because three of them were going back to the tent. And a danger that reach some hundred meters, because they were about one km away. Beyond this, one question is why did not all go back to the tent? Two answers are possible. First answer is that they were not sure the tent still is there or at least can be reached (e.g. buried under some tons of snow (avalanche) or burned down (lightning ball)). Second answer is that they feared the danger is still there or could be coming back.
What I think is clear is that there was no living danger as other human or animals. In this case they would never have stopped at the cedar and made the fire. Must have been a natural force, as the original report says.
What Anna says is of course a good point. They must have been in a hurry, because they cut the tent, but outside they calm down and go down the hill in a group and almost in a row. Again, I can imagine that the hikers acted so because they feared an avalanche. But of course, some weak points. A lightning ball inside or next to the tent? Can’t be proven wrong, but I’m not convinced.
The only thing what really proves the cutting tent and walking down the hill is that they heard or saw something and they thought they are in a great danger. Because of this they cut the tent and outside they are welcomed by other human with machine guns. The men with machine guns guard the nine hikers to the cedar and then leave them alone because it should look like a dead with hypothermia. But makes this sense? I think not.
Another idea I had was something like poison gas in the tent, maybe because of the stove. This explains the hurry to come out of the tent and calming down when you are outside. But surely does not explain why going over a km away to the cedar. Instead it makes sense to cut the whole tent, get all the clothes and other things and move back to the next town.
Of course another explanation is that some facts are no real facts. For example the hikers did not cut the tent, but the search persons did. But if we doubt one fact, we can doubt all facts and each story is possible.
So when I consider all facts (snow, winter, mountain, tent outside, fear and a hurry, going a km away but later coming back) in my opinion it is more likely they were in fear of an avalanche than they fled from a lightning ball. The “fear of avalanche theory” has some weak points (the experienced hikers estimated the situation wrong), but I see no direct evidence that proves it wrong. But of course I won’t claim it’s the true, I simply say I can imagine that it happened so.
Q. But back in the 50s did the hikers know this?
A. Yes absolutely, these people were mountain experts, the trip would have qualified Dyatlov as a master alpinist or whatever the Russian title was. The route was graded as type 3 - "most difficult".
Q. Did they lose their original track?
A. We don't know for sure but it's highly unlikely, the tree (brush) line started only 500m away. All the signs are that they made an intentional detour to observe something. YK's camera was found in the tent on a makeshift tripod. This is very unusual behaviour for a group that have got a bit lost in a whiteout. The slits support this theory.
I have to repeat that if you fear an avalanche getting out of the tent doesn't make you safer, if anything less so. The fear with an avalanche is that if you are lucky enough to not get dashed on rocks you get buried in snow that sets like concrete around you preventing you from digging yourself out. Modern off piste skiers carry an airbag that defeats this danger, creating an airspace that permits movement afterwards. In effect the tent would act as a big airbag. And the weight of everything in the tent would act as an anchor against a weaker avalanche compared to just a single person. Much safer inside than outside imo.
Glad you agree they used the cedar as a lookout even if we can't agree why
Yes the photos are intriguing, imo they must be genuine photos of a "light event" or fakes. The damage theory doesn't hold water, pun intended.
ZK got the furthest because women survive cold better than men, this is well documented. But there are signs of radiation exposure which imo explains the "bunching".
Q. but there are also some facts that speak against it (no evidence at all for this phenomenon, no melted snow.
A. Sorry, there are several documented accounts from reliable eye witnesses of lights in this area at that time and then there is the hot spot (search the page).
Ball lightning isn't an invention, it's a well documented phenomenon with thousands of cases. Considering it further the DPI BL theory doesn't actually require the object to move downhill and attack them at the ravine, the 2 yuris could have suffered an electrocution event at the tent as they got out or just fell out of the tree on to the fire concussed and unattended and the ravine 4 just suffered crushing from a collapsed den. All the BL had to do was stay at the tent. The key question to answer is what threat coud make them leave the tent in their socks and keep them away for some time but unafraid to light a fire 1500m away? Fear of avalanche is better than many theories but is too weak imo, as Einstein said :- "As simple as possible but no simpler".
From today’s point of view I think leaving the tent was the wrong decision. Why? Because the tent is not damaged except the cuts from the hikers. If they would have stayed in the tent, they would have survived. Of course this can’t be proved, but the fact that the tent is not damaged speaks for it.
I can’t see wat speaks against climbing on the cedar. Imagine you are sitting there in the night and you realize that the fire is not enough and if you do nothing you will certainly die. But you know there is a tent with everything you need, but you don’t know if it is still there or under some meters of snow (still assuming they feared an avalanche). And you don’t know exactly where it is. So for me it sounds absolute logical to climb on a tree and look for the tent. And someone did this and saw the tent and because of this three hikers tried to go back to the tent.
Regarding the photos you are correct, I can’t explain them. But as you know, they are very controversial. Even if they were made by a human (and not because of external damage), they are so unclear, that you can interpret everything in the photos that is causing a large light (UFO, lightning ball, plane, atomic bomb, whatever). But of course, if the photos are real, this speaks for some external that is making a large light.
I think that they were found within 330 meters means nothing. They started in a group but Dyatlov gave up first, then Slobodin and then Kolmogorova. Why the woman made the furthest distance? Because on the fire under the cedar the women got the best places.
I think you favor the lightning ball theory. Surely, especially the last photos support the theory, but there are also some facts that speak against it (no evidence at all for this phenomenon, no melted snow, no burning marks on the tent …). What I simply can’t imagine is that a lightning ball suddenly appears and “hunts” and kills all the hikers when never ever before or after this tragedy such a thing happened. It sounds too much “made-up” (hope this is the correct word).
Either they chose the cedar as a lookout or because it provided big dead branches that would burn well or both. Using it as a lookout works well in the BL theory...
Sorry thumbs down on the Mk3 version, Pink Floyd!? Not enough gravitas for this. The Mk2 version was the best. Still knocked out by the Celtic Spirit choice.
AFilmCritic.
Fact they did so... fact fact... fact! OR, they simply broke off limbs.... for a fire. There are no 'facts' here. lol
They were quite close to the top of the mountain and there was very very little chance of an avalanche on that slope.
So no one flees a tent in their socks because they've heard a rumble nearby, they would have as much chance in the tent as outside, in fact it would be more dangerous further down than at the top. Even if they did erroneously decide to leave they would have discussed it first and had time to collect footwear and outer clothing. No need to slit open the tent.
No one would bother to climb a cedar to monitor the tent area 1500m away for avalanche risk at night. The fact that they did so points to something being visible at the tent. Something illuminated perhaps.
You haven't explained the photos - http://dyatlovpass.com/controversy#zolotaryovcamera . The argument against water damage etc is that the Eagle photo exactly matches a seperate eye witness account and the three heads looks exactly what you would expect of a shot of an extremely bright object from inside the tent. That would be some coincidence for random damage.
The returning three all expire within 330 m of each other. I would point at this and argue that this is too small a distance to be simply by chance there has to be a reason.
Sounds like you got further then I did. lol
Good page but almost always there is a simple natural explanation and I am sure this is also the case here. And nothing extraordinary like the Yeti or UFOs or lightning balls that follow and kill people or whatever.
As long as there are no new facts, everything we can do is speculate and create theories. So I think the following happened:
It is evening and they are sleeping in the tent. Some are wearing more clothes than other because when you sleep with nine people in a tent there are warmer places in the middle and colder places at the sites. Then they hear a loud rumble and think an avalanche is coming and they are in great danger. Of course today we know no avalanche did hit the tent, because the tent was intact. So maybe they heard an avalanche somewhere next to them, or maybe it was a thunder or a small earthquake. Fact is they thought they were in a great danger. So they grabbed some clothes very fast and cut the tent to get out very quick. Outside they calm down a little bit but still think the avalanche is coming soon. And they act very logical and organized. They stay in a group, grab each other on the hands so that no one gets lost and leave the area almost in a row. In the distance they see the wood and the big cedar and they go there to search for shelter.
At the cedar they act very logical again. They make a fire to warm up. What they did not know: In a night with temperatures around -30 grad Celsius a fire alone does not help so much. So they try everything to make the fire bigger but after some time they realize that this has no success and when they stay at the cedar they will die. At this some of the hikers are just undercooled, at least the one that wear only some few clothes. Then someone is climbing the cedar to look whether the avalanche (they were thinking of) hit the tent or not. And they see the tent is still intact or at least they think it could be. At this point the two Yuri’s are just dead or as good as. And again they act logical because the other hikers take some clothes from the Yuri’s to have better chances to survive.
And then they split (maybe in agreement or in a conflict). Igor, Zinaida and Rustem decide to go back to the tent what makes sense. But all three of them are undercooled and exhausted and they don’t make it and die of hypothermia.
The other four are wearing more clothes and they decide to create a den. And they find a good place. In a ravine below ice or maybe a small cave in a wall of the ravine. There they are protected by the cold wind. But as we know, the protection was not as good as expected. Some part of the wall of the ravince collapses and buries the hiker under some meters of slow. This again matches the situation earlier in the tent, that there was some rumble (maybe some smaller earthquakes). If some tons of snow are lying on you, this matches exactly the injuries the hikers had (pressed ribs without external injuries).
Also the other facts can be explained with this theory:
Rustem’s outer injuries: Possible that they did fight about the clothes of the two Yuris’s and Rustem was hit on the head. Or he was the one climbing the cedar and was hit while climbing/falling down.
The radiation: First of all, in the original report no radiation was mentioned. But let’s assume there was radiation. Then it is quite probably that the radiation was on the clothes before the trip. They were engineers and it was a time where several people worked with radiation and it was a time were safety standards were low.
The missing tongue: It is the same as with the eyes. During decomposition the soft tissues are affected first. O they were eaten by scavengers. Maybe Lyudmila bit up a piece of her tongue during the snow collapsed and the rest was done by decomposition and/or scavengers. The original report simply says the tongue is missing, nothing more.
…
So we know they were experienced and exactly so the reacted. Today we know there was no avalanche, but it the night they did not know this. And also experienced people can do wrong decisions as it happens each day. So the tragedy was caused by some bad decisions (starting with the position of the tent) and simple a little bit bad luck (that the wall of the ravine collapsed).
Would like to hear your opinions and if there is something that speaks clearly against this theory.
Greetings from Germany
Oh he was so close! But in his story the microwaves/UHF are from an alien craft which makes repeated assaults on the group, pity.
As said before the fire in a snow covered forest 1500m away rules out a sentient threat. Also he doesn't see that the returning three survive the ravine four and nurse them passing clothing from the dead to the living (LD -> SZ).
A good effort, close but no cigar
http://image.ibb.co/jYosrk/arfhtswtrhreyj.jpg .
http://image.ibb.co/gWrCrk/cdjhdty.jpg .
http://image.ibb.co/ibqrHQ/frgjdrtyj.jpg .
http://image.ibb.co/iNNSrk/drtghwstrhjrdk.jpg .
http://image.ibb.co/msfK45/preview_35.jpg .
http://image.ibb.co/jYosrk/arfhtswtrhreyj.jpg
http://image.ibb.co/gWrCrk/cdjhdty.jpg
http://image.ibb.co/ibqrHQ/frgjdrtyj.jpg
http://image.ibb.co/iNNSrk/drtghwstrhjrdk.jpg
http://image.ibb.co/msfK45/preview_35.jpg
I liked the photo of RS as found in the snow with his cap looking like it was placed after he lay down. Placed by SZ as she pressed on?
The metaphysic.narod.ru page looks interesting and very detailed, i've had a skim read but i'll have a proper one later and reply.
https://topwar.ru/uploads/posts/2014-06/1403835303_image008.jpg
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57eaab3659cc68cc4f3275a5/58ad1948893fc05fd0e6e8b2/58ad19cb414fb535237bd2f2/1487739345195/DyatlovPart2p.jpg?format=1000w
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/57eaab3659cc68cc4f3275a5/58ad1948893fc05fd0e6e8b2/58ad1961197aea3437bdbf38/1487739241578/DyatlovPart2d.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-kpwieJbr9Vk/VM8uj9_saiI/AAAAAAAADDc/sm6P22eOLAU/s1600/Dyatlov%2BPass%2Bbody.jpg
8:19 is literally everywhere, but here is one. http://ymbdad.blogspot.com/2015/02/nsfw-everyday-strange-dyatlov-pass.html better save it. http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-c5CarLAIA5E/VM8tghlSfoI/AAAAAAAADDE/mTmcHTIAaa0/s1600/Dyatlov%2BPass%2Bbody%2B6.jpg
8:54.... RUSTEM SLOBODIN. No Idea, good luck finding again. Likely not on any page worth a squat. Better save it... http://image.ibb.co/gM5Gz5/712202.jpg
8;56 ... RUSTEM SLOBODIN This photo is literally everywhere. Here is is for you... better save it.
http://image.ibb.co/nfFoCQ/Rustem_Slobodin_post_mortem_2.jpg
But... if your looking for something to chew on a while. http://www.metaphysic.narod.ru/15_Djatlow.htm
8.05, 8.19, 8.54, 8.56.
@Loose-Cannon - all nice work, but i wouldn't reuse the celtic spirit track as good as it is (well done for seeing the connection, touch of genius). I'd go for more pathos maybe - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtLHiou7anE .
Some of the morgue photos i haven't seen before, would appreciate if you could provide a link.
I revamped the vid making it more... Flashy? Also added a whole new segment to the end. https://youtu.be/CE-4LdRfsQo
Best to check to opening times for the cafe.
None of the other theories will be supported with photographs....
I know Rendlesham quite well.
Assuming you have a car checkout the Bawdsey Cafe for lunch and if you want a drink - http://www.theramsholtarms.com/
@Anna - The theory, perhaps just my theory is that complex electric topologies in the atmosphere combined with wind create large regions of microwave energy which seem to include visible plasmoids possibly as solitons. Lightning can do something similar. One of the documented effects is a loud rattling as the microwaves stimulate the inner ear. Other effects include burns and charred extremities. Not documented but quite plausible is interference with the nervous system and possibly pain sensation. So that's perhaps why they fled the tent, but not because of the ball lightning but because of it's cause.
They wouldn't build a den to hide from a fire ball and they wouldn't have the injuries they have.At least one or two of them would be alive.But no one is, unfortunately.And I don't believe that the BL killed them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5thgmuNblCI
here are some fire-ball sites:
https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&q=marfa+lights&oq=marfa&gs_l=psy-ab.1.2.0l4.3993.5823.0.9982.6.5.0.0.0.0.212.911.0j4j1.5.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..1.5.908.0..35i39k1j0i131k1j0i20k1.bAeEAcyw6MY
and here: https://www.google.com/search?q=Brown+Mountain+Lights&stick=H4sIAAAAAAAAAONgFuLUz9U3MDYuTjdRAjNNs4xzi7QkQ_JLizKLSxxLSooSk0sy8_OCM1NSyxMriwHxTnDsMwAAAA&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj1mJrPt9_VAhUQ5mMKHfQWCH8QxA0IpgEwEw&biw=1649&bih=878
or go to: https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&q=ball+lightning&oq=ball+liht&gs_l=psy-ab.1.0.0i10k1l4.4416.17420.0.21377.20.15.3.0.0.0.215.2530.0j11j3.14.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..3.17.2691.6..0j35i39k1j0i131k1j0i67k1j0i20k1.RnNJQ_kCs6I
Looking forward to the vid.
Hey... you may like this video. A one stop shop for like a hundred related pics.
Your getting into bigfoot and alien territory with unsubstantiated claims.
So that allows for side spaces.
Just too easy, like taking candy from a baby...
But I must have missed the evidence that they were dug out of the den, ROFL
In addition, this isnt your dainty light and fluffy snow, this your heavy packed snow "if" of course its going to crush skulls and chests..... which is your entire case. The contradictions are thick with with one.
http://ravallirepublic.com/lifestyles/health-med-fit/article_a0b12a3a-237b-11e0-a516-001cc4c002e0.html
"Without such a device the standard outcome is 85 to 90 percent survival for 15 minutes, 30 percent at 30 minutes and only a few after an hour of being buried."
Yeah... they dug them out of PACKED snow AGAIN by hand in record time before the die of suffocation (what like 4min), nurse them, then ultimately leave them face down hunched over a boulder.
Remember when I said your crapping in your own kiddy pool? ROFL
Not if the returning 3 were nursing the den4 after digging them out of the snow.... It would help if you read my posts...
But i'd agree that the timeline for the deaths of the 2yuris vs the den4 deaths is too tight, so maybe they just had an accident and fell out of the tree earlier. Frostbite makes you clumsy?
THE 2YURIS CLOTHING ARTICLES WERE SALVAGED BY THE DEN4 AFTER THEIR DEATHS.
If your lightning ball collapsed a den (no evidence for) AND killed the 2Yuris (knocked out of tree... whatever you like).... Then you would have to have TWO FIREBALLS happening god only knows how far apart because digging a den by hand in packed snow like that will NOT take 15 min.
Unfortunately a TWO fireball theory takes in from a 'possible' to over the moon fantastical.
Killin me man.... killin me!
How can a single explosion bury the den4 and 'cause the 2yuris to fall'.... WHEN THE DEN4 HAS ON THE 2YURIS CLOTHES??
Think about what your saying......
@KMM - there were burnt tree tops and an unusual number of dead birds (white grouse) found in the forest. Note it doesn't have to be a huge explosion, just enough to trigger a collapse in the den and cause the 2yuris to fall.
@Anna - i think you'd need to confirm the construction date to have a decent theory...
Fire ball explodes/zaps/burns at the treeline with ALL 9 hikers present. The injured were cared for 'in part' by starting a fire. Decent size lower limbs on cedar trees commonly die prematurely (reason why they could even be snapped off in the first place) which was used for said fire because the wood is dry... all other dead wood is buried under snow. Conditions at the tent are even worse, and now having a destroyed tent... returning to it 'for shelter' is futile.... your not taking badly injured and dying people a mile up hill in horrific temps and weather/wind anyhow.
It would not have taken long to figure out a small fire at the treeline exposed to the wind/weather will not work for long as injured Yuri and Yuri have just died from exposure. At this time IGOR DYATLOV, ZINAIDA KOLMOGOROVA, RUSTEM SLOBODIN, and ALEXANDER KOLEVATOV are the least injured and rectify the exposed situation by going 75m into the woods and into a ravine where they made an improvised shelter or 'den', AND relocated the remaining injured which are LYUDMILA DUBININA, SEMYON ZOLOTARYOV, and NIKOLAI THIBEAUX-BRIGNOLLE. Unknown who was incapacitated and had to be dragged/carried, and who could move their legs and walk with assistance.
With the den secured, IGOR DYATLOV, ZINAIDA KOLMOGOROVA, and RUSTEM SLOBODIN make an attempt to retrieve vital gear and clothing from the tent leaving ALEXANDER KOLEVATOV to care for the dying in the den. Unknown if all three went together or if separately after the prior not returning.... I would think this to be a group effort given the amount of goods needed from the tent. Ultimately ALL three die of hypothermia in the process.
Back at the den without the tent3 to return, the injured die and ALEXANDER KOLEVATOV eventually gives in to hypothermia himself being the last alive.
LYUDMILA DUBININA, SEMYON ZOLOTARYOV, and NIKOLAI THIBEAUX-BRIGNOLLE had massive injuries while ALEXANDER KOLEVATOV was in the best condition of all 9. His 'deformed neck' was a post mortem.
DIDCLAIMER.... This is about the only base BL 'fireball' scenario with slight variations possible, and I do not necessarily subscribe to this theory. it may be a #2 on my list.
I came across the article yesterday.I will search the internet if I can find any ground level photos in the Russian sites.I agree that this are blurry.If this bunker exist,then it is a big deal.
Is there any any actual ground level pictures? Or is this super blurry google earth image all there is? Thousands of people have been going to this area in recent years... You would think it be a big deal.
@Loose Cannon.The bunker is 30 m long and 10m wide as far as I remember.Unfortunately I can`t check personally.
https://i.imgur.com/zveawtZ_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=low
As said before the idea that they fled a sentient threat and then lit a fire at the cedar 1500 m away in a snow covered forest is complete nonsense.
The bunker (if its even a bunker) must be where the fireball stalker lives!
BL... Its like the more eyewitness accounts of BL happening, the more you think its 'fact' of what happened. Lightening likely struck my state 5,000,000,000 times last year, does that mean it was the cause for my neighbors house burning down?.... Nope.
The mansi.... Great, lets rely on what one of the suspects say. (eyes roll).
All of this is conjecture... Not evidence.
I used a nursing method – follow the symptoms, complaints, all evidence in an effort to determine what happened to these skiers. I believe these hikers were being stalked and they were aware of that. They pitched tent on the open snow to observe the forest through slits in the tent. They did not want to give up their excursion and return. They reckoned this was their last night in the area and they would lose the stalker on Mt. Otorten. Sheer terror caused these people to leap through their tent in sub-zero weather. A sudden attack caused them to run for their lives. Aware that their combined muscle and body weight could not overcome this attacker, they fled the tent without skis or clothing. The Mansi people told of a large confrontational animal species indigenous to that area of the Urals that they feared. We do not know all species of life on earth or in the sea. We share the earth with many species – confrontational and non-confrontational. Toxic waste in waterways could source mutation. The hikers suffered brutal, life-threatening injuries at the hands of the attacker, but succumbed to hypothermia before dying of those injuries. Hypothermia preceded death by injury due to the freezing temps. Possibly a female hiker screamed and her tongue was torn out by the attacker. Her mouth is frozen in a silent scream. An autopsy report stated the tongue was ripped from the roots. The men's hands are extended to fight off the attacker. Terror is frozen on their faces. Many people look peaceful in death. This group looks terror-stricken and were obviously fending an attack. They climbed a tree to view the attacker. Their arms were braced against blows - not from infrasound, an avalanche or lights, but from an attacker - an attacker that could tolerate being in freezing temps all night to attack in stages - an attacker with the tracking ability to find them, even buried under deep snow. In order to grasp what happened to these people, we must realize what an unusual, life-threatening event these skiers suddenly faced. Isolated at night - freezing - facing a formidable attacker. I am so sorry for what these hikers endured and for the lives lost that night in 1959.
As the search for the remaining members of the group dragged on, some members of the rescue team began to witness strange phenomena. Valentin Yakimenko’s diary from March 31: Today, early in the morning, Victor Mesheryakov, who was on watch duty, left the tent and saw a light in the sky, like a round sphere. He woke us all. Partly dressed, we left the tent and, for about 20 minutes, we watched the movement of a sphere or round disk until it disappeared behind Mountain 880. We saw it to the southeast of our tent and it was moving in a northerly direction. Before it disappeared, in the very centre of this round sphere, we saw a kind of star, which gradually grew and then started to descend, having detached from the sphere. This occurrence made us really excited and we felt confident it was somehow related to the deaths of the Dyatlov group. It must be mentioned that on February 17, during the expedition of another group of climbers, something similar was seen. At around 7:30 AM one member of the party on cooking duty called out: ‘Come and look, something weird!’ Vladislav Karelin, who joined the rescue team later, subsequently recalled: I got out of my sleeping bag without my boots, but in my socks, standing only on branches. I saw a big bright spot. It was growing, and in its centre there was a little star, which also began to grow. This whole spot was moving from the northeast to the southwest and was in the process of falling to the Earth. It left a white tracer tail in the sky. This thing left different impressions on us. Atmanaki said he thought the earth would explode when the object struck, he felt as if it was another planet. As for me, I wasn’t really impressed; it was just a falling meteorite. The whole thing took just over a minute.
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (pp. 66-67). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
It was after this report that Ivanov started considering the ‘overwhelming force’, and in his opinion, it came from above. Some parts of the criminal case files are devoted to a phenomenon dubbed the ‘fireballs in the sky’. For some reason, Lev Ivanov included this data, and later it becomes more obvious why he was interested in these testimonies. The meteorologist, Tokareva, gives the most detailed description of the fireball: To the Director of the Ivdel Police Department 15.03.59: At 6:50 local time a comet was seen in the sky. The tail was similar to that of dense cirrus clouds. Then the star became free from the tail, became brighter, and flew away. It began gradually to swell and became a large ball surrounded in mist. Inside this ball a star began to burn, from which, first, a crescent was formed, and then an entire ball, but not as bright. The large ball began to fade and became like a blur. It disappeared at 7:05. The star moved from the south to the northeast. Atmanaki: On the 7th of February, Vladimir Shevkunov and I got up at 6 AM to cook breakfast for the rest of the rescue group. It was grey and I saw a kind of milk white spot, approximately five or six times the diameter of the moon, consisting of five or six concentric circles. It reminded me of a kind of lunar halo. I told my colleague that the moon looked weird, and he replied: ‘That’s not the moon,’ and ‘It’s supposed to be in a different part of the sky.’ At that moment, in the very centre of the white spot, a star sparkled, and then the star began to grow and move fast in a westerly direction. In several seconds, it grew to the size of the moon and then it broke out of the cloud and appeared as a huge fiery white disk about the size of two moons. And it was still surrounded by the pale white rings. Staying the same size, the sphere began to fade until it became the same as the whole aureola, and then the whole thing just dissolved in the sky. The whole thing took no more than about one-and-a-half minutes and was really strange. I got the impression it was some kind of cosmic body falling down, but then when it was growing the thought came to my mind that our earth was about to collide with another planet and maybe be destroyed. During all this time we were standing as if we were hypnotised watching all this. I spoke to many people about it, those who had also seen it, and people who were in their houses say the light was so bright that it woke them. The file contains an excerpt from the local newspaper with a story, which was indeed strange, as in the Soviet era everything was strictly secular and could be explained by science. On February 7, 1959 the Tagil Worker reported: Yesterday at 6:55 AM local time, to the south-east, at an angle of twenty degrees above the horizon, a bright globe appeared, about moon sized. Around 7 AM, inside of this globe, there was some sort of explosion and a very bright core of this globe became visible, which started to glow more intensely, and around it appeared a cloud. Then the cloud dissolved in the whole eastern part of the sky. Soon after this a second explosion took place, and it resembled the crescent of the moon, gradually the cloud was glowing and in the centre of it remained the bright spot. – A. Kissel, Deputy Head of Vysokogorny Colliery. A radio message was sent by the search team from the rescue group on March 31, 4:00 AM: In the southeast direction the soldier on duty, Misherakov, noticed a large fiery ring, which was moving away from us for about 20 minutes, and then it disappeared behind Mount 880. Before it vanished below the horizon, from the centre of the ring a star appeared, and this star grew to about the size of the moon and then detached from the ring and began to fall. All personnel that were awake observed this strange phenomenon. Please, we ask you to explain this to us, and how safe should we feel, because it made a pretty alarming impression. – Avenbourg, Sogrin and Potapov
Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (pp. 100-103). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition.
It's interesting how people hang onto a theory no matter how little evidence.
For the BL theory there are three official sightings in that region in the spring of 1959 plus an unofficial claim of rollers passing the investigators tent. So lets say four and this is in a sparsely inhabited region. One of the reports talks of explosions. Plus we have the mansi's experience longer term that includes fatalities. So we have eye witness accounts of all of the required behaviour for the DPI BL theory both at that time and in the past.
But no a scrap of clothing was found that YY didn't recognise, like he didn't recognise SZ's camera and this is pounced on as the basis for a murder theory.
Ivanov was an experienced police investigator and his finding is on record....
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Таинственное сооружение, связанное с гибелью туристов, найдено на перевале Дятлова .
This wasn't a military testing area... The closest was a rocket site roughly 100 kilometers away and they were launched down a known range headed in the opposite direction.
Ball lightning might not that rare at the DP... A recent expedition noted a light that lasted 4.5 hours.
There was a rescue team, a police team and a KGB team there for several months who knows what got left behind or lost.
Yep
THEN... You also claimed the very SAME 'single' explosion collapsed the den killing 4 after having dug the darn thing for how many hours?
Yep
The salvaged clothing PROVES (in your theory) that the two parties dies at separate times... Likely hours apart judging by how long it would take to dig a den by hand.
Yep but could just be 15 minutes apart.
Then... You so claimed the other hiker party said TWO explosions.
Not necessarily the same evening. Maybe in the same week. The point being that these lights are observed to explode by eye witnesses in the same region in the same week.
So which is it.... Way I see it your theory can only be one of the following.
1. One explosion at treeline and the den wasn't even dug yet....
2. One explosion over the den causing the collapse and the cedar2 died earlier from non fire-ball reasons.
3. TWO DIFFERENT fireballs hit the the group HOURS apart from one another in two different locations
Possible.
4. THE SAME fireball attacked the group once, went away, then came back to attack them again the second time collapsing the den.
Possible.
5. One explosion with the cedar2 dying before the ravine 4?
This isn't rocket science and you can't claim the fireball slammed two at treeline, others salvage clothing, then went back in freaking time to be in the den when the fireball happened.
As science doesn't undestand ball lightning it is fair to say it is rocket science....
THEN... You also claimed the very SAME 'single' explosion collapsed the den killing 4 after having dug the darn thing for how many hours?
The salvaged clothing PROVES (in your theory) that the two parties dies at separate times... Likely hours apart judging by how long it would take to dig a den by hand.
Then... You so claimed the other hiker party said TWO explosions.
So which is it.... Way I see it your theory can only be one of the following.
1. One explosion at treeline and the den wasn't even dug yet....
2. One explosion over the den causing the collapse and the cedar2 died earlier from non fire-ball reasons.
3. TWO DIFFERENT fireballs hit the the group HOURS apart from one another in two different locations
4. THE SAME fireball attacked the group once, went away, then came back to attack them again the second time collapsing the den.
This isn't rocket science and you can't claim the fireball slammed two at treeline, others salvage clothing, then went back in freaking time to be in the den when the fireball happened.
The 72-year-old hunter told me who and for what killed 57 years ago the Dyatlov group
Источник: https://vmirechudes.com/72-letnij-oxotnik-rasskazal-kto-i-za-chto-57-let-nazad-ubil-gruppu-dyatlova/ .
I have your solution if you wanna hear it.
Wouldn't blonde chicky have been frozen solid where she died? Look at how her body is slumped over that rock with arms UP over the rock......
It was the spring thaw? Look at the force of the water in the photo of her http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Lyudmila-Dubinina-post-mortem-1.jpg .
Again.... Pleasease explain how the ball traveled to the group only once and killed the cadar2 and rav4.
Because it exploded overhead with enough force to destabilise the den. YD and YK weren't killed by it but they fell out of the cedar onto the fire. YK subsequently bit the skin off the back of his hand dealing with the pain. So he couldn't have died immediately. Shock from the burn could have done it. The explosion killed the nearby birds. Might have burnt the treetops as well. There's an outside chance that YD/YK suffered from electrocution instead of falling into the fire.
Again.... Pleasease explain how the ball traveled to the group only once and killed the cadar2 and rav4.
But we don't know.
The spring thaw would enlarge the space above the stream and start moving the bodies along.
So... A report from hundreds of years earlier is PROOF ball lightning explodes. Interesting.
The rav4 being found just outside?of the den suggests it was a shelf configuration and not very deep. They could walk right out the front. Its simply deep enough to block the wind. A collapse of several meters deep hole does not explain the movement of the bodies from the den, nor the blonde chick being hunched of a boulder on her knees. You say it collapsed and then they were moved after..... Who dug this second massively deep hole with their bare hands to get the out??
Im not talking about the search crew, Im talking about the night this happened. We have no clue how deep the snow was when the den was ORIGINALLY dug, how it was dug, who dug it, and how long it took then to do so.
Correct, but applies to any theory
Even "if" thats ball lightning in those frames from the camera.... How do you know it actually caused the physical injuries? I noticed you don't have a solution for why the ball lightning chased them down to kill them ..... Twice.
Not twice, only needs to happen once. I don't KNOW it caused these injuries, that's why it's called a theory...... The ski party reported hearing two explosions 50km away after a light had descended below the hills. So you have a reliable eye witness account that these things can explode...
I've posted this before but just for you as you don't like reading the thread - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_lightning#The_Montague
This one travels 3 miles over open water to explode by the ship, that main top-mast would probably be in excess of 20 inches in diameter. Quite an explosion.
Im not talking about the search crew, Im talking about the night this happened. We have no clue how deep the snow was when the den was ORIGINALLY dug, how it was dug, who dug it, and how long it took then to do so.
Even "if" thats ball lightning in those frames from the camera.... How do you know it actually caused the physical injuries? I noticed you don't have a solution for why the ball lightning chased them down to kill them ..... Twice.
@Loose-Cannon :-
How do you know the film is in fact.... Intact and not fubared via rotting corps, frozen, and water logged in a creek for months?
I don't but that two frames look exactly like BL is a bit of a coincidence if it's random damage....?
How do you know the depth of the snow when/where the den was dug.... - http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-the-den-01.jpg
What did they dig through several of meters of snow with? - Team of men with shovels.
Speaking of the leg burn... I dunno what your reading -
This is from the official pathologist report, "There is a burn across the entire surface of the left anticnemion with a size of 31 x 10 cm with parchment density. In the lower third of the left ??? of brown-black colour with charred tissue and the blow out of the cutaneous covering ???? Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (p. 215). LiberWriter.com. Kindle Edition. "
That's all sounding medium rare and crispy crackling to me.
Yes your list is interesting, for the fight theory, it would have to be that ID, RS and ZK did all the punching and YD and YK took all the punches. It's possible of course, but it's also possible that YD/YK fell out of the cedar breaking branches on their way down. It's possible that the bleeding orifices are from radiation. It's possible that nerve damage made them extremely clumsy.
The key point for me is that the injuries are inconclusive. In my theory the returning 3 dug the ravine 4 out of the collapsed den which would have resulted in superficial scratches to the hands and arms. Note :-
ID - "many small scratches of dark red color on the lower third of the right forearm and palm surface"
ZK - "brown-red abrasion on the back of both hands in the area of metacarpal phalangeal and inter-phalangeal joints", N.B. the "inter-phalangeal joints" are the finger joints, so the report is saying that she had ABRASIONS NOT BRUISES between her knuckles and finger tips on both hands.
These aren't combat wounds but are consistent with digging through snow/ice using their bare hands as shovels.
Zina has the EXACT SAME injuries.... The explanation of what causes it however is not listed. ALL three.... Hand/hand combat wounds to the hands.
YURI DOROSHENKO
2. ear, nose and lips are covered with blood
3. swollen upper lip with dark red hemorrhage
4. right cheek soft tissue covered with gray foam; gray liquid coming form his open mouth. Most apparent cause is pulmonary edema. (Pulmonary Edema.... Fluid in lungs... Common when starved of oxygen)
7. right armpit has a bruise 2x1.5 cm
8. brown-red bruises with size 4x1 cm, 2.5x1.5 cm, 5x5 cm in the upper third of right forearm
9. swelling and small abrasions in the rear of the right hand soft tissue
10. bruise with bleeding into the underlying soft tissue on the back of the right hand corresponding to the second metacarpal bone
14. on the inner surface of the left forearm there is a surface skin wound covered with dried blood
15. similar bruises in pale red color on the shins of both legs
YURI KRIVONISCHENKO
1. bruises on the forehead 0.3x1.8 cm
2. diffuse bleeding in the right temporal and occipital region due to damage to temporalis muscle
3. bruise around left temporal bone
7. back of the right hand is swollen, fingers are brownish-purple
14. dark red abrasions on left wrist, back of the left hand is swollen
16.three linear skin lesions with straight edges, sharp corners and depth up to 0.3 cm on the inner side of the upper third of the left thigh
17. three cutaneous wounds with sharp corners on the inner side of the upper third of the left hip
18. dark brown abrasion on the front of the right femur and tibia
19. dark brown-red abrasions on the front-inner left thigh
IGOR DYATLOV
1. minor abrasions on the forehead
2. minor abrasions on the upper eyelids
3. brown-red abrasions above the left eyebrow
4. minor abrasions on the left cheek
5. brown-red abrasions on both cheeks
6. dried blood on lips
8. bruised knees without bleeding into the underlying tissues
9. both ankles had brownish red abrasions, size 1x0.5 cm and 3x2.5 cm with hemorrhage into the 10. underlying tissue
10. single incision 4x2 cm in the lower third of the right tibia
11. many small scratches of dark red color on the lower third of the right forearm and palm surface
13. metacarpophalangeal joints on the right hand had brown red bruises. This is common injury in hand to hand fights. To get a better idea of the injuries just make a fist. This is the part of the hand which you use to hit someone.
14. left hand is brown-purple color with brownish-red bruises
15. superficial wounds on the 2nd and 5th finger on the left hand
16. skin wound in the palmar surface of the 2nd 5th finger of left hand
ZINAIDA KOLMOGOROVA
1. dark red abrasion on the right frontal eminence
2. pale gray area 3x2 cm above the right eyebrow
3. dark red abrasion on the upper eyelids
4. brown red graze on the bridge and tip of the nose
5. numerous abrasions on the left cheekbone
6. bruised skin on the right side of the face
7. brown-red abrasion on the back of both hands in the area of metacarpal phalangeal and inter-phalangeal joints
8. wound with jagged edges and missing skin on the back of the right hand at the base of the third finger
10. a long bright red bruise 29x6 cm in the lumbar region on the right side of the torso. The bruise looks like left from a baton
RUSTEM SLOBODIN
1. hemorrhages in the temporalis muscles
2. minor brownish red abrasions on the forehead
3. two scratches are 1.5 cm long at the distance of 0.3 cm between them
4. brownish red bruise on the upper eyelid of the right eye with hemorrhage into the underlying tissues
5. traces of blood discharge from the nose
6. swelling and a lot of small abrasions on both sides of the face
7. bruises in the metacarpophalangeal joints on both hands. Similar bruises are common in hand to hand combat
8. brown cherry bruises on the medial aspect of the left arm and left palm
9. swollen lips
10. bruises on the left tibia in dimensions at 2.5x1.5 cm (not shown on diagram)
11. epidermis is torn from the right forearm (not shown on diagram)
12. fracture of the frontal bone 6x0.1 cm located 1.5 cm from the sagittal suture (showing on separate skull trauma diagram without numbers)
"20. edema on the left leg and foot, burn in the area the size of 31x10 cm on the entire outer surface of the leg"
Thats 12 by 4 inches.... And nothing is said about the level of severity. Not to mention he was found next to...... a fire!
How do you know the depth of the snow when/where the den was dug.... What did they dig through several of meters of snow with?
versus
"On the bottom of the tent 9 backpacks were discovered with various personal items, jackets, rain coats, 9 pairs of shoes. There were also found men's pants, and three pairs of boots, warm fur coats, socks, hat, ski caps, utensils, buckets, stove, ax, saw, blankets, food: biscuits in two bags, condensed milk, sugar, concentrates, notebooks, itinerary and many other small items and documents, camera and accessories to a camera."
They didn't leave the flashlight at the tent but several hundred meters down the slope - http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-flashlight.jpg in my theory this has been left as a beacon. Also in my theory the BL would have illuminated the path and crucially the top half of the cedar. This assumes that any whiteout had subsided of course.
Both YD and YK's injuries could have been as a result of electrocution btw... But the simpler (occam's razor) explanation is falling out of tree and being unconcious for long enough.
Only the returning three show this damage on both hand and face, and the pathologist describes most of the facial damage as abrasions or scratches. N.B. ball lightning has been blamed for similar injuries in India. The hand injuries are more difficult to explain but it seems fair to say that if they did punch other people it wasn't anyone else in the group... Except ZK perhaps whose cut on the top of her hand suggests it was cut on someone elses teeth or something else. The facial injuries don't fit the profile of a fight, no black eyes or nose/cheek bruises. So it follows if the faces don't have bruises from fists then the fist bruises must have been gained some other way. Maybe the nerve damage makes you behave as if extremely drunk. ID was found face up in a "boxer" pose which could be relevant.
see the map at home page: http://dyatlovpass.com/
Apparently each frame of the photos has apparently been marked as from SZ's camera which i presume means they have been individually cut and the order lost. Imo the three heads would be the last shot and is taken from inside the tent with the three heads being the canvas fabric of one of the slits.
Eagle 1 is an excellent shot of the object in the sky with the others demonstrating camera shake (it was very windy). So imo he took most of those shots of the sky outside the tent and then returned inside to find wow! it's just outside the tent. Then they got out of there real fast.
As said many times before imo the trip to the cedar was deliberate, they needed somewhere to shelter from the wind chill that allowed them to observe the BL back at the tent. The cedar seems to be the only satisfactory option. The tent contained their clothing and footwear and was their ONLY hope for survival longer term. The labaz was just a food store with some bits and pieces.
Imo the deaths occured because the BL flew down the slope and exploded near the ravine, the den collapsed crushing the occupants and the two Yuris fell out of the tree and suffered burns whilst concussed and unattended.
One of the theories for these lights are that they are solitons in an microwave field occupying many cubic kilometers of atmosphere, some research at Hessdalen points in this direction. N.B. there is an overlap with this theory and crop circles.
The remaining three died by not understanding the debilitating effect that the same microwave field could have even at at reduced energy
That's why they all expired within 330 meters of each other, they had all suffered from the same debilitating force. Maybe climbing the mountain (back into the field) did it, maybe they had reached an exposure limit and were doomed anyway.
Yes i know Occam's Razor but,
"Everything Should Be Made as Simple as Possible, But Not Simpler" - Albert Einstein.
Cheers.
All i'm doing is using the internet to show they were right.
Hey... read my post. Its all there, end of discussion. ROFLMAO
This site is AWESOME for documenting information (whether is fact or fiction) for individuals to read and make their own minds up of whats what, but this comment page is far from being an organized message board. The Russians have it... maybe we need an English version. http://taina.li/
You've gotta read the posts to know what people are saying.... Try a ctrl F with "fabric".
"I was just asking because I do not see ANY of the theories so far explaining the DPI"
I have heard it randomly in videos etc, but it has never been a full blown theory that I know of. Basically they spent a whole 3 seconds stating something like "or did some of them live longer". I couldn't tell you where to find it as Im going off memory, but it wasn't enough to amount to anything. More or less and afterthought that was never elaborated upon.
Yup, your selective propaganda. If your going to quote me, copy the entire sentence.
"You are claiming a definitive fact that these pictures represent the tops of three heads and CAPTURING BALL LIGHNING"
Nope you're wrong again. Bit of a pattern here ...
"But still the unbelievers continue to post nonsense theories that are easily shot down by the facts"
I believe this to be your issue... The vast majority of this tragety can NOT be considered as fact. You tend to think your theory is 'fact' and everything else is 'fiction'. I am open to the ball lightning idea, but to think it does not have holes with a side order of reaching, is a bit narrow minded.
Your comments and Mikeys, are very indicative of someone that feels they know it all and everyone else's opinion is moot. This thread has literally become an echo chamber of a few individuals feeding their own narrative as if they are the authoritarian whom gets to make the executive decision what happened to these poor ruskies. I didnt come here for your crap, but Ill be your huckleberry if you wish. The choice is yours.
@Loose-Cannon - i posted this yesterday :-
"and then there's the three heads photo - http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Zolotaryov-camera-01.jpg The ball lightning theory answers all the facts and there are reliable eye witness reports of these lights and explosions during the DPI period.
It's all there. But still the unbelievers continue to post nonsense theories that are easily shot down by the facts.
There are none so blind as those that will not see. (pun intended) "
Note the last line, if you bothered to read what i'm posting you would know the answers to the questions you've just asked.
But to repeat myself....
A recent expedition to the DP observed a light for 4.5 hours. The Hessdalen lights can last for an hour and give off radar signatures (that's microwaves) that last for hours.
So the evidence fits the theory that they fled the tent because one of these lights had parked outside (could also be a loud rattling sound) and it stayed there for one or two hours preventing them from returning. Then it travelled downhill and exploded near the den which collapsed crushing the occupants, dead birds fell out trees as did the two Yuris who were up in the cedar getting bad frostbite. They were concussed and unattended which explains the burns.
There doesn't have to be a lightning storm for these DP lights, if you read the thread you would know that.
With some of these guys often talking in cryptic messages with a lingo only understandable to them.. making up secret terms and crap expecting you to read 1103 post to be up to speed on their definitions.... I couldn't tell ya if its been mentioned by the god-squad.
