©NGO "INTERNET CENTER of Dyatlov tragedy", 2008. The text of the conversation "CENTER of civil investigation of the tragedy of Dyatlov group" (NAVIG, ALATAO), with Igor Aleksandrovich Dubinin (AID) regarding Dyatlov case 07 Aug 2008, Berezovskiy, Sverdlovsk region
NAVIG: If you go back in time, have you filed any complaints about the revision of the Case?
IAD: No, once I filed, I was refused.
NAVIG: Refused? Do you still have this paper? Or did you give it to Koskina?
IAD: Perhaps I may have given it away, I didn't keep my papers. But this is not this year, it was long time ago. Papers from Tanya I have. And the fact that now the answers came, I gave Koskina.
NAVIG: Those else, or who recently sent?
IAD: Yes, recently
NAVIG: In 59, how old were you?
NAVIG: Did you live here?
IAD: I lived in Sverdlovsk. I have only been here since the year 80.
NAVIG: What can you remember about the time when all this happened? What was the situation like?
IAD: I remember we just got an apartment. We lived in a communal flat, got a two-room apartment and moved. And literally they lived for about a week and Lucy went hiking. And I had a session, I studied at the technical school last year. We passed the session and also went 10-12 people to the a tourbase. We were organized, unlike Lucy. And also went on a hike. In other words, we were on one treck an they were on another. We finished somewhere in the last days of February, around the 25. And literally two days later I went to the pre-diploma practice in Leninogorsk, close to the border with China. We had a normal relationship, family. We didn’t really quarrel about anything. We had different interests with Lucy of course. She had her own circle... She certainly did not consider me a student, but I considered myself. She was studying 4th year at the institute, and I was last year in the technical school.
NAVIG: Did you leave at the end of February?
NAVIG: So you already knew about what happened?
IAD: No... Oh, not February, but January. Of course, at the end of January, how come. I knew nothing. I remember there was no interest in practicing there... and even more so there was one orphan with us. We went to work in the the mine. And had some practice on the diploma... Well, I earned money. I remember there were some letters sent, I felt from my parents that something wasn't right... But they didn’t tell me anything.
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NAVIG: Was this in February?
IAD: In February, yes. I even had my birthday there, I was 18 years old. My birthday is on April 14th. My practice was long.
NAVIG: And still you didn't know anything?
IAD: Nothing. And I earned a lot of money there. There was nothing to spend them on, I didn't need anything. I bought some things there, the brought a radio receiver "Tourist"... And so I arrived in Sverdlovsk, my parents met me at the station.
NAVIG: When was it?
IAD: I arrived probably ...
NAVIG: In April?
IAD: In April, around the the 20th.
NAVIG: They haven't been found yet?
IAD: Not found. Only the first (bodies) were found ...
NAVIG: Already buried...
IAD: Well, again, I did not know anything, it was they who only said to me at the train station... this is a misfortune... And then I remember the funeral in May...
NAVIG: And how did they bury the last four? Nowhere is this described. That is, how did it all happen?
IAD: May 11 buried. Why, because I remember there one came up to me and said "What are they all young". And Lucy has a birthday tomorrow, May 12, I remember ... Well, they buried ... they did everything to not bury them together.
NAVIG: And these four?
IAD: And these four.
NAVIG: They also did not want to bury them together, suggested in Ivdel ...
IAD: Yes, one, Krivonischenko, was buried in another cemetery ...
NAVIG: Well, he is from the first five.
IAD: Yes, these are buried here. But while they were searching for our people, another student died and was buried here.
NAVIG: That's for sure? Nikitin.
IAD: Yes, Nikitin. I certainly have nothing against ...
NAVIG: And he was buried separately?
IAD: Not. Also, as it were, continued the series.
NAVIG: No, I mean by the time of the funeral procession.
NAVIG: And the fact that there were already ready graves, yes, dug out?
IAD: Did not have. Only next to buried. Then, thank God, well, sorry...
NAVIG: Was there no hole yet?
IAD: Not. Ordinary graves stood for a long time. This is now UPI, recently it has done so. And so, well, ordinary, iron monuments were.
NAVIG: We have pictures of the old look. But there it was already fenced, in those pictures.
IAD: No, when they were buried, there was nothing yet. There are many graves there... four guys were buried, then Nikitin was buried here. Then, sorry for the tautology, thank God, we found ours, and they were at this place, and four more buried ours.
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IAD: (ed. note: this is regarding Zolotaryov) And when all this was organized, it was probably because of the number of people going, otherwise they could not have let them go. Well, they just took him. Well, she also didn't know him, was not familiar (with him). Well, considering that hikers are very outgoing... and in the photos, they are together, he gets along with everyone ... There is nothing like that.
NAVIG: You have not seen him there?
IAD: No, I have not seen anyone at all. Generally, not many came to Lucy. There was nowhere to come to. Well now, I live alone in such a house, come as much as you like. But back then it was impossible there. And even more so when she left, we just moved. The apartment is piled up, nothing is placed ... She didn't live in this new apartment ...
NAVIG: But from the trek she did not send anything, no telegrams? Something like "we are here heading there"?
IAD: No, what for?
NAVIG: Dyatlov sent.
IAD: Well, maybe he had to, they had control points there…
NAVIG: In the Sport Committee. But he sent a letter to his parents that he would come then, then and then. She didn't sent anything like that?
IAD: I wouldn't know... I left for Leninogorsk…
NAVIG: In general, you are not worried?
IAD: Yes. Well, I wrote letters there ... They bought a TV there - congratulations and everything else, but it wasn’t much.
NAVIG: And then what were the real versions? Or someone told you something?
IAD: Mom thought it was caused by a rocket. That's how we thought. And the most interesting thing is that with rockets, plural, and not with a rocket. Although we did not consider ourselves to be the at fault, for example, this case…
NAVIG: Why exactly rocket? There were no evidnce, where did this version come from??
IAD: In those days, the were test... Obviously, they couldn't hide everything, and we knew ... The satellite was already launched at that time. In our organization ... we have a radio ... successful launches were very rare, often unsuccessful. And now I don’t remember when was it that the tragedy with Nedelin happened. So all this makes you thinking...
NAVIG: There were no traces on the mountain of a rocket falling or explosions. Or maybe it was the testing of weapons, vacuum, for example ... That is, an aboveground explosion.
IAD: It can be anything.
NAVIG: And here were traces of radioactivity on clothes. Beta particles. Allegedly this was due to Kyshtym emissions. There was a contaminated sweater. So did they take the same clothes? (ed. note - Kyshtym Nuclear Disaster September 29, 1957 in Chelyabinsk-40, a thermal explosion that caused a radioactive release was similar to that to a small atomic bomb)
IAD:There is something connected to water …
NAVIG: And Lucy, I think, her leg was wrapped in piece of Krivonischenko's sweater.
IAD: And not Kolevatov's?
NAVIG: Well, I do not remember exactly. They cut off the clothes from those who died at the cedar to warm up. And on this clothing were found traces of radioactivity. And when was Kyshtym's disaster? Was it two years before that?
IAD: Of course, we knew little about the emissions, although he seemed to be passing along Sverdlovsk. Everyone lived very well ... We even had anthrax near Sverdlovsk. It was not a rumor. I was stunned. ... We realized what area we live in.
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NAVIG: About the radioactivity ... If they had radioactivity, then it is obvious that this man-made accident was associated with radioactive objects. But it was not discovered at all.
IAD: Then everything would be covered with it... It’s not clear, of course.
NAVIG: Either there was radioactivity in the creek. The main thing - the expertise did not name the elements of radioactivity. That is, they simply measured it, but did not name the elements ... That is, that such a rumor was only that it was a rocket weapon?
IAD: Well, it's easier for us to say that this is some kind of accident. The last thing I want is that these people cleaned everything, covered their tracks and everything else.
NAVIG: Well, even if a rocket fell, they would have removed the rocket but the traces of the fall will be evident... No trail of the rocket was found there ...
IAD: There was something found there. A metal ring or something else ...
NAVIG: This was allegedly from C-200 complex. A complex C-200 was released later.
IAD: It is around that time. 50 years is a long time. And then, when they searched, I read, search participants, guys from UPI, they were told to search only here, not to go there in any case.
NAVIG: TAU made a film in which they were not allowed to go, and where they went, there were people in sheepskin coats and with pistols. There were representatives of the KGB. (ed. Akselrod)
IAD: I also watched this movie, they gave it to me ...
NAVIG: And did they shoot you (in the movie)?
NAVIG: Well, now, he, too, says that he was hindered from going somewhere. That there were supposedly somewhere on the slope there bare places... Well, maybe they were picked up and collected later, that is, this local area was probed, found, and then the pass was closed. At 5 years, or at 3, was closed for hiking.
IAD: Well, yes, they have prepared some for the search, but rest they didn't had the time...
NAVIG: And your parents, they asked for admission to the case, to see it? Here with a legal purpose? The fact is that the Case is hidden in a secret archive for 25 years. And so no one was allowed to it.