However, I have read here/there of people mentioning the idea some of the victims 'might' have lasted another 12, 24, even 48hrs past the others. I believe the contents of their stomach indicate the time of all their deaths at less then 3hrs of each other. This is if you assume they all ate in the tent together at the same time and this was their lats meals.
Great... Zolotaryov's camera! Now we are all able to know wtf your talking about being in some kinda cult click. Geez
I see why you fancy the ball lightening idea. So, I guess the idea is they were scared crapless out of the tent after observing ball lightning, and moved to the treeline to get away from it. Whats your take on why they didnt go back to the tent, and why all the bad injuries? Wouldnt said ball lighting last maybe 5min if your extremely lucky... why not return after the episode? And again.... why climb the biggest tree around during a freak lightning storm?
http://dyatlovpass.com/controversy#zolotaryovcamera
So you've got a basis for a special forces theory, the helicopter accidentally crushes some of them and then the same team coverup to get out of trouble because they realise these people are well connected, so the state genuinely doesn't know about it. The rest of the group are herded together until they die of exposure to make it look authentic and then placed down the mountain with the fire and den being fabrications. The hot spot is from the exhaust.
Problems with the theory -
the eagle 1 photo doesn't support it.
The theory requires significant effort from the soldiers in arranging things but no sign of military footwear anywhere. But then the rescue group could have contaminated the area.
One of the big anomalies with the DPI is that several of this group apparently die of cold but have little or no signs of frostbite in supposed -25C conditions with bare hands and only socks. The only possibilities would seem to be that they die of something else sooner, somehow it was a warm night or anything containing water molecules (including human bodies) was being artificially warmed... NTB was found with his gloves in the pockets of his unzipped jacket. It seems that they weren't that cold.... unless you were up a cedar and then the windchill reversed that...
It's a statistical impossibility imo that it's random damage/double exposure etc that just happens to look like a shot of a bright light source through wind blown snow behind a piece of fabric.
It's a statistical impossibility imo that it's random damage/double exposure etc and looks like a shot of a bright light source through snow behind a piece of fabric.
A photo of a flashlight returning to the tent is a good idea but in my amateur opinion it's too saturated. It's quite a bright light source and the snow in front suggests it's a some distance away which means it's too bright for a flashlight of that era. It's even in the right direction and possibly the right distance for it's position in the photo to be located at the hot spot...
Could be say a solid fuel rocket motor but there's no evidence found by the investigators. Recent expeditions to that area have spoken of hardware dumped somewhere nearby but it's my assumption that the investigation was not a coverup and this dump is subsequent to the dpi. The investigation team stayed there for months and the mountain was closed for three years (could have been further investigations).
Btw lets not forget the Eagle 1 Light (Eagle 2 is a blow up). This is exactly as described by one of the eye witness accounts, as a bright light in the sky surrounded by a mist or fog.
Imo there's only two possibilites for these photos, either they are intelligent forgeries produced for reasons unknown or they are genuine.
Pft... call 'me' the troll? I just have a very low tolerance for bull-sheet, and its lookin like we need some tall waders around these parts as its getting DEEP!
Is it fun to debate possible causes etc... sure. Just dont misrepresent something I toss out there and act as if thats my whole story and Im sticking to it because aliens made me do it.
You know what happened to these people? Whatever frick Mikey says, thats what I think.
Good grief man... "you and off-the-wall theorys are all the same"
Yeti, ball lightening, top secret weapons, special force commandos.... I mention st anthony's fire, and you go full retard.
Still waiting for the official release of the Mikey story. Ill have fun shredding it into 10,000 slices.
And WOW you attacked me for no real reason.
Good name you have. Maybe one day you will become more objective.
As a SERIOUS discussion board, you have turned around and given an Ergot Poisoning narrative?
Nobody there was doing LSD trips, not poisoned, and the like. I am sorry, but you and off-the-wall theorys are all the same. This could be something like attackers, ball lightning, even just natural causes.
Don't be a troll. People get on to you. Please leave us alone. Oh, and that pic of the guy from behind the tree, that's a Russian Yeti.
Trust me.
Naw, I'll be happy to leave. I don't mind. I just thought maybe you and others would enjoy a semblance and direction on how we tackle this.
If we place things into certain areas of thought, maybe we can get somewhere and build off others ideas.
I'm very sorry I may have upset you. We all have different ideas. I just think if we go one by one, we can agree on a conclusion.
All is good. My opinion means nothing. Have at it.
I think this is the farthest from the truth.
These people were SERIOUS. Beforehand, there was an incident, but no big deal. Everybody had specialized jobs where each would be in question.
In the Soviet Union, back then, you don't play games with your future. If you did, you would be shunned.
It's not like you and I who take a few nips of Jack Daniels to warm up a bit. We ALL have. The alcohol in the tent was pretty much untouched.
Like I said, most of us would drink up, but they really didn't touch it. They knew it would be a burden, so, on a ski slope ready to climb a mountain, most would not even touch it.
I wouldn't.
Until all is done and we survived afterward.
Not even a taste.
More to think about.
This pic with the three heads and the overwhelming light...
While I don't doubt it's authenticy, have we gone through ideas of anything it COULD NOT be? We do know that some pics were compromised in development. Some that the party took were "double" images, one shot taken over another. A tree over top of a snowy street where in the middle of the pic, a closeup tree is clear but also superimposed over a street scene.
Some pics were that way, as you know. The pic in question is highly degraded, but enough to prove something there. Let's think about some different ideas. If we can prove that NOTHING ELSE is there, but the obvious, it must be.
Let us see if we can dispel it first. What else could it be? Maybe someone with a flashlight entering the tent?
Remember, dispel it FIRST, then we can move on to the next ideal.
This does not mean you are wrong, but let's try some ideas before making it complete lore.
I think you are right, on that pic, but I want to find ANY plausible idea before we move forward.
It may NOT be what we think.
Thanks for listening.
That's NOT a huge deal to me.
I will say, find FACTS. Many web-sites have lots of dis-information.
Case in point, The door to the tent was almost DIRECTLY toward the storage area. This leaves the idea of where the tent was situated. Some sites tell us WRONG information as to where the cuts were made. Some tell us that the cuts in the tent were UPHILL versus DOWNHILL.
You see?
Half of the people reporting this are WRONG. And people believe it. Obvious is obvious, the cuts were DOWNHILL.
Igor was the guy in charge. He decided the slope. Why? There was no real chance of avalanche, the slope would not afford that. So why? He may have decided that as no problems, it may be a good idea to pitch there to give the party a new idea and try something new, for experience.
I may even decide that.
As we see the pics of them digging in, to make a place for the tent, sure, it looks rough, snowstorm, wind everywhere, but that slope is deceiving. It is NOT as it seems...
Winds pick up, then go away and calm. All pics you see are NOT EXACT. There are many times that things are calm without what "looks" like a snowstorm. This is the way of this particular slope. Winds shift, and sometimes no wind at all.
(read stories about this area)
Semyon was the MOST experienced there. Igor was the party leader. Semyon may have tried to take over the party, but I doubt it. Maybe later, but we do know Lyuda gravitated toward the older people.
We also know that something happened at the tent. One person we know MAY have been hurt there. Slobodin. His injuries (cracked skull) and cold may have allowed him to get down the hill. Maybe even get to the cedar. If so, he went back to the tent. Maybe he never made it to the cedar and he decided to get back to the tent. This is up for negotiation. His injuries were bad. I will say, with cold, he may have been okay enough to still function, for a bit of time. Obviously, he did not die quickly, he was warm enough to leave an ice ideal where he was found.
Zina and Igor were in the same ideal. Going toward the tent. Zina got hit. HARD. The bruise shows she got hit by something across her side. Did this show she died by her injuries? I think not. We ALL live with such bruises. She got the farthest to the tent, but never made it.
Igor was somewhat of an anomaly. If he made it to the cedar (which I think they all did leave out Slobodin) yes. There may been a fight, I doubt that.. Between the party? No. I think not. These people, in a situation they were in, would NOT have fought amongst each other. Not fighting like punches. There was no reason. Some say Igor and Semyon were at odds with Zina, but why deal with that? That wasn't a big deal, especially at this time. And I don't think it ever happened.
So, we know the three up the hill, as much as we can say. The two at the cedar were left behind, being the fire to warm them, IF they keep the fire burning. Problem is that at those temps, no small fire is going to warm them. None.
Doom is doom.
So now you have FIVE of the party dead, as we see it. Each, except for Slobodin had relatively "NON LETHAL" injuries, as far as we know.
Correct?
So, I ask everyone here, let's get on this.
A good start. Let's NOT focus on the idea on what made them leave the tent, let's focus on the injuries of these five people to start.
We get to the ravine later.
Let's get some ideas going.
Interesting how non of these 'investigators' were never harmed or otherwise had their skulls smashed in from it.
@Mike - "google "hessdalen youtube"
This is getting surreal..
This paper stipulates that ball lightening exists, this is a theory of the physics behind ball lightning, and states that it should be able to be reproduced in a laboratory. The condition they give does not describe the night at our campsite on Feb 1st 1959.
I moves along the ground and hits the tent. Wouldn't ALL 9 be zapped in one form or fashion? Ok, some got out before it hit... Then how do we get cracked and crushed skulls and rib cages? And wtf would you wanna be near the biggest tree around yet alone climb the damn thing?
1. hot spot - http://www.viafanzine.jor.br/site_vf/pag/5/dyatlov_part04.htm .
2. raised footprints - "The snow is compressed with the weight or the individual and days/weeks of wind blow away the rest". Yes if it's 0C, not if it's at -25C.
3. Frostbite - this says it all imo - http://www.candac.ca/candac/Outreach/Teacher_Resources_Index/tri/31.pdf
4. It's a tough point to argue but afaik the team were surprised by the density of the snow.
5. Missing from the previous post was that the snow covering the tent was so hard that they damaged the tent chipping it off.
Lightning storm - see reply to Mike.
"1. hot spot"
Where is this 'hotspot'? Where is the documentation, pictures, dimensions, location etc? If this is conjecture based on one account of a rescue worker... How much faith to you have on this account? I would say when in doubt, throw it out.
"2. raised footprints last nearly four weeks in high winds"
Really? I seen this myself... The snow is compressed with the weight or the individual and days/weeks of wind blow away the rest. This is NOT imho evidence of ball lightning.
3. virtually no frostbite on most of the individuals even though they were collecting firewood and building dens in their socks and bare hands.
Judging by the looks of the corps, I would say nearly all of them show signs of frost bite or at least early stages there of.... The tissue doesn't have to be black and or brittle.
4. when they found the ravine four with avalanche probes it took a team of men a full day with shovels to dig down 4 meters because the snow was so hard and compacted. This is not typical of siberian wind drift (afaik).
They were is the darn ditch for MONTHS after the event. Your literally talking about the majority of WINTER snow in freaking Siberia for petes sake. They have snow still melting in summer!!
Further more... From what I have researched, ball lightning typically takes place fairly high off the ground with only a regular bolt connecting to the ground. I would also have to say that there were other hikers within miles and you would thing some crazy freak thunder and explosions with huge light shows fallowing them around the mountain and woods would have been notices by the other hikers. It would have been obvious and documented out the ass by all involved.
But my main question regarding ball lightning is... WHO THE FRICK CLIMBS THE TALLEST TREE IN THE AREA IN A LIGHTNING STORM?
As said before there seem to be different classifiactions, you're talking about the same as Wu - https://www.nature.com/articles/srep28263 .
N.B. this type typically forms in lightnng storms but not always.
The DP lights seem to be a more aggressive form of the Hessdalen lights which are a persistent aerial discharge (can last for hours). They're probably caused by complex electro magnetic topologies in the atmosphere but a full explanation is for the science of the future.
With the incompleteness of the forensics, many theories are viable including ball lightning.
If They were to recast X-Files, I think I would be cast more as Skinner than Mulder. No disrespect, just can't go there with you.
1. hot spot
2. raised footprints last nearly four weeks in high winds
3. virtually no frostbite on most of the individuals even though they were collecting firewood and building dens in their socks and bare hands.
4. when they found the ravine four with avalanche probes it took a team of men a full day with shovels to dig down 4 meters because the snow was so hard and compacted. This is not typical of siberian wind drift (afaik).
Then the ball lightning explodes nearby triggering the collapse of the den. Birds in nearby trees drop dead, treetops get singed and and YD and YK fall out of the cedar.
The bruising can be explained by the microwaves numbing limbs and causing repeated falls. That's how the returning three all give up within 330 meters, their limbs just wouldn't work properly as they climbed back up into a field of increasing intensity.
Good post from Lighting on this :-
"Lightning 29-05-2017 13:16 (GMT)
@Nigel Evans- microwaves can actually cause "debiitating force". "Occurring at 0.1 J/cm^2, nerve damage can lead to a numbness in the limbs. The microwave reaches 1 J/cm^2 for ball formation."
https://www.nature.com/articles/srep28263" ;
About ball lightning caused by microwaves, for those that don't know who Pyotr Kapitsa was, he was one of the most senior physicists in Russia, writing to Stalin to overrule Beria's interference of the atomic bomb development.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_lightning :-
"Microwave cavity hypothesis
Pyotr Kapitsa proposed that ball lightning is a glow discharge driven by microwave radiation that is guided to the ball along lines of ionized air from lightning clouds where it is produced. The ball serves as a resonant microwave cavity, automatically adjusting its radius to the wavelength of the microwave radiation so that resonance is maintained.[67][68]"
Personally i like the Soliton theory best.
and then there's the three heads photo - http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Zolotaryov-camera-01.jpg
The ball lightning theory answers all the facts and there are reliable eye witness reports of these lights and explosions during the DPI period.
It's all there. But still the unbelievers continue to post nonsense theories that are easily shot down by the facts.
There are none so blind as those that will not see. (pun intended)
It’s great to find so many Dyatylov aficionados on here. I have an idea about what happened. Here are the first three building blocks of my theory. Please let me know where I go wrong.
1] A fire log
A log was found near the tent (eyewitness Maslennikov). This suggests to me that they planned to spend the night on the mountain. Bringing a fire log with you when you expect to set up camp in a wooded area (on the other side of the pass) doesn’t make much sense in the best of circumstances. In this case they even ditched all their surplus weight at the labaz that morning. They obviously didn’t think of the log as something they could do without. They had to bring their own firewood if they were going to camp on the bare slopes of Kholat Syakhi.
2] The stove
The firewood wasn’t meant to be used in the stove. They never assembled the stove. And there is a perfectly good reason for this: There weren’t any trees on the bare slopes of Kholat Syakhi.
Dyatylov’s stove didn’t look like an ordinary stove (as in the potbelly kind). It was more like an exhaust pipe hanging under the ridge of the tent, with a canister on one end (the actual “stove”) and the “chimney” (outside the tent) on the other. There’s an approx. drawing of it in the tent-section on here. Just imagine going to sleep with this burning hot contraption overhead. That takes a lot of bravery, or stupidity, or both. Regardless of modern day safety instructions, the hikers knew they had to fasten their exhaust pipe to some solid structure. In loose photos 4 and 5 you can see the guy ropes extending from the middle of the tent (i.e. the pipe) and going upwards to the trees. Without trees they didn’t have any fastening points for their stove. On the bare slopes of Kholat Syakhi it was unusable.
3] A snow shelter
It seems that the hikers decided on a different method to stay warm. A snow shelter. In loose photos 7 and 8 you can see them digging much deeper than needed for just leveling the ground. They are up to their waists in snow. That’s about the height of their tent (1 meter). In the picture taken by the search and rescue party (on this site in the section “tent”) you can see how the tent is dug in as well.
To me it seems like a sensible decision. Whether they were able to erect (?) suspend (?) the stove or not, a blazing hot exhaust pipe doesn’t do you much good on a windswept mountainside. All that heat dissipates before you can say “icicles”. Digging in and letting the body heat of nine sardines in a can do the rest would probably be the better option.
Perhaps that’s why they went up there in the first place. To practice this all important (level 3?) winter survival skill: building a snow shelter.
Of Course Dyatlov had a lot of pride and felt ownership for the hike. The tent modification was his. The custom stove was his design. The organization of the hike was his. If his command was challenged due to the navigational mistakes or the choice of camp sight, I could see Dyatlov blowing a nut. Did he have have a fixed blade or locking knife? It could have been done by a hatchet. Modern forensics could make that determination. I would have thought 1959 forensics should have been able to correlates slashes to knifes and hatchets. Not sold on this, the forensics of the tent slashes is a completely mess. As always we ar against a wall of incomplete information.
@All non believers in the one true ball lightning theory - No one's put it better than Sherlock Holmes :-
"When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth?".
This was Ivanov's conclusion. None of the murder theories stand up.
Q Why did they flee the tent in their socks but then light a fire?
A. Because it was a non sentient threat.
Q How could they have been dropped from a height and not broken limbs?
A It's not possible, they were crushed not dropped.
Q. If the state did it why woud they spend so much money investigating it?
A. Because the state didn't do it and was concerned about defection of sensitive assets.
Looks like your original tip map. http://taina.li/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=141.0;attach=1203;image
I'm stating what everyone already knows. We are dealt big with an incomplete or misleading data set either through accident or intent.
As for a heated argument/fight, I've seen particapents do some pretty irrational things. I can't ignore it.
Your post about ID's irritability combined with his last diary entry does suggest to me that he didn't like the next step in the plan but orders are orders and SZ was there to make sure they were obeyed.
Also something I haven't suggested before is that the EM radiation from ball lightning can induce a sound, perhaps a rattling and they might have fled because of perceived noise.
Add in a little alcohol and some physical and mental stress..... You may have an issue.
"Nobody wanted to take this Zolotarev first, for he is a new man, but then they spat and took, because you can not refuse"
"They talked all sorts of nonsense, of course, everyone was interested, everyone said, Trying to shout over each other and refute other statements"
"even sometimes he says something insulting. Does he think I'm some kind of fool. And I generally like to pour oil on fire, damn me. "
"The mood is bad and probably will be two more days. Evil as hell."
Brunette chicky....
"Last night the boys stupidly joked. In my opinion, they do not need to pay attention, maybe they will be less rude."
"Igor all the evening was rude, I just did not recognize him."
It's not easy to have in mind what the place of the event looks like.
Unfortunaly I don't speak russian, but I've found 2 russian amateurs videos interesting to watch to "feel" the Khlolat landscape
during summertime (start at 11'00'')
https://youtu.be/GGnuTUr4G8k
during wintertime (mostly 0 to 14')
https://youtu.be/0feP5n3wa2k
The rescue party created one of the slits chipping through the very hard snow, which is an indication (together with the hot spot and raised footprints) that the snow had been warmed and refrozen. They also removed one of the sections to get inside from memory. But afaik all the other slits are original or caused by flapping (not very probable imo).
Personally i don't think the question of the slit being cut from inside or outside is very important. If outside it could still have been one of the two better dressed. More important imo are the numerous slits, they were observing something very important. You don't cut that many slits to watch the moon... and then there's the three heads photo...
No my theory for the ravine four is that they were crushed in the den and had to be quickly dug out (suffocation in approx 30mins) and laid a few meters away from it. What first aid could be given for a crushed skull, flail chests and a corpse? Except perhaps gather clothing from the dead to assist the living.... This fits with the evidence, SZ wearing LD's stuff, pathologist said he would have outlived her.
@Nigel with the theory of the Igor, Slobadin, and Zina looked after the four in the creek bed before heading back to the tent for supplies. I need to better understand the position of the snow shelter in relation to the creek bed. If the 4 were alive, I would think they would have tried to get them to the snow shelter. There dosn't to appear to be any type of first aid given. Under this scenario I would think Igor, Slobadin, and Zina were trying to get up to the tent to save themselves with no intention of coming back down.
Their behaviour at the cedar is too organised to be hallucinating/intoxicated/crazy etc.
ZK/ID/RS were trying to return to the tent after digging the ravine 4 out and nursing them. That all three gave up within 330 meters of each other is significant imo. Could be windchill or could be microwaves. ZK's face was covered in blood from scratches and abrasions.
The two Yuris show much more frostbite than any of the others. Probably because they were observers in the cedar and suffered far more wind chill. Falling from the cedar and lying concussed and unattended can explain the burns. An explosion could cause this and would explain the collapse of the den and the dead birds.
I read something in one of the journals about a camp fire that got out of control, but there was no mention regarding any coat/jacket being burned up in the process. You would think if this were the case, it would be a key part of the story in the journal.
Or.. could this be another mysterious Igor stove conundrum?
I contemplated the same idea. If you were walking down hill and collapsed due to (insert reason here), you likely would not willingly go down on your face. You would naturally plop down on your azz and lay back from there... Possibly roll over. To me, the head facing orientation is irrelevant for several reasons. I can picture those two never making it down in the first place, but it also makes me ask why would they not even make it to the tree line given they were fresh outta the tent? This was a ruski that was bit by a viper and refused to transfer her load onto the rest of her team on a previous trip.
I also think of all these ideas of who some of the victims must have been fighting with given the nature of their 'hand to hand combat' injuries to the knuckles, temples, mouth etc. In my opinion, they were fighting among themselves and not against some intruder etc.
What I find odd is all this crap thats presumed to be 'fact'.
Example: Some Russian made the executive decision that the tent was slashed open from the inside. Now everyone considers this as fact right? Welp, what if there were already numerous rips in the canvas (Igors jacket stuffed in hole) and like the blonde chicky states in her diary (I used my time on duty sewing up all the darn holes in the tent blah bla bork spit). Lets just think logically here for a moment.... If you have a tent already full of holes collapsing in on itself in full-retard speed wind on the side of a mountain flappin away for WEEKS and rubbing on god knows what inside the tent... Ya think those holes/rips may get bigger? Point being.... Instead of running in circles trying to figure out why they slashed their way out, perhaps you can also debate why they may have buttoned up the front expected to return but not. Thats the outside of the box thinking I'm talking about.
"Oh, come on, LSD panic? Let's be serious here because these people were SERIOUS hikers. Let's NOT turn this into some sort of event where everybody lost their collective minds. Look at this objectively, okay?"
"There are a LOT of stories and posts out there (on the internet) that get facts WRONG."
"This forum provides us to toss out ideas as we see fit."
"I certainly won't go out of my way to afford everyone with some stupid explanation of UFO's or the Yeti nor Elvis impersonating someone in the Dyatlov party."
No offense Mikey, but your posts seem a tad.... Hypocritical? My replies may be short when working.
On a side note... I didn't just stumble into this crap because I recently saw Devils Pass. I did some pretty hard research om the subject years ago for my own self satisfaction. While I may not remember what food they packed or remember every word written in the diaries, I have a fair understanding of story line and main information that can be considered as fact and not conjecture. While I may not fancy some theories, you will not find me blatantly dismissing other folks opinion without thought or consideration.
Side note: My mother inlaw grew up roughly 100mi from where this happened and was of the age 9. If you don't think unregulated food products in back-woods Soviet Union can manifest unintended side effects from moldy rye used in bread.... You haven't done your research. I am not claiming this as a fact, nor that it was ingested purposely. Its simply a possibility, just like its 'possible' some nuke grads could have made a radioisotope heater the Russian gov just may not have wanted anyone to find out about.
Side note #2. Have you ever taken LSD? If so, you should know that peoples minds tend to grasp onto some wild idea and not let it go. You may find yourself searching for Atlantis in a field of grass because the bark on a tree led you to believe it was there. You may start your 'trip' with 8 other people and within a few hours have no freaking clue where they all went because you were so wrapped up in Atlantis hidden in the weeds. Perhaps in a few days you will contact your 8 buddies and find out where they went, with whom, what they did etc.
The two Yuri's died of hypothermia pretty quick. I'm thinking the group didn't realize how dire their condition was, and gave them instructions to start a fire, maybe with other people to help. We don't know. Anyway as we know, it failed and some of the two Yuri's clothes were collected. Meanwhile Igor is doing what he does and is trying to organize the others into two groups. One to work on a snow shelter and the other to go up to the tent for supplies. I could see everyone putting their 2 cents in and Zena getting pissed off and giving them a quick jester of disapproval, as she start heading up the hill, Slobadin's takes off after her. After Igor puts Sasha in charge, he takes off after Slobadin and Zena. As we know they never make it back and after a certain time, in their hastily constructed snow shelter, our 4 survivors decide they better go find some firewood and get a fire started. They stay together. 3 or all 4 end up fallout into the ravine that was hidden in someway probably with an ice/snow bridge or maybe just brush. After that I'm lost. I think Sasha and Lula died quick but hitting rocks, but the other two I'm not sure about.
I enjoy your candor. This is refreshing.
We do know facts on this. As much as we can ALL go by. The investigators (Russian translation "search engines"
The thing is that even a "natural" death seems suspect. Lots of things have to happen to create such a horrendous outcome. I think we all agree on that.
We have to think about what NOT made them leave the tent. All that is speculation. What needs to be focused on is, to start, why they did not run but WALKED down the slope. They did not run. Single file, 8 or 9 tracks according to the investigators. If 8, then why?
Slobodon was carried? who knows. but these questions need answered FIRST befor we all get to the cedar.
And I thank you for your investigation. All helps.
-Mikey
or low and wide in exposed places - http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-tent-01.jpg
This seems to have ruled out using the stove as it would hang too low for them to sleep underneath it and they'd get scorched.
The investigation was botched from the beginning. All WE have to go by is what WE, as informed people (and of course menial investigators) have at our fingertips. Many of us are NOT professionals at this.
This forum provides us to toss out ideas as we see fit.
I certainly won't go out of my way to afford everyone with some stupid explanation of UFO's or the Yeti nor Elvis impersonating someone in the Dyatlov party.
There IS an answer to this. If everyone looks in all the cracks and crevasses and finds an airtight solution, I'm happy. I know what I believe so far, but then I am willing to listen to others' ideas as well.
An open mind.
-Mikey
Look at this objectively, okay?
CLOTHES:
There were two types of clothes these hikers wore. We KNOW this. Outdoor hiking clothes and indoor sleeping clothes. Most were ready to bed down for the evening and have a meal before sleeping:
"The departure of the woodpeckers from the tent to the cedar, they explained by the long nature of the danger that took place on the slope and prompted hikers to urgently seek salvation in the Lozva Valley. Since the clothes of the dead clearly did not match the weather conditions, Moscow experts suggested that the danger caught up with those at the time of dressing."
The meat stash was open but wasn't really touched:
FOOD:
"The attention of the rescuers who tilled the tent attracted a large, kilogram by 3 weight, a piece of ham-loin extracted from the bag, and a strip of pigskin skin, torn from the ham, lying on the blanket. At the time when an emergency occurred with the group of Dyatlov, the hikers clearly intended to cut this "loaf" for reception in food."
There ya go.
Both of the above in italics explain why things are the way they were that night.
THE STOVE:
Igor- "He was the developer of a small-sized stove, which was used in trek in 1958-59. And proved its functionality. According to some reports, Dyatlov, it seems, was invited to stay in UPI after graduating from the institute to continue his scientific work. By 1959 Igor had considerable experience of distant hikes of varying degrees of complexity and among the members of the sports section of the sports club UPI was considered one of the most experienced athletes."
ALSO:
"Two bowlers, and also a cylindrical stove. Witnesses described the condition of the stove in different ways: some claimed that it was stuffed with chips and wood chips, while others said that parts of the chimney had been disassembled inside. For us it is important now to note that the stove at the time of emergency was clearly not used by the group for its intended purpose."
"Igor Dyatlov's hanging stove and chimney assembled (they were not used during the last night and found on the floor of the tent). Zone "A" - a place to the left of the entrance, where almost all the footwear of the group was found to be dumped."
There are many facets to this investigation. I have read that items in the tent were indeed re-arranged into small piles when found. Some investigating this in later years explain that the rescuers were "willy-nilly" at documenting everything in the tent, including taking a bottle of alcohol FROM THE TENT and drinking it that night, which belonged to the Dyatlov party. It has been documented.
ALCOHOL:
"Over dinner, the search engines decided to drink alcohol found in Dyatlov's tent, which was done with considerable (and quite understandable) enthusiasm. The episode with alcohol drinking is a very important point, which now needs to be paid attention, since it will still have to return in the course of the subsequent narrative. Then there was a very curious exchange of remarks, which can not be ignored. Boris Slobtsov offered to drink to the health of the wanted guys, to which forester Ivan Pashin responded very grimly: "You'd rather drink for the rest!" The students were enraged, considering the replica of the local resident cynical and inappropriate, the case almost came to a fight. Even then, after the discovery of the abandoned tent, none of them wanted to believe in the bad ... "
The initial investigation had many flaws.
I hope this answers some questions you may have.
-Mikey
If anyone's interested you can translate the text in the image by finding the right keys here - http://www.lexilogos.com/keyboard/russian.htm
and then copy and paste into google translate.
So although the brush was nearer it wouldn't have provided shelter from the wind. They opted to go further down for proper shelter and a vantage point to observe back to the tent.
https://ibb.co/bP7TZv
Happy to be shown the map is incorrect.
They were only 500m from the forest line - http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-flashlight.jpg
Like others have stated.... Judging by the last set of photos, they were digging in under extreme whiteout conditions on the side of a mountain with VERY limited visibility and extremely low neg temps. I HIGHLY doubt there was anyone else screwing around up there other then themselves. In my opinion, the first huge mistake was attempting to traverse that ridge under such conditions in the first place, secondly deciding to stay the night on that mountain only 1mi from a forest line. I don't care how experienced they were..... They made one huge mistake after another which cost them their lives.
http://zajimavosti.info/lukas-falteisek-proc-se-nedari-najit-tajemneho-vraha-datlovovy-expedice/
2014: https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ru&u=https://www.kp.ru/daily/26186/3075303/&prev=search
Looking for a book recommendation for someone already familiar with the case. Looking to read something that gets into a bit more detail than some of the more main stream books out there.
Thanks!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radioisotope_heater_unit
wikipedia/en/e/e8/Radioisotope_heater_unit.gif
Sidetracked, anyway if our resourceful campers could use the kerosene lamp/s for heat, that would save them from foraging for wood.
Don't think it was nuclear powered...
@Loose Cannon - under the section titled "Diary".
Yes i like the electric universe case for the scarring of planets and moons. But as to the cause i prefer some unknown solar behaviour to their ideas, where else could this amount of energy come from?
"It's warm. It is hard to imagine such a comfort somewhere on the ridge, with a piercing wind, hundreds kilometers away from human settlements.".
So he seems to be recognising that it will be harder up there.
They take the stove but camp near the summit but don't make a detour to pickup firewood from the forest just 800m away. It is all strange. I don't find it easy to explain this except that either they got lost or there was a last minute change of plan. From the last photos conditions were extreme, why not divert to the forest and camp there with a warm tent? Seems a fairly shallow climb for the following day...
Unless on the ascent they saw something and elected to photograph it perhaps? Is the camera on a homemade tripod an important clue?
Can't explain why the stove appears to be stowed. The state of dress of the two Yuri's under the tree tells me it was used.
Thanks for the links https://www.thunderbolts.info
Quite interesting theories about this electrical universe
About low angle meteors generating glowing balls this article is also quite interesting
https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Anomalous-Sounds-And-Electromagnetic-Effects-Associated-With-Fireball-Entry-by-Mary-Romig-and-Donald-Lamar.pdf
I've found in this scientific article "Relativistic-microwave theory of ball lightning" quite interesting also
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4916449/
The theorical studies of human injuries by microwave and and a very few real-life cases lead maybe to an explanation for the strange orange tan color of the corpses of the group.
Later the on " it was comfortable inside with the stove lit up. And we undressed almost like at home well, of course the ones who slept furtherest from the center felt cold, they were more or less dressed and the ones who are closest to the stove... they felt really hot, and usually no one wanted to sleep next to it... people on duty had to keep the stove warm; they lay next to it. When they felt cold, it was time to add firewood." From Dyatov Pass Keeps its Secrets by Irina Lobatcheva
I think Anna has ideas and I want to hear more of what she says. Maybe she has an idea that others here may enjoy listening to.
I'm open to that.
Give Anna some credit. I think she is on the right track. We ALL agree something happened at the tent to make them leave. We just don't know what. It's speculation. Something DID happen.
Of course what made them go almost a FULL mile to the cedar? With sleeping clothes? Come on, that is just stupidity. These hikers were not "run of the mill" screwballs, drunk, idiots.
EVERY one of them had been around the block. Even the gals had been shot and bit by a snake. And SURVIVED.
I, myself have been camping for years, since I was 5 years young and I bet each and every one of these people you would ask to help on a camping trip. No matter the weather. Each and every one would not only go with you but teach you things you never knew.
Each KNEW their shit and TEACH you what you needed to know.
Respects to Nigel, this WASN'T ball lightning. Sorry my friend, but you are grossly mistaken.
This was done by people who KNEW what they were doing. And the WHOLE party was taken by surprise, which I would be. Everyone here needs to notice something happened.
Not natural (as I thought at first), not ball lightning (which I considered), but a full fledged assault on innocent people who were in the wrong place at the wrong time.
You may be right. The tent door, as described, as looking down the slope was to the RIGHT facing where the storage was. But sideways.
"When the group was chased out of their tent they went down the slope to forest, not to the storage site where they had left provisions before climbing Kholat Syakhl. 19 items (total weight of 55 kg) among them cereals, sugar, wood, Krivonischenko's mandolin, pair of skis used to mark the location, 2 pair of shoes (ski and warm), an ice pick, a cap, mask and a shirt. The shed seemed undisturbed."
This may be a clue, being that nobody was at the storage but the hikers.
They went down the hill for a reason. It wasn't ball lightning. Maybe they wanted to watch it. If they were there to see it, nobody mentioned it in their diary, which most would have.
The objective was to climb the mountain.
Sure, they may have encountered ball lightning, but I DO NOT believe this is why they went all the way down the slope. As I have said, if it were me in charge of the party, go down the slope a bit of the way until the danger passed, THEN get back to the tent. No reason to go to the storage nor the tree line about a mile away. If you and I were in such a predicament, no shoes, sleeping clothes etc., obvious choice.
Ball lightning did NOT force them out of the tent. I say this with grey areas as to Nigel. Respectively. Somebody went in there and slashed it to make it useless to those who came back. Maybe from inside. We may not know.
What we DO know is that the whole party went down the slope, at least a mile. That's a trek with no shoes. Nobody in their right mind would do that if it were something like ball lightning. Not me.
Anna, I think you are right. SOMEBODY forced them down the slope as far as they got to the cedar. Outside of some Yeti or aliens (we forgo that) the only OBVIOUS answer is that someone FORCED them down that slope.
And you are right, the tracks do tell that they WALKED down, not RAN down. That tells something as well. The investigation was quite botched, but in snow, even after three weeks, the investigators noticed that there were no drag marks, as if they were running.
Anna, you are on to something.
And I do not believe ball lightning followed everyone around and killed them. This was done in a way to MAKE it look natural (and I started with that theory) but THIS was not natural.
They were killed.
Are you aware of the hot spot and the theory that the snow was unusually warm, the temp raised closer to it's melt point?
They didn't go to the storage house because there was no clothing there to protect them from the cold. It just had 55kg of food, a mandolin and a spare pair of skis they improvised as a sled.
Everything was in the tent and the plan was to monitor the tent from the cedar and return to it. It was a good plan except they didn't heed the mansi warnings about how dangerous these lights could be.
@Loic - interesting articles. I'm sure that science will one day explain why these lights phenomena are tied to localities and geology has to be a front runner.
I liked the second electrophonic article but need to consider it's implications, there's a possible connection with these guys - https://www.thunderbolts.info
@Anna
It puzzles me also why they didn't try to get the storage house instead of going to the opposite direction.
I think there were metallic items in the storage depot (canned food).
For me, they understood rapidly that they must leave their tent because of the presence of lots of metallic items (stove, ski pole, etc) attracting this kind of electromagnetic glowing bowl.
And if they were probably scared that if they went to the storage depot, these glowing balls would be attracted also by this place.
@Mike-
Sorry, I didn't forget about you.
Tracks in Siberian winter will last a long time. Remember, it never gets above freezing. Compressed snow (underfoot) may ice up and last a good long while, while preserving the tracks. One month may not be out of the possibility.
Even on this site it states the injuries as follows: Lyudia-ribs 2, 3, 4, 5 are broken on the right side, two fracture lines are visible
ribs 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 are broken on the left side, two fracture massive hemorrhage in the heart's right atrium
Semyon-flail chest, broken ribs 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 on the right side, two fracture lines
Copypasta from the "DEATH" section of this site.
@Anna-
Great to meet you. As to why they didn't go back to the storage area? I think there are many ideas on that. One of which is because they planned on returning to the tent when the coast was clear. Everything they needed was there. The storage was intended AFTER they scaled the mountain. The second is maybe an avalanche blocked their path? Third is what Nigel says, that ball lightning may have blocked their path. Fourth is that they were forced down the hill by an attacker.
I think they intended to go back to the tent. Igor, Zina and Slobodon were certainly trying to as to how and where they were found. They just didn't make it.
Conclusions are not easy to come to in this story. Read down to some recent comments and see if any scenario suits you or has a few ideas that you have. Finding airtight theorys will be hard to do.
I unfortunately have to agree with Nigel in regards to the avalanche theory. First, we MAY be able to place Slobodon (Rustem) into your theory Mike. He was in BAD shape going down that hill. He had skull fractures on BOTH sides of the head and a large fracture toward the front of the skull. According to those who performed the autopsy and medical practitioners, those injuries may have taken some time to set in and incapacitate him. Up to 30 minutes in the cold weather as well. Did he make it to the cedar and from there trudge back to the tent? He was found facing the tent going up the hill at 480 meters from the cedar. Did he notice that his injuries were making him not function properly and decided to turn around back to the tent before reaching the cedar?
The real clue is what happened to the ravine four.
Lyuda was a strong gal, but not so strong as to make it down that hill with such broken ribs AND one rib puncturing her heart. I myself have had just BRUISED ribs and I will say, standing or laying in certain positions is a true test of pain management.
Also take in the fact that Semyon had fractured ribs as well. As well as being the oldest and may have sustained rib injuries while with his armed forces, His pain would be the same as Lyuda, but with less injuries.
Just taking those two into account, walking down that hill, getting to the cedar, then branching off to the ravine would take some superhuman aptitude.
If an avalanche had taken place and just the people I mentioned sustained those injuries during the avalanche, I would be hard pressed to believe they even made it to the cedar.
Your theory bodes well with one of the hikers that was in a different party and joined the rescue operation. He was well experienced as well, even helped Igor construct the tent and indeed mentioned this fact during the rescue operation.
The problem is that many of the rescuers and investigators qualified the fact that there was no evidence to support the avalanche theory.
Could it have happened? Sure thing. Almost anything is possible in this mystery.
"electrophonic meteors and fireballs"
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1029/2001JA000310/full
http://meetingorganizer.copernicus.org/EPSC2013/EPSC2013-42.pdf
They went to the forest to shelter from the wind and associated wind chill. Local people reported extremely high winds that night. A temperature of -25C with high winds produces an effective wind chill temp of say -60C.
There was snow everywhere, on the ground and on the trees. Snow would reflect the light of the fire. Suggesting that they placed the fire behind the cedar to hide it is foolish. If they were escaping armed men the sensible thing would be to keep going, disperse and nominate a rendevous (perhaps the base camp).
They didn't stop at the nearest part of the forest but walked nearly twice as far (in their socks) to reach the cedar in order to observe the tent area - http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Dyatlov-pass-flashlight.jpg n.b. it has been established in previous posts that it is very probable that the moon hadn't risen yet and it was quite dark. So what they wanted to observe a mile back had to be illuminated in some way....
Svetlana Oss's book - "Don't go there" is an excellent piece of research with a similar conclusion to your author, which i don't agree with of course. I've also read "Dyatlov Pass Keeps it's Secrets" which is also excellent. I don't need to read a third book particularly if i already think the conclusion is nonsense.
The police investigator, Ivanov is on record as saying he thought the fireballs were connected to the deaths but was ordered to not include them in his report.
The plan went awry where the WHOLE party had to be extinguished. The best way to make it look "natural" was to confront them at the tent, make them strip of warm clothes and send them down the hill.
This seems logical. If ball lightning were to strike the tent, most in the party would only go down the hill part of the way. If me, that would be considered a good idea until the danger passed.
Something made them walk the mile into the forest.
I implore you to read the essay with an open mind. You may not agree, but it is very thorough and also may give you new ideas to your theory. The authors investigation is VERY detailed.
Take care and have fun with it.
-Mikey
@Mikey - as i said we'll have to agree to disagree. Any theory has to explain the facts and you don't light a fire in the dark if an armed gang want you dead.
One theory for the radiation is that they visited disused mines on the trek and may have picked up some contamination from direct contact.
No i haven't read his book, have you read this thread?
Are you aware of these links i've posted before? :-
http://www.ball-lightning.info
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_lightning
Look, explanations are never perfect, you know as well as I do. Nothing is perfect here. We may never know. But, the radiation threw me for a quick moment. Obvious is obvious. I would have initially thought that because some of the party worked in a "radiated" area, it would be no problem. Normal. Some of their clothes would have traces of radiation. Sure. I really didn't think of it because some DID work in radiated areas. That was no big deal to me if I were to think of this as a "natural" problem. Hey, If you and I were to work in those areas, of course our clothes would be suspect.
But, only a FEW items were irradiated. This creates a strong possibility that certain items had radiation. I.E. if Luyda had radiation on JUST the sweater she was wearing, why not her whole clothes? Ball lightning may have incapacitated her but radiation on JUST her sweater? And we do know that sweater was given to her by someone else. No radiation was on a single bit of her other clothes. Not a single bit on her trousers, her hat, and no other clothing. Only the sweater which was not hers. And she accepted it to stay warm. She had no idea that it had radiated isotopes on it, but she wore it anyway, which each and every one of us would wear, even if we knew.
It wasn't a big deal. The radiation may have helped.
Alas, she died, not by radiation but serious wounds (as bad as some of the team, if not more) and not by ball lightning looking to kill everyone. Ball lightning is indiscriminate and would have dissipated quickly.
Maybe the ball lightning DID take out a few birds and burnt the tops of trees. I give you that. RARE, but could happen.
Nigel, you did mention that they were there to photograph the ball lightning, but no entries in diary comments prove that. If they, including myself if I were there, would have written it down that was what I was actually looking for. No mention of that. Ball lightning? I would, and you would be too, writing that down in my diary that was was what I was looking for.
It never came up.
As a result, I have to agree to disagree on your theory. I am sorry.
Have you read the thesis by A. I. Rakitin?
I did. I glomed over the politics of it a bit, but I will go over it again. I like closure. This is closure.
Nigel, you and I may not agree on what happened but it may be in your best interest to notice a different idea.
Don't hold to just one. Give yourself time. You may be surprised.
With that, I will let you go. A friend indeed who gave me an idea of what you said, but airtight? I think not. Read. Maybe you come to the same conclusion. Just be open.
Thank you Nigel. You opened my eyes more than you think.
So they were forced out of the tent at gunpoint and forced to discard clothing/footwear but then allowed to disperse in the assumption that they would die of cold?
It's just rambling rubbish imo, sorry. The whole point of the lighting of the fire at the cedar is that it rules out any sentient threat.
Also the flashlight left switched on part way down the path to the cedar is assumed to be a beacon to assist the return.
Also they chose the cedar because it was the only place they could monitor the tent.
So they had to flee the tent in their socks, but expected to shortly return {before dawn, hence flashlight} but were unafraid to light a fire in the interim whilst they observed the tent waiting for this threat to go away.
You do not do those things if the threat is a group of armed men wishing you dead. The fire is the best piece of evidence to classify what the type of threat was.
It's fair comment that BL appearing at the tent and then exploding near the cedar is an ask. But then science doesn't know what BL is and what attracts or repels it. Human beings are electrical systems and their organs and blood are composed of metallic compounds (liver=copper, blood=iron}, the gases from a fire are a form of charged plasma that could have been blown towards the BL. We just don't know. And there's always pure coincidence of course.
I must say, it is a very compelling read. The translation to english is rough but the reader can infer what the writer is trying to convey.
At first, myself as a person based in reality, I leaned toward an obvious "natural" ideal on how to look at this mystery. How in the world can EVERY person in the party come to such a horrible demise? Maybe I am naive in the fact that how can innocent people could be harmed in such a violent way? Experienced people at that. So, I opted to trust how I felt instead of leaving my eyes open to a completely foreign idea that just plain escaped me.
Nigel, I looked at your hypothesis, which would be considered natural, but as leaning toward your idea, I was still in the middle of reading the above theory. (link above) Some things still didn't add up.
The three areas of real concern are 1) The tent, 2) The cedar and 3) The ravine. Each have very peculiar circumstances involved as to what was happening to the party. Each had to have something "controlled" to make things turn out the way they did. The ball lightning idea is not "controlled" and therefore must be respectfully ruled out because in each instance, I do not believe the ball lightning followed each group in a priority to kill them.
Also, my idea of no ball lightning but natural cause and effect did not add up either. If there was no outside force "controlling" these experienced campers, somebody, if not more, would have survived. The wounds on each could NOT have been completely natural, as I have suggested, minus ball lightning. Maybe a few situations could happen to experienced campers, but NOT all.
As looking, reading and determining an airtight theory as to what happened, I believe that the A. I. Rakitin hypothesis is the most airtight as I have found.
I admit, it goes COMPLETELY against how I feel about humanity. The death of Dyatlov and his team are beyond comprehension, there was not a single ounce of compassion toward these people. Especially the women. I find that dire. Of course, that's just me. I know in history there are cases like this, but I kinda refused to actually believe people could do this.
Read the above (link) at your leisure. As I explained, the translation is rough, but understandable. The A. I. Rakitin story so far is the BEST theory I have seen so far.
Everyone take gentle care. Comments or questions are forever accepted.
From memory my previous answer was that if i was presented with this frame with no knowledge of the dpi i could agree with you.
But i know that they cut slits in the tent and that there was a strong wind blowing snow along the ground and one camera was found inside the tent on a makeshift tripod to photograph something.
So imo it's a bit of a coincidence that this random damage that you see should look very much like an extremely bright light source illuminating horizontal snow/graupnel photographed from inside a tent slit catching the curled canvas and weave at the bottom of the frame....
Yes, the Soviet Union back then was a bit of a police state, bribes were the norm and killing off detractors without pity definitely happened.
If indeed it was the "higher-ups" who pulled this off, these hikers were pretty well-to-do. Many were in school and worked at nuclear sites as well. One has a father that was pretty high up in the Soviet establishment.
I agree that in those days, just pulling a gun and capping people did happen. This operation (if it so took place) would have to be masked as to make it look as if it were an accident so as not to raise the peoples' suspicions.
The pic that Nigel pointed to, with the three heads, yeah, it could be over exposed film but if it is a true pic of something, that something is brighter than a conventional flashlight. You can see the saturation in it.
1. I'm not sure you've fully considered the meaning of your photo, yes it's clear it's over exposed but it's clear what is was meant to be....
2.Now what could have been the cause of the over exposed three heads photo (i.e. assuming your point)? Because there aren't many lights that bright on the top of a siberian mountain... Unless ....
http://tonybuk.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/03870005.jpg
Because this was outside it - http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Zolotaryov-camera-01.jpg
Yes, the stove was not hooked up but as you can see, in your scenario, it is very hard to determine exactly what happened. Even coming barely close to an airtight theroy is difficult. Why rip the tent? Agreed, really stupid move if the bright idea was to saunter down the hill and start a bonfire. Also remember that from the tent to the cedar was about a mile. That's a hike maybe in bad weather and cold, some not fully dressed for the elements.
@Nigel- The dead birds and the tree tops singed (burnt) does give me pause. You are right. Nothing is of the ordinary here. Conventional wisdom tells us there is a true explanation but so far, it's hard to nail things down so that everything fits perfectly.
Well whatever happened that night is very definately in the very rare domain...
There's nothing ordinary about the DPI.
I really like the following scenario for the ravine 4 :-
They're all in the den sat on their seats placed as if on the four corners of a square. NTB has his jacket unzipped and his gloves in his pocket (this is how he was found), this is because the den is warm...
Now rotate the square into a diamond so that each corner is at the cardinal point of the compass - North at the top, South at the bottom and East and West are at the same "latitude".
Now put AK at North, NTB at South and LD and SZ at East and West.
Now there's an explosion from the South that pushes the southern corner of the den towards the North. Everyone falls off their seat except AK who hits his head hard against the North corner. LD and SZ lie at the same "latitude" with their chests between the East/West latitude and the North one. Because NTB has fallen from the South position he is further down so that his head lies between the chests of LD and SZ. Now the explosion has weakened the den roof and (say) 2 tonnes of snow/ice (possibly thermally compacted) falls down on top of them with the main force between the two "latitudes" stated above. This crushes 2 chests and one skull but no limbs. Before this drop AK has bounced off the corner and the fall drives his head into his knee snapping his neck.
N.B. an explosion would explain how YK fell out of the cedar and lay unconcious and unattended for long enough to burn his leg. Maybe YD was up there as well.
"Group was sleeping in the tent in the very early morning around 1 a.m. or 2 a.m. and everybody was miserably cold. Someone had a bright idea, let’s head down to the tree line and start a big fire."
There might be some truth in this in my opinion.
Hypothermia makes you undress, but some individuals might also panic. It depends of the individual. When you realize you are dying it can make you freak out. This was the first night without stove on, if i understand correctly. They went into light hypothermia, and some of them started to panic or get aggressive. Yelling and punching, perhaps. They could not light up the stove because there was no firewood around.
This was their biggest mistake, not collecting firewood before the dark. Some members were propably quite comfortable still and wanted to continue sleeping, but some others, at least one member, went into hypothermia and started to behave aggressively demanding that they should walk down to collect firewood. Of course this theory has holes in it too. Why cut the tent? Totally stupid move. At least one of them must have been pretty out of control to do that. Like he wanted rest of them to die, cutting the tent in anger.
Another one is of course why not to dress up fully for the trip down? It's just crazy move. It's hard to think that they did this because their hypothermia was so far developed. It's not impossible though. Main question remains: this was their first night without stove on, and without collecting firewood for it. Why? God damn, why?
Experienced hikers. Preparing to sleep in subzero conditions without heat and if i understand, without proper modern sleeping bags. It just buzzles me.
They possibly thought they can handle it well enough. Most of them possibly did, but somebody of the did not. In the army it never was that the whole tent was complaining about the cold, it was usually one individual. Others were coping with it just about.
The ravine/den is a different can of worms.
(1)Ball lightning is a possibility but with all due respect to Nigel, it can be considered very rare to incapacitate four people other than exploding. It can be considered very rare.
(2)All four fell into the ravine/den at certain close intervals (snow giving way) and fell on top of each other. All were pretty much incapacitated and as we know, they were carrying firewood at the time, which may explain the building of the floor, but who was well enough to do that? Maybe the floor was built first and they went out to collect more wood and fell in afterward?
(3) Somebody else was there with combat training and knew how to take them all out quickly? Lyudmila missing tongue (maybe bit off during fall) may have been so outspoken that the attacker decided to chop her tongue to shut her up?
If I am missing something, please add to it.
But, with those three possibilities, I would opt for the more natural that they all fell in on top of each other and gained a whole world of hurt all the way around.
This of course is not to take away from Nigel's theroy, but the ball lightning is not only possible, but a rare occurrence.
In a group, in the dark, carrying firewood and not sure of footfalls, one falls in, the next falls, foot lands on someone's head, cracks skull with ball of foot, the next falls face forward on top and breaks ribs and the next falls sideways onto the rest and breaks ribs on one side. Not in that order of course.
Something to contemplate if you were to look at a natural way.
Sure, we can throw the Yeti and/or UFO's into the mix but I sure don't wish to go that route. All three are plausible and would NOT discount them.
Again, if I am missing another idea, please share. I'm open to all opinions.
@Mike Smith/@TP - the question isn't why weren't the footprints covered in snowfall (very windy) but how did these prints survive the wind for over three weeks? There are clues that the snow was warmer that night and closer to it's melt point. This would create a much firmer footprint that when it refroze could survive for that period. Clues are :-
1. Hot spot.
2. Most of the group suffered very little or no frostbite. How come in -25C with a wind chill at say -60C?
3. The best explanation i have for the ravine deaths is that the den collapsed on top of them. This theory involves the snow softening with heat which would greatly increase it's weight and reduce it's structural integrity.
Cause of the warming = the cause of the ball lightning = microwaves.
Also regarding the "murder theory", LD, SZ and NTB were killed by a force of super human strength. LD and SZ's fractures apparently would need a fall of 60 feet. But neither suffered any other fractures or bruising. It would be quite improbable for one person to exhibit this profile, for two to do so rules out falling imo. They were crushed imo.
The initial investigation at the sight gives us some idea but how can we interpret those initial findings? How accurate were they? I think they add to the problem of this mystery.
I never thought of that concept! Just saw your post and it is very interesting. Sasha being used to PROTECT the team and ultimately failed. That is different from the ball lightning idea. I like the way you think!
I don't believe this is political, BUT it would match the fact that no items were stolen, no monies stolen, only lives. This could include the military. The thing is that someone would have yapped about it. Ben Franklin once said that three people can keep a secret as long as two are dead.
Nothing has come out of anything like that.
This team had been around the block. If you were to go hiking or camping, and you were a novice, you would ask ANY of them to go along and teach you what they know. Young and impressionable? YES. but they KNEW what they were doing.
Political? Inside job? Maybe, but I doubt it. Nobody pulls this off without somebody yapping about it. Sure, the Soviets were VERY secretive but after years and years, somebody should have come forward.
My compliments to both Nigel and Rick. Very good ideas, but I am not sure. I enjoy a good mystery and this is good. Not to take away from the plight of those who met their demise, which is a horrible outcome, but to offer new ideas as to what may have happened.
Thank you all for allowing me to post. I enjoy this forum.
I was thinking about the "Sasha" Zolatarev inside job idea. He was certainly political. He survived the Great Patriotic War, which was no small feat. Politics in the former Soviet bloc were crazy back then. Many different factions and different ideas. They still are to this day. Communism v/s socialism v/s fascism still run true in Russia. Back then, in 1959, the cold war with the U.S., many military were indoctrinated into different facets of socialism/communism. Many people came out of that with vile hatred toward freedom and individualism. Everybody had to be the same in many brainwashed eyes.
Wether "Sasha" Zolatarev was an "infiltrator" and joined the group to kill over politics may remain to be seen. He was killed rather harshly as well in the ravine. Ribs broken as Lyudmila Dubinina was as well.
Lyudmila enjoyed the company of older people and hung out with them much more often.
"Sasha" Zolatarev is dead, almost the same as she died. Whatever political (and if anything it would be political or military being no valuables were taken) differences, I don't think Sasha Zolatarev would pull something like this.
Agreed, he is a trained killer, but not like that. Plus, he is dead, and done in in an awful way.
Something else happened in that ravine.
Great call Rick, I thought about it as well. With all our ideals, maybe we can figure out an airtight solution to what happened.
Take care my friend.
Yes, it has been said that ball lightning is very well known in that area. The Mansi have it in their lore. I am more inclined to lean toward your theroy than most others. That would terrify me! A Yeti would too, but that is HIGHLY improbable.
Something did happen though. I don't know if they RAN down the hill or WALKED. Some reports say that they walked almost single-file, straying a little, but wound up at the cedar tree. Unfortunately the investigation was not completely conclusive in that matter. Wind swept snow could cover many traces as to whether they were dragging feet, jumping, meticulous and such with their footfalls. Any ideas on that Nigel? It could prove very important.
Thanks for your answer, and as to posting here, I agree, let us all be considerate. No reason to be angry because we all have opinions and each one have merit because NOBODY really knows EXACTLY what happened unless someone here comes up with an airtight theroy. With this mystery, it is very hard to do. Take care.
@Mikey - imo they intentionally went to the cedar in order to observe the tent to return when the threat had gone. The base camp was around the mountain and didn't have any clothing or boots, it was mainly a food store (55kg) for the return journey. Everything they needed to survive the cold was in the tent. It all fits with the photos attributed to SZ showing the light moving across the sky. Imo the three heads photo is it coming to rest outside of the tent. So it was a reasonable assumption for them that it would soon be on it's way. However the metal objects in the tent perhaps acted as attractions and it didn't move requiring them to extend their stay at the cedar and build a fire and then a den.
That said, I think they ALL made it down safely to the cedar tree in good condition, although very cold with all the bumps, bruises, scrapes and wounds that go along with a normal hiking trip. We ALL get the normal bumps, scrapes and bruises when we go camping. It happens. Fish hook in the eyeball and whatnot...lol... BUT I do think they made it to the cedar tree pretty safely. Even started a fire using wet wood, enough to burn themselves a bit.
Whatever the case may be as to WHY they left the security of the tent and did NOT go toward the salvation of their storage will probably be constant speculation. Whatever terror they encountered, I don't think it hurt them physically in any way.
I think I will start my hypothesis at the cedar tree...
And again, thank you for letting me post!
In his/her synopsis and investigation it is gratifying to actually read about the investigation, the actual autopsies, and other things that are reported incorrectly on this matter. It was quite well done. Thanks for allowing me to post and I hope to join the conversation soon.
It took me all night but I read through every single comment posted here. Your theory is the only theory I've read that makes sense on all account. I've enjoyed reading what you have to say and even when you were attacked by someone who clearly had different, strong opinions you remained polite and respectful. This is such an interesting and sad story. Thank you for sharing your theory and thoughts.
The foot prints tell a different story. A) there would have been some form of evident that he had followed the group back. B) the footbrints to the cedar indicate that they walked in an orderly fashion--not that the ran fleeing for their lives.
If I was trying to escape someone who was trying to murder me I would not go start a fire to show them where I am located.
Yuri Yudin was obsessed with one of the women. He may have very well wanted to leave the group but came back and followed them. First, without them knowing he was there, he tormented them and scared them. I believe forensics were incorrect regarding the cuts to the tent. I believe this was done from the outside. The killer would have been in a rage. The hikers fled in a massive panic. The brutality done to Lyudmila Dubinina was an act of a spurned would be lover. He took out the worst atrocities on her. The others were killed in a homicidal rage. The bruising to the skin and slightly deeper layers did not show due to the freezing snow and low temps. Two of the men had been exposed to radiation before and explains any read outs. The truth is much more simple. This was an act of murder.
1. why leave the tent without footwear/outer clothing?
2. why abandon the tent at all in favour of the forest but climb a tree to observe the tent and leave a flashlight turned on part way on the journey presumably to assist a return?
3. injury profile requires superhuman strength, pathologist says like in a car accident or bomb shockwave.
I can't see any mention of X-rayed limbs. But the examinations of the skull and the chest/abdomen seems thorough enough and any gross deformity of the limbs would be obvious? So we're still left with a strong force that can snap multiple ribs on multiple fracture lines but not appear to affect the arms or collar bones?
(Actually is a pretty interesting movie, follows the facts up until........)
A crushing force through a layer of snow (small collapse followed by a big collapse) could explain the lack of bruising and the targeting nature.
The idea seems to have legs, the wind+snow creates free electrons (like with lightning and thundersnow) and circulates them in vortexes as it passes over the undulating terrain. Then all you seem to need is a magnetic field and you're amplifying background radiation perhaps? Wrt the mag field i remember reading that in the cold war the Soviets tried to build a radar complex in this region but had to abandon it due interference with local magnetic fields presumably from metallic ore deposits.
Hessdalen is an ore rich region...
And the physics of microwave radiation cause radically different affect depending on the frequency. Frequencies that would damage organs might have no effect on the skin at all, and vice versa.
But to answer your post, you refer to Rustem several times but the more interesting cases surely are LD, SZ and NTB. N.B. NTB's injuries were more severe than given on this website, the base of the skull was also cracked right across.
But for all three the big anomaly has to be that they don't display any bruising to explain the fractures?
My favourite theory is that the whole mountain was witihn a microwave field and that the bruising on the face and hands is consistent with radiation burns. There's empirical evidence in other cases that this burning is also connected with ball lightning, which i presume to be an effect of the microwave field.
I think it's generally accepted that ID died of hypothermia (bladder had 1 litre of urine) but he may be the only one?
First of all explosion: There are three major mechanisms for explosive trauma to humans. Overpressure: this high pressure wave extends outward from the primary area. As a rule if one person in an area dies from this type of trauma, the others are at equal risk. A tent would not provide protection. Typical of over pressure injuries are blast lung (bloody pulmonary edema, perforated bowel. Cerebral edema but no skull fractures. Perforated eardrums. Usually a pressure wave in air causes lung and brain trauma, while one in water causes bowel injuries.
Shrapnel causes penetrating injuries not really seen here.
Injuries from being thrown. Can cause blunt trauma seen here, but the blunt injuries of Rustem and the lower four individuals did not occur at the same time. (I agree that their injuries would have significantly impaired mobility.
A very powerful blast may create a "wind" effect which tends to dismember by tearing off legs etc.
Next hypothermia: As hypothermia progresses two behavioral changes occur which might have affected some of the findings. First: paradoxical undressing-in the last stages of activity during severe hypothermia, the patient begins to feel warm and sometimes attempts to remove his clothes. I wonder if this occurred with dyatlov. It might also explain the position of his arms if he was trying to unbutton things. Also confusion sets in. Even experienced decision makers are unable to think logically. I would expect that at least some of the actions to be illogical and disorganized.
Skull fractures: to me it looks like two very specific mechanisms. Rustem would have impacted a flat or irregular surface, while the injury lower down the slope is compatible with a very localized blow or Impact
Fight injuries The knuckle injuries on Dyatlov and Rustem are compatible with a fight as well as the superficial facial injuries on Rustem. If Rustem's injuries were from being rolled around or some other thing, i wound expect cuts and bruises on all sides of the head as well as on other body parts.
Hope this is interesting.
Thanks, I now have a better understanding of the den. If the den collapsed, that would have sucked big time.
- natural and massive electrical discharge
Interesting to read
https://sites.google.com/site/mezoelectric/dyatlov-pass-incident-1
I've discovered this case 2 years ago while watching the Discovery TV "documentary" about the russian Yeti...
I've read lot a stuff about this mystery and for me the most convincing theory is a king of lightning ball.
Probably the geology of the area generate magnetic anomalies, coupling with the particular shape of the mountain creating vortex winds, made the perfect conditions to create reccurent lightning bowls.
They were probably awaken by a massive orange glowing orb next the tent. They cut the tent to see it, try to photograph (tripod) but understand rapidly that is was a kind of electrical phenomena.
They leave in a hurry the tent regarding the presence of the metallic Stove.
During their run, maybe they were (nearly?) hit by this lightning ball and have to left the metallic flaslight.
They wait under the Cedar. They climb the tree to watch the glowing ball still standind near the tent, too long to recover themself from hypothermia.
4 tried to make a den but they were to injured to survive.
At last, this electrical phenomena disapeared and the 3 survivors try to reach the tent but they were too exhausted...
A uncompelling natural force...
Group was sleeping in the tent in the very early morning around 1 a.m. or 2 a.m. and everybody was miserably cold. Someone had a bright idea, let’s head down to the tree line and start a big fire. Everyone was in agreement. Being overconfident, they didn’t dress very warm but just wanted to get moving and maybe the temperature was not so bad outside ~5 degrees F, not wanting to try to get properly dressed in the darkness with just a flashlight or 2 with 9 people in a small tent they said screw it, I am going how I am, get down fast and make a nice hot fire and I am going to cut my way out, the tent needs sewing anyways (maybe the fireplace was in the way of the entrance?). They made it down to the tree line and making a fire was not as easy as everyone thought. The wind started to really pick-up and the temperature dropped. Some guys climbed the tree trying to get some dry firewood and ended up getting cold and no able to get back down and eventually fell. The group split some tried to make it back to the fire and some tried to get down lower to build a shelter. The ones who tried to make a shelter either fell down the ravine or a big portion of the ravine caved in a brought a heavy massive amounts of snow on them.
http://virtoo.ru/almanach/nepoznannoe/pereval-dyatlova.html
@mkk - the photos do display water damage on top of an exposed image as i would expect. Eagle has water damage, whatever chicken was has been obliterared by water damage. I cannot see any water damage on three heads. That's the original exposure imo.
@Saturnalia - there's nothing supernatural about ball lightning, it's a rare natural phenomena that has attracted theories from very eminent physicists. For conventional BL there seem to be two types, 1. glowing shells typically produced from lightning strikes that hover close to the ground and don't last long, say 90 seconds. 2 - lights in the sky that last for several hours, these lights are larger (hessdalen - "as big as a barn"
I'm not expert on water damaged film either, but my reading suggests black and white film will be damaged in a variety of ways, depending on the time under water and how it's treated during the drying out / processing stage.
A quick google image search of water damaged film does bring up some examples with big white patches, though i agree they tend to be more streaky / linear and are somewhat different to the 'flashes' on Sasha's film.
Re winding the film, I'm not 100% sure but I think Sasha was using a Zorki 1 rangefinder camera, and as far as I can work out there's nothing unique on this camera with regard to winding the film back into the canister. If you wanted to unload the film in an everyday situation, you'd just hit and switch and then turn the rewind spool until the film came off the advance spool. The other option would be to unload the film without rewinding the pool in a dark room. My guess is you'd do the later in this case, because there'd be less risk of damaged the film further in the rewinding process. Can't see why there'd be any need to finish off the roll of film before unloading it. Though maybe that's a quirk of this camera?
I don't know anything about film and stuff, so I googled it a little. It seems that water damage wouldn't result in random bits of the film being exposed (like all the "white blob" pics). Whatever was exposed would stay, but the picture might look a bit blurry or muddy or something.
Here are a couple links to photographers who actually soak their film in various liquids (saltwater, orange juice, wine, etc) to get interesting effects.
https://www.lomography.com/magazine/186270-destroying-film-to-play-with-color
http://blog.freepeople.com/2015/06/diy-film-soaking/
The above use color film, but there doesn't seem to be anything about B&W that would cause it to work much differently.
http://www.apug.org/forum/index.php?threads/film-and-water.45669/
(I'm not sure whether these links will be clickable, but you can copy & paste.)
The other suggestion I've read is that the person who recovered the camera & removed the film had to "use up" the remaining film in the lab in order to remove it from the camera. I don't understand why this would be. The old cameras i remember simply had a little knob that flipped out so you could wind up the film back into the roll before you took it out and put in a new roll. There's no reason you'd have to completely expose the film first. As a matter of fact, since the camera & film had been wet, I'd imagine that the developer wouldn't want to roll it back up at all before developing it because that might cause further damage to the film.
So, in spite of the strangeness of the photos, I can't find a good reason to discount them entirely.
Most of the pics on this site from his camera seem to be close-ups of small parts of the photographs. Is there any way to see the actual photographs, full-size, without cropping?
Wrt the witnessed lights, there were three reports from different highly dependable witnesses over three months including the rescue/investigative team itself who even radioed HQ over concerns for their safety. I'll agree that there's a question mark over the date of the ski party sighting (different sources disagree), but there is no question of the veracity of the three events from Jan to March 1959. Adding this to the fact that the Mansi have a pagan religion built around these lights (Golden Lady) and a more recent expedition recorded a light event that lasted over four hours and i think it's fair to say that the ball lightning theory has a basis in fact. The lights are real.
.. and there's no other theory for the DPI that fits all the facts...
@Nigel Evans I'm afraid I think what you're describing is paradelia. I simply don't see what you're seeing re the 'three heads' photo. These photos all come from a camera that spend three months under snow and water. No wonder they're damaged / light exposed. Additionally, much seems to be made about the camera being left cocked. Zorkis (and all russian viewfinders of that era) had famously fickle speed dials; the shutter must be cocked before the dial is adjusted. For this reason most users kept them cocked to avoid damaging the camera accidentally if the dial was knocked or adjusting without thinking.
However, if you do think they depict a massive light event; then sure, I agree there'd be enough light to take some photos. My below commentary is based on there being normal night lighting conditions, including a good moon or a torch or two.
I don't think it being a relatively bright night etc. overcomes the need for very good light to get a decent exposure. They are using flashless cameras, and flow speed film (I assume 100 or 200 ISO/ASA - 400 ISO/ASA didn't really come out until the early 70s).
Also, can you tell me what type of Zorkis they were using? Models 1 - 4 were available at the time. The photo on the camera section here appears to be a Zorki 1, but I've read on another forum someone had a Zorki 4.
SZ was (it is assumed) a KGB agent and hence presumably well trained in using his second camera for day or night shots. If the photos are genuine then it wasn't dark! Imo the three heads photo is from inside the tent. If so then it seems plausible that he took the plane/eagle photos outside, got cold and returned inside were shortly after the GLO appeared right outside the tent, it's not a perfect shot it does seem a little over exposed but to be fair he was probably getting worried by then.
If you look under the "TENT" link above you'll see that when they descended they walked an extra 800 meters past the start of the treeline to reach the cedar which was the tallest tree by far and apparently provided a view of the tent from it's top half. This means that if the GLO was at the tent it would illuminate the top half of this tree and act as a beacon. That they walked twice the distance necessary to gather firewood is significant imo. They needed to get the the cedar because there was something at the tent to monitor.
There would have been very low light inside the tent, and one would need to use a very low shutter speed to even body attempting a photo. At any shutter speed below 1/60th you need to use a tripod otherwise you get a blurred image. I know no photo was taken inside the tent, but maybe someone thought about giving it a go in the fading afternoon light, set up the shot, and then decided it was a lost cause?
Also, is there any suggestion they were carrying light meters? I haven't picked on any suggestion they were? I'm pretty sure the 50s Zorkis didn't had inbuilt ones.
Anyway, just be reading again the camera section here, and a lot is made of the extra camera found around Zolotaryov's neck, supposedly taken by him when he left the tent to take photos of whatever terror was unfolding. This seems to miss a crucial point, it was dark! Manual rangefinders need light to work. Without a flash, there'd be no point taking the camera to take photos of whatever was occurring. Seems to me he was either just wearing it already, or keeping it safe to use another time.
No my theory doesn't require lightning. The thundersnow theory is an alternative one to explain the ravine deaths and possibly YK/YD. A strong lightning strike has been known to throw people 30ft through the air and strip them naked. It's a good theory to explain natural barotrauma and burns and burnt clothing. But of course a weakness of the theory is that it requires very bad luck that the strike hits the ravine close enough to be fatal. N.B. the fire at the tall cedar might have encouraged the strike...
But the "ball lightning at the tent followed by a collapse of the snow den theory" doesn't need it. They are alternative natural phenomena theories to explain the injuries. Currently i like the two phase collapse of the den the best. Doesn't make it true of course...
Like I said earlier, I do love your theory - but the negatives from Semyons camera aren't proof of anything. They're incredibly damaged and aren't necessarily photographs of light sources at all. I saw a good explanation from a photography expert but I can't find it.
I think Igor's last photograph is more telling, but even that could be anything.
Also, your theory involves severe lightning. You don't need to climb a tree in order to see ball lightning or some other extreme light phenomena. If it was extreme enough to make them slash their tent, surely it was lighting up the sky. Pretty obvious if it is still around the tent or not, no need to scale a tree.
Climbing a tree around lightning is illogical and obviously dangerous too. I think someone climbing so high (5 meters?) points towards someone trying either to hide or escape from something - or trying to provide a vantage on something that isn't so obvious as a ball of light. Or they were hypothermic and irrational and their tree climbing actions were chaotic. Firewood is another theory.
A good theory has to explain what kind of threat could cause them to vacate the tent area but seek to monitor it in order to return.
Searching for an explanation for these facts we have eye witness accounts of lights and photos attributed to SZ.
The tent's canvas showed no signs of smoke or burn damage. Nor do any objects inside the tent. There certainly wasn't a large fire inside there because everything would be burnt. So maybe just smoke?
I agree that smoke is a great motivator to slash the tent - but it doesn't explain the horrific injuries that occurred later. It also doesn't explain why they walked so far from the tent. After the smoke was exhausted - why not grab your shoes? Why walk off barefoot?
Your theory has to deny the photos attributed to SZ, my theory embraces them.
YK's burn was a foot long (30cm) and the skin was charred down to the underlying tissues. It is accepted that this couldn't be accidental. Either he was unconcious or tortured or already dead or something else. That he bit his hands so hard rules out some of those. We can't prove where the burn came from but i like it as a reason for immediately vacating the tent.
It might not have been -20C, Ctrl F this page for hot spot.
I don't buy that they immediately vacate the tent and leave their clothing because the weather scared them. It was something stronger than that. Cue SZ's three heads photo.
Glad you like the theory overall.
The footprints were almost all from people without boots. Either they are genuine or fabricated, no possibility of contamination. The wind exposes or covers depending on the shape of the terrain. The bigger question is how did they survive 4 weeks, cue the warm snow theory.
It doesn't have to be something as rare/controversial and unprecedented as ball lightning for the theory to make sense. It could've just been normal lightning or bad wind. Have some terrifying, loud inclement weather roll over you and it can cause a panick, which leads to the tent being cut open.
From there, the only logical thing to do is to move to cover which is the tree line. The bad weather was still a pressing concern so most didn't bother getting correctly dressed, they just got out of there. Loud wind or stormy conditions may have made them worry about avalanche or snow drift which makes the tent on the slope a scary place to stay. They probably weren't thinking about consequences, they just wanted to get out and assumed they could come back for their items later.
I don't agree with you in your assessment of the burns. I think it is perfectly reasonable to expect freezing people without shoes be so desperate for warmth that they burn themselves without realising. I believe the burns were probably caused by the fire at the cedar tree. It is easy to burn yourself when huddled up by a fire, especially if you're drifting in and out of consciousness or suffering from hypothermia.
You mention it wasn't that cold. Most estimates put the weather that night to be around -20C. I don't care if you're a Jamacain or an Eskimo, being shoeless in -20C with high wind and wet snow would be enough to put your body into shock and begin hypothermia. This is scientific fact. They would have not been comfortable by any means. Sure, they didn't all have frostbite but you don't need horrific frostbite to die of hypothermia.
I agree with your general idea about the injuries they suffered. I think it was a combination of falls and impact with debris due to inclement weather. It isn't a coincidence that the individuals in the "snow den" had the worst of the impact injuries.
I think the most likely solution is bad weather scared at least one of the hikers to make them slash their way out of the tent. This rendered the tent inhospitable so they moved to get cover. Murphy's law took over and provided the rest.
Overall, your theory is excellent. I understand that the camera being on the corpse of Semyon may be a sign of some weird and wonderful weather phenomena occurring. Ivor's last photo might point to the same thing. As does the eye witness reports of light around the general area.
One question I have is about the footprints. Surely we can't put much stock into them. The investigators had no idea of the nature of the mystery when they found the sight and more than likely contaminanted the scene on arrival. Also, if enough snowfall occurred to essentially completely obscure the bodies - how were footprints still visible?
However Wu is discussing lightning bolts generating microwaves which produce short lived ball lightning of relatively small size and short lifetimes. The DP lights are different and perhaps have more in common with Hessdalen where objects "as big as a barn" can last for hours and have a radar signature without being visible. Clearly there's a lot of overlap but what creates the microwaves would seem to be different. I like the large atmospheric maser/soliton theory of course.
https://www.nature.com/articles/srep28263
1. YK gets too close to the GLO at the tent and suffers an electrical or microwave burn. YD could have been burnt also but his "burns" are also consistent with frostbite from spending too long up the cedar in severe windchill. YK's injuries force an immediate but orderly withdrawal to the cedar. There is good evidence that temperatures were raised above normal and the group may have prefered immediate withdrawal to collecting unnecessary clothing (most of the group had no frostbite even though they had no gloves or boots and the fire and the den clearly took some time to create).
2. YK and YD die first at the campfire. YK is in such pain that he bites the back of his hand off which is found in his mouth. That he was conscious just before death makes it difficult imo to argue that his massive leg burn was accidental from the campfire. The rescuers claim that the footsteps where from 8 or 9 people. Imo this points to YK being carried part of the way.
3. A two phase collapse of the snow den creates the fractures including RS. The first collapse pushes the group off their seats with NTB's head lying between LD and SZ all of them struggling under the snow. AK gets his head above the snow just in time for the second much heavier collapse. This snaps AK's neck and punches the first fall of snow along a line cracking two chests and one skull. The "punch" is softened by the first fall so that it crushes without bruising or breaking limbs. RS is at the periphery of the first fall and receives more direct contact with it which does result in bruising.
4. The remaining three rescue the ravine four plus RS. AK is dead but all the others are still alive. Clothing is taken from YD/YK to try and make the injured comfortable. LD dies shortly afterwards and some of her clothing is passed to SZ who tries to write in his notebook.
5. As the leader ID decides to brace the cold and remain with the injured but instructs ZK to get RS back to the shelter of the tent now that the GLO has gone (and perhaps return with more clothing).
6. RS and ZK both collapse on the return journey. They together with ID all exhibit facial "scratches". Note this is consistent with other ball lightning experiences the theory being that it is caused by microwaves.
7. The last to die in the ravine would have been NTB estimated by the pathologist at taking two hours. ID now suffering from hypothermia tries to return but also collapses. The returning three all lie within 330 meters of each other suggesting imo some "debiitating force".
8. At sunrise a group of crows find the bodies removing eyes/tongue etc shortly before further snowfall/wind drift buries the bodies.
You're right. I'm not really drawn to the light in the sky thing but I just felt like mentionining it. Can't discard it, primarily due to the witness accounts.
I also think the cause must be somehow related to the Soviet Union's government, because they undoubtedly obstructed the investigation and aftermath. Maybe their obstructiveness was just the way they operated about everything though.
The more I read the more convinced I am the hiker's injuries were inflicted by other human beings. Almost all of them had impact trauma - not just the ones in the snow den. Zina had a large "baton like" bruise on her stomach and Rustik had a strike to the head too. An avalanche could cause this, but that's all but been ruled out.
I think they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. I just don't know why seeing light phenomena would motivate you to shred your tent.
It also explains why the Soviet officials covered it up. The lights were probably military testing.
I also think there is enough evidence to consider the blunt force trauma being the result of hostility.
I have a feeling the tent was shredded after the group were dead.
Yudin postulated that Dyatlov chose that spot to challenge their mountaineering skills, which seems reasonable if the weather was amendable, but suicidal if the weather was already punishing them. Their state of dress (undress) also points to reasonably mild conditions when they camped. I think there are a some indications that there was a major shift in the weather in the night that contributed to the endgame.
Their tent was full of big holes, stove does not help much then. You can walk if you have hypothermia. Survival instict makes wonders for your performance.
But yeah, Nigel is right. They propably were feeling warm and okay, because they had undressed. Still...very, very limited space inside the tent. According to weather reports it was not horribly cold night.
Troitsk-Pecherski (123 miles north) Nyaksimvol (59 miles north-east) Ivdel (75 miles south)
7am -7.8C -6.9C -6.0C
1pm -10.3C -9.0C -5.6C
7pm -15.1C -13.8C -11.0C
1am(Feb 2) -18.1C -18.0C -14.6C
7am(Feb 2) -17.3C -28.4C -16.5C
If they were suffering from the cold then they would be wearing all the extra clothing :-
9 parka, 8 quilted jackets (vatnik), 1 fur jacket, 2 fur sleeveless vests, 4 shell pants, 1 cotton pants, 4 Scarf, 13 pairs of gloves (fur, cloth and leather), 7 pcs. boots (valenki), 2 pairs of slippers, 3 skating caps, 1 fur hat, 2 felt beret.
That they were not wearing the above, particularly the gloves and felt boots indicates that they were not suffering from hypothermia...
They used the backpacks with the skis to create a floor that insulated them from the ground. But they had to sleep with the contents of course. But a lot of that would be clothing. I don't think they undressed much, imo what they left the tent wearing was their sleepwear. They hadn't washed in days, probably better to stay dressed
It's worth remembering that at this latitude in winter they would have limited daylight hours say 8 hours per day so 16 hours of darkness. It's possible that they normally slept in shifts with the others outside by the fire. The last night was an exception and they probably didn't expect a good nights sleep, just catnap.
Someone has speculated that they didn't take their outer clothing because it was wet and perhaps frozen. Good point perhaps but it doesn't explain why they didn't grab their valenki (felt boots) and other clothing.
On the first day the men carried 40kg backpacks and the girls 30kg, they left 55kg of food at the base camp to ascend, they didn't carry firewood for the stove, normally it was just outside the camp, they left three hand axes behind in the tent which also indicates the rush. That the stove was found inside the tent indicates imo that they hadn't settled in for the night, it would make sense to leave it outside in the snow for sleeping.
But imo the temperature wasn't -25C, these people must have been outside for at least 1 hour maybe longer in their socks with no gloves, no face protection and yet there is very little frostbite recorded, most of them don't have any. With the reported high winds the effective/wind chill temperature would have been much lower, could have been -50C. You'd get frostbite in minutes... The lack of frostbite, hot spot, footprints that last for weeks, snow on tent as hard as wood, it's all pointing at unusually warm conditions that subsequently returned to normal (much colder).
How they did it with backpacks, is bit of a mystery. If everybody used their backpack as a pillow, then just about...but it was definitely claustrofobic inside the tent. Oxygen levels were propably suffering, expecially when the stove was on. Positive side is that when people pack themselves next to each other this tightly, they will heat up each other.
Just how they managed to undress and dress orderly inside so tight space is a mystery. It is not entirely impossible, i have done that in the army, but it is very slow process to dress up inside so tight space. Had this reality something to do with the fact they exited the tent undressed? Dressing up would have taken many minutes to do, and they somehow did not have minutes.
What buzzles me is the fact that the stove was not on that night. When i think how tightly next to each other they were sleeping, i kinda understand that, they did not need the stove that night, they heated up each other somewhat. Anyway, it was still cold.
Sleeping at -20C without a stove and without modern, high-tech sleeping bags and stuff can freak you out. It"s scary. It freaked me out once in the army pretty badly. During the hardest training period we were sleeping at -25C without sleeping bags and stove really did not help much. It"s scary when you lose the control of your mouth and can not speak anymore properly.
When we marched back to barracks i walked straight to the hot shower with my rifle and everything on, and got short punishment but i did not care. It was worth it. Never have shower felt so good in my life.
It somehow looks like they decided to try some kind of new experiment that night, trying to sleep without a stove by just getting packed very tightly, but it did not work very well. They were close to hypothermia, and then something extraordinary happened, or at least they imagened so.
Many of you propably have thought this case way more than me, i just try to fork around this a bit.
Dyatlov is above Helsinki, not the artic circle but getting there.
Blows that broke his chest did not touch his camera hanging on the top of the chest. This seems to indicate that those blows were very well aimed indeed. Somebody hit him with the backside of the rifle when he was on the ground. Did not hit the camera, which is weird. How camera can survive intact the force that crushes your chest? It swung on the side somehow?
There"s so many mysteries in this case it"s unbelievable. Guy had a pee, and then started to run for cover. Threat must have been dramatic. One single mansi with a rifle will not cause this kind of panic. Who knows. Guy having a pee yelled to others inside the tent that "here"s a man with a gun!". Could everybody panic because of that? Somehow does not sound convincing. It must have been something more dramatic.
Dyatlov pass is around 1400 kilometers from here, at the same global height. It is not very far north.
But do you think that the footsteps can be explained by the temperature of the snow being raised close to it's melt point and then refrozen?
@MB - being covered by snow until just before discovery is an explanation but of course an improbable one. Occam's Razor doesn't explain the hot spot, or the rescue team reporting that the snow on the tent was as hard as wood.
But there have been some questions as to how accurately the cuts on the tent were recorded (number, size, placement) since, at first, the volunteers were simply looking for the hikers and hoping to find them alive. I don't know whether that's a valid question, or whether the investigators can be trusted to have made accurate notes of everything.
Your theory of hypothermia makes sense at first glance, but it sounds like maybe you aren't familiar with the other pieces of information.
It seems that the only part of their behavior which makes no sense is leaving the tent. The rest of their behavior seems to be perfectly rational. There was a flashlight which looked like it had been left as a beacon to mark the way back to the tent. After the first two died (under the cedar tree) the others laid them out respectfully and donned pieces of their clothing to help fight the cold. (Thus some of them in the ravine were found wearing pieces of the clothing from the guys under the tree.) There was distinct evidence of a snow cave having been built, with evergreen branches for seats. None of this sounds like the behavior of people losing their ability to think carefully and attempt to survive. Even if it were some strange kind of temporary insanity that caused them to leave the tent, why not return to it to get supplies & gear as soon as their wits returned?
So we are left trying to figure out why intelligent, brave mountaineers decided they had a better chance of survival in the Siberian forest in February (without full winter clothing!) than in their tent. I agree with you, that people don't run out into the freezing night because of a weird sound. (Although--have you ever experienced infrasound? There are some sites online where you can hear/feel it if you have earphones. It's pretty crazy. I can see how it might drive someone batty after several hours. Only it doesn't explain why they didn't take sixty seconds longer to put on their shoes.)
Nigel has a good theory, which he explains in the thread below.
You'll have to read the thread to get upto speed, checkout the three heads photo.
"Came out relatively early (around 10am). Took the same Mansi sled trail. Till now we walk along a Mansi trail, which was crossed by a deer hunter not long ago. Yesterday we apparently came across his resting stop. Deer didn't go much further. The hunter didn't follow the beaten trail and we are now in his steps."
They travelled something like 6-8 miles per day.
Mansis with a gun were no more than 12-15 miles away from their last camp. Propably closer.
On a clear day you can see miles and miles on that kind of mountain area. Mansis propably had them on their view most of the time.
There has been quite a few criminal attacks on tents where tent was cut from the outside by the attacker. For me this looks like a some kind of outside attack, and then they escaped on wrong direction away from the base camp. Otherwise they would have cut the tent open without seeing the attacker, only based on sound, which is quite weird logically. IF the tent was cut from the inside, it was done based only on sound. If you think logically, there are no such sounds out there that make you do something that suicidal as destroying your tent on freezing cold arctic weather. I have been military trained on arctic where i live too, and you just do not destroy our tent like that based on some weird sound. Nobody is that stupid, and those people were intelligent scientists. They know the consequences of their every action exactly. I have slept on exactly same kind of conditions on tent during the military years, as a member of a same kind of group, and one suggestion that came to my mind is boring and simple, they experienced hypothermia inside the tent, i have experienced that once, and started to behave weirdly because of that. On hypothermia you want to undress. As far as i understand their stove was not on or there at all.
It"s lethally cold to sleep on wet clothes at -30C without heat source. Problem with this logic is why they were so stupid then? Was their stove there? Without working stove on -30C after a day hiking, jesus. They possibly went on hypothermia inside the tent.
Not trying to be annoying; just making sure I understand you.
mkantor@bauermedia.cz
IE- every so often somewhere in the world a cars brakes go out. Every so often the steering goes out. On very, very rare occasions the brakes and the steering go out near simultaneously for completely unrelated reasons. To the naked eye that seems so unlikely they there must be some connection or conspiracy, but thats not necessarily so. Its just the law of big numbers.
Maybe the helicopter pilots had their suspicions about radiation and took a detector with them?
Does he mean that he just couldn't find the time to write for the group? Or that he couldn't write while he was walking/skiing like in the pic of Zina? Or maybe he's just being intentionally irritating to the rest of the group, avoiding a responsibility he doesn't really like?
Or maybe it's something more serious and meaningful. I'm curious to hear other people's opinions and thoughts.
"I can't, although I tried."
Person Number of pictures on which the person is being fotographed
Kolevatov 5
Dyatlov 4
Kolmogorova 12
Doroschenko 6
Dubinina 10
Yuri Yudin 1
Opa 1
Krivonischenko 3
Zolotaryov 6
Thibeaux-Brignolle 6
Slobodin 2
The "Heinlein Razor" (or Hanlon) represents the claim about the likely role of human error in the causes of unpleasant events. It says, " Never attribute malice to what can be adequately explained by stupidity ." The principle is named after Robert A. Heinlein formulated this idea first in his "Logic of Empire" (1941). The idea that the world is governed by a far greater measure of stupidity and incompetence than by malice and malice has repeatedly sounded from the lips of great men like Goethe and Napoleon. But people are much easier to convince themselves with the idea of ??a conspiracy than to make them believe that the world is governed purely by incompetence.