IAD: No, I don't remember anything about it. But my father died quite early. He died in 1967, he was 64 years old. Well, of course, all this affected his life.
NAVIG: And he did not try to reopen the case? Or did he agree with the results?
IAD: Well, it's like ... Well, it was all classified and everything else, right? Do not forget what time they lived there, in Stalin's time: it was said, done. So there is nothing to do about it. Secret - it means everything. No one will declassify it for you.
NAVIG:Wes there any certain information that the case was classified? Has anyone approached, say, the prosecutor?
IAD: Someone told me that the case was declassified, but you still need admission. So it was same as being classified.
NAVIG: Then, yes?
IAD: No, it was sometime 40 years after their death already. I was just ... people got acquainted with this case. Here ... (shows documents?) ... Well, I don’t know, I keep it, but for whom do I keep it?... There were no followers. What can I say?... And then, Sheremet's wife, Anna Matveeva, she wrote a book, I think, quite good, she did not achieve anything. She has these 20 items (ed. note: Case files) and included all theories insisting on any of them. At that time, father had already died, in my opinion, or maybe not yet, another book was written, “Hike .... some category” ...
IAD: Yes, Yarovoy.
NAVIG: "Highest category of difficulty".
IAD: Yes. Mom was mad about this book.... because thsi is not whta happened. Well, everything is fine there, all the guys seem to be alive there and everything ends well there... She did not like this book.
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NAVIG: The fact is that he had several options. The first option he did not seem allowed to print ...
IAD: I said to my mother that he printed what he was ordered. He was ordered, he is a journalist, he had to write what they gave him and they say that he wasn't happy about that.
NAVIG: Gushchin also wrote a booklet "The price of state secrets - nine lives." Did you read it?
IAD: No First time I hear.
NAVIG: Not? Here, this is for you. He is a journalist of the Regional newspaper.
IAD: And, well, it may be referred to as the author, he is known. I did not read the book, but I heard the name.
NAVIG: Yury Konstantinovich Kuntsevich has it. She is on the Internet. Do you go online?
IAD: No, I have a computer, but ...
NAVIG: After the investigation ended did they return belongings? Anything?
IAD: I remember that Lyucine backpack... But did she went out with it I cann't say. They gave us notebooks...
NAVIG: Where are they? Do you have them?
IAD: I don't remember now. I know that I gave a whole box of Lyucine hikeing photographs to either Kuntsevich or Koskin. They were two, one of them took them.
NAVIG: Well, this is not from this trek. Anthing from this particular expedition?
IAD: There were photos from this trek.
NAVIG: And how did they get to you? From this hike. That is, from the films they made?
IAD: I do not know. Yes, from these films.
NAVIG: And from this expedition, did they give you too?
IAD: Here's something in my opinion ... I must read. Here, this is probably the last trip. 28th of February..
IAD: Oh, so this is what it is. This book somehow got to us. (ed. note: video skip)
IAD: And this is the memory of the nine dead students, someone wrote .... (ed. note: verse-song)
NAVIG: Well, someone visited you, right? Books have given, and what else?
IAD: What else is there? ... I do not remember, they gave it to my father.
NAVIG: They had to return you some items. Belongings... There were no items?
NAVIG: Clothing? No, I mean what they were found in. The inventory is not accurate. For some reason, the investigation did not make an inventory.
IAD: No, from what they went there, in my opinion, we received nothing.
NAVIG: This is what I am talking about. Because we think that it was hidden on purpose, that it was impossible to guess what the reason was. Why did they behave this way? Strange.
IAD: According to one of the theories a hull of a rocket was rolling down the slope. The tent was in its way and those who were at the very end were hurt. Kolya’s camera seemed to have crashed into him, as if he was lying on a it ... Luce got ... She sort of got it, but ...
NAVIG: No, I think this theory is no good, because they walked from the tent, there were footprints. Otherwise they would have been dragged.
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IAD: In another theory I read that Lucy came out of the tent and saw something observed there ... Who saw all this, I have no idea.
NAVIG: Yes, no one saw, of course.
IAD: Yes, but I also read this version.
NAVIG: ....Who made the den is not clear. Because the picture shows that the trunks were of such diameter, cut down obliquely. The knife they had couldn't have done that. That is, either it was made earlier, this den, by Mansi for example, or someone was hiding there before them, and they just used it. But for some reason they were not in the den, but 5 meters away from it? Also not clear. No one can tie together all the circumstances. We sent a request to Patrushev, the director of the FSS (Federal Security Service), about whether there are records in the Dyatlov case archive related to secret materials. But the answer came that there is nothing. The fact is that the case may be the under a completely different name. About a rocket, for example, about a technological catastrophe, and Dyatlov group just could indirectly find themselves there.