However it is true that some ball lightning events move towards people and two eye witnesses of lights in the dpi area talk of the lights behaving as if they know they were being observed which is interesting but no more than that. The answer lies in the science of the future. If you stand under a tree and lightning kills you it's not due to it having evil intelligence....
Here I can see the face of a man. You have to zoom in to see it.
http://img5.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/manninderdunkel0avl1cki7s.png
Here is the original picture 09 of Zolotaryovs camera:
http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Zolotaryov-camera-10.jpg
The last thing Soviet government agents would do to hide a secret is to draw attention to the secret with an elaborate, inexplicable murder. 1000 times easier to put them on a train to Siberia where they would never be seen or heard from again, and anyone they knew too terrified to ask questions.
@Lightning - thanks i think that's a recent update. Interesting that they can last for over 4 hours and this opinion that they come towards you if you look at them....
Putting down that flashlight has to be explained- unless it died on them and it was intentionally dropped (and even that sounds reckless, you would hope to get a few flickers out of it after turning it off for a while in the cold). If it was left as a beacon, I have to think they had some other way to see.
It could be that some combination of Dyatlov, Kolmogorova, and Slobodin (and i dont think its a given they all set out together) headed back to the tent at moonrise when they could get their bearings, timing seems reasonable.
playing around with this link apparently there would have been approx a half moon that night. - https://www.timeanddate.com/moon/phases/russia/moscow?year=1959
So that moonlight on the snow on a clear night would suffice for visibility i think.
I just cant get passed those flashlights being left, particularly the second one. That was probably their single most important survival tool at that moment. Imo, they must have somehow had enough light to see by when they set down that second flashlight.
The more i consider the ravine injuries the more i realise the strangeness of them. Extensive fractures without bruising, or burst ear drums/lungs or broken limbs not even a collar bone, weird. Plus the asymmetry, SZ+LD chest fractures and nothing else, NTB skull fractures and nothing else. Imo it fits better with a localised "soft crushing impact" than barotrauma.
@MB - SZ's photos and the eye witness account from the ski party 50km south would seem to suggest a relatively clear night. That could have changed later on, the three heads photo does indicate a lot of horizontal snow - blizzard.
I don't think you'd abandon the tent because of hail, just prop up the tents's sides with ski poles and stuff to insulate yourself from the impacts. The investigation included mountain experts who would have spotted the signs i think. Also they climbed the cedar to monitor the tent area, like they were waiting on something there to go away. Good point about visibility but presumably they weren't in a blizzard/whiteout or no point in climbing the tree.
I would be terrified to be out of doors when that thing struck.
Thundersnow sometimes produces hail as well. Has that even been considered? Lightning might make people run for the woods, but large hail falling on an open plain certainly wood, and could explain some of the head injuries. A golf ball or larger chunk of hail can kill. Here's a link I found to of 200 skeletons discovered killed by a freak hail storm:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2333648/Mystery-Skeleton-Lake-solved-Scientists-reveal-bones-edges-Indian-lake-belonged-hundreds-9th-century-tribesmen-died-freak-hail-storm.html
The explosion only theory is less probable as it has to be quite close by.
I've considered before now the question "what if the roof of the den simply collapsed on them?" and i've discounted this theory because surely it must have resulted in broken limbs the lack of which is one of the primary facts to resolve in the ravine event. What could fracture a rib cage (three times in LD's case) and not break limbs?
But what if there was a partial collapse followed shortly by bigger one? I.e. the ravine had a depth of 4 meters, so assuming that the den is a metre high (or so, just big enough to sit inside). Then say a metre of snow falls in on them, although it would weigh approx a tonne because it's just above their heads it simply pushes them off their seats and fills in (packs) the gaps between them as they wrestle with it. Then the rest of the roof above falls in. This is two meters thick and possibly wider (2 tonnes or more?) and importantly has a metre of space below it in order to accelerate before impact. This hits them like a sledgehammer but the limbs are protected by the snow around them resulting only in crushing injuries to the head and chest.
This would be a good explanation for SZ, LD and NTB, for AK i'd tweak the theory that he managed to get his head above the first fall before the second snapped his neck.
As to why the roof fell in? SZ was an experienced builder of snow dens of course so it's unlikely that it was built incorrectly. But there are several indications that the temperature of the snow was being raised nearer to it's melt point. It seems plausible that this weakened the structure of the snow above them. N.B. NTB was found with his jacket unzipped and his gloves in a pocket.
A problem with the military theory is that the ravine injuries seem to rule out the involvement of high explosive as blast lung is the most common HE injury in survivors (due to the supersonic wave) and the autopsies didn't report any. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blast_injury
Another theories like infrasound only explains why they ran out of tent but not the injuries and ignores the eyewitness acounts and photos. Same with the avalanche theory and the others.
Could be a millitary test, but unlikely. So two possibilites- millitary test or BL.
1. there have been several winter expeditions to the DP since the tragedy and they all report that it is impossible to replicate the persistence of the footsteps, that is they cannot make them last for more than 24/48 hours before the wind blows them away. The original footsteps lasted for 4 weeks before being found. One theory to explain this is that the snow was much less cold on that night and much closer to it's melt point. This together with subsequent refreezing explains how they became harder. It also fits in with the hot spot, the hardness of the snow on the tent and the signs of the ravine snow covering the bodies having softened and refrozen. I'm heartened that last video i posted about Hessdalen mentioned that with one of the visible events that lasted for minutes, an object at the same location had been transmitting at radar frequencies for over four hours. So this fits well with the microwave theory, that the whole area is bathed in microwave radiation across many frequencies and this wrt the dpi has the effect of raising the temperature of the snow closer to it's melt point. It might explain why although most of them didn't have footwear there is little sign of frostbite (save for the 2 yuris and that doesn't fit with it being frostbite imo).
2. Apparently in radio terms the human body acts as a lossy dipole with a resonant frequency that varies between vhf and uhf depending on size and gender.
So it's possible that this radiation could have an effect on ID's posture at death, i'd guess at electrical rather than heat energy as the muscles have to maintain the pose until the body freezes and there no sign of body heat melting the snow as in the case of RS.
Or he could just have died whilst trying to adjust his clothing of course
Don't miss the end from 39.00, nice "string of pearls" and what seems to be the current scientific knowledge.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKlwlYiXuic
As to their cause lets not forget that our science cannot currently explain them.
So we're in the domain of conjecture.
Empirically it's my guess is that any atmospheric phenomena that creates an electron avalanche can result in ball lightning - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron_avalanche , once you have the ionisation then the effects follow from it.
There is clearly a connection with the frequency of witnessed accounts with locality e.g. Hessdalen and Dyatlov so some ground effect might be involved, possibly metal ore, e.g. Hessdalen is a very ore rich area. But there is conjecture of some other phenomena - a geo motor creating earthquake lights etc. Lets not forget Tunguska is impossible to explain with a bolide only theory.
As to your question wrt cloudless night/no storm don't forget we're talking about macro atmospheric events here, people have been killed by lightning on a sunny day with hardly a cloud in the sky "a bolt out of the blue" - http://www.iflscience.com/environment/world-record-longest-ever-lightning-bolt-shocks-scientists/ n.b. this the longest currently recorded, nature has probably exceeded this by an order of magnitude.
But wrt the DPI, i think the evidence is strong that a BL event (as photographed by SZ and reported by another ski party) injured the two Yuris forcing the group to withdraw to the forest in the expectation of returning quickly. This didn't happen and subsequently the two Yuris die of their injuries. The ravine deaths are caused either by ball lightning exploding or a powerful lightning bolt hitting the stream and creating an explosion in the snowbank. The deaths of the remaining three are due to cold with the microwave field debilitating them and bringing them to their knees as they try and ascend into it (they expire within 330 meters of each other with facial scratches, signs of vomiting).
Several reports on this webpage.
N.B. the word "microwave" occurs 27 times.
My favourite is the Handel Maser-Soliton theory. My theory (and perhaps of others i don't know) is that (wrt the dpi) the high winds reproduced horizontally what happens vertically in thunderstorms, i.e. creating seperation of charge between the clouds and the ground. But instead of this discharging as lightning the wind vortices move this ionisation in effect reproducing a magnetron generating microwaves which bounce between the earth and the sky as in a waveguide. These waves interfere with each other and by a process similar to aquatic rogue waves a soliton forms that is persistent.
But the answer lies in the future.
Good point about the burnt clothes, but that might be answered by the human bodies acting as aerials with a resonant frequency creating very localised heat on and within the body.
I wouldn't expect the bamboo pole to be scorched the internal moisture just has to expand and it will split.
Anyway IF it was the case why the damp fabrics of the clothes and the leather of the boots- which both retain moisture thus making them heat fast when exposed to microwaves -left inside the tent were intact ? Also in reference to the broken bamboo pole , it did not display any scorched patch . Unlike the burnt clothes found on some of the hikers BTW. But it could have been electrical burns from lightning as well sustained under the treeline .
What if their injuries were not electrical burns but microwave burns? - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_burn
This explains how they were injured in the tent without any burning elsewhere. The tent fabric would perhaps have got hot but not enough to discolour as it would take longer to heat up being colder and with a covering of snow, the damp cavities within the bamboo pole heated quickly and split it.
Perhaps the radiation was only intense at one end of the tent as the BL passed near, just affecting the pole and two occupants who in effect shielded the others.
Now you have your reason for cutting the tent open and getting everyone out as fast as possible.
@Kac - you copy and paste the image's url and when you click submit the website converts it into a link that people can click on.
E.g. - http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Zolotaryov-camera-12.jpg
Second is there a way to post two pictures? There are 2 pictures on cora hull website of an angled looking object and i noticed how very similiar they look to the black knight satellite. Thank u
@mkk - i've found your almanac look at - http://fond-dyatlov.livejournal.com/
in google translate.
Apparently the first print run was sold out...
1. Flashlight at tent, switch in OFF position, working.
2. Flashlight some way down the slope, switch in ON position, not working.
https://sites.google.com/site/hibinaud/ is exactly what I was looking for, but I am also dependent on Google Translate. It seems that Chrome's built in translation option does not return the same results as Google's manual translate tool: https://translate.google.com
For Example:
that 100 meters below the tent was found a flashlight turned on with battery burned that belonged to someone who died of the participants group.
Becomes:
that about 100 meters below the tent was found an electric flashlight in the switched on state with a burnt out battery belonging to one of the participants of the deceased group.
which I prefer, because it is less ambiguous.
1.left on the tent switched off.
2. the other left down the slope switched on with a drained battery.
N.B. There seems to be some difference of opinion from members of the rescue party as to (2) distance from the tent 100 or 400 meters.
Imo (1) was the toilet flashlight that they didn't have time to collect. and (2) was deliberately placed as a beacon for the return to the tent.
As you say it's an important pivotal point, imo the facts point to that they had to flee the tent immediately but from a threat that didn't pursue them down the slope and that they expected to go away enabling their return, hence the beacon.
-If it was turned on when found, it was obviously left as a beacon. No other reason to leave a perfectly good flashlight in the dead of night.
-If it was turned off, you're probably right, it was left there in case anyone needed to leave the tent in the night. The only alternative would be that it was placed there turned off out of hand as they fled the tent, which is crazy.
-Now if it WAS turned off, why didnt anybody think to pick it up knowing that 'thats where we keep the flashlight' as they are leaving the tent. That gives you an important indication of their state of mind, quite aside from abandoning their boots and clothes so abruptly. Just grabbing that flashlight would be a high priority in the dead of night, frightened by something. But nobody did. Either they fled in such a panic (which the tracks dont support) that they didnt have 2 seconds to grab a critical source of light, or *something about the tent made it impossible or unsafe*. That would perhaps support the fire/smoke filled tent theory.
-Now if we suppose the flashlight was left on, it was surely placed there and left intentionally. If someone was willing to do that, why werent they willing to reach in the tent and grab whatever gear was at hand? You have a flashlight, there are gaping holes in the tent, you stop to put the flashlight on top of the tent (obviously with the knowledge youre about to leave the tent vicinity), but you dont think to grab a blanket or valenki or just some random stuff that would be in arms reach? You have the presence of mind and critical seconds to place a flashlight, but not to do anything else.
Doesnt resolve much, but whether that flashlight was on or off sends your down two different theory paths I think.
Playing with google translate i get multiple versions of "выгоревшей," as burnt out or faded. So i'll assume they mean a discharged battery unless any Russian speakers tell me otherwise.
Perhaps it was for trips to the toilet in the night.
The first rule of trekking is that if you need to go to the toilet "for a dump" then you take a shovel to dig a hole and put some decent distance between you and the campsite.
So if you want to do this in the middle of the night when everyone is asleep then rather than have people searching for a flashlight that may have been placed anywhere by the last person to use it, it is kept at the agreed place preferably just outside the entrance so that people are less disturbed when you turn it on.
That's why it was found on top of 10cm of snow, as people used it it was placed back on top of the snow.
Apparently all seven of the felt boots (valenki) were found placed along the side of the tent that didn't suffer the slits. It makes sense that as part of the same "toilet procedure" they would keep these boots at the bottom of their designated "bed" (i'm assuming that they slept tranversely and all in the same direction
The fact that these felt boots organised down the side of the tent were left behind (with this torch) really does indicate the speed at which they abandoned the tent. You would only need a couple of seconds to reach down and pick them up.
Also wrt my last post does anyone speak Russian? I'd love a more detailed translation of "burned battery", burnt or discharged? Microwaves?
There's a distinct feel of uncertainty about the whole thing. Authorities seemed confused and edgy, uncertain which information to suppress and which to allow. If they were determined to cover it up completely, they would have. They would have gotten in there before the amateur rescue crews arrived, wiped it clean, and invented a plausible story for the whole thing. At the very least, they would have prepared a reasonable explanation for the deaths and then stuck to it.
In mystery novels, the plot is often made more circuitous and involved because innocent characters are hiding something and inadvertently thwart the efforts of the detectives. Weirdly, the government efforts at concealment have a similar feel about them. With a bit of tongue-in-cheek, I'm attributing it to the habitual MO communist authorities, but it may be something much more interesting.
through google translate gives :-
"in addition, that 100 meters below the tent was found a flashlight turned on with battery burned that belonged to someone who died of the participants group. "
Hence the view that it was left at that position to assist the groups return.
1. Ivanov was told to desist from investigating fireballs and to remove all evidence for them from his report.
2. If the photos attributed to SZ are genuine then there MUST be more, YK's camera was on a tripod.
It could be an "innocent" coverup, i.e. middle ranking officers assuming that the fireballs were man made and playing safe with their jobs.
Or otherwise.
An imaginary conversation high up in government some time afterward:
"Why did you go to so much trouble to try to cover it up?"
"Well, if you'd done it, wouldn't you want it covered up?"
"But no one did it--it was just lightning!"
"How was I to know that? I was just doing my job!"
http://dyatlovpass.com/tent
On the top of the tent under 5-10 cm of snow lay Dyatlov's flashlight (made in China). Boris Slobtzov picked it up and turned it on - the flashlight was in working condition.
Second flashlight was found switched off and battery discharged 400m down the slope.
So that leaves only the lack of footprints, and the fact that the hikers built a fire where it would reveal their location, as arguments against human attacker(s). The additional footprints might have been missed, if they were only near the tent, and the attackers skied in the hikers' tracks. Perhaps the reason for the the climbing of the cedar tree was to keep a lookout and alert the others if the attackers were coming. The attackers may have slept in the tent and cut their way out in the morning, simply because it was easier than going through the door. And there are many other attack scenarios that would result in the tent being cut from the inside. Imagination runs wild.
I think that suggests they intentionally split the matches, and very likely at the cedar tree. The Kolevatov group continued down the slope and fell into a ravine. Slobodin perhaps went back to the tent to gather supplies (inadvertently carrying off the matches) he falls, hits his head, and freezes.
Doroshenko and Krivonischenko freeze to death, Kolmogorova and Dubinina split the clothing of the dead and try to make for the tent, dying in route.
I'm surprised that with the Hessdalen lights, given they have been so repeatable that they're not sending up drones with cameras and sensors, seems an obvious step. Unless high winds are a common associated factor of course...
Personally i'd like to know the microwave profile as you get close to these lights.
Then it all went wrong and they ordered Ivanov to remove fireballs from his report.
But i think the danger with the DPI lights is due to it's composition which suggests differences with Hessdalen.
Interesting section at the beginning of this video about treetops - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0tbOLtv_mI
Less interesting afterwards.
What I would give to obtain those rolls...
very similar write-up: http://www.our-russia.com/22072016234636/title-not-yet
Anyone have information whether this proposed "almanac" has been published?
Wrt the intoxication theory they demonstrate quite logical ordered behaviour, built a fire and a den, laid out the two Yuris side by side showing respect, SZ found trying to write in his notebook.
From wikipedia :-
12-year-old Yury Kuntsevich, who would later become head of the Yekaterinburg-based Dyatlov Foundation (see below), attended five of the hikers' funerals, and recalls their skin had a "deep brown tan".[2]
Another group of hikers (about 50 kilometers south of the incident) reported that they saw strange orange spheres in the night sky to the north on the night of the incident.[2] Similar spheres were observed in Ivdel and adjacent areas continually during the period from February to March 1959, by various independent witnesses (including the meteorology service and the military).[2]
So the coffins were not closed.
N.B. the eye witness accounts of the lights include explosions.
My understanding of the pilot's statement was that he thought he saw two bodies lying outside the tent before it was found. Not that it was surrounded by soldiers, can you point to were this is stated?
The boot cover could have been mislaid by the rescue group or mansi hunters that kept some kit when they returned from service. It's not a strong piece of evidence.
Another interesting theory which was not explored thoroughly : Food intoxication due to contamination by hallucinogenic ergot or some other substance. I don't know if any test was performed on the food they had before the events break up ... It would very much explain their erratic behaviour in the night .
and everybody would be allowed to see the body and pay respect, even in the USSR.
.In this case what did we see instead ? the 1st prosecutor was decommissioned days later ( Forget about Ivanov's declaration he was the servant of the System and would write exactly what he is told ) , 2 presidents found the case strange enough to closely follow the case, the bodies were delivered in sealed metal coffins with no permission to open them ,an officer comes to the funeral of Dubinina and tells a story about a GLO which did not hurt anyone ...
And when you add to all these points the fact that a pilot saw from his plane ( and reported it ) the tent surrounded by soldiers days before the rescuer party ( who BTW found a boot cover , an item used only by soldiers) among the items in the tent and the fact that soldiers came with a Geiger device to test radioactivity on the corpses one must admit the Soviet authorities knew - at least partially- beforehand what happened to the hikers.
And what happened could very much be something more than a casual accident due to natural meteorological phenomena such as lightning or GLO strike(s) otherwise all the aforementioned measures taken by the the Soviet authorities would not have been necessary....
1- No scorched fabric in the tent so how come 2 hikers were badly burned by GLO and the tent did not display even one mm2 of burned fabric ?
Perhaps they were burnt outside the tent then? I don't see how this is argues againt the GLO theory, just a detail.
2- The fact they left the tent in good order : if a GLO turns into a ''roller'' and heads to your tent at the speed of 5-6 m/s , or even explodes few meters away, well, you won't leave your tent -barefoot !- in good order... But again, Dyatlov left his jacket and torch behind, next to the tent which doesn't plead much for the '' organized temporary retreat '' ...
Perhaps there weren't any rollers. The GLO theory doesn't depend on them, maybe there were two aerial objects an hour or so apart.
3- GLOs , according to many testimonies, are limited phenomena in time (few sec to few min max) and number ( usually one GLO per observation) Most of the encounters with GLOs leave the witnesses unharmed even if in some few cases one witness is burned or hurt, It is extremely unlikely a GLO 'strikes'' the tent or next to it burning 2 hikers , another GLO or lightning pursue the hikers to the cedar tree and burn its apex then again explodes in the den, thus generating the horrible lesions of Thibeaux ,Zolotaryov and Dubinina . If this incident was due to orbs , then one must assume these orbs or GLOs were not natural phenomena striking or moving randomly but that some malevolent intelligence was behind these '' surgical targeted strikes''
This is a good point, the ability of GLOs to target people is well documented and can only be properly explained in the future when there is a proper scientific explanation for them (not currently). I would guess at the metal content of mammals together with their electric nervous system interfering with the "microwave standing wave system" such that they act as attractions. But just my guess, until science can answer what these objects are then we're left with only the empirical fact that GLOs do exhibit targeting behaviour.
4- As for what the officer confided to the victim's parents it could very much be a story to divert their suspiscions from a KGB ''operation'' . I lived once in a country run by a foreign intelligence service and I know what I am talking about : in order to keep people away of their dirty deeds and divert their attention elsewhere , they would make up now and then a new bogus '' story '' a scandal, such as : singers or celebrities caught practicing group sex , a new satanist sect in the country etc and so on .... the story of the officer could very much be a fairy tale ....
I refer you to my previous post, you have to explain why they were afraid to remain at the tent but unafraid to light a fire 1500 meres away.
5- The fact President Khrutchev is said to have personally followed the inquiry
So did Boris Yeltsin. I don't see how this is against the GLO theory?
6- the 1st chief prosecutor was decommissioned days after he opened the inquiry if they were struck by lightning or ''normal'' GLO s so why all this paranoid secrecy ...
Not relevant to the GLO theory imo.
Imo Soviet authorities know much more than what they are willing to say . They are at least partially responsible to what happened to the hikers. The extent of their responsibility is yet to be defined . We will never know what really happened because some of the clues are still kept secret , some others were purposely flawed . I heard Keith Mcloskey on Youtube and he spoke a lot about the culture of secrecy in USSR . Some reminiscence is still lingering in Russian Federation until now....
For sure there was a culture of secrecy, but not relevant to the GLO/not GLO question imo.
This seems to rule out many types of threat, basically from any intelligence be it human or non human (yetis/aliens etc).
This single fact very strongly suggests some form of natural threat such as the one in SZ's photographs - presumed to be ball lightning. This was the conclusion of Ivanov the head of the investigation and the opinion of the local mansi people.
Well you don't need a second camera to make contact with US spies, his mission was to observe special phenomena in the sky and photograph it. The photos suggest that is what he did.
Almost certainly. The fact that Yudin did not know about SZ's camera (or it's purpose) suggests that only some members knew. I would guess at SZ, ID, AK and YK.
A more interesting question is why the secrecy? Why deceive other members of the group?
1)''working in Chelyabinsk - 40 a secret nuclear facility''
2)''His body will wear clothes that have traces of radioactivity that some trace to this particular event ''
I find this very odd. The background stories from some members are very sucpecious leading up to the Kholat events. It makes me think that some members knew what this expedition would mean but did not expect the particular outcome of it. ''Nikolai promised his mother that this would be his last hiking trip''
Apparently the KGB archives for this period are kept locked for some time to come (2030?) but in the future could become public domain. So there might be an answer one day.
It's almost certain that photos or even complete camera rolls were hidden from the report. Ivanov said that material was removed and expressed his guilt at not giving relatives closure. What could this material be other than photos? If SZ's are genuine then there have to be more, YK's camera was on a tripod. They cut several slits to observe something. It's a no brainer imo.
I believe this is a story that will never be solved but will always be talked about for that exact reason.
A question of my own: All the camera's were found except for the one which could've captured the very last moments of the crew. It is still not found to this day. Any update on this?
In a similar vein, has anyone noticed that the two Yuris seem to suffer the worst frostbite even though they die first?
My guess is that the frostbite is misdiagnosed and is blackening from burning.
It seems reasonable that they might have left expecting to return before too long. They were Russians; they were used to the cold. It wouldn't have had to be all the way up to 0C / 32F in order for them to be okay with less-than-compete wintertime-wear for a half hour or so.
The comment by Sonnet Fitzgerald (second response on this page
https://www.quora.com/How-long-can-someone-survive-in-0%C2%BA-celsius-I-read-somewhere-that-we-would-freeze-to-death-in-matter-of-ten-minutes-or-so-if-naked-Is-this-true ) is a good example of how many people in northern climates view cold weather.
Pkghoshalta@hotmail.com
Cheers
Yes that's my theory.
But it might not have been so cold at the tent, if the microwave theory to explain ball lightning is correct then a large area could be warmed up (perhaps to say to +1C). The hot spot would have to be warmer to soften the snow of course. The snow found on the tent was peculiarly hard, the first members of the rescue party to arrive damaged the tent by having to use a ice pick to break through it. It is if it had been melted before refreezing. Ditto the ravine snow on top of the den, it had a similar composition like it had experienced heat.
Imo , they underestimated the threat and thought it won't last much and that's why they left a switched- on Chinese torch on the snow maybe as a ''beacon'' to help them in their way back so : 1- they thought they will recover the torch before the batteries are empty 2- They thought they are going to need it to come back to the tent while still in the dark . In other words they did not expect to spend the night out of the tent. But the'' threat'' persisted and kept them from going back to the tent and may have pursued them to the cedar and/or the den.
Just guessing but you haven't seen the "three heads" photo yet? - http://dyatlovpass.com/controversy#zolotaryovcamera
The BL theory is that this is a photo of a much bigger orb and the "pop" you experienced was much more powerful with fatal consequences at the ravine.
I keep thinking about the hikers and what I've read about their behavior on previous hikes.
Lyuda had been shot in the leg and carried out on a stretcher--without losing her cool or her sense of humor.
Dyatlov had been in charge of a group when they were caught in a stampede of wild horses. He directed them to huddle together and stand perfectly still as the horses rushed toward them. Imagine the presence of mind he must have had, and the strength of character to get everyone else to do what would have felt so contrary to natural inclination! The horses, of course swerved around them and they were safe.
Doroshenko had attacked a bear with a geological hammer. His fellow hikers followed suit and they drove the bear away. Good grief!
Whatever it was, I have a hard time imagining this group fleeing the tent in mindless terror. There must have been some urgent, rational, reason that they chose a Siberian winter night over the confines of their tent. And chose to leave without proper clothing & supplies.
@Rol88 - i'd agree and it also explains why Ivanov was overruled about the fireballs.
Incidentally, my grandmother had an encounter with ball lightning when she was younger. No one was hurt.
Dyatlov's position, with his arms raised to his chest, looks quite similar to the "pugilistic stance" (boxer position) which occurs because of muscles tightening and shortening in contact with very high heat--as in a fire. It can happen even if the heat occurs after the person is dead. Curious, since evidence seems to point toward his dying of hypothermia & I haven't heard of any burns on him.
Also, there was mention of a surprising number of dead ptarmigans found by the search crews. I think this fact should be addressed by any serious theories. (Even if the explanation is just that they died later--why?)
Also, I remember reading (I believe in Zina's diary?) that the group members argued one evening about whose turn it was to patch up the tent. Lyuda got angry and went off by herself, and so didn't participate in their little celebration of Doroshenko's birthday. But just now I couldn't find where I'd read that. Anyone remember? I feel like there was something said about stuffing the holes of the tent with clothing to keep out the drafts.
One torch/lantern was placed on the tent presumably mislaid the other was found halfway down left turned on. It's very difficult to lose an illuminated torch in total darkness! A very high probability that it was left there to assist the return.
The treeline provided shelter, the means of a fire, snowbanks for caves/dens, branches to build into seats. And importantly a position to monitor the tent area. It was a sensible decision, I don't see the advantage in heading for the base camp.
They would have been cold and wet that night. Tough kids.
I'm not keen on the brawling theory but personal choice i guess, we'll never know for sure.
Speaking of the tent : How do you explain they found the jacket of I. Dyatlov tucked in a hole of the tent ? A pitiful attempt to close the hole and keep some warmth in the tent ?
They also found 2 Chinese made lanterns on the slope on the mountain. Again doesn't make sense to leave them behind . The ''Event'' in the tent happened around 9 pm. It was pitch black outside ,they could never recover the lanterns before dawn when they would be useless to them.. They found lots of items in the pockets of the victims . Zolotaryov kept his camera and his note pad , so why would they leave the lanterns behind on the snow ??? :
As for the base camp : There was food , spare skis and Rustem's mandolin yes , but above all there was SHELTER from a freezing -28* c night but for some reason they did not want to or could not make it there... imo obviously because the whole expedition had a secret task ie to study strange phenomena ( which nature is subject to debate lets keep it for other posts) in the area. ID and for sure Comrade Zolotaryov would certainly not allow the rest of the group to leave the area and stop observing what was going on around the tent, even at the price of their lives ...
Imo it explains why they pitched the tent on the slope of Kholyat and not in the forest with no protection from the winds and no firewood . The last night under the tent must have been pretty cold...
This also may explain why the situation degenerated to a brawl later... ID died with his fists raised on his torso ...maybe he was still shouting swears and threats with Rustem until the last minute of his short life...
"The 2 Yuris died of hypethermia their lesions were quite superficial of course YD had his hair burnt and his fingers and toes frostbitten but not to the point these lesions were life threatening. "
YK had a massive burn on his lower leg and foot 30cm in length that had charred the skin to the extent exposing tissue underneath. He had bit both hands, presumably to try and deal with the pain, one of them so hard that skin was found in his mouth.
Therefore (i assert) he was concious after the burn and so it is reasonable to suppose he was concious when he received it? Given the extent of this burn it is hard to attribute it to being accidental. Also YD had burns and it is imo difficult to explain them both as accidents from the fire, torture maybe but accidents no.
This burn is a copycat injury for the one received by the lady in the ball-lightning link below. Electrical discharge is a good explanation for this injury, possibly the best one.
Also the skin was found in his mouth which suggests that he bit his hand shortly before dying, this seems strange behaviour for death from hypothermia, shouldn't he be losing feeling in his hands by this time?
The base camp was out of sight around the mountain and only contained food, spare skis and a mandolin. It was of little use to them in surviving the night. They went to the cedar because they could see it from the tent, from it's top half they could observe the tent area. This imo strongly indicates that they wanted to return once the threat had receded and this tells us a lot about the threat that seems to rule out torture as a cause of YK/YD's burns. They also left a torch on halfway down the slope, imo to assist their return.
"Maybe one GLO got into that tent and scared the hell out of them to the point they slit their tent open and left it in a hurry."
Or maybe one got in the tent and electrocuted YK and YD and blew the tent open as in the swiss case...
YK and to some extent YD had horrific lesions, the ravine four had barotrauma style injuries or as a result of mechanical impact (e.g. the side wall of the den pushed on them with great force.
"If we are going to put it all on the account of the GLO, then one needs to assume the hikers have been subjected to several GLOs pursuing them everywhere they go."
We'll never know, but it is possible that it was just the one GLO, which stayed at the tent for some time preventing them from returning but then converted into a roller, fell into the ravine upstream of the den and followed it downstream smashing through the den on it's journey. Burnt treetops are a common sign of lightning strikes and could be irrelevant to the dpi. Lightning is an alternative theory for the ravine event, the frozen stream possibly providing the best earth in the vicinity.
Happy Easter.
Based on the injury profile it seems that only ID and RS hit anything/anyone with their fists.
Another curiosity are the amount of scratches and abrasions on the faces of ZK, RS and ID.
There is evidence that this is a feature of electro magnetic phenomena like ball lightning.
As for the radiotransmitter Dyatlov was taking it on hikes but that time I think Dyatlov was asked by KGB which infiltrated the group with Zolotaryov not to take the radiotransmitter . Maybe they wanted to keep the mission top secret and didn't want any information leak on the - air.
For the record 330 meters apart.
ZK didn't have bruises on her hands, they are described as abrasions. She also has a wound on the back of her hand. This fits with my theory that the returning 3 were the last able bodied group and had rapidly dug the ravine 4 out of the snow (with their bare hands) which had buried them in "the ravine event". N.B. most of the marks on the groups faces are described as abrasions not bruises.... As for RS and ID having bruises on their hands, maybe there was a brawl, after the 2 Yuris died people would be upset with previous decisions and the den is a sign that the group split into two. But i think "the bruising consistent with fighting" theory is just a distraction. E.g. ZK's bruise at the waist is almost certainly from dragging the makeshift sled. Both RS (concussion) and ID (hypothermia) probably died highly confused which means injuries from stumbling/falling/hitting hands on trees and rocks can't be ruled out and the fatal injuries have little to do with fighting...
Don't see the relevance of leaving a radiotransmitter behind.
Rol88 - yes, imo they deliberately camped there to photograph the "mansi's golden orbs" and SZ was equipped with a camera specially for this. So it could have been a KGB sanctioned mission.
YD lost the tip of his nose presumbly to predation. The predation could be explained by crows being quickly defeated by snowfall with no larger predators in the vicinity immediately afterwards.
Imo the most fascinating fact is that ZK, RS and ID all give up within say 250m of each other. Could be coincidence or they were entering a zone that was debilitating and weakening them.
But not bombing - why light a fire? No bomb craters/fragments?
Other devices could be a better theory imo, e.g. parachute mines and flares, with the evidence being carried away in the strong winds could be a fit.
But these options would require a coverup which doesn't fit with the evidence, the rescue party included fellow students who presumably would have by now spilled the beans if they had seen anything, the KGB rounded up Mansi leaders and the interrogation included torture until they found the first bodies. And "unknown compelling force" isn't much of a cover story.
A much better theory is a natural aerial object that can burn and explode and fits with the local knowledge.
Incidentally in the late fifties it was the Russians that had a lead on the Americans (Sputnik 1957, First man in space 1961). This was mainly because their atomic bomb technology was cruder and hence heavier and so their ballistic missiles had to be more powerful.
It was the Russian lead in rocket technology that forced Kennedy to commit to putting a man on the moon by the end of the decade.
the Soviets were starting to realise it was getting harder to close the gap with the US and they started exploring new alternatives such as the paranormal ( telekinesis , telepathy) etc...
Has Mr Genovese estimated what this portal opening device would weigh? How many car batteries do you need to open a portal to another dimension?
More seriously i would agree that SZ and probably AK were KGB. I've a suspicion that there was a plan to investigate the "golden orbs" either formed before they set off or along the journey.
The retreat path to the cedar was on the north side which would survive better (in the sun) than the approach path on the south side.
Can't see a problem with superimposed footprints?
The phenomena is also believed to be responsible for crop circles, a good video is here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0YuPj-516M
It's my conjecture that a more powerful form of this results in cattle and even human mutilation. E.g. google "human mutilation brazil".
With this scenario they left the tent to get closer to the orb in relatively mild temperatures (lets say +1C). As highly qualified university level technicians with radio and nuclear backgrounds they would have been fascinated with the object and quite curious. ID put his torch on the snow on the tent whilst he adjusted his clothing perhaps. Then two of the party suffered electrocution burns and they elected to retire to the forest and light a fire. There was no panic, just realisation of the potential danger in staying near to the tent with this orb just outside it and that's what prevented them from returning. So they calmly walked down the mountain side by side assisting YD and YK who might have been limping.
The reason that they slit the tent rather than using the opening could be the location of the orb or even St Elmos fire perhaps. The tent was on a slope with the entrance at the high point which would be where you'd expect the discharge.
Then at the cedar they experience the real cold temperature and some of the group led by SZ decide a snow cave/den is the best option.
Then the same orb or another one or a lightning bolt creates an explosion near the den that throws the den and it's occupants (but not the seats) several meters along the ravine with barotrauma style injuries.
So, Why did they got panic in the tent ?
I imagine that in your explaining
-If they were in those crisis , they were rolling in the hill, keeping their body cold on snow
or run away from tent site before they were roasted.
but they kept calm out of tent. unlike in tent.
which mean no threat from the object.
In other idea, I assumed military helicopter.
(they were warned to leave the site)
but there were some traces the assumption couldn't 'explain or fit' in the incident.
there were no traces. your assumption was away from evidences
Your assumption is explaining it weirdly
not sure i understand (1). I'm not saying they were too warm, just that around the tent it was significantly warmer than -20C.
not sure i understand (2) either.
I don't know anything about a burnt trace on the cedar tree?
Yes i'm trying to fit the facts to the ball lightning theory and creatively so.
Happy to hear other peoples explanations.
When you match all puzzle pieces ,
do you match all puzzle pieces into your imagination ?
First,Match all pieces in order
Later, judge your imagination was right !
It seems you are making up all remains into Ball Lightning .
Then, you would get weird course..
1. the air in the tent would have been warm due to microwave heating.
->
If they were too warm in the tent to escape urgently , Why didn't they escape urgently around the tent ?
2. if YK was too brave and went outside and put his hand(s) too near the orb (perhaps to photograph it's structure) then this would explain his burns (electrocution) and why they walked down the hill side by side (he was limping and needed assistance) and why they knew they couldn't return.
->
It would be more rational
that there was burnt trace on cedar tree
and YK died under cedar tree
and YK was attacked there .
1. the air in the tent would have been warm due to microwave heating.
2. if YK was too brave and went outside and put his hand(s) too near the orb (perhaps to photograph it's structure) then this would explain his burns (electrocution) and why they walked down the hill side by side (he was limping and needed assistance) and why they knew they couldn't return.
Also wrt to SZ's photographs clearly showing an aerial object and the complete lack of any similar photos from the other cameras (except perhaps one) then this would support Ivanov's statement that material was removed from the report.
Nigel, Details Left Out /
The force had 2 character
those would make them confused .
1- Very big force
As they urgently escaped the tent without survival stuffs in terrible whether.
2 - Unknown force
After they escaped urgently, they tried to calm down.
Which mean the force did not attack them instantly, and I guess the hikers won't know exactly what that was
So, that did not give them panic anymore. ( unlike "in the tent" )
but at least, they got awareness - that has immense force.
As everything 9 hikes could do is to escape from the site. It was windy day at less -25'C.
(Though They soon could know terrible whether .. Everything they could do was the way)
--------------------------------------------------------------
I never see they tried "come back ".
They were very afraid of the force around the tent.
And there are clues they tried to hide themselves.
1. Fire behind Cedar tree.
it was made at tree opposite site from the tent.
2.Broken Cedar tree
it was not used for fire, but empty space faced tent.
it must be harder working to climb tree to Around 5M in the cold. . . than somewhat approach the tent.
So, they were very cautious ..
there are many mentions , assumptions
"they tried to come back to tent"
but I don't agree it very much.
the tent was built on hill
Nothing there for the hikers to hide !!
I bet "they tried just to pick up survival stuffs - wears, boots, ,
Expert - i look forward to it
admin - could i request an update to the Ball Lightning section under Theories?
Something like :-
"The "three heads" photo below would fit the ball lightning theory very well. The "heads" are curves in the base of the tent fabric slit, the "hair" is the weave of the canvas with the strong light penetrating through the fabric also. The horizontal streaks are individual snowflakes or graupnel particles passing at high wind speeds across the view within the shutter speed, the repeated modulation of brightness due to the rotation and reflection of the light source".
But no chest bruises to explain the fractures. The photo of LD in the morgue shows the right side of her chest, there are two fracture lines under the skin in that photo.
Expert - i'll pass on biting my tongue thanks :@D. I can't see how biting it (or lack of) affects post mortem predation? BL rollers demonstrate the mechanical force required to equal being hit by a car (and even being hit by a tank!)
Details Left Out - bruising, the autopsy recorded several bruises on the ravine four but none at the places they would be expected to explain impact from say a blunt object. The pathologist specifically stating "like the shockwave from a bomb".
Yes the BL theory requires two events some time apart as it takes time to build the den.
It's possible that YD/YK received their burns at the tent (electrocution) and were still able to limp down the mountain. A clue here is that most of the group seemed to have walked at a modest pace side by side perhaps to assist YK?
Okay, that makes sense, about the reason that their footsteps weren't hurried, even though they were panicked. The snow didn't allow quick passage.
I too think that Lyudmila's tongue was removed before death. The photo of her with her "face and chest pressed against the rock," which you linked, I believe shows that her head was turned, though. The right side of her face appears to be pressed to the rock, but her mouth and eyes appear exposed. It does not change my thoughts on her tongue, but maybe explains her missing eyes? Perhaps the eyes were removed post-mortem.
I understand what you're saying about the tongue and blood in Lyudmila's stomach, that the blood may have gotten there if she simply bit her tongue before death, but that the tongue may have been removed after death. I still think it was removed before she died, but this, of course, is only speculation.
Okay, skin bath tissue = wrinkled skin from water immersion. This makes much more sense. Skin bath tissue sounds like a Silence of the Lambs type of activity. That is interesting that Rustem Slobodin had this on his foot. I wonder what caused this. More mysteries...
It seems that if ball lightening injured members of the group while in or around the tent, that there would have been signs of them being dragged or helped along on the way to the cedar tree, but it says that the footprints made it clear that each individual walked away without help. Maybe you are saying that the ball lightening also occurred while four of the members were in the ravine, causing their severe injuries then.
I have contacted the Alabama Department of Forensics (U.S.) to ask about bruising. On their website, there is a general timeline of how long it takes bruising to disappear after death: http://adfs.alabama.gov/Bruises.aspx
In normal conditions, bruising will dissapear post-mortem in two-four weeks. However, this is not on frozen bodies. I have asked them how this might differ on a frozen body, specifically a body frozen for three months. It seems to me that the bruising could have been there, then dissapeared over time. Maybe longer than normal, in the case of a frozen body. But, I have no knowledge on the topic.
I came across their website because I mistakenly thought that the body farms were located in Alabama. There are several throughout the U.S., but they are actually based in Texas. I mention this because it is interesting reading, learning about the body farm: http://www.txstate.edu/anthropology/facts/labs/farf.html
They would investigate by them self .
They were aware something was wrong around the mountain.
They named it Mountain of the death or Otorten.
They explained two something wrong - Forest giant, Sky ball.
Assume it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6V20-LSgVN0
I think ..
it is nothing that "their footsteps weren't hurried"
They just had to calm down.
-Snow , hard stones on the pass .
They won't know what the sky ball was ..
but big panic in the tent - maybe unknown, super technology would be used to drive them out of the tent.
Don't forget less -25'C ! With strong wind.
Surely they were in big panic !
If the force was nature or human, They must be damaged in the tent. but No damage !
Only Mental panic !
How could it be nature phenomenon .. ? I doubt ..
Do you know any ball lightning cases that match their injuries . . . ??
sever rib damages ! broken skull ..
You need to try an experiment .
Bite your tongue .
You won't pull out tongue
I've been fascinated with what could have caused the complete disappearance of LD's tongue and base muscle (exposing the hyoid bone) as it's a copycat injury with cattle mutilations which may be connected with ball lightning or rather a possible cause of it - microwaves. However i've come to the view that i'm being over creative and there are several mundane possibilities irrespective of whether she swallowed some blood. She could have bitten it in the event that broke her ribs and as said below a flock of crows could have plucked it out in a few minutes.
Obviously other people will have their own theories but i don't hold with the murder theory, the pathologist was quite clear that the ravine four suffered high energy bone trauma without any sign of tissue damage from an impact. Someone below posted his view that skin doesn't bruise in extreme cold, but i don't think they were that cold in the den, gloves were in jacket and an unbuttoned coat.
Glad you like the ball lightning theory, the author of the viafanzine site clearly likes it as well. He/she alludes to a point that i don't think has been made before on this page, that when they ran off into the night poorly dressed for -20C it was because the area around the tent could have been a lot warmer, possibly above zero, due to microwave energy warming the area up. It wasn't just the hot spot that was warm....
Skin bath tissue?
I know little about the process of decomposition, and of decomposition in sub-freezing/freezing and wet environments, but it does make sense to me that the eyes and soft tissue around the mouth would decompose at a fast rate than the rest of the body, especially if pressed against wet snow. But the tongue makes less sense to me. Are you saying her tongue may have simply decomposed, just as her eyes did?
I was thinking, her ribs being cracked could also have been done if Zolotaryov pressed his knees to her chest while removing her tongue. This could explain why both sides of her ribs were broken. It does not explain why the right side of his ribs were cracked though.
Mysterious, all of it.
Some of your thoughts of the lightening ball seem plausible to me.
Why were the autopsies of the worst victims the least detailed? Why was nothing said of Lyudmila's missing tongue other than that it was missing and blood was found in her stomach (implying the tongue was removed while she was still alive)? It should have been simple to detect whether the tongue had been ripped out or cut out, for example.
I do not know why they left the tent. You wrote that their footsteps weren't hurried, and if they were terribly frightened, I think they would have run. But yet they left without proper clothing. The stove smoking out the tent seems plausible for why they cut holes in the tent from the inside, and maybe explains why they ripped their way out of the tent, if the stove was near the tent's entrance. But then why did they walk so far away from the tent? It seems they would have stayed in the area and then removed the stove from the tent and got back in the tent.
Or maybe they were frightened by someone or something or some phenomena outside the tent, slicing holes in the tent either to see or as a start to ripping the tent open, hoping to get away from whatever or whomever was by the tent's entrance. But then why did they walk, not run from the tent? Were they simply unable to run in the condition of the snow?
Or did the two members outside of the tent, Semen Zolotarev and Nicolai Thibeaux-Brignolle, thought to be relieving themselves, have a fight outside the tent and frighten the others? This also wouldn't explain why they ventured so far from the tent. Unless, one of those men went crazy and drove everyone out. No evidence of this though. It seems likely that they experienced a threat outside of their group, though whether it was a sound, a sight, strange gravity, or attackers, human or non-human, I have no idea. Whatever it was, it was terrifying.
But I do have an idea of how the members of the group died, and what can be deduced from what their autopsies strangely left out.
The people in the ravine obviously lived longer than the others (as they had stripped clothing from the others). And their injuries are the worst.
Maybe everyone went to the cedar tree, and began collecting firewood. The two men who died there, Yuri Doroshenko and Yuri Krivonischenko, had injuries explainable by climbing the tree and maybe falling from the tree. Maybe they were trying to see the tent or maybe they were afraid of something on the ground. That the side of the tree facing the tent had broken branches (evidence of climbing), doesn't necessarily mean that they were looking at the tent. Since they were coming from the direction of the tent, it would make sense that they would climb at the first part of the tree that they reached. It's possible that they were afraid of one or more members of their own group. Or, that they climbed the tree to break off branches to use for firewood. I think that they were both trying to view the tent and break off branches for firewood. The minor burns on their bodies/clothes could be from the fire they made. Regardless, items of their clothing were taken from them. Whether they were already dead or were in a weakened state, it is unknown.
Why did three members of the group then walk toward the tent, and the other remaining members go in the opposite direction? I don't understand this. Maybe there was just a difference of opinion on whether it was safe to return to the tent.
And why do the three members who went toward the tent (Igor Dyatlov, Zinaida Kolmogorova, and Rustem Slobodin) have similar injuries to their hands and faces? I think the three that went toward the tent fought with one another. They bruised their knuckles in the fight, and received blows to their faces from one another. Maybe all three fought one another, or maybe Igor and Zenaida fought with Rustem. It was suggested Igor and Zenaida were close, though not sexual together. Maybe they were dating. Rustem Slobodin was found with a knife in his pocket, and Igor Dyatlov had an incision on his right ankle--maybe Rustem cut Igor. There was also bruising on Igor Dyatlov's front and back ankles, suggesting maybe he was trying to get away from Rustem, while Rustem was on the ground grabbing and cutting at his ankles. Regardless, Igor Dyatlov is found first along the way from the cedar tree to the tent, so he probably died first. I think Rustem was trying to remove Igor's jacket, which would explain why the jacket is unzipped and Igor is clenching it so tightly, to prevent it from being taken from him. Rustem dies next along the trail, and Zinaida gets the furthest toward the tent. Maybe she fought, but then left the two men fighting and made for the tent. Maybe the reason the three of them fought was due to their upset over the deaths of their two friends, Yuri Doroshenko and Yuri Krivonischenko, under the cedar tree. Maybe they fought due to a love triangle between them. The bar-shaped wound on Zinaida's side could have been from a thick tree branch.
All speculation, of course, but I do think they fought one another and it's obvious that they were in a highly upsetting situation, with their two friends dead and whatever happened at the tent to begin with. As their cause of death is hypothermia, I think they injured each other, also causing further exhaustion, and so they simply walked as far as they could before freezing to death. Expect Igor, whom, I believe, Rustem fought and left laying on the ground to freeze, after unsuccessfully trying to remove his jacket.
As for the four remaining members of the group, Lyudmila Dubinina, Alexander Kolevatov, Nikolai Thibeaux-Brignolle, and Semyon Zolotaryov, who went in the opposite direction of the tent from the cedar tree, their deaths are more mysterious.
It seems someone cut or ripped out Lyudmila Dubinina's tongue, as blood was found in her stomach. Everyone is in a state of extreme duress, devestated by the death of their friends (they knew about the deaths of the two Yuri's by the cedar tree), cold, hungry/thirsty, somewhat frostbitten, and frightened. They must have felt desperate. I'm a woman, so as much as I don't want to stereotype the woman of these four, she may have been more hysterical than the others. Maybe not. Perhaps she wouldn't be quiet, speaking incessantly of all her fears. Perhaps she was angry, and blaming one or more others in the group. What we do know is that Semyon Zolotaryov is found wearing her jacket. We also know he had elite military training, and had managed to survive in very desperate situations in the past. Perhaps he knew that positive morale was essential. Maybe he threatened to cut her tongue out if she wouldn't stop talking, then did so. Maybe the two of them struggled, falling together deeper into the ravine. The injuries to their chests are similar. Both have broken ribs on the right side on their chests. This could have been from falling atop one another in the ravine, maybe with Lyudmila Dubinina facing away from Semyon Zolotaryov, he fell on top of her while going after her. Her chest injuries were worse than his, and her ribs of her left side were broken as well. She dies kneeling at the edge of the ravine as if trying to get out of it on an impossible side of it.
As Zolotaryov's injuries from the fall were significant, he likely cut out her tongue and took her jacket before the fall. The injuries of the others, Aleksander Kolevatov and Nikolay Thibeaux Brignolle, could have been inflicted by Zolotaryov as well.
Aleksander Kolevatov's injuries seem to have been done by Zolotaryov, as a "snapped neck and blow behind the ear is a common sign of killing performed by special forces." His jacket was unbuttoned and unzipped. Perhaps he was trying to protect Lyudmila Dubinina and Zolotaryov snapped his neck and hit him with a thick branch (blunt object). Then Zolotaryov started to remove his jacket, but was interrupted.
Nikolai Thibeaux-Brignolle's injuries also could have been inflicted by Zolotaryov. Maybe he and Kolevatov together tried to defend Dubinina.
Then, with Aleksander Kolevatov and
Nikolai Thibeaux-Brignolle defeated, Zolotaryov tries to remove Kolvatov's jacket and Duninina attacks him. Zolotaryov then turns around and starts after Dubinina, taking her jacket instead, and then ripping or cutting out her tongue. She tries to get away from him. Then they fall into the deeper part of the ravine, causing fatal injuries to both. Zolotaryov then tries to write something down, possibly an explanation of why they fled the tent, but dies before he can do so.
I think the missing eyes of Zolotaryov and Dubinina could have been from scavengers, but I'm not sure.
It makes sense to me why Vozrojdenniy, the medical examiner who conducted the autopsies, would have left things out. It was the late 50's, in a small town area. People cared about one another's feelings more than exposing truths at all costs. If he would have said that the injuries of seven of the members were likely inflicted by one another, it would have been devastating to the grieving families. It also would have been an upset to the government in the case of Zolotaryov, as he had been awarded a number of elite military metals. Vozrojdenniy may have feared the government would kill him and simply find another examiner to produce less embarrassing results. It would also have become a blame game, of pointing fingers at "bad" members of the group. Perhaps Vozrojdenniy also understood that people behave much differently in desperate situations than they normally would. Murder is a horrible crime, but when someone is trying to survive and feels it's him or me, it is well within human nature to do what it takes to survive. And Zolotaryov would have known this better than anyone. Self-preservation is always appropriate.
None of this, however, explains why the group suddenly left the tent in the dark, freezing cold night, leaving behind shoes, jackets, and other things necessary for their survival. I have no idea why they did this. But I do think that whatever the trigger situation was, it dissipated, which is why three of the members tried to return to the tent.
So probability is all BL.
This is the only video of BL that explodes that i know of - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D62KzIc-R-4
I'm not sure that would fool the aliens...
As to the question, how could ball lightning be responsible for the three events, tent, cedar, ravine. Well my thoughts are :-
1. Various classifications for the witnessed events including "navigators". Because that's what is observed.
2. The injuries of the cedar two might have occurred at the tent and been the cause of them fleeing? Interesting that they descended in a line abreast, maybe one or two needed assistance from another's shoulder? So possibly only two events to explain.
Also the event killed all the witnesses which considerably amplified the confusion of course.
But not conclusive of course.
I'd opt for fabric.
2) back head color line is very clear.
Not blurred .. It mean bright light lost its strength by a barrier - tent fabric.
1.5 METER
Now, you need to try it.
(1) Make 7 cm sphere(Camera lense) with your fingers .
(2) Idendtify if you can put 3 humans heads in the sphere what Meter behind .
- Maybe, you can put 3 heads in sphere only 1M behind.
Now, you need to try it.
(1) Make 7 cm sphere(Camera lense) with your fingers .
(2) Idendtify if you can put 3 humans heads in the sphere what Meter behind .
- Maybe, you can put 3 heads in sphere only 1M behind.
width - 180
length - 400
height - 100
It s impossible ?
I need more detailed explaination.
I am saying the first photo, I am not saying order between the 12 photos.
but Why 1 photo couldn't be taken in tent ?
If the objects at the bottom are heads then it couldn't have been taken in the tent. But they could be pieces of tent fabric.
back head color)
If so, the photo would be taken,, right before the tent was torn ..
WoW, Chilling !
Looks like three heads looking at ball lightning to me!
Case closed imo.
From that site i posted and Svetlana Oss's book, i've been reading the translation of the pathologists report for NTB. His head injuries were more serious than described here, as well as the damage to the temporal bone, the base of the skull was cracked (anterior cranial fossa) and the fornix broken (this lies at the centre of the brain). Hence the references to similarity with being hit by a car or shockwave. N.B. the damage being extensive enough that the head had lost symmetry...
The injuries to LD, SZ and NTB seem to be either due to :-
1. Falling from height (i've read 60 feet) but no broken limbs?
2. Explosion.
3. Being hit by something like a car.
The pathologist thought that NTB although unconcious could have had signs of life for 2 to 3 hours which (in my theory) explains how ID stayed long enough to get hypothermia.
Michio Kaku (Japan)
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-WtKB051JzTI/UBH6_FkymYI/AAAAAAAAAO0/z0-1fF0livA/s1600/quote2.jpg
Steven Hawking (United Kingdom)
http://cdn.quotesgram.com/img/14/76/841165438-2d8da156174fd8c44d22279499e98352.png
Nope, I trust Mansi witness.
Mansi said many deer were discovered with tongue removed around the incident.
that wasn't only LD
And other ravines weren't discovered without tongue. Even they were in water.
http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Kolevatov-Zolotaryov-Thibeaux-Brignolle-post-mortem.jpg
- 3 members ( ZD, ID, RS) tried to come back to the tent. but I don't agree it ..
they tried to pick up survival stuffs like wear, foot wear, torn tent ..
maybe.. that would be ZD's Idea.
I will explain whole course next..
If they were interstellar travelers , the tech would be very easy technology .
They would be attacked 5-6 times.
JD RS ID they all would be attacked by each 3 attack
Cedar attack - 1
Ravine attack - 1 or 2
whole attack times - 5 or 6
Good point
I think
they dug snow on hill..
snow file collapsed in 20 days. (as the tent was discovered 20 days after)
their footprints was frozen instantly.
someones were discovered under snow
-> much snow would be filed up tree , those snow would fall down As time pass .
Let's see this photos
- Under Cedar tree
http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Krivonischenko-Doroshenko-post-mortem-1.jpg
Under a little tree
http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Igor-Dyatlov-post-mortem-1.jpg
Ivanov said to close one.
" Sky ball is responsible for the incident , whether it is Alien craft or Secret weapon or Natural disaster .. "
He assumed those 3 forces .
He did not say skyball was ball lightning
I feel awkward ,, now..
I couldn't find any sentences related to my question( Did Ivanov conclude the UFO as a nature phenomenon like ball lightning ? )
"A former police officer named Lev Ivanov who led the Inquest in 1959 published an article in 1990 and admitted that the investigative team had seen “flying spheres” themselves! Invanov believed in a paranormal explanation for the groups deaths involving UFOs."
EoinOC - the mountain gets high winds, so the snowfall isn't uniform? The wind drifts would cover some of the path and leave some of it exposed?
DS - maybe Ivanov was wrong, maybe he wasn't. All we can do here is discuss. Could be worth remembering that someone has gone to effort to provide this website and we should all use it with respect.
Nigel /
?
Where is the answer in your sentences ??
MY Question is that Ivanov concluded the sky ball in Nature phenomenon ?
If my English was wrong , I change sentence
- Ivanov concluded the sky ball was a nature phenomenon like Ball lightning ?
My name is Darryl S I live in Adelaide Australia I would LOVE to meet all three of yourself.
Btw who is MODS? No one has used that handle?
ATTENTION MODS/ALL INVESTIGATORS
I put it forth that the two biggest shitposters NIGEL and EXPERT on this site are THE SAME PERSON.
scroll to roughly 1/4 way from the bottom of page
19-10-2016 04:06 (GMT)
First appearance of expert. Judge their interactions for yourself
If that pisses you off that's just tough buddy. If you don't agree then give us your better theory.
For the record expert and i are different posters.
you want to believe ball lightning did this horrific crime so badly i almost feel bad for exposing you.
MODS WHERE ARE YOU??
ATTENTION MODS/ALL INVESTIGATORS
I put it forth that the two biggest shitposters NIGEL and EXPERT on this site are THE SAME PERSON.
scroll to roughly 1/4 way from the bottom of page
19-10-2016 04:06 (GMT)
First appearance of expert. Judge their interactions for yourself
One of the features of BL is the variance between harmless through to ultra deadly. As said before the luxury of the theory is that as we don't know what it is, it can be stretched to fit the evidence because the accounts are so variable.
I've been looking again at YK's hand injuries and questioning the reason that he bit both of the backs of his hands (very hard, with the second bite he died with the epidermis in his mouth). I think he bit his hands because of the excruciating pain of the burn on his leg. So if he was concious after he received the burn, he must have been concious when it happened?....
Hi, look at that video you posted and ask yourself what would you do if it was heading for your tent?
Nigel. Expert. Whoever you are.
You should be ashamed of yourself, can't believe I wasted so much time on your bulls*#t theory and the bulls#*t games you play to try and prove it.
No more from you. No more ball lightning bulls#*t until you post your probable sequence with all evidence supported. Am I clear? Never gonna happen though so please just leave the Dyatlov case alone so we can try to find the real answer to the question that brought us all here.
I put it forth that the two biggest shitposters NIGEL and EXPERT on this site are THE SAME PERSON.
scroll to roughly 1/4 way from the bottom of page
19-10-2016 04:06 (GMT)
First appearance of expert. Judge their interactions for yourself
and Expert isn't my sidekick, he has his own opinions, some we share some we don't.
Btw the KGB, spent a lot of time investigating the DPI (months) because they lost one of their own and when they found him they closed the mountain for three years to continue monitoring what was happening there. Imo that rules them out.
A good question for any kgb theory would be why didnt they destroy all the evidence completely? (Given the isolation and ruthlessness of the kgb to keep secrets
I think it was KGB and military but still much to understand
DS I really want to hear Nigel full story too
and is very empty of ideas from you.
It's time for you to state your ideas or shut up.
I've already asked you many times though so would you be so kind?
Absolutely true. That's why i don't take you seriously because that's exactly what you're doing.
The pathologist was quite clear on what caused the chest injuries and it wasn't fighting.
Plus you have no explanation for the deaths by the fire and none for the exit from the tent.
You're not just cherry picking you're grasping at a single straw that three of the party have bruises on their hands that can be attributed to punching, and nothing else.
Lets hear your end to end explanation for the dpi.
Give me a sequence of events (including all the physical evidence) that fits your theory and I will retract everything I've said.
http://jlnlabs.online.fr/plasma/gmr/index.htm
I think you're stories cooked mate. Your evidence proves nothing and you rely on speculations and assumptions. Sorry it had to end this way.
Have you looked at the wikipedia link for it?
No i'm saying the rescuers - ID, ZK and possibly RS used their hands as shovels and tunneled through snow, ice, twigs and branches to remove their buried friends. They're the ones with the injuries to their hands and face and are not decomposed. The ravine four were too injured to punch their way out of a paper bag.
A number of camera frames aren't published on this site. These consist of exposed film that shows nothing but a black background with a white dot. There is conjecture whether these are bad exposures or true photos perhaps of the night sky.
As you say you've only been researching this for two days....
"How does the fire at the cedar fit into your theory?"
I can say with some confidence that they lit the fire to stay warm....
so according to your theory: he took a single blurry photo of the ball. packed up the the tripod and then returned it to the tent. You can't even prove the photo was taken that night, let alone what is in the photo. The photo beforehand however, tells us much more about their last day alive: It was cold as balls and the weather was terrible.
You're saying that the men PUNCHED their way through snow. This is getting ridiculous Nigel. look at the photo's and tell me again they weren't decomposed at the time of autopsy.
Many many more pieces that don't fit into your story at all. I've only been researching this for two days, you've been at it for over a year and you never tried to fit all the evidence into your theory??? for example: How does the fire at the cedar fit into your theory?
There are 6 films available today in The Dyatlov Pass foundation. There was one more film but it is lost. They have developed it and the pictures are exist but the film itself is missing. Apart from the well known pictures available on the Internet, the films have some rather srange shots which we will discuss below.
The exact number of the cameras in the group is not known. The inventory of the scene lists 3 cameras and there is one tetimony of yet another camera.
The camera № 488797 (Krivonischenko’s) was found with it’s color filter broken and it was attached to a tripod.
No need for armchair investigators to get heated...
You say that the ravine male members weren't preservered enough. It is recorded that NTB had two bruises and AK had bleeding in the knee. If they had had cuts and bruises on their hands they would have been noticed and recorded. The evidence is not consistent with fighting but is consistent with the remaining able bodied members franctically digging the ravine four out of (tons?) of snow and hurting their hands on ice, twigs, branches etc. Ditto the face marks on ID, SZ nd RS. The report consistently uses the words abrasions and scratches to describe the marks on all three faces. Not bruises. Imo this is consistent with rescuing the injured from under the snow and not consistent with fighting.
The ball lightning is a well documented phenomena and both myself and Expert have posted videos of it on this page. BL is well documented as burning and exploding with significant force.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_lightning .
"cooperation and death" -
cooperation - they voluntarily shared clothing.
death - they removed clothing from the dead to assist the living.
Svetlana Oss's website - she is a Russian journalist who speaks English and the author of the book on the DPI "Don't go there". You might like to read it as she supports your view of death by violence by humans. Personally i think her conclusion is rubbish but she has researched the case well accessing all the official archives etc.
care to elaborate on that?
I have based my theory around the clothing absolutely. but also the injuries and other solid evidence (the fire, the sub zero temps, things that actually exist).
It's a shame the three den men weren't preserved as well as the others. As I'm sure their hands would have answered many questions.
All of your evidence for the hotspot could be proof of almost anything. a flying saucer. a bomb blast.
What exactly is "consistant" about ball lightning? You can't even proove it exists.
"LD's chest had fractures on both sides", yes that's simply explained by the explosion. The shockwave could simultaneously fracture several parts of the chest with a compression phase and a vacuum phase.
Evidence for ball lightning, the hot spot of course which is consistent with the snow being melted in high winds (ridges), and the burnt tree tops (but that could be lightning also). The numerous tent slits all at a similar height indicate they were watching something as does the tripod and the in use cameras and photos of night sky with just a dot of white light. The burns and ravine deaths by shockwave are all consistent with ball lightning/lightning.
SZ was placed with the group to ensure the safe return of valuable state assets, particularly perhaps AK as they would be getting near to the Finnish border and defection was a concern of the state. His orders would be to ensure their protection not kill them if he got cold.... Even with a flail chest and the knowledge he was dying he was trying to leave a note to those that found him a professional to the end.
You put great store in that they wore each others clothes as proof of violence. I don't see that at all there are other causes, cooperation, order of death.
That they were found 6-10 meters from the den is imo support for the theory that they were placed there by the remaining able bodied members who dug them out of the snow. It was a nursing station. In particular the bodies were laid so that their heads were only one foot apart. This was to monitor them.
RS didn't have a double skull fracture, only one side was fractured, he had haemorhages on both sides. This can be easily explained by the explosion theory, the shockwave cracked his skull and pushed the other side into the den wall or he landed on the other side of his head. Ditto AK had a snapped neck from being thrown through the air and landing on his head.
Feel free to attack further.
I don't think some hiker ate some hiker haha
they all died only 6-8 hours after dinner.
You need to explain how the first event happened in the tent. (by some human)
I am not a ball lightning Expert, haha (you, Ask Nigel that rather than me)
and I am still investigating ball lightning or lightning injuries.
and I am not sure that Sky ball around the tent was nature phenomenon . Rather artificial object of aliens .
but I suggest you :
Lightning doesn't have only power . but these forces- power, electronic,heat
It won't hit a direction because Lightning happen by streaming of electron
(it could hit right and left side of the skull in same time)
lightning bolt - their streaming always doesn't leave burn trace.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3767075/Herd-19-cows-killed-single-lightning-strike-sheltering-tree-storm.html (it doesn't look like sever burns)
Of course, I am still studying lightning . . . http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2933333/The-science-SUPERSTORMS-Diagrams-reveal-perilous-processes-taking-place-tornadoes-thunderstorms-more.html
My drawing might be around ending .
But give me time to make clear conclusion haha
Their wears, stuffs are one of the important points. Of course, I am checking out your opinion to get new idea from other viewer
I focus on that.
Most presumptions are useless. They are Away from Logic.
but Alien conception on many peoples is Monsters in Star wars or other movies .
Evolution would be usual phenomenon because The Universe have common rule of evolution . - Whole star system will have habitable zone in someday as stars are aged
-Atomic that composed earth lives Already have been spread in The Universe through Super Nova explosion . like Carbon, Oxygen, Hydrogen, Nitrogen .......(It is mention by Science and it is testified by spectrum analysis)
-time gap(age) between star systems range billions years (evolution difference)
Our star system is young ( supposed around 5billions ) but some stars were aged around 15billions - in big bang range. Those scientific data say intelligent lives are very common than we think. but Many peoples still think aliens are monsters in Hollywood.
http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Lyudmila-Dubinina-post-mortem-1.jpg .
DS / I think they did run and hide. But it wasn't difficult for their murderers to find them, especially with the fire. I think the fire is what fated the group.
The possibility involved to sky ball is high.
1)all course had hot spot from tent to Cedar tree, Ravine (pink sphere is hot spot around tent)
http://www.viafanzine.jor.br/002imag/03_13/dyatlov4_cedro.jpg
2) some peoples who experienced the site believed that skyball would be responsible for the incident
(Mansi tribe, search group student, official investigator .. some soviet governors)
3)No Evidence of invasion(no foot trace from outer)
So , I focus on that .
but your idea on human action (murder possibility) is a possibility on my idea .
I discounted some possibilities -animal attack, Yeti, fire in the tent, avalanche , infra sound ..
but I still don't exclude human possibility.
it's possible in the course. (Criminal Possibility in nervous circumstance would be much higher than Usual circumstance)
but
it won't be a basical disaster that drove them into the forest.
Anyway, I am checking out your opinions.
Mansi seemingly knew everything .
They knew there was something wrong around the region.
but
even Dyatlov groups discounted their opinion , considering just folktale or superstition. and wanted thrill , adventure.
At last,which was connected to their tragic.
Mansi were afraid of the Mountain Naming it Otorten.
Problem is the origin of Sky ball - Whether it is originated on nature or artificial technology .
How did the ball cause them to be scared ? that would be the point relative to this incident .
Starting point (from tent) is solution of everything .
Teddy - LD and SZ have the same injuries from the same event?
The bodies weren't heavily decomposed, they had been frozen solid for most of their time under the snow. NTB is recorded as having a bruise on the upper lip and his extensive skull fracture had no tissue damage to explain an impact.
They didn't take a wrong direction down the mountain, the base camp held 55kg of food for the return journey, a mandolin, a spare pair of skis and little else. They deliberately headed to the forest to shelter from the wind, make a fire and watch the tent (from the cedar) for an opportunity to return to it once the threat that had caused them to leave had gone away.
Granted the campfire versus the den suggests a disagreement, but it doesn't have to be so. They could have built the den with the plan to rotate people between it and those keeping watch at the campfire/cedar.
But the reason that the Soviet Army suffered such huge losses in WW2 was in part due to their battle strategy which favoured hitting the enemy as hard as possible above conserving resources including manpower. One of the ways this was achieved was that in battles the rear guard was composed of NKVD (the forerunner of the KGB) who shot any Russian soldier that dared to retreat. The ordinary Russian soldier had a choice of dying going forward or dying going back. It would be my expectation that survival rates of NKVD were much better. N.B. it was much the same for the ordinary German soldier fighting on the Russian front with the SS taking the place of the NKVD. It was a tough war...
When the rescue party reached the tent they recorded signs of urination some distance from it, so it's a good theory that SZ and NTB had popped out for a pee just at the right moment and hence were fully dressed. Also the footsteps indicate that one or two of them joined the main group further down the slope to support that theory. Also SZ has no injuries consistent with brawling, in fact only ID, RS and ZK have.
and they would be attacked by artificial lightning around Cedar or Ravine
My wonder is ..
These ball could make 9 hikers feel panic mood ,
Causing them to flee from tent to forest At 30' C below 0 with bare foot or slight wears ? ? ?
What a cute ball !
The sky ball hovering around the tent must make them super scared .
Bizarre life came out of the craft or caused unknown fear .
I am reading now the Portugal site through google translation ..
here is a good suggestion by a search group student .
...........
Mikhail Sharavin (UPI student, along with Boris Slobtsov, found the dyatlovtsy tent): "I have an opinion on the question of why they left the tent so urgently: these were probably factors that affected them. They could not breathe. If there was a displacement of the snow, they would not run in such a situation. I think it was the factors associated with the unknown and the inability to continue staying there. They could not breathe! (...) That's why they ran. "
For hikers, the first factor that affected them in relation to the Object was the psychological commotion. Such an object was by no means familiar to the Dyatlovtsy, being for them something inexplicable and unpredictable, and therefore this generated fear and panic. If it represented any understandable technical device, however dangerous it might be, the behavior of young engineers and students would have been different"
The Malvern case describes rolling bl with strong mechanical energy, note the burns and burning of hair on one side (YD). An alternative cause for flail chest injuries (like in a car crash)?
Some of the dpi group had multiple scratches on the face, ZK was found with her face covered in blood from them and an indian professor connects them with ball lightning, well well....
" that is only information you want to hear"
and that's the opinion of the mansi and the police investigator.
What are these deer injuries, i don't know about them?
Didn't understand the rest of your post.
Why do you consider only sky ball except for Menk , that is only information you want to hear ^^ ?
Why Did explosion of BL make bizarre injuries around the day ? containing bizarre injuries of deer.
and
this is a repeated question by me .
BL was hovering around the tent , then bl gave hikers time enough to escape from tent and make a fire ..
after first attack , Ravine group took some wears from 2 death .
and other BL appeared to RaVine hikers (making cold spot around ravine) . and it killed ravine group.
tongue is not soft muscle . but disappeared somewhere ..
Of course, I still am in investigation about BL injuries
http://www.rense.com/general28/ball.htm
but Whole course is too weird to be considered as a nature phenomenon .
http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/simon_garfunkel/the_boxer.html Happy
As detailed in previous posts, other groups that saw "lights" :-
Management at a nearby colliery same week (and heard two explosions).
Another ski group in the same area in the same week.
The rescue party something like two months later and radioed their concerns to HQ.
How did other groups support Ball lightning ?
This woman took alien photo with hand phone .
Even there were Medical evidences .
but I don't expect you to believe . .. ^^
No broken limbs, no tissue damage to explain the flail chests and skull fractures.
They fit with barotrauma, i.e. the pathologist's report - "like the shockwave from a bomb".
The ball lightning theory isn't just supported by the Mansi but by other groups of reliable witnesses who saw lights as well in the same area at the same time and even heard explosions..
But lets try the alien theory out.
They flee the tent because a spaceship is hovering nearby, close enough to the ground to melt the snow.
Then they light a fire.....
One of the several fascinating questions of the dpi is what was it that made them flee and prevented them from returning but unafraid to light a fire?
Imo it rules lots of possibilities out like alien, animal, human, any intelligent life, but rules in natural phenomena such as lightning, ball lightning.
I'm not trying to disprove aliens.
In an era of smartphones i look forward to the next Voronezh or nothing, either way in the next say 50 years we should have proof.
But i don't think they're responsible for ball lightning.
N.B. if you want to look for an alternative theory, military testing, perhaps parachute mines would be a good start, with the high winds dispersing the evidence.
Mansi didn't say that was Yeti
(seems the word was mistranslated by Russians)
Menk means ''forest giant'' in Mansi language.
it could be alien from other world (in the Universe)
Check out - my re posting
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6V20-LSgVN0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccdDvkGg6z8
Nigel /
the trace could be left by Alien Craft , too
because Microwave isn't special phenomenon but only a type wave of some electronic waves .
As I said, I did not discount Menk
Mansi tribes sensed there was something wrong around Otorten before the incident. (from bizarre incidents)
there were 2 things mentioned by Mansi .
1 is golden ball
2 is Menk
You discounted 1 of them .
You said that there was hot spot around ravine as well.
Do you have any information About the size, shape of the hot spot ?
The same statement can be applied to the (genuine) crop circles were the stems aren't mechanically bent but seem to have folded with heat and steam believed to be due to microwaves and this effect is strongest in the centre and reduces (linearly?) to the circumference.
Seems to be the same thing.
Nigel /
Microwave of Lightning make Ball lightning
Microwave trapped in BL made cold spot (wave type) around the tent.
that wasn't your idea ?
you did not think (a)example made snow cold spot ?
The Turkish events would have to be either genuine or a hoax imo, alien implants that just look like bits of glass pushes me to the hoax side...
N.B. i'm not trying to prove aliens don't exist, just that many ufo sightings might have a natural explanation.
It's not "microwaves come from ball lightning" but "ball lightning comes from microwaves".
personally I don't discount the unknown life
the combination could make the incident .
I admit it s possible (from some hikers injuries)
but the possibility would be very rare.
1 ] BL around the tent made them scared
and they fled from tent to tree .
2 ] then, Lightning hit hikers under tree
3 ] next,,, Other powerful lightning hit hikers around ravine
and 2 hikers got bizarre injuries
why were the regional lightning or bl so bizarre around the incident ?
(some deer got vacant eyesokets as well)
I doubt Dubinnina bite tongue or BL caused it to be disappeared .
1)she Bite tongue ? ? ? ? ? ?
I bite my tongue in experiment now, haha ..
then, I bite Only 1/3 .. How HER Tongue could be pull out ?
2 ) BL or Lightning made it disappeared ?
- I Researched BL or Lightning injuries and couldn't find those injuries - removed eyes or tongues
Of course, Then, the force of lightning could make isolated incident .. but I doubt
I read soldier or Geologist witnessed the several things
Some witnesses said several lightning objects . It couldn't be like this ? Check out 3:22 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUEjeYn5Obg
Expert - the bl theory assumes that they stayed at the fire because they were unable to return to the tent because the bl was hovering there, (long enough to soften the snow). Doesn't have to be the same instance of bl that killed them and could have been lightning instead and if it was the same object then if it moved at speed it wouldn't melt the snow.....
Expert - the bl theory assumes that they stayed at the fire because they were unable to return to the tent because the bl was hovering there, (long enough to soften the snow). Doesn't have to be the same instance of bl that killed them and could have been lightning instead.
n.b. ufo observers report "lights" over the fields on the same nights. Google "youtube cropcircle lights".
I read the site written in Portugal language .
my question is ..
why wasn't the cold spot connected from the tent to the forest ? it mean the object rise up ? (before it chased the 9 hikers.)
http://www.viafanzine.jor.br/site_vf/pag/5/dyatlov_part04.htm
Yes that's the point, the invisible microwave that can be seen by radar (depending on wavelength) can produce an object (ball lightning) that can be seen visually.
I'll have a dig for the hot spot.
but this is so easy way .. like Pyramid was constructed with aliens . haha
I focus on nature phenomenon or human action
If ball lightning can form in the antinode of a standing microwave system - https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi7vMrNtJXSAhUF2BoKHYPXB_8QjRwIBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.antonine-education.co.uk%2FPages%2FPhysics_2%2FWaves%2FWAV_04%2FWaves_Page_4.htm&bvm=bv.147448319,d.d2s&psig=AFQjCNFITaQnu6KUXot7T0d6Dcw0ZrAM1w&ust=1487361755810914
Then what if the "ball" can become elongated and form a cigar? What if the the cigar becomes circular and forms a disc? If several antinodes in a line form balls then you have a "string of pearls".
The microwave standing wave system might produce radar frequencies and appear on radar. If an aircraft approaches this metal object it will disturb the standing wave system and the changes will be seen to move very quickly.
Now read this - http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/chasing-ufos/articles/five-good-reasons-to-believe-in-ufos/
http://www.nature.com/articles/srep28263
"Ball lightning, a fireball sometimes observed during lightnings, has remained unexplained. Here we present a comprehensive theory for the phenomenon: At the tip of a lightning stroke reaching the ground, a relativistic electron bunch can be produced, which in turn excites intense microwave radiation. "
N.B. the paper is from Nature a respected scientific journal.
So building on this paper, lightning produces intense microwave energy which can result in cattle mutilations and other effects - "Others57 reported skin redness, vomiting and loss of hair, which are typical results of ionizing radiation".
From historical records it is known that ball lightning can electrocute and explode so it provides a complete theory for the DPI, it can explain the fleeing from the tent, burns, barotrauma, loss of tongue, skin colour, hair loss, vomiting. The rescue from the collapsed den can explain injuries to hands and face consistent with fighting. It's all there.
The local mansi people had it right all along, it was the golden orbs....
Why 2 Yuris..............in terrible weather
????? why ?
1. The footsteps seemed to show a rather organized descent in group and the number showing all 9 people walking out of tent.
2. The gravity affected them so strongly and yet each of the contents in the tent even their shoes remained "as is" with no signs of sudden departure.
And many more...
Well thats why it will remain a mystery."
But wrt the gravity theory or lack of it.
Apparently a feature of cattle mutilations is that the animals can be found on snow or mud where there are no sign of any tracks leading to the animal.
It's as if they dropped from the sky....
However in the case of the DPI, the footprints would seem to undermine this a little
These injuries seem to belong solely to ID, RS and ZK.
According to my "ravine explosion theory" these three are the last able bodied members (RS perhaps limited capability).
So what if the explosion resulted in a collapsed den burying them in deep snow?
The remaning three - ID, RS, ZK would try and rescue them and dig them out with their bare hands? They would know that time would be limited and they would have to work fast using their hands as shovels, picking up bruising, cuts and scratches on their hands. This might also involve tunneling resulting in a lot of facial scratches (from ice and twigs). There could perhaps be a further collapse of a rescue tunnel injuring RS who could originally be able bodied?
The rav4 were found in a close group with their heads together (one foot apart). SZ was wearing two items of LD's clothing. This fits with the pathologist's report that SZ outlived LD, so those looking after the victims removed clothing from LD after she died to make SZ more comfortable. They were found 6-10 meters from the den in a tight group because that's were the rescuers placed them after digging them out of the den.
As to the question, if the den collapsed do we need an explosion theory at all? Well i'm not qualified to differentiate the injuries between an explosion or the crushing force of a collapsed den (tonnes of snow?). A distinct feature here is that the strong force required to split rib cages didn't break any limbs at all, which imo favours explosion over crushing. So i'd still favour an explosive shock wave that created the flail chests but moved all the snow above as well collapsing the den and burying them.
You already asked this question on 2016-11-30 17:07:24
1. they had no use for the stove that night because they had no firewood. They travelled with 3 axes and some knives and would have collected firewood locally around the camp each evening. But that night of course was unusual in that they were above the treeline. It's possible that there was a change of plan due to the storm and they were originally planning to spend the night at the forest (with a hot stove). Their loads when they started out with all the food for the trip were 40kg for the men and 30kg for the girls. No room or need to carry firewood on your backs!
2. Most of their food (50kg) was left at the base camp for the return journey. From memory they had a 3kg piece of smoked brisket (beef) and some signs (pieces of rind) of consuming it that evening presumably cold. Although note that most of them hadn't eaten for 6-8 hours.
3. A flask of alcohol was found in the tent, i'm not aware of a report that says they were intoxicated.
4. Some of the burnt clothing will be from drying their kit on the stove for too long in previous evenings.
So i think the author has his facts wrong and more importantly skips over the central question that they had no time to collect footwear and outer clothing and were unable to return to the tent for some time afterwards. Difficult to blame that on some smoke....
I know Nigel commented on Luk that "the stove was found dismantled, it wasn't used that evening" but the video says that there was fried bacon and ham (never heart of that before) so the stove must have been used earlier and an ember reignited after the stove was taken apart. The stove theory starts after the min 13:20. Another thing bothered me 5:27 "It should also be noted that four of them had died while intoxicated." referring to the first 5 bodies. I have to check just for my files how much was the alcohol in their blood, and presuming it was the men excluding Zina. MHO the facts are shaped around this theory. Every time somebody introduces a theory facts are being manipulated. Like the cooked food and consumed alcohol. I know they carried vodka, but no empty bottles were found.
Afaik the main features of CM are :-
1. Missing eyes and tongue at the front, missing genitalia and anal (blood rich) muscle at the rear.
2. Blood missing.
3. Cauterised wounds at the front and rear orificies (no bleeding).
4. No other damage to skin/hide.
5. Internal organs intact but unusual coloration.
The selectivity of the injuries seems to somehow be a fit with those posts on microwaves. Grapes = eyes, hot dogs = tongue.
"Complex spherical models of the human head consisting of a core of brain tissue and spherical shells simulating the skull and the scalp indicated that hot spots or localized regions of high energy absorption could occur in the center of the brain with magnitudes much higher than observed at the surface of the head due to the focusing of energy by the high dielectric constant and spherical shape of the head (Shapiro et ale [161], Guy [71]). More extensive analyses using spherical, prolate spherical, and ellipsoidal models created a much better understanding of the absorbed energy patterns in the bodies of man and animals exposed to EM fields (Ho et ale [78], Durney et ale [38], Johnson et ale [86], Massoudi et ale [113], Gandhi [62], Allen et ale [3])."
From memory expert's link to that russian site discusses the appearance of brain tissue.
But separate to that, it would follow that if the head focuses EM radiation then the greatest effect would be observed in the blood rich muscle tissue within the head, i.e. the tongue...
Shortwave RF
Shortwave diathermy heating of human tissue only heats tissues that are good electrical conductors, such as blood vessels and muscle. Adipose tissue (fat) receives little heating by induction fields because an electrical current is not actually going through the tissues.[19]
https://www.wired.com/2014/05/wuwt-microwave-metal/
video clip at the bottom, grape microwave plasma.
https://www.wired.com/2014/05/wuwt-microwave-metal/
This same electromagnetic activity can do a number on metal. The oscillation of the microwaves can produce a concentrated electric field at corners or an edge of a metallic object, ionizing the surrounding air “so you can hear it popping away,” says Ross. You might also see sparking, which “is a little like lightning,” she adds. This kind of microwave sound and light show isn’t limited to metal. Ross sometimes puts on a demonstration for her kids: She cuts up hot dogs, creating sharp edges, and “watches the electric sparks jumping between them.”
"Microwave cavity hypothesis
Pyotr Kapitsa proposed that ball lightning is a glow discharge driven by microwave radiation that is guided to the ball along lines of ionized air from lightning clouds where it is produced. The ball serves as a resonant microwave cavity, automatically adjusting its radius to the wavelength of the microwave radiation so that resonance is maintained.[66][67]
The Handel Maser-Soliton theory of ball lightning hypothesizes that the energy source generating the ball lightning is a large (several cubic kilometers) atmospheric maser. The ball lightning appears as a plasma caviton at the antinodal plane of the microwave radiation from the maser.[68]"
microwave radiation could perhaps explain the loss of iron rich soft tissues in cattle mutilations, blood, tongue, anal muscle....
I'll stay with natural causes that science has yet to explain properly.
Ok it's my assumption that the photo represents 4 seats that have been disturbed. Certainly doesn't look like 7 or 9. Four deaths in the ravine and what looks like four seats... Plus injuries consistent with fighting. Hence a reasonable assumption that the group split up.
they were not divided , but just working in each role.
-They make a fire under Cedar tree,,because of sever weather. but they got aware - that can be dangerous .
so well dressed peoples go to dig a den , slightly dressed peoples (2peoples) warm bodies around little fire.
3 peoples (igor group) collect branches and carry to the den.
Then there are first attack around Cedar .
I am still investgating this incident. - the 4 peoples were known to die at last moment.
we maybe don't know most important information.
some soviet governors would know it .
ok, your mention is thoughtful
but
those photos have been spread on internet.
and this site exist for debating the cause.
the important thing to me is how they got the injury. I don't want to know who they are..
but wanna know what force through the injuries.
Can you right click, View Image Info, copy the name of the images you consider offensive and send them to info(at)dyatlovpass.com
I don't think the tribe told a lie.
but I think they knew a wrong truth - that was not Yeti and the program,,Russian Yeti,, drove the being to Yeti.
great working of him.
I am very interested ,, I feeling like time-machine photo. haha
(I got wrong information ?? I thought their skin turn brown , but she just got brown spot.)
I highly appreciate lightning presumption of Nigel - the possibility seems to be higher than I thought earlier ,,
I got the awareness after research lightning disasters on internet...
Of course, I have some reasons I keep alien attack presumption.
I will debate diverse possibility with open mind .
1. The government spent a lot of money investigating it.
2. The first thing Boris Yeltsin did on taking control of the country was to interview the relevant management to discover what they knew about the DPI.
3. "Unknown and compelling force" isn't very creative as a cover up. Imo it's the best argument against one.
[20] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_lightning
[21] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thundersnow
[22] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning scroll down to "Positive and negative lightning"
as an aside note the comment that aircraft might not be protected from positive polarity lightning....
btw it's lightning not lightening.
I forgot to mention that Ivanov apparently favoured "the fireball theory", perhaps your entry should correct that.
Cheers Nigel.
Can you give me the references [20], [21] and [22], I want to rephrase my text for your theory that I published under http://dyatlovpass.com/theories#lightening
I've complained and pointed out that the explanation section should state that Ivanov favoured ball lightning (although that gets a mention further on) and my contribution is to observe that cold weather lightning could explain the injuries together with suggesting a timeline. Imo more sensible than yetis and infrasound...
Ball lightning and Lightning
Nigel Evans at http://dyatlovpass.com/comments has proposed an explanation for the event including a combination of ball lightning and lightning strikes. The tent slits, hot spot near the tent and a camera on a makeshift tripod suggest that they were observing something in the sky. Given that the local Mansi people blamed the golden orbs for the tragedy and the repeated sightings of lights in the sky from reliable witnesses in the same period together with photos from the group's cameras possibly of aerial lights, it is plausible that the group fled from the tent due to an occurrence of ball lightning [20] getting very close to the tent and hovering there melting the snow beneath to create the hot spot. The group then hurried to the treeline 1500 meters away and lit a fire whilst they waited for the object to disappear. The theory then describes how the two deaths at the cedar were due a single electrocution event (due to normal lightning strike or ball lightning) creating burnt hair, bleeding head orifices, large burns, burnt clothing, pulmonary edema and tree damage and the subsequent four deaths in the ravine due to an explosion event near to the den (again due to a more powerful lightning strike or ball lightning). Although cold weather lightning is rare it is possible see [21]. The theory suggests that the ravine lightning strike hit close to the den and vapourised a substantial quantity of stream water, snow and ice (positive polarity strikes - [22] can produce 300,000 amps and temperatures several times hotter than the surface of the sun, e.g. 30,000C) creating an explosion amplified by the confines of the ravine that threw the den and it's occupants 6 to 10 meters resulting in blunt force injuries similar to a car accident or barotrauma. The theory suggests that the three surviving members died in two groups, RS was injured and urgently had to be returned to the tent assisted by ZK. Due to snow drifts and high winds he collapsed on the journey and ZK also further on due to the same plus exhaustion from the effort of assisting him. ID remained with the ravine four as LD and SZ although badly injured stayed alive for some time afterwards and NTB was unconcious. ID may have stripped the two bodies at the cedar (turning the bodies) to provide more insulation for those still alive and possibly contributed some of his own. Some time later he decided to abandon his vigil and return to the tent but died being the only member of the group to have clear signs of hypothermia.