IAD: Why should they reveal it all? So they lived well, no one still knows the truth. They may even like that there are 50 theories - one can say anything. And why should they disclose it anything? This is probably all connected with something that now still exists. And I don't have high hopes. I sign the papers and everything, I don’t feel sorry for myself, but I think that nothing will come of it.
NAVIG: We want to solve all this by legal means, to make the state work.
IAD: And where is our legal service?
NAVIG: No matter what, laws still exist. So with this method we can set everything in motion.
IAD: As they lived by the rules, so they live. For them, laws never existed. I just believe in this a little. Even take civilians ... Do the courts still operate? As you look at "Man and the Law", I'm sorry, I want to start shooting. Nothing works literally. Well, it's okay for the little things. It is clear that they will not reveal anything if the interest of the state is involved. There is a state here.
NAVIG: Enough time has passed, what's the secret? There is simply material compensation to relatives. If the state is guilty, then it should apologize in the end. Anyway, it will be revealed at some point.
IAD: Millions of repressed ... Who apologized? So this is what is going to happen to this case.
NAVIG: They open cases. Now secret documents on the repressed are revealed.
IAD: I'm not saying that you should not fight, I'm just saying that
NAVIG: We just want to know, to persue the truth.
NAVIG: Ivanov wrote in a manuscript that he knew the reason, but he hid it in the Resolution. This is already the basis for the appeal to the Resolution to close the case. And if we cancel the Resolution, then they should initiate a new criminal case. I now think that....
IAD: Well, I raised a question in order to initiate a case ... They answered there that ...
NAVIG: This is when you got the answer that you sent to see the case?
IAD: I do not remember now. About two or three years ago. They are like that .. if said something about term, that is getting to an end.
NAVIG: Statute of limitations?
IAD: Yes, and whether to institute proceedings.
NAVIG: Yes you must!
IAD: But how much time has passed.
NAVIG: They still institute proceedings about the tzar.
IAD: And nothing is done.
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NAVIG: Found two more remains and opened a criminal case.
IAD: And who will file a criminal case?
NAVIG: We do not need anyone to submit. We even discovered the truth.
IAD: There the truth is more or less revealed...
NAVIG: Dyatlov case is no less important than the death of the royal family, because it refers to the rank of national tragedies. The truth was hidden from the people.
IAD: I still live with the belief that everything that happened was an accident.
NAVIG: Not intentional, but murder.
IAD: Well yes. Not intentional. That is, investigate, do not investigate - you will not return the guys.
NAVIG: That is, we are now starting work in legal terms. And when there is already a clue, then we will hire some Moscow lawyer to file a case.
IAD: If we start a new investigation there will still be FSS representatives involved.
NAVIG: And we need to ensure that the secret case of the KGB is provided, where the reasons are stated.
IAD: To this they will calmly say: we have no case, that's all. And you will not prove anything.
NAVIG: Let them give an official statement.
IAD: You have to understand, I'm not that against it, I am just looking form th eother side. This is how they will declare. I just put myself in their place.
NAVIG: We will require a document signed by the director of the FSS. Why would he lie?
IAD: And what's the point of telling the truth?
NAVIG: He must actually tell the truth. According to law. And if you tells a lie, the President will expel him ...
IAD: (ed. note: he is laughing)
NAVIG: Well, there is a folder marked “top secret”. He is now kept in the prosecutor's office of the Sverdlovsk region. When I wrote a complaint on your behalf
IAD: They say there is nothing left...
NAVIG: This is from the case. Nobody knows where the folder marked Top Secret folder is stored. This is why you will need to familiarize yourself with it. If they give you permission. And no one knows what's in it.
IAD: I think that if even if I get permission they will still give me that same case file.
NAVIG: There is a folder with the Case, then an album with photos and a folder stamped “Top Secret”. But I think that they will give you permission, i.e. any citizen can report a crime to law enforcement. The Center (of Dyatlov tragedy) will prepare a statement for commission of a crime based on Ivanov’s resolution. The resolution was falsified, it is not natural forces. And not natural means any forces of an artificial nature. Well, the application is still - send Ivanov's article. It will be a long case. While the Attorney General will answer
IAD: Not answered yet...
NAVIG: They must answer. The prosecutor's office is obliged to monitor the execution of the law.
IAD: A negative answer is also an answer..
NAVIG: I also wanted you to give the sanctions to the Center to the Civil Investigation Center that we have.
End of recording.
We thanked Igor Aleksandrovich for his agreement and conversation.