The above may or may not appear on the wikipedia page depending...
@admin - i've included the link on the assumption that you approve of the exposure, please advise if otherwise.
Personally, a combination of madness and fear of an avalanche caused the incident. But I've ordered some books and I look forward to piecing it all together soon.
None of the ravine 4 could have walked after their injuries. AK snapped neck, LD+SZ flail chests.
It certainly does. I am adding links to Dyatlovmania page as I follow your discussion and I will certainly translate some of the content of this site. Your comments are much appreciated.
http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/Lyudmila-Dubinina-post-mortem-1.jpg
curious - lots of snow plus lots of wind equals little snow in exposed sites and lots of snow in sheltered places (wind drifts). The ravine was full to the brim (flat) with snow.
We don't know what YK and YD wore, ZK+RS were well dressed.
Expert - the branch probably broke off in the wind
This is the things I can answer.
1) They fell or were thrown into snow pile around ravine .
2) The Question was one of the reasons why I suspected they were sacrificed by artificial force.
3) I don't know what you mean. that is trustworthy information ?
Do you think this broken branch was caused by lightning?
http://gipotezi.ru/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/ivanov2.jpg This would be made by someone climbing tree to watch out the force , and he left skin tissue of him on Cedar bark .
Do you think they couldn't know that was a nature disaster since they fled from the tent??
[ other disaster they encountered was sever weather.
If I was one of them, I would return fastly for some clothes , shoes, tent.
So I guess there was the force around tent ]
1) The amount of snow on the area: When the search party arrived,there were still foot prints around the tent and through the forest for some 500mts. So it did not snow much after the incident...How come the 4 corpses in the ravine found under 4mts of snow?
2) It is also strange that only the better clothed team members (found in the ravine) have mortal wounds. It is as if someone used brutal force as a last resort only for the skiers that will not be killed by the cold weather...Government involvement?
3) Offical cover up/disinformation: Maria Ivanovna (medical assistant) claims she saw 11 bodies not 9...But the ravine group was found 3 months later so, she should have seen 5 (or 7 seven bodies first) then + 4 corpses, 3 months later..
IMHO, official reports may not be that trustworthy.
LD, SK received fatal wounds near the cedar tree. Were taken to the side of the river afterwards?
So LD, SK, before the death of the cedar was next to the tree, then taken to the side of the river, was not safe place?
"I think those were burnt by their fire around Cedar tree".
Well it is a big burn, 31cm, charred down to the tissue. He would have to be unconscious (or dead).
No, if the stream provided a good earth then the current wouldn't leave a crater, it would just follow the stream overground. Might vapourise the stream of course. If there was any damage to the stream bed this would be hidden by the water which would have strengthened by the time they were found.
Or they can be found with severe burns of course.
It all depends on the current and it's strength and path to earth. Some people just feel a strong tingle and live, some get killed, thrown and stripped naked, others get bad burns.
So my theory is :-
Cause of fleeing from the tent - lightning strike close to the tent or ball lightning. The slits and hot spot could be due to either, the camera on a tripod favours ball lightning.
Cause of deaths at fire - mild lightning strike directly hitting the 2 yuris, damaging the cedar branches and scorching the tree tops. Also creates burnt clothing.
Cause of deaths in ravine - the group had split into two due to fighting. The ravine four made a snow cave that had four seats. RS went to talk to them. A powerful explosion occurred close to the den either by a lightning strike or ball lightning. This threw the rav4 6 to 10 meters from the den (with a lot of snow) into the stream. LD and SZ got the shockwave the worst, NTB and AK less but they suffered a severe skull fracture and a broken neck as they landed. RS being nearby was thrown but not violently enough to be fatal (or he was lucky) but still another head injury. RS was found to have wrinkled "prune" skin on his feet. A possible cause is that he landed in the stream and his right boot filled with water.
Cause of death of last three - ID, ZK rush over to help. The explosion has thrown tons of snow into the air and off the trees which is covering the bodies. LD and SZ are still alive but unable to move. AK is dead with a broken neck and NTB is unconcious (and never recovers) from the head injury. RS is moving, dazed but concious. Clearly RS's only chance is to get him back to the tent. So ZK leaves with RS whilst ID tends to the wounded and the dying. But the wind and/or the snow drifts defeat them and RS collapses, his body still warm enough to melt the snow beneath him. ZK is stronger but she falls into a deep snow drift that defeats her, she dies from exhaustion (RS would have been a big burden) but not hypothermia.
ID stays at the ravine trying to help LD, NTB and SZ. as a true professional KGB agent, SZ is trying to write in his diary but fails. LD is alive for 20 minutes (the patholgist estimated this from the internal bleeding this is apparently possible even though a rib had punctured her heart). Although three are still alive ID cannot leave them to freeze to death, he tries to make them comfortable by stripping the two Yuris of their clothes and dressing the survivors with extra layers whilst he waits for ZK to return. He waits but he is getting very cold. Finally he decides that ZK isn't returning (or all three appear to be dead) and heads for the tent. But he has waited too long and is the only member of the group that dies with the classic symptoms of hypothermia.
"Although these marks look pretty damn cool, they are extremely rare, and most people come off much worse when struck by lightning! So don't try to recreate them at home by shocking yourself. "
Good advice
http://www.nolm.us/wp-content/uploads/kanadada-serbestce-dolasan-ren-geyigi-surusu-nolmus-15.jpg
Do you think the deer rug could have crushed them? (:
Tongue and eyes can be eaten by rotten or flying rattles for a long time due to snow and river water.
1. lightning just outside the tent, (hot spot) scared them into running away. The slits are from watching lightning approach. If it's 2-3 miles away you can't even hear the thunder due to the snow (thundersnow). So it could quite scary.
2. Cedar and ravine could have been one multiple strike or two seperate strikes. I favour one strike that splits into two. Lichtenberg figures are typically were the victim lives from a mild strike. Note you can't see any on this guy - http://www.eplasty.com/article_images/eplasty08e46_fig1.gif
One of the Yuris had black arms from the hands to the elbow and a 31 cm burn on the leg and foot. Good question why the autopsy didn't ask about electrocution. All the evidence fits including pulmonary edema (but several causes for that one).
but even this doesnot look perfect. .
Nigel /
this is the looks when eagles were struck by lightning .
http://m0.i.pbase.com/o3/90/560490/1/89247750.UgDu57WV.05.JPG
this is the looks of human struck by lightning
he was not burnt , but got mark
https://i2.wp.com/www.capturedlightning.com/frames/human_LF2.jpg
My question
1950's Experts couldn't know their injury were related to lightning ?
4 peoples dig a den after lightning strike around cedar . and third strike ? 1, 2, 3 ?
They fled from the tent urgently
They gathered around cedar tree
They were attacked by second lightning around Cedar
They got damaged
They scattered from Cedar
it is hard homework for lightning ^ ^
If lightning was responsible for the incident, the tent was burnt by it , wasn't it ?
Well, I think avalanche presumption is very unlikely.
only a little snow covered the tent ! and there were many footprint from tent to 500M site. even a little wind could cause tent in steep hill to be covered.
1. there's no sign of one, not even a small slab avalanche. Alpine experts were part of the investigation.
2. their last meal was 6-8 hours previously so it's highly probable that they died by 8-9pm. So they weren't sleeping. Very likely to have been sitting.
3. No broken limbs which could be expected.
4. The footprints would have indicated if people were being carried or limping.
5. LD's and SZ's injuries were too severe for them to go anywhere even if stretchered. LD had a broken rib pushed into her heart. Impossible for those two to have walked or even be helped, the flail chests meant that each breath would have been extremely painful. They died quickly afterwards, with SZ found trying to make a note in his diary. If they had have died at the tent then why not leave them there? Or else drag the bodies?
The mountaineers were sleeping in the tent, perhaps crossing the sleepers in a small avalanche.
Sleeping at the entrance of the tent door RUSTEM SLOBODIN (not much damage) LIUDMILA DUBININA, SEMIAN ZOLOTARYOV, NIKOLAI THIBEAUX-BRIGNOLLE are injured due to the avalanche effect.
The mountaineers are tearing the tent on this event and bring their wounded friends to the forest side more safely. There are a total of 8 footprints on the ground. Because probably NIKOLAI THIBEAUX-BRIGNOLLE died in the tent. 5 people who are in good condition after they hurt their wounded friends also die hypothermia.
It is quoted in a document. Https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rItOKPEiC4
If the threat was lightening ,
they might want rather lightening than the state .
Suggests that they had to immediately leave but they expected to be able to return shortly.
It's a fascinating problem, they had to flee without time to grab clothing but they were waiting by the cedar for the chance to return to the tent.
I have a question , do you know ? : they had storage house near tent . what it looked like ? How far it was away from tent ?
but
"why did they flee the tent and then light a fire 1500 meters away but still unable to return to the tent although suffering from frostbite in -20C?".
There aren't lot of possibilities to answer this :-
1. Prisoners - but no sign of attackers.
2. Madness or intoxication - but clear signs of orderly organising the fire and the den.
3. Animals or Yetis - you don't light a fire.
4. Aliens - you don't light a fire.
5. Natural phenomena like lightning or ball lightning - the slits strongly suggest that they were watching something. The hot spot suggests a heat source, lightning or ball lightning would fit.
You can have cold lightning, synoptic snowstorms can produce it and the most dangerous type positive polarity. Lightning is produced by friction of atmospheric ice. By far the most common cause of this is warm moist air meeting cold air as in classic thunderstorms but it isn't the only cause and there may be causes that aren't properly understood as suggested in the paper i posted below. An explosion, heat and electrocution explain all the facts of the dpi case other than radiation which i assume to be from contamination with ground sources.
No new theories ?
Whether alien visitation is real or not i don't see a connection with the dpi.
The two events (cedar and ravine) could have been due to a single lightning strike, see - https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=multiple+lightning+strikes&view=detailv2&&id=F2A9BCAC986B61E87315FDAB7D1DF520DC019B61&selectedIndex=16&ccid=iqmaSbU0&simid=608052041959866622&thid=OIP.M8aa99a49b534f0f9712ba5aa7cf28fe1o0&ajaxhist=0
or google "multiple lightning strikes"
i.e. the primary path was in the ravine and a secondary path hit two people at the cedar attracted by the stream of ionised particles rising from the fire.
The den in the ravine had seats made out of branches but interestingly there were only four. Presumably for the four that died there. So this infers that the group split into two probably due to dissatisfaction with ID's leadership.
For me what's interesting about the missing eyes and tongue is the overlap with "mammalian mutulations". I'm coming to the view that these are due to some form of lightning strike that isn't understood yet. The brazil case has good indicators of a lightning strike. No clothes, serious burns.
If you want to correct something please make another entry with the correct spelling and send me an email to info(at)dyatlovpass.com to delete the wrong entry.
and about Ball lightening Nigel insist
1) it is unlikely
the objects were divided into ''first explosion object and second explosion object''
(that sound like they were alive)
2) the object damaged cedar tree ?
if so, The cedar tree must be damaged by explosion as well as burnt trace.
3) Ball Lightening is not proper to explain the injuries - removed tongue or eye balls .
(any predators don't eat other animals like the way)
there were many witnesses that was related to alien crafts .
Except for foreign countries case, I will say the only incidents that happened in Our country.
3 pilots in South Korea chased hovering skyballs in past time (about 60years before)
one of them said
" I don't think that was a secret weapon made in different country . Because That was too high technology to be made by human .......
that disappeared instantly at tremendous speed when we chased it. "
another case is testified by a old monk on TV
she lived in deep mountain
Oneday, she felt extraordinary at night time ..
Q) Why did you feel extraordinary then ?
A) I reared some animals but the animals started to cry and there was very bright light from door.
Q) What did you see ?
A) Yes, there were red light balls over my yard .
Q) What did you think of the sky balls ??
A) Earlier , I just have no idea on that. but now, I think they were aliens from outer space. I was just scared by them.
Q) Did you see lives in craft ?
A) Yes
Q) How ?
A) Lives came out of the craft through a light. Not stair.
Q) Couldn't they humans ??
A) they weren't human and they did not use any language to communicate with me.
but I could got it . even I can write it on paper using only number 1 and 2 .
She said this "they were kind beings to me, I hope to meet them again. "
So I wanted to build this landing site .
this sites were made by her proposal
(and it is known some ones helped her)
http://pds13.egloos.com/pds/200901/16/60/a0106360_497048126fe7f.jpg
I believe in lightning theory right now.
But i think the lightning theory is much better.
I
The image that is related to Yeti is a picture that discovery channel appeared recently.
That's why I do not think it's for me to for yeti's.
@Random: This event could be a lightning bolt, a lightning bolt, a biological weapon. There is doubt about the oldest member of the group.
Finally: I guess this event is exactly what we will never know.
What were the other members of the group writing on their cameras and diaries? Maybe they will explain everything. Only Allah knows.
It's frame no17 from NTB's camera. It has spawned the yeti theory but as the author of this site points out there are tracks between the camera and the figure, probably one of the party went to the toilet and NTB took a photo as a joke. Pity he didn't get a better focus to silence the yeti theorists....
Thibeaux-Brignolle camera :
http://dyatlovpass.com/camera-thibeaux-brignolle
http://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Thibeaux-Brignolle-camera-film3-17.jpg
So SZ and LD eyes are easily explained as predation or freeze/thaw or water erosion or a combination post mortem.
LD swallowed blood before dying so clearly the tongue was injured before or at the fatal event. Best guess is that the blast wave made her bite it badly and that attracted predation.
A wilder theory is that our science knows that lightning produces antimatter which immediately annihilates with normal matter. So it's theoretically possible perhaps that the vacuum phase of the explosion made her draw antimatter across her face and into her mouth. N.B. that there's an overlap in this injury with cattle mutilation and the "human mutilation brazil" case. So i'm just guessing that one day science will find a connection. But probably beyond our lifetimes. But these cases resonate empirically.
Thanks for all the information.
The result: the lightning that killed the Dyatlov climbers.
So, lost tongue, missing eyeballs, what is the explanation for this? Thanks, Nigel.
But not only would the bolt be incredibly bright but it would probably collapse the tent.
http://www.lightning.ece.ufl.edu/PDF/Rakov_2003.pdf
SUMMARY.
Our knowledge of the physics of posi-
tive lightning remains much poorer than that of nega-
tive lightning. Many questions regarding the genesis
of positive lightning and its properties cannot be an-
swered without further research. It is worth noting
that attempts to initiate positive lightning using the
rocket-and-wire technique generally result in dis-
charges that are composed of the initial stage (rela-
tively low-level, long-lasting current component) that
is not followed by positive leader/return-stroke se-
quences. Bipolar lightning is an even less understood
and often unrecognized phenomenon. While some
simple cloud charge distributions, such as a “tilted
dipole,” an “inverted dipole,” or a “positive mono-
pole,” can apparently explain the generation of posi-
tive lightning, the occurrence of bipolar lightning, as
well as complex cloud discharges, suggests that the
cloud charge structure cannot always be described by
simple, vertically stacked charge models. It is likely
that positively and negatively charged regions can
exist at about the same height in the cloud.
But it would be my strong guess that the mixing of ice (and snow?) particles can also have other causes. Just because these causes are rare doesn't make them impossible. E.g. freak wind circulation, downward flow of the jet stream, anomalous electrical ground conditions repelling the air vertically (the region clearly exhibits freak frequency of ball lightning and strong magnetic anomalies).
N.B. my "dpi - lightning theory" can be satisfied by either conventional lightning or ball lightning or a combination of both. Also don't forget that our physics cannot explain ball lightning at all, and there maybe unknown causes of conventional lightning waiting to be found. Dark lightning has only been recently discovered...
I'm currently reading "Dyatlov Pass Keeps Its Secrets" which i can recommend. For me it's a no brainer that the cedar tree and ravine deaths can be most easily explained by electrical discharge at the cedar and an explosion in the ravine. This gives you - burnt hair, burnt clothing, massive leg burn, scattered fragments of burnt clothing, shockwave injuries, serious skull trauma without tissue damage (chunks of flying ice softening in the heat flash and landing on head in snow), heavy bruising, four bodies found in a tight group 6-10 meters from their den.
Everything i read is a fit, except for perhaps the radiation. This would be explained as a red herring, that the contamination was picked up from one of the disused mines that they explored or naturally occurring on the ground. Strontum, trituim etc.
A reminder of a notable fact from the book. SZ was found still holding a diary in one hand and a pencil in the other (this strongly suggests that he didn't travel in the stream later and that the curious clumping was there at the fatal event). Lying there with the extreme pain of a flail chest he was still trying to leave a record of the event for people to find. A professional agent to the very end?
I read in a forum, there are those who say that there can not be a lightning event.
The temperature was -30C (-22F), which is much too cold to allow for any generation of atmospheric lightning. Not sure what happen there, but lightning would have been simply impossible. Yes, lightning can happen during some snowstorms, but in these cases the temperatures are much warmer and near the freezing mark (0C, 32F). This makes a huge difference since convection of ice particles that freeze and melt during the convection cycle is critical for generating the charge.
Well, why don't someone put some microphone on that location and record for 1 full year or more ... maybe got something to hear
In the ravine after the explosion. The strike creates a lot of water vapour as this powerful bolt - 50,000C, 1 million amps, earths down the stream this hot vapour rises until it refreezes. Also the explosion sends a lot of nearby snow (ground and trees) into the air with the wind blowing a lot of it into the ravine, plus snow on the side of ravine slides down.
So four people are buried in snow with three survivors. ID now has a dilemma. RS is clearly injured and needs care. But he doesn't know if the buried four are dead or alive. So as the leader of the group he decides that ZK should accompany RS back to the tent whilst he stays in the ravine hoping for signs of life. It will be part of his training to know that buried under snow you can breathe for approx 30 minutes before the snow near your mouth reaches a concentration of CO2 that kills you. So he sends them back and waits perhaps listening or attempting to dig with his hands. So ZK helps RS back to the tent but the path is uphill in deep snow and very tough. Along the way RS collapses. Being a girl she can't lift or drag him and she is getting weak from cold and the explosion. So she decides to leave him there and if she can get to the tent she could bring warm clothing down to help him. But she succumbs to the cold and conditions (high winds?) 200 meters further uphill. Meanwhile ID decides to abandon his search as he is getting very cold. It's a feature of hypothermia that one of the first stages is mental confusion. So perhaps as good leader he stays too long. Anyway he doesn't get far before the hypothermia overtakes him and he is found displaying classic signs of death by hypothermia, paradoxical undressing and a litre of urine.
May they rest in peace.
They would probably be hot, they would get warm, they would be cooked, why they took each other's clothes and put on themselves ...
Ludymilla's tongue broke off from the lightning bolt.
You also have the opportunity to make an animation of this theory, thanksgiving, thanks @Nigel Evans.
The the two yuris are killed by a weak lightning strike like this - http://www.walterreeves.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/lightning-3.jpg
only in this case the tree trunk is covered in snow and the strike travels outside the bark only damaging the branches. The 2 yuri's are huddled together by the fire, the strike enters YD's head on the right side burning his hair and causing profuse bleeding to the ears, nose and lips. The current crosses over to YK and exits the left leg resulting in a massive edema (31cm).
Then all seven realise that the fire under a tree is unwise and they retreat to the ravine probably on the advice of SZ as this was a WW2 technique to survive the extreme cold. However they haven't realised that if lightning is a threat then the water in the stream is very dangerous as it provides the best earth for more lightning strikes. The strike that kills the four outright is much more powerful than the first one, like this - http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2011/8/22/this-is-what-it-looks-like-when-lightning-strikes.html
n.b. that strike blew a hole three foot deep to find the earth provided by the irrigation line...
This strike doesn't hit any individual but results in a powerful explosion as it instantly vapourises snow, ice, mud etc, paticularly so in the confines of the ravine which amplifies the shockwave. Note in that image that the hole is small relative to the area of grass that is killed. So it fits that most of the "ravine 7" got a good dose of heat changing the colour of their skin as they were blown through the air. Four died and three survived but with injuries and shock.
They pick themselves up and decide to return to the tent. But the explosion has left them substantially weakened and disorientated and they do not make the logical decision to remove shoes and clothing from the deceased. This is possibly due the to heat melting a large area of snow up the sides of the ravine which slides down and covers all of them causing the three still alive to scramble out. Whatever this proves fatal as they return for ZK and ID, RS dies anyway collapsing whilst still warm.
I've no plans to make an animation. The text is sufficient for me.
Lightning strikes in the tent, the mountaineers were troubled, somehow they decided to go to the woods, after which a strong lightning bolt killed them, and some died of hypothermia. is it true ? @ Nige Evans
@Nigel, can you make an animation video of this theory? Thank you.
As far as i know all the evidence can be explained by a combination of ball lightning (frequent occurence in that area - 2 events witnessed within 2 months of the dpi) and lightning strkes (thundersnow can produce the most powerful type - positive polarity).
Or did the Russians make with Tesla's lightning weapon?
I hope you understand? The language problem is seriously bad! (:
ZK's official cause of death is - "hypothermia due to violent accident".
RS - i suggest that he collapsed from shock and his head injury.
ID - clearly died of hypothermia.
Regarding the ravine 4 :-
LD and SZ - flail chests due to shockwave from explosion.
AK - the explosion threw him backwards and he landed on his head, resulting in headwound and a deformed neck.
NTB - the blast threw a projectile that hit him in the head.
The damage to the cedar tree supports the lightning theory. N.B. if the snowstorm was as photographed when they setup camp then they would have no reason to climb the tree as the visibilty would be very limited and they couldn't see the tent anyway.
From this website :-
the soft tissues of both hands and fingers tips are especially dark purple; all fingers and toes are severelly frostbitten. If Yuri Doroshenko would have survived, he would have required an amputation of all his toes and fingers.
@Nigel Evans : Do autopsy doctors not understand lightning strike?
Did you feel a lightning strike, Nigel?
Please ask to learn.
Maybe it's irrelevant, but I'm looking at it, zinaida is well dressed, but how does she get hypothermia and die? The subject still has not reached the solution and it has been about 60 years ...
There is also a detailed video on the scene in this video account, perfect.
The person who shoots the video is walking with the socks and there is no problem ...
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCkU_SsNR7iV2VzEaVSu3ccQ
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thundersnow
"Finally, there is a greater likelihood that thundersnow lightning will have a positive polarity which has greater destructive potential than negatively charged (typical) lightning"
http://wxbrad.com/positive-lightning-why-its-so-dangerous/
"While only 10% of lightning strikes victims die from being hit, most are hit by negative strikes. The percentage of positive strike fatalities is much higher."
Anyone of the three could have spooked them but the cause has to continue to spook them to prevent them from returning afterwards.
So i guess that reduces the probability of a lightning strike in favour of st elmos fire or ball lightning. The 4metre hot spot in front of the tent favours ball lightning imo.
Then the two Yuris are killed by a normal lightning strike.
With the ravine 4 it's not possible to determine whether it's BL or a lightning strike. But either cause creates deaths by an explosion not electrocution. Apparently a LS can generate temperatures 5 times hotter than the surface of the sun. So if that hit the stream in the ravine the water would instantly vapourise creating quite a bang..
The result is lightning strike?
If you cause a lightning strike, will you explain it, why did the tent leave the mountaineers?
Can you give a detailed explanation @ Nigel, Please? Thank's.
Also the strike can have very different effects depending on whether the current travels outside the tree or within it. Wrt to the dpi it would be highly likely that the branches would be snow covered and the the strike would jump from branch to branch resulting in damaged branches but an intact trunk.
It fits that the fire would assist the strike giving off a stream of ionised particles. Then some or all of the discharge would jump from the tree and pass through the people sitting by the fire resulting in electrocution injuries (burns and pulmonary edema).
Being an intelligent group with scientific backgrounds they would realise with hindsight that the tree and the fire were a bad idea and retreat to the ravine but sadly there was another similar event but this time primarily explosive.
So a good explanation for all of the facts would be that the area exhibits static electricity anomalies that combined with the snowstorm encouraged - st elmo's fire/lightning strikes/ball lightning and a combination of these resulted in the dpi.
asrin - excellent article, which closely follows my thinking (and that of Ivanov and the mansi). Provides a good explanation for all the facts.
http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/column.php?id=271057
Best scenario: -
The fact that they closed access for a few years is revealing.
Why,- because of radiation.
The incident happened elsewhere - somewhere on their proper route. That area had high radiation, due to military weapon / UFO.
So they moved the bodies somewhere away from the actual event to confuse things, as well as to protect any search people from high radiation? The pilot observed the tent with bodies, while the soldiers were relocating the group to the radiation free area.
Because of the radiation left on bodies/clothes of group, Lev Ivanov was informed to carry a radiation detector.
The fact there is a (damaged) pole at the tent also could be a mistake by the soldiers, or whoever was moving things around. Alternatively it could have been intentionally left by a soldier who was disgusted at what they were doing & who wished to leave a clue as to the lack of authenticity of the scene.
If it hadn't been for Yuri Yakimov revealing the light set events, I would have went with military. But that's too much of a coincidence to happen in this area also. It could be the Mansi reference to mountain has more meaning than we think, going back ages, it could be a sort of 'dimensional' gateway or at least an area where there is more than usual UFO activity. There seem to be certain areas where they are more prevalent. UNQUOTE
I thought about the noise made by explosions but the students who reported the lights on the Chistop Massif were 30 miles away and the wind was blowing away from them carrying the sound. The Mansi settlement at Ushma is closer but still several miles and again the wind is an issue. I also gain the impression that the Mansi were willing to help out but didn’t want to get drawn into any contentious issues. Especially as nine people were dead and the authorities may have been looking to point the finger at someone.
Yes i'll add my comments to the other page.
It's no problem for me if google translate makes communication clumsy. Good ideas are not limited to people who can write in English.
2. the fire is estimated to have burnt for 1.5 hours through 8 cm logs. It seems it was a good campfire. Not an ineffective one as claimed in the youtube video.
5. two members of the group were outside keeping watch. If so it couldn't have been that cold.
But we will have to agree to disagree on the main point of this theory that they would elect to leave food, equipment and clothing (wet clothing is much preferable to less clothing in -20C), and especially their boots, just to go and light a fire in a more sheltered place.
The main question with the dpi mystery is what made them leave everything behind?
I am doing this article with google translation help.
@Nigel Evans You can write your comments on the person who prepared the video (Goruna X) as a comment.
If you have animated dyatlov pass videos, would you like to link here?
I want to look at all of them.
@Nigel Evans: I want to answer your questions.
1) I think after setting the tent, they realized that there was no firewood in the tent and they walked to the forest together, 4 people went to the forest before, they lost their direction and they were wounded.
Others tried to warm up by the fire at the entrance to the forest. The cold influenced the mountaineers' thoughts negatively.
2) I could not understand what you said, sorry. (Google translate inefficiency)
3) I think it was going to go back to the tent by collecting dry wood, and they do not take their clothes to their side and not to be burdened.
But it started to show no effect on the road.
4) This is your opinion, socks can be very strong, wool socks.
As a result they may have made an incorrect decision.
5) I could not understand what you said, sorry. (Google translate inefficiency)
6) The fractures were probably after river side injuries.
As a result, I think this theory tells a big part of the story, but maybe not the whole story.
I write the conversations with google translate, sorry.
Thoughts :-
1. if it was an orderly retreat from the tent due to cold and wet then why didn't they take their three axes and food and some alcohol
2. the fire was relatively successful burning branches upto 8cm thick (estimated at 1.5 hours duration).
3. if the clothing was too wet to wear why not take it with them to dry by the fire?
4. i find it impossible to believe that they prefered walking in socks in say -20C instead of putting their wet boots on. These are intelligent people with alpine training.
5. the indications are that two members of the group were outside keeping watch. If so it couldn't have been that cold.
6. the pathologist is very specific about the cause of the fractures - high energy trauma "like from a car accident or the shockwave from a bomb". No broken limbs, collar bones etc but flail chests where the rib cage has been partly snapped vertically three times? I don't see how a collapsed snow cave could create this profile of injuries.
I turn just following theory to the Dyatlov to discusion:
The disaster happened in two parts, without any foreign influence:
The first part was a drug experiment of the five members (Rustem Slobodin, Yuri Doroshenko, Yuri Krivonischenko, Igor Dyatlov and Zinaida Kolmogorova) at the edge of the forest under the pine tree.
Possibly, with the help of psychedelic substances, a "shamanistic" experience at the campfire would be made.
This was either done with the help of regional mushrooms or LSD-derivatives, which may have been brought along, as well. (I do not know whether gastric contents or blood were examined 1959 ?!)
In both cases there was probably a certain contamination and/or overdosing in the game,
Which, in addition to the horrortrip, also leads to an accelerated cooling (by a centralization shock, possibly in combination with the "paradoxical undressing"
In addition, in this type trip often flight-fantasies occur, which would clarify the climbing of the tree.
I also can not exclude a conscious undressing to intensify the "natural experience".
Also not untypical would be the search for the little melting creek for the purpose of "purification" or thirst quenching or the desire to neutralize in case of poisoning-phenomena.
Part two: When the first group suddenly realized that there was something extraordinary going on the way, Dyatlov, Kolmogorova and Slobodin wanted to reach the (possibly nothing anticipating or sleeping) rest of the group (Lyudmila Dubinina, Alexander Kolevatov, Nikolai Thibeaux-Brignolle and Semyon Zolotaryov).
These, who were taken aback by the sleep very surprised and panicked, as someone was screaming or was busy at the entrance of the tent (possibly blocked by snow drift too),
now fled down to the edge of the forest by slitting the side tent, where they found the other members of the "drug group" were probably in a corresponding condition.
This led either to further panic-like flight or uncontrolled searches for some aid in the direction of forest natures, downhill.
They crashed into the snowy canyon with corresponding crash injuries such as fractures and tongue bites.
Eyes by two members in my opinion were lost postmortal by animals or putrescence.(Zolotaryov and Dubinina were found over 2 months after accident !)
Whether the drug experiment was planned from the beginning, or even "sponsored" by some circles or even commanded, or simply developed on a whim, remains speculative of course.
The only surviving member, the tour-departed Yuri Judin has probably never said (?).
The framework conditions were, in my opinion, fit in any case;
9 young adventurous, experience-seeking students at a time of emerging "mind-expending" substances in a solitary, mystical area..........
S.J.M.
Best Theory...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbIqsK8KG-E
N.B. the pathologist ruled out falling as a cause of the fractures, and as the photos show these serious injuries have no surface tissue damage. An explosion is the best explanation.
bad experiment.
I am not sure but the thought of 9 or 10 people being covered with tons of snow in a collapsed tent could be a compelling reason to exit immediately
You make a good point regarding the size of the tent but my guess is that :-
a. modern materials permit much more tent room than in 1959, so the space was limited to the weight.
b. the siberian winter nights are long and would allow enough time for two groups to rotate usage. It would have been wise to keep a watch for wild animals (wolves) so i could imagine that they have at least two men outside overnight probably with a fire. Indeed the footsteps in the snow suggest that was the case when they fled the tent (but no fire).
I think they were on the open ground beyond the trees to gain height for the following day. From memory their plan was to execute a three day circular hike returning to the base camp where they had left the food for the return journey. So the purpose of the camp that night was to achieve the altitude in order to make good distance the following day.
So the main question for me remains the size of the tent.
Nowhere in the photos is not seeing them spend the night and eating. Supposedly, they were experienced mountaineers. If I was a dress code for the disco (Dubinina) so I froze way. At least 10 days' journey in the mountains of Siberia, have too small backpacks. Most of the contents of a sleeping bag and mat and spare stuff. Where is the food for 10 people for 10 days? Tube tent to me is exhausting moisture, as would the tent is frozen and probably even suffocated. I have many theories, but one of radioactivity into contact just come and Kovalov employee was allegedly nuclear research. I believed in a version of infrasound, but it unfortunately falls, because they do not know how 9 people with backpacks, fits into the tent 4x1,8 meters. It is impossible. 6x4 meters ideal for 9 (10) persons.
So there is a version with transfer of radioactive material in the tent and never slept, because there will not fit. So where to sleep? How much did the dishes? Experienced mountaineer knows the counting and would have stayed down in the woods, or went behind the ridge. Pitch a tent there on top is illogical. The tent is obviously old and patched and most importantly is installed between the trees. Up there he fell on them. They would have to build a wall of snow and skis anchor the tent. Maybe the tent fell on them at night in a mad wind, but it applies to someone explain to me and understand that I never found that nobody cares how could fit 10 people into the tent 4 x 1.8 meters and with backpacks,.
Maybe we can not understand, because it never happened. Please views on the size of the tent vs 10 people.
I would also like to add: Bigfoot does not exist. He yeti wearing dark pants, a light jacket and dark gloves? (This is seen in the photo) Does your neck? Of course, it is a member of the expedition and a hooded and therefore has no neck. If the text is found in the tent that Bigfoot exists, it could be evidence of fraud or message to someone that their actions came out to surrender. Further, I also do not understand how they can film in cameras in 1959, survive in Siberia in the cold under the snow and to be quite ok.
The main question remains: how to fit 10 people into the tent and backpacks, with pipe measuring 4 x 1.8 m. This also applies to the previous stations down in forests. It's good to see the size and age of the tent and the people around him. Such tents would need 3 and not 1
Why someone is in deep winter on Siberian mountain in the middle of winter? Why not go in the summer when they were hikers? Sea issues, but without explaining how they went into the tent, not worth continuing. In addition to the mountain appoint Mountain of the Dead just for fun. It has a reason. Maybe there Mansove bury the dead, and they disrupted their cemeteries. That mark on the tree clearly indicates that it is their territory. Maybe they did, or shaman actually a story with Yetti invented to make people afraid to go there. Whole Mansovy understand. They want to have peace.
1. "Snowmen exist" - probably part of the folkore that springs up. E.g. the mansi give a hill the name "Dead Mountain" meaning there's nothing up there to hunt and this get converted into "Mountain of the Dead".
2. Parachute mines - this could explain a lot of the facts but evidence would be left (parachutes?) and Ivanov would not have given an interview later in life were he admitted his belief that it was the fireballs and facts directly supporting this were removed from the report.
3. Radiation - in the dim light of the morgue the staff reported that parts of the clothing had a purple glow. One theory is that they had visited abandoned mines on the trip and contaminated their clothing there. However that would presumably have resulted in alpha radiation not the beta that was found. Also a water test suggested that the original contamination could have been much higher.
4. Knives - the knive used to exit the tent and collect firewood was never found. They left hand axes in the tent.
5. Den - they didn't dig it. They just arranged branches in the floor of the ravine to shelter from the wind. There are indications of very high winds.
6. Don't think the body is relevant to the dpi.
7. There was another hiking group in the area a week later that witnessed "a light in the sky". Igor Dyatlov was training to be an alpine master and the leading the hike would raise his ranking. So not so unusual perhaps, permission had to be sought for the trip and a one member was refused and SZ substituted for him.
I visited a few sites to try and get a view from all angles and theories. This site is nice since you can see the photos and medical information, plus the diary excepts is interesting.
1. "Snowmen exist" is mentioned elsewhere on the Internet but is not found in the English translation of the diary on this site. Several articles include the quote but the translation on this site makes me think this quote is false/fake. There is nothing in the diary translation that would hint at "snowmen exist" either. Could the author of the site confirm this on the diary page for future visitors?
2. Wikipedia (not a useful source, I know) has an interesting theory of parachute mines but this site doesn't mention it. Unfortunately there is no source cited on wikipedia for the parachute mine theory, but it is interesting none the less. It is mentioned that there was metal debris around the tent but nothing specific as to what kind of metal (size, shape) and if the metal could've belong to the hikers.
3. Speculation: The radiation on the shirt/pants seems like they were trying to use the lamp (as noted elsewhere the lamp had radiation elements within it) to keep themselves warm. The radiation reports indicate lower shirt/wrist / upper pants/waist, so perhaps the lamp was being kept near the waist or cuddled around?
4. I was curious as to the amount of cut marks in the tent photos. It looks as if multiple people were trying to cut the side of the tent. Was there any evidence found indicating what cutting tools were used? I believe it was said one person had a knife on their belt/carabiner. Were any of the cutting tools found outside of the tent or not on a person (like the flashlight)?
5. Was there any indication of tools used to dig out the "den"? Did they dig it out with their hands?
6. There was a report released by RT in January 2016 about a new body being discovered near the pass. After some research, it may be a hermit / homeless person that lived in a nearby town, however there is little information about him. It would be interesting to know when he died (if it was recent or closer to the death of the hikers) and why he was in that area to begin with.
7. Something that is curious to me is if this was a typical hike for people in the area? How many hikers in that era would've made the hike to the mountain each year? This information could give a "sample size" to show how many people hike in that location (ie. many = this incident is unique; few = this incident is stranger), or another sample is has this happened elsewhere in the world (ie. people suffering similar deaths while hiking in the winter). At least such data would give a reference point to better evaluate how strange this event was (typical or not).
However, I was a soldier, have medical experiences and educations in technology and radiology. I read many about this case and like everybody seem this case almost to solve, but nevertheless does not fit. Always close, but then there is another argument. Traces, radiology, injuries, some behavior of the members is right, some not. Which investigations are right? Which doubtful?
When somebody sees any lights in the sky and hear about radiology in combination with a strange incident we have immediately extraterrestrial, military or strange nature items in our heads. But in almost every strange case which has solved it was…surprise…the people for themselves.
The investigations are insufficient. Some examples. Radiology on clothes at this time is not unusual. In this time were some x-ray exams made with clothes. Some clothes were produced with radiology-included colors. The investigation of the traces is absolutely unbelievable. What was the real cause of death of the members especially the ravine group. Three of them had the most injuries (pressure-injuries) and they were under 4 meters of snow? They were lying in a creek month of melting snow-waters. The branches of the cedar were cut in the direction of the tent. If I want climb on a tree to look in a direction I cut the branches on the other side (example: slobodin’s picture frame nr.5). I want escape from a tent and nobody try to pull the buttoned entrance, everybody search first for the knife to destroy the only habitation that would save my life (and if just later)? And why this extrem big hole? In a case of emergency with 7 or 9 people the most would use the hole of the precursor. It would be faster. And then I go without rush to the woods? The cuts in eye-level are in the escape-direction? I would flee off the danger.
What is right what is wrong?
The first question I have: If I were in a tent with 7 or 9 people, what have to happened to rip the tent in this big size of one side?
Right, it could be an emergency incident. Maybe a defective oven. Maybe a threat from outside.
The next question should to be: was the tent already collapsed and is this maybe the reason for the big hole? In a collapsed tent it is hard to find the exit, it is dark, I am afraid, there is a threat inside or outside…a good reason for all members to destroy the tent in the length. But the cuts are straight from to bottom, sign for a not collapsed tent.
Several members cut a intact tent at the same time in one direction and all stroll without rush in the forest the most without sufficient clothes. Why? There are only two reasons:
The danger is absolute directly or there were forced.
And here the hamster begins to hobble:
2 theories, 2 ways:
Way one:
If the danger is directly why they went without rush to the woods?
Is the danger only in the range of the tent and they could not went back?
Which kind of danger could that be?
Way two:
If there were forced why did they destroy the tent?
Were they forced to destroy the tent too?
And why did they destroy it from the inside?
Was the danger from the inside?
Was the danger a member of the group or another person?
If I combine the Theories:
Was the threat a member of the group or another person, forced them to destroy the tent or did his himself and hound the others away or in the direction of the forest? Maybe in rage and regardless the lack of clothes?
Is this a start of a fight first for clothes then for survive?
I think it is important to find out what is happened in the tent. At the photos we see a good mood and atmosphere until the last day. The last day the weather was badly and they had to put up the tent in deep snow and a slope. Maybe the atmosphere had turned.
If I leave out all the doubtful results of the investigations I see 9 young people, 7 male, 2 female, well trained for this trip, but in some faces not complete seriousness. I see a lot of fun. I see a lot of young power. I see many injuries of fight with hands. I believe to see an incredible tragedy caused of emotions of young people.
I don't think you've properly understood what the pathologist is saying. The strength and transient nature of the force rules out many other causes. The easiest explanation is barotrauma from an explosion. LD's rib cage was cracked twice in the upper right hand side but not cracked in the lower half at all. Do you understand what sort of force is strong enough to start cracking the ribs twice but not for long enough to reach the lower half? It was strong, local and highly transient. You can't reproduce this with a rifle butt or stamping etc etc. Plus there was no tissue damage anyway.
Here's your link
http://dyatlovpass.com/theories
Scroll down to UFO.
but you still keep insisting
the pathologist was comparing only the power to car crash or bomb but which did not mean they died of car crash or bomb
and Ivanov did not say the ball was ball lightening phenomenon. give me link
To repeat my case :-
The pathologist stated that the flail chests required very specific forces such as in a car accident or (and this is the crucial point) "like from the shockwave of a bomb". N.B. he ruled out falling. So this and the unusual number of dead birds points strongly at an explosion.
Then you have eye witness reports a week later of a light in the sky followed by two explosions.
Other evidence is burnt tree tops, burnt people, local beliefs, radioactivity, skin colour possibly due to radiation.
All of this fits with historical accounts of ball lightning wth the exception of radiation.
So it's no brainer really. That's why Ivanov had to choose it.
Even the gap between australopitecus and modern human is calculated only about 3 millions years . (argon date)
the number is a little in the universe. There are tremendous amount of star systems billions ahead of ours ..
but I agree with your opinion.
when we solve unexplained phenomenon
the first is to consider the result from inner space
the last is to consider the result from outer space
that is right way to solve it.
However my problem with reports of alien contact is the lack of evidence unless the conspiracy theories are to be believed (global government cover-up).
Hence I favour natural phenomena that science cannot as yet explain, together with hallucination, the latter possibly a result of the former...
(though it have been known radioactive was sometimes detected around those sites where aliens were reported)
if we exclude it , it is hard to explain in right logic
and said close one '' the sky ball would be spaceship or natural phenomenon or new weapon . ''
he would know what happened then. about mystery of the incident.
1960 and 1990 are very different age on science.
He could think somethings more than then..
I am thinking now.. whether the balls are artificial force or natural force.
It have been know Ivanov maybe could have some photos that weren't announced on public
(Zolotarev, probably, took 19 shots. The objects seemed to move in the direction of the Pass because the images get bigger. )
It looks like they were sleeping at summer night.
they might die of hypothermia after anesthetized or stunned.
(1) All 9 hikers were attacked by something .
( though specially fatal attack was for Ravine peoples )
(2)6 peoples except for 3 peoples were known to die of hypothermia. but that was just result of physical looks in 1959 medical.
I think there were chemical attack by something.
And yes it could have been murder from within the group but no one survived ... why?
I think it is unlikely
Robs / think no footprints of invader - that would be
why official investigator Ivanov turn his idea from murder(people) to hovering balls .
it cannot be discounted -
500M Site ! their foot prints disappeared or covered with snow .. any information (like photos) ??????
disappear ? or covered with snow ?
Ivanov concluded nobody around the site , the day
So I Research how perfectly the shoes could remove footprints . ( even poles leave sharp trace behind )
I remove the possibility of military.
weird death of some animals , hovering balls. . )
Mansi tribes were afraid of going there.
So, they named it Otorten.
when I watched the videos , I guess injuries of the 9hikers were caused by attack - not while running .
(from tent to ravine)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOVmADGlX2Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qpJi6iNWF0
http://www.viafanzine.jor.br/002imag/03_13/dyatlov4_descanso2.jpg
many scientists explained the globe was flat . but they could not explain why last land had not been discovered .
footprints of 9hikers along 500 meters site from tent .
where ,, why did it evaporate ?
We'll never know the exact sequence or reasons, all we have are the facts, which are :-
1. they fled the tent very quickly.
2. they would not return to the tent preferring to stay by the fire and the den.
3. tree tops were burnt.
4. 2 of them suffered burns.
5. 4 of them died from injuries consistent with an explosion.
6. eye witness accounts describe lights/explosions a week later.
7. the mansi people blamed the golden orbs.
8. an experienced police investigator was forced to agree with them.
so you said it - 2 or more than 2. one was around tent. another was around cedar or ravine.
Right ?
No my theory is they fled the tent to escape the BL there which did not follow until later or it was another one. No chasing down the hill.
These two entries from wikipedia have all of the necessary elements to explain the DPI, BL covering distance to reach group, killing individuals and explosive force. N.B. the mast might have been 20 inches in diameter.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_lightning
The Catherine and Mary
In December 1726 a number of British newspapers printed an extract of a letter from John Howell of the sloop Catherine and Mary:
As we were coming thro’ the Gulf of Florida on 29th of August, a large ball of fire fell from the Element and split our mast in Ten Thousand Pieces, if it were possible; split our Main Beam, also Three Planks of the Side, Under Water, and Three of the Deck; killed one man, another had his Hand carried of [sic], and had it not been for the violent rains, our Sails would have been of a Blast of Fire.[10][11]
The Montague
One particularly large example was reported "on the authority of Dr. Gregory" in 1749:
Admiral Chambers on board the Montague, 4 November 1749, was taking an observation just before noon...he observed a large ball of blue fire about three miles distant from them. They immediately lowered their topsails, but it came up so fast upon them, that, before they could raise the main tack, they observed the ball rise almost perpendicularly, and not above forty or fifty yards from the main chains when it went off with an explosion, as great as if a hundred cannons had been discharged at the same time, leaving behind it a strong sulphurous smell. By this explosion the main top-mast was shattered into pieces and the main mast went down to the keel.
Five men were knocked down and one of them very bruised. Just before the explosion, the ball seemed to be the size of a large mill-stone.[2]
1. the distance between tent and ravine is shorter than I thought .
2. terrain angle is gentle ..
So, they (attacker and escaper) might watch easily the lights- each others possessed . . . . . .
It is unlikely their ribs broken happened by falling into ravine .
(( there were much snow piled on gentle terrain. )
and I recommend peoples here watch this video - some Russian investigators walking along hikers 's pass ( from the tent site to the last ravine site ) .
Nigel guess they got ribs broken by BL .. after that,, some eyeballs removed by scavengers .
If eyeballs,tongue were not removed by scavengers in nature,
the force must be artificial force.
i think this is very important. to say whether ravine 4 got the injury by mistake or by attack.
they clearly were frightened by something around their exit.
and you claim something is ball lightening.
1) there have been such BL phenomenon reported that fly with group ?
- Witnesses said a group of balls hovering
2) if BL chased the hikers , why did BL give them time ? (this sounds unlikely)
-It took time for them to make a fire , dig a den......
you explain it as a physics .
BL have electronic and life have electronic. so the hikers were chased by BL.
I assume the balls could wander around the tent.
that is why they watched out and did not come back in sever weather.
and it might be possible there re-appeared around cedar there was ,at least, 2th attack around ravine.
# About Eyeballs , tongue removed .
I don't think the injuries happened by the scavenger.
(I like to watch nature documentary, book or article..
that is one of hobbies of me)
I wonder which life eat other life like those way. . . ? ? ? ? ? ?
Investigators have to mention the cause as this injuries are important.
They would know those weren't caused by scavengers bite. ( at least , there were microscopes in 1959. though they were poor compared to now)
Rib theories :-
1. Ball lightning - A week after the deaths eye witnesses saw a light moving through the sky and subsequently reported two explosions. Historical accounts of BL include substantial explosive force. So this was the bomb that the pathologist suggested.
2. The local mansi have a hallucinogenic mushroom (fly agaric?) that assists them jumping high in rituals. However these injuries are consistent with falling 60 feet so they'd have to be jumping high!
3. Military accident during exercise - unlikely because it would have (a) been reported so no need for an investigation (police / kgb teams on site for three months) or b) explosive device would have left some fragments.
An unusual number of dead birds (white grouse) were found around the ravine. An explosion is the best theory to explain the rib fractures and hence the skull fractures.
Nigel, the cause of the tongue injury is speculative, but I have not heard a theory about the ribs so far. I know what could cause it, but who inflicted it and how. i think even Rakitin doesn't explain that.
Yes you're echoing the pathologists report that the injuries required substantial energy like in a car crash or the shockwave from a bomb, his words.
But LD did lose her top lip as well as the tongue so it could be natural causes via predation, a theory being that she bit it hard in the "event", swallowed a little blood before dying, predation from something with a low consumption rate doing the rest.
I had similar injury - flail chest with lung contusion http://distal-humerus.com/resources/320/gallery/2012-07-24-X-Ray-chest.jpg
They drained my right lung for 10 days - it was a pulp. My prognosis was dim.
Dubinina had twice as much broken ribs but she didn't drown in her own blood because a broken rib pierced her heart.
The cause of death is stated as hemorrhage into right atrium of the heart, multiple fractured ribs and internal bleeding
More interesting is that there were 100 g of coagulated blood in her stomach which means she swallowed after her tongue was ripped out.
Photos of Lyudmila from the morgue clearly show that there is no damage to the mouth, nose, ears or other soft tissues. If the body was devoured by scavengers, insects or even fish in the water these would be the first parts of the body that would show signs of damage.
Accidentally killed in a military exercise would be reported and there would no need for an investigation. Plus no foot prints found.
It has to be murder or natural force of some kind. If murder then the murderers tried to look after them first.....
and where have soldiers footprint gone ?
they did not resist but just run urgently , did not come back before death.. Though soldiers seemingly did not shot them, why they were so scared ??????????
and personally i cannot understand the situation - why there were no footprint of soldiers.
soldiers would give them time to leave from the site. or soldiers would arrest them to investigate about why they were there or what goal they had or how they got to know the site.
as at night as at day .
it could make tree top burnt
9Mansi also killed in past time. (even except for 9 killed by airplane accident)
that made me think militant possibility is high . . .
and burnt tree at top remind me of illuminating shell
illuminating shell was used when we did war training . this photo - http://www.timesofisrael.com/rocket-or-mortar-shell-fired-from-gaza-at-israel/
I was a soldier. (all men in our country have duty on military)
Where i was on duty was around border line.
(our country was divided by war . long time before)
There is tension along the border (in military zone)
-Usual citizens banned from entering the zone.
if someones are found in the zone,
1-soldiers would warn them go out . if they don't obey the order, we report it to our senior.. waiting for order.
or when they extremely resist with weapon, soldiers can shot with militant gun.
that is usual way.
Military is the organism run by order.
i thought the possibility of military was high. because the force seemed to be very strong.
9 peoples (containing 7 guys) couldn't think any resistant with only panic.
Even tent torn in sever cold.
the force must be very strong.
That they fled the tent and then lit a fire instead of returning to the tent rules out a lot of possibilities.
EITHER
a) fleeing a natural force that remained at the tent after they had reached the trees.
OR
b) prisoners of something/someone that insisted they leave the tent without footwear but let them light a fire and strip the first two in order to stay warm and build a den in the shelter of the ravine. But then killed them....
I'll stick with a)
But then killed them....
But the photo taken really in last time would be zolotaryov's. it might be real reason why ravine 4 were attacked. he would take a surprising photo. ( he protect his camera around his neck. )
injuries happened by their accident.
it make the incident easier.
Chaser and Runner at night.
(but , footprint of chaser around tent ?? )
but when i communicated wih you, rather i thought it .
if i discount some arguement,
Robs opinion is heard logic to me .
In other words, Everyone might have made simple incident so complex.
(we are just talking about that .. watching photo , but they watched real injury)
(2)Ivanov concluded no one around the day and the site.
(but you Robs guess it - by human)
(3) I read medical report - ravine 4 died earlier than others
(i will check out again)
(4) It seems that Ivanov the investigator consider burnt tree as a point. but a member of soviet congress forced him not to talk about that.
(but Robs discount flying ball)
(5) radioactive
Not denying that they weren't there but I don't think they chased the 9 and killed them. The injuries i have 2 opinions, 1. They fell into the Ravine which caused crushing injuries, they were attacked by persons unknown.
so,, How can you explain hovering balls ? or both of you think that is not relative with this incident ?
how they left those injury - like car crush ?
but I ask you another question - if there is an example of lighting ball in group type.
(allegedly witnesses saw a group of hovering balls)
even i doubt if there were snails around Siberia mountain stream in winter .
The pathologist did not offer any opinion as the loss of her tongue. No one knows how it went.
And a bolide doesn't help explain :-
1. eye witness accounts of many subsequent explosions for minutes afterwards (like cannonfire).
2. eye witness accounts of a large change in direction.
3. earthquake lights (from memory before and after the event) - daylight at midnight in parts of Europe.
That's just off the top of my head.
I'm glad you are 99% certain that CM isn't caused by BL. Other people aren't so sure
Ufo web sites are full of reports of bodies being found in remote places (e.g. google Unit 58) but you've got to believe in conspiracy theories to accept their case. If like me you don't then you would have to widen the time span. If you say how many recorded cases of fatalities in the last 500 years are due to BL i would guess at dozens maybe three figures, and that's where eye witnesses survive of course. Just because something is infrequent doesn't lessen it's suitability as an explanation of the dpi.
A example of this is that someone has asked the question "how many people have been killed by meteorites in recorded history?" and the answer maybe 1000, apparently the ancient Chinese have records going back thousands of years. One guy (1800s?) was recorded as being hit in the chest as if shot from a rifle. Don't think he'd be consoled by the infrequency of the event...
Expert -
Q. If it was natural phenomenon,
where did eyes or tongue disappear ?
A. I've answered this before, predation, e.g. water snails can be carnivorous.
Q. why did not they call others... hiding self from something ?
A. Who are they going to call in the middle of a siberian forest? Ghostbusters?
Q. why did Soviet cover up a natural phenomenon ?
A. It wasn't covered up, it was diluted to *unknown and compelling force" and the soviet authorities closed the area for three years to investigate. This was Soviet Russia where civil servants got arrested and shot for telling the truth.
Imo there are a number of phenomena that seem to be explainble (at leat in part) as due to a "geo motor effect" (BL, Tunguska, cattle mutilations), i.e. some as yet unknown (but probably based on electro magnetism) physics where there seems to be some interaction between the earth's magnetism and atmospheric static electricity, possbly compounded by solar wind activity (latitude=60). This interaction seems to create localised massless energy that persists for a limited time. These events are infrequent but can repeat at certain locations possibly due to the prevalence of suitable conditions within the ground and latitude.
But regarding the DPI :-
1. They fled the tent by the close proximity of BL at or near the entrance.
2. The "campfire two" deaths have multiple possible explanations, fall from tree plus lost conscious whilst unattended and falling too close to the fire (burns, charring) or electrocution from BL. Imo the proximity of the den to the campfire suggests that the remaining seven saw no threat and hence that leans against BL so probably natural causes.
3. The remaining group (all 7) are in the ravine when the same BL at the tent or a new event moves towards them scorching tree tops. It then explodes (a known feature of BL) with great force and heat, killing four of them immediately (injuries consistent with explosion trauma) or they expired shortly afterwards, LD bit her tongue in the explosion and had time to swallow blood, the wound subsequently attracting predation. The explosion kills a significant number of birds roosting in the trees nearby.
4. The remaining three are the hardest to explain, all seem to be returning to the tent but expire in a close grouping. ID has clear signs of hypothermia, but the other two less so. The overnight temperature in the area in general was -20C and it is estimated that on the mountain it would have been closer to -30C. And of course there could have been some other reduction of temperature connected with BL? If the BL was giving off heat it could have created a localised artificial wind, reducing the local temperature in the immediate vicinity (that cold spot is ribbed a sign of high winds). I have a memory of reading a report from local mansi of extremely high winds that night, this contradicting the official weather reports..
So best guess is that the explosion weakened them, they were exposed to extreme cold (possibly supercold?), they could have suffered radiation exposure that the autopsies missed (radiation was found on their clothing but could have been picked up from exploring disused mines) and this resulting in them expiring at a similar time.
5. As to the question - "why would the BL be attracted to groups of people, well human beings are electrical systems rich in metal compounds so perhaps the answer lies there (but we don't know). BL accounts clearly describe how it interacts with metal (follows overground, underground cables etc.). Or the ravine could slightly closer to underground metal deposits than the rest of the ground, etc etc etc.
Daniel - any explanation of BL has to account for it's mobility over potentially many miles, see my BBC link below. Specifically wrt the dpi - formation at altitude in the clouds, travelling through the sky (for many miles?) slowly descending to ground level. It's fascinating stuff, one account describes how BL appeared within a passenger jet, exited harmlessly through the pressurised fuselage and then bounced along the wing perpendicular to the airstream (approx 400mph). If you're interested in more accounts Paul Sagan's - Ball Lightning A Paradox of Physics, is a cheap source of hundreds of eye witness accounts mainly from the scientists, engineers and military at Oak Ridge Labs - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oak_Ridge_National_Laboratory
My opinion is that indeed the all nine people had to do with an extraordinary phenomenon involving (in my opinion) an atmospheric electricity process. A large-scale electrical discharge (a unique plasma discharge) generated by landscape configuration and tectonic plates stress in the area. In laboratory simulation, high-intensity electrical discharges (see Dense Plasma Focus device - https://lppfusion.com/fusion-power/dpf-device/ ) are associated with X, gamma radiation, heat release and other effects. To see if indeed the environment in that area can create large scale electrical discharges with unique features you need to have some measurement devices (voltmeter, amperemeter, magnetometer)and patience. The process is cyclical.
I have a description of this hypothetical process - I could send it in pdf format?
Thank you,
Daniel
apparently you can generate one in your microwave - http://jlnlabs.online.fr/plasma/gmr/
Some interesting details though that i haven't heard of before :-
1. a cold spot near the tent due to a heat source melting the snow and refreezing. This ould be freeze thaw from the sun but the situation doesn't seem to fit that possibility.
2. An unusual number of dead birds found in the area by the rescue party. An explosion would explain that of course.
3. The snow that covered the ravine four was four meters deeps and very solid (frozen) requiring a lot of digging. The depth could be due to drifts but this doesn't explain the solidity. But both the depth and solidity can be easily explained due to a heat source melting the snow on the sides of the ravine that then slid down over the bodies and then refroze...
(I don't believe in Yeti. there is little possibility but I can't discount it in this incident.)
she was climbing stone in stream ( though it was very cold winter )
and she was discovered in that pose
- she would be alive with removed eyeballs .
but started to chase them after some time.
2.They did not call each other after scattered
- it mean they tried to hide oneself from something.
I am saying that wasn't any natural force.
On the place where the tent was made ,a Viewer could see every light. If something was artificial force, it seems that the force could see every light the students made. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AIDi2udwl8
( 4:36 view )
can be translated online. Go to google translate and copy and paste the link in the left hand side and then click on the right hand side.
Lots of discussion there (58 pages!). Imo the avalanche theory can be discounted because it doesn't explain why they clearly avoided returning to the tent to get boots and clothing even after two had died.
http://www.climbing.ru/forum/all/topic_1534/
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-37843273
This led me to google Will-o-the-wisp and find links were people (in previous centuries) have captured the lights and the material producing them describing it as luminescent frogspawn that quickly degrades to a whitish, grayish foam. Note the report on YD....
The Great Thunderstorm of Widecombe-in-the-Moor
Another early description was reported during the Great Thunderstorm at a church in Widecombe-in-the-Moor, Devon, in England, on 21 October 1638. Four people died and approximately 60 were injured when, during a severe storm, an 8-foot (2.4 m) ball of fire was described as striking and entering the church, having nearly destroyed it. Large stones from the church walls were hurled into the ground and through large wooden beams. The ball of fire allegedly smashed the pews and many windows, and filled the church with a foul sulfurous odour and dark, thick smoke.
Also the sentence - " By this explosion the main top-mast was shattered into pieces and the main mast went down to the keel.". Is talking about a section of the mast being shattered that could be 70 feet long and 21 inches in diameter. That's a significant explosion imo, i wouldn't want to be in a ravine with that going off over my head...
1. strong explosion capable of shattering rib cages "like a shockwave from a bomb".
2. burns.
3. burnt treetops.
The Catherine and Mary
In December 1726 a number of British newspapers printed an extract of a letter from John Howell of the sloop Catherine and Mary:
As we were coming thro’ the Gulf of Florida on 29th of August, a large ball of fire fell from the Element and split our mast in Ten Thousand Pieces, if it were possible; split our Main Beam, also Three Planks of the Side, Under Water, and Three of the Deck; killed one man, another had his Hand carried of [sic], and had it not been for the violent rains, our Sails would have been of a Blast of Fire.[10][11]
The Montague
One particularly large example was reported "on the authority of Dr. Gregory" in 1749:
Admiral Chambers on board the Montague, 4 November 1749, was taking an observation just before noon...he observed a large ball of blue fire about three miles distant from them. They immediately lowered their topsails, but it came up so fast upon them, that, before they could raise the main tack, they observed the ball rise almost perpendicularly, and not above forty or fifty yards from the main chains when it went off with an explosion, as great as if a hundred cannons had been discharged at the same time, leaving behind it a strong sulphurous smell. By this explosion the main top-mast was shattered into pieces and the main mast went down to the keel.
Five men were knocked down and one of them very bruised. Just before the explosion, the ball seemed to be the size of a large mill-stone.[2]
HMS Warren Hastings
An English journal reported that during an 1809 storm, three "balls of fire" appeared and "attacked" the British ship HMS Warren Hastings. The crew watched one ball descend, killing a man on deck and setting the main mast on fire. A crewman went out to retrieve the fallen body and was struck by a second ball, which knocked him back and left him with mild burns. A third man was killed by contact with the third ball. Crew members reported a persistent, sickening sulfur smell afterward.[13][14]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_lightning
N.B. most ufo sightings are probably ball lightning.
I'm only interested in sticking to the facts.
One of the most important facts is that (as said before) they urgently left the tent but then lit a fire a little time afterwards.
This narrows down the possibilities considerably to either natural but non intelligent force, or prisoners and subsequently murdered.
The "murdered prisoner" theory doesn't really fit with the facts whilst the natural force theory fits quite well with what is known about ball lightning, the mansi beliefs in "golden orbs" and eye witness accounts of lights very near to the date of the incident.
That's why Ivanov an experienced police investigator favoured it.
N.B. bl is famous for passing through walls, airplane fuselages without leaving any mark. So the bl theory for the dpi could include a fireball entering the tent.
Imo there's no need to link ball lightning with ufo = aliens, bl is almost certainly a natural phenomenon that our science is yet to explain.
The attack of Military or Extraterrestrial
Something was coming towards tent exit.
Or .. ..
They were listening to threaten sound(like gun shooting sound)
They were listening to threatening sound (like gun shooting sound )
They thought their urgent weapon ( knife , ass ) were useless to something.
They choose ''just run ''
Something would stay near tent, which would made them not come back
The distance between tent and them is over 1.5 km.
But it seems that they could watch something because something stayed in bright light.
i don't think something was Yuri Yudin . because investigators already would suspect and investigate him on what he then did or where he then stayed.
And if he was killer, he would steel clues like diary, camera.
As for having a camera cocked, yes that is one of the first things you are taught to not waste film but eventually you do for quick shooting also you can load film carefully to get an extra few frames so really there is nothing unusual about that fact.
1. Their boots were stacked in the front corner inside the tent but something made them flee into -25C so quickly (by slitting the tent open in the diagonally opposite corner) that they didn't (couldn't?) pick them up.
2. But this something didn't curtail lighting a fire 1500 meters away. Imo this considerably narrows the possible causes to :-
2a. prisoners of persons that didn't leave any detectable footprints.
2b. a perceived danger but not one with intelligence (human or animal), that would detect the fire and come after them.
N.B. the numerous slits in the tent together with a camera on a tripod and SZ's secret camera favours (2b) imo. They were observing something.
3. The victims of weapon testing testing theory is counter to the facts. The soviet authorities investigated the case very thoroughly. Ivanov's police team was complemented by a KGB team, alpine experts and helicopters. Some of the dpi group had worked in top secret establishments and SZ was almost certainly a KGB "minder", so defection was a worry for the state, but all that effort is hardly necessary if the state already knew the cause. It is possible that the expense was to ensure that all the bodies were accounted for (no defection) but the ravine four took three months to discover which makes the case that the authorities could have just waited for the spring thaw if they already knew the cause. I find it easy to say that it was not weapons testing.
4. If so it was either a "natural force" or murder. The injuries of the ravine 4 are very difficult to explain as murder. LD's rib cage on the RHS has two fracture lines under the armpit but none in the lower half. The pathologist's opinion seems reasonable that this profile is of strong and localised kinetic energy such as a car accident or the shockwave from a bomb. SZ's injuries are very similar in this regard, his rib cage on the RHS breaking along two seperate lines, imo this fits better with a single event (explosion) than two seperate murder events. As said below the lack of bruising can be explained by the cold and LD's tongue and stomach blood can be explained by her biting her tongue badly, swallowing some blood as she died with the wound attracting predation (e.g. water snails). However the completeness of the tongue removal including supporting muscle echoes one of the injuries found in cattle mutilations - "empty mouth cavity". A pity the pathologist didn't go into more detail here.
5. Although the pathologist recorded most of the other deaths as hypothermia this is contrary to modern opinion (full bladder) and only ID displays the classic symptoms. YD and YK could have died from afterflow but that still leaves RS and ZK as "warm when they stopped moving", RS had a skull fracture but ZK is the hardest to explain.
6. YK had a massive burn on his lower left leg and foot (30cm x 10cm). This could be due to several reasons, loss of conciousness when too close to the fire, torture but also electrocution.
7. It was observed by the rescue party that tree tops were burnt.
8. The rescue party observed "lights" and reliable eye witnesses recorded lights a week after the fatalities are presumed to have taken place. One of these reliable witnesses talked of two explosions.
9 Radiation was found on some of the clothing, this could be from investigating mining activity on the journey or from the fatal event. However a water test suggested that the initial exposure could have been quite high and there are observations of the clothing exhibiting a purple glow. The helicopter pilots only flew the ravine four after being threatened by a superior officer at gun point (they wanted to wait for lead coffins).
10. The local native people had no doubts as to the cause - goldern orbs.
11. Ivanov wanted his report to state the cause of death was due to "fireballs" but he was overruled and forced to state a more general conclusion - "unknown and compelling force". Crucially in order to support this change in direction material was removed from the report. This can only be because it supported the fireball theory, n.b. there are no entries in the diary after leaving the base camp....
12. There are numerous photos taken from the cameras that seem to show nothing unless highly magnified and then a ball of light can be seen. Some of the observations of lights talk of concentric rings with a point source (star) in the centre. I don't know what 1959 photographic film was capable of but maybe the human eye can detect light wave lengths that are not detected by the film?..
No external injuries even though multiple ribs broken
Walking in single file from tent even though seemed to exit in absolute panic with no clothes
Multiple injuries such as crushed skulls
The ravine 4 seemed to be there for a while even setting up a temporary camp.
The only thing that makes sense is that they were either high jacked at least to start with
I must disagree, bl is documented as being explosive and the burns could be via electrical discharge also well documented.
BL is in my opinion the best explanation of the established facts.
Also if they we're following the group in a great distance, so they couldn't notice them, they wouldn't end up, where the group had ended, because that place wasn't on the original route. (Yuri Yudin was surprised where they have found the bodies.)
Also it's highly unlikely that a killer, or a killer group travels for days in the snowy mountains just to kill a group then travel back for days. (Yeah, you can say, they killed them there, because it's so far out, that people won't find the bodies. But they did. And the killer must have know they will eventually.)
If Yudin was the killer, he wouldn't leave the group at all - he just would went with them, and kill them in their sleep or something.
Also Svetlana Oss's book mentions that Yudin was collecting minerals this time with other students, and there are student diaries to prove this. Also Yuri Yudin being the killer explains nothing about the strange circumstances, that made Dyatlov pass incident a mistery. (Strange lights, radioactivity, missing tongue, etc.)
Yuri Yudin's alibi, motives and whereabouts been fully examined?
Not at all.
Is there any evidence against him?
Nope.
I lived and worked in Laplandia which extends over the northernmost quarter of Norway, Sweden and Finland and an equivalent area of Russia. And that is why I am interested in the Dyatlov incident.
Because one of the most esoteric theories is that one or more of the group was planning to defect to Norway. I think that theory is silly nonsense but it turned my head one day and caused me to take an interest in the Dyatlov event.
Ball lightning, fireballs, starbursts, skylights, "night suns", daylight bright & lingering meteorite storms, highly localized aurora borealis events, and other light and sound presentations happen all the time in the valleys and ravines of the sub-polar arctic regions.
Members of the Dyatlov party would have been very familiar with the northern lights and various types of light and sound events. They would have found the fireballs interesting and noteworthy that were supposed to have occurred on the night of their demise. But no "fireball" would have sent them into a panic.
Their injuries are not consistent with any kind of ball lighting or fireball.
Escaped prisoners would not have ventured into that river valley. And if they did, why didn't they take any possessions or supplies that would have been crucial to their own survival.
No, the prisoner theory doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
But a theory that the Mansi did it or something to cause it is viable.
Like the Mansi, the indigenous Laplanders have a scary sounding name for every unsafe pass or accident prone traverse like "valley of doom", "Mountain of no return" and yes, a lot of "Dead Mountains" or more accurately "Mountain where stupid people die who don't take good advice".
Laplanders are peculiar people in the sense that they do not come across as your enemy but they are certainly not your friend either.
Although both are real, neither has any basis for being included in the contributing factors of the causes for the group abandoning their shelter and supplies or the injuries they sustained.
Radiation is abundant in nature, especially in the Urals region where the Dyatlov incident occurred. The group had visited abandoned campsites and villages where geological assays had been conducted. In 1959 in the Soviet Union, geological assays consisted of obtaining surface and core samples at various depths and compiling a statistical report of the likelihood of the amount of each of the metals and minerals found in the area being explored. In the 1940s and '50s uranium and other naturally occurring radioactive elements were of utmost interest.
The group photographed themselves handling discarded core samples and hanging around the buildings and structures of the abandoned geological research facilities.
The amount of radiation detected on some of the clothing was consistent with what would be expected of people who were essentially kicking around in the dirt in that area.
Radiation testing was unofficial, its accuracy unknown and it was an extremely shallow sample from only a fraction of the clothing and possessions. Most of the clothing, bodies and possessions of the group were never tested.
Just about every book, movie, documentary, video and blog fallaciously states "high levels of radiation were found on the clothing [and/or] bodies". This unfounded assertion is used to launch innumerable theories radiation caused group panic and all of the injuries--especially oozing gray foam and discolored skin.
But there is no evidence the group was exposed to any radiation in any significant degree and even if they were, it is unlikely they would have fallen ill when they the did, and in fact did not just get ill but died.
Radiation was not a significant factor in the event.
Directed Energy Weapons have existed on a large scale since at least Sept 11. 2001 when DEWs of some sort destroyed the World Trade Center buildings (all seven of them, not just he towers.)
In 1959, the only directed energy weapon of any military value was microwave transmitters.
Interesting that you've been in the artic circle.
What I've read about hypothermia is that as the body constricts blood flow to the limbs etc the reduced volume results in increased pressure which the body control's by offloading fluid into the bladder via the kidneys. Concurrent to this the victims mental faculties are highly diminished (no urination). So a full bladder =1000ml is almost guaranteed in hypo deaths. Only ID displayed this.
<<==
Patient G., thirty-three years old, was admitted to the hospital on 23 January 1964. A doctor picked him up off the street, hesitating as he debated whether to take him to a morgue or a hospital, and ‘just in case’ decided to bring him to a clinic. The limbs [of the body] were bent at the joints and could not be straightened out – the body was ‘stiff’. The rectal temperature was below 0C. Heartbeat, breathing and reflexes were completely absent. Direct cardiac massage and intra transfusion were started. After twenty-five minutes, there was ventricular fibrillation of the heart. After forty minutes, breathing appeared. After fifty minutes, weak contractions of the heart began. After three hours and twenty-five minutes, the patient regained consciousness and started to talk. He remembered that having finished work, he drank 750 grams of vodka and went home. The air temperature was -29C. He had been lying on the street for seven hours. There was no evidence of damage to the central nervous system (CNS), and one year later the patient’s condition remained good.
Excerpt from "Death by Hypothermia" (1977) by V.P. Desyatov as quoted in Oss, Svetlana. Don't Go There: Post Mortem (Kindle Locations 1565-1568). . Kindle Edition.
==>>
Conclusions based on the coroner's reports of the presentations on the skin and other external components of the Dyatlov victims bodies along with all other declarations of the coroner's reports regarding causes of death can be summarily disregarded.
The above book "Don't Go There: Post Mortem" by Svetlana Oss provides conclusive evidence and argumentative reasoning for essentially throwing out every officially documented conclusion of the medical examinations. Only the raw data and observations--insofar as they can be determined to be sufficiently objective--can be used to form any hypothesis that have a chance of surviving a test against the significant amount of verifiable evidence, most of which is no longer extant.
1. Zina Kolmogorova's postion at death is not mysterious at all. Zina was romantically involved with both of the men whose bodies were closest to her body. The group had split up at some point with some of them forming an expedition to try to get back to the tent. The "tent" subgroup was Zina, Dyatlov and Slobodin. Zina was the best clothed, strong and athletic but had been struck in the side and back with something resembling a baton (or butt of a rifle). She made it the furthest of any in the "tent" expedition but of course, succumbed to hypothermia. The "tent" expedition was ill-fated because no one was properly clothed and all had sustained injuries and expended too much energy most likely fighting off their attacker(s).
2. The attacker(s) killed Thibeaux-Brignolle most likely because he tried to be heroic in trying to defend the girl in the group who was closest to him in age. His injuries are consistent with an impulsive young man who is killed by a much more experienced fighter wielding a long, hard object like a baton, rod or rifle. Zina's injuries are also consistent with such a weapon and more closely match what a male assailant who was an experienced fighter would do to woman who tried to attack him.
3. Regarding the so-called "lack of external injuries". The medical examiners were mediocre. All of the victims were experiencing various stages of advancing hypothermia when they sustained injuries. Bruising is not seen because blood flow is retracted from the skin of a hypothermic person. The body concentrates blood into the vital organs when it becomes hypothermic. I have personally experienced this happening very rapidly and very acutely. A cut on hypothermic skin that is shockingly deep may not bleed at all. In a particular episode of M*A*S*H a patient is said to have survived because he was "frozen" and would have bleed to death in warmer weather. The television series was known for its on-set medical advisors who took real accounts of combat from the Korean War and adapted them accurately for the show. The only thing that is not entirely accurate about the episode is that the soldier was not "frozen" because freezing kills tissue and bursts vessels. The soldier was hypothermic and his blood flow was restricted so much to the area of the wound that it did not bleed. The noticeable lack of "external injuries" is due to hypothermia. Remember, people are quite conscious and alive when their bodies begin to react to hypothermia.
4. I have lived a number of years above the Arctic Circle. Lights, fireballs, and other strange luminescent events are common. People in the lower latitudes only know about "the Northern Lights" but there is a whole range of strange and spectacular things that happen at the higher latitudes. And it's not all lights either. Sound events often occur too, with and without lights. I have heard and seen things that I would think were alien ships whizzing by or crashing if I wasn't an engineer with a physics education. The amount of energy deflected and channeled by the earth's magnetic field is enormous and causes all sorts of light and sound shows at the higher latitudes.
Everyone wants to treat the fireball events seen around the time of the Dyatlov tragedy as special. Sorry, that sort of thing is not special at all. Go spend a couple winters up there and you'll see. I have. And I am not impressed at all by the stories. They are as common as hurricanes in Florida. Sure, some are bigger than others and some seasons have few and others a lot. But what was seen was not unique.
If you take any story in isolation, it can be made out to be a spectacular or strange occurrence.
How many accounts of the Dyatlov incident mention that the lights in the sky seen at that time were also seen before and after that day for many days and from year-to-year? And none of the witness accounts of the "halos" are certain to have occurred exactly on the day when the group perished which is another issue.
Group infighting does not explain the hurried exit from the tent unless someone pulled a gun on the rest of the group. Or say, grabbed Lyuda and threatened to slit her throat if the rest of the group didn't do as he said.
Zolotaryov had the most unstable personal life going into the trip. He was a serial job-hopper. That is often a sign of an acute personality or psychological disorder that suddenly erupts. He was a loner and from a culture that almost required marriage yet remained unmarried at an age that was considered too old.
Zolotaryov had strange tattoos which are not that unusual for hardcore Soviet military men except that they were too cryptic in way that was not normal.
Zolotaryov was a Cossack from a group that was 97% wiped out by Stalin's genocide. He survived by joining the Soviet army and proving himself loyal to them. To abandon your familial heritage and join the enemy has to mean something is askew or will go askew with you psychologically at some point. And Zolotaryov had a very askew career and personal life.
Zolotaryov was an unvetted outsider with a very suspicious past that included World War II service where Soviet soldiers committed genocide, murder, torture and rape on a scale that certainly touched his experience if not fully involved him.
I would agree that infighting could have been what happened if Zolotaryov had not suffered the same violent death as Lyuda.
Zolotaryov was well clothed when he died of internal trauma. The rather mediocre coroners said there were no "external signs of injury" i.e. bruising to match the cracked ribs. This has been mistakenly attributed as evidence that the "overwhelming force" was some mysterious electromagnetic beam weapon.
Every other member of the group had a lengthy history with each other that rules out any of them as being involved in a fatal infighting incident.
Only Zolotaryov could have been the cause of an infighting conflict that drove them to their deaths. His background paints a very troubled person. But nothing that indicates he was a sociopath.
The biggest problem with trying to pin it on Zolotaryov is that he died with the other victims in a way that could not have been self-inflicted. And there just isn't another person who can be fingered with any reasonable degree of evidence. The group was also nearer the beginning of the trip than the end. Nerves get frayed during an expedition of several days but the group had not been traveling in the wilderness as a group, out of contact with the rest of the world, for more than four days. And they had not encountered any significant difficulties that would accelerate interpersonal tensions.
Someone from the outside attacked the group and did so for reasons that were personal and excluded most of the group.
Because Lyuda was so viciously attacked and two other men with her were killed violently, the most logical scenario is that the attacker(s) drove the group suddenly out of the tent.
At some point, some of them fought back and escaped. Some of them were seriously injured in the process and all were too weak and vulnerable to survive which would explain why the attacker(s) did not pursue them.
A person improperly clothed in a storm at -25 Celsius isn't going to survive the night. The escapees tried to get a fire going and climbed a tree to see where they were --strong evidence that they were driven from the tent by an attacker and not a fireball. If they had had a choice of where to flee, they would have headed toward the larger river, main path and their storage cache by the abandoned campsite.
Some of the escapees tried to get back to the tent and some stayed with the fire. Those who stayed with the fire were burned because that is what happens when the fire is too small and the weather too cold.
The clothing was not taken off of dead bodies, it was ordered to be given to the subgroup that the attacker was most interested in dealing with. People just assume the clothing of some of the victims was removed by their comrades after they died. In a hostage scenario the possibilities include clothing being ordered to be removed.
Because Zolotaryov was wearing Lyuda's hat and because his injuries would have left him alive for minutes or hours, it is logical to imagine that the assailant injured Zolotaryov first. Lyuda then, seeing him injured took compassion on him and gave him her hat. This likely took place in "the den" where Lyuda would have been out of the wind and could have survived without a hat.
The assailant then attacked Lyuda, perhaps it was because she showed compassion for Zolotaryov. Her injuries are consistent with someone acting out of anger and not as part of a fistfight.
The assailant then left the group after seeing that all of them were dead.
Doing such a thing was crazy stupid illogical and irrational but most crimes of passion are.
A14. Yuri Yudin either attacked the group or was an accomplice of the attacker(s). He left prematurely and his alibi is unverified. Yuri Yudin is seen in photos to be most affectionate with Ludya who was the target of the greatest violence. He therefore had romantic motive.
An attacker or attackers stalked the group from the moment they left the last town. The best opportunity for attacking the group was just before they began their ascent of the mountain. They would be furthest form civilization but not yet away from cover that allowed the stalker(s) to remain hidden.
The attacker(s) approached the tent and made demands that caused all or some of the members inside the tent to cut the tent in an attempt to flee from the threat at the opening. The lack of space and urgency of the situation did not allow anyone to gather up any supplies or clothing.
The assailant(s) forced the team to march down the hill toward the cover of the trees. The choice of going toward the small river and off the main path by the big river indicates the assailant(s) wanted privacy.
The objective was to confront one or more members of the team.
Yuri Yudin or someone he was assisting had a personal, likely romantic matter to resolve with Lyuda. She was the last to die and it was a viscous beating that killed her.
The person who received the next most violent beating was Zolotaryov. He was the likely usurper who received punishment for either being romantically or sexually involved with Lyuda. The autopsy report on Lyuda does not mention sexual activity as it does on Kolmogorova.
The mystery of why Zolotaryov joined the group is explained if he had a romantic interest in Lyuda.
This would also explain the suspicious coincidence of Yuri Yudin's departure from the group upon the arrival of Zolotaryov into the group.
And lastly, Yuri Yudin is the sole source of the one detail that delayed rescue operations claiming that Dyatlov told him they would be a few days later than expected.
Yuri Yudin's motives, opportunities and alibi were never fully investigated and he remains the No.1 suspect.
I agree that this is more likely than any other ideas.
They needed to leave he tent instantly I don't believe Ball lightening would do this. The tent had slits at eye level so they were looking out the tent for some reason. They could have been marched out fought and the group had a chance to run and split up. I still think that it could have been in fighting between the group. I just don't see the BL theory at all.
A9. An assailant from outside the group of injured and uninjured is the only explanation. If you are violently attacked or witness someone near you being violently attacked, you flee from the attacker. The uninjured and injured members of the Dyatlov group remain together, therefore the attacker was not among them.
Q10. Could the attacks have been a subgroup since there are three location groupings where the bodies were found?
A10. No. The uninjured appeared to have died before the injured. If a subgroup and attacked another subgroup, it would be the attackers who survived longest, not the victims.
Q11. Were any of the group involved romantically?
A11. Yes, very much so. Kolmogorova was involved with at least two of the men prior to the trip.
Q12. Was Lyuda Dubinina involved with any of the men?
A12. Unknown. Lyuda was the youngest and prettiest of the two. She was only 20 years old and was very extroverted, perhaps even flirtatious.
Q13. What types of scenarios explain a person inflicting an attractive young woman like Lyuda with such violent and severe chest injuries?
A13. Anger and sociopathic behavior. Lyuda sustained an amount of violence that cannot be explained as happening from a fight. The person or persons who fractured her ribs did the same to Zolotaryov who was found near her.
A1. Because the usual opening was blocked and leaving was deemed mortality urgent.
Q2. What urgency could cause such action?
A2. Most logical cause would be an armed and dangerous person blocking normal exit.
Q3. Why would team march down the slope in formation and away from where they had just left their cache of supplies for the return?
A3. Because someone pointing a gun at them forced them to walk away.
Q4. Who would force them away from their shelter but not raid the shelter?
A4. Someone whose interest was not in the possessions of the people but the people themselves.
Q5. Who would have had an interest in the people?
A5. The tenth member who left the group on the pretext of illness.
A6. The most logical of all suspects is Yuri Yudin, the tenth hiker who left the group.
Q7. Is the claim that no one entered the camp supported by the evidence?
A7. No. It is spurious reasoning at best. Although no other footprints were found, the absence of footprints proves nothing but an absence of footprints. Snow shoes would leave no trace that could be seen three weeks later. Yuri Yudin could have returned, perhaps with accomplices, wearing snow shoes and left no evidence of their presence.
Q8. Has Yuri Yudin's alibi, motives and whereabouts been fully examined?
A8. Not at all.
Eye witness accounts of lights and explosions near to the assumed date of the event.
Ergo the ravine four died from an explosion....
The only explanations i can think of for the close grouping of the "returning three" is acute radiation sickness or deep snow. An ARS theory requires the symptoms to be missed by the pathologist. Skiing off piste i've fallen into loose snow that was chest height in depth and no one could walk/crawl through that quickly. But two of them didn't die of hypothermia? RS was warm when hestopped moving (could be the skull fracture) but ZK is the most difficult one to explain, she was relatively well dressed?
How accurate were autopsies back in 1959?
What I mean is some of the bodies was not found for months, how can they say that they had no visual evidence of impact injuries ?
Given that the terrain would take them off course (seeking the easiest path) i don't think their actual position relative to the tent or the cedar is very relevant. We can't know. Also somne maps show them taking the shortest route with others having them elaewhere?
But we do know that they all perished so close to each other and that cannot be easily explained imo. Also only ID showed clear signs of hypothermia.
Couldn't find it (why not just retrace steps)
Something was stopping them
They were terrified
Also the 3 that were found trying to return seemed to be off course and not setting off from the tree. This means they were elsewhere when heading for the tent.
Any ideas?
What happens on snowy hills/mountains is that depending on the attitude of the ground to the sun, there is variable freeze/thaw were the sun melts the snow during the day and then it refreezes at night. These areas can be be like glass and difficult even for correct footwear. Skiers sometimes describe them as "boilerplate".
Further to this, these areas can then be hidden by light snowfall.
So nobody runs down snowy mountains unless they've got spiked footwear and not in the dark of night.
Indeed it maybe that the group deliberately went northeast towards the cedar rather than southeast to the base camp because the north face is always easier wrt to freeze/thaw. ID's last diary entry mentioned how icy the conditions could be away from the river. These conditions might be the cause of most of the cuts, bruising and even head fractures as they repeatedly fell over.
I've been googling around hypothermia today and come across "after flow". What happens with hypothermia is that the body restricts blood flow to the limbs in order to protect the core temperature. When a hypothermic patient is warmed up there is a risk that the body relaxes this restriction too quickly and the (relatively) cold blood in the limbs rushes into the core and the patient dies of the shock. Apparently the correct approach is to increase the temp of the trunk without warming the limbs at all, via drinks and hot stones, clothing etc.
So given that YD and YK had charred digits and burns there as a possible explanation for their early death, i.e. they sat too close to the fire and warmed up their limbs instead of their core.
As an aside i've been rereading Svetlana Oss's book and it appears that medical science has moved on since 1959. Specifically she passed the pathology findings to an expert in hypothermia and his opinion is that many of the original findings are confusing the effects of post death freezing with cause of death and it's probable that only ID died of hypothermia.
So inconclusive imo. N.B they were sufficiently relaxed about the threat to light a campfire at the cedar...
From Svetana Oss's book, a report from the Tagil Worker Feb 7th 1959.
Yesterday at 6.55 am local time, to the south-east, at an angle of twenty degrees above the horizon, a bright globe appeared about moon sized. Around 7am, inside of this globe, there was some sort of explosion and a very bright core of this globe became visible, which started to glow more intensely, and around it appeared a cloud. Then the cloud dissolved in the whole eastern part of the sky. Soon after this a second explosion took place, and it resembled the crescent of a moon, gradually the cloud was glowing and in the centre of it remained the bright spot.
- A. Kissel Deputy Head of Vysokogorny Colliery.
The same event was reported by another group.
There are other similar reports on the 15th and 31st of March.
Also i'm not aware of a finding that they ran from the tent, all i've seen is that they walked.
However lighthearted
Re metal - you're right that the BL theory requires multiple events 1500 meters apart. So hence a theory that the group attracted it somehow.
There seems to be an empirical connection between BL and ionised air (lightning strikes + more frequent reports at altitude). Maybe also spinning ionised air (foo fighters, dust storms).
The post wrt Hesdalen lights waa mine. I think the connection with latitude is interesting. We're sitting on the crust of a big ball of molten rock whose centre is a big ball of molten iron. This molten iron presumably has currents, coriolis force, convection etc. Perhaps this can create a local concentration of energy as yet unknown to science that manifests as lights, BL etc. Maybe explains cattle mutilations. Maybe the metal in mammalian bodies acts as a catalyst....
Tunguska is also at the same latitude, but an explanation for that has to include some form of bolide but cannot be fully explained by just that. A geomotor theory would fit in with my thoughts above.
I'm sure it was found on the floor of the tent, but it wasn't set up.
I'm not sure about the metal content of the body, but it can't be enough to be the preferred path for a discharge of electrical energy considering all metals in the body make up less than 1% of the mass.
As for the drug theory, it makes about as much sense as anything at this point. I was just joking around haha.
A more serious theory I've been thinking of is that ball lightning and other 'lights' might be caused by cosmic or solar radiation interacting with the atmosphere and the magnetic field. A sudden and intense bombardment of cosmic ray particles could saturate the area with BL, and ultra high energy particles could have caused the 'explosion' that fatally injured the 4 in the ravine. Someone else in the comments has mentioned the Hessdalen lights, and that they are at essentially the same latitude as Dyatlov pass. They may have the same cause. AFAIK the lights only ever appear at night. They way the particles might interact could send them careening around the earth to the night side where they then filter down through the atmosphere.
I think they left the stove at the base camp. N.B. the existence of the base camp suggests the trip up the hill was a diversion with a purpose.
The luxury with BL is as science can't explain it, it can be stretched to fit the theory, so maybe there is enough metal content within nine bodies ~(blood = iron, liver = copper, etc etc) to attract over 1500 meters.
Well if they ran after a trippy member why didn't they run back again when their feet got cold?
It does look like they had to escape the tent region and then used the cedar as a lookout to observe the same area.
I don't think they were sent there, just decided to do it out of interest, perhaps sought permission and SZ was attached to the group to report to the KGB. His death triggered the high investment in the investigation imo.
Ball lightning can't be an explanation by itself in my opinion. It would be an extraordinary chain of events for them to be forced out of the tent by ball lightning, then for it to appear again 1.5 km away at the top of the cedar that two of the group members happened to have climbed, then appeared again in a ravine 75 m away. It also doesn't account for the radiation either. It could have been just pure bad luck, but I doubt the chances of such a scenario occurring.
It must have been a multitude of events that lead to their deaths, but that would also be an extraordinary circumstance. Maybe they really were just that unlucky.
I'm not sure about them being sent there to study BL. I think the military would have kept better contact and/or conducted a search&rescue mission as soon as they failed to report back, and not wait 2 weeks for the families to complain. If I were in their position I would be sweating at the collar as soon as I found out top students have gone missing, one of which had worked in the nuclear program and another that seemed to do some shady work for the government.
The more I look into it the less progress I seem to be making. Maybe they all took drugs or something and went wild. Old Semen was like,
"hey you kids, this is the stuff that got me through the war, you want to try yes?"
They then went all crazy and one of them started tripping heavily, got spooked and just slashed his way out of the tent, then the rest ran after him or something.
So i don't see a connection with the slits as >kmr says. Imo they were quite ok with cutting slits and then repairing them, they were using the tent as an observation station protected from the elements, keeping cameras free of snow including loading film.
My theory is that they knew about the lights and intentionally went there to observe them as part of the trip and diary entries wrt this have been deleted.
Robs> my theory is that they exited so quickly because the BL came very close or even entered the tent (without leaving a trace). The first two to die - YD and YK had burns, charred digits and signs of a pulmonary edema. All of these injuries can be caused by electrocution.
So it's possible the BL entered the tent without leaving a mark, discharged into YD/YK and forced everyone out asap. Although these two could make their way down the mountain they died quickly afterwards weakened by this event, N.B although YD had frostbite but his urine level doesn't fit with hypothermia, he might have died from something else.
I doubt they'd intentionally damage their only tent regardless of how old it was. I suppose it could be possible, if Ivanov's account of ball lightning or 'fire balls' is to be believed, that the group made the slits to avoid being scorched by the heat. However as far as we know there were no scorch marks on the tent and no signs of melting in the area around the tent. There are photographs of the camp site and the tent that don't show any signs of scorching or melting, but of course there is an entire side of the tent that has no known photographs taken of it. However the problem with that is the side of the tent with the slits in was photographed. This doesn't fit with the 'fire balls' he described because if the slits were made with the intention of observing a 'fire ball', there would be burn marks on the side of the tent with the slits. He also said that some of the trees were burnt too but there are no photographs of that.
Of course, the information may have been removed from the final report for an unknown reason. I personally don't think it was a cover up of anything shady. I think the authorities were just as baffled as everyone else and hid the information to avoid embarrassment(At least with the nuclear disaster in 57 they would have been able to figure out a cause).
They were too confused by whatever the events were to come up with a solid conclusion. This is obviously bad for the Soviet Union's image. The cause of death(hypothermia) was probably decided upon to give the families of the deceased some sort of closure, keeping them quiet.
The problem with this incident is that there is lots of information, but not enough key pieces of information to go on. Perhaps they all just went insane.
Wrt slits, cutting your tent to observe something instead of standing outside is unusual but perhaps the tent was old, at end of life and they wanted to observe from inside for an extended period and keep camera lenses clear of snow etc.
If anyone is puzzled why the report was changed, this is what happened to civil servants that displeased the hierarchy - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Census_(1937)
Later in life Ivanov gave an interview where he expressed his feelings of guilt wrt the report and hiding information from the families of the deceased. This might have included the last thing they ever wrote....
A couple of things stick out to me that I think haven't been given much attention.
The group made no entries in their diaries at all on their last day alive, only taking pictures with their cameras. Up until this point they at least made an entry about the weather everyday. Now travelling in the open under high wind would mean that they wouldn't be able to write as they went. They didn't write anything in the morning of the final day, and they didn't write anything after they got settled down in the tent for their final night either. Although, you could say that whatever it was that caused them to leave the tent happened while they were in the process of getting ready for bed.
This is out of the ordinary when compared to the previous days. Something happened either in the night or the morning of the 1st that spooked them into silence. This event may also have influenced the decision of Dylatov to go up the slopes of dead mountain rather than make for the pass. Ball lightning has been mentioned by a few in this comment section. It seems a sufficiently odd phenomenon to warrant avoidance by the group, but not frightening enough to a group of well educated individuals to not mention anything at all about it. It's probable that the group would have at least taken pictures of such events. The images may have been on the damaged film in the unknown camera. Unfortunately we may never know.
The other thing that isn't too clear to me is the horizontal eye level slits made in the tent. The simplest answer is that they were made so that the pieces of tent on either side of the large vertical slits would collapse, allowing for a fast and easy exit. From what is unknown. Since I mentioned it previously, it could have been more ball lightning. The problem with that is, it doesn't fit with the slits being made at eye level with the intent of observing the ball lightning, or something else. These are experienced adventurers. If they had wanted to observe something outside of the tent, they would have at least put on a layer of clothes and used the entrance to take a look. I doubt that they would have intentionally created slits in their only tent because of an unexplained light source. I think this lends a little more credence to infra-sound or another startling noise causing them to leave in a hurry rather than anything visual.
Regarding the remaining seven my theory would be that they all retired to the ravine to shelter from the wind and built a den out of branches to isolate themselves from the icy ground. The party was sufficiently relaxed about their situation that some of the clothing was left hanging rather than being worn.
Then there was a violent event that created the injuries. My explanation is that ball lightning appeared overhead of some of the party which would have been dispersed (e.g. collecting more branches or perhaps there had been fighting and they'd split into two groups) and then exploded. Those nearest the blast received fatal injuries, those further away were thrown off their feet and received non fatal bruising (i.e. RS and SK, also ID had blood in his mouth).
What's interesting is what happens next :-
1. the remaining three do not appear to stop to recover extra clothing or footwear not even the clothing hanging on branches this suggests that they abandon the site with urgency. Some of the ravine four were very comfortably dressed including footwear (SZ and NTB). N.B. ZK had no footwear, RS had one boot, ID had no footwear, but they didn't stop to collect any even they subsequently appear to have died of hyperthermia... N.B. the clothing of the ravine four was contaminated with radiation.
2. they then appear to be making their way back to the tent but all three of them expire within say 200 meters of other? This is very strange, the snow wasn't deep, surely it should be more variable than that, that they would die hours apart, or at least one/two hours apart? It's as if they were all suffering from some fatal sickness that got all three at the same time. Acute radiation sickness? Whatever all three seem to have ceased moving forward within say 15 minutes of each other....
1. the local mansi people blamed the "golden orbs".
2. another hiking party in the region miles away saw a light descend in the DP area and then heard a bang on that night.
3. other eye witness accounts of "lights" over the following weeks including from the rescue party on the same mountain.
4. the pathologist ruled out falling as the cause of the injuries and suggested "like a shockwave from a bomb".
5. alpine experts ruled out avalanches.
6. Ivanov an experienced professional police investigator determined the fireballs as the cause but was overruled by his superiors.
7. beta radiation was discovered on clothing and a water test suggested that the original contamination was high.
She didn't just bite part of her tongue off. Again from this site - "The medical records simply (state) that "the tongue is missing". Vozrojdenniy describes missing hypoglossal muscle as well as muscles of the floor of the mouth.". I.e. all the soft tissue within mouth was removed.
A possible explanation here is that she bit her tongue, swallowed some blood before dying and then predation attracted by the wound did the rest. Crustacea like water snails would be a good fit for the assymetry of the resultant damage, but note another good fit is whatever causes cattle mutilations....
It appears that this was also the opinion of the chief police investigator Ivanov.
He also said in his report (documented in Svetlana Oss's book) that the injuries of the ravine four were consistent with the shockwave from a bomb.
Also LD had 100ml of blood in her stomach, suggesting that the tongue and associated muscle were removed whilst she was still alive and she swallowed.
Why did they cut the tent to get out?
They were obviously panicked, so it has to be avalanche or threat of one. Loud noises etc would not make you cut the tent to get out. It was not an avalanche but maybe a few inches of snow panicked them. The other option is a brutal fight in tent which made them exit quickly.
I think they ran not walked down to the tree obviously thinking they were heading to the hut.
They realised that they were the in trouble as weather closed in and visibly was poor. They built fire and climbed tree trying to find hut. By then they were all together. (If it was a fight they were all back friends realising their mistake). Three went back to tent and didn't make it. Four went to find hut fell into ravine causing brutal injuries which killed them pretty quickly.
The questions that I would like answered if anyone knows is.
How deep was ravine could it have been deep enough to cause crushing injuries if they fell.
Was there and blood found in or around tent this would explain fight.
I don't think it was yeti, special forces, ufos or anything similar.
They were young fit individuals, cross country skiing with 1959 equipment is a demanding activity. The pathologist noted that "the ravine four" would have probably survived their extensive injuries for up to half an hour due to their youth and high level of fitness.
Thank you
Lyuda Dubinina - this entry is not signed, but can't be anybody else but Dubinina.
This would be Igor Dyatlov [not Lyuda] because he had been there the year before. He spoke about Zina as well, because he was courting her at the time of the trip.
It seems that Ivanov had to dilute his report from what he wanted to say - "it was the fireballs" to "unknown and compelling force" and material was removed from it in order to support the change of direction. So it's plausible that they did take photographs that have quietly resurfaced. Might be some journals out there as well.
I think it is Rustem Slobodin in the jacket, not Kolevatov. Check the facial structure against other photos. Cheers,
Although google's translation is a somewhay garbled, section 14 was interesting. He makes (to me) a new observation that three out of the four ravine bodies had scalp tissue damage towards the back of the head. Suggesting that they were thrown backwards with some force. Imo this fits with my "BL explosion" theory as would be looking at (facing) the object before it exploded.
However it is very difficult to fit the facts with a "they were murdered theory". The key problem is that the autopsies showed that the extensive fractures did not include trauma to the relevant tissues, the pathologist recording that the injuries were consistent with the "shockwave from a bomb".
Another problem is that the Soviet authorities took the event very seriously and at considerable cost (police team, kgb team helicopters etc for 3-4 months) investigated it very thoroughly. The only explanation for this is that the military were not involved and the authorities were baffled and hence had concerns for national security.
My theory is recorded below ( 04-05-2016 20:59 (GMT)). I know ball lightning may sound like science fiction to some, but if so they should read "Ball Lightning: Paradox of Physics by Paul Sagan". The Dyatlov incident would fit within his classification as "Lethal Rocket BL" - descends from the clouds, travels above the ground before discharging and/or exploding possibly with loss of life. BL also explains why they vacated the tent in the way they did and "that photo".
Imo some or all of the group knew about the existance of the dyatlov lights and this is why they broke their previous camp so late (3pm?) and travelled such a short distance before they camped there on the mountain to observe them (one camera in the tent was on a home made tripod) and SZ had a secret camera of course.
Sometime during the day or evening of Feb 1st, the Dyatlov group encountered a clandestine testing or training operation perhaps involving jets or rockets (This would explain the reports of glowing orange lights and the military debris in the area later noted by YY). It wasn’t the type of situation where there was a fear of the hikers leaking photographs of a secrete weapon (their cameras would have simply been confiscated). For some reason, the group itself came to be perceived as the threat.
The group’s journal records that as they were traveling towards the beginning point of their hike, they sometimes sung anti-revolution songs that could have landed them in jail. They twice had scrapes with authorities on their trip (once for singing). Also from the journal, it appears that they enjoyed free and open debates about a variety of topics. Later, out in the woods hundreds of km from the nearest settlement (journal entry), they probably would have felt even greater freedom in such expressions. Entering into the area of an ongoing operation may have brought them under surveylence, perhaps without their knowledge. An overheard song or a frank debate about politics, combined with their chance-but-perceived-as-“suspicious” presence in a sensitive area, caused them to be viewed as subversive.
They camped that night on open high ground. When one of the members, perhaps SZ or NYB, stepped outside to relieve himself, if it was clear, his flashlight would have been visible for a long distance, alerting anyone in the area who might not have already been aware of their tent’s precise location. Minutes later, as the group was finishing dinner and drying out their clothes, a small armed detachment arrived at the tent. Whoever it was (I’ll call them “soldiers”) knocked the tent down, fired a few rounds into the air, and ordered the hikers outside or they would be shot. (Supposedly, there were no footprints other than the Dyaltov party’s at the tent, but how could one tell? Surely the Dyaltov group made many boot prints when they set up camp, obviously the rescuers were wearing boots days later when they got to the tent. At first no one suspected it could be a crime scene. It is not just possible but probable that a couple extra pairs of footprints at the tent would have gone unnoticed).
Unexpected gunfire and barking orders would have sent a momentary jolt of fear into even these level-headed travelers. Members of the group who had pocket knives at hand quickly cut through the tent to get everyone outside before the threat was carried out. The multiple cuts in the tent were created in the panic and confusion of exiting a wriggling collapsed tent cover in the dark.
The soldiers wanted to neutralize the hikers, but to leave bullet holes or other obvious wounds would have eventually led to strong demands for an explanation from the community. The soldiers chose to expose them to the cold. Under some guise, the soldiers told the Dyatlov group that they had to leave the area immediately. With great presence of mind, the group leader, ID grabbed a flashlight and his heavy coat as he was leaving the tent. He was immediately ordered to leave them behind, setting the flashlight on the tent, and throwing his coat down, near the spot where he had exited (It’s difficult to conceive of another logical scenario that would explain these objects being found where they were).
The Dyaltov party was followed, but not very far. (Their being followed some distance would explain the heeled boot track found among their own tracks as they headed down slope - No one in the group was wearing such boots at this time). They dropped a lit flashlight on the way, either because they were ordered to do so, or in hopes of using it as a beacon to direct them back to the tent if the soldiers left.
Poorly clothed, in extreme cold, and possibly in the dark, these resilient people covered half the distance that they traveled in their entire day’s hike, to arrive at the nearest tree line. This probably took quite a bit of time, and they knew that with their level of exposure the clock was against them. They set up a small base camp under a pine tree, just out of site of the tent, and together built an emergency fire (an impressive feat with frozen wood, in the cold, with no gloves, and possibly in the dark). Afraid that the soldiers were still at the tent, and unsure if they would pursue, YD and YK were posted near the fire to keep a lookout for the soldiers’ approach. (This would explain why branches were broken off so high up in the tree on the side of the tent, when other branches would have been easier to obtain.) Perhaps they kept a lookout from up in the tree as long as they could. Many or all of the injuries on these two individuals were from exposed hands getting frost bite in the tree, eventually leading to them falling out.
The rest of the group proceeded to build a shelter in a protected area, near, but out of site of the lookout tree. The small fire of frozen wood was not enough to keep the injured YD, and YK warm. Even though they burned parts of their numb extremities, they fell asleep. Either someone in the group was with them, or came back to them, showing care and respect by placing the bodies next to each other. The outer clothes, no longer of any use to the deceased, were removed. At this point, the shelter was not yet finished, because some of their clothing was incorporated into it. The survivors did their best to stay warm in the shelter, but were dangerously cold and heartbroken over the deaths.
Shortly before dawn, the soldiers returned to make sure no one was left to tell the tale. They discovered the shelter, and a hand-to-hand fight ensued. (This would explain many’s of the group’s injuries, including the bruised metacarples on ID and RS, RS’s concussion, and the baton bruise on ZK.) Exhausted and freezing, the group was now no match for their assailants even without the use of their guns).
ID, RS, and ZK managed to break free into the darkness. They made a run for the tent, desperate for the axes or anything to help their friends. (Such a level of desperation would explain why they left the group, the shelter, and the fire, when they were so close to freezing that they could only go a few hundred more yards). ZK, a strong and brave young woman came the closest to making it.
As for the group that was left, the soldiers pressed LD and SZ to death, broke YK’s neck, and crushed TBS’s skull, neutralizing them without leaving any obvious weapon mark. (Such a grim scenario would explain the types of injuries sustained by the party members found in the ravine - crushed chests with none of the external cuts or arm injuries that would have certainly happened in a fall, explain why they were all found outside of their nearby shelter, explain the fragment of soldier’s garb found in the ravine, and explain why it was subsequently taken out of evidence). The autopsies of these group members were the most vague, because the coroners had no choice. More detail would have raised still more questions from the community and gotten them in official hot water.
It is significant that YY, who was a part of the group, knew the Dyatlov party’s circumstances better than any living person, and saw all or most of the original evidence, thought that the military had something to do with his friend’s deaths. In 2008, 6 of the original rescuers and a team of 31 experts came to the similar conclusion that military testing was involved. The official report was that the Dyatlov group died at the hands of an “unknown compelling force”. How could words come closer to summarizing the above, without implicating the party responsible? This may also explain why the military closed the area for the following three years.
Any thoughts?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmsWBrWCc8I
by the way, any idea why some of my video posts are active and others are not? Am I doing something???
here's an attempt -- the last post was not active (you have to cut-n-paste it into the address box) I'll try again:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmsWBrWCc8I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lavcOYUGnfQ
at 11:30 into the video is a ball that comes toward and above the viewer (goes above someone who was filming from inside a building) -- THAT segment looks something that would have produced a B&W still photo much like the last of the Dyatlov photos.
My point of the abandoned village is that it was close to the area where the hikers died -- granted some distance, in miles -- but that it might have had similar experiences either lightning or ball lightning. note: hikers 80 miles away saw balls of light on a different day - and at a different location. No one abandons a village that is 1/2 way built unless there was an "unknown compelling force". Of course there could be other reasons -- such as a change in economic plans -- but these would tend to simply change the nature of the village, say from housing scientists or engineers to use by hikers or as vacation dashas. Leaving a village behind and not returning at all has to have a big reason. A reason that was not apparent when they chose that location for a village. There are areas on Earth where balls of light continue to be seen on a regular basis, maybe that area is one of them.
Yes Tesla could produce ball lightning as have others - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_lightning
But no one's got a good explanation of why it's happening
Not sure that the abandoned village is part of the DPI?
I'm moving away from the anti matter comet theory, difficult to explain the modest/stationary velocities commonly observed. One of the theories for the Tunguska event is that there is some unknown interaction between the atmosphere and the earth - a "geo motor". This would explain the localisation/repetition of the "lights" phenomenon of course.
Have you gone to much of the Dyatlovmania sites? I just went to one that claimed the tent was on a "steep slope" that was "subject to avalanche" -- which is the opposite of the facts. (that was the coldsmokeco web-site) When I see stuff like that - I just stop reading and go somewhere else.
Question: any idea, if any of the research of N. Tesla reported any fire-balls of any kind? Most things I have read or seen talk about his interest in radio and power transmission and other high voltage / high frequency phenomena -- he also worked with static charge accumulation and so I'm betting there were "accidents" which might have produced a fire-ball but were ignored as just an effect of whatever the accident involved.
That web-site you went to said somewhere that it was (in part) a work of art which presents a true event -- and what I noticed is that they sometimes used the images from the hiker's stills but crudely animated them and etc. -- made a few video clips --- also: what verification code ?
still my big question is WHY that scientist's village was abandoned ?
Was that a research site? or an engineering site? or what? What were they doing building a small village of log homes right in the middle of nowhere in Southern Siberia and then abandon the village -- some photos showing walls 1/2 way built (not falling down) and notice that ALL the roofs are in good shape as if they were just built -- several buildings have windows, but others buildings are not finished and have not been windowed, but are framed for windows. I think they left in a hurry -- which is what the hikers did as well .............
Lovely website, a masterclass in presentation.
But i don't think all of the fotos are connected with the event. But some interesting original info.
I regularly have to re enter the verification code.
I've googling further and may have hit the jackpot! :-
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimatter_comet
Seems an excellent explanation for the DPI evidence. Maybe for cattle mutilations and spontaneous combustion.
I'd agree that BL maybe a generic term for multiple phenomema, google naga fireballs.
I just went to that web-site and it doesn't have the translations I thought it had (does have a few of reports of lights and etc.)
Also: I am wondering about that "abandoned" village the hikers encounter -- here's why;
1) the buildings look relatively new with good (still intact) roofs and SOME OF THE BUILDINGS LOOK ABANDONDED 1/2 WAY THROUGH CONSTRUCTION 2) the buildings have the feel of a project abandoned 1/2 way through its start-up (could be just another failed project, but it looks more ominous) no one is even using the buildings for a shelter or village or whatever. The hikers don't say much and treat it as some normal thing.
-- this leads me to believe that it might have had problems. In the pull-down for Cameras you can clock on the entire selection of recovered film -- there are several shots of this abandoned village -- including one with a wall and roof half built -- I'm wondering why this new village was abandoned. Do you have any info on this?
Question about this comments section:
Do you have problems with the "verification code" ? -- several times I enter the exact 'code' and it rejects it as "invalid" -- does this happen to you ?
I have a degree in Physics from the University of London. Yes matter-antimatter interactions release huge amounts of energy (more than nuclear fission from memory) because the atomic nucleus is annihilated but here we're only seeing the electrons being annihilated with positrons, the mass and energies involved are much much smaller. You just get gamma rays. Granted these might kill you within hours or days but not from an explosion. Anyway the BL composed of positrons theory is just some blue sky thinking from me to connect Dubinina's injuries with cattle mutilations. Very possibly (anti matter) pie in the sky.
But n.b. Dyatlov might have been showing signs of ARS - acute radiation sickness as he had blood on his lips possibly from vomiting. Weakened by ARS as well as the cold could help explain how the three failed to make it back to the tent.
Afaik, Svetlana Oss is the only Russian national who has investigated the dpi and translated the Soviet archives/reports/affidavits into English for a Western audience. Apparently it's not "Mountain of the Dead" but "Dead Mountain", which is a big difference, e.g. "The Sea of the Dead" versus "The Dead Sea". So imo it's the best source of the facts rather than spooky hype and it's not unreasonable to give her a plug when i'm quoting verbatim from her book. This is how she makes her living.
Glad you favour the BL theory. At least we agree on something..
You need to study some high-energy physics --- gamma ray particles are among the most energetic and powerful in the universe. Also matter-antimatter interactions release huge amounts of energy -- what looks small to you is because you have confused the energy of one particle with the energy of a large group of particles.
For example: if I hit you over the head with ONE molecule of wood, I suspect that no matter how hard I do that, you will not even feel it --- now compare that with the results of a large number of wood molecules .... like a baseball bat ! The anti-matter (positrons creating BL in this example) might have a similar effect (assuming BL is made up of positrons) --- there would be a big release of energy (explosion) which could cause the injuries seen. However simple electrical energy could also do this -- which is why you see damage from regular lightning. The DPI injuries are consistent with being close to a release of a fair amount of air-burst energy -- enough to compress parts of the body without causing surface (skin) damage.
I have not read the Svetlana Oss book, however, from interviews (I just watched) I can see that she is just exploiting the DI for financial benefit - she even refuses to speak on camera about her own conclusions but suggests everyone buy the book (a dead giveaway NOT to buy the book).
Also: I noticed that several (researchers? writers? etc.) have repeated each other's nonsense as if it were fact (further confusing the story).
also: I do think the reports of BL are as accurate as can be expected - considering that the various reporters were not familiar the phenomena; like myself, I have never seen it, but do know of its existence -- many people in the 50's or 60's, even well educated people, would have never even read about BL.
I favor the BL approach to the DPI as it is the most simple, makes the most sense, and most importantly: other people at other times have reported seeing what would be interpreted as BL.
07/02/59:06.55 - a detailed description from the Deputy Head of Vysokogorny Colliery.
07/02/59:0600 - ditto from a two members of the rescue group. Both reports talk about a large globe or concentric rings 5,6 times larger than a full moon with a bright star in the centre.
15.03.59:0650 - from a meteorological technician. Comet with a tail turned into a large ball with a star at the centre.
31.03.59:0400 - search party sentry on duty and all members who were awake saw a large fiery ring with a star at the centre that grew to the size of the moon before dropping out of sight. N.B. they were so concerned for their safety that they radioed the sighting and specifically requested assurances that they were safe there "because it made a pretty alarming impression"....
But the kicker imo is the following, her book records the formal interview between Ivanov the chief investigator and Vozrozhdenniy the forensic pathologist who performed the autopsies. Ivanov is asking about the three who recieved the worst fractures - Tibo, Dubinina and Zolotaryov (as spelt in the book). Tibo's skull fracture showed no impact damage to the associated soft tissue (i.e. he wasn't hit by a rock). Dubinina and Zolotaryov chest fractures are explained as "These wounds, especially appearing in such a way without any damage to the soft tissue of the chest are very similar to the type of trauma that results from the shock wave of a bomb".
For anyone reading this and who interested in all things Dyatlov, i'd recommend her book "Don't go there"- Svetlana Oss, she's an English speaking Russian journalist who has done a thorough research job imo, granted i don't agree with her conclsion but you'll have to buy her book to find out why...
Wrt "Anti-matter would not "dissolve" matter -- it would explode with force on contact with it!"
I can't agree, an electron / positron annihilation just results in two high energy photons (gamma rays). That's all, nothing else. Imo it could just be a pop or a fizz. But the "matter" would disappear.
Wrt to predation, well the blood in the stomach is very easy to explain as swallowed. Also the profile of the facial tissue damage amongst the four bodies found in the stream is highly asymmetric. Also it doesn't of course explain the fractures.
a better "anti-matter" connection to ball lightning might be if the ball itself is or contains anti-matter --- which could explode with force, but no chemical heat, and could explain some of the injuries -- but not how the ball could enter the tent, nor things like the facial injuries, which are very consistent with small animals (mice or birds?) nibbling on the soft tissues. Eyes make great fish-bait and are illegal for such use in many states (they work that good) so face down in a creek might cause the eyes and etc to be eaten. I went to some forensic autopsy sites and found that this kind of soft tissue injury is, indeed, common. Anti-matter would not "dissolve" matter -- it would explode with force on contact with it!
Thinking further on the connection between lightning and positrons, if i assert that BL is composed of a container of positrons=anti matter that is stable for a limited time then this gives the following explanation wrt dyatlov :-
Dubinina's and Zolotaryov's injuries could be explained by a beam (cloud?) of anti matter released from one BL just before another one exploded. The cloud hits them in the face removing their eyes which would focus the radiation onto the retina. It also removes eyebrows, eyelids and surrounding facial tissue. In Dubinina's case she starts to inhale (perhaps to scream) and takes in some of the cloud removing her tongue and lower muscle, nose tissue, upper lip and left cheek. Whilst they are still reeling she swallows about 100ml of blood before another BL explodes resulting in the chest fractures as they are thrown with great force.
I should add that i've read the anti matter removing the tongue theory elsewhere on the web so not original. At first i thought it to be a crank idea but now i like it more. It is a recorded feature of BL that a single ball can breakup into several smaller ones, which also fits here.
N.B. the radiation found on the clothing was beta.
If you find any video lectures on ball lightning, please post them. I have not found much -- many bogus and / or UFO-space alien nonsense under the guise of "ball lightning video" The Florida Institute of Technology video was the best I've found, and his was just an informational lecture for the public.
Good video thanks, interesting that lightning produces anti matter (positrons).
I had to chuckle with the world's foremost expert talking for an hour, giving BL 30 seconds with "it does exist honest"...
Spinning magnetic field -- CREATING -- spinning electrical field -- CREATING -- spinning plasma. I think it starts with a spinning magnetic field.
and thanks, I am aware of the other reports of "lights" or balls of light in the sky. The lightning tutorials I listed below are interesting in that they are presented by a PhD who has studied lighting in Florida for over a decade. He is boring but worth watching once as he highlights two things: 1) tons of upper atmosphere mega-lightning and linked lightning over large areas; and 2) the fact that lightning does some strange (ie. unexplained) things.
watch this one if you're interested:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxYhJTR_O3g
ALSO: its possible that various people saw various things / "lights in the sky" some might have been rockets -- but not on that night. However, because of the tests, some of the local party officials might have tried to "cover-up" something that didn't happen, thus complicating things.
Spinning ionised air initiating something else. However I personally like the "earthquake lights" theory. Some of the theories for the Tunguska event (an explosion of megatons) discuss BL, as the event is difficult to explain as a comet/meteor as there's no impact crater and observers state it changed direction. Curiously Tunguska is at a very similar latitude to Dyatlov and Hassdalen just over 60 degrees north...
Also, in that same dyatlovmania section are quite a few quotes -- some reporting ball lightning in the same area -- any idea where they came from? There are no citations.
Yes well spinning ionised air seems to be a common factor - tornadoes, aircraft wing tip vortex (foo fighters), but how this results in stable persistent objects is still unknown afaik.
Regarding your comment about radiation levels not being significant, the contaminated clothing was subjected to a "water test" - placed in running water for say 12 hours to see how much it reduced the radiation, (the bodies had been in a stream for many weeks). Based on this test is was determined that the initial exposure was quite high.
I agree that the last frame could be a BL photo.
Personally i'd be cautious about throwing metal at BL, one of the theories explains explosions as rapid shorting of different layers. The chest fractures were consistent with being dropped 60 feet....
Regards
Ball lightning seems to be several related phenomena -- while I have no answers -- having watched the formation of ball lightning (on videos) I would conjecture that it might be some sort of rapidly spinning MAGNETIC field effect: 1) spinning magnetic fields create electrical current possibly self-contained and energetically creating a plasma from the surrounding air -- this would account for its ability to go through walls and etc.; 2) since the rate of field rotation could be almost random -- the differences in spin-rate might account for the vast difference in reported power / activity of the visible ball of plasma; some explode with enough power to injure or damage, but many just dissipate with no apparent harm.
Sad to say, but if I'm right, and if ball lightning had entered the tent, the hikers could have thrown any metal object at it and it would have disrupted the spinning field.
also note: rescuers reported that the hikers DID NOT set up the metal stove and its metal chimney (as if they were experiencing or expecting lightning)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtlWQ-scn48
which is from Florida Institute of Technology -- the lecturer, J. Dwyer, has several worth-while you tube lectures. (note: you have to be able to follow a one hour lecture to benefit, as its more technological and less entertainment orientated) Here's another of his lectures on lightning:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxYhJTR_O3g
also from FIT.
misspelled "clothes" in the post below:
ALSO: the radiation on the closes was minimal and consistent with the two things in Soviet (and World) life then; specifically 1) the amount and numbers of atmospheric nuclear bomb tests, and 2) some of the party had access to minor nuclear materials in the labs they worked in -- remember -- they were undergraduate and graduate students at the MIT of the Soviet Union, in the 1050's.
I am an Eagle Scout, I've camped in zero degree weather. I have read, Dyatlov, had some sort of rigged gas stove to help keep them warm at night and might have had a problem causing someone to yell that it was gonna blow, obviously these folks were either asleep or about to be, and probably had most of their clothes off to try and dry, and when you're cold and tired being half asleep and probably low on calories, you almost feel drugged.
Since you cant untie those old tents fast, probably one of them took a knife and cut them out and ran. grabbing what they could, thinking about the stove about to blow and that causing a possible avalanche ran towards the direction they thought was that cabin, instead they went the wrong way, judging that where the tree was at, was about the same distance as the cabin (on the other side of the mountain area), the few that were injured probably climbed the tree and fell looking for the cabin or land marks...you've got to remember they probably were in blizzard like conditions.
Even though these people were obviously tough, hypothermia was probably setting in, that can cause all sorts of madness. They probably split the odds for survival, the two staying and building a fire, and Dyatlov and the other two trying to get back to the tent. I've read Dyatlov had a branch in his hand, and people saying he was fighting...he probably was shielding himself from the wind/snow hitting him in the face. The others being injured bad, if they were still alive, probably huddled together to keep warm.
And the radiation, they used to make thorium dioxide (I think that's right) lantern wicks. If those break that garbage gets on you.
This explains both the upright tent poles and their panicked exit from the tent. Why else would they cut their way out and then abandon it. It must have been collapsed by snow, but could not have been collapsed by a normal avalanche, because the tent poles remained upright. A normal avalanche is quite unlikely on such a shallow incline.
When they dig their way out from the 2 or 3 meters of snow drift, they are in a panic. Their tent is collapsed, cut up and buried and they are afraid of further avalanches, so they hurry to get their supplies. The rest happens as described in my other comment.
Usually in a tent collapse, people have no choice but to remain with their tent and try to dig it out. But at Dyatlov pass, they had a supply depot nearby. It was just not close enough and very hard to find in the darkness.
With regard to Doroshenko climbing the tree, he was trying to collect firewood while remaining near the heat of the fire and also trying to prevent the branches above the fire from catching fire themselves.
About Krivonishchenko's burns. Think about the temperature differences involved. If you have -30C on your back, that's a -70C difference to your body temperature. Just to keep your temperature level, when standing still, you would need a +70C temperature difference in front of you. That would be 40C + 70C =110C. A fire is NO GOOD in these temperatures if you have poor clothing. You will die because the temperature you need from the fire is so high that you will get 3rd degree burns trying to get heat and still die of hypothermia. Poor Krivonischenko. You are a hero, all respect to you.
This explains why the people who were moving and had better clothing lasted longer than the people by the fire.
They are the Gods of the mountain.
The avalanche is enough to cover the tent and scare them more, but not enough to injure them or flatten all the tent poles.
Because of the tent's orientation, the side facing down the hill is the only one not completely covered in snow, so in the darkness and their panic they manage to cut themselves out and escape the tent with what they have.
No one is injured at this point. The avalanche was only a meter or so deep.
The rocket testing is ongoing and they are extremely afraid, so they go down the hill toward their supply stash, but in the dark, they choose the wrong direction.
At the tree line a fire is lit. Kolevatov burns part of his jacket trying to get heat from the fire. They realise it will not be enough to save them and a group goes on to retrieve the supplies. Krivonischenko and Doroshenko stay to look after the fire. Krivonischenko is a hero and gives his brown sweater to Dubinina. "I don't need it I have the fire." He sees she is struggling and tries to save her. So the party splits for the first time.
The forward group fall through the fresh snow into the ravine and suffer injuries. Some die immediately. Clothes are redistributed and the injured are made as safe as possible where they are.
Those who can walk, that is Dyatlov, Slobodin and Kolmogrova, now realise that their direction was wrong because the ravine should not have been there. They also realise that the fire and the tent is safer than out here, so they head back, hoping to rescue their friends in the ravine later.
On the way back to the tent they find their friends dead. Krivonischenko had burned himself in the fire trying to keep warm but it was not enough. They place the bodies of Krivonischenko and Doroshenko together. Kolmogorova, Dyatlov and Slobodin head to the tent, but do not make it.
I am not sure about the theory. I decided to make the best case for this scenario that I can. I feel great sympathy for the people involved.
Having read around this on the internet and including Svetalana Oss’s book “Don’t go there” it is clearly in my opinion ball lightning.
Ivanov believed that UFOs was the best explanation, but he stressed not aliens, just lethal unidentified flying objects/fireballs, the soviet authorities diluting his finding to “unknown compelling force”.
Ball lightning fits in with his view and explains :–
mountain lights being observed from elsewhere and reported by the mansi, burns that are otherwise difficult to account for, burnt clothing, burnt tree tops, deaths due to extreme pressure (explosion). Because ball lightning isn’t yet understood by science it also allows the luxury of being stretched to explain skin colour, hair whitening, radiation. But in particular it works extremely well with what is perhaps the key question, why did they leave the tent that way? :-
The occupants are settling down in the tent it is dark outside.
A light (or lights) appear on the mountain bright enough to be noticed inside the tent. Fascinated the occupants start making slits along the top of tent at standing height (say three 30 cm slits, enough for up to nine people) to observe. Zolotaryov picks up his hidden KGB camera and keeps it around his neck for the duration.
Then one of the lights moves very near or even enters the tent at or near to the entrance. N.B. it’s common for ball lightning to pass through matter without leaving a trace.
Everyone very quickly exits the tent via cutting a slit at the back, there is no time to put on any footwear or extra clothes.
Now unable to return to the tent (more lights?) and at risk of exposure they decide to make for the cache of food and kit. But they get lost because (1) ball lightning (electro magnetic energy?) affects their compass?) or (2) the bl is moving down the slope towards the cache? A type of bl is classed as “rollers”. or (3) they’re just disorientated by the dark and the snow (one of the last photos show them to be in whiteout conditions). Anyway they take the wrong path a critical decision that costs them their lives and might have resulted in brawling later if there was a difference of opinion when they set off.
So they choose to camp next to a cedar that gives a good lookout to watch the lightshow back on the hill in order to make a return to the tent when it's safer as now they are not sure where the cache is located.
But the lights move down the hill towards them burning some of the tree tops....
Beyond this point no one knows the order of events but it seems that Doroshenko and Krivonischenko were the first to die. N.B. both had burns that are not easily explained from a small camp fire but perhaps more easily explained by electrical discharge.
E.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9QFU0u0L5U
Historical records state that it is a feature of aggressive ball lightning that it can injure or kill (by burning) some members of a group leaving others unharmed or just with burnt clothing it all depends on the discharge.
For the remaining seven either some or all moved to the ravine and four died due to another ball lightning exploding overhead with tremendous force. The remaining three where lucky enough to be distant enough from the blast not to be killed (n.b. Slobodin had a head fracture). Whatever, they realised that they could not shelter from the lights, their only remaining chance was to get off the mountain by returning to the tent and finding their boots and skis. Sadly weakened by cold and possibly the explosion they never made it. May they rest in peace.
Other thoughts – I don’t like the “murder by others” theory because imo it doesn’t fit the facts, no obvious lethal force, several of the party clearly died of hypothermia and clearly in at least two separate events, probably three. All the other injuries sustained by the party seem to be explainable by - brawling, climbing, collecting firewood, falling out of a tree, previous falls on the skiing trip (one had a bandage), that is all but one injury, Dubinina’s tongue (it’s my assumption the missing eyes can be explained by decomposition in the stream but possibly not?).
Now here it starts getting rather interesting. If you google “cattle mutilations” you will find there is a well documented phenomenon (hundreds of cases?) that includes specific types of head trauma (disappearance of eyes, tongue and some mouth tissue) that are quite similar to Dubinina’s injuries. It’s not only cattle that are affected but other mammalian species as well, including it seems humans, google “human mutilation brazil”. Now if we discount the possibility that this is due to aliens or even humans performing brutal surgical processes we’re left with an unknown natural process as the cause, an energy that removes organ tissue selectively and exits the body via it’s orifices cauterising tissue bloodlessly in the process.
Ivanov’s fireballs, ball lightning? Perhaps even an explanation for spontaneous combustion?
Also Dyatlov Pass is at a very similar latitude to Hessdalen where the “lights” phenomenon has been more closely observed so it would be my conjecture that the Dyatlov lights are created by the same forces. N.B. higher radiation levels have been found at Hessdalen in areas where sightings have occurred.
The ones in the tent rushed out after event to look for the missing 4, ignoring the clothes, scared, in panic, only to find them death by the ravine; attempted to make a funeral bed for them but failed, one by one, to the cold.
Here a permalink for a mini nuke explosion simulation near the position of the tent. The 15 psi blast radius would have been enough to blow them 1500 m away? Of course this don't explain other mismatched details, but... goes together with the glowing spheres saw by other people in that area...
http://meyerweb.com/eric/tools/gmap/hydesim.html?dll=61.76016,59.43208&yd=1&zm=13&op=156
The phenomena includes organ removal and animals being dropped from a height.
Murder.
It is the second attempt to write a comment...I think there was some trouble wit first.
In my opinion we must not be indifferent to what the Mansi community tells us. Something happens in those mountains area. Collected data witnesses, corpses state indicate the presence of a natural phenomenon linked to electricity that arises in this area. This electric phenomenon is a large-scale (different from the usual lightning; maybe ... similar to ball lightning or corona discharge) one, with a large transfer of electric charge between different ground areas through atmospheric layers. I believe that the nine were inside an electrical discharge in a large area (some plasma bullet). The theory can be verified by on-site measurements.
Great site.
Has it ever been theorised that the group was attempting to make a retreat from the tent (following 'the incident') back towards the food cache / storage house near the Auspia River (where they stored surplus food & supplies on January 31), but instead became totally disoriented and went down the wrong side of the slope instead?
Looking at the map it's doesn't seem to be a dissimilar distance to that from the tent to the cedar tree.
This could explain the following decisions:
a. to leave food, supplies and some clothing in the tent -as they could be replaced once they reached the cache.
b. to walk rather than run down the slope - if they have a plan to access food, shelter and clothing, they are perhaps calm and rational, not frantic and panicked.
c. why Zolotarev, Kolevatov, Dubinia, and Thibeaux-Brignolle decided to keep heading down the slope (maybe they thought the cache was just a bit further downhill).
d. it could even explain the possible fist fight between Dyatlov and Slobodin - perhaps they argued about whether they were going the right direction (admittedly this point is rather weak in support of this theory - an argument could have broken out in numerous circumstances)
All total conjecture, but the idea of an orderly retreat seems to fit with Igor Dyatlov's reputation for ingenuity and level headedness.
Obviously this theory hinges on what exactly they had cached, how much shelter the cache provided and how far away the cache site was from the tent.
Would love to know others' thoughts
Feel free to email me:
last-pistol-shot@hotmail.com
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsBIkhwCNVA
Was there a new TV show broadcasting, or do you mean "The Russian Yeti - The Killer Lives"
Maybe there is a possibility to have some scans from old newspaper articles etc. on this site.
However, theory noone has concluded just yet: 1)infrasound due to high winds/vortices makes leader THINK there is an avalanche (it doesnt matter how experienced they are, it is dark and even the possibility of avalnche could compel the order to run). 2) lack of light as it was evening and panic from possible avalanche results in non stop movement in one direction. The fairly better dressed group make it further before stopping, the others stop at the treeline and being freezing, decide to make a fire as quickly as possible; 3) for two (hypothermia sets in and clothes are removed due to burning sensation) and other three realize that the avalanche probably did not occur and it should be safer to return to tent and grab clothes before suffering same fate as the two hypothermic; 4) on the way they face howling winds and freeze to death before making it; 5) the other 4 that make it further unknowingly run into a ravine that maybhave been 25ft deep and suffer fractures and blunt force trauma as they fall; 6) being stuck there and frozen to death the elements (partial mummification) and wildlife result in missing tongue, lips etc; 7) the orange lights are in fact ufo (for argument sake we will accept the fact that there are ufo/aliens that visit us). However, if this is the case, then probability is that they visit our planet often and in different places at different times and as such, could simply have been a coincidence that their visiting this time happened to be when these 9 unfortunate souls were caught in a terrible tragedy